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MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call this meeting to order, with the Minister of Immigration. The time is now 6:09 p.m.

The honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.

MS. MARILYN MORE: Madam Minister, may I start off with congratulating you on your two new positions as minister. I'm pleased to see you back as the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. I'm going to start my questioning off on the Status of Women, and perhaps halfway through I'll turn over to the Senior Citizens' Secretariat.

As we're all well aware in this room, the reality of being a woman in Nova Scotia is very different from the experience of being a man in Nova Scotia. The work of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women has indicated this many times over the years. You've certainly documented well, the economic inequalities between women and men. I don't think it's a surprise to anyone that analysis has shown that women in Atlantic Canada have the lowest incomes across Canada. Women in Nova Scotia are less likely to be employed than men, especially in rural Nova Scotia. Women are more likely to be in part-time, seasonal or lower-paying jobs, which really impacts on their security when they're older and in the retirement phase.

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Your reports have shown that being a woman in Nova Scotia, there's a higher risk of violence. There are greater expectations around unpaid assistance and caregiving responsibilities. But I guess the one that bothers me the most is the disproportionate negative impacts of public policy on women compared to men. If there's any theme throughout my questioning, it's going to be around the need for the advisory council to insist that every piece of legislation, that every policy adopted in this province resulting from government action, has to have a gender lens on it.

If you just take, for example, the transition a number of years ago about early hospital discharge. Sending people home - initially, the principle was a good one. It was recognized that people recover faster and better in their own home. But I think the unintended consequence was that the caregiving impact, the burden of it, rests more on women than men in the province. When you look at the lack of a systematic affordable child care system in our province, it impacts women more than men. I could go on and on and on, which I won't.

I guess my point is, everything I've seen suggests that the advisory council is doing a great job in terms of researching and analyzing the reality and the challenges facing women in Nova Scotia. But that information, that analysis is not leading to political decision-making and women-friendly public policy in this province. We still have huge gaps in access, adequacy of programming and equity between men and women.

My first question to the minister is, what can the advisory council do to convince the government that it has to address the gender imbalance that we have in Nova Scotia in terms of opportunities and quality of life.

HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: Thank you for the question. You've raised a lot of good points here today. Gender-based analysis has been on the forefront. I've attended many conferences across this country with the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. It's always one of the issues that is on the forefront, and one that receives a lot of recognition. Having said that, when decisions are made, I would like to think that, yes, I do look at it with that gender-based lens on, and I will continue to do that.

The Advisory Council on the Status of Women definitely is advancing very good information, very good statistical information that is considered in the policy-making in this province. Now I know, to your point, it may not always seem that way, but it definitely is a factor when decisions are made and will continue to be a factor. Now, are we doing everything right? Is it perfect? No. Maybe we do need to do more in this end, and looking at the statistics that I read in my opening remarks and that have been provided to me by the advisory council, yes, we have a long way to go yet. We will continue to advance the concerns and work with the statistical information to make sure that it is getting back.

MS. MORE: I guess I might suggest, Madam Minister, that it's not just your responsibility. There really needs to be a formal process whereby policies among all

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departments, that policies and potential legislation, are screened, whether it's done by the advisory council and staff or whether there's some other mechanism that's brought into place. I think women in this province deserve to know when new legislation and policies are being considered that it's not going to impact on them more negatively than another group of people.

Let me just give a few examples, and perhaps we could just go through them. The advisory council itself has raised the issue of women's representation on the provincial ABCs - the agencies, boards and commissions - that there are many more men appointed to those ABCs than there are women. My next question is, does the advisory council track the appointments to the agencies, boards and commissions on a regular basis?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we do. I guess I would like to comment further. Watching these committees being appointed and so on, it's very important that we get the message out to women in this province that they need to apply, that they need to put their names forward. A lot of times when these appointments are made and when we look at the balance that we have, the gender balance on our ABCs, a lot of times we do not have those options before us. Women need to step up to the plate, as women need to in the political forum, too.

The representation that we have in the Legislature now is the strongest that we've had, and I welcome that. Sitting as the lone member on government side for two years, it definitely is nice to see two other members here. When you look across government, I believe our percentage now is at 17 per cent. We started out at 12 per cent and we're up to 17 per cent. I accredit a lot of this to the campaign school that we've been holding in the province. We've held it for two years, in partnership with Mount Saint Vincent University.

It was a very good, non-partisan campaign school that allowed women in this province the opportunity to come in and see firsthand what the exposure would be in public life. They had a lot of wonderful opportunities to do media scrums, to run an actual campaign. They were put right in the forefront, and they were helped along the way. We had excellent people involved and I know you were involved; you were at these meetings, as were other female MLAs in the province. It was good to see. It's very good to see the representation that we do have now. Yes, we do need to get the message out. Women are very active, they're active in other levels, we just need to get them to step up another level. When we look at school board representation, and even at the municipal level, the percentage of women at that level is greater than it is here. Again, it's definitely a time commitment - there's a lot of things that factor into why women put their name forward and why they don't. Again, we definitely need to increase the number of women who are on ABCs, but we need them to apply for these positions.

MS. MORE: I think part of the problem is women approach these things in a different way than men. I don't think our current process of just advertising for appointments on the

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agencies, boards and commissions will actually ever create equity on those boards. Just let me give you an example - from my own experience, women are less likely to see an opportunity and say, oh, I can do that better than anybody around me, I should push forward and put my name forward or something like that. Women need to be asked directly, they need to be coached, they need to be mentored. Their confidence has to be built. I do agree with you that the campaign schools have been very good. Certainly within each of our Parties, we also have more informal campaign school opportunities for potential candidates, as well.

Men will see an opportunity and say, I can do that. They have the confidence to step forward. So I guess what I'm suggesting is that if the process for making the appointments and advertising for the appointments was changed or screened by the advisory council, to see if it could be made more women-friendly that we would end up getting more women applying for those positions. Or, on the other hand, the government could say, automatically, 50 per cent of all appointments on these ABCs are going to be women. That would certainly force people to view it in a different way. Perhaps women who have reached leadership positions in community groups as volunteers or staff people in the voluntary sector, could be encouraged to apply for some of these positions. I think if we continue in the way that we've been going, we're going to continue to have the same results and they're not satisfactory.

I guess I'm asking, why can't the advisory council demand gender equity on the agencies, boards and commissions, and offer some suggestions how the process for advertising and filling those positions could be changed to make them more friendly to women in this province?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Looking, again, at the ABCs in the province, we definitely need to encourage more women to apply - you're absolutely correct. At a forum that we held at Dalhousie University two years ago to encourage women to get involved in politics, we sat down and we looked at the involvement that the women present had in different community organizations. It was unbelievable, the amount of credentials that they brought to the table, yet they didn't feel as if they were qualified to put their names forward to sit on a board or to offer for public life. At that point in time, they definitely were encouraged to come forward.

Yes, we need to get that message out there. What measure that takes, how we do that - there are different ways that it could be approached. Now, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women definitely does put information forward, and suggestions on - they have worked with the ABCs and we will continue to do that. Yes, we would definitely like to see a gender balance on our agencies, boards and commissions in this province. But, no, we are not there, we still have work to do, and we'll continue to work towards that.

MS. MORE: I'd suggest that it's not just something nice to do - that we're actually losing the potential brains, energy, ideas, experience and perspectives of a significant number

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of population by not having a better match, gender-wise, on these committees. That's a loss for all Nova Scotians not just the individuals who might gain from the experience. I'll leave it there.

The next issue I want to use as an example of a possibility for the advisory council to be a bit more proactive is the under funding of community-based groups and organizations in the province, especially those serving women. This really became more severe, I would say, about 10 years ago when the federal funding process changed. I'm just wondering, when it changed from the Canada Health and Social Transfer to the Canada Social Transfer - now the funding that comes down for social programming in our province is not designated money. It doesn't have conditions or standards. It sort of comes in a block sum to the government. It's supposed to be spent, basically, on social assistance and related training on child welfare, civil legal aid, early childhood development and post-secondary education.

But, there's no way of tracking the money to find out where it's spent or how much of it is spent. What happened is a lot of the funding that was provided for community-based organizations was cut and so a lot of those groups have been struggling. I'm thinking of transition houses and women's centres, even the funding for some of the early non-profit child care centres that started back in the 1970s, women's safety programs and it goes on and on and on.

I'm just wondering what role the advisory council currently plays in trying to help get adequate funding for these organizations that serve women in communities.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'd like to start by saying the Advisory Council on the Status of Women is not a funding partner, as you are well aware, but we definitely have worked with the transition houses in this province. I have met with them on several occasions and will continue to do that to advance their concerns back to the table so those concerns are heard.

The council will be meeting with IGA - Intergovernmental Affairs - and Finance, Community Services to see to it on the CST in the upcoming weeks issues so there will be a joint committee struck within government to look at the issues that are surrounding this.

MS. MORE: Of the current discussions happening between the provinces and the federal government, it could be a new threat to even the low level of funding available for social programming in our province. So, you're saying that the advisory council is going to help move that issue forward?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

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MS. MORE: Okay, thank you. Can I ask, do community-based organizations serving women,, besides the transition houses, do they ever approach the advisory council and ask for support with government, with various departments, in terms of funding?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Advisory Council on the Status of Women has very limited funds for sponsoring or doing any other type of programs here in the province. The dollars are mainly used for research to gather data and for the staffing we do have for this. We have posted a campaign school, as I have said in the past, for the last two years. There are two forums being held; as well, we do go out to the communities. We have outreach programs that are held throughout the province and the two outreach branches of the advisory council that we use.

We also have worked with the Women Unlimited to sponsor some of that too. We do provide a minimal amount of funding to some organizations, but we really are not a main funding partner that they would come to receive funds.

MS. MORE: I guess I was thinking more that they might come to the advisory council, because the advisory council understands where the gaps in services are across the province. They might ask for a letter of support to take to another department to get increased funding to cover a particular needed program. I'm thinking, especially about safety programs, family programs, family violence initiatives. Do any of those groups look - because you're doing the research - do they ever look for your support to get funding from another branch of government?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, they do. Yes, we do write letters of support and encourage that funding and we do actually help them write their funding proposals so that assistance is offered to the community organizations of the groups that would be coming forward.

[6:30 p.m.]

MS. MORE: I wanted to bring back the issue of family violence. It's one the advisory council has spent a lot of time, energy and expertise on investigating. Is there a provincial strategy against family violence, or is it individual initiatives looking at certain aspects of the problem?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: At the current time there is no provincial strategy on violence against women in the province. We did several things within the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and through Community Services and other departments.

Looking in the area of violence against women, we did publish the new sexual assault statistics for Nova Scotia illustrating the high rate of sexual assault experienced and the low rate reported. There have been different, other reports that have gone out in relation to this

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with our Book for Girls and for other things that have made more of an awareness-type information, statistical information that has gone out.

MS. MORE: Could that be a role for the advisory council though, to make a recommendation that these things need to be coordinated, that there needs to be sort of an over-arching, comprehensive approach to this? I don't mean just using government resources, but I think there are a lot of initiatives going on through police departments and RCMP services, through transition houses, community organizations. They each seem to be doing a little piece of the action that's required in the community, but again, there are huge gaps there. It needs some overall coordination. Has the advisory council ever made a recommendation that there should be an overall province-wide strategy involving all those different levels of activity?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, at this point I have to say no. But, we do work with the various departments across government. We have sat down at the table with Justice, Community Services, with different departments on different issues whether it's violence, or other issues. We definitely have taken that opportunity and on a regular basis we have been in touch with the Justice Department and so on on a lot of these issues and we'll continue to do that.

Do we need a strategy for violence against women? At this point, I am not sure. There are different ways to approach, but I definitely know we do need to close the gaps you're speaking of, to make sure that whatever system we have in place, that these gaps are definitely limited.

MS. MORE: I don't know the timing, but I remember being an observer at a meeting that - I'm guessing mid to late 1990s - there used to be a family violence prevention initiative. I think it crossed a number of different government departments and I think it was disbanded. I'm suggesting, perhaps, that we haven't made much progress since then and whether or not that's the right model to go back to, but I think it's definitely time to develop a strategy that would involve voluntary sector, government services, business, police, everybody in order to lessen the risk to women in Nova Scotia and to the children. I'll just leave that there.

The other example I want to mention is poverty. As you're aware, the Standing Committee on Community Services hosted a two-day Forum on Poverty last January. It included brainstorming, presentations, and a public hearing. Then the committee met to decide, and pulled out some recommendations they felt were priority issues.

There was a very good presentation from the advisory council, and some short-term recommendations were made to government that we thought might be included in the Spring budget, that would start looking at alleviating some degree of poverty in this province. Those never happened - we got negative responses back from the government. I guess my question

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is, what is the advisory council planning to do about poverty rates in our province, especially as they impact on women considering that the poor in Nova Scotia - most of whom are women - are the poorest in Canada? The two groups of women who are most impacted by this poverty are single mothers - so it also impacts on their children - and also senior women.

It's definitely a connection with the mandate of the advisory council, what can you do to help out?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The advisory council has worked with different programs out there. One of these programs that has been up and running for some time and to try to eliminate women's poverty in Nova Scotia is to get young girls interested in the technology and the trades. This is a program called Techsploration that is introduced at the Grade 9 level to girls. Last year it was expanded to include over 100 students in Nova Scotia. It is a very good program and I guess it's an eye-opener for a lot of individuals who traditionally think, this is the stream you need to go and that you can't deviate from that stream.

Having said that, it opens the doors for a lot of opportunities, and it does open the door for a lot of seats in this province in community colleges and so on, that they could be interested in. Another area is Women Unlimited which brings low-income women into community colleges and it gives them the opportunity to enter into a trade and it also guarantees them employment at the end of entering into that trade.

I know the program has gotten off the ground in Bridgewater. There are 17 women who have enrolled in the program and it will be getting off the ground here in HRM this Fall. That's a very welcoming program and one that I believe will grow in this province and definitely will help in eliminating some of the poverty against women at this point in time.

We also, as an advisory council, have provided information to Labour Canada to the Department of Environment and Labour on the minimum wage Act and definitely those submissions go on a regular basis when they are being reviewed. We will continue to do that.

So, there are various programs that the Advisory Council on the Status of Women are involved in in trying to end poverty.

MS. MORE: I appreciate hearing about those and I do believe that there's probably 5 per cent of women in trades in Nova Scotia, so that's certainly a good place to start. There is so much more that needs to be done. I guess my frustration comes out in - you know, the advisory council is able to make significant, small baby steps in some of these directions. Somehow we need to kick-start every single department in government to be doing the same and much, much more.

Just to give you another example, the policies from the Department of Community Services disproportionately, negatively impact on women and I'll give just two examples.

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In 2001, 23 per cent of all Nova Scotian families were headed up by single mothers. Many were on social assistance, and yet we have Community Services policies that say that single parents - most of whom are women - are not able to take educational or training programs that are longer than two years in length. In fact, I'm hearing now that the caseworkers have been encouraged to sort of stream those women into even shorter programs. It's not creating any way for women to get out of the poverty cycle.

The other policy that really, really upsets me is that the department forces single moms to go back to work when their child turns one. In fact, they start agitating when the child is about six months old - you have to get out there, you have to find a job. Unlike other provinces, which don't have that requirement or it starts at a much later date - three years or six years of age. I think Nova Scotia is only one of three provinces in Canada that forces mothers into the workforce when they're single mothers. Alberta, I believe, is one province and also P.E.I.

Those are policies of the department of government that is supposed to be helping women move on with their lives, to get education, to improve their parenting skills and yet, the government itself, through these policies, are creating a no-win situation for these families. So, what can the advisory council do when they know from their experience, from what they're hearing, from the consultations from their research, that these policies are wrong? How do you get them changed? How do you pass on that information, the dangerous consequences to these policies?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Many Nova Scotians could benefit from post-secondary education, but it is especially true for women. A woman's chance of having stable, well paid work increases dramatically when she has post-secondary education. But when we're talking specifically about policies within the Department of Education and the Department of Community Services, it's not really the Advisory Council on the Status of Women to create those policies.

Having said that, the statistical information is always available and made available to these departments for them to review. But those are questions that would be best addressed to the Minister of Education or to the Minister of Community Services.

MS. MORE: The reason I'm bringing them up tonight, though, is because this points to the need for a gender lens on these policies and on these pieces of legislation. I think it is the role of the advisory council to demand that. Otherwise, we're going to continue to force women in our province into this continuing cycle of poverty, lack of education.

Your own research shows that women with a degree generally make as much as a man who graduates from high school. So women need even more education in order to make the same amount of money as a less educated man. If you're responsible for one, two or more

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children, all the more reason that you need the best possible education. Yet, our government has policies that restrict that opportunity.

I guess the examples I'm giving are not to reflect negatively on the advisory council, but I guess I'm suggesting that if the advisory council pushed for a gender-based analysis of programming, of policies, of legislation in this province that are initiated through government, that could be the largest single positive impact on women's lives in this province. It's terrible to think that for some women, their worst enemy is their own government. How can we turn that around? I think the role of the advisory council is to at least discuss the possibility of a gender lens and look at the benefits that it could provide.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, the role of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women is definitely to advance equality, fairness and dignity to all women in this province. Through the work that the advisory council does do, that information is provided back to the departments; the departments look at that information and factor that in to policy and decision making when that happens. Is there still more work to do? Yes, there is and we will continue to work to see that equality is met across government.

MS. MORE: Well, if the advisory council won't push for a gender lens, might I suggest Plan B, which might be an annual report card on the progress that government is making towards some specific objectives to reduce women's poverty and to improve their quality of life in this province because somehow we have to come to grasp with the fact that our progress is so slow that it's going to force further generations of children and women into this very undignified, degrading dependency. I think at least a report card where you analyze what progress has been made and where we might be spinning our wheels.

[6:45 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That's very well noted and I do believe that the work that the advisory council is doing in a lot of these areas, again with the Techsploration, with Women Unlimited, with different programs, will factor into that report card and the results changing in the years to come. To say that tomorrow you will see a difference in that report card - no, I could not say that. It will take time, it is something that the advisory council is definitely working towards as government is to see to it that we do not have the poverty levels that we have.

MS. MORE: I want to say that I think you're doing great research and the small starts that you're able to make in a number of these initiatives are worthy. I guess my frustration is that I see the potential for the advisory council to make an even greater positive impact on women's lives in this province and I would hate to lose that opportunity. Thank you very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you going to do any more for the NDP?

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MS. MORE: Yes. I'm going to do a half an hour on the Senior Citizens' Secretariat.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Actually, your time will take you to - if I can read my own writing - you started at 6:08 p.m, there was 3 minutes used last night so 7:05 p.m. will be your final time.

MS. MORE: Okay, thank you. Thank you, minister. I have a special interest in seniors and I've had the pleasure of working alongside the Senior Citizens' Secretariat for probably 15 years before I was elected, so I certainly value the work that it does and want to commend the staff and the volunteers who have moved the interest of seniors forward in our province. This is a new critic area for me and I am very pleased to have it because not only have I worked in the seniors' world for a number of years, but I have a significantly large senior population in my constituency. I have four large social housing facilities with seniors with several hundred tenants; a retirement home; several large apartment buildings in the downtown area that mostly cater to the senior population; and a lot of the new condominiums in the Downtown Dartmouth area have been bought by seniors and retirees. I also have a very large and active seniors resource centre and a very large Dartmouth Senior Citizens Club with rooms and a community centre - they have a couple hundred seniors in their membership as well.

I'm sort of getting reconnected with the issues impacting seniors both in my constituency and across the province. I want to just question you, minister, on the budget line item on grants and contributions. I noticed that about $16,000 was not spent in the amount budgeted for last year and I'm just wondering if you could give me an idea of what the grants and contributions are spent on and why all of it wasn't spent?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The regular grants that are given out on an annual basis were all given out. There is some funding there to allow people to apply for additional grants and there was a surplus in that fund this year.

MS. MORE: What did the grants go towards though? What are they for?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Some of those grants would go towards the 50-plus Expo that is sponsored. Also, if there would be a community organization or someone out there wishing to put together a document or to do some work in relation to seniors - that funding is available to them if they apply through the secretariat.

MS. MORE: I have several areas that I wanted to pursue and with time being so short I think I'll have to pick my priorities here. I've had discussions with the executive director and other staff at the Senior Citizens' Secretariat over the years because again, just like I have my own vision of what the Advisory Council on the Status of Women could be doing, I have my own vision of what the Senior Citizens' Secretariat might be doing. While I recognize the way that they involve and consult with seniors around the province is excellent,

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I think there's a gap there in that we require that community structure - those community- based organizations and groups that are actually providing grass roots, front-line services to seniors - somehow, we have to recognize that it is a significant way for the government and the secretariat to make sure that their objectives are met.

I guess I'm wondering what role you view for the Senior Citizens' Secretariat in supporting those community-based programs and services?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, being the first minister appointed as Minister for Seniors I definitely welcome the opportunity to work with the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and to work with the different organizations throughout this province. It definitely will be a building year to put the department and the individuals together to see to it that we do have that connection with all Nova Scotian seniors so that we will work with the secretariat but I see there being a very important role to play with the various organizations throughout this province so that they do have a voice.

MS. MORE: Well, I guess what I'm suggesting is that there are seniors clubs and organizations that some of them are advocates. They get involved in and lobby on particular issues and they have their networks, their way of bringing resolutions to the floor and whatnot but there's also a significant body of community-based organizations, some of which are led by seniors but many aren't, that provide day to day programs and services for seniors. This would include groups like the VON visiting programs; the daily telephone calls; the RCMP safety coordinators, or whatever they're called; the senior centres; the alternative transportation programs that serve not only persons with disabilities but also seniors - Meals On Wheels. Those kinds of organizations which usually involve seniors as volunteers or on their board of directors but they have a different role to play in terms of improving the lives of seniors in our province. I know that there is some contact with those organizations but I think their survival and their good health has a huge impact on seniors in our province. I'm just wondering if there might be a stronger connection and role of the secretariat in terms of those sort of action oriented programs rather than the seniors' advocacy groups if I could put it that way.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I definitely see my role as being able to coordinate and meet with these individuals across the province. When you look at the valuable work the VON is doing with offering the Meals on Wheels program with the check-in program that they do have and also with the adult daycare that I know they're offering now in my own home community and it's a very good program. Yes, a lot of times we do have a lot of seniors volunteering for seniors, absolutely. If we look at our volunteer sector in this province you would see that the largest percentage of volunteers that we have in Nova Scotia is from that group. Definitely their voice needs to be heard, they need to be able to be represented and in my role as Minister of Seniors, I definitely look forward to working with all these groups throughout the province.

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MS. MORE: That sector is somewhat at risk. Our volunteers are getting older; their health and other situations prevent them from giving as much time, energy and money as they might want to an organization. As you know, in rural Nova Scotia a lot of the younger people who would normally take over those volunteer positions are moving out - out migration - and so it forces more of that community work on the senior population. A lot of the organizations are running into funding problems; certainly the return of a sort of revamped but New Horizons program is going to help in terms of the federal funding. Do you think there might be a role for the Senior Citizens' Secretariat in safeguarding the voluntary sector that's specifically supports seniors in this province?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I definitely think that there should be a safeguard in the programs that these seniors groups and a lot of individuals are offering to this population. Again, the Meals on Wheels, the adult daycare, the check-in program that they have, the different services that a lot of these organizations are offering are very worthwhile programs, and programs that they uptake from the senior population is enormous. When you sit around and you go to an annual meeting of the VON or some of these groups in your own home constituencies you see the benefit and the value that they are providing.

When you look at our young people coming up through the system, no we do not have the volunteer base that we have had in the past. Society is changing, I guess the available time that people have in a day to do their regular day to day work and to have hours left to volunteer is a challenge but looking at the sector, it's definitely an aging sector, we need to encourage people to volunteer and to put that time in. The services that are being offered by these groups are definitely services that I would like to see continued in this province.

MS. MORE: I can see a role for the secretariat to at least be aware of the challenges that sector is facing and perhaps work with them to try to overcome some of the problems and needs.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As Minister for Seniors, I definitely see myself playing a role there.

MS. MORE: Thank you. I want to just touch briefly on the Strategy for Positive Aging. I read the document, it's very good and I think it summarizes very well the challenges facing our older population and impacting on the rest of us as their families. It reminds me a little bit though of some of the conferences that the Senior Citizens' Secretariat hosted back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, on a number of the same themes.

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[7:00 p.m.]

I'm just wondering - we have got to stop talking about some of these things and actually get down to brass tacks and get them done. When will the detailed action plan be available on the positive aging strategy?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, I want to thank you for raising a very important document that was tasked across this province. When you look at the task force on aging, I was able to attend the meeting that was held in my local Legion and definitely went away with a lot of knowledge of what the issues were. Things that I, to that point, was not as up to speed as what I probably should have been and it did open the door for a lot of opportunities for people to have their voices heard. That information will be released; it is going to be worked on this Fall with a release date in the Spring.

MS. MORE: In my quick reading through of the document, I just pulled out four issues that I think could be fast tracked by the government and certainly provide credibility that it was serious about moving ahead on some of these things. One of them was the recommendation that there be more senior discounts for fee-based government services - I don't think that has to wait for a strategy and an action plan; improving provincial labour standards regarding retirement benefits for part-time, seasonal and casual workers, most of whom are women and often older women; assisting with the burden of cost for medications, assistive devices, mobility aids, et cetera, that would help low-income families provide care at home for seniors; and the other one I just quickly pulled out is the one about reforming adult guardianship legislation. While usually I'm in favour of having a comprehensive - you know, let's see what we're dealing with, move-ahead approach - I think each of those alone would have a significant impact on the number of seniors in our province. I'm just wondering, would the secretariat consider pulling out some of these sort of quick, easy recommendations and get them started right away?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are some things that will be moved forward on right away, but the costing and making sure that everything is in place to move forward with the others will be put in place this Fall and will be released out in the Spring when there's more research done on those initiatives. We will be moving forward on some of the initiatives that was in the task report that came back on aging.

MS. MORE: Are we anticipating some of these changes could happen as early as this Fall?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm anticipating that some of these changes have already been implemented and will continue to be implemented as we can. I guess through the World Health Organization, we are working to make sure that our communities are age-friendly and we will continue to do that, and also the guardianship question is definitely something we are looking forward to move as quickly as possible.

[Page 437]

MS. MORE: I just want to finish up, and I won't have time to ask any questions on this. I do have some concern about the way in which the secretariat has changed from a secretariat of ministers to a single minister. This is no reflection on you, Madam Minister. I guess I am just worried that the research - looking at those practices in other provinces and countries - consultation with seniors, I haven't seen any evidence that happened. I am nervous that this was sort of a campaign promise that was then enacted, rather than a carefully thought out look at what is necessary for the Senior Citizens' Secretariat to move ahead in a modern age, in terms that will most benefit or best benefit the seniors of our province.

I wonder if you could, in closing, just quickly comment on how much notice - was the secretariat itself consulted about the change?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member's time has elapsed but I will ask the minister to reply, if she likes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Moving forward with the commitment for a dedicated minister for seniors is definitely a step in the right direction to give seniors that opportunity. The secretariat definitely will play an important role in that, as will the ministers who have previously been on here. There are a lot of programs offered to seniors through the different service providers, so they definitely will play a key role in advancing seniors' issues and so on, across this province.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: I am going to start with immigration, if I could. That is who we were talking to yesterday. Those questions were happening yesterday when I was cut off.

I wanted to pick up where we left off yesterday. We were actually at the point of talking about some of the development grants, I think is the line item that I was exploring with you. In your description of some of the expenditures, you talked about a category called development grants. My question was, what are those grants for? Who is getting them? What difference are they making in communities was really where we were at, so we could get some sort of a sense. I believe you finished by telling us that there were many successes but we didn't get to anything specific, so I am wondering if you could pick up right there.

Perhaps you could remind me, as well, how much was given in development grants, just the value of them.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This is last year's funding you are asking? Or the proposed budget?

[Page 438]

MS. WHALEN: Well, we were talking about what actually is going to be funded under that. I would like to know what is proposed for this year. You could tell me what was done last year but I am exploring what it went to last year because that is probably indicative of where you are headed and the types of projects that you will be looking for.

MR. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The total settlement allocation for this year would be $1.798 million, which was an increase of $439,000. Now of that money, the organizations that received funding last year in this province for settlement programs, there were nine different organizations that received funding, of which 30 programs were funded. They included everything from accent reduction to English-as-a-second-language tutoring, depending on what they applied for at that time.

Now looking at the total grants for assistance in 2005-06 was $1.549 million and the breakdown was 13 development and 6 integration; there were 11 language training sessions for adult; and we also, as I mentioned before, provided $250,000 to the schools for English as a second language.

MS. WHALEN: That is an aside, I will talk about that separately.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, and we provided $42,000 for funding to target initiatives and other projects.

MS. WHALEN: Would you be more clear on what that means, $42,000 to fund target initiatives and other projects. It is not very clear.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, that would come through - the Atlantic Immigration Conference received $6,000; the Centre for Canadian Language Benchmarks, $5,000; and the Federation acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse funding transferred to the office, $31,000. There was an event, a citizenship ceremony that was held in my own home community last July 1^st that received some funding and an event at Pier 21.

MS. WHALEN: If I could say, the number of those sort of events sound a little bit like protocol or other people's responsibility and not that of the Office of Immigration. I don't know if you have criteria that would have allowed you to make that allocation. I know there are small amounts in the scheme of things as well, but I do question why we have literally, I would guess there are dozens of swearing-in ceremonies, citizenship ceremonies in the province every year. They happen across the province in many different areas and I wonder why there would be an involvement of the Office of Immigration in one.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This is the only citizenship ceremony that was held outside of the HRM area in 2005-06. It was a very small budget amount of $300 that was contributed towards that.

[Page 439]

MS. WHALEN: And it was in Bridgewater?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it was.

MS. WHALEN: I am surprised that there are no others taking place outside of HRM but I suppose I am living here so I am most aware of the ones that happen here.

Again, with the connection to the Federation acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, what would that event have been?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess I will correct myself, that money was funded through CIC.

MS. WHALEN: The $300?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The $5,000.

MS. WHALEN: For the Nouvelle-Écosse?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Sorry, $31,000 Nouvelle-Écosse.

MS. WHALEN: That was bigger.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: So that didn't come out of your budget at all?

MS. BOLIVAR GETSON: It was a flow-through is what it was - an in and an out.

MS. WHALEN: Something like that, I am sure it was a celebration of some sort.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This was to attend immigration fairs.

MS. WHALEN: In other countries?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In other countries, yes.

MS. WHALEN: So what I asked yesterday was to try and get specific and we were talking about successes and whether there were specific programs. I did indicate - I know the office is very new and you have made tremendous strides in just over a year.

A lot has taken place administratively and I don't need to go over that but I do commend you for all of that. But I said on the ground, in communities, we are looking for

[Page 440]

programs to make a difference in the integration and in the welcoming of people. That is what has been pointed out time and again, lots of studies available showing it is the welcoming communities component that we are sometimes falling short on. We talked yesterday some about jobs as well but if people don't feel welcome, you're not off to a good start. We need programs that are going to start to integrate and knit communities together. I want to know what programs might have been funded last year under the 13 developments, six integration - maybe integration is the category we are looking at - but what programs would be funded, what are you piloting, what are you trying that's going to help us in our communities that I could, as an MLA, start to perhaps urge people to put in an application for? I've asked MISA if they could point out programs that are innovative that we could start up in Clayton Park or in any part of HRM where we have 80 per cent of the immigrants.

I'd like to hear from you, your ideas about something that's going to really advance the cause for these people who are now living in our communities.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would also like to recognize that government this year is putting an additional $439,000 to do just as the member has recognized - the need for more settlement funding to go to our immigrant population to see to it that they do stay in Nova Scotia and that they are able to find fulfilling work and so on.

Some of the organizations, I have a list here with the amount of monies they have received. The Atlantic Metropolis Centre received money to do inventory of research, reports and studies in the Atlantic Region.

MS. WHALEN: That's academic, yes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, and the Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures received funding for English as a second language, tutoring at home and accent reduction programming and accent reduction or modification program. Community Health Information and Interpreting Service was another organization that . . .

[7:15 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: How much did they receive?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They received $10,000. The Colchester Regional Development Agency received $19,000 for immigrant employment survey, entrepreneurship development for newcomers, employer readiness and skills recruitment and community capacity building for education and awareness.

Cumberland Regional Economic Development Agency, as I mentioned yesterday, the RDAs are a key player in the settlement funding. We use this group of organizations throughout the province to meet the needs for settlement funding.

[Page 441]

The Halifax Immigrant Learning Centre received a total of nearly $75,000 of this money.

MS. WHALEN: Which ones are your largest recipients?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Halifax Immigrant Learning Centre and MISA, who received over $600,000 for different programs.

MS. WHALEN: Would it be possible for us to get that list of grants? I think there were questions asked around it yesterday as well from the member for Halifax Citadel. I think it would be useful if we could see it.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, I definitely can provide that information to you.

MS. WHALEN: That would be good. I think what I'm really trying to signal is that we want to see something innovative. I'd like to see it filtering down. I know MISA needs funds to do the programs they're doing and they have a very good reputation not only in Nova Scotia, but farther afield.

At the same time, I feel that there should be programs that are identifying communities and really starting to link the people that live in our communities, the other people that are crossing paths at schools or in other organizations and finding grass-roots ways to knit communities together. I think that it's really going to become a problem if we don't do that. There's evidence of a second generation of young people in cities like Toronto and so on who are not engaged in Canadian life. They're disengaged.

We're just starting on this process here in Nova Scotia and we really want to get that network in place and start to build some strength there. I'm sure you're looking at it in your criteria. Perhaps I could ask here if we could get a copy of the criteria for those grants? Perhaps today you could tell me what the deadline is for grant applications? Or, have we missed it? Not that I have one.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The deadline for the grants would have been June 30^th gone by.

MS. WHALEN: Last year, I know one of the organizations in my area had put in an application and they were either too late or perhaps didn't quite meet the criteria. It had to do with a community theatre, which is being developed in Halifax West High School but it's really a theatre for the whole western part of Halifax. Their business case is developed around the need to provide meeting and performance space for different communities - immigrant communities, really. Would that be something that would qualify in future?

[Page 442]

That criteria may change, but I think that supporting cultural opportunities is very important as well. I'm going to go one step further and ask you if you have any role to play in supporting other infrastructure in communities - for example, recreation or community centres that might come up - or could you lobby or give a voice to that when we have communities with a lot more immigrants?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We do work with the departments in government to see to it that these concerns are addressed through the Office of Health Promotion or through Tourism, Culture and Heritage. But we do not directly fund recreation centres.

MS. WHALEN: I realize you wouldn't do that, but through Sport Nova Scotia, they seem to receive money called Strategic Initiative Funds. Other departments as well receive some money from Strategic Initiative Funds. They're actually pointed out in the Auditor General's Report because they're not tied to the normal estimates, they don't appear before us in terms of where they're going. They're a little bit like the Industrial Expansion Fund which has a bit of leeway on how they're spent.

We're very delighted that some of them go to recreation facilities and that's where the government has found money for centres in Berwick and support for a pool in Sydney and any other recreation that comes up, I imagine. But my question really would be whether or not, if you recognized a project had a particular application that related to immigration, if you could support it? Or maybe be a department that applied for Strategic Initiative Funds.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, we do not provide the direct funding for recreation, but definitely would be very supportive of those initiatives coming forward from another department.

MS. WHALEN: I think there's a trend in a lot of the discussions we have. I know immigration's a little bit different, but Senior Citizens' Secretariat or the Advisory Council on the Status of Women - so many of them seem to have a role that doesn't involve direct hands-on provision of services. I realize immigration works very much through these networks of non-profits and other agencies that are out there. I don't know that they're all non-profit, but I suppose they are between Capital District Health and things like that.

Anyway, it's just a little bit of a trend that often - at least I would think there would be some frustration that you're not able to get hands on and actually deliver some of these programs directly and see the fruition of ideas that you have.

But,you can lobby. I go back to what the member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley pointed out is that there's sometimes a need to challenge the status quo. I do think the fact there's an Office of Immigration has begun to do just that. Again, I want to see some things on the ground and I'm anxious we have programs and that Clayton Park, Cole Harbour

[Page 443]

and Bedford - where there's a lot of immigrants - become the testing ground for these things so we can see what works and start doing them widely.

I wonder, because we're talking about the similarity between the other agencies that fall under the minister's umbrella, if there's any kind of an advisory committee in place to help you as this new department takes shape. We have a strategy in place - a lot of consultation took place around the strategy - has there been any thought to it? Or, do you actually have any kind of an advisory board?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Part of the Immigration Strategy calls for an advisory group to be put in place and that is in our business plan for this year, that it will be put in place and up and running for the next year.

MS. WHALEN: Can I ask if your business plan is available on-line?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it is.

MS. WHALEN: I was looking last night and it's not easily visible. I didn't spend hours on your site, but I'm just wondering if it is. That's an important thing to be able to go over.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: One thing I would like to note is that our Web site is being redesigned so things will be a lot more easily accessible to the general public when they're looking for this information. We do recognize that.

MS. WHALEN: I quickly went to Alberta and Ontario, just as examples, and their sites seemed to be easier to navigate and their information was more easily available. I did want to ask you a little bit about that as well because I think that is important for a lot of people internationally. That could be their porthole to first consider Nova Scotia as a site to come to, so I'm interested in that. What would your plan be, now you say it's in your business plan for this year, would you call for applications for that and would that come through our Human Resources Committee for appointment?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it would go through the regular process and would be part of the Human Resources Committee.

MS. WHALEN: Make sure you ask for some women then while you're at it, that's all.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Immigrant women.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, please, yes - women fitting the right category in criteria, but I do sit on the HR Committee as well and we've had numerous discussions.

[Page 444]

MS. JOAN MASSEY: And so do I.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, that's right, the member for Dartmouth East has raised it on a number of occasions as well, counting the applicants and seeing that we don't always have the representation we need. So I did agree with the comments made earlier around that.

I wanted to ask some about the Cornwallis contract while we still have a bit of time on this subject. I realize that Cornwallis was responsible for only the economic stream of immigration, not for your skilled and the other categories. When I had met with staff from the office earlier this week, I guess - it was just within the week - we talked a little bit about the contract and any obligations that might be remaining with the Cornwallis group and, you know, I think there's a couple of questions around the philosophy. Maybe for background, when Cornwallis was first hired, I wasn't a member at the time but I was by 2003, just after their contract commenced properly, but when I had gone to visit them as an Immigration Critic and when I had originally spoken and the office was new, the philosophy was that by out-sourcing this function, that they performed a lot of duties and it didn't cost the Province of Nova Scotia.

Having visited their office, they certainly, as I mentioned to the executive director, there was a wonderful welcoming centre there. It had computers. It was very comfortable. People who are in the Nominee Program could come in there to do a lot of research. It had a library, it had resources, and it had staff as well who were there to sort of roll out the red carpet and make these economic nominees feel welcome and settled, and just give them somebody to hold their hand which is often missing in government - that nobody has enough time to stop and really hold hands.

I think there was a lot of good in what they were offering. It did not cost the Province of Nova Scotia and, you know, I had questioned as well whether it was the right program and looked at the costs and wondered whether or not the economic nominees were getting value for the money that they were investing here in the province. I think it's worthwhile noticing I had not criticized, in the House or publicly, the program because I did think there was value to Nova Scotia in what we were proposing to do. We've taken pretty much a right turn, or an about turn, and said, okay, we're not dealing with them any more and whether or not that was because of criticism from any other critics, I believe it probably was a little bit of that, but in the meantime we've left the contract and we've dropped Cornwallis completely.

So my question was around whether or not we would not owe Cornwallis some sort of a payment for having interrupted the contract, and I believe that there are a couple of ways of looking at it. It was up for renewal on June 9, 2006, but it says in here that it could be extended and it was up to Cornwallis to extend it or not. That was a copy of the contract I had from some time ago, that I was just able to take it out and have a closer look. It says termination of the agreement could only be made for wilful misconduct, gross negligence, breach of contract, breach of trust, or bankruptcy on the part of Cornwallis. It seemed that

[Page 445]

the further extension, the option to renew for a further two-year period was pretty much up to Cornwallis, subject to the continuation by the province of the program, and you are continuing the program. I'm not a lawyer either so going through contracts isn't my favourite thing, but just looking at that, I think it's in fairly plain English and it does say that. So I really just wanted to discuss with the minister, having made this decision, what will the costs be to Nova Scotia and have we factored it into the estimates since we're talking about money?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would like to back up a little bit in some of the comments that were made in that Cornwallis was not involved in any of the other categories, except for the economic. They were involved in the skilled worker category and the community identified category. Now, looking at our agreement with Cornwallis, it expired on June 30^th and there hasn't been a renewal. The province and the company were unable to come to an understanding that was satisfactory to both. So at this point in time, we will be moving forward. It gives us a timely opportunity to re-examine fees and other aspects of the program and an evaluation of the entire Nominee Program is due in 2007 as part of the agreement with the federal government. So, again, it gives us that opportunity and we will be moving forward. We already have the amount of applications for the 2006 year completed so that it again was a good opportunity to do this at this point in time.

MS. WHALEN: So, you know, I understand that, that you're going to evaluate the program and you're going to bring it in-house, but the question really was, if you couldn't come to an understanding, do you not have a legal obligation to pay them some sort of loss of income, loss of revenue? They invested heavily to develop the network they had to travel, to get the work up and running.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And that was not covered in the agreement. The agreement expired on June 30^th and, again, we'll be moving forward in this direction.

MS. WHALEN: And I'll ask you, do you expect to be challenged in court with that?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, the contract expired on June 30^th. We are working through a transition period with Cornwallis, and we will continue to do that to make sure that there isn't an interruption in the services provided to our nominees.

[7:30 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: Would you describe it then as a mutual agreeable understanding? In terms of ceasing the contract, you couldn't come to an understanding with Cornwallis about continuing, so is it mutually agreeable?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We're definitely working co-operatively with Cornwallis, for a smooth transition at this point in time.

[Page 446]

MS. WHALEN: I read that as stay tuned, so we will. We'll put the contract aside, you know, I think there may be more to it. Going back to the philosophy of it initially, where the decision was that it wouldn't cost us any money, why have you changed in your view of that? What would the minister say to me about why we've dropped the idea of having it be self-sustaining, you know, revenue neutral?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As part of the fee review that was carried out by Global, it did recognize that the fees should be eliminated or looked at in this report. So we have done that, we've gone back and eliminated the fees in the skilled worker category and the community identified category, and we will be working to see to it that we can identify the fees associated with the economic stream.

MS. WHALEN: Do you not see a difference though between the economic stream and the skilled worker stream in terms of perhaps their capacity to pay or their motivation to come here?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When we look at the skilled worker category, it definitely was deemed as being a deterrent for that marketplace and when we look at rural Nova Scotia today, that's one of the largest voids that we have in our province, is our skilled worker category. If we want to see our rural communities and Nova Scotia prosper with our economic development, we've got to make sure that we do have these skilled labourers in place.

MS. WHALEN: Exactly. So given the demographics and the latest labour information about shortages of skilled workers, I think that makes sense. But when you go to the economic category, it was unique because actually looking through the appendices at the back of the final report, under the economic stream none of the other provinces have an economic stream that at least shows up in this comparison of programs offered in all the different provinces. I know it competed in a sense or was similar in a way to the federal scheme to invite entrepreneurs to the country, but even that one actually isn't written in under citizenship and immigration, but it's the only one. So we had something unique and it may have had some real benefits.

I'm sure that the minister read today a letter to the editor in The Daily News, I think is where it appeared, or perhaps the staff did, it was somebody writing to say that actually the economic stream was good as it was, and that people circumvented three to five years waiting in their home country by being willing to invest in this program and come here directly; that at the time, I think you had less than a one year window in order to do the paperwork, and come through. For a lot of people, imagine the cost of three to five years in kind of limbo. We've talked about how difficult it is when people are waiting for all of their applications to come through. That's a benefit.

[Page 447]

If a person were to make an economic decision that I have the funds, I'm willing to enter Canada through that portal and I'll invest and go through the work period, you know, that has some merit. I guess I'm going back to it as policy, would you not have been obliged to look at the benefits as well, not just to sort of react in a hasty way to the fees but to consider whether or not it has benefit?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Looking at the economic stream, we have committed to doing a complete review of the economic stream with the mandate, I guess, of trying to eliminate the fees associated with that. But there will be a complete review done of that program.

MS. WHALEN: The idea of having international immigration where people bring resources and then create jobs, or go into business - it's certainly not a new idea because in the mid-1980s, I worked in Australia as a consultant and I wrote business plans for immigrants. I actually wrote five or six of those - you know, to take people's skills from their home country, talk to them and work with them around an idea that would work in Sydney, Australia, where I was living. At that time they were in stiff competition with Canadians and other countries doing exactly the same thing - trying to attract immigrants.

So, you know, we're not out of step in looking at that, and I guess I would be happy to go on the record saying that we're not out of step and that we should try to be cutting edge because we are suffering and facing - I guess we're not yet suffering, but we are facing a real crunch in terms of numbers for work. We talked about the lack of volunteers, we have talked about the lack of young people in the province. So we really do need to encourage people. I'm not suggesting, you know, maybe these fees were a deterrent, perhaps they were, and maybe your review will show that, but I think you had more than the number of applicants you even expected. In the time that you've been operating, you've doubled the number of immigrants. You've gone up to 400 annually, from 200. So that's a pretty short period of time for a program to get established and double the number allowed.

So it would be surprising to me if you didn't see some success in that program, and now that takes us to the transition to the new program. My questions for that really revolve around your expectations in how you can possibly fill the void that's left by Cornwallis, which did it all, out-sourced and out of your hair, and brought to you, if you go back to the contract, actually brought to you completely vetted and reviewed applications. It says here they would do all of the promotional material, marketing worldwide, to establish a network of agents, screen and qualify all of those nominees, receive and ensure that the applications were complete, and I know that in talking about how the work goes in other provinces, maybe most notably Manitoba, they have stacks of files. A single file can be really thick and they have stacks and stacks of them on the floor and going through all the paperwork required. So this is not an insignificant amount of work that Cornwallis was doing on our behalf. So how are we going to fill in and pick up the pieces and do that with a staff of 13?

[Page 448]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, we do not anticipate adding any resources to the office this year beyond the one additional FTE that is outlined in the budget. We will redeploy some of the individuals whom we do have to make sure that they have good business matches to these individuals who are sitting now waiting to come to Canada.

MS. WHALEN: Could you be more specific about redeploying your current staff - like how you might have to reassign them to different jobs, I guess, and what will they be leaving?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In the past, we had four staff who were dedicated to doing the interviews that were forwarded on from Cornwallis. These interviews have all been done and our applications to date, we will not be receiving any new applications because we have reached our target for the 2006 year, so that these individuals will be working on the files as well as the additional FTE that we do have.

MS. WHALEN: Could you tell me how many staff Cornwallis had in their office?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Cornwallis had 12 staff.

MS WHALEN: And we were quite well known for being timely in our processing at that time with 12 staff, right.

So is it not going to create a backlog? Is there not a fear that you'll have a backlog without adding more resources?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, Cornwallis had 12 staff; I'm not sure how those individuals and what they were all working on. I know that the company had 12 staff working for them.

MS. WHALEN: So maybe on some other assignment of some sort, yes. Well, again, I would just signal that there's a concern that maybe - I'm sure you'll get through this year because you've made a decision not to accept any more applicants. So a lot of them have been screened and some of them would be halfway through being screened but, you know, you'll be in a position where you could probably cope with that. But my concern is again that there's nothing worse than seeing the systems bogged down and take years and years for applicants to come through. I think that once a decision is made in a person's home country to relocate to Canada - you know, that's a big commitment they've made to our country and going through those processes can be really, really difficult on family life when they basically have signaled their intent to leave their home country.

So if we were able to do it in one year, or an 18-month window, that was pretty good, and I would like to see more of that. I know we talked yesterday about the reunification and bringing parents or family members to join you in the country and that, again, can take 10

[Page 449]

years. There was an article I was reading - in fact I think it was the article I referenced yesterday from the newspaper The Globe and Mail, where they said that that was one of the major concerns of newcomers, that it's taking up to a decade to bring your elderly parents. Well, imagine how old they are by the time they come and join you, and the intent was for those people to share their lives with their families. So time is of the essence and I hope that that remains one of your measurements of success in terms of how you manage the department, because I don't think you want to forego that.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Just a comment on that, we do have a target that we intend to meet in 2010 of 3,600, and we'll continue to work towards those goals. We also, when you look at the resources, we do recognize that in another budget year that we will need additional resources to carry this work out but after we do the review on the economic stream of the Nominee Program, we will see more what that will entitle.

MS. WHALEN: Speaking about the economic program again, part of Cornwallis' work was to liaise with the business community and find your matching partners for the companies that would sponsor an immigrant. That actually, again, is an unusual program, it's unique in Canada, but it certainly allowed a newcomer to immediately go to work in a company and get to know people.

Often the match was very good. The companies, you know, were very delighted with the contacts they made, and it was a win-win situation. It's not insignificant that they provided capital to those companies and we hear this with the doctors, for example - why there aren't more mentors for doctors who need mentoring coming in? Well, it cost them time and money. It takes them away from their practice to mentor and it's the same in business. It takes them away from their core business if they're mentoring and helping somebody new. So there is a benefit in doing that and, again, you'll be reviewing the program and perhaps you'll continue along a similar vein, but how are you going to make those contacts now with business, because Cornwallis had a much better network, I think, into the business community?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In order to guarantee that our nominees have a good business match, we did have a committee that consisted of OED, NSBI, Cornwallis and ourselves to make sure that good business matches did happen. When you look at the statistics and our retention rate, we definitely need to guarantee that it is a good business match so that we can retain these individuals here in our province.

MS. WHALEN: So can I ask what will happen to this committee in the next year when they're not active, or will they continue to be active with your 400?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They will continue to be active, probably more so than ever before, because nominees are in the system and will need to be matched up with their business.

[Page 450]

MS. WHALEN: Okay, so we would just expect the committee to no longer have Cornwallis as one of the members, but otherwise it would still be active?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is correct.

MS. WHALEN: Have you put the Office of Economic Development on notice that you're going to be calling on them, and they may need more resources to help?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They're a part of this committee. As it sits right now, Economic Development and NSBI, ourselves and Cornwallis. To think that we will need more staff from OED, I cannot say that at this point in time. We will be working with those departments to see to it that the nominees have a good business match.

MS. WHALEN: Can I ask if they were consulted with the ceasing of the contract with Cornwallis?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those decisions and those talks were between the Office of Immigration and Cornwallis.

MS. WHALEN: They would have had a close relationship as well with Cornwallis, that's why I asked if they had been.

Okay, I just want to ask a couple of other things along international lines. In the way that the program has developed, up to this point, the Nominee Program and we know we're just four years into it, is that right?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Three years.

MS. WHALEN: The agreement was signed in 2002 sometime. Anyway, we're still in a pilot with it. It's growing rapidly. My understanding is, in the number that we've received to date, we have more in the economic stream than in other steams comparatively when you look at other provinces. Could you give me a bit of your analysis of our relative proportion of immigrants?

[7:45 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: If you look at the amount of applications that we do have and the percentages in the 2006 year - 82 per cent were in the economic stream, 8 per cent in the skilled labour stream and 10 per cent in the community identified.

MS. WHALEN: How does it look in other provinces, generally speaking, with their nominee programs, if there is kind of a ballpark or a benchmark?

[Page 451]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In comparison to other provinces, it is 80 per cent skilled worker, and then the breakdown happens from there, and they do not have most of them in economic categories.

MS. WHALEN: So that really would account for why they didn't have the option.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes. They do have an entrepreneur program in a lot of these provinces.

MS. WHALEN: Did this signal any concern for the Office of Economic Development, or for you as the minister? Was that one of the reasons why you wanted to withdraw from Cornwallis and start to perhaps, take away the fees for skilled and put more emphasis on skilled or community identified?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The contract expired on June 30^th, and it gave us a timely opportunity to review the system that we do have in place and look at the economic stream and do that review that we committed to and a review that needed to be done for 2007, for the federal government. So it did give us that opportunity to move forward at this point in time.

MS. WHALEN: Will you have any tracking information to use in your review? I know it's still very new in the program, but will you able to track and look at the retention that came from the economic stream?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It is one of the criteria that we have set up with the federal government that we do track and provide that information.

MS. WHALEN: HRM did their own study on immigration just recently. When I looked at it, it's quite different from the kind of study that was done in terms of our provincial aims and objectives, but it has some really practical ideas that they wanted to do in the near term and the longer term. I wonder if you had been involved in that? Do you recognize that at all? It's their Immigration Action Plan. It's not terribly long, but it did split it into near term and longer term.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We are not directly involved in that paper that was done by HRM. We did attend one of the workshops here.

MS. WHALEN: I'd like to just - while we have the opportunity in speaking to you as the minister of the department, through the Chair. (Interruptions) What I found interesting in their plan was there was a lot about not just talking the talk, but walking it, basically and what could they do within their own organization, within HRM, to show that this a welcoming city, that we recognize diversity and so on.

[Page 452]

Sort of in the same vein, not long ago, I had a discussion with somebody who had worked for the province, he's left the province and now works for the city. He is an immigrant and said he feels much better working for the city, that they have diversity. Actually when I was a city councillor, I remember they did have at least a few times during the year where they celebrate diversity, they write about it in their community - they have a staff newsletter that goes to all HRM employees and there's 4,000 people who work for the city region. What they are including now- and that was one of the recommendations in this, that there be a column that talked about people from other parts of the world that are working for HRM, what do they do, how did they come to be here, sort of celebrate their stories -very practical things making HRM material available in different languages, again, talked about diversity, about helping to break down job barriers.

I think that they've been successful because really you can see a difference when you go there and I think there's an awful lot that needs to be done here. I know the minister was previously the Minister of the Public Service Commission and some of these plans would have to work through that department and I wonder if you had begun to look at them because we have a challenge to start to integrate people in our own workforce. The provincial government is seen as an organization that's pretty hard to get a job with - that's what I hear when people come to see me in my office. Any comments on how we can start to take that? I'm going back to the practical - how can we be more practical with the aims of the Office of Immigration?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess looking back as being Minister for Human Resources - I would like to believe and I really do believe that we did make quite big strides in moving diversity forward within government, with creating a diversity pool, putting criteria in place and trying to be a government that is definitely representative of the community that we serve. We will continue to do that to make sure that the numbers and the percentages that are there show that we are being more representative and we will continue to do that in the future.

MS. WHALEN: I'm going to suggest that perhaps that report be reviewed by the action plan because it's even better than a report. This one actually has action steps and we get a lot of reports coming across all of our desks that are just a lot of research, a lot of background but not action. I would suggest that it's a good thing to look at and that there would be some parallels that you could get some good ideas right there that we could parallel in the provincial Civil Service and that would help.

I know that the hiring even within the Office of Immigration that you've done well, and it was a suggestion that I discussed as soon as the office was announced - let's make sure that in that office when you come through the door that if you speak Arabic or come from another country that you'll recognize diversity right off the bat and not feel like you're up against the wall of Canadian bureaucracy. I think that you've succeeded in your own office so we should acknowledge that before we talk about the rest of the Civil Service.

[Page 453]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, again, I would like to acknowledge that within the Office of Immigration, we are definitely a multicultural organization and there are five different languages spoken within that office and I would also like to recognize the positive work of CNS in that they recently received a diversity award for their part that they are playing within. So those are very good accomplishments and they commend them for that.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, I just wanted to ask you and there's a tie-over - I want to move to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women but just on the immigration side, you did two round tables on women immigrants and I wonder if you could let us know where the results with those round tables are available or give us just a bit of guidance. I don't need to have the full unless there was something very important that came from it. I don't really need too much of an explanation.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They are available in both English and French and we can make those available to you. They are on-line.

MS. WHALEN: So I may find them if I navigate? Maybe you can send me a copy - that would be most appreciated.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'll make sure that the honourable member does have a copy of that.

MS. WHALEN: Thank you very much. Maybe we could just move, I have about 15 minutes left and perhaps we have a few questions for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Thank you and thank you to the staff for coming in again and staying late.

I was wondering if you could introduce the staff who are with you again, just because we haven't crossed paths recently.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, I would introduce Maureen O'Connell who is Acting Executive Director for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and Nicole Watkins-Campbell who is with Communications Nova Scotia, and we have Jackie Ross from CSU.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have about 13 minutes left.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, very good. I wanted to pick up on a couple of the themes that my colleague had started with in the last hour and that is about the advocacy of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the role that you play. First off, I'd like to ask, when was the last time that your mandate and your role was examined?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The mandate is reviewed on an annual basis and we do have 12 council members who review the business plan and the mandate on an annual basis.

[Page 454]

This is something that is not carved in stone, that does not get looked at again but it definitely is something that is ongoing and is reviewed and they do meet on a quarterly basis.

MS. WHALEN: When was the last time that it was altered then, in terms of your missions and values - any documents that talk about what you're there to do?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: As the mission statement has been standard over the years and it's to advance equality, fairness and dignity for all women in Nova Scotia.

MS. WHALEN: I got part of that down last time you said that. When I was looking on the web last night for a couple of other examples of organizations and looking at other provinces, Ontario has a women's directorate which looks like it's more part of the Civil Service, almost like an office within government. It had two very clear aims: one was to improve the economic status of women, you know the inequalities of women; and the second was the elimination of domestic violence . They had that clearly listed right off the bat in the first page - this is what we're here to do. I think they also provide that screen for policy because they're really part of government.

I've always found the Advisory Council on the Status of Women a little bit of a different entity and I was wondering if you could explain a bit about has it ever in the past been more a part of government or more arm's length, or has it always been in this sort of in-between? I consider it a bit of an in-between land where you rest.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we've always taken the same approach that we definitely are an advisory to government on issues that are of concern to women in this province. We are that bridge to government.

MS. WHALEN: You know the questions that were asked earlier by the member for Dartmouth South - I should have written it down the first time - those issues, what she's expressing are common concerns for other members of the Legislature. I heard you repeat again and again in your answers - well we have statistical information, we'll make statistical information available to other departments and we'll keep them apprised of all the stats and where we're at. Maybe you're benchmarking and maybe you're counting and you're looking for advances and this sort of thing, but we want to see where you really advocate - that's what I want to see. I'd like to see the advisory council advise you as the minister to please do such and such, please advance a strategy, please introduce a bill, please tell your members to do something, you know, please introduce a debate in the Legislature so that we can talk about it publicly - things like that.

There are things that you can do in the Legislature or at the Cabinet Table but more publicly in the Legislature that would really start to advance a lot of the things, that we are very clear on the problems and we're very clear on the slow progress.

[Page 455]

I would point to domestic violence as one of the areas where Nova Scotia has a poor record. We talked in your opening speech, I think, about the low rate of reporting of domestic violence. We know that many women experience it, but don't report it. That came out in a recent study that was done, and we also know that there's a high incidence. You know the Silent Witness Program - I know you've been a partner in that, and I think it's a really important project. They're trying to raise awareness, trying to put it on the public agenda that we can't just continue to go along and every few months read an article about another woman who has been murdered or, you know, another horrific assault because that's routine. I hate to say that but it happens frequently.

All of us read it and think that's terrible, but that's happening right here in our communities. We've talked about it being in every community, at every socio-economic level. It's not just women in poverty - it's all, although some women are at greater risk. I would like to see something more concrete again coming out, not to criticize the fact that someone has to count and somebody has to know, you know, what the real situation is. So that's important but to go a step further, I almost think that the board and the way that the advisory council is structured has taken away their teeth essentially. It has become more academic and less directly involved in the emotional side of some of these issues. Now, if I'm completely wrong, then please do correct me.

[8:00 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would like to say that the Advisory Council on the Status of Women is doing very good work and they do keep me apprised on what is going on throughout this province with different issues. When we look at violence against women, we directly have put dollars towards Avalon Sexual Assault to fund programs there. We have worked within the community. We meet on a regular basis with Women's Centres CONNECT. We've met with those individuals and we have been able to bring things back to the decision-making table that have made a difference for women in this province.

When I look at our campaign school for women that was held for two years in a row in partnership with Mount Saint Vincent University, and with Women Unlimited that I had mentioned earlier which is a very positive program that is just getting off the ground in Bridgewater, where 17 women are entering trades at the community college and they will be guaranteed employment when they come out of this program - these are good initiatives and this initiative will be also off the ground here this Fall in Halifax at the community college. So these are good things that are happening with the help and with the advice coming back to me from the advisory council.

MS. WHALEN: On this Women Unlimited, let's just look at that briefly, is that something that - you know, you said earlier you don't fund programs like this. So what would the role be of the advisory council on Women Unlimited?

[Page 456]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We have funded gender curriculum for this program and we have been a part of the program from its initial stages and make sure that it is successful in this province and, again, another program that we partnership in is Techsploration.

MS. WHALEN: I'm aware of Techsploration as well. In fact, they're entering one of the schools in my riding.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, I hope you do have the opportunity to visit those students before and after they go through the program because it definitely is an eye-opener, and these students are well apprised of what their options are when they do leave their high school years.

MS. WHALEN: My question on both of those programs is, would they exist even if there was no Advisory Council on the Status of Women? Who initiated those programs? Are they federally funded? Did the idea come from the community college? Does it come from a federal women and skills trades program? Are they federal across the country?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They are definitely partnerships that do happen. The Hypatia Group was one of the organizations that was involved as well as other organizations throughout Nova Scotia that are involved, but they are partnership programs that are going on.

MS. WHALEN: Let me put it this way - did Techsploration exist and come to the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women and ask for some assistance and some endorsement or did the advisory council find out about this program and bring it to Nova Scotia? Where's the leadership in this program?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We definitely were involved right from the very start. I'm not sure (Interruption) It was a collaboration of all the organizations getting together to see to it that this program got off the ground, but we were involved right from the very start with Techsploration, and we'll continue to be involved.

MS. WHALEN: Does it exist in any other provinces in Canada?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I believe they do have it in one other territory, the Northwest Territories. Newfoundland and Labrador was definitely looking to set up such a program, based on the success that we have had here in Nova Scotia. We are not a funding body, we are an advisory group.

MS. WHALEN: Well, that's right. That's why I wouldn't expect you to be providing the funds, and I felt that the federal government is apt to be the major funder. Am I not right?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.

[Page 457]

MS. WHALEN: So who hires the staff . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In Women's Unlimited, the federal government is the partner there, the funding partner.

MS. WHALEN: But not in Techsploration?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, in Techsploration, it's sponsored more by the industry itself for the actual funding, and the Women Unlimited.

MS. WHALEN: I think it's fine for the advisory council to take credit for a lot of the work that goes on. I'm sure you advise them on aspects and elements and, again, labour market statistics and that sort of thing that's so necessary, but I just think there's work that you could be spearheading, is what I'm saying. I'm not sure that these two projects that you're referring to today are ones that you spearheaded yourselves.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those are all things that we will take under advisement and definitely consider.

MS. WHALEN: In the May session of the Legislature, I introduced bill called the Domestic Violence Elimination bill. I wonder if the advisory council was aware that that had gone in under the legislative agenda.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we were aware that it was introduced.

MS. WHALEN: Can I ask, was it analyzed or was there any work done on it? Was there any suggestion made to the minister that that should be pursued?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It was discussed at the staff level.

MS. WHALEN: Just for the benefit of the minister, it doesn't have any cost implications. It suggests setting up a committee that would gather information which the advisory council is doing a lot of anyway, that would then set targets and would examine benchmarks and programs in other places that we could start to introduce here. It could be the basis for a strategy that the member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley referred to. I think it's important, those sorts of things, even if they came from the minister they would be important. It's there, it could be reintroduced.

I think the important thing is that, as members of the Legislature, we take the opportunity that's presented to advance certain initiatives. These are important.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member's time has elapsed.

[Page 458]

I would ask the minister if she has any closing comments that she would like to make.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would just like to thank the members for their questions over the last four hours. We definitely had a lot of very good questions. When we look back, they're very busy departments and organizations. When you look at the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, the Senior Citizens' Secretariat and the Office of Immigration, we're going to be moving forward in a very progressive way. I'm looking very forward to that.

Resolution E20 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $868,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, pursuant to the Estimate.

Resolution E30 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,119,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Senior Citizens' Secretariat, pursuant to the Estimate.

Resolution E42 - Resolved that the business plan of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation be approved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E15 stand?

Resolution E15 stands.

Shall Resolutions E20, E30 and E42 carry?

The resolutions are carried.

We will call the Estimates of the Department of Health Promotion and Protection.

Resolution E12 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $36,299,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Health Promotion and Protection, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Health Promotion and Protection.

HON. BARRY BARNET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm the minister for a number of different portfolios - the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, Communications Nova Scotia, Health Promotion and Protection, and I'm not sure what the process is. We can either do one department or keep everyone here and work our way through. What have you done in the past I guess is what I'm asking?

[Page 459]

MR. CHAIRMAN: In the past, the members have been able to ask whatever questions come to mind and I think that's probably where we want to stay.

MR. BARNET: Okay, it just may mean that we'll have to switch some staff for advice throughout the process.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Is that okay with you?

MR. PERCY PARIS: Well, if this will help the Chair, I'll be starting off with the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs - if that's of any help.

MR. BARNET: Well, we'll make a little change right away then. (Laughter) I'll start with my opening remarks while our staff are getting situated, Mr. Chairman.

It's a privilege to appear before you today to discuss the work underway at the Department of Health Promotion and Protection, as well as the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, and as well Communications Nova Scotia. Let me first introduce the staff who are joining me here today. We have the Acting Deputy Minister, Bob Fowler. We have the Assistant Deputy Minister, Duff Montgomerie; our Budget Manager, Tanga Roche; Director of Policy, Rick Manuel. We also have the Chief Executive Officer of African Nova Scotian Affairs, Wayn Hamilton. We have our financial officer, Marianne Hakkert-Lebel; and Natasha Jackson with the Office of Nova Scotian Affairs. Angela Johnson will be joining us later, with African Nova Scotian Affairs, and we have Rick Alexander, here with Communications Nova Scotia and we may be joined a little later with other staff as well, I understand. Okay, the introductions are out of the way.

Mr. Chairman, as you are well aware, the Department of Health Promotion and Protection was created approximately six months ago by the Premier, based on recommendations made in the Public Health review. This was an important decision and one which reaffirmed the Premier's commitment to renewing the public health system, as well as making Nova Scotia healthier and safer.

Nova Scotia was the first province to commission an external review of the strengths and the limitations of the public health system, post SARS. This report demonstrates our leadership and commitment to improving the health and safety of Nova Scotians. The Department of Health Promotion and Protection brings together the former Office of Health Promotion, the Department of Health's Public Health Branch, and the Office of the Chief Medical Officer of Health. We are responsible for responding to emerging public health threats, preventing chronic disease and injury and promoting healthy choices to Nova Scotians.

Mr. Chairman, these are exciting times. Never before in the history of our province has such a focus been given to the promotion and the protection of health. It's my goal, as

[Page 460]

minister, to make Nova Scotia the healthiest province in our country. This is not going to be an easy task and it is not one that our department can do alone. We must support and help create a shift in our culture, away from unhealthy habits, to one that supports and helps make healthy choices easy and accessible, for all Nova Scotians.

[8:15 p.m.]

In my short time as minister, I have been impressed with the strong working relationship between our staff and our many stakeholders. A cultural shift will only take place when we can generate movement at the community level. Only through the work of community groups, district health authorities, community health boards, and non-for-profit organizations can we really effect serious change. We are committed to continuing our strong relationship with stakeholders and we will work to generate and build new relationships as we grow into this new department.

As you are aware, Mr. Chairman, this budget provides our department with a budget increase for this fiscal year. With an increased budget, comes increased expectations to provide results for the people of Nova Scotia. We take this responsibility seriously and are committed to working with the experts to ensure that our work is evidence-based and results- driven towards making Nova Scotia the healthiest province in the country.

Next year, we will know the results of Canada's bid to host the 2014 Commonwealth Games. In addition, Nova Scotia will find out which community will host the 2011 Canada Winter Games. Both events will have positive economic impact on our province.

Mr. Chairman, I'd now like to speak to you about another one of my responsibilities, the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs. The office was formed in 2003, and it was a historical and progressive step for this government to undertake. In 2004, during the Fall sitting of the House, legislation was passed to officially establish the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs. The past year has been an exciting one for us. We successfully established a Halifax office and put in place a team of qualified staff, to undertake the work necessary to build a solid foundation for the future of the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs.

There has been a wide range of activities undertaken since the office became operational. It has included several community information sessions held across the province to inform the community about the status of the office, its role and its future plans, presentations to various government departments and agencies, and consultation and collaboration with Voluntary Planning's Heritage Task Force.

In this last initiative, it was an opportunity for African Nova Scotians to be involved in the early stages of a strategy that will shape the future heritage programming in the province. Keeping the office in the forefront of African Nova Scotian communities and within government has been one of our key priorities during this initial start-up phase. To

[Page 461]

that end, we have produced a brochure and information booklet on the office, its background and its potential initiatives, generated two newsletters, held an open house and launched our Web site.

In the year ahead, ANSA will continue to pursue partnerships with the departments and agencies that assist African Nova Scotian community groups and develop strategies, activities, and programs to expand and enhance the communities' social, cultural and economic strengths. In particular, we look forward to opening our first satellite office in Cape Breton. A need for regional offices has been identified, as a large segment of African Nova Scotians live outside the metro Halifax area. Our goal is to have this regional office operational by the Winter 2006. The office will also continue to strengthen government's understanding of local concerns through the development of primary reference groups - PRGs - to draw upon the skills and the experience of community leaders throughout the province. I believe I speak for the current staff when I say we look forward to the rewarding work ahead, and that is addressing the needs of developing programs for the African Nova Scotia community.

I've also recently been given a new portfolio, Minister of Volunteerism, and I am pleased and welcome the opportunity to work with Nova Scotians on developing this important initiative. Without a solid base of active and dedicated volunteers, many of the great things that happen in our province would not take place. I look forward to the work ahead. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity to appear here this evening and I look forward to addressing any questions regarding my responsibilities over the next four hours.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Just to make things easier, if you're going to change the area of responsibility, maybe you could tell the minister that so if the staff has to change it will flow a little easier.

The honourable member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank.

MR. PERCY PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I'll start off this evening, with all due respect it's my understanding that it's quite an informal meeting, so my questions will go directly to the minister responsible. I think under the circumstances I just want to give the minister, in particular, a little bit of background into who I am and why I sit here - I sit here not qualified on the pigmentation of my skin. The minister alluded to, in his opening remarks that these were excited times, and I would probably say that for me, as a person of African descent, these are challenging times and have been challenging times since I've been in the Province of Nova Scotia. I think on that note I will say that I'm a sixth generation Nova Scotian, born and raised in Nova Scotia. I've been active in all communities whether they be the African Nova Scotia community or whether they be in the white community.

[Page 462]

I certainly will give, probably for the minister's benefit, a little background into Percy Paris himself. In my tenure at Dalhousie University, I directed a number of initiatives that were targeted for African Nova Scotians with particular reference to the transitional year program - I taught there for a number of years before at Dalhousie University moving on to direct the supervisory career path program for African Nova Scotians. While at Dalhousie, I also directed the entrepreneurial initiative for black youth, was a former board member of the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children, original board member with the Black Business Initiative and I could sit here - I don't want to spend all of my time telling you too much about me, but I just want to give a little bit of background for the minister's benefit because he might not know me that well. I think my activity in the community was accumulated last year as the recipient of the Nova Scotia Human Rights Award. With that, I'll get into the nuts and bolts as to why we're here.

I said in my opening remarks that these are challenging times, and I truly believe that. Since I can remember as a youth when I was in elementary school, challenging times when going to a public school in Nova Scotia. I would have to fight my way to school and then afterwards having to fight my way back home, living in an all white community and the trials and tribulations that go with that. Also, coming from parentage that had certainly wealth in other areas, but their wealth wasn't measured financially.

Probably my saving grace - I think this could be for many persons of African descent that live in the Province of Nova Scotia - was being a good athlete. It allowed me to further my education; it allowed me entry into a prep school because as I was going through the public school system in Nova Scotia, the prospects of university never crossed my table. By that, I simply mean that the educators never discussed university with me while with my white peers, university for them was an ongoing discussion.

It wasn't until I was fortunate enough, on an athletic scholarship, to go to a private school, a private boys school, that I began to start thinking about university. Again, the university door was more open for me based on my athletic ability.

Long before I was born, certainly even before my father's time, in the Province of Nova Scotia, there's been, traditionally speaking, some wrongs that have happened here in this province with respect to Nova Scotia. With all due respect to the portfolio, Mr. Minister, that you have in front of you with African Nova Scotian Affairs, my first question would be, has there ever been any consideration given at the provincial level with respect to an apology to individuals of African descent?

Giving an apology to persons of African descent is not something foreign. There are other individuals in Canada that have received apologies from governments. When I think about the - I don't have to go back to the slave trade. I can go back to the 1960s, the 1950s, certainly when I was alive and well and even before that, I think the injustices and the

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inequalities that have existed and to some degree exist today, if they didn't exist to some degree, we'd have no need for an African Nova Scotian Affairs department.

So, again, I reiterate my first question is around one of an apology. Has it ever been discussed at your table and if it has been, could you please inform us as to what the status is?

MR. BARNET: First of all, let me just comment on some of your opening remarks. We share a lot in common. I, too, am a sixth or seventh generation Nova Scotian and I too sit in this position not qualified by the pigment of my skin, but by the same process that you went through, seeking election to public office and then subsequently being sworn in as Minister of African Nova Scotian Affairs.

But, with respect to an apology - since I've been minister, I'm unaware of any request that's come to our table, seeking an apology, directly to the Province of Nova Scotia. I do know there were discussions specifically held between the Africville Genealogy Society, Halifax Regional Municipality, ourselves, and the federal government around the issue of the relocation of the community of Africville. Those discussions are still ongoing. We've made great progress and as I understand it, there is a component of which that was to seek an apology. I'm not certain which level of government was being asked to apologize, but that was an issue around all three levels of government - the federal government, municipal government and the provincial government - trying to come up with a solution.

Specifically to the Africville issue and the Africville Genealogy Society's request to resolve some outstanding issues around the community there, including the construction of the Seaview United Baptist Church and cultural centre.

One more thing, we were also asked to respond to a letter from a black organization in Quebec, called Quebec Coalition, and it's for an across-Canada initiative to recognize a day of remembrance for the enslavement period. I believe we've sent correspondence back supporting that August 12^th, being identified as that day. I understand we may be the first province or the second province that has agreed to support that initiative. To that extent, that's where we've been since we've been in the office.

MR. PARIS: I guess, Mr. Minister, again with all due respect, I say we may have some things in common but one thing we will never ever share, that I will never be a part of and that's called white privilege - you have ownership of that and that's something that I will never ever be a part of no matter what. The other thing I want to comment on is that you say that there's never been a request for an apology and I hoped that the answer that I received would have been somewhat different. I hoped that maybe that's something that you can champion instead of waiting for someone to call you and make the request. Maybe you can be more proactive and lead the charge on that.

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[8:30 p.m.]

MR. BARNET: Well, at the end of the day we do have a number of initiatives that, as an office we've embarked on - things I believe are proactive in resolving outstanding issues that are on the table here today. I'm very proud of the work that we've done, I think that we've got a great deal of work to do. By the establishment of the office and developing our mandate through that we have acknowledged that wrongs have occurred and that there is work to be done. I think that speaks very loudly, I take very seriously the work that we do in the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, so do all of our staff. We're very proud of the fact that we've developed this office with a wide range of consultation with Nova Scotians.

I can tell you that myself and my executive assistant, Arien Gough, travelled extensively around this province. We've visited every single historical African Nova Scotian community. We've met with people in their basements, in their rec rooms, in their church halls. We've met with them at their fire halls. We've met with them in schools. We've talked about a wide variety, a cadre of issues - things like economic development, education, health care, social services and infrastructure. We brought that back and began the foundation that has established this office and from that point, we went and hired a chief executive officer. We moved forward specifically to do that work again and to reinsure that, from our point of view, we understood exactly and clearly what the community was looking for out of this office.

I think simply the establishment of the portfolio, the fact that we recognize that there is work to do. We've identified a work plan and we moved forward with that. It speaks highly to this government's concern about the past and our genuine intent to find solutions so we can correct areas where there have been wrongs and move forward.

MR. PARIS: Mr. Minister, let's be clear on one thing, that at no time have I mentioned staff, at no time did I make comment about the work that they do or that they don't do - I want to be clear about that. You mentioned that there had been many wrongs that have existed in the past. Again, I reiterate the question - if you truly believe that there have been many wrongs that existed and there had been some injustices, will you move and issue an apology to African Nova Scotians of this province?

MR. BARNET: Well, what I'll say is that I believe simply the establishment of this office speaks to, you know, the need for us to address concerns in the communities and I think that one of the biggest wrongs that I believe exists is that there were reports done with recommendations that had never been fulfilled or prioritized.

Our office has taken steps to prioritize those recommendations. We've lobbied other departments of government to ensure that funding was in place to implement those particular recommendations. With respect to an overall blanket, you know, pan-government apology, it's something that I would have to get a better understanding of exactly what it is we're

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being asked to apologize for and what the legal ramifications are. Frankly, if there are things that we've done wrong, I don't believe it's irresponsible to apologize. If there are ways we can correct them, I think that's the most important thing - that we look to the future. That we find ways to correct those mistakes.

I think the establishment of this office in and of itself is one of those ways that we've identified how we can look to the future, to move this province forward, to prioritize those recommendations that have been established for government in a variety of government documents that were commissioned for government. That in and of itself I think is probably some of the best work that we will do in the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs in addition to the community help and support that we give to groups and organizations like the Black Loyalist Heritage Society; the Black Cultural Centre; UNIA Hall in Glace Bay; Africville Genealogy Society; and the many, many groups and organizations and individuals that we've been able to reach out to, partner with, and provide them advice and direct access to government and a voice at the Cabinet Table inside government. I think that in and of itself has proven to be beneficial and has shown that this office is a worthwhile initiative. It's also important to point out that it's the only office of its kind in this country and I think that as well speaks highly of our commitment to making sure that some of these longstanding issues get reasonable resolutions. Thank you for your question.

MR. PARIS: Mr. Minister, you have to understand that as an African Nova Scotian, and I mentioned this in the House of Assembly the other day, is that sometimes people often misinterpret when African Nova Scotians are asking the questions because it's a very emotional moment and a very emotional time. I had mentioned the other day in the House when I was talking to the Minister of Education, I talked about 500 years ago education was denied - 500 years later, education is still being denied.

Mr. Minister, you responded to the question. I'm not quite sure if you answered it and, you know, I don't want to push it too far because I don't think I'm going to get an answer. So I want to move on to something else that's very troublesome to me and I think it might be also somewhat troublesome in the community itself and I already mentioned it. I mentioned education - education denied. There have been reports and there have been studies and we only know that in the African Nova Scotia community, it seems like any time that something goes wrong or there's an issue or something, we either want to do a study on it, we want to get together a task force, or we have to study the study of the study, and too many studies. As much as I hate to admit it, I was involved in a task force back in the mid-1990s commissioned by a previous government that we went around the province and did community and individual consultation. It took years, 2003, several years later before government decided, well, maybe we will implement some of the recommendations from that task force. It took several years.

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My next question would be, does your department have a business plan to address some of the inequities and the injustice that exists in the Province of Nova Scotia when it comes to African Nova Scotians.

MR. BARNET: First of all, with respect to the studies, I agree with you. I think that there is a time when government or any entity gathers enough information. It concerns me when we spend a great deal of time and effort analyzing - I heard someone describe it one time as paralysis by analysis. One of the things we've heard over and over again in the community is that they didn't want this office to be established to simply set up another series of studies - that what we would do is come out and just continually consult, consult and consult. Enough studies have been done, people told us, it's time to get the work done.

To answer your question, yes we have developed a business plan and it's available, we can provide you with a copy of that and it's on-line. That business plan is what guides us and what has helped us over the past year. Obviously like any business plan, we will have to adjust it as we meet some of our objectives in our business plan and develop new ones. That is exactly how we've established our work pattern since the inception of our office.

MR. PARIS: That business plan, and I don't want to assume anything, but I would trust that there's a component of that business plan that's going to deal with education - some of those things that we talked about in the House of Assembly just this week.

MR. BARNET: Sorry, I was listening to two people at the same time, will you say that again? I apologize.

MR. PARIS: The business plan that we speak about, does it include something that will address working partnership with the Department of Education pertaining to some of those things that were discussed at the House of Assembly the other day?

MR. BARNET: I don't know what was discussed the other day but, yes, in fact it does anticipate working in partnership. One thing that we know we can't do is become another Department of Education or another department of any other department. Our role is to work with the communities and the departments to provide that link often between community and government. Our business plan lists our core business areas, strategicals, how we intend to do community outreach, our communication and public education, and awareness planning.

We do have a number of initiatives that we've identified, things like positive parenting, math and science initiatives, this is through Education. It's available on-line or we can give you a copy of it and it actually is a fairly detailed business plan, we took the time to get it right. As I said in my opening comments, that is one of the things I believe that was absolutely necessary when this office was developed, including its mandate and its business plan. The community could then look out and see our business plan, see what we're doing

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and say, this is what I told the minister, this is what I told Mr. Hamilton. So it reflects what we heard as we went around this province, we actually had two series of what I call the provincial tour, one at a staff level and one at a political level and then subsequent to that we've also embarked on other consultations but, the short answer is yes.

MR. PARIS: We're having some time issues here. How much time do I have left Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: You can go until 9:20 p.m.

MR. PARIS: You had mentioned that the business plan is fully comprehensible and it's complete. We touched on education, there's some other issues, we've got youth issues in community, not that other people don't have youth issues but we certainly have a youth problem in the African Nova Scotian community.

We have issues with the justice system. There's a disproportionate number of African Nova Scotians that are incarcerated. We have the issue around the inequities that do exist. So again I'll ask the question, are they included as part of the business plan as well to address and work with other agencies and organizations to address these imbalances?

MR. BARNET: Absolutely. I'm referring to our business plan, I'll work my way backwards. Page 14, in our business plan, in our core business area section of it, we spell out objectives, indicators of our goal achievements and our targets. One of our objectives on Page 14 is to develop a provincial African Nova Scotian youth leadership initiative in the area you spoke about.

We also have an objective to improve government policy for health and health services delivery for the African Nova Scotian population, and increased community awareness of government services. We have an objective to improve the capacity for policy development for services for African Nova Scotians. We have an objective to increase youth, family and community involvement in the education process. With each of these objectives, as I said earlier, we have developed indicators of our goal achievements and targets and how we can do this. This is part of our 2006-07 strategic plan matrix.

[8:45 p.m.]

We've developed and worked with community partners along the way to help us develop these objectives. We have a list of those partners that we've worked with - they include Education Transition Year Program; the Black Student Advisory Centre; the Black Educators' Association; the Black school board representatives; the Council on African Canadian Education - very important; the James R. Johnson Chair; the Community Education Committees; the Indigenous Black-Mi'kmaq Law Program; and the Nova Scotia Community College.

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In the justice area, we've reached out to Dal Legal Aid, the Legal Education Society, and the Indigenous Black-Mi'kmaq Law Program. For social services, we've worked with the Association of Black Social Workers and the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children. In community development, it's the Black Employment Partnership Committees, various ratepayers' associations, and community development organizations. In health, we've worked with and spoke to and utilized the services of people in groups like Restorative Justice, Dalhousie School of Nursing, Maritime Centre for Excellence in Women's Health, and the Health Association of African Canadians.

In youth, we've reached out to the Baptist Youth Fellowship, the Black Business Initiative, the North Branch Library Youth Program, the George Dixon Centre, North Preston Recreation Centre, and the East Preston Recreation Centre.

We've