[Page 67]
HALIFAX, FRIDAY, JULY 7, 2006
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
9:27 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Alfred MacLeod
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call this meeting to order. The time is now 9:28 a.m. and there are two hours and seven minutes remaining.
The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To start off the first round, I'm joined by a few of my colleagues who wish to ask some questions. The honourable member for Shelburne, the member for Halifax Atlantic, and the member for Queens would all like to ask some questions of the minister, so we'll start with the member for Shelburne.
The honourable member for Shelburne.
MR. STERLING BELLIVEAU: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As you are well aware, Shelburne County is very interested in economic development. First of all, I just want to point out that during the last election this government announced, days before the election was called, $65 million for Stora pulp mill, $20 million for the Mersey pulp mill in Liverpool to reduce the economic costs or help in energy bills, and overall to keep the economic well-being of those communities.
[Page 68]
In Shelburne County, over the past 20 years, we have seen losses such as the Shelburne military base in Sandy Point, we have seen the closure of the CF Barrington Base in Baccaro, we have also endured the downturn in the groundfishery, particularly fin fishery, and also in the last few years we have seen the closure of the boys school in Shelburne.
After this particular facility closed, the boys school in Shelburne, the five mayors and wardens of Shelburne County requested a $6 million economic development package from this previous government - or this government - and was turned down. I guess my question is, why was this turned down when we so desperately need economic growth and seed money to create some new jobs in our community? That's my first question, Mr. Chairman, why are we not eligible for some of this economic growth in our community?
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Economic Development.
HON. RICHARD HURLBURT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Through you to the honourable member for Shelburne, I can assure the member for Shelburne that the Office of Economic Development and Nova Scotia Business Inc. will be there, and are there, for any business plan that comes forth from Shelburne, the same as any other community in the province. This government has made commitments to the community of Shelburne, and we have lived up to those commitments in the past, and we will live up to the commitments in the future.
There was a request for a sum of money, I'm aware of that. What the government has said, you come forth with a business case and the government will deal with it case by case.
MR. BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, I just want to emphasize again, I believe the five mayors and wardens did present a business proposal with the closure of the boys school and they requested a $6 million economic development package. My question is more directed toward this particular new budget, and it talks about a rural economic strategy or funding that is designated specifically for rural communities across Nova Scotia.
Again, I would ask the minister, what will Shelburne County be expecting, and how will this funding be directed toward much-needed areas like Shelburne County?
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can assure the member and all members that the Office of Economic Development and Nova Scotia Business Inc., when there is a case brought forth, will do our due diligence and do our analysis on the file and we will be there to support communities all across this province. If there's a business case that comes forth from Shelburne, I can assure the member - that's next to my home riding, and I will make sure that gets due diligence from my staff. My staff are very well aware of it. I spoke to members from Nova Scotia Business Inc., I think it was on Tuesday evening, and I
[Page 69]
discussed the community of Shelburne and area. They are looking now for maybe a potential client for that area for a business - I can't disclose any more, but they are working on clients right now for that area.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I have only a very few questions to ask on Economic Development and, like many of my colleagues, they're quite specifically focused on the area which I represent.
As probably everybody has heard me say, the communities of Spryfield, Herring Cove, Sambro and so on, live very much in what I call the urban shadow. They're part of the large, amalgamated regional municipality - well, with the exception of Spryfield. By anyone else's definition I think they would constitute rural communities, but at the same time they're suffering some of the difficulties that do come with being very close to a city. What I'm wondering is, in a very general way, what is the department looking at in terms of infrastructure and requirements for infrastructure for rural areas which find themselves inside amalgamated municipalities? The same is true, I think, of large parts of the Cape Breton Regional Municipality.
As an example, I would indicate that there is, for instance, one road in and out of Sambro, but there is no public transit. That is, of course, a municipal responsibility, yet it is some 30 kilometres, I believe, to the nearest bank, grocery store, doctor, for the people living in Sambro. What kind of provisions and stipulations does the Economic Development Department have for community planning inside the rural areas of amalgamated municipalities?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member. I can assure the honourable member I made a commitment to this committee yesterday, and I do not make commitments and not live up to them. I made a commitment that when the House rises, I'm going to start my tour around the province and I'm going to be reaching out to boards of trade, chambers of commerce, RDAs, communities, and I'm asking the MLAs and elected officials in communities to work with me and my department to see what benefits we can expand on in the communities. I think that's what we have to do, we have to work with community leaders. We will be there to offer the advice and we'll do whatever we possibly can as a department and as a government, but we're asking communities to work with us. That's where I'm focused and I can assure the member when I tour through her community, I will definitely let her know.
MS. RAYMOND: Tremendous, I would certainly welcome that and invite you to visit these areas because, as I say, they are very much in shadow.
[Page 70]
One of the other questions that I do have actually - and I guess it's a suggestion that I would make as well as anything - the community of Spryfield particularly, which is in the area, it's interesting because there's always a lot of talk about economic development in the area and there are certainly significant efforts being made at the local level, but one of the difficulties though, which goes partly with lack of transit and so on, is that there's absolutely no licensed child care, which means that there are a large number of people who, if they want to work in their own area, would in fact have to migrate into town to find care for their children and then come back out - does the Office of Economic Development look in any way at the availability of child care in a community?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member. I can assure the member that's a very important question and a concern. A concern that I had in my home community is I had an individual, an entrepreneur from China who wanted to open up - and that was one of the key elements, having the workforce but having the child care system for, i.e., single parents. So it is an issue and I can assure the member that my department works very closely with Community Services on this issue and we will continue to work on that to see any way that we can expand on the programs.
I can assure the member also that I know of a company that's looking to expand in the rural part of Nova Scotia right now and they are going to have a segment for child care within the new company that's being formed. I think that's a key. I think that is a key to getting good, qualified employees, and maintaining those employees. So you are on the right track. It is an issue, and we are dealing with it, and we will work in conjunction with Community Services.
MS. RAYMOND: That's really good to hear, because I would suggest that it is certainly a part of the infrastructure that any community needs to have, and not just single parents, but there are lots of two-income families, as well. Thank you very much, I look forward to seeing you in the area.
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Queens.
MS. VICKI CONRAD: Mr. Chairman, first, I want to thank the minister for the ongoing work with Lightbridge. It's very important to our community of Queens, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the progress on that. I have every confidence that between the municipality and your department and Nova Scotia Business Inc., a partner will be found for that space.
That being said, the riding of Queens, we have a lot of serious concerns, and certainly with long-term sustainable economic development. We have an aging population in Queens. We have a serious out-migration of our youth, because we have nothing to keep our youth at home. When they graduate either from high school or go on to post-secondary, there is
[Page 71]
nothing to bring them back to their hometown because we don't have the economic development in place for them to do that.
We also have Bowater Mersey, one of our largest employers in Queens. I think over the next couple of years that we really have to start seriously addressing the concerns that may come out of that pulp and paper industry. Things are changing rapidly in the forestry industry, and as we can see with Stora Enso and the energy crisis and the labour disruption there, we will be facing similar concerns with Bowater. Certainly they are feeling the energy management pinch they are facing.
The workers at Bowater are looking at another contract in 2009, and I think that's going to be a difficult time for both Bowater and the employees. I also think that Bowater will be experiencing supply management issues. I think I noted the other day in Question Period that any one of us who have been behind any of those logging trucks and you see what size the supply is coming into the mills, I think that will be a serious issue in years to come.
So we do need to look to the future in Queens in terms of long-term sustainable economic development and, unfortunately, the reality is, call centres do not make those strong anchors of economic development in Queens.
We have a vibrant small-business community in Queens, but unfortunately the small- business climate doesn't make it really attractive for people to take that risk to get into small business. There are not a lot of incentives for small-business owners. There happens to be a lot of red tape that small-business owners get frustrated with. Sometimes - when I've heard from small-business owners - along with the red tape, there are regulations that seem to just not make sense to them. So I really think it's important that the Department of Economic Development and all of the partners around the table look at ways to really strengthen the small-business community and bring them to the table as a viable partner. I think that does happen, but I do think we need to look at strengthening those communities.
I certainly recognize there is lots of expertise around the table, our municipal economic and tourism director in our riding, there are a lot of good incentives happening, there are a lot of good businesses that are being looked at and proposals being made, and that's a good thing. Of course, we have South Shore Opportunities Inc. that offer expertise to people looking to get into business or to offer avenues of training, and, of course, the RDAs, Nova Scotia Business Inc. and ACOA. All of those systems are in place, but there still seems to be a lack of real long-term sustainable economic development.
I just want to add that I think there is tremendous potential in rural Nova Scotia, the Queens riding in particular. If we were able to tap into those opportunities and explore all of the options available to us for long-term economic development solutions, and I see light manufacturing, renewable energy and perhaps working together with other departments to look at renewable energy and perhaps working together with other departments to look at renewable energy as kind of the economic development of the future, and there are different
[Page 72]
things that I think departments can work kind of together with and explore manufacturing opportunities in that particular sector. Rural Nova Scotia, having the geographical area that we do have, it allows for that type of development.
My specific question for the minister is, what specific long-term plans does the Department of Economic Development have for rural Nova Scotia, particularly the riding of Queens, for long-term sustainable economic development in the future, given the comments I just laid out in terms of our riding?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I can assure the member that not only Queens, but all parts of this province, I am very in tune with all the communities. I live in a rural part of our province and I'm very proud of that. But I can assure the member that my department is very, very supportive of the local RDAs and I can tell you that I was a warden for the county when RDAs first came in and I was very - I reserve my thoughts for RDAs. I think RDAs are a great tool for all communities around our province and they have proven that. Their track record has proven that, but we have to expand on that.
I believe, as I mentioned earlier, working with Community Services for child care, working with the Department of Education and our community colleges are great tools for us to work with. Working with our credit unions, with the small business loans - those are tools that we have that we can work with small businesses and make sure they can sustain the jobs we have and expand jobs and find new companies that want to locate anywhere in the province, especially in rural Nova Scotia.
I made a commitment to the member that I will be in Queens whenever time will allow for both of us to go there and I will be talking to the employees of Lightbridge and community leaders. I intend to come through your community and talk to your local RDA and your mayor and the board of trade - whatever is in your community.
[9:45 a.m.]
The tools that we have to work with, I really, really believe in my heart that we have the tools in our communities, but we have to work together to find that maybe there's something in that community that we've overlooked, and let's explore every avenue to see ways that we can expand existing businesses and attract new businesses to communities in our province.
We have the workforce and that is one thing that we are blessed with in this province - a very, very dedicated workforce. There are testimonials all across the province, from one end to the other, of companies that have located in this province and the workforce is what attracts new companies from other countries here to work and open up business in this province - it is because of the dedicated workforce.
[Page 73]
To be specific, working with communities - and Mr. Conrad, our rural development officer, he works very closely with the RDAs in the communities. I intend to be doing my tour around the communities in the province as soon as possible and that's my message to councils, chambers, boards, and RDAs - let's turn over every stone to see what opportunity is in a community. I believe that's the responsibility of not just me as minister, but of all members and all community leaders - to see what opportunities exist in that community.
MS. CONRAD: I thank you and I agree that we do have a strong workforce and we do have a number of opportunities before us, and it is about exploring those opportunities and working with the partners around the table.
I guess specifically I'm asking, what plans, what long-term future plans, does the Department of Economic Development have to ensure long-term sustainable economic development? What type of businesses do we want to attract to rural Nova Scotia to make that happen? And again I'll refer back to Bowater, perhaps in the next couple of years looking at the struggles that will happen within that industry, and also the forestry industry as a whole, which will have a tremendous impact across the riding and also across the province.
So I think I'm feeling that it's a sense of urgency to really look long term at our rural communities, and in particular Queens, to ensure that we do have - and I know that we have all of the partners at the table working collectively to move those thoughts forward and to move expertise and to provide opportunity for people to come into our communities and set up business. But again, I think we certainly need to see that leadership coming loud, strong and clear from the Department of Economic Development that we are going to aggressively move forward with long-term sustainable economic development plans and whether that be through the partners that currently exist around the table, to strengthen their roles in order to see those things happen.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, as I know my honourable colleague is a new member to the Legislature, I would welcome her to have a copy of our Opportunities for Sustainable Prosperity 2006. I don't know if she or any of her caucus colleagues have that document, but that document is an excellent document and it's the direction in which we want to take this province. We're working today in global markets and every community is trying to seize the opportunity and every province is trying to seize the same opportunity. We have to be more aggressive, and with Nova Scotia Business Inc. we are very, very aggressive. They are out all of the time exploring new opportunities for Nova Scotians and that's a great tool that we have at our disposal. With the Office of Economic Development, I can assure that member that we are looking to the future and we are looking for sustainable jobs for this province.
MS. CONRAD: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
[Page 74]
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, to the minister, I should remind him that at least I have the Opportunities for Sustainable Prosperity 2006, I quoted from it yesterday. However, the minister does make a very good suggestion, which is probably all new members of the Legislature would be interested in seeing a copy - it would probably be a very good idea if all new members of all Parties got a copy of that. That, I think, would be very useful, it's the latest document . . .
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, all three caucuses have copies of the document.
MR. EPSTEIN: Very good idea. I wonder if we could do a couple of things - first, Mr. Minister, I wonder, can we go back and just continue a little bit of our discussion from yesterday about the investments the government has made both through NSBI and the Office of Economic Development in either job retention or job creation in Nova Scotia? You will recall that I gave you a document yesterday that set out, in tabular form, the companies that had been successful in attracting some financial support from the government over the last few years, and I'm wondering, can you tell us to what extent your department tracks the performance of the companies? I'm wondering if you can tell us anything about a comparison between the number of additional jobs that were promised or projected at the time the grants or subsidies or payroll rebates were announced, and the number of jobs that survive today - is that something the department tracks?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member. Absolutely, we track these, it's performance-based, there are contracts maybe for three years, five years, what have you, for the payroll rebate, and they have to create the jobs and maintain the jobs. There's criteria for each and every company to do so.
MR. EPSTEIN: I wonder if you have the data that would compare the number of additional jobs that were announced at the beginning of the various funding arrangements and those that are in place now, and if you don't have it with you at the moment, I'm wondering, could you arrange to table it with us either during the budget estimates process or back in the House?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the honourable member could be more specific. Is there a particular file here, or a year that you're looking at?
MR. EPSTEIN: The table I gave you yesterday goes back to 2003 and covers the period of 2003, 2004 and 2005, I suppose we can leave 2006 out of it since it's brand new. I'm wondering if you could take the 2003, 2004 and 2005 and let us know the numbers. I see you have a staff member coming. I don't know if that means we have an answer right now or not.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member, you're asking for 2003, 2004, and 2005 and the companies that are listed here? Absolutely, we will provide that.
[Page 75]
MR. EPSTEIN: That's great, thanks very much. If there's any problem or question, I would certainly just invite your staff to get hold of us at the caucus office, that would be fine, we'd be happy to clarify anything if there's any doubt, although I think the list is pretty clear.
MR. HURLBURT: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. Just for clarity, honourable member, do you want that delivered to your caucus or do you want it yourself?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we'll have it tabled here at the committee and then those are all sent out to the caucus, as normal practice.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, by the time we get all this data the committee may have risen.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That can be forwarded to the various caucuses, as is the habit, if that's okay, Mr. Minister. Is that okay, member?
MR. EPSTEIN: That would be just fine, thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You may continue.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, just for clarity, I think the honourable member is asking the status of the existing jobs when the contract was made with - pick any one of the companies, the jobs that were promised and the jobs we are creating. Is that what you're asking?
MR. EPSTEIN: Absolutely, and whether they continue to exist. I'll just give you an example to illustrate. If you go back to the 2003 list, there's Convergys call centre in Truro, the estimate was for 300 new jobs. The question would be, how many jobs were created, 2003, 2004 and 2005? If the number went up - did it go down? What happened to it over that time? What's the current state of play? I don't want to make it too complicated, but to just let us know what happened during the three years from then until now, or the two years from then until now, for the 2004 list.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, we will have that document as soon as possible. If we cannot get it back to the committee, it will go to the caucuses.
MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you. If I may continue, I want to pursue the theme that emerged this morning with some of my colleagues about rural economic development. I'd like to draw the minister's attention to the fact that my Party's caucus now includes a member for Shelburne; one for Queens; we have, of course, Hants East, which we've had for a while; we have now two Pictou seats; and we have two in Cape Breton, which we've had for a while. You'll know from the questions from my colleague, the member for Halifax Atlantic that, at least in part, Halifax Atlantic, although in HRM, has a suburban or a rural dimension to it, as well. We have a very strong interest in rural economic development. That has always been the
[Page 76]
case, but now it's additionally supported by having members directly representing some of those areas.
I wanted to see if we could have a bit of a discussion about where it is the Office of Economic Development thinks we might be able to go with economic development outside of HRM - I suppose outside of the CBRM, as well, as another urban node - and I want to point out what I think are some of the problems with rural economic development at the moment. I guess, firstly, whether the minister thinks we're understanding the problem correctly and, if so, whether he can make any suggestions as to where he thinks things might be going.
Here are the general difficulties. It seems to me that most of the rural areas of the province have a number of economic development problems that are broadly quite common. One is that there's an out-migration of the population. There are simply dwindling numbers of people and, largely, that means young folks, or folks in their prime working years. So that creates a second problem, which is another aspect of the demographics. It means there's an aging population in many of the rural areas. On top of that, it seems to me that a lot of the economic activity in those areas is very tied to natural resources and that there are some potential weaknesses or, in fact, real actual weaknesses in the different sectors in natural resources, and I would like to illustrate some of them.
I am moved to draw this to the minister's attention because of his comment yesterday about fish processing. He pointed, in passing, to the difficulty of making sure that fish that's caught in our waters is actually processed here. I agree with him, I think that is a real problem. I want to get to that in a minute, because it's not obvious to me why it is that we as a province, and his government in particular, might not be able to do a bit more about it.
Let's look at some of the natural resources activities. Let's start with mining. Mining has never really been a huge economic activity in Nova Scotia. I mean, we've had our time in the past, and there may be a little more underground coal mining perhaps if Donkin ever happens. We have a little open-pit coal mining. We have some low-level mining.
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. HURLBURT: It's not if, it's when it happens at Donkin.
MR. EPSTEIN: Well, I'm interested to hear the minister say that it's when. My understanding was that the company that ended up with the rights essentially committed themselves to exploring the possibility and seeing whether it's economically viable, but I'll take that as an expression of the minister's optimism. We have never really been a powerhouse in mining, and we're certainly not now. There is low-level activity going on around the province.
In agriculture, although we have a fair bit of activity, we hear on a regular basis from producers in different parts of agriculture about the difficulties that they're facing, whether
[Page 77]
it's hog producers or beef producers or, indeed, vegetable producers, and they complain about their costs, they complain about retailers and, indeed, looking, as the minister emphasized yesterday, at the global picture, one of the things that's happening in agriculture, of course, is that there are now World Trade Organization negotiations going on that are moving in the direction of hitting at supply-managed systems. So dairy, for example, may well find itself with not much of a niche. Opportunities for government subsidies to agriculture may disappear or be phased out either completely or in a severe way as a result of international negotiations over the coming decade, who knows, but the prospect is not necessarily all that good.
In forestry, we had some discussion yesterday about difficulties. We know that there is some serious degradation of our forest resources that we're highly oriented towards pulp and paper, that pulp and paper is a highly competitive commodity worldwide. We see the problems now with Stora Enso. The other two major pulp and paper plants may have difficulties. I know we're not directly affected by the softwood lumber agreement, but if there are problems with the U.S. economy, we can see that.
So all of these are difficulties in natural resource areas, and that gets us down to fish, and at that point Nova Scotia is certainly blessed because we have enormous fishing resources here. We have done very well in terms of the volume and dollar value of the commodity that comes with fishing, but the part of it that puzzles me enormously in the fishing industry is the processing side - precisely the point the minister pointed to yesterday.
Basic economics shows us that we are going to do better as a province if we are processing the product here rather than shipping the raw product, or a semi-processed product, somewhere else, yet we have seen difficulties in Canso and in Cape Breton over fish processing plants. It's not that the fish, finfish or shellfish, are not there - we are certainly bringing them in from our waters - it's a separate question as to whether there might be some weaknesses there, but we have tended to do quite well in terms of volume and dollar value there. What I find odd is that there's not the value added, and I'm wondering why it is that Nova Scotia is not requiring the processing of fish here - is it because the province sees a legal barrier, or is it just unwilling to regulate in that area? I'm wondering if the minister can help me understand this.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member. There are trade barriers here, interprovincial, the United States. In my home community they are bringing fish in from Iceland to be salted and packaged and shipped back out. So there are trade barriers here that we have to deal with, with other jurisdictions, like the crab fisheries up the eastern end, with P.E.I. and Nova Scotia. Those are issues that I guess would be flagged through the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture - but not to make light of it, we have many tools at our disposal and we have to work with those tools, and we have lots of resources in this province and I think that those are key elements.
[Page 78]
Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member. You're right on, we do have lots of resources in this province and I think that we have to expand on them. That's what I've been saying from day one, when I came into this department - I want to explore every opportunity there is in every part of this province to see if there are opportunities that we can expand for sustainable jobs, using our own resources that we have.
MR. EPSTEIN: This helps a little bit to clarify the situation, but many of us in Nova Scotia look at Newfoundland and Labrador, which indeed has protected its fish processing sector, and it has managed to do that through domestic legislation in the province. It has managed to do that and allow itself to do it through exemptions in internal and international trade agreements.
I'm wondering, is the minister telling us that he thinks Nova Scotia would not prevail if it attempted to achieve exemptions, or it thinks we're simply better off economically without particular protections for our processing industry?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, that's a very slippery road to go down. What I'm saying is that we have interprovincial trade and until I have an opportunity to examine all those and talk to my colleague from Fisheries and Aquaculture, I think we want to keep our relation building with the United States, Iceland, P.E.I., New Brunswick, all areas. But I really don't want to go down that road right now until I've had more time to think about it and have had more dialogue with my department and my colleagues who sit around the table with me.
MR. EPSTEIN: I can well appreciate that and it's a considered position. I would certainly encourage the minister to consult with his colleagues in Fisheries and Agriculture, but certainly in Fisheries, because if there is going to be any hope for rural economic development in our province, it seems to me that at least part of the answer has to be in processing our own product as much as we possibly can. It just seems a glaring problem, when we consider the potential in the rural areas, that this has not been addressed and that it continues to be an aggravating problem.
We know that some small communities are so dependent on their fish processing plants that it really means the end of their existence as a community if those plants go. We are seeing that in some communities in Nova Scotia, the willingness of Clearwater, for example, to process its product - even product that comes from Nova Scotia waters - in Newfoundland and Labrador is causing great difficulties in some communities, and this becomes just highly problematic.
That gets me to the next aspect of the natural resource sector in the rural areas, and that's energy. It seems to me that this also has huge potential in the rural areas, and I wonder if the minister has any comments for us about this. I know, of course, there's a separate Department of Energy and I know that's at least in part a little bit outside his bailiwick, but inevitably all departments come together a little bit, and if there is going to be any chance for
[Page 79]
new industries to develop in the rural areas it also looks as if energy is perhaps one of those areas where we have an enormous potential - so I'm wondering, has the minister any general comments about this?
I ask because I don't think it was really featured in his introductory statement yesterday, and then I have some follow-ups. I'm really asking about the potential, does the minister see potential and, if so, what is it?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you, I don't want to steal the thunder of the Department of Energy, but I can tell the honourable member that my department works with all departments across government to see ways in which we can expand and create renewable energy here within our province. We're very proud of the fact that we have one of the largest wind farms in Yarmouth County, in the Pubnico area. I think there's great potential there.
Also, being a former Minister of Natural Resources, I know there were entrepreneurs in talking to me and they're talking to Energy right now about tidal power. We have great tides here in our province and there are opportunities there, but we have to make sure there are safeguards for our fish habitat, for our environment, but I think there is great potential in the future in this province for renewable power.
MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, and I agree. I think that it's the renewable aspects of energy that are of the greatest potential here. I visited the Pubnico wind farm in August 2005, and I was very impressed with the operation there. It's good to see so many windmills actually up and running.
Here's the problem I see. It is, when it comes to the regulation of the electricity market, the studies that have been done for your government over the last few years have not tended in any helpful way to open up the market, at least domestically, for renewable energy. Really what that amounts to here is a program to phase out the existing coal- and oil-fired generating plants and bring on renewables as much as we can. Even when this is looked at, the studies have tended, for whatever reason, to recommend such a small phasing in of a guaranteed proportion of the market for renewables that there has not been much useful economic spinoff there.
When we see the government talking in terms of sustainable prosperity, or the idea of renewable energy, wind as an example, tide as another example, for many of us that would seem to fit, ideally, with that model. Yet, the language of economic development that appears in that document doesn't seem to be reflected in some of the documents and studies that have been done for the electricity marketplace. I have in mind the Fournier task force from a couple of years ago, where they're recommending such a small percentage of the domestic Nova Scotia marketplace for renewables that it has allowed Nova Scotia Power to move extremely slowly on this.
[Page 80]
[10:15 a.m.]
What I'm wondering is whether this is something that is still the policy of the government or whether the government is interested in opening up the domestic Nova Scotia marketplace more rapidly than I think the 2.5 per cent target figure that was mentioned in the Fournier task force a couple of years ago? Are we on a more aggressive track now?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member, I can assure the member that my department works very closely with the Department of Energy. That file was, naturally, under the Department of Energy, but we have worked with them very closely. The URB sets the rates here in the province.
I'd like to expand just a bit more. I've been involved with Clare Energy, they are in motion right now, they hired their consultant - as I was reading my e-mails last evening - last week to advance the Clare Energy Project that they have. They have the Université Sainte-Anne, the councils, the RDAs, our department, the Department of Energy, and the Department of Natural Resources. They're all sitting around a table exploring new ideas for renewable energy and that little pocket of our province, which I think is a great stepping stone for this province.
I congratulate him for having the foresight and moving that project ahead. That has been on the burner now for a fair amount of time, but they are advancing it. Maybe the honourable member could get updated with the Clare Energy, where they are on that. I'm sure that when they do estimates with the Department of Energy that they can bring him up to speed on that file also. They're advancing it very well.
If I may, just in closing, on that note, it's community-driven. That is what intrigues me the most, it's community-driven, it is the councils, it is the business community, it is the sawmill operators, the university, it's very diverse. The hog farm in the Clare area is involved very heavily in renewable energy for that community. I think that we're on the right road here, but we have to keep working through it, and that community is determined to work through it.So I think it's good news for the province and for the Clare area.
MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you. That's helpful and I would just like to suggest that perhaps one of the major advances in planning for economic development, particularly in rural areas, would be some revamping of our energy strategy in a coherent form that tended to nudge the opening up of the domestic marketplace for renewables. I think it would be a very good idea and extremely helpful because I think it's one of the few sectors where the rural areas stand a very good chance of doing something that has economic benefits, that has environmental benefits, and that is likely to be ongoing and sustainable. I think it's really a crucial activity.
Can the minister bring us up to date with respect to any tidal energy projects, and just tell us the current state of play with respect to tidal energy then?
[Page 81]
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you, again that file is with the Department of Energy, but I just brought it to the table as the previous Minister of Natural Resources - it was flagged with me at that department and there are issues there that had to be dealt with before we could advance it any further. There had to be policies within the province, but DFO had to be involved in the process, naturally - we have to be very protective of our species and make sure that there was no danger to them - and numerous other issues had to be dealt with. But it is advancing and I'm sure that the Department of Energy could bring the honourable member more up to speed on that file.
MR. EPSTEIN: I'll make sure I follow-up there.
I think my colleague, the member for Pictou East, has questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Pictou East, and you have eight minutes.
MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: I want to raise a couple of issues which may be a little parochial. The Office of Economic Development has set a priority geared to business retention and expansion, does the mandate also include re-establishment? What I'm talking about here is that Lismore, in Pictou East, was caught in a complex sale to Polar Foods in P.E.I., where local landings ended up being processed in Prince Edward Island. This was followed by the receivership of Polar, with no reflection whatsoever on Lismore's viability, and really what I want to know today is whether the Economic Development Department has Lismore on the radar in any way, with the new initiatives that are outlined.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member. If there are opportunities there our department would definitely look at it, and if the member has additional information or if he wants to talk to me later, I would dearly love to hear from him. If there's a chance for us to have jobs in this province, our department is there to look at it.
MR. MACKINNON: Well, the situation is that former management is still available, and there is a trained workforce that is still there. The local resource is going to Prince Edward Island, at least part of it for processing. The operation has been down for two years and, unless we do something very quickly, we will lose some of the things that are in place that should be fairly easy to pick up on. Part of the outline in the budget information is working with business to develop value-added products and adopt innovative new procedures and technologies, and what a place to do that. I mean, we have so much to offer there. I came in here to make sure that the issue was in fact on record and that your department is looking at this area, and this opportunity, really.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, to my knowledge, I thought the workers at the plant in question had taken up opportunities at other plants, but if there are opportunities there, if there's something there, if the member wants to speak to me after estimates or anytime, I would be more than willing to listen to see if there are opportunities.
[Page 82]
MR. MACKINNON: Some of the opportunities, including former management, some of the opportunities are many, many miles away. Some of the opportunities are in Prince Edward Island, with our product. Some of the opportunities that supposedly exist are a few weeks of work in a herring operation, a few weeks of work over in Caribou on the other side of the county, a few weeks' work over in Cape John, which is many, many miles away. The travelling costs alone eat up most of the value of the income, and it's just a deplorable situation. It's one of the things that is the most pressing need, I believe, in Pictou East. Please make sure that it's on the radar, and there will be additional information, a lot of additional information, because we're working with that community, and the community is becoming quite united to do something.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I'll take that under advisement. If I'm reading this correctly, the honourable member will talk to me after.
MR. MACKINNON: Thank you. I appreciate that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. The time for the NDP caucus has expired. With the Liberal caucus having no questions, and I assume the government having no questions, we shall go back to the member for Queens.
The honourable member for Queens.
MS. VICKI CONRAD: I just wanted to follow up on some of the examples and questions and points that my colleague, the member for Halifax Chebucto, made earlier. In regard to the Department of Economic Development working closely with the Department of Energy and looking toward some economic development in the areas of renewable energy, and I do understand that Pubnico is one of the largest, but the only wind field that we do have here. (Interruption) The largest.
MR. HURLBURT: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: Yes, pretty much the only - I know there are a few others under development.
MR. HURLBURT: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: I am familiar with the Clare Energy Project, and I understand that's more of a pilot project. It is community-driven, and I think it's a wonderful model for other communities to look to and also develop their own pilot project. I think there is a distinct role for aggressive leadership from the province in terms of spearheading the larger projects that could come to Nova Scotia. I'm thinking more about manufacturing for renewable energy projects. I understand that the queue, for example, to bring in wind turbines that are being manufactured in European countries, or in China, is somewhere up to two years for one
[Page 83]
turbine, and if a company is not able to get in the queue for some time for several turbines, then the development of wind projects across this province is really going to be slow.
I think we have opportunity here in the province to look at manufacturing, perhaps to start on a small scale. We have the workforce in place. We have the talent here in Nova Scotia to look at attracting industry that would like to come to Nova Scotia and look at manufacturing parts, whether they be for wind turbines or whether they be in tidal projects. I think we do need to grow that industry and manufacturing sector back up again in Nova Scotia - we seem to have lost a lot of our major industries over the years through downsizing and through changes in global markets. I think that's more of a province leadership role than a community-based one. Certainly the Clare Energy Project does demonstrate that community initiative getting on board, modelling themselves on projects from our European neighbours, but again I do think the leadership role is for more aggressive economic development in the manufacturing and industry sector.
In Queens, for example, we lost another major employer, Stenpro, and we have a lot of talented workers from Stenpro who are welders, who are machinists, and some of them are unfortunately relocating outside of the province - they are moving to Alberta, they are moving elsewhere to find work in their trade. We have the ability here in the province to really strengthen our tradespeople and to have this workforce in place to attract industry here to Nova Scotia to look at manufacturing. Even solar panels, just most recently there was a news release in the business section of the paper - and I forget what country but they have one of the largest manufacturing facilities for solar panels globally, and I think we need to really step up to the plate and take on those sorts of challenges - not that we can be playing on that world scale, but certainly to look after our own energy needs.
[10:30 a.m.]
Of course when we're talking about manufacturing and industry, we also have to strengthen the infrastructure, and of course that goes back to partnering with the Department of Transportation, as well, in strengthening the infrastructure to attract industry here. My question is, understanding that the Department of Economic Development is working in partnership with the Department of Energy and looking at possible projects through economic development and renewable energy, would the minister pursue those types of opportunities with the Department of Energy?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member. I can assure that member, and all members, that if there are opportunities we want to seize those opportunities, and we're working in conjunction with all other departments of government. I am very proud of the track record of this government, and our departments, regarding manufacturing in rural-based areas of this province of ours. In the last year alone, if you look at the companies that have located or expanded existing businesses for manufacturing in this province, I think our track record speaks for itself.
[Page 84]
MS. CONRAD: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, having a few more minutes, I was thinking I might follow up on a little bit of what we were talking about earlier in terms of infrastructure in the broad sense. What exactly is it that the minister sees the role of economic development in other departments? The sort of thing that I'm talking about, as we mentioned child care really in many ways is an essential element in developing and retaining a workforce in any given specific area.
There's also the whole question around what areas are deemed to be suitable for economic development. As the former Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations you are well aware of the importance of the structure of a municipality or a town and the geography of that and how that is, in fact, affected by governmental decisions. What does the Department of Economic Development see as its role in ensuring that zoning is appropriate and that zoning is amenable to small-scale economic development as well as the larger and more manufacturing-based enterprises. Do you have a place at the table?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, through you, I believe the Department of Economic Development's role is to lead, which I believe we have shown leadership in the past and we will in the future, working with other government departments, for example the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, the Department of Community Services to find the right environment for the right community, but not taking community and working community against community. That's not where I am. Where I am is if the glove fits, that's the area it should be.
If a private entrepreneur wants to set up in Pugwash, well, I'm not going to try to lure him to Yarmouth. If that's their decision, it's up to us to help him find the right tools to make it fit for that community if that's their decision.
Land use, zoning, was that your question?
MS. CONRAD: Yes, it's the question - zoning in terms of small and very, very local business and ensuring that communities are, as they say, liveable, which is also, in many ways, an element of infrastructure if you're going to retain workers in a given community, but to the degree that the placement of schools and so on is an encouragement to people to stay; the location of hospitals, so the Department of Health is involved. Even when you're looking at the location of a business, one of those essential things is waste disposal. That's a big part of many businesses. So do you have a place at the table in discussing these things in the municipal forum?
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member, I can assure the member that property that the Crown owns throughout the province, we stay
[Page 85]
very closely in tune with the municipality wherever that land is situated. We work with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. If there's a company that wants to locate, all parties involved have to be at the table to find the right mechanism and the right tools to make it fit for that community. We have to be very protective of our environment, land use issues, labour issues, the infrastructure, for example, as you said, schooling, hospitals, what have you. So there are always issues. Our role is to work with the company and with the communities, where they want to locate.
MS. CONRAD: Okay, I guess I realize that's a fairly broad question I'm asking. I would feel more reassured if I knew that, in fact, the Department of Economic Development was included in some ways in some of these community planning decisions to the degree that they will sometimes act to remove some of the possibilities for smaller scale economic development and necessarily involve sort of the injection . . .
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, if I may, not to interrupt, but that is what we have, they are called the RDAs. They work within the communities in the area they represent. I can tell the honourable member, I know in my own home community, our RDA is very active and very involved with land zoning for areas to make sure that we have our bedroom communities, we have our industrial areas, what have you, and our retail areas. That is a great tool that we have right now, and they are called RDAs.
MS. CONRAD: Are there RDAs in all areas of the province at this point, every area?
MR. HURLBURT: We have 14 in the province right now.
MS. CONRAD: So they blanket the province, okay.
MR. HURLBURT: Re-establishing one in the western valley.
MS. CONRAD: Okay, all right. Well, that sounds like a very - that's probably . . .
MR. HURLBURT: It is a great tool.
MS. CONRAD: The Department of Economic Development has a voice there, so that's good.
MR. HURLBURT: Yes.
MS. CONRAD: Well, perhaps those other questions will get answered at the RDA level. Thank you very much. As I say again, I look forward to meeting with you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Hants East.
[Page 86]
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister, and staff. I appreciate an opportunity to ask some questions. I'm really concerned about the sustainability of rural Nova Scotia. So I'd like to know if you have a vision for how to do that, how to keep people in rural Nova Scotia. Do you have any plan, something you're working towards, anything at all?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, if I may go back to our document, Opportunities for Sustainable Prosperity. I believe, and it's my firm belief, that all of us have a very important role to play in this province and in our communities. It's for us to work with the community leaders to find opportunities, absolutely, to make sure there's an environment for our youth to stay in our communities to work. As I said yesterday here in the debates, I have three sons and one step-daughter, and I want to ensure there are opportunities for them. If they choose to stay in our province - I want them to stay in our province, naturally, but it's their decision - I think it's up to us to find every opportunity to make the environment right for those people to be able to stay in this province, to work and to raise their families.
MR. MACDONELL: What are you doing to create that environment? You talked about creating an environment for young people to stay and I'd like to know what you're doing to create that environment.
MR. HURLBURT: We have many tools at our disposal, Mr. Chairman, that are creating that environment. As I mentioned earlier, that's working with our RDAs. The RDAs are a very key element for rural economic development in our province. We have the credit union program for entrepreneurs to start and enhance existing businesses. There are community economic development investment funds. We've made a commitment that we will have broadband in every community, 100 per cent, across this province.
There are many tools for us to work with but, as I said earlier and I know I'm repeating myself, I do not believe it's up to one individual. It's up to all of us, collectively, to work within our communities. I know the honourable member is very in tune with his own community, and I know that if there's an opportunity, he will bring it to me and we will work together to see if we can make it a reality for that community. I'll do that in every community, Mr. Chairman, because I firmly believe that the opportunities are there. We have to seize the opportunities, and we can only do it working, collectively, together.
MR. MACDONELL: I guess I would be wondering, how do you determine the success? You mentioned these tools, but how do you determine whether those tools are creating that environment, whether or not out-migration is existing at a rate that you don't like, because that seems to be the pattern? Young people are still leaving Nova Scotia, and actually leaving rural Nova Scotia, coming to HRM, quite often, or just leaving the province. So how are you determining whether those tools that you've mentioned are actually doing the job? Have you set some goals to stop the out-migration? What are you using as your measure stick to find out whether you're being successful?
[Page 87]
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, if I may, my role - I've been in this department a little over a week now - and my goals are, I can tell that member, to work very closely with the communities to make sure that we seize every opportunity that is in a community. I believe there are opportunities that maybe have been overlooked. Maybe it takes an outsider to tell us about that opportunity, or maybe we just have to turn that stone over and we'll find the opportunity ourselves. Working closely together, I believe we can make those opportunities, and we can create the environment for our youth to stay here in our province to work.
MR. MACDONELL: Well, I think that you're in a unique position. I think your role as the Minister of Economic Development shouldn't have what I would refer to as "artificial barriers". I find that the government pretty much sticks to its silos in the sense that I don't see any vision for growth of the rural economy, whether it's through economic development, agriculture, Department of Natural Resources, whatever. It's more of a "come see us and we'll see what we can do for you" instead of the departments going out and saying, we have an idea - would you be interested?
As far as the sustainability of the rural economy, I think there are a few basic laws that work in economies - supply and demand is a big one - but in rural Nova Scotia, I think you have to work with a raw product. We have raw natural resources and some of those are sustainable and renewable, like the agriculture and forestry and the fishery. I know our relationship in the fishery is not so clear because of the jurisdiction with the federal government.
Certainly in terms of forestry and agriculture, they have resources that are renewable. If you look at other resources that can offer economic value, in terms of mining and quarries, these resources are somewhat finite - when they're gone, they're gone. But they still have an economic impact and I think the province should look at what the potential is in terms of those renewable resources as well as the ones that are non-renewable, but should have a plan because those non-renewable ones are going to be gone.
But I don't see anybody really coming up with an overall strategy because we don't seem to recognize - well, Stora Enso is a prime example - that if a town is built around a mine and the mine shuts down, the resource is gone, then that town disappears. You have a whole service sector that can be developed around people being there - you need schools, you need gas stations, insurance agents, hospitals, salaries for those people, and all this goes into the economy.
[10:45 a.m.]
If you take the mine away, the rest of that won't stay. In this province, you can probably put a university somewhere in this province that's not connected to any particular other resources as long as people can come there. If there's a transportation network that can
[Page 88]
get them there, it really can probably exist on its own. It's one of those few things that you could do that you could generate jobs in an area.
But for the rest of it, in Nova Scotia we bring in about 9,000 carcasses of beef a month and we finish about 9,000 a year in this province. So we meet about a tenth of our consumer demand, maybe a twelfth of it, and this actually would seem to me to be one place where the province might want to look at economic development in terms of keeping young people there, job creation in terms of slaughter facilities, et cetera. I think they could look at enhancing the Department of Agriculture, which would create jobs, to offer expertise in this regard and I don't see any overall plan.
The other day we talked about Shaw's leaving and their inability to get the product in this province they needed, number one, and plus, I think they had a sole market so once they lost that, it was gone. Some of those things are not so easy to control.
But I don't see any great movement in terms of the agriculture or forestry sector, especially in value added to create wealth in rural Nova Scotia, not to mention our overall forestry practices that are going to lead to the demise of the industry anyway. So I guess my rant is about the fact that I don't see any overall vision from the government in terms of an economic development strategy that, number one, makes use of renewable resources in this province and the fact that we already generate a market of 1 million people who need some of those resources in terms of food, number one.
I would think that a healthy, attractive rural Nova Scotia would have an economic benefit in terms of tourism. In my constituency, we have one of the fastest growing areas east of Montreal. The corridor area which runs from Enfield to Shubenacadie is that area by and large. Most of those people - it's a bedroom community - work in the HRM, but also in my constituency we produce 30 per cent of the milk consumed in this province.
We have the site for the world's highest tides at Burntcoat Head, part of the Glooscap Trail goes through my constituency, one of the worst roads in the province, I might say - as a matter of fact, I probably have three of the worst roads in the province, but one of them is a tourist route that we're trying to attract people to come to this province. I look at how my constituents have been used by the government - not all that favorably. I have real concerns about trying to keep young families in the rural area of my constituency, trying to keep student numbers up so we can keep a school open along with attracting a doctor. From what I see in the province is a number of departments, none of which has any particular vision and certainly no overall vision for how to make use of those primary resources that we have and convert them into something that generates more wealth that we actually could keep young people there.
All of the things you mention are fine, the credit unions, the RDAs, but I don't have any clear indication that any of that is working - people are still leaving. So I'd really like to
[Page 89]
know your opinion of my opinion, and also whether you have any clear indicators if any of those things are working for the people of Nova Scotia.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I could go on here for an hour now, but I can tell the member that our government has a vision for this province and I can assure the member that our department has a vision for this province. That vision is working very, very closely with communities. I can tell that member that the local RDAs have their strategy that has been approved by all three levels of government. I can tell that member that my RDA in southwest shore has dialogue, an open concept, with all the communities involved. It's a full-day seminar and people come in and have input. They put their priorities in place for the upcoming year and they put that in their document. We support that, the local government supports that, the chambers of commerce support that. I think it is the right approach.
I can tell that member that this government, since we came to office in 1999, has improved transportation links in this province, we've improved education in this province, we've improved hospitals in this province - that's infrastructure that we need for economic growth in this province. Now I can also go a little bit further, the honourable member is talking mining. I can remember the member was sort of upset with me about my stand on mining when I was the Minister of Natural Resources, but mining is a key element. It's our own resource that we have in this province and we should seize the opportunity every chance we get. The spinoff from mining is tremendous and I can tell you I lived in it. I know, when we had the tin mine in Yarmouth, our communities were just flourishing with that when that was happening. There are opportunities and we have to seize those opportunities.
There are many other natural resources in this province and I think that we have to stay tuned with that and make sure that we develop every opportunity that we have. We have to work with our communities, and our RDAs are key. I'm sorry, I know I'm repeating myself, but the RDAs are a key tool that we have. That is community driven. Our department works very closely with the local RDAs in our province and it's a great tool. If the member is not up to speed with the RDA in his local community, I suggest maybe to talk to the RDA and the CEO and see what we can do. If I can help the member, I'm definitely here to help; if there are opportunities out there let's find them.
MR. MACDONELL: Thank you very much, I appreciate that. I am up to speed with my RDA, I talk to those people on a fairly regular basis. They are very good people to work with.
I certainly know a little bit about mining. I think that one of the largest open-pit mines perhaps in North America is not in my constituency, but it's just across the river in the constituency of the honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. A lot of my constituents work there at National Gypsum. Certainly we would like to see some kind of strategy someday where wallboard would be made, or more of it. I know there's a plant now in Nova Scotia, so I think lots of my constituents really wonder, when they see the trainload
[Page 90]
of gypsum leaving the area, day after day, why that wallboard could not be made in Nova Scotia.
It's not that I'm overtly against mining. I used mining as an example of a resource that runs out, but has the ability to create wealth around it, you know a community and paycheques and then a service community that has to service the needs of those people. So when the mine goes, all of that goes. The point I wanted to make is, we do have the possibility for resources that are renewable, that are not going to disappear if we manage them well, and that's in terms of agriculture and forestry, and I would see investments in those areas as important.
I think hanging your hat all in one area is dangerous, which we see with Stora Enso, the impact of that business in one area. So yes, I'm not saying that any of the things you have mentioned are negative things, it's just not clear to me how you measure whether or not they are working. In the agricultural sector right now, I think we could use a federally inspected facility that could take care of the cull cow issue, not to mention look at the value added side and try to take up a bigger share of the market that goes to our retail sector. I wonder if a thought like that is ever discussed around the Cabinet Table, where maybe the government would go to the cattle producers and say, would you be interested in this?
You're talking about this coming from the community up, which I think is great. I think community economic development is an important aspect of all this, but I often wonder if there's anybody at the helm of the ship looking down and saying, you know, we have something lacking here, here and here, let's go to those communities and see whether or not we can offer them something instead of it always coming from the bottom-up. I think that's really my question, does the government see things that they can be doing different from what you've indicated, that actually might offer incentives in the areas to generate economic development?
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I can assure the member that we do have good dialogue around the Cabinet Table. I can't disclose what happens at the Cabinet Table, but I can tell the member what I do outside the Cabinet Table. I do have dialogue with all my Cabinet colleagues and we're always looking for opportunities within our province to make it a better place to live and work. Our tools are there, we're working very closely together.
But I suggest that the member still get the document and read the document. The measures for Nova Scotia are performances right there. We have opportunity and we have 12 departments that work on this document. So is there room for improvement? There always is, there is always room, but it's up to us to find that area and we will, and we will be working to enhance any area that we can in this province.
MR. MACDONELL: Thank you. Maybe I'll close with this final comment. I know that last September, Pork Nova Scotia brought a plan to the province for that industry. I would see that industry as a valuable component in rural Nova Scotia, and particularly in the Valley
[Page 91]
of this province. Yet there is a group that has done all of what I would say that you have stated here today. It has come from the ground-up, it has gone through the community, they developed the proposal and nobody has addressed that proposal to this date.
I know you can say, well, I'm not the Minister of Agriculture - great, I understand that. But you are the Minister of Economic Development. I think it falls at your feet when it comes to economic development in whatever realm, and it's when things like that that I know have happened that the government has blatantly ignored, as far as I can see, and I think as far as the industry can see, and that is the type of information I think the government should really say, look, glad to have it, how can we help you, can we make this work? That did not happen.
So because of my critic areas, and for some of my personal interests, I have a real desire to see agriculture promoted. That desire is also along with the idea that I see it as a real wealth generator and an economic driver in this province. I don't see that being promoted or enhanced or used to its full potential.
We seem to go to call centres and whatever else, but not necessarily to the idea of making agriculture sustainable in the province. I think if governments are interested, number one, in not giving out any more money than they have to to that sector, then they should put policy and programs in place where actually the consumer dollar winds up in the hands of the producer to help pay him for what he produces. That would diminish or limit the amount of dollars that government keeps giving to shore up the industry in times of disaster. I think it would be a win-win for the government, because greater economic development in those communities means greater tax return to the province and you're sustaining those communities, keeping young people there, and much better for the economy.
So you may want to respond, but with that, I'll listen.
MR. RICHARD HURLBURT: I will take that under advisement, Madam Chairman.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Minister, as I've been going up and down in the elevator in the Centennial Building over the last number of months, I've been accompanied on many occasions by workers who are busily renovating different floors of the building. I think maybe the fifth, sixth, maybe the fourth, I'm not sure exactly of the extent of it, but I gather that your office is one of the new tenants in the building. Is that right?
[11:00 a.m.]
MR. HURLBURT: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: I'm wondering if you've moved in now, or you're about to?
[Page 92]
MR. HURLBURT: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, you have, okay.
MR. HURLBURT: Yes, we have moved in.
MR. EPSTEIN: Well, welcome to the building.
MR. HURLBURT: Thank you.
MR. EPSTEIN: That's the first thing. Secondly, I'm wondering, is this now in addition to the previous space or a replacement for the previous space?
MR. HURLBURT: It's a replacement of the previous space. We're on floors five and six of the Centennial Building.
MR. EPSTEIN: Any idea what's happening with the Trade Centre space?
MR. HURLBURT: No.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. I wonder, as well, if you can tell us whether this represents either an increase in the rentals that the office will have to pay or whether it's a reduction or it's a wash. Do you happen to know that? In asking that, I'm wondering as well about including the cost of renovations.
MR. HURLBURT: Madam Chairman, I'm sorry, I do not have that number at my disposal right now. I can assure the member I will get it if he wants it. It was a public tendering process that our department went through.
MR. EPSTEIN: I wasn't questioning the tendering, I was just wondering whether we're paying more or less, and if that figure is available, that would be a big help.
MR. HURLBURT: I will see that the member gets that figure. I apologize for my first answer, being at the Trade Centre, Nova Scotia Business Inc. is at the Trade Centre on the seventh floor.
MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, fine. Okay, thank you. I think that represents the end of the direct questioning, but I just want to make a short comment for the minister.
As will be evident from the interest shown by a number of members of my caucus, we're very concerned about economic development in Nova Scotia. It's something we're following very closely. We wish the minister, the office and NSBI well. I've said this at the Economic Development Committee on a number of occasions, we wish the office and NSBI well, but we worry. We're worried about some of the fundamentals of about the position of
[Page 93]
the Nova Scotia economy, we're worried about rural economic development, and we're worried about whether sustainability is really being taken as seriously as some of the policy documents claim. I assure the minister we're prepared to be very co-operative, but of course we will also be watching closely to look for solid implementation of the stated objectives. So thank you very much for being with us over the last few hours.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions? If not, I call on the honourable Minister of Economic Development for a closing statement.
MR. HURLBURT: First of all I want to thank all the committee for their questions, and we have taken numerous notes here, and I know there are concerns of economic development in all parts of our great province. My goal is to work with members regardless of their political stripe - we are all working for the same reason here, to represent our people and do what's right for our people, and that is my ultimate goal.
I want to thank the committee for the patience and understanding today. As you can imagine, I've been very busy learning about the Office of Economic Development and the five agencies that fall under my responsibility. I want to thank my support staff who were here today, they're very, very dedicated professionals and I look forward to working with them as we get on with the business of economic development in our province.
Madam Chairman, I thank you for the time here today.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E26 stand?
Resolution E26 stands.
Resolution E21 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $34,071,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Nova Scotia Business Inc., pursuant to the Estimate and the business plan of Nova Scotia Business Inc. be approved.
Resolution E38 - Resolved, that the business plans of the Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation, the Nova Scotia Innovation Corporation (InNOVAcorp), the Trade Centre Limited, and the Waterfront Development Corporation Limited be approved.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolutions E21 and E38 carry?
The resolutions are carried.
Next we have the Department of Energy, and I would ask that we give them a few minutes to get ready for their estimates.
[Page 94]
[11:07 a.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[11:08 a.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: If everyone would take their seats, we'll get started with the Department of Energy. I would like to start by welcoming everyone and ask that the minister start with opening comments and introduce the staff he has with him today.
HON. WILLIAM DOOKS: Madam Chairman, I apologize. Usually I'm chairing and that's why I started to take over, but I'm in a different role today.
Madam Chairman, I will introduce staff as I pass along my opening comments. Thank you. I am joined at the table today, or behind me, with Weldon Myers, Director of Finance for the Corporate Service Unit that supports my department; Bruce Cameron, the Department of Energy's Director of Strategic Policy and Services; and Allan Crandlemire, Director of Energy Management and Markets.
For the past year, the department has been undertaking a number of important initiatives related to renewable and non-renewable energy in Nova Scotia. We've been targeting important areas, including the following: energy efficiency and conservation, so we can help our climate and reduce energy costs for Nova Scotians; increase investment in our offshore and offshore exploration and development, so we can create new wealth and opportunities for Nova Scotia.
Currently, we are helping people better manage their energy costs through the energy efficiency programs like Smart Energy Choices. First of all, it has been helping homeowners purchase energy-efficient wood and wood pellet stoves, and is helping Nova Scotians buy solar hot water heating systems. By offering rebates on these appliances we are helping encourage more Nova Scotians to make smarter energy choices. We will continue to help Nova Scotians make more energy-efficient decisions in their household as we roll out our oil heating system incentive later this summer. We know that more than 25 per cent of Nova Scotians plan to make energy-efficient upgrades to their homes this year alone.
With the news on April 12th that the federal government would discontinue their program in this area, the EnerGuide for Houses program, we are looking at ways to fill in this gap. When we launched Smart Energy Choices last Fall, it did include additional provincial incentives to the EnerGuide for Houses program. We also are helping to diversify the power supply in Nova Scotia. More renewable energy from sources like wind, tidal, biomass and solar also means significant reduced air emissions that lead to climate change. Our opportunity is to create the right conditions to grow this supply.
We've been working with industry stakeholders to develop strategies on how to increase the amount of renewables on our power grid. Currently we have about 10 per cent of the renewable energy. We want more renewables.
[Page 95]
To seize this opportunity, government will introduce regulations in the coming year requiring an increase in the amount of new renewable energies on our electrical grid by 5 per cent by 2010 and by 10 per cent by 2013. We also need to increase our investment in offshore and onshore exploration and development.
Most recently, the offshore industry received a shot in the arm with the news that our government has reached an OSEA with EnCana Corporation. The OSEA brings us one step closer to developing the Deep Panuke Project. Our OSEA is a win-win agreement. The agreement will create new jobs and opportunities. We have guarantees for work commitments both in terms of personal hours and in terms of the type of work to be completed.
We're looking at construction of an accommodation module, new supply boat, fire boom, subsea protection devices and pipeline coating. This binding agreement also contains benefits for research and development, education and training. This amounts to .5 per cent of gross revenues. I'm proud to say we also have negotiated new opportunities for developing our offshore energy industry. This agreement calls for EnCana to provide financial support in building of five onshore rigs.
To spur investment, we're going to build our knowledge on our offshore and then make this information available to interested investors and researchers. Our government's most recent forecast for fiscal year 2006-07 is that the Sable Offshore Energy Project will deliver $280 million in royalty payments for the Province of Nova Scotia. For the Sable project, I expect they will be pumping gas into the next decade, and our goal is to get Deep Panuke on track so that when Sable is winding down, Deep Panuke will be gearing up.
In closing, let me say that the department intends to continue working hard in all of these areas listed above, and more. I look forward to another successful year from the Department of Energy staffing - and, Madam Chairman, I must say how delighted I am to work with the staff at the Department of Energy. They're alive, they're creative, and I believe over the past few years we certainly have the incentive and also the attitude to move forward in these different areas.
So I'm open for questions.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We will go to the Official Opposition.
The honourable member for Cape Breton Centre.
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I would like to say a few words and then I'll get to some questioning of the minister.
First of all, I appreciate the minister's direct and succinct comments. I must say I've been Energy Critic now for about three or four years, and there's the adage "familiarity breeds contempt" - well, I've got to say that's just the opposite about working with the staff, Mr.
[Page 96]
Minister, familiarity has I think brought on reassurance, not contempt, because I've got to say they're a very capable, honest and forthright staff, and I wish that you would relay that to your staff who are not here today. I will say that from a personal perspective and the perspective of our caucus staff, when we're looking for information we don't always agree on, they're always forthright, honest and very accommodating with the information. That makes things better not only for us, but for all Nova Scotians, and these women and men should be commended for that.
[11:15 a.m.]
So, Mr Minister, my first go-round today is going to be, I think, in a lot of areas, and I'll probably from time to time lose some focus because it's going to be on many things - it's going to be obviously on offshore exploration, but it's also going to talk about other areas around Nova Scotia Power, obviously Deep Panuke renewables, and stuff like that. So if I appear scattered in my questioning, I want to apologize up front, but I think we want to get in as many things as we can. I don't think we should be here - I wouldn't use the term wasting staff's time, but I think staff have very important things to do, as this is important, and I will try to be as concise as possible.
With that said, I'm not going to get into Deep Panuke right away, but it has taken us quite awhile - the bill has been reintroduced, I think it's Bill No. 18, on offshore health and safety. It has been over three years in coming and I realize that some of this delay was caused by trying to make sure that all areas reflect the same types of rules, that the Nova Scotia offshore would look the same as the Newfoundland and Labrador offshore as it relates to health and safety. I would like to hear more detail from you, Mr. Minister. You know, it took us three years - I know you weren't the minister for that whole period, and that's appreciated, but, you know, why did it take so long to get there, because I'm someone who, and you've worked in that industry too, and OH&S is just so paramount when it comes to those things, so could you fill that gap in for me?
MR. DOOKS: Yes, thank you. You know, once again to all Parties in the House and to all people in Nova Scotia and to all people in Canada, safety is very important. Offshore is a somewhat different business than onshore, so it requires different regulations. You know and we know that about three years ago, I guess, we introduced our bill here in the House - I can remember long discussions about that in caucus - and the reason why we introduced it was to clearly send a message to our partners in Newfoundland and Labrador, and to the federal level of government, that we are very serious about offshore safety. As you are aware now, the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board regulates safety in the offshore in regard to their plan that they put in place in the development plan.
Basically, to share more information on that, we know where we want to go and Newfoundland and Labrador at this time knows where they want to go and together, all three of us, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, and the federal government, simply have to agree on all things, and we are coming very close on that. It's just a matter of time that we
[Page 97]
feel, in the department, that Newfoundland and Labrador will introduce their bill and also the federal government, I'm hoping, will introduce theirs.
The point is that the bill is before our House now. That bill will change, you know that and I know that, and that's the process we're going to be involved in. We have put a bill there with the intent to encourage Newfoundland and Labrador and the federal government to move quickly on this and to tell them how important it is, but yet at the end of the day when the bill is debated in the House, that's when your Party and the Liberal Party and our Party can amend this.
I hope I'm bringing some answers to your question. It's the intent of the government, it's the intent of the department and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board to get this bill in place, but we have to rely on the other partners so that we can have a partnership with them. We do not want someone from Nova Scotia working offshore in Newfoundland and Labrador and there would be a different standard in safety regulations. So, look, we're encouraging the feds to move quickly on it - I hope that your caucus will also write a letter to the federal government to say how important this is.
MR. CORBETT: I appreciate that answer. I guess the part I'm missing here is that in discussions with your department a few years back, the idea - and it was a fairly open discussion - I guess I will paraphrase and say the idea was, look, how about just keeping your powder dry on this, we're working towards bringing a bill forward that when it's brought forward all interested parties will be onside. I took that to mean Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, and the federal government, so I'm a little bit worried that today those three aren't in sync and that this bill has to come forward as kind of a push or a shove for those other two parties.
MR. DOOKS: I think I was a little short in giving you my answer. The point is, we do agree with Newfoundland and Labrador now, and the feds, about what's going to be the guts of the bill. The point now is the feds have to draft the bill. It's to that point, and it takes a certain amount of time for these things to go through - you are aware of that, but I think we have made tremendous accomplishments dealing with Newfoundland and Labrador and the feds, and we're just waiting for the feds to draft the bill and we're in business.
So it's a timing issue now. I still want you to feel confident and believe in the mechanism that's in place now, with the offshore board having a mechanism there that's in place. Also, I will tell you, Frank - is it okay if I call you Frank in committee?
MR. CORBETT: Absolutely, Bill.
MR. DOOKS: Thank you very much - I can't let go of that chairman thing.
The Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board - I haven't delivered this to the House, but I'm going to next week and I brought it along with me today in anticipation that
[Page 98]
you may have a question, and I want to pass this along. It explains more or less what has taken place in the offshore in regard to safety. It's very clear, some stats here, about what is taking place. So I'm going to give you this to read, and I think this will answer your questions until we get the drafting finished and until we move forward with this.
To be quite honest with you, it has been a real issue for the department, it has been a real issue with the industry, to get this legislation in place and passed. As I said earlier, safety is very important to this government and I know to everyone. So I will pass this along to the committee and you can look forward to having that tabled in the House, and you will be up on everybody, you will know what's coming - you heard it here first, Frank.
MR. CORBETT: There is an assumption I can read, let alone comprehend.
The reason this is a problem for me, if it can be categorized as a problem, is just that well, I have a great deal of faith in the industry and that they police it the best way they can. I'm in no way or shape casting aspersions, but there is the pre-eminent idea around workplace health and safety that the regulator can't be the police officer too, the industry can't either.
That's what makes me afraid here. I'm just a little bit worried when we're waiting on the feds to do something. I'm not saying who's in power, that makes not as much difference as we know how slow those wheels grind. The fact of the matter is that we're in place and I'd be much more comfortable if we knew a timeline - to use that old phrase "soon, very soon." - if we knew what we were dealing with, if the feds would tell our caucus, or indeed the ministry, what type of timeline they're looking at of tabling legislation and hopefully having it pass.
We're in the enviable position, I think, in some ways, of not only having this House in a minority situation, but the federal House, as well. We can also give all our own people a little kick if that was a matter of expediting that. So I would be interested if you would have any idea about timelines or if you took that under advisement and said when the timelines became somewhat clear to you that you would enter discussions with us as much as that would permit.
MR. DOOKS: Earlier on we had a discussion outside the room and I told you that I would answer the questions to the best of my ability and to the best of my knowledge. I don't have a timeline at this point, but when the day comes that there is a timeline in place, I'll share that with your caucus and you, as critic.
Both the federal government and the provincial government have to pass regulations on offshore safety. Believe me, if it were up to us, I would be moving aggressively ahead and, by this time, I would have introduced the bill to be passed in its entirety. What I'll do, once again, just keep this as a priority of the department, keep abreast of any information that would be coming from the federal level, and I will share it with you. It's very important, and
[Page 99]
we do need this bill passed. The minister before me was supportive of this, and I suggest all Nova Scotians are supportive of this.
You're quite right, I said there is a mechanism in place with the offshore board, yes, but we need a set of rules that are firm and one that we can rely on, and as the industry does take a positive approach towards safety, they need the legislation to back up what they're doing too so that certain issues cannot be disputed.
I thought I might have had news for you today, I was hoping I would have news to share with you that this was coming before - at least in the Fall, but at that time, as I said, I just don't know, but we'll certainly move forward.
MR. CORBETT: In closing that up, close the loop on it, our Party would like to be kept informed of timelines, and as this legislation goes forward in both Houses, that this can be done as expeditiously as possible. Like I said, we've been waiting three years on it. I understand what some of the holdups were. I guess I pine for the old days when people clearly defined federal responsibilities and provincial responsibilities. You used to have a Labour Standards Code, and one would be federal and one would be provincial and you knew whose responsibility it was.
We often have, now, troubles when there's a mix involved. I just hope the sooner we can do this, the better. I believe the proponents in the offshore work as safely as they can with the rules and they understand that. It is always good at the end of the day - most drivers drive as safely as they can, but there are consequences for those who don't. I think that's what we want to see here.
Just turning off that, going to last week's announcement on Deep Panuke, I think anybody who lives in the province here, you may disagree about the details and so on but you have to be happy for the overall announcement. We'll always fight over the small stuff, I think, rather than the big picture around Deep Panuke, but beyond the press announcements and stuff like that, I'd really like to see some explanation around - and these are meant to maybe help you, not deter - can you explain to me about the onshore platforms, the construction, what that means and where do you see them going and so on? Also, if you could talk more about the supply vessel too.
MR. DOOKS: I'm a little confused, just repeat the question, please.
MR. CORBETT: In the announcement last week they were talking about the construction of, I think it was two or three onshore rigs . . .
MR. DOOKS: Onshore rigs - five.
MR. CORBETT: Five.
[Page 100]
MR. DOOKS: It's a part of the agreement, yes, okay, I can talk about that.
MR. CORBETT: Where would you see them use that? I like to put my oar to water and say that it will all be fabricated in Cape Breton - that's my ulterior motive.
MR. DOOKS: Cape Breton is important. I apologize, I just had to clarify the question.
Basically a part of the OSEA, in the agreement I think you understand that was for EnCana to support the building of five onshore rigs in Nova Scotia. EnCana is a very large company and it does a lot of drilling on land - I don't know if people are aware of that, but I guess the majority of its work is on land in different parts of the world - they do not own, or I would suggest that they do not own their own rigs for drilling on land, they lease them from different companies, and many companies, because of the record of EnCana, are standing in line to wait for EnCana to enter into an agreement to lease their rigs. So EnCana has a tremendous power, so to speak, in the business world to encourage people who lease to them, persuasion to where they should have their rigs built.
[11:30 a.m]
We've entered into the agreement - the OSEA was that EnCana should encourage companies to build five land-based rigs in Nova Scotia and also to contribute $1 million towards each rig, which adds up to a lot of money, $5 million. The reason for this is to create work for Nova Scotians, and it's very clear that anyone who is in fabrication or in welding, or has any knowledge through a bidding process, would be able to bid for the building of components or parts of the rigs - also which include many fabrication shops in Canso or the Strait area or down in Sydney and North Sydney and so on. The intent of this agreement was to benefit all Nova Scotians, anybody who is in the industry will in return be able to bid for one or more of five rigs.
Each rig can cost anywhere from $4 million to $8 million, so $40 million is a lot of work. So that's one small part of this OSEA, a very important part with the focus of we're going to give you something that belongs to Nova Scotians, what are you going to give to us? So many things have been in place to benefit Nova Scotians, but there have been no specifics on who in Nova Scotia or what area should get the work. We can identify the different places in Nova Scotia that do offshore work, in Canso - or the Strait area I should say, I still call it Canso - and/or Sydney, Dartmouth and Halifax, and some on the South Shore as well. Some small fabrication shop may be in Musquodoboit Harbour - we have a couple of small fabrication shops - when a bigger company gets the tender, they'll tender out small parts of this.
So, yes, people in your area, people in my area, will benefit by this, so it's very important - 30, 40, 50 million, maybe more. Not only that, the important thing is that once the companies get organized to build these onshore rigs, do you think it will stop at four or five or six? No. We have a record in Nova Scotia to be very efficient, to be on time, a good
[Page 101]
workforce, capable, intellectual type of workforce. So this is an incentive to start a brand new industry, as far as I'm concerned, on actually building land-based rigs.
In the past we've focused a lot on offshore development and we are starting to see the benefits, or we've enjoyed benefits of it, but the department has to have a vision, and our vision is to continue to push with offshore development and encourage people through whole things we can talk about later, but also, let's look at onshore drilling. The department recently has given money to universities to do a lot of research on offshore, but research is also starting onshore, and there are actually some places that have been identified now, onshore, for drilling exploration that takes place.
I see a movement in the department to advance on this and to move rapidly and try to get some gas produced onshore as well as offshore. The cost of drilling on land is much cheaper, much, much, much cheaper, so we encourage that.
MR. CORBETT: I think when we see these types of benefits coming, they are benefits when we have these rigs being built here, the question always comes back to the availability of human resources to do this work. I think, as you stated, and I concur with you that we have a very good workforce. We have a bright workforce. We have a workforce that's probably second to none, but we have also seen in the not too distant past, stories from firms from the oil patch in Alberta coming out and taking full classes from NSCC, and taking them out there. I'm always kind of two minds of that, because I wish the work was here for them at the time, but I also wish them well because we've educated them to enter the workforce, and that work happens to be in Alberta instead of here.
I always have a fear, when we see the possibilities of this type of work, do we end up with a kind of black hole here without the availability of trained human resources? I had the pleasure of meeting some folks from Shell a few weeks ago and talking about their play, and basically, they would take everybody we would send them. I would say, look, let us fill our jobs and we'll call you back when we need you, but the reality is I want people employed.
If we're committing, in Canada, to building these platforms, what are we doing to ensure that we have the available human resource to fit those capacities?
MR. DOOKS: Once again, we have recognized that there's a shortage of tradespeople in certain professions. I don't think that's a secret. You're not hearing it here first today. On the other hand, we have very good community colleges and very good universities, because some programs have to be offered in university and then traded off in community colleges. I've been to Marconi Campus in Cape Breton, in Sydney. We have a new community college opening up in Woodside, shortly. The Minister of Education understands there's a shortage of certain tradespeople in certain trades. It's an issue we talk about in Cabinet, and we're making sure certain initiatives are put in place to create seats for tradespeople.
[Page 102]
As I said, when I was down in Marconi Campus, they're to such an advanced position that they're actually bringing exchange students in from countries overseas, Angola, and all over, to train them specifically in the oil-related fields. You have to understand, I guess we've been talking about oil in the offshore for, I don't know, 25 or 30 years maybe, but still it's very new to us. We talk about all the drilling that's taking place on Sable or the offshore, a couple hundred wells, it's a very small part of what's taking place globally. Down in the Gulf of Mexico there are more wells than you could probably count; there are more people available than you probably can count, to work.
We set different standards here, as we talked about our regulations of the offshore. People have to be very talented today to work in this industry. People have to be very well educated, and I believe that we have those individuals in the province now. I believe we're moving forward to train or teach more tradespeople, but I also believe that not everyone is going to go out West or down South who is connected in this business because, traditionally, young men and women will move for awhile. It's not the fact that they're just going out to work in the oil fields, or whatever, in Alberta or wherever. Back in the 1930s and 1940s, people moved to pick apples, and they would return. So this is not something that's brand new to us in Nova Scotia, moving to find employment.
The point is that they do return. We want them to return quickly, but really I think it's government's responsibility to set a climate for people to stay, to educate and to stay and to raise their families in Nova Scotia because we have to value the way of life here. Yes, they make a few more bucks by going out, yes, the big oil companies try to encourage them, but we have a way of life here that we want to protect and most people value.
So a long answer to your question, government is aware that we need spaces and teaching and training in this specific field, and I believe that we're moving towards that by supporting the community colleges and universities.
Getting a little bit away from your question, just recently I made an announcement, as a matter of fact in this room, to major funding for universities to do research in the offshore. That means that young men and women who have finished certain degrees will actually stay in Nova Scotia because of this funding, and do research in the offshore. So I think in this department - I only can speak for the Department of Energy, actually - I think we're aware, we're alert, and we understand to promote the businesses that we're promoting that we must have the individuals to work in that industry, and constantly we're trying to promote that.
MR. CORBETT: I appreciate that, and I guess when I'm talking, I'm not talking about people leaving here on the harvest train and coming back in November, the fact is there is an argument out there around if there, indeed, is a trades shortage and a skills shortage. I would say that is a debate worth having. I think it's always done in venues where the right participants aren't always invited. I would say some of the building trades groups in this province would say to you that there is really not a skills and a trades shortage in many of the
[Page 103]
traditional trades, and one of the large ones would be welding and pipefitting, that's involved in this industry, particularly in the platform construction.
So I think that's something that at some point I would wish that - this is probably larger than your department, rather than just make the announcement that we do have a skills shortage or we do have a trades shortage, I would think we should get some people together and really pound that one out to see where they're at. I've heard broad different views on that, but the fact of the matter remains, shortage or no shortage, companies that are the largest players out in the tar sands, in particular, would basically tell you today that they will take everybody who has a red seal, they would take them out of this province and work out there tomorrow, so to speak.
So I guess I ask this question not so much to get into the debate of whether we have a shortage or we don't have a shortage, but to make sure that we talk about fabricating such things as platforms, that we have a decent timeline and if we're short, or if our people are not in the communities, that there's enough lead time around that that we can certainly either (a) educate them, or (b) hopefully, if they're gone, bring them back home. That's the stuff I would like to put on notice here today, Mr. Minister.
Another project that's going on, and it's one that has had a couple of announcements now and it is - I don't know if you could add any more clarity to it - the LNG terminal at Bear Head. There was much excitement around the groundbreaking, that we saw the possibility of this. That project seems to have more questions than answers today. The argument is not so much is there the resource out there to feed that plant if it's constructed, it's more of a give and take between the proponents that the feed is there, but it's not at the price they want. So have you been in contact with the proponents to see the status and the future of that project?
MR. DOOKS: Frank, I think I was appointed to the portfolio two days when the announcement about Bear Head landed on my desk - had a meeting in the morning and, of course, it was announced to the media. I was somewhat disappointed, as a new minister in that portfolio, that the LNG plant was postponed.
[11:45 a.m.]
I have to be very careful, I'm not permitted, or it wouldn't be appropriate for the minister to speak about their business, as you are aware, but in general terms the department keeps involved with the company, Anadarko. They assured me that this was not a done deal, that they were not finished with it. They have sold some other facilities around the globe, or in Canada - no, it wouldn't be in Canada, around the globe, but they have kept this one. They have spent millions of dollars and they actually have let some contracts out and there are some people actually doing work here in metro. I know, because I was speaking to a couple of chaps on the street and they asked me when the project is going to start up again, that they were doing some work - and that's not through the department but through some guys on the street.
[Page 104]
So they spent $100 million, they are credible. I don't think it's a secret around town that the issue is about supply and resource to the plant - I won't go any further about pricing or what that issue is, that's their business. As a minister, I like good news stories, I think you know that. I like good news stories for Nova Scotians; I like royalties brought in through the mechanism for Nova Scotia, so we can enjoy that.
We keep in touch with Anadarko, anything we can do to encourage them to get moving on this, we are there. The minister is open and readily available to speak to them or to go where they are or to have them come to where I am. So $100 million, yes. So there are commitments; they haven't backed away.
MR. CORBETT: Just to change the focus here, as I kind of warned you at the first. Let's talk about some renewables. Can you tell me how many wind farms are up and operating in the province now?
MR. DOOKS: I can tell you off the bat that we are sixth in Canada. We are leading - for a very small province, I think we're doing a great job. Nova Scotia Power has 41 megawatts of installed wind capacity. I don't see how many units - are you looking for units?
MR. CORBETT: Well, I would say with respect to wind farms, how many locations approximately?
MR. DOOKS: Frank, it's different how it's rated. Are you asking how many are up and running and actually producing energy now?
MR. CORBETT: I'm looking at, for instance, in the last six to eight months, there have been four installed between the Morien and Lingan area.
MR. DOOKS: There are seven, I think seven that are actually installed and producing. Now, there are some applications in place, there are some under construction, so we're not going to count those today. We are asking, how many are up and how many are running? There are seven different locations, approximately. Do you want me to name a couple?
MR. CORBETT: No, that's fine. Where I'm going with this is, as someone who lives just about in the shadow of the Lingan generating station, we see a property tax regime that's really different with those guys, we see where the property taxes on these wind farms are about 14 times the rate of that in Ontario. How do you see dealing with that? We almost go with a grant system for the generating stations that Nova Scotia Power has such as Lingan coal generating station, so isn't this a cost problem?
MR. DOOKS: It's a daily issue for owners of windmills. It's a very real issue. The Department of Energy is dealing with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, and with industry, and with municipalities to come up with a plan that's suitable for all. It becomes very complex. You know how Nova Scotia Power pays tax and grants in lieu of taxes. Some
[Page 105]
municipalities think that's fair, some do not believe it's fair. There's that whole utility review forum. I hope you're not going to get on that road today.
What we are doing right now, we have to bring closure to this issue and we have to satisfy a number of people. We have to make sure we gain revenue of them, we have to make sure the municipalities are happy, and we also have to make sure the people in the industry are happy. So we're working with Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations at this particular time; as we speak, we're in negotiations.
I suppose you're going to want a timeline on this. I think by Fall we'll certainly have this figured out.
MR. CORBETT: Mr. Minister, the problem is not so much the timeline, it's the money and how it's done. I kind of led into my question talking about living basically in the shadow of the generating station. The infrastructure that gets harmed by having that there, if time permits we'll talk about the delay of the scrubbers, but the fact that the infrastructure - where I see, the road I live on gets constantly beaten up with large trucks and the traffic, yet they have a different taxation scheme than these people who are doing renewables. It seems to be counterproductive. That's my worry.
If you could give me a timeline and a rate I would be through the moon. Maybe I wouldn't like the timeline, maybe I wouldn't like the rate, but it would give us something more accurate to argue about. That's the problem. It's almost where you give with one hand and take with the other, and that's the frustration around this. I suppose the best I could say about it today is, I wouldn't mind putting you on notice about that, for the purposes of time.
Now, the WPPI program, the Wind Power Production Incentive, the federal program expires next Spring. Has your department discussed the possibility with the feds to extend this program?
MR. DOOKS: Yes, we've been in touch, and have been lobbying the federal government - is a better word - to continue with this program. That's the only answer I have for you. Of course, it's important. Understanding that it's a new federal government, there have been some issues that they're having, that they're dealing with. We're being very aggressive to make sure the incentives will continue. We feel confident and comfortable that they will. It's about some of the programs, EnerGuide, for instance, getting back to that just a little bit, that they've stopped promoting. Some type of plan will come in place, but in anticipation of nothing happening we have gone on to develop plans ourselves.
You have to be very careful - the department is moving ahead with our plans and we certainly wish to have the support of the federal government, and some of the plans that they partner with us are huge dollar amounts and, if we're short that, we have to try to work around that. With that particular program that you're speaking of, we believe that the federal
[Page 106]
government is going to continue with renewables. I can't see how they couldn't, Frank, I mean that's where we are today.
MR. CORBETT: How do you see us meeting our targets - wind energy that's going to be brought online through the Green Energy Framework, are you happy where we're going?
MR. DOOKS: Are we happy? Yes, at this point we're happy. There are certain requirements that are being put in place, certain requirements are being met. Because we're happy, does this mean we're going to stop with incentives and/or with certain targets? No, we're going to encourage Nova Scotia Power who must, by 2013, have 20 per cent of their energy supply to the grid through renewables. At this point I would hope to think - and Howard may know - they're producing approximately 10 per cent; by certainly 2013 we require 10 per cent more. This has come around by series of talks of stakeholders, it's not the government saying you must have this by that, they're on target to have the stuff. Do we want more? Yes. Are we moving towards better incentives, new incentives, to enhance our old programs? Yes, sure.
MR. CORBETT: I guess we all want more . . .
MR. DOOKS: Yes.
MR. CORBETT: . . . when it comes to green renewables. I guess the question is, how aggressive are we being in pursuing that?
MR. DOOKS: As I said, I do believe that we are moving ahead and we have a budget to work with. Would the department like more money to work with? I guess I can answer this question guys - yes, remembering that Nova Scotia is a small province with not a very big population and we have a certain tax base, but our government has been generous, been responsive in giving monies last year and monies this year for certain programs for our Green Plan. We want to discourage gas emissions, we want to reduce - I should say we're on par, yes we want more, we want more money to work with, we want more employees to do it, but being in government a long time, being a taxpayer, being a family man, you know that there has to be guidelines, and as long as we're meeting certain targets I think we're doing our job.
Education is so very important when we talk about energy and the Green Plan, whichever term you may want to put on it. It comes from the very smallest part of your life to the very large producers of energy. Simply by turning your light off when you leave the washroom in the morning - 960,000 individuals do that in the province - that's a big saving, and simply shutting your computer screen off at night saves. These are targets that we're encouraging. The Department of Energy has two different sides of it: we're trying to encourage the production of the usage of certain fossil fuels - you know that - but, on the other hand, the other side of the department is very aware in providing education and incentives for people to use energy efficiently.
[Page 107]
What we're trying to do is that we have to have energy to live. I mean, every day we have to have energy - industry would not be able to move without energy, and from industry comes a whole lot of good things, but there's a shift here in saying how can we reduce the cost, how can we be more efficient, how can we be less dependable on fossil fuels, how can we promote renewable energy sources? Isn't it the move of society now, almost through osmosis, or because of the education that's being put forward for people to become more aware of saving energy? This is coming through programs in our schools, coming from programs in our communities, and coming from certain programs from in the department, so on and so forth.
MR. CORBETT: When you talk about your department as being a promoter from both sides of the equation, I think what most Nova Scotians are coming to, the idea of conservation is always - it's something that, I think, when we deal exclusively with fossil fuels, we know there's a limited resource there and the harm it does to our overall environment.
Talk about Smart Energy Choices, that's a $10 million line item. The cancellation of the energy-wide federal program, I think it must be $6 million or so left in the balance, what do you see doing with that, promoting interest-free loans?
MR. DOOKS: First of all, as I said in my opening comments, to not to have the support of the government at this particular time, I'm still hoping, if that's an appropriate term, that by Fall they will come with a program to assist this. Smart Energy Choices, it's an umbrella in which part of the government EnerGuide was a part of that, underneath that. Also, there's an education proponent to that, as well. So there's sort of this Smart Energy Choices, and it breaks all down in different ways, to the fact of some of the money we've given universities for research comes from that dollar figure.
[12:00 noon]
We have had many discussions on the department, and I always, I guess, speak to timelines, as much as I don't share some of them with you. The cancellation of the feds on the EnerGuide was two days, I think, before the provincial election, or a day, it was right there within the timing of that. So I can remember that quite clearly, on the doorsteps, being the Minister of Energy, you know - we put in applications, where are you going? Energy today, in at least the area I campaigned, was up front as much as some other issues that I won't speak of here today.
So what we're doing, that $10 million figure, we're putting our departmental provincial EnerGuide program in place. It's not finalized yet, but we know that 25 per cent of Nova Scotians are planning energy-efficient upgrades over the next 12 months. So people are sitting in their homes and saying, well, how can I cut down on my light bill? How can I cut down on my fuel bill? Well, this program from the feds is not there anymore, what are we going to do? So we're going to try to put a program in place.
[Page 108]
Our funding in that program was up to $1,000 in partnerships with the feds. Now, that federal portion is not there. I guess the question is, how are we going to replace that federal portion if it doesn't come?
So these are things that we're working on. I can tell you that whenever it is put together, Frank, as a critic, of course I'll inform you. I had made that comment to you. So under Smart Energy Choices, it's still the belief of the department that this money is worth it, that it's productive money well spent on education and certain other programs that make homes more efficient and more adaptable to the will of society today.
MR. CORBETT: This is a vision not just with your department, but your government often talks about - and the type of housing stock that would benefit most from these programs are obviously the older homes, and it's part of keeping seniors in their own homes so, you know, you don't have to stretch the bow that long to realize that there's a serious connection there. I'm a firm believer in that this has a real circular economic effect and it does a lot of good, it keeps seniors in their own homes. It allows those homes to be more energy efficient, less reliant, less dependent on fossil fuels, plus it allows our trade sectors, in particular small job contractors, to be employed. I think that should be an area that's looked at in a very serious light because it does have a circle effect in a lot of areas in which your government has talked about in its Throne Speech, not just dependent from your department.
MR. DOOKS: Yes.
MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, how much time left?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is 12:01 p.m.
MR. CORBETT: It's 12:01 p.m., and I have how much time left?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Until 12:12 p.m.
MR. CORBETT: I want to talk to you about one of my favourite neighbours and that's the Lingan generating station. There was much fanfare last year when they announced that they would be building precipitators at the station and it was similar to your statement just a few moments ago, Mr. Minister, the announcement that they would be delaying the installation of those precipitators happened late, I believe, in the last election campaign. It's primarily I think, in discussions with Nova Scotia Power that there was a disagreement by some about the technology. There was a disagreement by some of the larger users about the overall cost and, therefore, the benefit and who would be absorbing those costs.
I guess the question I want to ask you today is, how involved is your department with making sure that these precipitators are installed, that they're done in a timely fashion, because I'm going to tell you, it's something that, you know, besides the road infrastructure that I think has always been a problem with the amount of traffic especially as it relates to
[Page 109]
heavy equipment in and out of the Lingan generating station, the large problem with the lack of those precipitators is the fly ash and so on coming out of those stacks. As much as the neighbours want to be good neighbours, it's really frustrating when this happens, so can you bring us up to speed in your discussions with Nova Scotia Power and where you sit now with your . . .
MR. DOOKS: Yes. I guess I'm going to try to be very clear on this. I know you're very aware of what's going on. The department was in discussions. It's our responsibility to make sure that the reductions in emissions are completed by 2010, or something like that - and is it our business to dictate the method which they use to do that? I don't think it is. There are stakeholders involved here. They have a warrant, so to speak, to reduce the emissions by 2010.
I think the mechanisms they use are scrubbers. I think they cost $170 million, something like that - don't quote these figures because these are just some numbers. That's a lot of money. It's very necessary they reduce their emissions and they have to do it by 2010. Nova Scotia Power, I believe, is with the Utility and Review Board and that board has been set up, an independent board, to determine the argument. The bottom line, I guess what you're asking is, what is our position? We believe by 2010 they should reduce their emissions as stakeholders should and that the Utility and Review Board has to do their job, and we encourage them to do their job and do it in a timely fashion.
As you know, the Utility and Review Board, we can't dictate on this issue, wind power, or any of the other issues - independent boards, set up by government that have certain timelines. The Utility and Review Board may seem to move slowly sometimes, and we sometimes criticize it, but the reason why, there are certain mechanisms put in place that they hear from certain people that they are able to gather all information to make an informed decision.
So I guess the answer is that it's important to us. We keep abreast of it, we follow the progress; 2010 is still almost four years away.
MR. CORBETT: I guess my worry about that, Mr. Minister, is that Nova Scotia Power, it's not so much that it's in the process over at the Utility and Review Board, the fact that Nova Scotia Power has basically called a time out and said look, we have - what we want to do now is go back to the drawing board and we want to try to resolve these issues before they are in front of the board, rather than argue with the opponents at the board level.
I guess my question to you is, if that's moving forward - are they coming to your department and seeking if not guidance, at least some direction of where to go with this?
I appreciate that you - once it moves into the realm of URB, that kind of leaves everybody's ballpark, as it should. I want to know if Nova Scotia Power came back to you and
[Page 110]
said look, we're kind of on this time out and here's what we're looking at and here's now going to be our timeline.
MR. DOOKS: Have I had a personal discussion with Nova Scotia Power on the advancement of this, no, I have not. Departmental people, of course, are involved in this. I have had discussions with the department on this - $170 million, should I be quoting that figure? I mean that's a lot of money, and I'm just trying to recall what the cost of it is.
Now who's going to pay the $170 million? Of course the consumer will pay, or the shareholder, or however you want - ultimately, Nova Scotians will pay for this remodelling. The stakeholders, I believe, are the ones who really want to move slowly to make sure that everything is in place and on line. I don't think in this one it's Nova Scotia Power that's moving slowly, I think they need to address it, I think it's the whole mechanism that's in place.
Whe