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MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call this session to order. The time is now 2:52 p.m. We have the Minister of Health Promotion and Protection, and we will turn to the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Preston.
MR. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions to ask - I don't have a lot of time left here - but I want to ask about the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs in Sydney, and first of all I would like to know why you chose the location you did for the particular office.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Health Promotion and Protection.
HON. BARRY BARNET: As I answered in an earlier question, one of the things that we wanted to do was have the office accessible to the greatest number of people we possibly could; we recognized the fact that there were larger communities of African Nova Scotians that had a population base that would be probably best served with a more central location.
We went out to tender through the Department of Transportation and Public Works. We identified a fairly wide area where potential vendors could submit a tender on behalf of their company, and at the end of the day only one tender actually was submitted. We chose that particular tender. The idea was to provide the greatest level of service to a variety of communities, to be in a central location. As well, we also believe that it is important for the office to be close to other government offices, so that when individuals or groups come and present at the office we have some reasonable access to other government services so we can work in a more timely manner with the individual group.
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MR. BARNET: I did table it here Friday.
MR. COLWELL: Okay. I missed that part. Sorry about that. I may be asking . . .
MR. BARNET: Again, the process of acquiring leased space wasn't our department, it was the Department of Transportation and Public Works. They actually do the work of identifying the actual square footage required, based on a manual that has been established for government for a number of years. As well, they looked at the type of space that would be suitable, they developed a tender document, went out to the marketplace, advertised it in the local media. One proposal came forward and that proposal was in the downtown Sydney area, which is still central to the community served, including Glace Bay, Whitney Pier and others. In any case, no matter where it was that we chose the location, there are some people who would be close and there are other people who would have to drive a distance. So we recognized that right from the very beginning, that you couldn't locate the office in one community and not have at least somebody who would have to find transportation to get to that office - much the same as our Halifax office.
MR. COLWELL: There are some general questions I'm going to ask - in the Halifax office, how many inquiries do you handle in a year now?
MR. BARNET: How many inquiries?
MR. COLWELL: Yes.
MR. BARNET: One of the things that we have identified in our business plan is that we want to set up and establish a proper tracking plan. We don't have the exact numbers, but it is in the range of 1,500 inquiries per month at our Halifax office. You have to consider that in some cases we have the same people inquiring over and over again and some of them may simply be follow-up, but around 1,500 per month.
MR. COLWELL: Geographically, where do they come from in the province?
MR. BARNET: Everywhere. The calls to our Halifax office come from every county in the province - I think it is safe to say that probably every geographic region of the province.
MR. COLWELL: I know the office does some really good work in my community and I want to thank them for doing that work as well. There are a lot of services, I think, that they have utilizied, and information they received which has been very, very helpful. What is the complement of staff in the office now, has it increased since it was initially opened?
MR. BARNET: Oh, yes. Initially the staff consisted of one person, and we went from one to an office of six, and then the Cape Breton office is three, so our total is five plus three,
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plus one interim position, so there are eight FTEs and then an interim position, which makes nine.
MR. COLWELL: That's good. Now what interaction do they have with the Black Cultural Centre at this point?
MR. BARNET: We actually had, and have, a great deal of dialogue with the Black Cultural Centre, primarily on an issue-by-issue basis. As you are aware, there have been many meetings between ourselves and the centre to help facilitate, for example, tenants. We were able to identify an opportunity for some revenue for the Black Cultural Centre by providing them with a potential tenant of which now I believe, and understand, they occupy space and provide some valuable revenue for the centre. We have assisted them with business planning processes, and we have provided support through other departments to help them cover off some of their capital concerns they had, including replacing the roof, some flooring and some other items they needed to help them progress and move forward.
My understanding would be that probably a week doesn't go by where there isn't interaction with the Black Cultural Centre and/or its board of directors and/or Dr. Bishop. I think it's primarily because of the nature of the work and the business that they do and what we do as an office for the Province of Nova Scotia - we help them interact with other agencies and other departments, so it's probably one of our busiest groups in terms of contacts with the office.
[3:00 p.m.]
MR. COLWELL: That's good, and I just wanted to get that on the record because I know your staff have been working very hard in that regard and it's important. As you know, I'm always after funding for the Black Cultural Centre, some guaranteed funding for them long-term so they can protect the rich heritage and history of the African Nova Scotians in this province. I've worked with your department, and I'm pleased to hear that. What is your plan to work with the Black Cultural Centre - are there any specific things that you have in mind in the future for either displays or any historical things that might be of interest from your department?
MR. BARNET: From a business process point of view, you know we continue to provide them advice and support, particularly around the governance, and board support. As far as initiatives at the centre itself, we've had a number of initiatives over the past year that we've worked together on, one of which was the slave ship, Amistad - and it's my understanding that it will be returning to Halifax again in the summer, and we expect there will likely be some partnership arrangement there. But in addition to that we've also been working with them with respect to the acquisition of war medals from the Construction Battalion. So it really is an ongoing relationship and probably will always be, and although
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we aren't the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage we work closely with them and there is that collaboration between departments to support that centre.
MR. COLWELL: On the issue of the war medals, is there any money made available to purchase that one particular one that, unfortunately, drew so much attention and put the price of it up?
MR. BARNET: Well, in fact, ironically enough, as an avid eBayer, I was aware of it before any public attention and contemplated actually acquiring it myself personally and donating it to the centre, but within two weeks - I should say two days of the announcement in the paper, the price went from $167, at the point that I left for Whitehorse - it was well over $1,000. My expectation was it was going to go much higher. I don't know what it ended up selling for, but I do believe there is some work trying to see if that particular medal can be secured and held in the collection.
I do know that there are other medals as well. Probably the most significant medal that has been on display at the Black Cultural Centre is the Victoria Cross. It's certainly one of those things that the Province of Nova Scotia saw and recognized the value of that Victoria Cross a decade or more ago and acquired it from another jurisdiction by trading a significant Victoria Cross medal, and you know from my perspective we should do what we can to protect these things.
I do, as well, support initiatives to move forward with rules that would prevent the sale of these medals, especially the ones with historical significance. I know there is some consideration in the Government of Canada, it may be a private member's bill, but I know that I've heard in the past that there is consideration of passing national legislation to protect these medals and prevent them from being sold.
MR. COLWELL: I think that's really good and I think that should be a national law whether they have historic significance or not, because they're very important to the families. Although at the time they get rid of them they may not think they're valuable, they are of significant value. The Victoria Cross, by the way, is not at the Black Cultural Centre. The Black Cultural Centre doesn't have any facilities there to maintain it, it's too valuable. So they have, I wouldn't say a copy but a mock-up of it on the site.
MR. BARNET: It is a replica. The original Victoria Cross actually gets displayed very seldom. It has been displayed at the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic on a couple of occasions. Some estimate that medal to be worth over $1 million.
The uniqueness of William Hall receiving the Victoria Cross enhances the rarity and scarceness of that medal for a number of reasons, one of which was he was not a British citizen, but in addition to that he was an African Canadian, and in addition to that he was a naval recipient of the Victoria Cross. The medal is actually issued for bravery and it's
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difficult for a naval person to receive that because normally it's a team of people in a mission of bravery, in a naval position, so there aren't very many naval Victoria Crosses, but there are even fewer non-British citizens, and even fewer people of African decent, which makes that probably one of if not the rarest Victoria Cross.
MR. COLWELL: It's the first one, from what I understand, ever given to a Canadian.
MR. BARNET: It may very well be.
MR. COLWELL: That gives it even more significance. Are there any plans to help the Black Cultural Centre get the facilities in place so they can store and display artifacts of that value because I understand they have many more artifacts that are probably close to the value of that, which they just simply can't display?
MR. BARNET: They would have to initiate it. I guess what we would want to do is make sure that we're not duplicating what we may already have, and certainly I know historians are very concerned about the access to these and the security of these types of artifacts and displays - so it would have to be something that would be carefully considered. As you say, we want to remove the risk associated with the display. So it's one of those things that I guess if they brought it forward there would have to be some analysis, the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage and with the museum system itself. I don't think they've ever asked for it, to be honest.
MR. COLWELL: Probably didn't ask because I think it's probably a very expensive set-up to do this and they probably thought, with their ongoing operational costs and the limited funding they've been getting, it was beyond anything that they thought they could achieve, so they probably never asked, that would be my guess. It's unfortunate because these do have a rather important significance to African Nova Scotians and to all of us in Nova Scotia. So it's too bad that we couldn't have those very valuable artifacts on display there, from time to time as the display would warrant . . .
MR. BARNET: Pardon me, just if I can add - at one time I encouraged the Cultural Centre and the museum to move William Hall's Victoria Cross medal around the province, to display it here in Province House and to have it tour so that people could actually see it. These things are great. They're very valuable and they're nice to have as part of a collection, but if no one can see it, to me it's almost pointless. I do know that people get nervous when you start doing that kind of stuff, and I understand why, but still I think there's some value in actually having some kind of travelling display.
I've actually spoken to Dr. Bishop about many of the artifacts that exist at the Black Cultural Centre and whether or not there's some opportunity in the future to have a travelling display so that at least a segment of the artifacts can be taken to communities - what I expressed to him is why wouldn't we take the centre to the communities rather than have the
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communities always come to the centre, and I think at some point in time they may look at something like that, but right now they have a lot on their plate and I understand it's not high on their priority list right now - ensuring they have an efficient and well-run operation is their number one priority.
MR. COLWELL: Yes, and enough money to do it with - that's the key. They've got a very efficient, very well-run operation, but again if they don't have sufficient funding it's pretty difficult to do the important work. I really like the idea of a travelling display, but until the situation there improves and gets some long-term guaranteed funding for the centre, I can't ever see that happening. Is your government looking at that?
MR. BARNET: That would be Tourism, Culture and Heritage - and they do receive a significant amount of money, an overwhelming percentage of their budget actually comes from Tourism, Culture and Heritage. I don't remember the amount, I think it's a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, it may be even more than that (Interruption) It's around $200,000.
MR. COLWELL: If my memory serves me right - your staff can correct me on this if I'm wrong - but it's something like $60,000 a year that they used to get several years ago on a regular basis.
MR. BARNET: I don't know if that's the case.
MR. COLWELL: That's the information I have.
MR. BARNET: I don't have that information.
MR. COLWELL: I wonder if you could get me a copy of the funding levels of the provincial government for the last 10 years, year by year?
MR. BARNET: I could, but probably you'd be better off to ask the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage. That's his department so he would be the one - and I don't think he has presented here.
MR. COLWELL: Okay. In your Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, did you do anything with Education for individuals who may not have had an opportunity to get an education in the past?
MR. BARNET: Sorry, could you repeat that again?
MR. COLWELL: Have you ever done anything in your department with individuals in the Black community who may not have had an opportunity to get an education in the past?
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MR. BARNET: We actually work very closely with the Department of Education; in fact our CEO came from the Department of Education and he has maintained a great relationship with the African Canadian Services Division at the Department of Education. Yes, there are a number of initiatives and I can tell you I do know we have, as an office, assisted with a variety of different programs and services to help facilitate and help bring things together, particularly with respect to education. It has been a big piece of the work that we've done.
MR. COLWELL: Is there a program for older individuals to access education if they want to finish their high school or go on to trades training or university?
MR. BARNET: I believe there is, but it doesn't rest within our department, it would rest within the Department of Education. Any initiative that we would be asked to participate in, we would work closely with them. I just don't have the exact name of the program that's available, but I do know that there are programs through the Department of Education that are available to assist in those areas.
MR. COLWELL: Yes, I realize it is with the Department of Education, but I think it would be the responsibility of your department to initiate some of these things - considering the history, some of the individuals not being able to pursue an education, especially older individuals in the community, that there would be something that would be maybe spearheaded by your department to ensure that people have an opportunity.
MR. BARNET: Well, other than we don't want to become a mini-Department of Education and part of our work does cross nearly every single government department, but we are involved in a way where we provide them with feedback and advice and support when we can. We have assisted with programs and, as an example, we work with the Education Department's African Canadian Services Division and the Nova Scotia Community College to help assist in creation of a transition year program for African Nova Scotians.
This started as a pilot program in the Fall of 2006 and has been effective. We recognize what our role is and we'll continue to do that and we'll continue to work with the government departments, like Education, to help. I guess what we don't want to do is set up a division of what it is that we do dedicated specifically to a department when somebody else is already doing it. We'd just as soon take advantage of the programs and the opportunities that are there, and the expertise where it sits within any government department, not just Education - it could be Community Services, or Health, or Health Promotion and Protection, or whichever government department an issue might arise from.
MR. COLWELL: I understand all that, and that's the way it should be done, but really what I'm asking is are there any particular initiatives identifying some of the problems that have been in the community in the past, that you may look at new initiatives, that you might encourage the Department of Education, or whatever the organization might be, to move
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forward to help people in the community to better their overall education, and opportunities for better paying jobs?
[3:15 p.m.]
MR. BARNET: Absolutely, and the program I spoke about is one of them. Imhotep's Legacy is another one, where we assisted the Department of Education with a science and mathematics program. We also assisted with the Positive Parenting workshop at the Department of Education, so it is what we do - it is just that we don't have a specific budget line for our education programs, we simply work with them.
I just mentioned three excellent examples where we have supported them with some funding, advice, and assistance in actually developing these three particular initiatives to support and enhance the services that exist right now. I like to describe our department as a facilitator and a collaborator with other government departments. We recognize the fact that there are only nine of us - up until a couple of weeks ago there were only six of us - but we rely on the resources of other government departments to ensure that the work that is necessary gets done.
With respect to Education, we have a very, very close relationship. I would give a great deal of credit to our CEO, who comes with an education background. We have worked very closely with communities, and others, to ensure that when people bring concerns and issues to us, we're able to get them addressed. There are three very fine examples where there are new programs now, one of which is in a pilot stage, but the other two, which we expect will continue on, have been put in place since our office has been established as a result of the work that we've done - so the answer to your question is yes.
MR. COLWELL: By the way, I just want to put on the record, too, that I am very pleased with the staff you have in your department. We've made some inquiries through our office and there has always been a very positive response and I think they're doing a great job.
Would it be possible to get a list of all the different things, the programs that you're initiating towards Education or working with Education, so we can have that information?
MR. BARNET: Yes, we could get that for you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have one minute left.
MR. COLWELL: Also, maybe if your department could as well - I don't know if they've done this yet - come up with a list of the services you offer at the present time, so we could have that as well? I don't know if you've fine-tuned it enough yet because I know you are a new department and it takes time to sort of feel your way around.
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MR. BARNET: We can get you that, in fact most of it exists in our brochures and our newsletters and our business plan. What I think I will do is I will get you a copy of our business plan, our most recent brochure and our newsletters, and that should cover what you've asked for, I think.
Am I getting signalled here?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time has elapsed. My understanding is there will be no further questions, so if you have your resolutions to read.
Resolution E15 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $8,184,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Communications Nova Scotia, pursuant to the Estimate.
Resolution E17 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $28,012,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Executive Council, pursuant to the Estimate of African Nova Scotian Affairs.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E12 stand?
Resolution E12 stands.
Shall Resolutions E15 and E17 carry?
The resolutions are carried.
We will recess for five minutes and then begin with the Department of Environment and Labour.
[3:20 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[3:28 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We will resume the Estimates of the Department of Environment and Labour. We welcome back the Minister of Environment and Labour.
The honourable member for Halifax Needham.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, good afternoon, Mr. Minister and welcome to the staff of the Department of Environment and Labour. It's my pleasure to have the opportunity to raise with you a variety of issues that are pressing for working people in the Province of Nova Scotia.
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I want to start, Mr. Minister, by saying that to be perfectly frank I was very disappointed, as the NDP Labour Critic, in the Budget Address from the Finance Minister where he quite candidly talked about how budgets are about choices that reflect the priorities of government. Not once in that entire Budget Address was there mention made of workers in the Province of Nova Scotia. There certainly was no mention made and there are no initiatives that I could find in his address or looking in the budget documents that would indicate any new initiatives on the part of your department that is responsible for the Labour portfolio.
When I think about this and I have also looked fairly closely at the numbers in the budget and I see that it's a "steady as she goes" kind of budget. It would seem to me that the estimates, the forecast for next year, is essentially the expenditures for the department in the fiscal year we've just finished and the year before that, with no new initiatives. I think this is very disappointing and I'll tell you why I think this is disappointing and I will tell you the range of things that we might have expected to see in this budget that we think could have been choices that could have been important choices and would reflect a different set of priorities.
Your department is a very important department, it may not be the largest department of government, but it is extremely important because literally thousands of Nova Scotian workers, women and men, new workers and experienced workers, young workers and old workers, part-time workers and full-time workers, skilled workers and unskilled workers, rely very heavily for their employment rights and the defining of those rights and the enforcement of those rights through your department pursuant to the Labour Standards Code of this province.
The majority of workers, as you're well aware, are in fact workers for whom the Labour Standards Code is the primary piece of governance, law or legislation. I would assume that close to 70, in fact perhaps slightly more than 70 per cent of the workforce in the Province of Nova Scotia is governed by the Labour Standards Code, whether a person works in a small business or a medium sized business or a large business, where there is no collective agreement.
I'm aware, as most of us are, that many employers have their own policies and their own codified set of employment practices. In many cases those policies exceed the minimum standards that are required by the Labour Standards Code, they pay wages that are higher than minimum wage, they provide more statutory holidays than are provided for in the code, they provide greater vacation time than what is provided for in the code. Often, I think what may not be provided for in some of these codified policies are provisions with respect to suspension and termination.
My experience is not extensive in the field of labour relations or labour standards, but to the extent that I've done any work or research in this area, I'm aware that often that's
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where the rubber meets the road for a lot of employees, it's when they get into those situations of conflict in a workplace where they disagree with a disciplinary action that may mean a suspension or in fact a termination of their employment. It strikes me that the Labour Standards Code in the Province of Nova Scotia is one that has not been sort of systematically reviewed and reformed for quite a considerable period of time.
I know that the minister has done some things and may be contemplating tinkering with some aspects of labour standards with respect to lunch breaks, for example, legislating lunch breaks. I have to say that the kind of timidness in which you've moved with respect to this part of your portfolio is disappointing, given that this isn't exactly the way you've moved with respect to let's say, the environment. One might have hoped that the willingness that you've demonstrated to act on environmental concerns would have been reflected more adequately in your approach to labour standards.
I know that there was an announcement not so long ago that your department was undertaking a consultation with the public, probably workers, employers and any other members of the public who cared to share their views on the efficacy of instituting legislative lunch breaks. I welcome on the one hand that initiative but on the other hand I wonder why in the world do we have to go out and consult about something like this? The Public Service Commission in the Province of Nova Scotia has an initiative within the Public Service encouraging civil servants in the province to take some time away from their desks during the day to have a lunch break, to walk around the block and to get up and away from their desks.
We all know that this is a very healthy and important feature of maintaining good health and probably some perspective with respect to work. I'd be very surprised if there aren't workplace studies some place that tell us that that kind of approach would improve productivity in workplaces. While it is an initiative that on the one hand, as I said, we can support, it's disappointing that the steps are so timid.
It is surprising actually to me the number of e-mails I have had as a result of that initiative from members of the workforce who are actually very surprised that we don't already have such provisions in our Labour Standards Code in the province. People who sent me e-mails or sent notes expressed some outrage, I guess I would say, that we don't have these kinds of protections and provisions which in many other places certainly exist and people sort of take for granted that these provisions exist. Certainly, this is one example I think of an area where we were hoping to see an initiative that would demonstrate greater vision, a higher priority for working people.
I think there is another aspect of labour standards that I would like to speak to and that comes out of my own experience, not recent experience because recent experience is here at this Legislature for the past nine years. Before I was elected, as you probably know, I worked as a social worker and was involved in a piece of research with a group of faculty
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over at Dalhousie University in the Economics Department as well as the School of Social Work and in the business school. The research that we were doing was looking at the restructuring of the labour market in Nova Scotia and what the implication of that restructuring was, particularly for workers who were vulnerable to restructuring, workers who didn't necessarily have high educational attainment or very specialized training and skills. That story was really quite a disturbing story and a very eye-opening story.
We published a book called Vanishing Jobs: Canada's Changing Workplaces as a result of that research and I want to tell you about one of the case studies we did that I think made the most impact on me and certainly gave me the commitment to seeing a modernized Labour Standards Code in the Province of Nova Scotia. We did case studies on a whole variety of industries but one of the case studies we did was on the Hudson's Bay Company which sadly doesn't exist anymore, having been sold now to some big American retail conglomerate.
We met with the manager of human relations at The Bay on Mumford Road and she told us of the scenario that she had been involved in where there were in excess of 300 workers working at The Bay. This would have been back in probably the early 1990s. The directive had come down from their head office in Toronto to her, as their human resources manager, that they were embarking on the restructuring of their stores and she was given a list of employees that she was to call in and give pink slips to, to essentially lay off. She had to lay off, out of the 300-plus staff, she laid off everybody but 23 people all at one time. This is back in the early 1990s. So they were left with a core group of full-time workers, around 23 workers out of the 300-plus.
Then she hired back a group of 18 workers and they were hired to work something like 24 hours a week on average. The rest of the employees were offered a maximum of 15 hours a week. The reason for this was that the workers who were offered a maximum of 15 hours a week were then no longer subject to payroll taxes on the part of the company. So the company didn't have to pay into EI, they didn't have to pay into CPP and so on. This was happening throughout the retail sector in particular at that time. The Bay was one of the earlier employers, certainly in the metro area, that went this route but shortly after that, the same could be seen with Atlantic Superstore, Sobeys and so on.
So the thing about this is, of course, that the labour market has changed quite a bit and there is a great deal of part-time work that has been created in this way by taking full-time work and transforming it into the kind of Mcjobs that we see, but our Labour Standards Code has never addressed that. It continues to treat part-time work as if it's the kind of casual employment of people who don't have a strong labour market attachment, except, of course, these folks have a very strong labour market attachment. This is often the work they do in the various communities that they live in.
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[3:45 p.m.]
So, this is a point of concern, that we don't see the vision of the government to make choices to address the reality of those workers who have been significantly impacted and, quite often disadvantaged in a restructuring of the labour force. I noticed that the mission of the Department of Environment and Labour, as outlined in the budget documents, talks about employment rights and the protection of people in the workplace. So this is something I wanted to say to you when I had an opportunity here during the debate, that it is long overdue that we modernize the Labour Standards Code through a process of great public consultation with employers, with workers, with people who do research in this area and who keep track of labour market changes and trends. I think that in the long run we could provide a much better working environment and also an environment that would help us retain our young people and would see higher levels of productivity in our workplaces. So certainly this is something I wanted to raise with you.
Now, the other aspect of this I think is looking at how we define some of the other management rights in the work environment. I know that we can't ask questions about the mandatory retirement provisions that have been introduced pursuant to the bill that's on the floor, but if we can introduce those kinds of changes then I think we can introduce changes that take into consideration the problems that workers are experiencing in workplaces around violence and bullying, for example.
I want to tell the minister that not so long ago I had a woman come to my office with quite a large file of documents around disciplinary action that has been occurring, letters of reprimand, suspension, and what have you over a long period of time - close to a 10-year period of time in her workplace. The woman is a woman of colour. She's an African Nova Scotian woman and she feels very strongly that the kinds of harassment that she has been subjected to has a racial or racist base and that may very well be the case, but in the course of talking to her and talking to other people who are familiar with her workplace, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that there are people who aren't necessarily of African Nova Scotian descent who are also being harassed or intimidated by these letters of reprimand and what have you.
Now, the Human Rights process is a very lengthy process, as you know, and in the last little while we've seen particularly women who have been fired from their employment when they've become pregnant, take their cases before the Human Rights Commission and four or five years later - four or five years later - a decision is rendered. This, to me, is a travesty. On the one hand, it's a good thing that they have a place to go to pursue a claim, but why on Earth would we make that the process for people to have to go through? There have to be provisions within the Department of Labour that would be more proactive to assist people - most people do not have the ability, just the personal stamina, it takes to withstand that kind of a process.
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I'm certainly not suggesting that we eliminate the Human Rights Commission because it's there for a reason and it needs to do that, but it seems to me that we need to put in some greater protections for these workers when they get into this situation, so that there is a process in place that would provide a fair remedy in a much shorter time frame.
These are issues that I think about and that pertain to improvements in labour standards, and the fact that we did not see any reference in the budget to improving labour standards for 70 per cent of the workers in the province is discouraging. I'm aware that your department has quite an eclectic mandate, with responsibility for more than labour standards. There are at least three other issues I want to take up while I have the chance to do that - and I'm pleased to see you busily taking notes so that you can keep track of these because I know we'll have a chance to talk about them again.
The second issue I'd like to take up with you - and I think this is a really important issue and I know you did make reference to it in responses to questions from previous members - and that's with respect to the administration of pensions in the Province of Nova Scotia. Particularly, I think you made reference to some concerns around the solvency issue, the number of groups and organizations, the number of pension plans in the province that are currently struggling with the current solvency requirements and the department's intention to perhaps hold a day-long, some sort of a symposium, on the solvency question, with panels of experts.
Now the reason I want to bring this up - and it's not the only issue, I have three things I want to raise with respect to the administration of pensions in the Province of Nova Scotia. I want to raise the matter of the grow-in benefits as well, the changes that have been made by Order In Council regulation to the grow-in benefits that occurred some time ago that are of serious concern to, particularly, workers in the pulp and paper industry in the Province of Nova Scotia, but perhaps not only workers in this industry.
The other issue is the multi-employer pension plans and the solvency issues with respect to the multi-employer pension plans, and finally the use of the surplus, specifically with respect to the Nova Scotia Association of Health Organizations, I think they call themselves. If I can just get my notes here, I want to specifically talk first about the funding of multi-employer pension plans. It's my understanding that the building trades, in particular - and let me say first of all, the solvency issue, as I understand, is not an issue that's peculiar to Nova Scotia and that this issue is becoming increasingly pressing in other jurisdictions, not only throughout Canada, but in other parts of the world as well.
I'm not an accountant or an actuary, or a pension expert. I've tried to understand what obviously is a very complex area of administration, but as close as I can understand it, Mr. Minister, the situation is that pension plans are required to have assets of a certain amount that is determined through using a formula looking at what the payouts would have to be to
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pensioners if an enterprise failed - if it wrapped up, if it went bankrupt, if it closed, if it disappeared.
Right now what's happening in many plans is that pool of money is not adequate for what the solvency test requires, so what's being asked of pension plans is that they are being given, I think, a three-year window to address the shortfall and in many cases what those employers and the employees who are covered by those plans are looking at are significant increases in their contributions, annually, into those plans. Of course, this will affect the bottom line of the employer and it will also affect the take-home pay of the worker quite seriously - and we've seen this in municipalities, with the Halifax Regional Municipality, we've seen it at the universities, I believe, prior to HRM's pension becoming an issue.
I have correspondence and I believe you probably have correspondence from a nursing home in Meteghan, Villa Acadienne, on this issue, and this issue certainly has been raised by the Building and Construction Trades Council with respect to their multi-employer pension plan. So there may very well be other plans that are facing these problems. I know that the department is responsible for 500-plus pension plans. So this is something that we would like to see addressed and we would like to see it addressed in a way that the employers and the employees aren't at a significant disadvantage. Many of these organizations realistically aren't going to disappear tomorrow and so some flexibility around the solvency test seems to be a sensible compromise, I guess, recognizing that it is important that plans be solvent on some level.
The other group that have recently corresponded with you and with ourselves, in the Official Opposition, is the South Shore Regional School Board. They are also facing some problems under the Pension Benefits Act - and that was kind of a surprise, in some ways, to me because I thought that the regional school boards all had a plan that was administered by the Nova Scotia School Boards Association, and I think they actually do, but for some reason the South Shore Regional School Board doesn't seem to be in that same position.
[4:00 p.m.]
The other issue that I've raised is the issue of the use of the NSAHO pension surplus to cover the responsibility of the employer's contributions over a 10-year period. I will let the minister know, because I see the Superintendent of Pensions is here, that as the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, I've recently received a letter from the Chairman of the Economic Development Committee, Ms. Whalen, the member for Halifax Clayton Park, asking that we have the Superintendent of Pensions come before the Public Accounts Committee to discuss the issue of the use of the Nova Scotia Association of Health Organizations, the surplus in that pension plan. It's an extraordinarily large amount of money that was appropriated by the employer to pay for their contributions. Again, this is an area that is complex, I recognize, and the surplus in pension plans is always a controversial subject, particularly when the contributions to those plans are made equally, from employer
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and employee, but can sometimes be appropriated by the employer to cover certain of their costs.
So I think this is something that I certainly will recommend to the Public Accounts Committee that we examine because it is an important issue and I think that it has been an issue that has affected, on some level, the bottom line of the Public Accounts in the Province of Nova Scotia. And I think that, as members of the Legislature, we will have questions about how exactly did that occur, and what steps have been taken to address it and how can we ensure that it doesn't happen again.
Mr. Minister, you'll be aware that the McGuinty Government in Ontario has announced an expert commission to conduct a review of the pension laws. It's the first review in that province in 20 years, of pension laws, and certainly in the terms of reference for that review they are, in fact, looking at issues such as the use of pension surpluses, the management of pension plans, the multi-employer pension plans, and the solvency issues and the affordability and maintenance of defined pension plans in the Province of Ontario. And while I think it's a great idea, especially if there are pressing solvency issues, to have a day-long symposium, perhaps it wouldn't be unrealistic to think about whether a broader review of pension legislation in the Province of Nova Scotia wouldn't be called for at this time.
You know, one of the things in doing my research that I found that surprised me, and really saddened me I think as well, is that the Province of Nova Scotia has one of the lowest percentage of company pension plans for our workforce. So there is not a very large number of people in our workforce who have private pension plans through their employment and this, I think, is also something that's worth looking at - why, exactly, is that? Is it the structure of our labour market or does it relate to our pension legislation - what exactly is it that's driving that situation? It would be something that would be worth addressing certainly at some point in the future.
There probably isn't a lot of time left in the time that I have to speak, and I have so many other things I would like to raise, so I'll try to do it as quickly as I can. We're now on April 2nd and, tick, tick, tick, we still don't have the workplace violence regulations that I think were promised by the end of March, back in the Fall. So I'm hoping that we'll see those in very short order.
The other thing that I really want to raise before my time expires is the Workers' Compensation Board. I would be remiss if I left here without raising concerns that have been expressed to me about a variety of issues. One of the things that I hear quite a bit about is Columbia Health - concerns have been expressed to me that we not see the board embarking on a process to divert injured workers from seeing their family physicians and right into a program of physiotherapy and rehabilitation, and also I know my colleagues have raised the use of painkillers and medications as a primary response to workplace injury. Certainly this is something we hear over and over again.
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I have a fair amount of correspondence from people from around the province. Many of them are injured workers who suffer from chronic pain, some of them pre-Hayden who really feel that there's a double standard in the way that they've been treated in front of the board, the method in which assessments are determined, and this is expressed to me quite often. Additionally, I've heard recently from injured workers about the manner in which annual assessments and increases to the WCB are handled. I've been told that there was a point when the consumer price index was, in fact, what was used to guide increases in WCB, but I haven't exactly been able to track down that information. But I have no reason to believe that the gentleman who gave me this information wouldn't know - he has been around for a long time and around this issue for a very long time.
So this continues to be an irritant for members of our constituencies, members of the public around the province. I think the board's approach to chronic pain, and particularly the pre-Hayden claimants, is one that's of great concern to many members of our community. People are very depressed and quite discouraged - they don't feel they have a voice in representing that point of view and they often, as well, if they think they can find a voice to represent that point of view, they don't feel there's any point, that they're not going to be heard. I would say that communication from the board on this particular matter needs to be stepped up significantly to explain, in fact, what the board is doing and what the rationale is for what they're doing and why they're doing it in this manner.
As you know, the freeze on processing some of these claims was lifted fairly recently, but nevertheless this has not been communicated very well, in my view, to people who are quite often in very difficult circumstances.
So I think those are the main points I wanted to raise in the brief period of time that I have. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, do I have time for one quick question? I have one minute. At the end of my one minute I want to ask the minister if he attended the Canada Games, by any chance, did you have an opportunity to do that?
MR. PARENT: No, I didn't have an opportunity to do that. I wouldn't be attending anything on the department budget that didn't have some sort of relationship to the work that I do as minister.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I wasn't suggesting that you had, I just wondered if you had been to the Canada Games.
MR. PARENT: No, I didn't.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: That concludes my remarks, thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Preston.
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MR. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Am I the last speaker on this topic, do you know? Are we done, after my questioning?
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's my understanding.
MR. COLWELL: Okay, I just wanted to know that, that's all, probably bring some relief to the minister, not that we want to give him any relief.
My first question to the minister is, the RRFB, when we were talking the last time we were here, you indicated at that time that RRFB gives some grants to businesses for innovation and to do with recycling and reusing or whatever structure they want to call it, to help businesses develop new technology or equipment or whatever the case may be.
Do you have a list of all those ones grants that would have been given, say, for the last five or six years, something like that, to businesses, and what products they've managed to develop from that? I realize that all of them wouldn't be successful, which is usually the case when you're coming up with new technology or new ideas. Would it be possible to get that information?
MR. PARENT: Yes, absolutely, we'll have that for you tomorrow. I had it today but we have to reconfigure it somewhat because of privacy concerns for some companies that have applied. In terms of what is being asked for and what awards have gone out, I think that's information that should be available to all members, so we'll be providing that to you tomorrow.
I was speaking at a conference at Acadia University this weekend on the whole issue of the environment. Along with me was Rick Ramsay from the RRFB. Rick mentioned several ways in which that Innovation Fund has been used. I said to him afterwards, could you please get me a listing to share with the members. So I just received word that we have the list, we're just getting rid of the privacy matters and we'll get you that list tomorrow.
He rhymed off three or four different companies and ways it is being used. A recent one was reusing asphalt shingles and a process to separate the backing from the asphalt, in order to reuse that in paving. That was one and he listed about three or four others. Maybe I can give you a few more examples but we'll get you the full list tomorrow. Crushed glass in septic systems is another one, instead of gravel aggregate and people trying to use that, and then construction demolition material, using that for landfill cover, there has been work done on that. So there's a whole variety of them and we'll have that list for you tomorrow. We had it today but our FOIPOP officer told us that we had to strip out the names or she wouldn't let it go out. There's a wide variety and I think it is important that all members see and know and have that information at their fingertips.
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MR. COLWELL: Yes, I'd appreciate that and tomorrow is fine. One other thing, perhaps of the ones that you could release, clear of the grant part of it, maybe some success stories that we've seen from that, I'd like to see those as well, with the names of the companies and what products they've come up with, stuff that would be public information.
MR. PARENT: Sure, the ones we are able to release, we will release with the success stories. The ones that were turned down, we would have to strip off the names, I imagine. We will get that for you.
[4:15 p.m.]
MR. COLWELL: Also, we would like to know yearly, of the total budget of the RRFB, how much money goes into this new sort of technology and if there are any other ways that the money is spent besides applications from individual companies or individuals, whatever the case may be, that would go into new, innovative ideas to help recycle products.
MR. PARENT: It will be about $2 million to $3 million. We will get you the exact figure on that but it's about $2 million to $3 million. The RRFB makes about $10 million in profit but it's not allowed to make a profit so then all the rest of that money, that $10 million or $9 million surplus to the running of the program goes back into the various programs to help in education and various other things, diversion credits to municipalities. But about $2 million to $3 million of that goes into the technology fund.
MR. COLWELL: We talked before about the Enviro-Depots taking a bigger responsibility on - I wouldn't say responsibility - but probably take more items that they could reasonably handle and ultimately get them out of the waste stream and make it easier for people because I still say, and I have said several times in our past hour that we talked here, about making it easier for people. I think that is a key to much of the recycling now. Has there ever been a study done by the RRFB to look at ways that they might really improve these small businesses, because they are small businesses, usually people from the community that are, some of them, just barely making a living from this operation? At the same time, we are seeing all this material being dumped in the woods. So has there ever been a study to see what other things could be done immediately or over a long period of time with some investment?
MR. PARENT: We have been working with them in various different ways, through education programs, through business advice on how to run a business because they are independent businesses. Working directly with Eastern Recylcers Association, I've met with Bruce Rogers several times on issues and programs and goals he has. The Enviro-Depots are very similar but very different across the province. My Enviro-Depot, actually, is a very big one, just up from my house, and takes in a lot of material that other smaller ones can't take. So at times it's difficult for the smaller ones to compete and to make a living as opposed to the large ones in my area and yet we believe it's important to have as much geographical
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spread of Enviro-Depots as is possible and still maintain a good business model for those Enviro-Depots.
There are a few regions where perhaps we have more depots than really the region warrants, which causes some financial pressure on those businesses. We have worked with that to try to get a balance so that the population is covered because your point is right on in terms of we have to make it easy for people to recycle, as easy as we can, at least. So the geographic location of the Enviro-Depots is key to that but the Enviro-Depots also need to make a profit. If you have a small population base, there is one in Caledonia, for example, where she is doing a great job but it's marginal because of the population. We work with her and try to help her out as much as we can. There are some other areas where we have two or three and maybe only one is feasible. Is there a way we can work with them to separate them a bit geographically?
So there are three different ways we work with them and consult with them and try to help them as businesses because without the Enviro-Depots, the RRFB program really wouldn't work and so it's a mutual relationship. Now, I go to the head of the Nova Scotia - on the executive is a member in David Morse's riding, actually, but a good friend of mine who goes to the New Minas Rotary. They run Fritz's and they also run the Enviro-Depot right beside it.
I've been to their annual meetings for the last three or four years, I think, and I know there's not always agreement between the Enviro-Depots and RRFB about what compensation the RRFB is giving. You may remember some years ago there were some pop bottles put in front of Province House. We've worked through that and I think the relationship right now, at the last few annual meetings, has been one where there's a real sense of collegiality.
The problem with the smaller Enviro-Depots is profitability, basically. I think the Enviro-Depot, when you talked about the white items - fridges, stoves, et cetera - many of them couldn't handle it, but some of them could. We maybe should look at having Enviro-Depots that can handle bigger objects. I don't know if we have that.
As I said, it's a question of quite a variation in size between these Enviro-Depots and trying to support them all so that we have that geographic spread that will make recycling easy.
MR. COLWELL: Along the same lines of the Enviro-Depots, this is something I was quite disturbed about, I can't remember if I mentioned it the last time we were here or not, but they used to take cardboard, but from what I understand from talking with some of the people with the RRFB, some of the people at the Enviro-Depot said the RRFB simply wouldn't take it anymore. Could you tell me why the RRFB wouldn't take the cardboard from the Enviro-Depots anymore?
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MR. PARENT: Cardboard is something that's actually a marketable commodity now. What we are finding is in the RRFB we're getting such a small percentage - the municipalities were taking it and they were using it because they can market it. Minas Basin Pulp and Paper, as you know, uses the cardboard for their fibre. They don't use any trees - it's all cardboard. So, we were getting about 100 tons last year and, a couple of hundred tons, it was just too small a diversion because others were using it - municipalities. They were either selling it, there are a couple of places they could sell it to.
That's part of the problem with Minas Basin Pulp and Paper, they recycle the cardboard, but they're having to compete for it against other companies because cardboard has a value to it as opposed to used tires. There's quite a difference between a used tire which is an economic liability, basically, and used cardboard which has economic value on the open market.
That's what happened with the cardboard. It was just such a small stream that most of it was going off to the municipalities, to Minas Basin, to other things, that they decided that they wouldn't handle that stream any longer and concentrated on others where there were greater volumes.
MR. COLWELL: It was a small cash flow item though for some of these smaller facilities. Because of that, it probably brought some people in that had some cardboard boxes and maybe some bottles or cans or whatever beverage containers that they could make more money on. It did stop those visits and it also took away the convenience in being able to get rid of your cardboard, even though you can put it out to the curb if it's not raining. If it rains, then you have a mess and what do you do with it then?
I think they really should have a look at the convenience as well for the residents. Sometimes I think it's worth a little bit to do that and at the same time help some of these Enviro-Depots. Even though they only get a few dollars a month out of it, sometimes it would probably be enough to maybe pay their phone bill, if they can afford a phone.
MR. PARENT: I'll take that under advisement. Again, it was just really a question of the small percentage of it so they decided to just let that go into the curbside collection rather than into the recycling. But, certainly, we'll take another look at it. If there are any geographic variations on that maybe, I'd be happy to take a look at it again.
MR. COLWELL: I don't want a response to this, but I think part of the problem was, a lot of people didn't realize you could take your cardboard there. I just found out by accident one day when I was at the Enviro-Depot and saw that someone was dropping cardboard off and that was just I would say within the last couple of years and then after that I took all my cardboard there as well. Sometimes it's quite a problem.
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Anyway, I'm going to switch areas here. Last year or the year before, I talked about diving regulations in the province. The province has put in place some diving regulations and since those regulations have been in place and from what I understand in talking to the commercial diving industry, it wasn't actually what they were looking for. They've got an unbelievably good safety track record in their business, and it seems like most of the people die from scuba diving rather than the commercial diving system which is a hard hat. What are the stats on diving injuries or in the industry since these new regulations have been in place? Have there been any injuries or any deaths?
MR. PARENT: I can't recall any injuries that have happened since the diving regulations were in place. I've heard from people in the professional diving industry who have complained that the regulations weren't exactly what they wanted. Those regulations were part of a four-year plan that was worked out with the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Committee which is made up of stakeholders and they worked very hard to get a four-year plan of what they were going to do. So the first phase was the diving regulations. This year it's violence in the workforce. The next we're going to look at is the whole question of internal responsibility, how to support OHS Committees within governments; and the fourth year target, I can't remember right now but, anyway, this was the first thing that we tackled.
The regulations have been effective in terms of no accidents. There are some people in the industry who have said that the regulations were too restrictive for them and would create problems, but it's difficult for me to speak authoritatively on it because they were brought in before my time as the first of this four-year Occupational Health and Safety plan and our Occupational Health and Safety person, Jim LeBlanc is away right now dealing with other matters. So I'll try to get you further information but the regulations seem to have worked well. Any time you bring in regulations, there's always a balance between bringing in regulations that will ensure safety, and you know this better than I do, and then bringing in regulations that work with small business and don't put an onerous sort of pressure on them financially or in terms of human resources that they can't meet and that's always the dance that we're trying to play.
With violence in the workplace regulations, that's it, for example. I mean larger companies and institutions have no problem with instituting these policies but a two, three, four, five member workforce is saying you've got to give us flexibility. We want to safeguard our workers from violence but we don't have the resources to have, you know, full-time people devoted to it or whatever. So that's always the dance that we're playing to make sure the regulations are effective, they work, and yet are flexible for smaller businesses in particular.
MR. COLWELL: Yes, I know previously, before those regulations were put in place in Nova Scotia, our safety record was pretty poor.
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MR. PARENT: The safety record has improved substantially.
MR. COLWELL: In those new regulations, I believe, and I can't remember offhand, there was some training or mandatory things that the companies had to do to ensure they were in place. I wonder if those have all been done by all the companies that are working?
MR. PARENT: Yes, the word I'm getting is that they've all complied. I'll double-check that with you, but our understanding is it has been done.
MR. COLWELL: Just to bring the minister up to speed, there was a national standard - well the Canadian standard meets the national standard, if I recall, and I'm just going from memory here so I could be wrong - that the commercial industry uses and ever since it instituted that new standard there has not been a death in the commercial diving industry in the world. So, hopefully, there aren't any more deaths in the industry and the new diving regulations do satisfy that safety issue. Is there an automatic clause in your new regulations that if there is a death, the regulations be looked at again?
MR. PARENT: In the workplace violence or the diving regulations?
MR. COLWELL: The diving regulations.
MR. PARENT: No, but it's a good suggestion. With the workplace violence, which will tie in with that in a sense, we're building in a review. If I remember one of the suggestions that came back, there would be various triggers for the review and that would be a very good thing to work in, that if there is a death, that automatically creates a review in the regulations. There isn't in the diving regulations that I am aware of but it is a good suggestion as an automatic trigger. You would have a five-year review but if you had a death sooner than that, that might trigger a review as well. We'll take that under advisement.
[4:30 p.m.]
MR. COLWELL: Considering what's happening in the commercial industry, which is extremely high risk - in some cases very deep diving can lead to some very serious things - and they haven't had an accident. I know the industry wasn't totally satisfied with the regulations the province put in place and I realize it was a compromise. Indeed if those regulations do end up in a death for whatever reason I would personally like to see an automatic review of the whole process immediately. It appears in the past from limited knowledge I have of this - and I stress limited knowledge - that most of the deaths happen with scuba gear.
I know a friend of mine watched his very best friend die and he couldn't do anything to help him. He was sucked in to an intake from a big pump and held up against the grate and he just simply ran out of air and died. They couldn't get the pump shut down because it was
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a long ways away and nobody knew the guy was there except his diving buddy, he couldn't go near it because he would have been sucked in too. With the hard hats you can sit there for days, you can have some odd things happen to you but you still wouldn't run out of air. I think some of the accidents they had were around running out of air, divers getting trapped and not having air.
So the standards you have aren't up to the world standard and I understand for small business but we also want to make sure that our costs to the families and to the industries don't get out of control because the standards aren't high enough. I'd rather see higher standards and a time period for people to put them in place than to see people die or become permanently injured.
Back to workers' compensation now - I'm going to be all over the place today.
MR. PARENT: At least you're giving me a chance to answer, which is nice.
MR. COLWELL: I'm interested in the answers not my questions. Workers' compensation, I just want to get some clarity on this and tell me if I'm absolutely right on this or if I'm all wrong on it. The reason that the time period was picked for chronic pain has to do with the Canadian Constitution, is that correct?
MR. PARENT: It was chosen for that reason.
MR. COLWELL: And that was due to the court case that was before the Supreme Court and prior to that there was no jurisdiction for them to act on this decision, would that be correct?
MR. PARENT: The Supreme Court mandated that we had to compensate for chronic pain so the date that was chosen was the Charter in 1985. That was chosen as a date that fit in with the Supreme Court decision that seemed to make sense. There was slightly different wording between the department and the Workers' Compensation Board - the same intention for both boards, but slightly different wording as to when that chronic pain was developed.
I guess the commonality between the government and WCB was that if you had chronic pain after 1995 then you would be compensated. I talked to the board chairman and the CAO of the WCB just last week and asked them how the chronic pain was going in terms of their ability because they felt this was quite a big challenge to them. You know that the Workers' Compensation Board had an unfunded liability, not long before I took over, of about $390 million and now it's down to, they're telling me, about $340 million. They will be able to then address some other things and return benefits to workers and to employers as a result of having dealt with that. That's quite an achievement really in light of the fact that was done at the same time that they were mandated to pay out chronic pain.
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Now the previous member was telling me about chronic pain and so that gives me a chance to answer her through you because I wasn't given that opportunity before.
Thirty per cent of the chronic pain appeals have been approved. That is about twice as high as most other provinces in Canada, so there has been a fairly high approval rate for Nova Scotia. Now if you weren't approved, that's still not satisfactory to you and some concerns have been brought forward from workers who weren't approved, but in comparison with other jurisdictions it has been a much higher approval rate and yet they've been able to keep the costs so that the unfunded liability has actually started to come down. That's good news because as the unfunded liability comes down, it frees - as you probably know, we have the highest rates for employers and the lowest benefits for employees, not something to be proud of - as that unfunded liability comes down, it allows them to bring down rates a little bit and bring up benefits a little bit, so that we begin to move in the right direction on both sides of the equation.
A large part of that really goes to the staff at WCB but I think a large part of the credit also goes to the new governance structure. As you know, we have representatives - four from labour and four employees on the board. The previous member was talking about how the injured workers across the province don't feel they have any input into the WCB. I didn't get a chance to respond because they actually have a representative on the WCB now, a direct pipeline to the WCB, that's one of the four employee representatives.
So bringing the stakeholders together, because both of them had an interest, really, we were at a stage not that long ago where some of the major companies were threatening to pull out and were quite upset, feeling that WCB was broken. So both employers and employees have a vested interest in a good WCB; the employers because it is an insurance plan for their workers and they want to care for the workers, and the employees naturally because then there's something to fall back on if they get injured at work, if they don't have private plans. So there was a common interest.
Now the employees wanted to get as much as they could in benefits and employers pay as little as they could in fees, so there was a difference there, but because the common interest was to make the WCB work, it worked well to have the stakeholders around the table. That process, I can't take credit for it because it was put in before my time, but it really has resulted in some real benefits, both to employees and to employers. It has been a system that, really, it is good that was put in because the WCB was almost broke not that long ago, because of this unfunded liability, because of the fact that there was a lack of trust because people weren't working together.
The new governance plan saying okay, we'll put you on the board and work it out for the benefit of everyone has worked and as I was mentioning - this may not be a hard figure but I was told they are down to about $340 million now on unfunded liability and it was about $400 million not that long ago. So that will begin to allow them some flexibility as
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they continue to bring that down, but as they bring that down, they'll have flexibility to begin to augment some of their programs and to look at some of the things that came out of the Dorsey report that they've been able to do; the governance piece but maybe the cost of living increases they were not able to do and also, as I said, to benefit both employees and employers.
It has been a good governance model and it has been able to handle the challenge of chronic pain, to get back to your original issue which was quite a challenge because when you're mandated to pay for this and you weren't really planning for it in your corporate plan, how do you do that? How do you do that in a way that's fair to the people who suffer from chronic pain and yet do that in a way that respects the financial pressures you are under?
I know there was some concern - before I took over as minister I had former board members who had resigned, if you may remember not that long ago, and they told me that they thought the chronic pain would bankrupt the Province of Nova Scotia. It hasn't done that, it's at about $180 million, the payouts, and it has been more generous than other provinces, so I think that is really a tribute, again, to the governance system. Now there may be those who didn't receive chronic pain payments who may be mounting another court challenge, I understand - we will just have to see how that plays out.
MR. COLWELL: I must say, dealing with the Workers' Compensation Board over several years, being an MLA, there has been a major improvement in the staff there and it seems to be a new direction they have taken, which I think is very positive.
The only question I have asked them, and I will ask you, Mr. Minister - it is so complicated, the system, I mean I work on a lot of Canada Pension Disability claims for individuals and that is a pretty straightforward system. You are either disabled or you're not, and if you are you get the pension - you have to prove it, of course, and that's it. After you go through the initial process, there are two other levels of appeal, and unless you can get any brand new information after that you can't appeal any further. So I don't know why we have all these different levels of appeal. It seems like it's never-ending. Why can't it be streamlined a lot better to make it easier on the workers?
MR. PARENT: It's a good point you raise and that has been a concern that we have had. There has been progress made, as you said, and as MLAs we have all experienced it, but we need to do more in terms of dealing with that.
There are two pieces to that which have been helpful. One we have in place with Tim McInnis - I haven't heard an MLA who has not sung his praises in terms of helping them help their constituents, and he has certainly done that in my office too - and there is a new navigator program that they are bringing into place as well, and that along with on the other side, not just helping clients work through the system but trying to simplify the system, that is going on as well to streamline the system.
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So hopefully we'll be able to get the two in a good balance, where you have streamlined it, because there is only so far you can streamline - I mean it's going to be a very complicated process by its very nature - but streamline it as well as you can and then provide support. Tim McInnis has been mandated to supply support, particularly to deal with MLAs, but I mean with the general public. But I think he has been very proactive, and then this navigator system that will help people navigate through and support them as they go through the system is going to be put in place, and that navigator system should be in place this summer so you will see some benefits there too, hopefully by the Fall.
MR. COLWELL: What about the never-ending appeal process that seems to be in place - if you lose, you appeal, if you lose, you appeal, if you lose, you appeal again?
MR. PARENT: The WCAT, which is what you're asking about, is under the Justice Department, so it may be a question you want to ask Justice because sometimes to the chairman of Workers' Compensation I ask, why aren't you getting those appeals done? But certainly I will pass that on to the Minister of Justice as well. I don't think, when I first talked to him, he realized he had WCAT under him - he thought it was all under me.
MR. COLWELL: He was hoping.
MR. PARENT: He was hoping, yes. But I will certainly pass on your concern to him. I have expressed that concern already, and you may want to ask your critic, when the Justice Minister comes forward, to ask a question on that.
MR. COLWELL: I definitely will. The other thing - and I addressed this in a letter to you and I appreciate your response, but I would just like to get it on the record here - when someone wins an appeal, sometimes the Workers' Compensation Board doesn't set up the payment plan for them for several months, when indeed, on the other hand, if they owe money to the Workers' Compensation Board, instantly they take the money away.
The reason I ask that is that a lot of people who have been injured at work, and legitimately so, usually when I get to see them - and as MLA you probably see the same thing - they are in the process of losing their home and all kinds of really negative things have happened to them because their income has gone by the board. If they are really fortunate, their spouse may be working or, in a rare case - a very rare case - they may be financially independent enough that it doesn't cripple them. But you see people going through not only the physical and medical problems but also the psychological problems with seeing everything they have worked for their whole lives disappear.
I know you did send me a letter back on that, but I would like to get that on the record here as well.
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MR. PARENT: I appreciate your letter and I remember responding to it. I agreed with you. It is important that that happen because I, as an MLA, have seen the same thing. Oftentimes by the time they get to that place, they have been out of work for awhile and they have used up their family resources, so when they get their decision the money should flow as quickly as possible.
[4:45 p.m.]
I just sort of smiled because I have the same complaint about Revenue Canada - when I owe them money, boy, they are after me right away, and when they owe me money it takes a long time to get it.
With the WCB it's particularly more important because they are vulnerable, because they have been injured and they are out of work. So we acknowledge your letter, agree with you, and certainly have passed that on to the WCB as something we want them to work at and to improve on - and they do as well. It's not that they don't want to do it, but it's helpful now and then to bring it before them and say this is an issue that is being experienced by people who are dealing with WCB claimants who come as constituents to their office. So I appreciate your letter and I think I respond in the vein that I support, and certainly letters like that, you can tell your constituents, are very important because it gets it on file. You know we have a myriad of things to do and so does WCB and so it's important that be on record, and so I want to thank you for raising the issue. I am certainly in agreement with you and we will try to continue to prod on that to get the payments out as quickly as possible.
MR. COLWELL: That will definitely be of assistance and I do appreciate your answer. I just want it on the record here that you did send me that reply.
As you go through this process - and I'm getting less of this now - what about the training of the staff at the Workers' Compensation Board? When I say "staff", I mean the people who actually deal with the injured workers, the caseworkers. I've had some complaints about that, not that the people weren't competent or anything like that, but I think sometimes, from what I could glean from individuals who have been approved, and some who haven't been approved, there is not a really good level of satisfaction with all the workers. Now I am not saying this generally, but with some of the workers maybe not giving them correct information - and I know they are not paid to be sympathetic but I think when someone is injured that is an important part of dealing with an individual - not maybe processing the thing as quickly as possible or as well or whatever the case may be. I have what appear to be good examples of that documented from individuals who have sent the information to me - and I stress "appears to be" because you can't say those things for sure until you know both sides of the story.
I know they made a lot of major improvements, and I think very good improvements, but has there been anything directed in that area, because oftentimes if you have somebody
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who comes in and they have been injured, it's a shock, they may not be able to ever go back to work or they may be off work for an extended period of time, and it's really important to get somebody you are dealing with who can understand that and can lead you in the right direction.
MR. PARENT: There has been work done with the WCB on training of staff and board members have raised the very issue that you have raised in terms of making sure not only correct information is given out, because that is vitally important, but also that the client is responded to in an appropriate, respectful manner.
Tim McInnis has been very helpful in this regard, too. He usually becomes the person of last resort and he has to untangle sometimes problems that were created by maybe a lack of communication beforehand. Not everybody is as good at it as other people - he happens to be excellent at it, but the employees are being trained appropriately in it. The concern has been raised at the board level in terms of the sort of - I mean when you are dealing with injured workers you are often dealing with people who are under a lot of stress for financial reasons, for pain reasons, they are worried about the future and it's important they be treated with respect.
There has been a lot of improvement in that regard but we continue to try to move forward to better that so that people are treated with, I think that the word is really "respect" and some measure of sympathy. We may have to say no to them, but it should be done with a human sort of face to it. Some of our staff are very good at that and some aren't. So there has been training done and the board has asked for some more sensitivity training in that sense to be done, and Tim McInnis has been very helpful in that as well. So progress is being made.
MR. COLWELL: I'm glad to hear that because that seems to be an ongoing concern, again with people who have been approved and people who haven't been approved. So it's something that may alleviate some of the difficulties, if that indeed can be accomplished, and I know it's very difficult and must be very stressful too for the caseworkers who are probably working on many, many cases at the same time and trying to cope with all that - and receiving endless phone calls.
MR. PARENT: Has the honourable member had a chance to tour the WCB facility?
MR. COLWELL: Not in the last four or five years.
MR. PARENT: Maybe we should set that up with the two critics because I've had that tour and, yes, it would be helpful. So we'll set that up.
MR. COLWELL: That would be very helpful. So WCB has been a big problem and I will say that I've been quite pleased with some of the changes that the new CEO is making.
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She seems to be doing a good job and on the right track - I think there's still a lot of work to be done there, but it was a big job to start.
MR. PARENT: One of the things that there has been a big push on, and I know you followed it because I know you keep on top of this file, is prevention, the shift moving towards more preventive education, training, work, and it parallels in many ways the health system where we realize that we can't keep dealing with acute cases - we have to do that, but if we can do preventive health we'll stop some of the acute cases, and the same thing has been happening at WCB in terms of their emphasis on prevention and the work they're doing in prevention.
Employers have a vested interest when it's pointed out to them that if they can prevent workplace accidents they can bring their rates down so there's a direct financial benefit. That has been one of the big changes that has been happening with the WCB in terms of their work with employers, and I think it oftentimes goes unheralded, but there has been a real cultural shift and a lot more effort being put on the prevention side and upon training and education so that you don't get the accidents, which is what we all want. That's good for everybody, you know, the worker doesn't get injured and the employers' rates go down because they have less injuries, because the rates are based upon the classification they're in and the number of accidents they have.
MR. COLWELL: I think that's a really good program too. Has there been any work done by the Workers' Compensation Board to educate employees - it's easy to educate an employer when you say you're going to save some money, but to educate the employees of companies to make sure they follow the safety rules, identify things that have to be rectified to prevent accidents, and to ensure that the accidents are preventable?
MR. PARENT: Yes, we've done some training and there is training mainly through the Human Resources Department which then train their employees. But it was just when I mentioned that maybe it might be good if Maureen and yourself and I went on a tour of WCB, all three people at the head table nodded their heads, and I'm wondering if we should actually set up a session with the WCB for all MLAs who want to come, because I think a lot of people don't realize how many constituents come to us as MLAs, and I know with Workers' Compensation Board they're very complex. So we need more training for people who apply for workers, but maybe one way of helping workers is to help educate MLAs better so that they can help the constituents who come to them. You just twigged something, so if there's a day for MLAs, we'll attribute it to your suggestion.
MR. COLWELL: In order to get me in trouble. Again, I go back to the same trouble. I deal with a lot of Canada Pension Disability appeals and I only ever see people usually when it comes to the appeal stage, and hopefully it's the first stage and not the last stage. With Canada Pension, if you can get a recognized specialist to indicate that a person cannot return to work - and it's a little bit different with Workers' Compensation because it has to
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be a work-related accident or injury, or whatever the case may be, but with Canada Pension it's that way, and the other complaint I get of Workers' Compensation is - and I've gotten this from doctors as well, this is not just people who go there and indicate that sometimes the doctors that WCB employs aren't maybe the experts they should be in the field they're trying to assess and as a result of that some people don't get approved, whereas with the Canada Pension system, if you have a heart condition you go to a heart specialist in Halifax or Toronto, or down in Yarmouth if there's a heart specialist there, and they write up that you cannot return to work because you're not fit to return to work, and 99 per cent of the time you'll get Canada Pension.
But you have to have a specialist - a GP can't write that up and approve it. So why is the board, it always seems to be looking at - they take a GP and they get a specialist's report and they sometimes overrule those?
MR. PARENT: The WCAT can order the appropriate specialist at the final appeal stage. But we'll take your concern under advisement at the preliminary stage as well - are the right specialists being called in? I know there is a problem that WCB's working on in terms of getting appropriate medical care for the workers who are injured. Back to the previous member who talked about Columbia Health and wondering if that was appropriate, and what that was was a second level of assessment for chronic pain to try and help provide that expertise that you're mentioning so that they're getting the right specialist making the appropriate decision.
It can be mandated at WCAT if they felt that in the appeal process there was a GP making a decision about something a specialist should be making, WCAT will mandate to have a specialist look at the worker. But, we'll take under advisement to see if we can suggest to WCB that maybe they might be able to make sure they match up specialists with injury as soon as possible.
Sometimes when the injured worker comes in, it may not be readily apparent what the state of the injury is or where it's going to go and who should be the appropriate specialist, but we'll take that under advisement. But WCAT can mandate that if they felt the person had this problem, that they weren't seen by the person with the right expertise and the decision was rendered by a person who really didn't have the expertise they should have had.
MR. COLWELL: What I'm thinking about is more when the caseworkers come along, you have someone who's injured, something that they deal with on a regular basis - hopefully there are not too many of those, but something that's sort of black and white and they can say, okay, this person was injured on the job and this is what their approval will be, and that case is gone. Hopefully, there are no complications that it has to come back for.
But the ones that maybe they're not sure about, why couldn't they recommend they go see a particular specialist? I wouldn't say a particular specialist, I would say a specialist
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in the field, so it's not someone identified to the workers as being a Workers' Compensation specialist, but a specialist. I think there's an important difference there.
MR. PARENT: We've written down "a specialist in the medical area of the injury."
MR. COLWELL: Exactly. The choice of whomever the family doctor may recommend that the patient go to, which would be a normal process anyway.
That may save a lot of appeals. From the standpoint of approvals, or disapprovals - whichever the case may be - to do that and it could save a lot of aggravation, a lot of time for people and get them approved if the specialist thinks they should be approved or if they shouldn't be approved, why they shouldn't be approved, so there's no guesswork.
There's a lot of distrust of the doctors who actually work for WCB, who are sort of on the WCB payroll as a doctor, that would be fee for services, as would be in a normal situation. If you would look at that, I think that would be greatly appreciated and it could eliminate a lot of this hassle.
MR. PARENT: Sure, happy to do that.
MR. COLWELL: Okay. Mr. Chairman, how much time do I have left?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ten minutes.
[5:00 p.m.]
MR. COLWELL: I'm going back to the RRFB again - you can tell this is my favourite topic. Again, I stress, and I said the other day, I think you have excellent staff at RRFB. I think maybe it's time they become a little bit more - how can I put it - "entrepreneurial" perhaps may be the proper word. I think they've done a great job and they work hard.
But back to this grants for business again, and I know you'll send me all the information, but it's important that we get new products and businesses in Nova Scotia. As our population gets older, our working group is going to get smaller and we're going to be in big financial trouble in this province if we don't get some innovation here and stuff that is home grown here. I know a lot of the Nova Scotia businesses - I know when I was running my business - are very capable people and usually end up exporting their expertise and knowledge. Has there been a director from the department for RRFB to really push for business development in Nova Scotia using the resources they have? I'm not talking about building industrial malls but I mean for innovation and for really going after recycling.
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MR. PARENT: We have a branch in the Department of Environment and Labour called the technology and innovation branch. Robert Anderson is one of the workers in there and he works with the RRFB. Lately I've had three or four letters cross my desk praising the work that branch has done and in particular what Robert Anderson has done not just with the RRFB but dealing also with companies. One was a Cape Breton company that got a $3 million contract in Newfoundland and Labrador that they would never have gotten without Robert Anderson working on it, or that branch working on it. So we have the technology and innovation branch and if you'd like to talk to Mr. Anderson - well I think he visited your home. So he has been active with the RRFB, it's important.
I get frustrated that we don't have enough innovation, I agree with you Keith. A lot of the R & D that's being done in this province - as opposed to other provinces where you get a higher percentage being done with private companies - is confined to universities which is good and bad. It's good in the sense that we have great universities but the link that universities often don't make is the commercialization of something that businesses do. So we've been having to work with our universities since that's where most of our R & D takes place and help them to realize that pure research that doesn't end in some sort of commercialization, that it's a process. So that is a challenge. Anything that RRFB can do to help private companies is something that we encourage them to do and we mandate them to do and work with them through the technology and innovation branch.
To be fair to universities, because I wouldn't want this to go on record not being fair to them, I appreciate the fact that they do the R & D and appreciate the fact that many universities increasingly are seeing that as their connection with the business world. CBU, for example, I sat down with the president of CBU wanting to work with the department and with Transportation and Public Works on Sydney tar ponds to get an institute in remediation that could be involved with the cleanup of the Sydney tar ponds and, using the expertise that they've gained in there, be able to export that to other brown fields, other industrial waste sites across North America, across the world. I mentioned to him that sometimes there's a problem that professors say I don't want to be involved in that, I just do pure research and that is beneath me, but he said that the culture is changing and at CBU the professors are eager to get involved in seeing an idea through.
The RRFB is also presently hiring a director of business development and hope to have someone in place within May or June that will also help in this process. Once we get that person in place we'll get you the names so that you can chat with them and give them some insights of what would be helpful out of your experience. I guess when you mention innovation it's absolutely critical that that's where we need to go as a province in agriculture and all sorts of areas. I'm pleased that under the Department of Environment and Labour we have moved over a big chunk of economic development because they realized that the green technology, the green economy was something that we needed to tap into and that was an area in which Nova Scotia could grow.
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I wanted to respond to the previous member but didn't have the chance. He was talking about the changing workforce and was in a sense saying we weren't doing enough to help them. I was going to agree that with globalization you are seeing change, you are seeing outsourcing of jobs that you didn't see before, but in the midst of some of the loss of those jobs there has also been a growing green economy that has gone unnoticed. We now have well over 5,000 people working in environmental industries and about $340 million is the industry's worth. This has come out of really nowhere compared to the past. So we want to encourage that and I know you want to encourage that and that's what lies behind your question. So there is the innovation technology branch in the department. We work with the RRFB. We are going to be hiring a person for business development who will be in place in May/June.
It's certainly something that as a department, and myself, innovation is something that's vitally important and, as I said, the challenge in working with our universities I think is being met, at Acadia University too. Most of the universities now are at the place where instead of getting back, well, we're just a university, we just do pre-research, they're wanting to partner with us and they're wanting to work with us and wanting to work with the federal government. The ocean tracking system at Dalhousie is another example of that. So there has been some real progress made in that regard but the challenge remains, innovation is key to the province's success in the future and I'm glad you put your finger on it.
MR. COLWELL: I found that we have some excellent universities here but they admit themselves that they haven't had the ability to really commercialize a lot of the excellent ideas that come across. It would be good to see that RRFB get an individual there, hopefully it's someone with a business background who understands what a business needs rather than someone fresh out of university, which is good, but unless you've run a business you can't understand what a business needs. Sometimes the funniest little thing can make a lot of money for some business if they develop it properly and have the right kind of support in place. How much budget do you have in that innovation section of your department? (Interruption) It must not be very much money if you don't know exactly right offhand.
MR. PARENT: Oh, I think it's very sizeable. Well, at least for us, we're not a big department.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have three minutes.
MR. PARENT: The total figure for you, the problem is we get money from industry, I will get money from Economic Development. We have about $400,000 of our own money in there but we get money from the other departments together. So what you're really asking for is the total global figure and that's the problem. It's divided under different areas. So $400,000 from our department roughly but we get NSBI money and we get Economic Development money as well which will make that far bigger. So we'll get you that global figure. It's a good question. I should have known that off the top of my head. Right now we
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have someone working down in Trinidad. Craig Morrison is down in Trinidad right now and he's paid out of that fund. So it's a much bigger fund than $400,000 but because it's spread out and it's not under one tab, we don't have the figure but we'll get that for you.
MR. COLWELL: That would be good because I think any money you spend there, it takes some time for innovation to pay off but it does pay off over time, and I'm glad to see at least you've got some money and some effort into that effort. From what I understand, too, it's a lot of practical research to do as well. When I say practical research - I shouldn't say research - practical applications of technology and development of that technology.
MR. PARENT: We'll have that list to you and as I said, the Chairman of the RRFB, Rick Ramsay was sharing at Acadia University yesterday at the conference I was at and I said to myself, this is great, I'll have to remember all these and the only one I remembered was the separation of the backing of asphalt shingles to reuse the front part for paving, but we'll have that list for you tomorrow.
MR. COLWELL: Okay, that would be good. Along the line of innovation - we're going to run out of time here in about a minute, I think - what about when we talk about green energy because that's really some Energy Department things and would be Environment, but with solar panels and energy like that. Is your staff working on anything along that line of technology-renewable energy?
MR. PARENT: Most of our efforts are going into wind right now and tomorrow I'll be making an announcement with John Baird, the federal minister, about some other . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. The time has elapsed.
MR. PARENT: We can chat later.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
HON. RONALD CHISHOLM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sitting back I was listening to one of your explanations to the member for Preston regarding Robert Anderson and the work that he does within the Department of Environment and Labour. I do know Robert quite well, I've worked with him on a few projects in Guysborough County. I know the Guysborough municipal unit has the second generation landfill. They've, I think, been operating, it's about a year ago in January that it came into operation. Somewhere around there. Can you give us any idea of what the - I know there are different municipalities from right around eastern Nova Scotia, Antigonish, St. Mary's, Canso, Mulgrave, as well as Cape Breton Island are all part of that group that ship garbage to Guysborough. Any other second generation landfills in the province?
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MR. PARENT: Yes, back in the early 1980s, there were about 100 dumps throughout the province, and I use that word deliberately because many of them were dumps. There was a tremendous problem, not only with the visual aspect of them but with the air pollution and the fact that they were leaching into the water table, which was quite a problem. The province went forward to try to deal with that but even in 1995, when the waste management system was coming in place, there were 44 of those.
Since then we've moved to seven of the second generation landfill systems, state of the art landfill systems. I've toured two or three of them and when you talk about innovation and technology, they're really technological marvels when you start asking how it works. The one I remember most clearly that I talk about a lot was in the riding of the honourable member for Cumberland South and the site there is using wetlands that they've created, in order to deal with the leachate, so you have the liners, gravel. You really have to see one, I can't really describe it well enough to tell you all the technology that's involved, but they've added on now these wetlands, the leachate that comes out goes through a series of three wetlands and by the time it comes out of the wetlands, it has been naturally purified.
So we have the seven; Queens, Chester, West Hants, HRM here, Cumberland, Colchester and Guysborough. As you say, Guysborough handles all the waste from Cape Breton. We have moved a long way from where we were not that long ago really to having state of the art landfill systems, second generation, seven of them across the province. That decision was made by a previous government to move in that direction and I always give previous government credit for that because it was quite a visionary one.
[5:15 p.m.]
We are world leaders. I like to tell the story when I was down in Trinidad at the Caribbean Water and Wastewater Association. What was fascinating there is that we were the central province from Canada. You would think from the Caribbean nations' perspective that Canada and Nova Scotia were identical and the companies from Ontario and Alberta got quite angry which didn't bother me one bit. What pleased me the most was the delegate from Puerto Rico came - and I mentioned this in several talks because it really stuck with me - here's Puerto Rico, I don't know if they're a protectorate of the United States, they're not yet a state, but they could access anything the United States could provide in terms of technology or expertise in dealing with solid waste. He came to me and said "usted es lideres", you're leaders in the world in waste, come help us in Puerto Rico. He has been hounding me ever since to come down to Puerto Rico to provide some help. Because of the size of our department and the limitations I had, I've had to refuse the invitation.
Our second generation landfills and our system of waste diversion are second to none in the country We have the lowest disposal rate per person. In Canada we are the only province to reach the 50 per cent, now we've slipped a little bit below that because the construction industry has increased which adds. We're dealing with that by taking other
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items out of the waste stream such as electronic recycling which is coming on stream and we hope to help the municipalities be able to reach a new disposal rate that we set in the sustainability bill that I've tabled. In fact, I got a bit of a chuckle because one of the municipalities phoned me and was a little worried that maybe we were moving too much out of the waste stream into the recycling end. The amount of garbage that's their bread and butter was going down too far which was interesting. So we really have a great system.
Now there are concerns, as you've known, in the press that have been brought up by the Halifax Regional Municipality on the whole issue of what they call flow control, that's before the courts. The court did not uphold HRM's initial challenge, but there is an appeal going forward and we're waiting to hear that appeal in terms of flow control. I can assure the honourable member, as I've assured him privately, that even if that appeal was upheld it wouldn't affect Guysborough because what it would do is really allow municipalities to enter into contractual agreements if they so desire, but it would be up to the municipalities if the municipality didn't want to. In Guysborough's case where Cape Breton and Guysborough County have a very good relationship and Cape Breton wants to use Guysborough County as its landfill site of first choice, that's not threatened at all by this court case that's going forward.
MR. CHISHOLM: I've gone a couple of times on tours of the second generation landfill in Guysborough and I would certainly invite you at some point in time, maybe in the not too distant future, to come down and do a tour with me. If we can set that up sometime this summer we'll do that.
Guysborough Municipality is a very small municipal unit and they're very proud of the second generation landfill that they have in place. They've done an excellent job of managing that and even for them as a small municipal unit to take on that sort of a project is something. I guess they saw an avenue where there were a few bucks in garbage so they grabbed it and ran with it and they've done a very good job.
Down in Little Dover, Guysborough County, as well, the municipality has put a sewer system through the Village of Little Dover. That happened two or three years ago, I guess, now. They've had a truck - well, Robert Anderson was very involved in this, as well - a truck that they had brought in from, I think, Norway. I was down there and they did a demonstration one day and I took part in that with Robert, as well as people from the municipality. Is that truck still around and if so, where is it located? I believe it was called a dewatering truck maybe?
MR. PARENT: The truck's still available. It was in the Eastern Shore, we're now trying to get down to the South Shore. It's still here. The honourable member sitting beside you knows about the truck, he has seen it in operation.
MR. CHISHOLM: Yes, I did as well, down in Little Dover.
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MR. PARENT: And you have, as well. And we're trying to get it to the South Shore. I've been wanting to get them up in the Valley to do a demonstration project there. I haven't seen it but I've heard a lot about it. It can handle, without going back to the discharge station, it can pump 10 or 20 septic systems, while a regular truck pumps about four or five and then has to go back to dispose of it, but because of the process where they separate out the solids from the liquids and then they can pump the liquids back in, they can do up to 20 septic systems. So the advantage of that is twofold. One is that it becomes cheaper for the person getting their septic system pumped out. So it brings the price down and secondly, it helps with greenhouse gases because you don't have this truck going back to the landfill site as often. It's able to be more efficient in its use.
I have talked to Robert about the truck and he was looking at a plan, which I think is a good plan. It's visionary, of course, of maybe working with municipalities to provide a service similar to that to all the people who have septic systems, on the condition that they buy in and he was thinking that that would be able to bring it down to about $60 per household over a three-year period. And when you think of the cost of replacing septic systems, which has risen dramatically and with the regulation we have now on septic systems - in the past, when I bought my house, they were dumping the laundry effluent into the ditch by the road and I put a stop to that - but with our regulations, septic systems are far more expensive than they were before and that question has been raised here about the cost of septic systems, which is difficult for a new homeowner. Difficult for some people. I think it would almost be like an insurance system for septic systems, you'd pay $60 every three years and you'd have your septic system pumped out, and that's his vision. Now we're a long way from adopting that, but it makes some sense to me, actually because of the cost of a broken septic system.
We have the home assessment plan in place. A $1.7 million program, which I just announced recently and part of that program is to help assess the health of septic systems and in assessing the health of septic systems, if the septic system is broken, there's a $3,000 grant toward fixing that septic system. Now if it's only to fix the septic system, $3,000 is a fair chunk of change, but if it's to buy a new septic system, it's not. So anything we can do to help people keep their septic systems in good working order and save money and save them from leaking into the environment and causing problems is something we need to look at.
So we've been looking at the truck and it's going to the South Shore next and I'd like it to come up to the Valley. I don't seem to have any clout on that, for some reason or other. I've asked several times, but I just can't seem to get the truck to go up to Kings County. But I appreciate the opportunity to speak about that issue here because maybe it will get up to Kings County some time.
Also, on the landfill, I do want to compliment you because Guysborough does have a state of the art landfill and Warden Hines and his CAO Dan MacDougall have been very good to work with on the landfill. As you say, it was quite a project for a small municipality
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to take on but I think it's a success story that they're quite proud of and that has been good for the municipality. Warden Hines and the CAO Dan MacDougall had been excellent to work with in our department and certainly I heard from Warden Hines about Keltic a few times although he was fairly gracious and gave me the time I needed to make a decision on that. On the landfill, he has been very good to work with and I think it has been a win-win for everybody.
MR. CHISHOLM: As I said, they're very proud of the operation that they have going there. The Premier and I were there, probably about three or four months ago, so they are very proud of that operation. That dewatering truck - I guess it's what they call it, that one that's in here - I think they got it in Norway, this technology came from Norway?
MR. PARENT: Yes, it's a Norwegian company that we're dealing with and that's the technology they have there. It has a lot of potential and as I said, Robert's plan which he has talked to me about makes some sense. If we could get everyone to buy in then we could use technology like that to make sure that septic systems were pumped on the schedule they're supposed to be pumped on which would save the environment because we wouldn't have as many faulty septic systems, and save people money. The dewatering truck is one of those innovations.
When the previous member talked about innovations and the need to innovate I couldn't agree with him more. That's one of the things I've been pushing as aggressively as I can, that if we're moving to an environmental economy we need to innovate and we need to be first in with many of these things and develop them. We're doing that with many projects but we can always do more - innovate, innovate, innovate.
MR. CHISHOLM: I guess the issue with pumping out septic systems by municipalities, with this truck the municipalities in the province or the regions would probably have to come onside in order to make that viable.
MR. PARENT: The municipality would have to agree. We're also trying to see if at some stage we could get a plan like that, the municipalities would buy in to it, that we could build the trucks here in the province so we would have that added benefit. On almost everything we do in the department on the environmental side, we have to deal very closely with the municipalities. While we mandate certain things the municipalities are the how-to on it oftentimes. So there is a very good working relationship with the municipalities but we couldn't impose that as a department, it would have to be in consultation with the municipalities. I know that discussion has been going on as to whether municipalities see this as something that's valuable to them and whether it might be able to be a model that could be incorporated. So it's not something that's on the horizon right away, but it's certainly worth discussing. You raised the issue with the dewatering truck and I see it as something, with the sky-rocketing cost of new septic systems, that can be a win-win for everybody.
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MR. CHISHOLM: I know in an area like Guysborough County and the eastern shore of my riding, to get a septic system pumped is quite expensive. This past summer I've done my own, I had to get somebody to dig up the top of it but I got a little smart. I put one of these culvert crocks on the top, a 24-inch crock with a cover on it and everything. But it is very expensive and if there was I'd certainly be in favour of the municipality charging so much a year, maybe every third year, whatever it would be, to come have my system pumped out.
MR. PARENT: I think a lot of people would be.
MR. CHISHOLM: I think the closest one for me to Goshen, Guysborough County would be Antigonish, the next closest available one would be in Pictou County up in the Thorburn area. Just to get to my place would be one and a half hour's run either way. There's a lot of people that are a lot worse off than I would be in that situation. If they were travelling from Larry's River or anywhere down along that shore, even into Hazel Hill and the Canso area, it is very expensive and I think anything we can do to get that program going with the trucks, similar to what we have seen, would be great.
The second generation landfills, you say there are seven, where were they again?
[5:30 p.m.]
MR. PARENT: There's West Hants, Queens, Chester, HRM, Cumberland, Colchester and Guysborough. I certainly would like to visit the Guysborough one in the summer. We have that noted down. I have visited the West Hants one and the Cumberland one so far.
MR. CHISHOLM: Another issue that I've thought about, being the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, some of the rivers that we have, for example, the St. Mary's River - does the Department of Environment and Labour have any monitoring programs that they do along rivers such as the St. Mary's River or the West River in Antigonish as to - I know inland fisheries do some of that work, but I was just wondering if Environment and Labour does?
MR. PARENT: We don't have anything on St. Mary's River right now. We do monitor rivers in conjunction with Environment Canada for various aspects of the health of the river. The member for Pictou East has been after me to get a monitor moved from a location where we monitor in his area and I think we're going to be looking at doing that.
If St. Mary's River is a river you feel is under stress or it's changing in terms of the pollutants that are in it that you want monitored, we might want to get that on the list of monitoring that at some stage.
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We're working along with Natural Resources with various groups. I was just talking to a person on Saturday on a salmon river up the Eastern Shore, down in Clare they're working on the Salmon River, on de-acidifying that river so that the salmon will come back. Many of our rivers had good salmon, as you know, and unfortunately with acid rain, a lot of the PH was just too low for the salmon to live. This particular river is now up to a level to where salmon can live, whether the salmon will actually come back, we're not sure.
The one in Clare area is quite interesting; it's an interesting partnership. The cement dust from Lafarge is used by the salmon fishing recreational association down there to de-acidify the river and then the school children at the Clare École Secondaire raised small salmon in the school which then restocked the river.
If St. Mary's is a river that's under stress - and this is one of the reasons why the water strategy which I just unveiled on Friday, we spend about $10 million through the department on various aspects of water. But, in my opinion, at least, we don't have as good a handle a on the water situation in Nova Scotia as we should. We want to be able to assure Nova Scotians of the health of their aquifers, of what's happening with their ground water, river flows - both for recreational purposes, drinking water purposes, for industrial purposes. We depend upon water in so many different ways for the health of our economy that as a province we need to, I think, have a complete picture on water. I have stated in several places and I'll state it again, that water is going to be to the 21st Century what oil was to the 20th Century. I remember listening to a program on the BBC World News where they were talking about Nepal having discovered a $140 billion resource that India was willing to pay for and I thought, my goodness, have they struck oil in Nepal, but it wasn't oil at all, it was water, because vast parts of India don't have access to water.
So for recreational, St. Mary's would be - I assume you're asking for recreational purposes and certainly we're very interested in that, but we're also interested in industrial purposes. Keltic, for example, is going to need a lot of water. So we need to understand and we need to be able to know when our aquifers can replenish properly. We have a drinking water strategy in place, it started in 2002, and we're coming to the end of implementing that. So we want to move to this larger vision on water for its recreational uses, industrial use, the effect of climate change on water.
When you look at every book I've read on climate change, the cover has this dried out field somewhere - I mean The Weather Makers by Flannery, another one I have. Water is the most important commodity really when you think about it and it's something that we all enjoy for personal use, drinking water, but it's something that I think we've taken for granted. Some of our rivers on the flow, what's happening is too much water being taken out. What would recreational life be in Nova Scotia without our lakes and rivers, right? So if you want, we've noted down, that if the St. Mary's River is a river we should be monitoring, we do that with Environment Canada and perhaps we should get it on a list sometime.
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MR. CHISHOLM: I think we would certainly, in the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture, if it's an inland fishery, we would want to be part of that as well. We would be prepared to work with you, my staff would work with your staff.
MR. PARENT: And we work on the intertidal zone, too, but your department is the lead on that basically because that's another important area in terms of water - the health of the environment and the health of the fisheries.
MR. CHISHOLM: Down in certain areas around the St. Mary's River there are fairly good size farming operations that go on there and I guess there's some concern there's maybe some runoff from agricultural land and that sort of thing as well. So some of the people have a real interest in the St. Mary's River and there's quite a number of them down in that area who are quite proud of that river. As you know, it's one of the best salmon rivers in the province and known worldwide, running pretty close to the Margaree River where they have done extremely good work - you know, the community there that operated the Margaree salmon hatchery. So anything that we can do to make sure that that river is clean and kept as good as it possibly can be, we want to do it.
When you talk about the water strategy, just where is that? You had a press conference the other day.
MR. PARENT: About the water strategy?
MR. CHISHOLM: Yes.
MR. PARENT: It will be a three-year strategy studying various things over the three years and at the end consulting with Nova Scotians to bring forth a strategy for all Nova Scotia. What I found interesting is that we have been working on moving forward with a water strategy for some years and we have various parts of it in place. We have, for example, 23 monitors across the province monitoring aquifers. We have these water flow monitors on various rivers. So we have parts of it in place and we finally decided that we should launch a provincial water strategy as a whole. What I found interesting is the decision was made without knowing the federal government also had come to the same conclusion and in their new budget they've put in quite a chunk of money to deal with a comprehensive water strategy and they've clearly seen that this is a frontier that they have to work at.
In regard to agriculture, you mentioned that before, we have, on my river, the Cornwallis River, we've been working with the farmers and Agriculture on proper buffering between the farm and the river so that the nutrients don't run off into the river, which can kill the river quite quickly, and the Cornwallis River was one of the worst rivers in Canada. Thanks to some of that work, it now is coming back. That is the nice thing about rivers as opposed to lakes, rivers, particularly if they're faster flowing, will recover faster.
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I had the privilege, as Minister of Environment and Labour, of going to a meeting in New Brunswick at a very famous salmon river. I had never been fly fishing before for salmon. What was interesting is that they are clear-cutting right to the edge of that river and yet that river brings in millions and millions of dollars into the economy of the province. So I think we need to be very cognizant that the decisions we're making on the one hand don't hurt our fishery, our recreational fishery, our salmon fishery, our trout fishery on the other hand because these are not just recreational activities for Nova Scotians but they are also economic generators, particularly in northern New Brunswick they have some salmon rivers that bring people from all over the world. So it is a shame that in Nova Scotia some of those rivers have been lost and we need to bring them back and no one ever really knows if, once it is lost, whether it can be brought back, so the best thing is to not lose it in the first place. I appreciate your comments.
MR. CHISHOLM: Another issue, we talk about the water strategy, rural Nova Scotia, areas like Guysborough County, Eastern Shore, Inverness, Richmond, Shelburne, you could go right around the province, residential wells, people with just a dug well, is there any mechanism in the water strategy or is there any mechanism in place to allow for testing of those wells?
MR. PARENT: Yes, the Environmental Home Assessment Plan that we put out - a multi-million dollar plan - is to help people in the testing of their wells, to give them information in terms of water conservation and the testing of oil tanks because one of the problems that a lot of people have is that if they have a faulty oil tank or septic system, it can cause a lot of contamination quickly and get into the water system and then cause health effects. So we have a couple of programs on that. The latest one available is a $2 million program, roughly. I asked about the uptake on that and it has been quite phenomenal. The letters we've gotten back - I have some of them in my office - in terms of people being grateful for the work that we've been able to do on that.
About 40 per cent of Nova Scotians get their drinking water not from municipal systems but from wells and I'm one of them, and I assume you're one as well. So the department is concerned about how we can help well owners. It is a slightly different challenge than working with municipal units to get in water treatment facilities and the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund, the federal fund has been targeted mainly for green technologies. We need to help well owners and that's why we were very glad to put in place this multi-million dollar plan and we hope to do more of it because our efforts to date have been concentrated mainly - there's a cookie, I see the honourable member is eating a cookie.
This honourable member was not allowed to eat a cookie. More seriously, we have to do mo