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HALIFAX, FRIDAY, MAY 7, 2004
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
9:23 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Mark Parent
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
The honourable member for Halifax Needham.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Good morning. Yesterday when we were having discussions, we were still focused on the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and I don't see Ms. Neumann here which is okay. I did have a couple of questions regarding the Public Service Commission. In the past few years when we've had an opportunity to talk about the Public Service, specifically the Civil Service I guess within the Public Service, I've always been very interested in getting information around the implementation of the affirmative action policy of government.
Madam Minister, you will be aware that the Province of Nova Scotia has had an affirmative action policy since, I believe, 1975. Three years ago in a document from the Public Service Commission there was a stated objective to have each government department and agency, board and commission develop a three-year plan to implement the affirmative action policy of government and as I understand, based on a presentation of the commission in front of the Human Resources Committee, very few, if any, departments have complied with the development of a formal plan. As I understand it, there are some informal attempts to address those objectives, but the absolute letter of the strategic directions for the commission have, in fact, not been carried out. So I want to discuss this with you and I want to ask you, first of all, what are you going to do about that situation and when will we see some formal written conforming to a three-year plan of action in the various departments and the ABCs to actually implement affirmative action which has been in this province since 1975?
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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Human Resources.
HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: What I can tell you, you are correct that this has not been accomplished in the past, but I can tell you that as part of my mandate it will be completed in 2004-05. We are undergoing consultation now with the various departments. The workforce survey is ongoing and new employees are asked to complete the survey upon appointment and by doing this they self-identify and it's so much easier to categorize so we do have the numbers that we are looking for to see where we stand within government now. A review of the affirmative action practices is underway and, again, that will be completed and the departments will have that information back to the Public Service Commission in 2004-05. So that review will be carried out.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Can the minister tell us why it hasn't happened? What was it that prevented this from happening in the time frame that it was supposed to happen in?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: With the restructuring within the Public Service Commission, resources seemed to be a problem at that point in time to focus directly on this. It is a priority of this government to move this forward and it will be carried out in 2004-05 and staff have been very busy with moving different parts of the affirmative action policy forward.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I know that based on the context that I often have with people in my constituency and from outside my constituency that there is a fair degree of frustration I would say, you know, in the disability community, in the African-Nova Scotian community and other designated groups under the Affirmative Action Program, that government hasn't placed a high enough priority on the implementation of affirmative action and this is, I think, reflected in what the minister has just had to say about the lack of resources and the focus being elsewhere. I think it's quite disheartening to think that we've had affirmative action policies for so long yet the concrete implementation and the plan from that report in 2000 in the various departments actually hasn't come to be.
So, I guess I'm trying to express some of the frustration that I encounter from the public who frequently call me, people who have been submitting applications for jobs in the Civil Service, but also people who are looking for services from government and they don't see themselves reflected in the various departments they're dealing with. I think that this is really a very serious problem and it's one that does deserve the utmost attention and some priority and the allocation of whatever resources are required. I know that if there's anything that the minister can accomplish in her tenure in this position to move that forward, it would be I think a significant accomplishment, given how long it has been that we're waiting for concrete action.
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[9:30 a.m.]
I want to ask the minister about young people getting into the Public Service. When the Public Service Commission was in front of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, if my memory serves me correctly, the graph, the chart that we were shown indicated that probably less than 5 per cent of the current employees of government are under the age of 29. This is a staggering situation in terms of the implications I think for young people coming up through the ranks, getting entry level opportunities, and what this means for the future of public services.
I want to tell the minister that as MLAs, we get to hire one person to run our constituency office and more than three years ago, I guess probably close to five years ago, the person who I had initially as my constituency assistant went to work in Alexa McDonough's office and I hired a young man who was in his last year of political science at Dalhousie. He worked in my office for three years. He came in with very little work experience, but an enormous capacity to grow. I mean his abilities were obvious right at the outset although his experience was pretty limited. At the end of three years in my office he applied to Columbia University in the Master's Program in Public Administration and he's going to graduate in two weeks' time. He's now in the position of looking for employment and he wants public sector employment obviously. He really loves the kinds of opportunities and the whole idea of government providing services and being a force for positive activities in the lives of citizens.
However, it's very doubtful that there will be any opportunities for this young man, even in our own province, which concerns me quite a bit to lose someone of this calibre. He also happens to be from the African Nova Scotian community as well. He has many talents, but yet we don't seem to have the political will to create the opportunities to keep our young people, like this young man, here in our province. Sadly, he will end up working perhaps in some place like Washington, or possibly some other part of the United States, or maybe even, you know, if he can get back to Canada, he certainly would like to do that.
Now, I know that the province has this very limited program in the Summer months and sort of an internship kind of program for a very small number of young people, but I want to talk to you about the plan to expand this, the plan to look at some year-round internships inside the Public Service. Where is the plan to offer these opportunities to the young graduates from our own province who have so much to offer? If we don't do that, we're going to lose these young people.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: One of the programs that we do have within the Public Service is the Post Secondary Internship Program and this is to allow our young people to come into the Public Service and to experience the work environment there. It has been a one-year program in the past. This is a program that started back in 1998. It's something that
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we are working towards making into a two-year program so they can get a wider perspective of what goes on within government.
Now, if we look at the demographics within government right now and realize that the average age inside is 45 and management is 47, the opportunities that are going to be available in the near future are far-reaching. There will be a large number, more than 2,000 civil servants will be eligible for retirement in the next five years and those will open the doors for these young people to come in. The baby boomers are moving through the system and over the course of the term and with the hiring freezes that were on in the 1990s, it definitely is reflective of the number of individuals that we have in that 30 and under age category, but our goal is to definitely increase the number of young people and that's, again, one of the things that I hope to be able to accomplish.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Well, we'll be holding the minister to that commitment, you can rest assured, because this is something that we all need to take some responsibility for, I guess. I know that my time is probably getting close to the end and at least one of my colleagues has a question. So I'm going to turn the remainder over to them.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have seven minutes left.
The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Minister, I really just have one particular focus I wonder if we could pursue and it has to do particularly with gender parity within the Public Service. I thought I understood you to say that some revisions had been done to attempt to regularize pay scales and the position of people in the pay scales, but what I'm wondering about is the basis on which that occurred and it seems to me that it's no more than a starting point to find that men and women ought to receive equal pay for the same job. What I want to know is whether in implementing gender parity you also operate on a principle of equal pay for work of equal value?
Just to explain what I mean, it seems very clear that if a position, say that of an engineer, was being filled by a male in one department and a female in another department and they were both of equal seniority and equal professional qualifications, then of course they should be expected to be paid the same amount. What I'm wondering though is whether your examination of gender parity and pay has gone beyond that and I'm wondering whether you have looked at comparing job classifications that are often traditionally predominantly filled by females compared with those that are often traditionally predominantly filled by males and tried to weigh up whether the general pay scales for jobs that might be seen to be of equal value, are also being paid in the same way. That's what I meant by equal pay for work of equal value. Have you pursued that principle and, if so, can you tell us how? Can you give us some details?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Public Service Commission did meet the legislation back in the 1990s, that was applicable to the pay equity. We're not aware of any particular problems within that now. Two of the projects that are currently underway are the bargaining unit classification review and also the MCP review. In that, one of the parameters around that is the concept of equal pay for work of equal value.
Traditionally, if you look at the makeup of government right now and you look at the percentage of females and the percentage of males in different categories, when you look at the clerical profession, they're still 93 per cent female and 7 per cent male, which we still have. Now, in the MCP level, which is a number of 1,100 individuals, 44 per cent of those individuals are female and 56 per cent male, so it does seem in the professional field 51 per cent are female, 49 per cent male.
MR. EPSTEIN: I'm aware of the fact that some different categories are, of course, dominated by particular genders. That's, indeed, what prompted the question. Madam Minister, you're telling us that you have now built into your classification review the underlying idea of equal pay for work of equal value?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we have.
MR. EPSTEIN: That applies to all the classifications? That is, you're going to try to compare all classifications to each other?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, that was part of the review that was carried out. It's not quite complete yet.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. Fine. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. We'll now move to the Liberal caucus and it is 9:43 a.m.
The honourable member for Preston.
MR. KEITH COLWELL: I have a couple of questions. In the total workforce in the province, how many people are Black?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There are 156.
MR. COLWELL: What percentage is that of the total workforce?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It's 2.2 per cent. The policy objective is for the Civil Service to be reflective of the Nova Scotia community, and the Nova Scotia Black community is 1.8 per cent of the total population.
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MR. COLWELL: How many of those 156 employees are in senior management positions?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those were numbers that were asked for yesterday and those were numbers I said I would bring back. We do not have those before us today.
MR. COLWELL: Okay. How many are men and how many are women?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That's a statistic that we could request, but we don't have it broken down that way.
MR. COLWELL: Okay, could you possibly get that for me, if you don't mind.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, we can.
MR. COLWELL: The Canadian Federation of Independent Business did a wage watch recently and in that research found that federal government employees enjoy a 15.1 per cent wage premium over private sector. When you put in the non-wage benefits it's actually 23.3 per cent, that's a federal issue. The provincial one is quite similar at 9.1 wage per cent premium over the private sector in the exact same positions, and 14.8 per cent with non-wage benefits are included.
When you look at those numbers, what negative effect do you think that has on the economy when you have the Civil Service making more money than the private industry that actually generates the taxes to operate the province?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm not aware, to start with, of the report that you're mentioning, I haven't seen those statistics. The Public Service Commission is very competitive in some positions, but we're also quite a bit behind in a lot of the other positions that we did mention yesterday.
MR. COLWELL: Okay, could you give us a list of those that you're behind or above on? If you're behind on some of them, there must be some way out of line.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those comparisons we can get for you, based on statistics that you do have there, but we don't have those before us right now. We do know within the market, we are competitive in some positions, but we do lag behind in some others.
MR. COLWELL: I'm really interested to see it because when you look at the stats of the different wages at the different levels, there must be some positions that are way underpaid and some that are way overpaid. With government employees enjoying that much of an advantage in wages, which I don't argue with, there has to be some people who are drastically underpaid and some that are probably overpaid compared to private industry.
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: If you could volunteer a copy of that report, it definitely would help in our analysis as we get those figures for you.
MR. COLWELL: I will give it to you at the end if that's all right?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be fine, thank you.
MR. COLWELL: There's actually some very good information. I'm sure you will find it very useful.
I'll let my colleague ask a few questions now.
[9:45 a.m.]
MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Good morning, Madam Minister. Number one, I'd like to go on record as saying that I'm a very strong advocate of women's rights. I see, according to the figures, that the women's centres are funded to the tune of $100,000 each per year?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, each women's centre across the province receives $100,000 a year.
MR. COLWELL: My problem with that is that there's been no increase for five years. Something as important as women's centres, and most of the people, all of the people who work in those centres, can stretch the money like it's made out of elastic. They can make dollars go further than anyone else, yet for five years there has been no increase. There's no flexibility in the budget system for them and yet, I'm referring to yesterday in the House, you defended giving the bonuses to people in government who did a real good job and what I'm wondering is, what about these centres, why aren't they given an increase?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The $100,000 that has been provided has been stable funding over the last five years. Yes, if resources were available, I definitely agree that there probably would be room for more funding in these areas. There are a lot of programs that are funded by the Department of Community Services that could definitely use more money. The funding that is provided for this individual group, they have been able to meet the demands of the market out there and, hopefully, we'll be able to continue to do that, but I do realize that if there was more money available that, yes, there should be more money going into this area.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Madam Minister, I disagree in that over a five-year period a job rate with the same amount of funding brings me to a saying that I've heard on numerous occasions. In this instance it appears to be that the reward for the winning horse
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is more work, five years with the same funding, and it has always seemed that this is a group, and it reminds me that it's an area of the department that really doesn't have the clout or receive the clout or respect for consideration that it deserves. Board workers do what they can with what they have, but what I'm wondering is, are there any specific projects that have come out of the Status of Women that they can say because of the Status of Women we were able to do this and this and this?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, yesterday one of the comments that we made was that the Status of Women has the right to publish reports. They've published a number of publications. One recently was the report on common-law relationships. There have also been different programs and one specific program that we are going to follow through on this year is a women's campaign school. This is something that I hope to have up and running by Fall, and Making Changes: A Book for Women in Abusive Relationships was also provided - 15,000 copies were provided. We do work co-operatively with the libraries when we're releasing this information and we've actually recently taken a stand on the maternity leave benefits and different things and it's definitely government's avenue to get women's issues to the forefront and the Status of Women do a very good job of doing the research and bringing that information to me as Minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Let me take an adversarial approach. If I'm an abuser - I will use myself as an example so nobody can point any fingers at anybody else - and there are 15,000 copies of a brochure that I don't care about because women produced it, what has anybody put in actual law or clout that if I am convicted or I'm a known abuser, or convicted of abusing, what's the penalty there for me other than just give me a brochure to read?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: One thing that this government did put forward was the Domestic Violence Intervention Act and also the pro-arrest/pro-prosecution policy was put forward, too, and that was a direct result of input from the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Could the minister explain the pro-arrest policy to me, just give me some information on it? Explain it to me in the terms that I'm the abuser and because of this pro-arrest policy, what would I face, what penalties would I face because of doing what I've done?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, if you are an abuser and you do physically hurt someone, you are going to be arrested and prosecuted. It's as simple as that.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: I see that what has come forward is an election program for women. Has that come from the Status of Women?
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MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Status of Women held a series of workshops across the province to get women who were interested in becoming members of ABCs, municipal-provincial-federal politics, to come out and take part in these workshops. There was one held in February here in Halifax with 50, I believe, in attendance and we had to actually close the doors. There were quite a few individuals on a waiting list. The demand for this type of program is significant.
I recently had the opportunity to attend a women's campaign school in Vancouver in which we took part in a variety of workshops and functions and my goal in going to that workshop was to see how they were run because my intent was to come back to Nova Scotia and be able to set up such a workshop or school here. We are in the process of partnering with organizations and facilities now and getting people onside to do this so that we can initiate a campaign school and, hopefully, encourage more women.
The Nova Scotia Legislature has the third lowest amount of female representation in the country and third only to Nunavut and the Northwest Territories. So the 12 per cent that is represented in the House here is quite startling to say the least. So we are going to encourage people out. I think that we need to work with constituency associations and try to see to it that bylaws are put in place in those constituencies so that they allow and they seek out females to run for political office because a lot of times that isn't happening across the province now.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Could I ask the minister where this workshop was held - locally in metro here or where in the province was the workshop held?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There was a workshop held in Port Hawkesbury, Sydney, New Glasgow, Amherst, Halifax and Yarmouth.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: And the funding for those workshops was provided by?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Advisory Council on the Status of Women.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: So that came out of their $100,000?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, it did, or not the $100,000 budget, the Status of Women has a $756,000 budget and 7.8 full-time equivalent employees.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: So the funding was additional funding given to them for this new venture or it just came out of their existing budget?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That came out of the regular budget.
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MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Is there any initiative through the Status of Women to encourage immigration, females who are maybe not qualified professionals, but just ladies with families or children, or just people who would like to immigrate?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Status of Women did take part in the multiculturalism strategy. We are also partnering with Saint Mary's University researchers to see what can be done to facilitate immigrant women into Canada.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: So that is ongoing?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is ongoing and there are members of the Status of Women who participate within those two functions.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: How long has that been in place?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The multiculturalism strategy is a partnership with the Department of Tourism and has been underway since January. The partnership with the SMU researchers has been ongoing now for the last two years and the funding became available this Winter and will proceed onward.
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Are there any statistics, it doesn't have to be exact, but is there a rough number of those who have immigrated because of the program? Do you have any results?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There is statistical information that will be available and there will be a handbook comprised and put out in June with this information in it. So that will be available.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Okay. In Cape Breton, what women's centres are funded through the Status of Women?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Status of Women do not fund any women's centres or transition houses. They're all funded through the Department of Community Services, but I can tell you which ones, one in Sydney and one in Port Hawkesbury.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: They're funded through Community Services. What I'm wondering, my riding in particular, which is not unlike other rural ridings in Nova Scotia, there's a large geographic area and what I'm thinking of is North of Smokey in Cape Breton. If you have a situation, the transition house is in Sydney. It could be Wintertime. The roads are not the best at the best of times, but given bad weather in the Winter, and a mother and
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children are in need of assistance - I know there's protection involved at the transition house - what does that family do when they're three and a half hours away from that transition house?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, I'd like to start by the Cape Breton Interagency on Family Violence and their partners are developing a plan to deal with the issue of violence and crime, but having said that, there is a crisis line that women can call and they also can arrange transportation by calling the police, to the transition home in the area. I realize that is quite a distance, but that is made available to them by making a phone call.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: I was going to mention safe houses, but apparently the province has moved away from safe houses?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That concept has not come up from the transition houses group, to have the safe houses.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Didn't we have safe houses at one time in rural areas, or other areas?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: There were some on the Eastern Shore, some 10 years ago. They were never provincially located across the province. There is also the issue of a safe house with the individual that they're staying with and the security that they would have provided to them. So there are a lot of issues around the whole concept.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: If a mother and family in need pick up the phone and call the RCMP - I'm just referring to North of Smokey because that's one of the areas that I cover - and there's other criminal activity going on that the RCMP are involved with, is there any law or what is the status of that phone call? Is it mandatory that the police take that mother and children to the safe house over and above going to arrest some guy for walking down the road drunk or something?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It definitely would depend on the situation of the nature of the call, but the pro-arrest program would come into play, the policy that's there for that. Also there is the Domestic Violence Intervention Act, that the RCMP - I don't know if they have town police in that area - would have the option of removing the violator from that home, and like I said, depending on the situation, they would have the option, yes, to take that individual to a transition house, or issue an emergency protection order against.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: It always appears that the mother and the children are the ones who have to leave and the abuser seems to be the one who's allowed to stay there. Why not haul him out and put him in jail?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Emergency Services Protection Act does just that. It allows the woman to stay in the home and the man to has to leave.
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MR. GERALD SAMPSON: The funding for transition houses. How much are transition houses funded? Do they have a blanket coverage, like we were talking about the $100,000, or are they individually funded depending on where they are?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I interrupt for just a moment with the member's indulgence? We just want to welcome guests to our Red Chamber. We have guests from the metro region immigrant language schools. Representing - I think it's quite impressive, the countries represented - Taiwan, China, Indonesia, France, Jordan, Colombia, Iran, Vietnam, Belarus, Pakistan and Hong Kong. Welcome to you all. We're in the middle of estimates and they're going through the budget for the Status of Women. I think three hours on it, which is the first I understand on the budget for the Status of Women, which is a good move, I guess. Welcome to all of you and we'll continue on, sorry to interrupt.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: I too, would like to welcome the group here. It's very nice to see.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Department of Community Services would be the funder for the transition houses and it's based on a formula that they use and it's a per diem rate. Now it would depend on the individual transition house. It's not a blanket amount across the province. The number of beds come into play that each house would have and that ranges from Bryony House, with having 24 beds, down to Leeside House in Port Hawkesbury, with nine beds and Autumn House in Amherst with nine beds. The rest being somewhere in between. There are nine transition houses across the province.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Could you just tell me how many beds are in the one in Sydney?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Cape Breton Transition House has 20 beds. They have nine full-time people, four part-time and three relief.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: That's the staff?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: So there's 12 staff in all. What's the amount of funding for that individual transition house?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I do not have those figures before me, but the Department of Community Services could provide that for you. I do have some, but I don't have that one.
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MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Judging by the formula that you're using that so many beds and whatnot, each individual transition house would have a separate amount of funding, has there been any increase in that funding in the past number of years or has it been basically static, the same as the $100,000 for the others?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That question would have to be referred to the Department of Community Services. I'm not aware of that answer whatsoever, but they could get those details for you.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Programs in transition houses, are there any programs in transition houses or statistics that you can tell me of successes of a family that has gone to the transition house, what happens when they're there? When they're there, what do they do or is there any training, is there any input other than keeping them safe that when they have to leave that situation, they're better prepared to go back into the situation that they've left?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Transition houses across the province do several levels of counselling. They provide child care. They work to transition the individual either to go back to their home or to go back into the work environment, to make sure that they have some type of safe environment to go to, that they have alternative plans put in place. There are a lot that I have talked to over the course who have been counselled into seeking educational degrees and programs so that they can further their studies to go out into the workforce as transitions put into place for them to do this. Counselling is the major part of what would go on within, as well as the definite safe protection that the transition house does provide.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: So the focus would be on the mother and the counselling of the victim, the mother?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: In the transition house, yes, and the children.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Because that's what I was coming to, the children are probably as much or more affected than the mother, seeing the mother being distraught and abused, and then as a child feeling helpless, I was just wondering is there any focus on the children because those children could grow up to be the direct opposite of what they want to be or being exposed to that is bound to have a negative impact on those children.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Every transition home has an individual on staff who deals with the children and to be able to supply that support staff to the individuals who are there at that time, but there definitely is counselling and support staff for the children.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: That's about it for me. I will turn the time back over to my colleague here. Thank you for your answers.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton West.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Through you, Mr. Chairman, just to follow up on what my colleague was asking, one of the commitments in the Tory blue book, Strong Leadership . . . . a clear course - I believe the minister may be a little bit familiar with it, it predates her entry into the House of Assembly here. However, I think she'll be familiar with this particular commitment - "Establish a Registry of Sex Offenders that will include the names and locations of all convicted sex offenders, as well as those who have been found criminally insane. This information will be shared with police authorities to be made public;"
Now, I realize to a certain extent, that's in measure a Department of Justice issue, but what specific action has the minister and her department taken, you know, as her responsibility for the Status of Women, to ensure that that initiative has been enacted? First of all, has it been enacted and, number two, what action has she taken to support it?
[10:15 a.m.]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The Status of Women is generally supportive of the initiatives going forward, but this is something that is definitely Department of Justice and I'm not sure what the status of this is at the current time.
MR. MACKINNON: Has the minister made any representation to the Department of Justice on this issue?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, I have not.
MR. MACKINNON: Why not?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It has not been brought forward to me at this point in time.
MR. MACKINNON: Has it not been an issue of concern by the Status of Women body?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The issue that did come forward to me from the Status of Women was the rights of the victims and the offenders to be able to definitely look at that to make sure that there are procedures in place to see that the balance is there.
MR. MACKINNON: But have they not made any submission to yourself or to your department asking that this particular commitment be enacted?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No.
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MR. MACKINNON: I'm a little surprised at that to be honest. If I could switch just momentarily, I would like to go over to the issue of the Public Service Commission on salaries and this is the Public Service Commission, not the Public Service, so we'll be speaking specifically of your department. We'll go to Page 116, I guess. The very first one is Effie Anderson. Her salary is identified as $58,890.30. The previous year it was $53,885.30. That's approximately a 10 per cent pay increase. What's the reason for that?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again I will give you the same response, I definitely will have to go back and look at the individuals to see if that's how they progressed through their pay scale, if they've been moved from one job classification to another, and see where that is.
MR. MACKINNON: Is Ms. Anderson part of a collective agreement or is she in management?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: She would be an MCP.
MR. MACKINNON: Okay, then perhaps what I'll do is I'll just skip through a number that I would like to bring to the minister's attention and she can package them.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes. Maybe something that I should bring to your attention before you go any further, no one in the Public Service Commission would be in the bargaining unit and part of the collective agreement. These would all be MCP level employees.
MR. MACKINNON: At the risk of sounding a little naive, could you clarify in layman's terms the difference; MCP, what does that acronym stand for?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What the MCP does stand for is the Management Compensation Plan and it does include line managers and non-bargaining unit support staff.
MR. MACKINNON: Do you have any detail on any of these employees like how long they've been in service? Do you have any of that detail with you, is that all back in the archives?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We would have to go into the system and get that information and we could provide that to you.
MR. MACKINNON: Okay, in that case what I'll do is, there are a number that I've highlighted and we'll just package them and I'll ask a series of questions on them as a package and you can give an undertaking as to whether you can provide the information or not. Is that okay?
[Page 558]
The first one is Ms. Anderson. The second one is Barbara Ellen Baldwin, her salary increased from $53,133.55 up to $59,003.13. The next one is, Shelagh Campbell, her salary went from $43,647.27 up to $79,702.60. Heather Chandler, her salary went from $48,449.75 up to $54,632.22. The next one that caught my attention was Jason C. Clow, from $49,617.14 up to $54,654.87. Isabel Hache, $52,021.04 up to $58,270.90. Then Marlane Hiltz, or Molly Hiltz, went from $35,641.10 up to $39,075.84 and then Sheila M. Landry went from $67,584.54 up to $73,328.36. Kim L. MacDonald went from $25,057.48 up to $31,617.70 in one year. Anna McCurdy went from $35,641.10 up to $39,075.84. Margaret Mary Melanson went from $54,870.65 up to $60,969.93 and Sandra Parker went from $35,641.10 up to $39,858.96. Lisa Rafuse went from $26,083.18 to $30,234.68. The remaining two, Darlene A. Smith-Spears went from $44,822.62 up to $51,322.28 and Enid Brenda Stout, $58,234.77 up to $63,464.28.
All those seem to be somewhere in the vicinity of the 10 per cent raise give or take, which generally I don't think the salary increase is comparable with the collective agreements. What does that go up, 2 per cent, 3 per cent a year? For the sake of discussion, 2 per cent. It's five times that amount. That's why it stuck out. It wasn't to pick on these particular people. I don't know these people from any other names, it's just that they stick out as quite a few of those in there and I've skipped over some others as well. I guess my question is, number one, why that significant increase in pay in one year? Number two, how long have each of these employees been in the employ of the province? Because if they are relatively new and it doesn't appear that some of them are, I could understand them working up to the max of their pay scale or that job description that's been referred to.
Can the minister confirm, without mentioning names at this point, because we've debated that, how many individuals within the Public Service Commission have received this bonus or award, or whatever term you want to use, performance-based achievement?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yesterday I did agree to undertake providing that information to the member by department. The individuals again, I can tell you that there's 1,100 in the MCP category and I believe 731 was the number that did receive pay for performance.
MR. MACKINNON: Sure, I mean we don't have a considerably large number of employees here. Is there anybody in the department there who has any knowledge as to how many?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, that information could be provided to you, they don't have that available with them at this time.
MR. MACKINNON: Has there been anybody, has there been at least one that received that?
[Page 559]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We could get that information for you.
MR. MACKINNON: So the minister can't indicate whether anyone has received a bonus or not, out of her department?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Given the calibre of people within the Public Service Commission, I believe you probably will see that there are individuals there, but again that information will be provided to you.
MR. MACKINNON: Is the minister saying that she doesn't know at this point if anyone in her department has received a service award, like this bonus?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That is correct.
MR. MACKINNON: That's really surprising, to be honest. The next issue, which has been debated a bit, is with regard to the number of young Nova Scotians in the employ of the province and I don't want to go back over that because it's been raised by a number of members, including myself, except in terms of futuristic issues.
[10:30 a.m.]
I understand that if a job becomes available and is then posted on the Web site or through some other public notice, people will apply. The powers that be, either within this department or other departments, make a decision, well, we're only going to interview so many. Let's say there are approximately 100 who apply, and they make a policy decision to pick, out of that group, the best 12 or the 12 who we think are the best candidates to do an interview with. That's fine. What effort is the minister's department making to ensure that as many persons under the age of 30 as possible are grouped into that 12?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: When someone fills out their job application and they qualify to come in for the interview, or even before that point in time, we do not know the age of the individual applying for the job. What we are doing is encouraging people to come into the Public Service and to government departments with our Career Starts program, but the age of the individual when they file their form is not provided. That may be an area that we need to go to, but age is not something that is relevant on the forms that they are filling out when they're filing on-line or their applications.
MR. MACKINNON: Generally they put their date of birth, don't they? Oh, that's all done away with. At one time it was part of the package.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They can put their date of birth on there if they choose to do so, but most do not - on the resumé.
[Page 560]
MR. MACKINNON: Perhaps this is an opportunity to change the policy a bit, so as to try to achieve that. Even with the doubling of this youth apprentice program that has been referred to, not only in the blue book but in the government's commitments to double the number of youth being hired, you're still only going to less than 5 per cent - 3 per cent. At that rate, we are going to have a human resource deficit, within the next five to seven years, of considerable measure. I would think it's an opportunity for the minister and her government to try to address that now.
What I'm hearing from many young Nova Scotians is that it's almost not even worthwhile bothering to put an application in, because they don't even hear back. Many of these individuals are university graduates with tremendous skills, computer literacy skills, their academic and vocational backgrounds, training and so on. They're just not given an opportunity to even get an interview. I would ask, perhaps, if the minister would give an undertaking to review this policy, and make an effort to insert that criteria there, not to make it an absolute because, obviously, you have to have a balance of experience and looking into the future as well. You're not going to get all experience with youth, but there's a tremendous amount of lost potential there.
If the minister were to do that, even a certain percentage of the number of ones who are called for the interview process, whether it be only one-third or whatever, I think it would be a step forward from what's being done now. Maybe the minister can indicate that perhaps there are efforts to deal with that. I would like to hear her thoughts on that.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Some of the comments that you have put forward are very good comments. One of the mandates of this government will be to increase that number from the 3.4 per cent that we currently stand at for the under-30 age group, and it will be something that I will be working diligently on, to see to it that we can increase those numbers over the next couple of years. Something that we also have to be careful of within government, and when we say that we would like to change the forms to get people's age, we have to look at the discrimination factor, too.
We cannot discriminate against anyone based on age. We definitely can encourage individuals to put their age on there, and this is part of the self-identifying process with the affirmative action policy and so on that we're looking into. Again, individuals have to be willing to provide us with that information so that we do realize, on the forms, but we cannot discriminate on age alone.
Part of the Career Starts program, again, is moving into a two-year program, which will allow individuals to have two years of experience within the Public Service and hopefully within that time frame we would be able to, if they chose to stay here, place them within the system. We're also going out to universities and to high schools, their career days, trying to encourage and promote the Public Service as a place where you would want to come to work and that does hold a future for young people in today's environment.
[Page 561]
MR. MACKINNON: Perhaps, if I may make a suggestion, if it were inserted on the application process, an optional section in there, that if they wished to put their date of birth or at least their age, those types of factors in there, because it's an opportunity, as well, to address a lot of the anomalies, the imbalance on the gender issue. In time you would like to get a fair balance between female and male management at the high-end level. There seems to be a deficiency there.
It's futuristic and it's long-term planning, but if you try to achieve a goal of at least - I think realistically you would almost have to get up to 25 per cent or 30 per cent to try to address the problem over the next five to seven years, to make sure that deficiency is not there. Even if you got it up to 10 per cent, you aim high and you come in low, it's a lot higher than where you're at now. I would urge the minister, if she would do that, to have her staff look at that.
I receive calls from young Nova Scotians, some are constituents, some are not, some I've never met before, and they're constantly calling when they graduate from university and saying, well, I can't even get an interview, I can't even get anybody on the line to find out where my application is and that sort of thing. There's a real problem there, it's almost as if the issue of perception and reality are starting to align, and it's on the issue that it's perceived to be a closed shop. I'm not suggesting that's the case, I'm just indicating that's the feedback I'm getting from many of the young Nova Scotians that I speak to who try to at least get their foot in the door, get some experience, at least just get to the interview level.
They don't want a guarantee. They don't appreciate calling a politician. It's not like years ago - the old-style politics. They're very proud young Nova Scotians and they want to do it on their own, but they need a helping hand to at least open the door, say, can I get in and I will sell myself, I can prove to them that I'm the best-qualified candidate. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but at least they want to get in there, and they can't get to first base. That's the primary basis of concern.
Maybe there is a policy to deal with that, and I realize there's a lot of expertise within your department, but there seems to be a growing concern among young Nova Scotians that the doors are closed even before they get to the other side.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: My guess, again, the whole process of applying for jobs, we may need to re-educate the general public in how we're doing things. Resumé writing alone, most individuals do not put their date of birth on a resumé. A lot of the information that we get back to government and within the Public Service Commission for people wanting to apply for jobs is through the resumé-writing criteria so that the resume is submitted and we keep these resumés on form. They do apply online also but, generally speaking, most people do not put their age on there. Sometimes you can do the math and go back and figure out when they graduated and so on but, as a general rule, the date of birth is not put on these.
[Page 562]
It's very good information that you have provided and we do realize the concern that is out there and, again, those numbers are something that we will be working on to try to change over the next years to come. I think that you will probably see that again with the aging population that we have in our workforce and the baby boomers, as they move out of the system, will make room for a lot of these younger individuals coming into the system but, again, we definitely have to watch out that we do not discriminate based on age of any individual who would like to enter the Public Service.
MR. MACKINNON: I can appreciate that, but I wouldn't see it as discriminating so much as addressing a global problem within government and that is that our human resource base is aging and we're not replenishing and regenerating. It's an evolutionary thing and I would be pretty sensitive too, let's say if I were mid-50s or early 60s and had a lot to offer and then said, well, no, you can't because of your age and I understand all that, but there's a balance that can be achieved without going there.
You will never make everybody happy, but I think in some way if the government started to put the word out, you know, we're encouraging more young people to apply, you are our future leaders, and it's only optional, but at least psychologically it will plant the seed within the department, not just your department but all departments, that perhaps, let's say we have a dozen engineers over at TPW who are retiring within the next five years and we have no new talent coming up behind so we have to start planning now. These are the types of administrative and policy decisions that should be collaboratively worked at. So that leads me to the next question, what specific initiatives has the minister taken to deal with her on-line departments on that issue? Has there been any communication back and forth that we can refer to?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Our time is finished for the Liberal caucus. We will conclude with the response to this question and then we'll move to the NDP caucus.
The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: I wonder if we could return to the question of the highway workers. Do you need to switch personnel?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: Madam Minister, I just want to see if I understand correctly what the current state of play is with respect to the negotiations with the highway workers and my focus here is not on the issue that was discussed the other day, which is the appropriate piece of legislation, what I'm wanting to discuss with you just at the moment is where things stand with respect to the negotiations now. So first I want to check to see whether I understand correctly what the current state of play is. My understanding is that the contract that's in place expired perhaps a year and a half ago, October 2002, is that correct?
[Page 563]
[10:45 a.m.]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Correct.
MR. EPSTEIN: So this is a full year and a half since the contract expired and my understanding is that under the existing and prevailing legislation that controls the negotiations, certain items can go to arbitration and be dealt with in that fashion. I gather that the board or commission that's set up under the Statute took the view that there was a range of items that they could legitimately deal with. Now, if that was the case, this would have set the stage for either progress in negotiations through the parties talking to each other, or for the use of a dispute resolution mechanism that could have set a contract.
Now, the interest of the parties is normally in getting a contract in place and yet, as I understand it, what has happened is that the department has chosen to go to court to challenge the jurisdiction of this tribunal to deal with the list of items that they thought they could deal with. Is that, in fact, the current state of play?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They have taken it to the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia.
MR. EPSTEIN: They being you, the department?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes. The Department of Transportation and Public Works is the employer here. They have taken it to the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia to see if, in fact, this is something that is arbitrable. The department has one view and the highway workers at this point in time, or their unit, have another view on this and it will be up to the Supreme Court to decide, I guess, who has the right in this choice of what is arbitrable and what isn't.
MR. EPSTEIN: Well, that's right. That's what we pay judges for. They make decisions if the parties can't themselves. However, the focus of my question is, why is this in court anyway? This seems to me to be a very peculiar approach to negotiations. For years I worked as a labour lawyer and I have to say that nothing gets up the nose of workers and unions, and more often I would say employers, than when they get the impression that the other party is ragging the puck and rather than getting on with the business of negotiating a settlement, which it's open to the parties to do, if what are widely seen as delaying tactics are invoked, then this becomes problematic and counterproductive in terms of good ongoing labour relations between the parties.
Labour relations is a matter of ongoing history. It's not one event at one time. It's a process of building trust, of building faith in each other, and actually coming together to work out problems. Things that don't seem to have a clear rationale are very puzzling. Now, you know, when I said I practiced labour law, it was primarily labour law on behalf of unions
[Page 564]
although I've done some management-side labour law as well, but primarily it's unions and it will be no surprise to the minister that in my Party we have close links with the union side.
CUPE is the largest union in Canada. If the department, the employer, the government, wants to engage with a union in court, then CUPE is well able to respond to going to court. They can hire the lawyers and they can deal with that. That's fine in a way, but it's not productive to good ongoing labour relations if it's seen as an improper delaying tactic. Now, I'm puzzled as to why this has gone to court. You said it's a question of whether these matters are arbitrable and indeed that's my understanding but, you know, it seems to me peculiar that this case is going to court at this stage or at all. The reason I say that is that it's not usually seen as beyond the powers of a statutory decision-making body to decide whether it has jurisdiction, that is to say to decide for itself.
There are some questions that do frequently arise in that context that have gone to court and, not surprisingly, for example, the Martin decision, with respect to the Workers' Compensation Appeals Tribunal on Charter jurisdiction, that's an example of something that's a contested area of law. Does an administrative tribunal of some kind have power to deal with the Charter? Well, that's something that's argued all the time. Does an administrative tribunal have power to deal with certain administrative questions that preceded what went on before a question arrives on its table? That's a dispute that sometimes goes to court.
But there's a third category of questions, which can arise at an administrative tribunal, which is a standard question. That question is, does this tribunal have jurisdiction to deal with the matter that arrived in front of it? When that's not a Charter question, when it isn't a narrowly-focused procedural administrative law question, then it's standard administrative law that a tribunal of any sort has the power to decide its own jurisdiction. That happens all the time.
If, later, one of the parties decides that they want to question that, because they think it's wrong, that can go to court, at some point, but it's very unusual to see a challenge, early on, before a decision is even made on the merits of a case, on that aspect of jurisdiction. An administrative panel, it's usually said, has jurisdiction to decide its own jurisdiction. So, I'm puzzled. Why is this case going to court at all?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, I guess, in the view of the employer, which is TPW, the March 22nd decision of the Highway Workers Employee Relations Board is seen as going beyond the jurisdiction of the board, as provided in the Highway Workers Collective Bargaining Act.
MR. EPSTEIN: Well, Madam Minister, this is, I have to emphasize to you, something that has real potential to cause a non-productive labour relations climate with respect to a significant segment of the group of public employees that the provincial government has to deal with. The perception is that this is an unnecessary delaying tactic, and I'm sure you can
[Page 565]
understand that for a contract to be outstanding for such a long period of time without resolution is bound to be frustrating for the workers involved. I would urge you to rethink this. Dealing with any professionals, doctors, accountants and lawyers, it's useful to take a skeptical view of the advice that you're given.
What I'm inviting you to do is consider the position. If this matter is going to court just because your lawyers are coming to you and saying that they doubt the panel absolutely has the proper jurisdiction here and they think it might be interesting to see what the court has to say, if that's the case, and I'm only guessing, I'm encouraging you to be skeptical about this and think strategically about the labour relations aspect of it, and consider the use of the law only as a tool, a tool that might advance good labour relations or might retard good labour relations. I hope you consider that, if it's within your bailiwick or urge it upon your colleague, the Minister of Transportation and Public Works, if the two of you discuss this.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I do thank you for the advice. Highway workers are valued by this government and TPW. They've been and continue to be an integral component of the Public Service of Nova Scotia. The employees and their union have the right to pursue interest arbitration, and we respect that. The appeal is not directed at the employees or their union, but as a board decision which we feel went beyond its defined legal authority. In the end, this is why we're where we're at and the decision has been made to go to the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia, for them to make a decision on what is arbitrable and what isn't. Again, having said that, I do respect your opinion, and will take it under consideration.
MR. EPSTEIN: Let's hope this is settled very quickly. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We're finished with questions from the NDP caucus. Are there any questions from the government caucus? Not at this time. Are there any more questions from the Liberal caucus?
The honourable member for Victoria-The Lakes.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Mr. Chairman, just quoting from some of the blueprint book here, it says in the Premier's message, "As a government we've worked hard to put in place the fiscal, economic and social conditions to help move Nova Scotia forward." Can you describe to me some of the social conditions - we'll go back to the Status of Women - to improve their conditions, since you've taken power? Just below it, he says . . .
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Could you repeat that first part again, please?
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: I'm just reading from the blueprint book, the message from the Premier, he says, "As a government we've worked hard to put in place the fiscal, economic and social conditions to help move Nova Scotia forward." He follows up by saying,
[Page 566]
"Today our financial situation has never been more secure . . ." That leads me back to the first question that I had previously asked about why the women's centres were locked in, for the last five years, at $100,000 in funding. I'm just wondering what social conditions have come about to improve the plight of women over the past number of years?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: From the social perspective and the Status of Women, one of the largest areas is the increased employment. There are more Nova Scotians working today than at any other time, including Nova Scotia women. The ability to be able to seek help and to be able to go to transition houses and so on, where in the past it was frowned upon, it's a more open concept, it's more socially acceptable for women to be able to do this. The increased employment, that women are actually out in the workforce, are more socially accepted within that profession or different professions across the province, and it definitely has boosted the numbers within this category. Again, in relation to the transition houses, just the ability to be able to seek help, without being frowned upon, is a huge step forward.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Do you think the employment statistics are a direct result of any programs that are being put forward by transition houses?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They definitely do counsel people and try to transition people back into the workforce. I'm not sure what the statistics are on those numbers, but I'm sure they are available. Any statistic, one is a lot in these situations.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: But the actual support for these transition houses is counselling only, there's no actual training that a person who has visited a transition house could enter a specific program and be trained and, as a result of the training, receive employment.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Transition houses are not training units, but they would put the individuals on the right paths, so they could pursue careers - whether it's upgrading with GED or whatever, they definitely would steer them in the right direction to have this at their fingertips so that they are able to achieve these goals.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: I see here also that it says, under the title of Safer Communities/Streets, you're going to increase support for the Domestic Violence Case Coordination Program. Has that been done? Is it ongoing?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be with the Department of Justice, and that's ongoing.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: It says here you funded new programs and services to support women and youth with addictions. Could you describe some of that for me, please?
[Page 567]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm not sure what the funding level is. It was a program that was administered through the Department of Health, which put more money into Addiction Services in rural areas in Nova Scotia, for women and youth.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: If somebody landed in a transition house, they wouldn't be treated there, as such, would they? Would they receive that treatment or support there, or would they be counselled to go somewhere else?
[11:00 a.m.]
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It would depend on the individual's specific needs. Every case is different. It's hard to say which way they would be at that point.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: But if somebody were to land there who was addicted to drugs or alcohol, there must be some specific programs in place that would steer these people or help them while they're there?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: They would be linked to Addiction Services. They could live at the transition house and acquire the service for Addiction Services through another department.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: It also says here about where you introduced new community-based programs through family resource centres to support healthy child development. Would that come under your jurisdiction?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: No, that would be under the Department of Community Services.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: What about the opening of daycare spaces? It says opened 400 full- and part-time daycare spaces.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And, again, that would be the Department of Community Services.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Community Services, okay, I will move off that topic. I see it says, "Create a 'Kids N Care' navigation system for children and youth with emotional and behavioural problems . . .", so I guess that would come under Community Services also?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Those are all Department of Community Services' initiatives.
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MR. GERALD SAMPSON: Okay, I would like to just touch on the highway workers. This appears to be a group that is doing good work, but living and working under rather stressful conditions. We've all received a letter asking for support for the highway workers which I signed and returned because there seems to be an initiative to phase out the highway workers and replace them with private contractors. This has been going on for quite some time and there appears to be little or no hiring anymore in the Department of Transportation and Public Works. Does that come under your realm under the Public Service?
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: That would be TPW where that would fall.
MR. GERALD SAMPSON: I was just thinking of the Public Service. Well, that concludes any questions I have for the minister and I want to thank you for that. That's it for me, Mr. Chairman, I've concluded my questions of the minister.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Government caucus, I assume has no questions. The NDP caucus, you're finished. We will take a two-minute break since the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is here and we'll move on to that department. Oh, closing remarks, I'm sorry.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Does the resolution get read at this point?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, you read the resolutions and any closing remarks you wish to make.
MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, I would like to thank all the members who asked the questions and, hopefully, we were able to provide as many answers as we possibly could. Any information that I have said that I will get back to you with, we definitely will provide you that in a timely manner. I would like to thank all the Public Service Commission employees and the Status of Women staff who followed me around for the last few days. I definitely appreciate having them here and at this point in time I would like to read the resolution:
Resolution E19 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $756,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. We stand adjourned for three minutes, if possible we can keep it that short, just to change staff.
[11:05 a.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[11:09 a.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
[Page 569]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I call the subcommittee back to order. We're now dealing with the estimates of the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.
Resolution E30 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $92,352,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plan of the Nova Scotia Municipal Finance Corporation be granted.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.
HON. BARRY BARNET: Mr. Chairman, let me begin by saying that I'm looking forward to answering questions on the budget estimates for Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs. This will be the first time for the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs; as members would know, this is a new initiative for the Province of Nova Scotia.
With me at the table is Acting Deputy Minister Greg Keefe and the Manager of Financial Planning and Budgeting, Greg Sewell. As well we have with us today Wayn Hamilton who is the interim Executive Director of the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, Jane Fraser from the Municipal Finance Corporation and Joyce McDonald is a budget officer as well. The Acting Executive Director of Municipal Services, Nathan Gorall, isn't here, okay.
I will start by saying I'd like to tell you a little bit about Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, but first I want to touch on a few budget highlights. By comparing the estimates of the funded staff from last year to this year, you will see a difference of about 50 staff. The majority of this difference is explained by the fact that 37 vehicle inspection and compliance positions were transferred from Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations to Transportation and Public Works.
Another line that should be explained is the distinction between the gross funded staff estimate and the provincially funded staff estimate. The first number, 885, refers to the total number of full-time equivalent positions in the department. Of those 885 FTEs, about 162 are funded by outside organizations. Virtually all of these positions are in the Assessment Services Division which undertakes property assessment for municipalities. These positions are appropriately funded by municipalities. The lower number, 772 refers to the positions funded solely by the Province of Nova Scotia.
Our department is an interesting mix. Virtually every Nova Scotian at some point in their lives has direct contact with our department - from registering the birth of a child to registering the ownership of a car to filing a deed to a home, all of these major milestones involve contact with our staff. This year our staff will have about 2 million interactions with
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Nova Scotians throughout our network of offices, the call centres, assessment services, Access Nova Scotia branches, the Registry of Deeds and the Registry of Motor Vehicles. We view our role as one of making every one of these 2 million transactions as easy and convenient as possible.
Our staff also play an important role in the development of communities. We foster strong municipalities with information and advice and with financial support. We also provide property assessment data to municipalities and over 500,000 property owners each and every year in Nova Scotia. Municipalities use that assessment roll for the levying of property taxes, which are the foundation of municipal finances. Through the Registry of Deeds, the department provides a vast array of geographic information and property registration services.
Like every government department, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations has wrestled with a significant challenge. Our costs were increasing, yet we had to keep the lid on spending. We are very pleased that we've been able to meet this challenge without significant reduction to front-line service operations. After all, this is the core of our department.
We will continue rolling out the new land registry system into more counties this year. We will also accelerate the migration of land parcels into the new system in 2004.
At this time, I'd like to go over some of the highlights of our business plan for this year. Part of our mandate is to help municipalities offer quality services to their residents as efficiently and effectively as possible. We are encouraging municipalities to share and adopt each other's best practices. For example, our department is hosting a workshop in Pictou County next month. The purpose of this workshop is to explore ways in which all six municipalities in Pictou County can improve efficiency and deliver programs through shared services.
We are leading an effort to expand the quality and the number of e-services available to municipal residents. A report with recommendations for further actions will be completed this year.
Earlier in my remarks, I had mentioned we had a plan to expand the new land registry system. This system will transform our 250-year-old paper-based property registry into a state-of-the-art electronic land registration system. This is a major undertaking in our department. Once fully implemented, it will benefit property owners for many years to come.
Mr. Chairman, these are just a few of the many areas where Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations employees will be acting on behalf of Nova Scotians throughout this fiscal year. Every day the employees of this diverse department go all out to help and serve their fellow Nova Scotians. They are fine civil servants and I am proud to be their minister.
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[11:15 a.m.]
As you know, Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is one of my portfolios. A much smaller operation, but an equally important responsibility is the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs. I am very fortunate to have two very capable people helping me to get this office up and running - Wayn Hamilton, the interim executive director and Evangeline Williams who is the support staff there. We plan to add more staff this year which will enable us to move forward with fulfilling the mandate of this important office.
The creation of this office was an important step to advance the interests of African Nova Scotians. I have learned a lot throughout my regular briefings with staff and with my meetings with African Nova Scotian community leaders throughout the province over the past nine months. One thing is certain - we have a lot of work to do. I look forward to making more progress on issues facing African Nova Scotians over the coming year.
I'm sure the committee has some questions and with the assistance of my able staff, I'll be pleased to answer those questions. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for your opening remarks. We'll begin with the Official Opposition.
The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister's overview of the department because, as he said, it's a large and very diverse group of concerns. Many of them are coming to the forefront in different contexts, obviously. There's a complex and changing relationship between the province and the municipalities and I know that facilitating that is one of the most important aspects of this that you have.
Perhaps I should begin by saying that the Municipal Government Act no longer includes one of the areas in which I'm very interested which is the Heritage Properties Act. I realize that's now under Health Promotion, but I don't know whether you've continued to have dealings with that at all?
MR. BARNET: To the extent where, from time to time, municipal councils or councillors or wardens or mayors will bring issues to me or to my attention. There haven't been a great deal of those brought to my attention but when they are, it's more of a facilitator to work with the minister responsible for heritage. Often, we're able to use the relationship that the minister and I have to assist municipalities.
MS. RAYMOND: Do you consider that actually an appropriate division at this point, that the heritage aspects of the towns and counties of Nova Scotia should be dealt with purely as a tourism promotion thing rather than as an essential element of the planning structure?
[Page 572]
MR. BARNET: What I would say is that although heritage has a significant role or factor to play in the promotion of this province from a tourism point of view, the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage has another role, which is to protect the heritage of Nova Scotia. It's a significant entity within that division. They have significant expertise from my perspective, with the expertise that they have and the fact that they're responsible for the Public Archives, I think it's the appropriate place to be. There will be times and occasions, like in all departments, where issues will transect more than one ministry and it's my hope and expectation, and it has been our practice, that when that happens we work well together and we're able to ensure that ministers are aware, and the appropriate actions are taken in the event any action is warranted.
MS. RAYMOND: I will probably come back to that because certainly, there's heritage promotion and there's heritage protection. I would argue that the built heritage of the province is, in fact, an important part of the infrastructure of the province and it deserves more than a passing recognition, it's one of those things, it's a non-renewable resource in essence.
I guess a lot of the questions right now are things that have been happening most recently and given that the province does have to deal with municipalities on the issue of funding and so on. Property assessments, both commercial and residential seem to be a real irritant at this point. Can you tell me - and initially I will be a little topical here - the question that is being asked about the provinces becoming involved in the assessment of the Imperial Oil Refinery and the bill that was introduced involved LNG, are there likely to be other instances that you can see coming up where the province would look at commercial property assessments?
MR. BARNET: It is difficult to predict the future but during the bill briefing earlier today what I did say was that it is our intention to move forward with a review of industrial/commercial assessment, to determine what would be in the best interest of Nova Scotia, and how we could best portray ourselves from a competitive point of view. It is an issue that has been out there in the forefront of municipalities for a long time. There had been a wide variety of one-off fixes, where they simply fixed one assessment or developed a mechanism to resolve one issue.
My belief is that we need to look at the entire picture and we need to do that in consultation with municipalities. We need to do that with the mind that we have to protect municipalities' ability to grow, and to support the services that they pay for through assessment. But we need to do that in a way Nova Scotians, as a whole, will benefit. I expect in the future - and I have said this - we will be moving forward with an initiative that will examine how we can first of all prevent issues like Imperial Oil from becoming an issue, and second to provide some level of predictability and stability for businesses that are contemplating locating here in Nova Scotia, so that we can be seen, from a geographical point of view, as an equal opportunity as our competing jurisdictions.
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Having said that, I wouldn't point to the future and say this industry or that industry will be the next. I think the best approach for government is to begin the process of understanding what the problem is, and put in place a resolution that is beneficial to both the Province of Nova Scotia and the municipalities, and more importantly, the people who live here.
MS. RAYMOND: I know that in some jurisdictions the assessment system is less of a blunt instrument, we have basically commercial and residential assessments. I think it is in Manitoba where they actually have a fairly sophisticated stratification of types of properties. Were you looking at that at all?
MR. BARNET: What we will do as part of this process is examine the practices elsewhere. I think it is important to find out what is being done in other jurisdictions. It will enable us to first of all have a look at how we compete and how we are from a competition point of view with our neighbours. Right now we do have a system that enables us to charge different rates for residential and commercial and I know that - you said, Manitoba, I'm not completely aware of what they do - in other jurisdictions, they have a variety of assessment types. While in Nova Scotia we have basically only the three: resource, residential and commercial and that maybe - I wouldn't want to prejudge - the outcome of a review of this may necessitate us looking at an approach or a model that's done elsewhere.
MS. RAYMOND: I think it is really a very important element of what is going on at this point because, philosophically, I think we need to be looking at the uses of property as much as anything. As you know, there is a great deal of friction around the property assessment issue and so on, when use as an income derived from property hasn't changed in the least, yet taxes do, due to external influences.
Looking at that, I know you said the individual municipalities are among the external agencies which are funding the assessment agency. Where would I go to find out which municipalities are, in fact, paying which assessment rates?
MR. BARNET: For the assessment division itself?
MS. RAYMOND: Yes.
MR. BARNET: All 55 municipalities contribute toward assessment and the formula is based on the number of accounts within a municipal unit and the overall value of the assessment. A municipality's bill would depend on, for example, if a town had 500 houses and x amount would be a calculation of the total cost to operate the assessment division with those two factors, depending on how much that particular town's bill would be.
MS. RAYMOND: So that formula does, in fact, take into account the actual value of the assessments though, does it?
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MR. BARNET: That's right, it's a combination of the two.
MS. RAYMOND: That could be a slightly conflicted relationship I would think. So where would I find those actual figures, of the recoveries from the individual municipalities for the assessment service?
MR. BARNET: We don't publish that information in any of our reports but we can produce that information. If you are interested we can provide you a copy.
MS. RAYMOND: Yes, I would very much like to have that. One of the other issues that actually comes up particularly in my constituency which is, I'm sure you know, partly urban and partly rural - and has not had the service exchange agreement reviewed actually since the time of amalgamation - is the issue of road maintenance and so on. I'm just wondering when, particularly with the HRM, we could expect that there would be a review of those responsibilities?
MR. BARNET: There were two agreements that actually were entered into with the HRM and the Province of Nova Scotia. One was a service exchange agreement where the HRM simply exchanged services that they were providing for services that the province was providing. Generally speaking, it was roads, community services, there were other things as well. I think what you are probably talking about more specifically is an agreement that was reached between the municipality and the province, specifically around roads and the jurisdiction of who owned which roads.
A regional municipality is different than a town and it's different than a rural municipality. The HRM entered into an agreement in 1997 or 1998, in fact, I moved the resolution in council at the time. There has been some ongoing discussion between the Department of Transportation and the municipality about amending that agreement, I believe it has been amended once. There is discussion around developing a new relationship that would see a different arrangement than what's there right now, an arrangement that's more practical for both levels of government, and would be a mutually agreed to decision.
MS. RAYMOND: Okay, sorry. I have to go.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you, my colleague had to leave for a few minutes so she has turned the microphone over to me. I would like to ask the minister some questions about the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs.
I want to start by saying I believe that the government has allocated a little more than $3 million - is that correct - to the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs for this year?
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[11:30 a.m.]
MR. BARNET: No.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: How much has been allocated? Maybe I'll just start with that - what's the budget for your office for this year and what are the full-time equivalent staff that will be in that office?
MR. BARNET: The allocation is $428,000. The full-time equivalent is 3.5. Bearing in mind that because we're an office that's under construction and we're just developing this now, we will be more than partway through the overall budget year before we are in a position to fully staff that.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: You started off by saying you will be adding to the staff so I guess I want to ask you, how many people will you be adding to your current complement? When will you be adding them and what will those positions be?
MR. BARNET: Currently we have simply Wayn as the interim executive director and we have Evangeline, who is the administrative support person. In the 2004-05 funded staff formula we have an administrative support, and these are 0.5: a clerk, a policy analyst, deputy minister/CAO and an interim executive director. So that's 5 halves and one full.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: The government has also created the Office of Health Promotion and has introduced legislation before us that actually defines what that office will do. I'm wondering, is it your intention to introduce legislation that will define the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs and place it inside the Public Service Act as is the case with the Office of Health Promotion?
MR. BARNET: I don't think we've actually contemplated that at this point in time. It's something we could take into consideration. What we have been doing is developing a business plan or a go-forward plan on how we develop the office and determine its complete role and mandate within government and how it will function within government. It's something that I'll take under advisement and consider. At this point we've been so busy trying to consult with stakeholders and to just do the initial groundwork of developing the office, getting it up and running and determining within government what our role and mandate will be that we haven't had a great deal of time to focus on an issue around whether or not we believe it needs legislation to give the office its mandate.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: That brings me to my next question, which is, how have you defined the role and the mandate? I think this far I certainly haven't seen anything that says this is our mandate, this is our role, this is the remit within which we've been given the responsibility to operate. I think that, certainly, I have a lot of contact with people in my community and from other communities and a question they're constantly asking is, what is
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that office going to do? I keep saying, we haven't heard how they have defined their goals and objectives.
MR. BARNET: It is a legitimate question that has been asked of us. In fact, one of the things that we began early on after being appointed as minister was a round of extensive consultation with key stakeholders to get advice, input and guidance in terms of feedback from them to help us develop exactly how they see this office benefiting the community.
The last thing I wanted to do was to come in and set up an office that may not completely mesh with the desires or the wishes of the community. We began a process of actually going out and meeting with individuals, groups and organizations. We started this almost immediately after being sworn in as minister and it's been a process that's been ongoing for the last nine months.
Literally, myself and my administrative assistant, and Wayn as well, have criss-crossed this province. We've been to nearly every single African Nova Scotian community in Nova Scotia. We've met with groups and individuals - both organized and not organized. We've sought out associations and groups on a variety of fronts that affect Nova Scotia. We've met with groups and individuals involved in social work, justice, youth justice, policing - including the RCMP and others. We've met with groups and individuals involved in education, both the public school system and post-secondary as well. We've met with groups and individuals involved in housing initiatives, heritage, tourism and culture, economic development, community development, nearly every facet of life; we went out and tried to do as broad a based consultation as we possibly could.
The concept was that I would go out, talk to them, tell them about the concept of what the office looks like from an initial blush and then ask for their input and advice and feedback. From that advice and feedback, we've been in the process of developing the actual role of the office. One of the things that we received very early on and consistent throughout the process, they didn't want an office that was simply going to sit and study issues. They want an office that would be able to bring action. They wanted a minister who would be at the Cabinet Table when key decisions were made. They wanted access, to be able to provide input to that minister for those types of decisions. They didn't want the office to replace existing programs that are being offered within government, particularly the Province of Nova Scotia, but as well, they specifically said they didn't want the office to step in and take over initiatives the federal government was doing around community economic development.
So, with that, we've been in the process of developing our mandate. It's loosely defined around a number of topics - community outreach, interdepartmental relationships with the African-Nova Scotian community, negotiate and discuss with African-Nova Scotians how government can support them through the variety of departments and services that we offer. As well, communication, education and public awareness around things that we do here in Nova Scotia. I guess the most important element is to be able to bring a voice or have an ear
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to the community at the Cabinet Table so that when decisions are made that will affect African-Nova Scotians, that there's an opportunity for their views to be reflected at that decision-making process. It's our hope and expectation that we'll be able to do that.
We've also begun a process of working with the other departments within government. We've sought out those groups and organizations and divisions within the government to seek their advice and support and to let them know that we're here and there will be times when we will come to them, looking for support.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: At the moment, do you have a draft of your goals or objectives, a mandate?
MR. BARNET: We're drafting and drafting and redrafting. At some point in time, in the near future, we intend to finalize our business plan - what we're calling now our business plan - which is loosely our mandate and what we intended, how we intend to see the office working for African-Nova Scotians and for all Nova Scotians. It's my expectation that will be in the very near future. It's been a task that Wayn has been working on diligently. It will guide the administration and the ministers in the future. So for that reason we want to do it right, we want to have it effective and efficient.
When we have it complete, if we're in session, it's my hope to table it in the Legislature. If we're not in session, at the next earliest and most convenient time, we'll do that. As well, if we're not in session and it becomes complete, we'll provide the critics with copies, and we'll start distributing it to the community members, so that they're aware of what we see as the role of the office and how it will work.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I appreciate that. As you know, I represent the constituency in the North End of Halifax where the Black United Front used to have its head office. Over the years, as a social worker and a community worker in the North End of Halifax, I certainly had a lot of contact with various people who worked at the Black United Front. I remember, very well, when funding was lost to the Black United Front, and I often say to people in my constituency, in the six years that I have been the MLA, I sometimes felt like hanging a shingle outside my office where it says, Maureen MacDonald, MLA and it would also say Halifax Regional welfare rights, the Black United Front of Nova Scotia, legal aid services and what have you.
I have seen so many organizations that were really important to different groups in my community and other communities lose funding during those 10 years of government restraint. The loss of the Black United Front, in particular, has meant that that kind of front-line, grassroots organization that so many people relied on was no longer there and was never really replaced, and still hasn't been replaced. This isn't to suggest that that's what your office should be doing, but this is something that definitely having an office now that can look at services in the reorganization and the reduction of government services and moving to a
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model of having core services and others providing services that aren't defined by core. What has been lost - for example, the African-Nova Scotian community - in that process? Who's there taking up the slack? Where are those resources that people need to develop new housing initiatives and get access to federal-provincial housing initiatives, initiatives around business development, initiatives around training and education?
One of the really important functions that the Black United Front played besides doing a ton of case work, I remember Frances Mills from the Black United Front, everybody knows Mrs. Mills, who's long been retired, but she was an amazing advocate and case worker. She carried huge case loads, and she was always working with families around issues, if their kids were having a difficult time in the school, she was there. If there were child welfare issues, she was there. If there were income assistance issues, she was there, if there were housing issues.
So, for many of the field workers with the Black United Front around the province, that's what they did. They were trusted advocates that did a ton of advocacy and case work, they went with people to court if they were trying to get custody or access of their children or maintenance. They helped them understand and negotiate systems that sometimes weren't all that friendly, weren't open, where, maybe, people from the African-Nova Scotian community didn't find themselves reflected in the personnel. All of these kinds of things that those field workers did, but then, beyond that, the Black United Front provided a place where leaders from various communities could come together and articulate and organize to be able to make their voices heard.
[11:45 a.m.]
When you're less than 2 per cent of the population in a province, that can be a challenge, when everybody else is clamouring for health care dollars, for roads and bridges, how do you, when you are such a small percentage of the population, get your issues treated with the importance that they deserve? The Black United Front played that important function, and I think its loss has been profoundly felt throughout the province. There hasn't been a vehicle for very dispersed communities to come together and make their voices heard.
I give the minister full marks for the program, for going around and meeting with people in communities. I've sat back and watched this process that you've gone through, and I know that you've probably had to handle some criticism for consulting. You know we've had reports, we've had all kinds of things, and the last thing we need is more, we need action. My observation is that you've been sincere, you've approached this very thoughtfully, and I think that's very important.
The next thing I would say is to focus on those reports. We have had quite a few reports in the area of education. We've had reports with respect to Blacks in the justice system in Nova Scotia, primarily the research that was done coming out of the Marshall
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Inquiry. We certainly have had several task forces and reports coming out of the ending of the Black United Front out of Community Services. There have been reports around inner-city education and a number of other studies. I think there is some sense in the Black community that there have been a lot of studies, a lot of reports, lots of consultation, lots of recommendations, but very little action and very little movement.
I wonder if there has been an attempt to consolidate all of the studies and the reports and the recommendations to really get a handle on what has already been done so that there isn't a revisiting or a recreating of what's already in existence and to really look at, how do you build an action plan on the existing foundation of studies and reports? Is that part of what you have done or you've thought about doing? I wonder if you could speak to that. Also, speak to the issue, how from a ministerial office you can build in or facilitate or find a way to continue to build community capacity to advocate for itself.
MR. BARNET: You've asked two very important question on points which we've been working extremely hard at over the past number of months. One is with respect to the reports and the recommendations and petitions to government. We've done some analysis, petitions to government date back to 1859 when Inglewood residents petitioned the Government of Nova Scotia for services. They worked through a series of reports, the Cooper Report, the Stevens Report, the Black Man in Nova Scotia Teaching Report from St. Francis Xavier University, the Human Rights Commission was established in 1967, in 1991 Nova Scotia responded to the Report of the Nova Scotia Advisory Group on Race Relations. There are and have been a number of reports that have been developed for government and it is a sad thing to say and to report that many of the recommendations have not been followed through on. Part of my task, as the minister, will be to develop a sense of good faith and goodwill with the community and the only way that I can see that we can develop that good faith and goodwill and to get complete buy-in about the benefits of this office and having this office work for them is if we start making some tangible steps forward.
One of the directions that I received from the Premier early on, and I heard it over and over again as I went through consultation, there have been a lot of reports done, Minister, dust them off, prioritize them, and get to work. That's, in essence, what we've done. We've developed a fairly comprehensive list of areas that have been identified throughout a variety of reports, including recommendations on health, employment, youth, education, community services, urban and rural services, community well-being, justice, tourism and culture, economic development, civic education and infrastructure, and those recommendations will be imbedded within our final report and become not just a business plan, but a work plan and a process where we can step forward.
We have analyzed this to death. The old saying paralysis by analysis applies. It's now time to get to work and that's what our office is about. We don't intend to spend a lot of effort redoing the work of others. We do intend to spend time ensuring that it's prioritized right and we make the right logical steps in a positive direction.
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With respect to your question on how we intend to continue to get advice and feedback, we've talked about this and one of the issues that I've spoken to the community about, and we've been talking about it in the meetings that I've had, is how I can, as the minister, continue to get the ear and the advice of the community and continue to have them involved in the decision-making process through me. We provided them with a variety of options. One of the options that seems to be coming to the top in terms of an approach is the use of primary reference groups as an opportunity to identify a number of key stakeholders who from time to time we will go to and seek advice and input on specific issues or on a variety of issues.
This is an approach that's used in this jurisdiction and in other jurisdictions that works very well. It is similar to Voluntary Planning and these types of things, where you have a list of key stakeholders who you can go to and receive advice from but, at the same time that we intend to do that, I see it as a primary role, as minister, to continue to stay in touch with the community through a series of consultations and through community meetings. The process of actually going out and meeting with community groups and individuals began nine months ago and will continue as long as I'm the minister and I expect the next minister will continue to do that.
I think it's a part of government, a part of good government, and I think it will enable us to at least ensure in our minds that the direction we're going in meets the approval of the community or at least the community is aware of it and is able to provide us with some advice before we make some key decisions. So I hope that answers your question.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: It helps for sure. In the last couple of days I've had an opportunity to talk with different ministers from different departments within your own government. I think just last week the Public Service Commission came in front of the Human Resources Committee, I think it was last week, and we invited them because we were really concerned about the implementation of some of the affirmative action policies of government. The Province of Nova Scotia has had an affirmative action policy in place since 1975 yet there isn't one government department that has put in place a three-year plan to implement affirmative action which was a directive that came from the Public Service Commission three years ago.
In their business plan they had an objective to have every government department and every agency, board and commission develop within the directives and guidelines of the Public Service Commission a plan of action to move forward with affirmative action and this has not happened. Now, I've had a chance to talk with the minister and to talk with the commissioner about this, as other members of the committee have, but I think about an office like yours and where it can have the greatest impact, and it is in trying to make other government departments, or I shouldn't say make, but to work with other government departments to ensure that the priorities and the resources are directed in a way that is consistent with the objectives of your office.
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So I wanted to know if, as minister, are you aware of this particular fact that not one government department has followed through on that specific directive and, if so, have you had anything to say about that and, if not, is that something that you will take up?
MR. BARNET: I will say this, that I am aware, the Premier and I have spoken about this specifically. He has expressed a deep concern that we haven't as a government moved forward far enough on this issue and that he has asked for our assistance in any way that we can to ensure that government moves forward on this directive. I can assure you that Nova Scotians will begin to see real progress on this matter and, you know, it's something that the Premier himself has taken a special interest in. I think it's one of those things that we, as government, have recognized and intend to do something about.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I'm just going to end by saying that I would be very happy to involve myself in any of the initiatives that you're working on. This is not something I have any expertise in whatsoever, but I have worked at the grassroots level for a long time in quite a few diverse communities - First Nations' communities as well as in Black communities. I mean I think it's incumbent on all of us to make this office effective and a success and I think we're probably unique in the country in terms of having this office.
I think that we've seen the Disabled Persons' Commission, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, some of these offices, they have quite often fairly limited resources and huge expectations and a considerable challenge in terms of the extent of what needs to be done, and so all of those things make it tough sometimes to be as effective as you want to be and you need to be in a short period of time. So I do believe it is incumbent on all of us, and not just members of the government, to make this initiative successful. I want it to be successful and if there is anything I can do in my limited role in that, I would be delighted to do that. So I just wanted to say that to the minister and we'll continue to have conversations around this, I'm sure.
MR. BARNET: I appreciate the offer. I will say that we are unique. In fact, we are the only province in this country that has an Office of African Affairs. This has generated a great deal of interest from other Canadians. I have spoken to Canadians in many jurisdictions who are watching very closely the benefits and the work that we do here. I appreciate the offer of assistance and I can assure you that there will be times when I will call upon you for your assistance.
[12:00 noon]
I agree that with the work that we do here in the Legislature and the work that this office will do and the work that needs to be done that it's incumbent upon all of us as legislators to move forward with these initiatives. They're worthwhile initiatives, there are things that have to be done and it will benefit Nova Scotia greatly when we're able to begin
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a process of checking off recommendations and seeing real successes and positive steps forward.
Having said that, I can see a point in time in the future when this office will no longer be necessary. I think that we should look forward to that day, when we're able to go through the list of identified recommendations to government and say, we've done what we need to do so that government now is open and accessible and benefits all of our constituents, when everyone feels they're part of the process and everyone feels they have a say and everyone feels that it's not just the government in Halifax, it's the government for them.
So I do see that time, unfortunately, there is a lot of work to do between now and then, but I want to say as well that this is a portfolio that I asked for because I saw that in the beginning and I recognized it by the constituents that I represent that there was work that needed to be done. I appreciate that comment.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.
MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: We were talking about the HRM agreement and the central core area. I found since then it was HRM 01 in 1996 which provided for future expansion of the central core area with the Department of Transportation. It was to be reviewed in 1999 and then again every third year after, but the service exchange, the review of the rolls and so on, precluded that. The Department of Transportation thinks they might be ready to do that, but does Service Nova Scotia have any kind of a coordinating oversight role to ensure that these sorts of standing agreements between departments are in fact reviewed as is appropriate?
MR. BARNET: We are involved to the extent where municipalities work through our department to ensure that other departments that may affect them are involved at the table. HRM 01 was an agreement that did have provisions for review and if I recall correctly, part of the rationale behind that was because of increasing development and the responsibility of roads inside and outside the core boundary. The idea of having a review would be in an effort to try to have a better approach to delivering the services. In other words, it would make more sense, particularly in the areas that are closer to the core - the core be expanded rather than have HRM out plowing one street in Dean or Upper Musquodoboit. So, those types of reviews are necessary and are ongoing.
MS. RAYMOND: Yes, this is the difficulty, that it has really fallen between the cracks and as you know, in a number of areas, urban cores are either growing or shrinking as the case may be and certainly here. Has there been any kind of an inventory of what standing agreements there are between departments? That could be a reporting thing - you don't have to do it - it could be required of the provincial departments to report and ensure that there is in fact a schedule of review that really is followed. It's been a lot more than three years - it's been six years.
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MR. BARNET: In respect to this particular agreement, there has been discussion and review and I can tell you that in the constituency that I represent, there are negotiations and discussions between the municipality and the Department of Transportation now to look at how to best implement the next step forward. It may mean HRM taking over some of the local roads. But in the big picture, as to an overall inventory of existing agreements that are out there, I don't think we have such a thing. There aren't a lot of them that I am aware of.
MS. RAYMOND: Good.
MR. BARNET: In many cases these types of agreements primarily benefit the municipality. So when there is an opportunity for or when they see the opportunity for a change in that benefit, they're quick to bring it to our attention. We try to respond as best we can.
MS. RAYMOND: I guess there aren't many, but you want to be sure it's all of them. I guess I would just say that's a place because one of the things that I've become aware of is that there are a lot of irritants and so on in those changing and growing areas, particularly. Because the relationship is not stable, obviously, we're looking at it in the assessment place as well. When it comes to the provision of services, which I know is done through the Department of Transportation and Public Works, but, even so, this department is involved in coordinating municipal relations. I would say that really does need to be done. Predictability, I think, is the one thing that, in fact, will smooth those relations.
MR. BARNET: If I can just comment on one thing you said about the relationship. Although there seems to be a great deal of effort and some media attention around what some would describe as an unstable relationship - particularly between me and the mayor or us and HRM - I don't see that. I think it's the opposite. In fact, I have a good relationship with council and the mayor and our staff too. But, often, we get to a point where fundamental differences of opinion will prevent things from moving forward, primarily around our own responsibilities and roles. We try to work through those and for the most part we do.
Inevitably, there'll be issues where we just won't have agreement. I guess in life that happens and from my point of view, I think it's beneficial. Particularly, when those disagreements occur that we agree to disagree and then we carry on because the interests of our constituents, the people that elect us, the people of Nova Scotia and HRM and all municipalities should be first and foremost. I think that's pretty much the way it works.
MS. RAYMOND: I would disagree to this extent - constituents who feel - perhaps this is in the aftermath of amalgamation - that they have been forgotten in the spots where this has been happening. This is around road maintenance and so on. Just real down and dirty, ordinary stuff. So I would say that perhaps the department has a place to put some structure and say, okay, not only will we negotiate, we will reach a conclusion if not an agreement. I don't know what structure that would follow but I would hope that is, in fact, happening.
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MR. BARNET: Can I just respond to that? I agree with you to the point where I would say that I probably share similar types of calls that you get because I have constituents both inside and outside of the core. I think primarily it's around the fact that there are two distinct and different levels of services that are being provided. What happens is you have people that drive over one level of service and into another one and that's where the issues are, that are brought to your attention, I'm sure, and mine as well, that we see on a daily basis. Somehow, in some way, we have to find an opportunity to have a seamless level of service, through negotiations and discussions with municipalities around HRM 01 and subsequent renewals of that. Hopefully we'll see that.
MS. RAYMOND: I know that the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities as well has some other concerns around this, but one of the other things which is about service agreements as I understand it, involves the various costs of policing - the RCMP agreements. They seem to be quite widely variable and I wondered if you could explain to me how that works.
MR. BARNET: That's a good question. It's probably one that would be better situated for the Minister of Justice who hasn't spoken yet, who hasn't appeared here yet, but there is a formula that structures what they pay for and who pays for what. There have been issues, particularly around policing about the huge cost particularly with respect to DNA.
MS. RAYMOND: DNA?
MR. BARNET: Yes, believe it or not, if there's a criminal incident in the municipality and the RCMP are involved in an investigation that requires DNA testing, that's extremely expensive and if a crime happens in a small town through no fault of their own, then they are the ones who are footing the bill for this very expensive DNA testing. That has been an issue, particularly in small towns, but it's my understanding that the Department of Justice has developed an approach that would see new technologies and the expensive technologies being shared by all municipalities, because crimes don't stop at one border and end at another. So the whole structure of police funding is something that's an ongoing discussion. I know the Minister of Justice appeared at UNSM last Friday and spoke to them about these issues. It's part of the ongoing dialogue that we have regularly to talk about these things.
Just for the purpose of the committee and yourself, there are different arrangements that exist between jurisdictions. Some towns directly contract with the RCMP to provide services. There are examples where towns that had their own municipal police force looked at a business plan and made a decision to contract with the RCMP to provide that service and I can point to an example, like Berwick. For others, the province hires the RCMP officers, pay the bills, and then pass the bills on to the individual municipal units. So there are different arrangements in different cases.
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MS. RAYMOND: Even with those though that are through the provincial policing agreement, there is a fairly wide variance. So I will address that to the Minister of Justice then but, again, nothing to be done with that one.
Something that I was wondering about also in the issue of jurisdiction, there is at least one precedent and I'm just wondering what your position is of a municipality requesting exclusive jurisdiction from the federal government over, in this case, an area of saltwater, what is the province's position there?
MR. BARNET: Can you ask that question again?
MS. RAYMOND: Yes. With a municipality going to the federal government to ask for exclusive jurisdiction over saltwater, I mean how does that happen?
MR. BARNET: Well, I will say this, that in Nova Scotia, like in all provinces, municipalities are actual entities of the provincial government and for interaction and jurisdiction between the federal government and municipalities, there is no direct connection, it's supposed to happen through the province. I can tell you in some provinces, like Quebec, it's very strict. In fact, the federal government is not permitted to expend money in municipalities in the Province of Quebec.
In Nova Scotia we have worked with a relationship where we believe it's important to ensure that the constituents are put forward first and that their issues and concerns are addressed first. We're not so concerned about jurisdiction, but we do understand and they understand that in Canada the municipalities are entities of the provinces and that we encourage them to utilize the support and services and the staff and the people here at Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and other departments to enable them to move forward with their initiatives and if it means working with the Minister of Fisheries or Natural Resources, or whatever department, on an initiative like saltwater access, we would encourage them to utilize those departments.
MS. RAYMOND: There are a couple of specific issues at Bedford Basin and in the Northwest Arm as well. As you know, there's the Halifax Harbour Port Authority and, of course, there's federal jurisdiction over the saltwater there. There is, however, a lot of infilling beginning to take place. Some of it is privately directed and other of it is, in fact, you know, municipally or otherwise directed, and I believe the municipality has, in fact, requested or is in the process of requesting jurisdiction over certainly the Northwest Arm. I don't know about Bedford Basin, but I guess I would argue that where the province isn't involved, these can be large and permanent shifts. The provincial Department of Environment doesn't seem to be engaging with this. So it seems, I mean, obviously it can't, but I would say that the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations really should be aware.
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[12:15 p.m.]
MR. BARNET: The navigable waters, the oceans, the bays and basins are the jurisdiction of the federal government.
MS. RAYMOND: Yes.
MR. BARNET: I guess if the municipality would like our support, we would encourage them to send us a letter. I can tell you that to my knowledge they haven't. We've not had any requests for intervention with respect to this. I do know somebody who lives in Middle Sackville near the Bedford Basin, near Mill Pond, that there has been ongoing discussions and concerns particularly with the infilling of Mill Pond in Bedford which is one of the areas that you spoke about, but I can tell you that it is a federal government responsibility and we expect the federal government to treat municipalities fairly and with respect. We would expect the municipalities, when they need our assistance and support on an initiative, they come to us and that we try to work with them and we will.
MS. RAYMOND: I don't know the current status of this.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Chairman, may I use some of this time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time is just about up, you've got a minute left.
MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Minister, I just want to try and elucidate this point just a little bit. You make a very good point. If the HRM hasn't come to you, then they haven't come to you. I guess all we're asking is that you begin to think about this problem a little bit because it is out there and, of course, navigable waters is a federal head of power which I don't think would go away. It's not a question of the navigable waters jurisdiction necessari