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MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call the Subcommittee on Supply to order. As discussed yesterday, the Minister of Natural Resources had to be out of town today, so we now have the Department of Tourism and Culture before us.

Resolution E32 - Resolved that a sum not exceeding $38,847,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect to the Department of Tourism and Culture, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plan of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia be approved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I ask the minister to come forward, make an introduction and make any opening comments and then we will open the floor to questions from the members.

The honourable Minister of Tourism and Culture.

HON. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, to my colleagues around the table, I'd like to introduce, to start off, those who are with me in attendance. I have Kevin Elliott, Manager, Financial Services; David Ross, Policy Director - they are on my right and left - and Dianne Coish, Executive Director, Culture Division. Also with me, as I have Tourism and Culture, Sport and Recreation, and the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, Joyce McDonald, Director of Financial Services; Barb Palmeter is here from Financial Services; Sandra Chaddock, Budget Officer; Kelly Deveaux, Communications Division; Mike Arthur from Sport and Recreation, along with Angela Poole and Barbara Klass; and from the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, Bruce Rogers and Greg Beaulieu. I don't think I missed anybody; hopefully, I didn't.

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I do have some opening remarks. As I mentioned to my colleagues in the Opposition, I believe it is around 25 minutes, just to give you the heads-up.

I am pleased to take the opportunity today to share information on the Department of Tourism and Culture's budget and priorities for 2002-03. In the coming year, our investments in tourism, culture and heritage will remain significant with this year's budget set at over $38 million. This investment will continue to stimulate economic growth, support our communities and ensure stewardship of our natural and cultural heritage. While our investment remains significant, our department has had to play a part in efforts to get the province's financial house in order. This has resulted in some reductions to some programs, while others have benefited from stable support.

I would like to reiterate that we are doing what we can to protect our investments throughout Nova Scotia and we are making additional strategic investments, which will have a significant and positive economic impact in the province. Our challenge in 2002-03 will be to remain focused on the priorities identified in our business plan, priorities that reflect the government's commitment to growing the economic and social significance of tourism, culture and heritage.

Before discussing the Tourism and Culture side of my portfolio, I would like to have a few moments to talk about the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation and the Sport and Recreation Commission. I will begin with the NSLC. In October 2000, I announced a number of initiatives related to the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, at that time the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission. One of the major results of that announcement came on July 26, 2001, when the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission became a Crown Corporation to be known as the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation.

A number of changes were required to the Liquor Control Act under Bill No. 20 and with these changes came new opportunities and challenges. The objectives of the corporation are clear. They are to promote social objectives regarding responsible drinking, promote industrial or economic objectives regarding the beverage-alcohol industry in the province, to obtain suitable financial revenues to the government and to obtain acceptable levels of customer service. We have appointed a new board of directors which will guide the corporation in meeting these objectives, and we will soon be appointing a president to lead the corporation on an ongoing basis.

A number of new initiatives and programs are expected in the upcoming year that will make the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation even more customer focused, providing a better service and choice to customers and help to grow the Nova Scotia economy. These include continuation of the store within a store concept, which has proven both extremely successful for the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation and very popular among consumers; establishment of private wine and specialty retailers later this year; increased support for the local wine, beer and distilling industry, which we expect will have a growing impact on Nova Scotia's

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economy in the years to come; and working with the Tourism Division of my department to help develop a wine-related tourism product, which has proven extremely attractive in other parts of the world.

As well, I'm sure I will be getting a few questions on Sport and Recreation today. The commission's broad mandate aims at enhancing the quality of life of Nova Scotians through sport and recreation. In 2001-02, there were 70 recreational facility development projects funded and two major facilities were opened: Yarmouth's Mariners Centre and Antigonish's St. F.X. Millennium Centre. In 2002-03, the commission's priorities focus on four areas: increasing participation, especially among children and youth; increasing availability and sustainability of infrastructure; increasing leadership and the quality of leadership in sport and recreation; and increasing the commitment and ability of communities and organizations to provide sport and recreation opportunities.

The goal is to continue building on the progress and achievements in fiscal year 2001-02. Major commission priorities for 2002-03 include introducing a physical activity strategy for the province and announcing the findings of the research study on physical activity levels of Nova Scotia children and youth. As well, with Team Nova Scotia's improved performance in the 2002 Canada Summer Games, preparation has already begun for the 2003 Canada Winter Games.

Now I would like to make a few comments regarding tourism. First, I will provide you with a brief snapshot of some of the accomplishments of the past year and then I will outline some of the programs and services that provide ongoing support for the tourism sector and, finally, I will provide you an outline of our plans for the upcoming year, including investments and priorities from our business plan.

Let's consider the tourism industry's performance during the past year. Nova Scotia's tourism industry continues to generate significant revenues and export dollars in all regions and communities throughout this province. Whether you live in downtown Halifax or in HRM or whether you live in Cape North or even in Yarmouth, each and every area of this province is impacted from our tourism revenues. In 2001, the industry generated more than $1.2 billion in annual revenues and welcomed more than 2 million out-of-province visitors. This is the fifth consecutive year industry revenues have surpassed the $1 billion mark, with two-thirds of this revenue representing export earnings.

These are impressive numbers and while they represent a slight drop over last year's performance, the tourism industry continues to be a solid and growing sector of the provincial economy. As my colleagues know and as was announced in the fall, there was a 2 per cent drop, although it varied around the province, depending on what area of the province you were in. Our government recognizes the strength of tourism in its role in the province's prosperity. It's part of our platform as a government.

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In the last couple of years, we've worked to strengthen our partnership with the industry. One example of this partnership is the Nova Scotia Tourism Partnership Council, which is a model of public-private partnership. The more than 50 industry volunteers who devote their time and expertise to the efforts of this council add an invaluable benefit to the work that we do.

This council reached a milestone recently when Nova Scotia's first-ever integrated tourism plan was released at the tourism conference in November. For the first time we have combined our annual marketing product development plans. The integrated plan represents the combined efforts of industry and government and is an excellent example of how we are collaborating and challenging each other to achieve our mutual goals of making the world feel welcome.

Another accomplishment that comes to mind is the successful negotiation of the signature resorts' contract. We have successfully negotiated a new contract with Newcastle Hotels to operate the province's signature resorts: Keltic Lodge in Ingonish, The Pines Resort in Digby and Liscombe Lodge in Liscomb Mills. Newcastle took over operations on February 1^st and with this new contract in place, resorts will become a net contributor to the province's bottom line. Our new arrangement is enabling the province to protect Nova Scotia's investment in these valuable assets while gaining additional revenues for provincial priorities and at the same time, making greatly needed capital investments as well.

In addition to these major accomplishments, we continue to offer our tourism stakeholders strong support through a variety of programs and services. For example, we provide ongoing support for tourism industry associations throughout the province, including support for operations and investments in festivals and events and special projects in communities throughout the province.

We also continue to produce and distribute over 800,000 copies of the Doers & Dreamers Travel Guide, including of course, the French version. This guide is one of a series of publications designed to promote Nova Scotia as a tourism destination. Other guides we produce include - and I believe that each MLA in the House should have received one and if my colleagues have not received them, I will make sure they get one - the Festival & Events Digest, the Guide for Nature & Outdoor Lovers, the Nova Scotia Golf Guide and the Spring, Summer, Fall Value Vacation Ideas book.

We also manage Check In, the province's toll-free information and reservation service which is operated by CorporaTel. Each year we host travel writers and broadcasters who subsequently publish stories in magazines and newspapers or on television. The department directly generates its own material for publication. This so-called free ink has the dual benefits of being free and having greater audience credibility than advertising. We also promote and distribute a series of 11 how-to tourism development publications designed to assist entrepreneurs and tourism operators with starting and operating tourism-related

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businesses. It is clear that the services and programs we provide the tourism sector are numerous and valuable.

After reviewing what we do and some of the accomplishments of the tourism industry last year, it's time to look ahead. I would like to provide you with a high-level summary of our investments in tourism in 2002-03. I'm proud to say that we will invest more than $18 million in tourism in 2002-03. This includes continued support for Nova Scotia's tourism, marketing and development activities, to promote economic development, industry competitiveness and positive economic spinoffs. As well, there will be continued support for the provincial Visitor Information Centre network, recognizing the important role it plays in welcoming our visitors and providing support to Nova Scotia's tourism industry.

In the upcoming year we will focus on increasing revenues through gift shops at our VICs and there will be stable support for the Tourism Partnership Council, a successful model of public-private sector partnerships and stable support for regional tourism industry associations in TIANS - the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia - recognizing the important role they play in bringing operators together and advocating on the sector's behalf.

Our investments remain strong and our approach remains focused. In the upcoming year the Tourism Division will focus on the following priorities as outlined in our business plan. We will be implementing the new industry/government 2002 integrated tourism plan.

As I mentioned earlier, this is the first time we've combined our annual tourism marketing and product development plans. Highlights from this integrated plan include high-impact marketing campaigns in our core touring markets of Atlantic Canada, Quebec, northeastern U.S.A. and Europe; and a special Nova Scotia promotion in Boston involving Tourism and Culture, Bay Ferries and hundreds of private sector tourism businesses. I should point out that The Cat promotion - the last time it was done was in 1999 under the previous administration - was very successful, and we saw that as a strategic move forward in this upcoming year.

[9:30 a.m.]

We will also continue our efforts to attract visitors with high-impact marketing campaigns in core tour markets of Atlantic Canada, Quebec, Ontario, northeastern U.S.A. and Europe. We're also looking at ways to be better connected and we will be taking steps to help our industry build on e-marketing success with new programs and promotions. We're also committed to building the business potential of NovaScotia.com. As well, we will be enhancing the experiences we now have.

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As one example, we will be working better to emphasize the tourism potential of the Bluenose II, which appears on the cover of this year's Doers & Dreamers Travel Guide. The Bluenose is a tourism icon indeed in the province and a powerful Nova Scotia ambassador. I should say that if you have the opportunity, you will also see the listing of where the Bluenose will be in Nova Scotia for our visitors. It's a question that we are frequently asked and I believe we can make even better use over the next number of years with the Bluenose.

We will also be developing a living history program of historical sites, museums and we're working to further develop a provincial system of world-class coastal hiking trails. Clearly, tourism remains strong in the province, and through partnership and investment it will continue to grow and thrive.

Now on to Culture. I would like to provide you with a brief snapshot of some of our accomplishments in the past year in the Culture Division and then I will outline some of the programs and services that provide ongoing support in the culture sector. Finally, I will provide you with an outline of our plans for the upcoming year including our investments and priorities.

There is no doubt - and I'm sure I'm going to get a few questions today on the Culture Division - our culture sector here in the province is a driving force in economic growth as well as being very important from a social perspective as well. It contributes some $800 million annually to the province's economy. We recognize the significant growth and contribution and I want to make it clear that our department is an active supporter and promoter of Nova Scotia's culture sector.

We recognize the importance of our artists and our cultural community. In recognizing this, we introduced new culture programs in 2001-02 with a greater focus on community cultural development and cultural industries. This supports our government's commitment to increase regional cultural activities, market our cultural strengths and generate export revenues. Our new programming provides improved access and a competitive process for cultural investments.

Five new program areas have been defined: cultural activities, which will support any project that celebrates or invites participation in cultural activities or develops skills in the culture sector, of which we have had our first guideline this year - to give those around the table an idea, we went from 45 applications last year and now I believe with more people in the province knowing about the programs, there's now over 90 in the last round alone - youth, which will support children, the youth and arts; industry, which will support partnerships aimed at economic growth for cultural enterprise; anchor organizations which support strong infrastructure for the culture sector; and facilities, which will support facilities in Nova Scotia that are used for venues for cultural performances and events. One which comes to mind as an example, the Savoy in Glace Bay.

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These five new program areas support four very specific goals. These goals are very straightforward and speak to the government's commitment to community cultural development, industry growth, artistic development and anchor organizations. In addition to our new programming we will also have the new Arts and Culture Council. The council replaces the former Nova Scotia Arts Council and brings with it a broad focus representing all arts and culture genres in all regions of the province. For weeks now, people from the arts and culture sector as well as members of the Opposition have been expressing concerns about the decision to replace the Nova Scotia Arts Council with the new Arts and Culture Council. I do believe that it has been the right decision and it is the right decision.

I acknowledge the time and energy spent lobbying and working for the establishment of the Arts Council for Nova Scotia and I also want to recognize the previous government's work in putting it in place. I also recognize the contribution that the council and its members had to the growth of arts in this province. However, as I mentioned earlier, I believe the focus with respect to the programs being in place and, something I feel very strongly about with regard to the peer assessment model, that we can move forward not only with those programs but also with respect to having even greater involvement in other programs within our department.

The qualified team of arts and culture leaders is currently in place to help shape the Arts and Culture Council. I'm confident that arts and culture will continue to thrive in Nova Scotia. We have produced world-class musicians, artists, writers, actors, dancers and craftspeople for years and this has not been by chance. We are a culturally rich province with a unique perspective on life and the world around us. With the introduction of this new Arts and Culture Council and continued investment, we will continue to grow and develop our local talent in each medium and region of the province.

Speaking of investments, we continue to invest in culture programs that benefit our theatres and events, our artists and musicians and book publishers, our film and media industries, our cultural organizations and facilities. I am proud to say that we will be investing over $5.7 million in culture in 2002-03. I would like to add that we are also investing over $1 million in the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia.

Now, for the members' information, I have just a few more pages left and I know that you are getting anxious for questions. I do want to get some things on the record as you can understand as well.

Now let's look at our priorities for the upcoming year as identified in our business plan. As I mentioned earlier, we are working with a culture sector team of arts, culture and community leaders to establish the new Arts and Culture Council. We are also working to implement new provincial cultural industry strategies in partnership with industry. Investments will be focused on developing export sales opportunities for cultural products and designs to use in media, music and sound recording, production crafts and publishing.

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As I said earlier, with continued investment and partnership, the culture sector in Nova Scotia will continue to grow and flourish.

When it comes to our heritage resources, more than 28 per cent of all visitors go to museums, while over 35 per cent visit our historical sites. Hereto we are working to ensure continued focus on preservation and protection with investments in community museums and the Nova Scotia Museum network. We have been involved in extensive exercise to strengthen our vast network of heritage resources. We know our museum network is a source of economic activity, employment and pride. Each year we support our Nova Scotia Museum network and provide assistance to community museums throughout the province. We maintain and use over 200 buildings and 26 museum locations in the province. Hundreds of thousands of people visited our museums last year and over 40,000 children use one or more of our school kits that are sent out to schools to supplement the curriculum. These services and programs are valuable to the heritage sector and will continue to receive support.

In 2002-03 we will invest over $9 million in heritage. We will provide stable support for the Community Museum network and for locally managed museum sites throughout the province. The Nova Scotia Museum network is a source of economic activity, employment and pride. There will be some reduced funding support, approximately 4 per cent to seven provincially managed sites which include Sherbrooke Village, Ross Farm, Fundy Geological, Fisheries Museum of the Atlantic, Museum of Natural History, Museum of Industry and the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic. Reductions were made to these sites because it was felt they are best able to earn additional revenues from non-government sources. There will be a reduction in funding support distributed throughout the Heritage Property Program, a refocusing of the program with a focus on policy, advice and expertise. In the upcoming year we will focus on increasing revenues in our museum gift shops.

In the upcoming year one of the priorities outlined in our business plan is to work to increase our heritage expertise, information and advisory services to communities. This includes establishing a new function within the Nova Scotia Museum system with a primary responsibility to deliver and enhance expertise in coordination with the communities in research, training, preservation, presentation and promotion of local heritage. Efforts will focus on partnering with the communities to promote utilization of best practices and management of heritage resources.

In 2002-03 we will also partner with the federal government and communities to initiate a virtual museum initiative interpreting the heritage and culture of coastal Nova Scotia and supporting the province's position as a seacoast tourism destination. This includes increasing provincial and community heritage resources and information available on-line through the Nova Scotia Museum and the Nova Scotia Archives to promote educational resources and opportunities for Nova Scotians. We will also undertake a comprehensive analysis of the provincial museum system to identify measures and address gaps in the development, preservation and promotion of our heritage.

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As for the strategic goals identified in our business plan for 2002-03, we will continue to develop the economic and export potential of Nova Scotia's tourism and culture industries. We will continue to support economic growth and the quality of life in communities throughout Nova Scotia through development of our culture, heritage and tourism sectors. We will continue to provide stewardship of Nova Scotia's heritage and culture identity through development, preservation and presentation of Nova Scotia's culture and heritage resources and institutions. We will continue to deliver effective and accountable corporate support through government records management, archival programs and protocol services.

Specifically, we will strengthen our investment and support in Acadian tourism, culture and heritage. This includes capitalizing on the significant economic opportunities of the upcoming World Acadian Congress and the related celebrations and events in Nova Scotia during 2003 to 2005. These events will encompass several years of celebrations and present us with an opportunity to draw visitors from across North America and of course Quebec. Specific actions and priorities for 2002-03 include working with the Acadian community and the private sector to develop product and market opportunities, creating on-line an exhibit and historical information through the archives of the Nova Scotia Museum. As you see, this encompasses all three sectors: culture, heritage, tourism. As someone who represents an Acadian area, I can tell you that the Acadian communities across this province are very much looking forward to the opportunities which will be in those years.

We also successfully launched the Order of Nova Scotia during the past year and before touching on it, I would just like to thank both Parties for their support in that initiative. I think it's a valuable initiative and I'm glad to see that they also think so. Mr. Chairman, I know it's an initiative that you were very fond of. Established in 2001 it is the highest honour that the province can bestow upon its citizens. Recipients will be recognized at a ceremony this summer and will receive the Order of Nova Scotia medal.

I must also take a moment to mention again the important role that NSLC plays in supporting the programs and services of government through its significant financial contribution each year. This coming year they have been given an ambitious target. The board and staff of the corporation have worked diligently to put together a plan that will achieve this target with a combination of sales, volume increases, internal efficiencies and pricing adjustments. I am confident that the NSLC will not only achieve its goals this year, but will also continue to transform itself into an even more customer-oriented and efficient organization in the years to come, helping to grow our economy with local industry.

In conclusion, I hope that my remarks have left you with a sense of some of the accomplishments, some of our challenges and some of the goals and priorities we have for the upcoming year and beyond. We have some fundamental strengths in our tourism, culture and indeed heritage, and I look forward to working in partnership with our stakeholders for

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the benefit of all Nova Scotians. I look forward to the questions, and I'm sure there are many, by my colleagues in the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. We will get underway with the questioning now. Who will be asking the questions on behalf of the NDP caucus?

The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.

MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Minister, you went over your list of responsibilities and they are significant, without question. Your staff does a fine job carrying out those responsibilities in the different departments and divisions that you are responsible for. I don't think there is any question about that. The areas that you are responsible for have an important role in the Province of Nova Scotia and contribute to the life and the fabric and the vitality of this province. I appreciate that it is a responsibility that you understand and that you take very seriously.

[9:45 a.m.]

We are going to start off today, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Minister, with some questions with respect to the Arts Council and the decision that your government has made to remove the Arts Council. There are a lot of other things that we're going to be talking about, myself and my colleagues, over the next few hours, that cover other aspects of your responsibilities. I do want to start, if I may, with the Arts Council and I do so because it is an example, perhaps, of an area of your responsibility that covers not only a great number of people and a great number of communities, but it affects the very fabric of this province in many ways.

When decisions are made by you and by your office, your department, that have a negative or a positive impact on that community, it's something that we need to talk about. I think you would agree that when you have made positive decisions we have not shied away from praising you and your government for doing those things. Likewise, when you make decisions that we don't agree with, we have been quick to try to understand those decisions and to suggest to you that perhaps there could have been other ways to handle them.

The decision that has been made by your department with respect to the Arts Council we feel is wrong, and part of what I'm going to try to do is to get at the basis for that decision. I think you get some sense of how wrong it was simply by the reaction that you've seen from members of the arts and culture community from one end of this province to the other and from one end of this country to the other.

Mr. Minister, I and others have talked inside and outside this House about the decision that was finally made by the former government in 1996-97 to establish an arm's-length Arts Council - arm's-length from government - with an important peer assessment panel review process, and we applauded that move. The late MLA for Halifax Fairview,

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Eileen O'Connell, it was an issue that was very dear to her heart and to those who supported Eileen, and an issue that she spent a great deal of time working on, as did hundreds and thousands of people involved in that community over the past 20 years.

We were the last province in this country to establish that type of body and so we felt pretty good, all of us, I think, on all sides of the House about the decision that was made. It was recognized as a real step forward, a real mature step in the way that funding for the arts is handled by the provincial government. We don't have the greatest history in this province for funding, for handing out money, for distributing largesse in whatever area that is, and arts and culture has not escaped that reputation or that tarnish that the government has had in the past, that funding for the arts has been far too political. So it was a giant step forward.

While the legislation was an important step, I think most of us would recognize that the step in terms of funding was a modest step, that there wasn't a huge chunk of money put to it. That $1.5 million for distribution, many of us thought it should have been more like $7 million or $8 million, but it was a start. I think that maybe the thought of the government of the day was that establishing this Arts Council and how it functions and the processes by which it functions was not going to be easy. It was going to be difficult, that the Arts Council had to find its way. I have certainly heard from those involved who have said that that's in fact what happened, that they have spent many more hundreds of hours trying to get it right and that that was an ongoing process, right up until the point of the fateful decision.

The difficulty over the past couple of budgets is that while the administrative processes were put in place and they were trying to deliver responsive programs as a result of what they were hearing from the communities and from the arts and culture community itself, they were facing cutbacks in the last two budgets, fairly significant cutbacks, which meant that they were moving forward but then all of a sudden had to start moving back and trimming around the edges and making decisions to end some important programs, very difficult decisions. But I think remarkably, recognizing the problems that they had and given the challenges that they faced in delivering these programs, that the people involved in the Arts Council committed a great deal of energy and effort and time ensuring that what they did, they did well, that they did the best job they could.

I know that over the past year there have been discussions between your department and the Arts Council of shifting further responsibility over to the Arts Council that was originally being handled by your department, some other funds that were sent to other organizations. Other organizations, of course we think of the big four - an area that the Arts Council wanted to become involved in - Symphony Nova Scotia, Neptune, the Atlantic Theatre Festival and the - what's the fourth one?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mermaid.

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MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mermaid - sorry - and that there was some optimism, I think as a result of discussions with your department that that was going to happen. In fact I understand that as recently as January of this year, in a meeting with the Arts Council, you said the door was still open to that possibility. You have a pretty lean, mean machine there, I would suggest, in the Arts Council, administratively. You have used some figures which I will talk to later that you are going to save anywhere from $270,000 to $370,000 administratively as a result of this decision. I think there are some real questions about that and I am going to hopefully get to that.

I guess the point is that the level of administration, the administrative structure and the processes that were there, could well handle the additional responsibility of the big four and could handle additional money without any increase in administrative costs. In other words, while there have been the estimates that the administrative relationship to funding has been 17 per cent, which is high, admittedly if they were funded properly or appropriately in terms of the need to help deliver programs and funds to the arts and culture community, that percentage would be much less. On the one hand, the Arts Council administration has pared itself back to the point where it is extraordinarily lean, but all the while they've had the funds that they've been administering cut back, and so it makes it very difficult. I don't think there's any question that they could certainly deliver, administratively, a much greater sum.

Mr. Minister, the decision hit people like a ton of bricks, I don't think anybody saw it coming. Maybe that's a good thing. I don't want to say that your government has an overarching strategy on how to deal with funding cuts, but the Minister of Community Services tried that on the transition houses and women's centres and men's programs. I find it extraordinarily distasteful, frankly, that your government would treat people who participate with you in delivering programs with the greatest deal of faith and respect, and then they get treated like that, to have found themselves with the door to their office padlocked, with gendarmes standing outside, it's an ugly thing. I think you would have to agree, surely. I understand you are a reasonable man; you must find this distasteful.

Why was it done? Why did it happen? In January, when you indicated that the door was still open to an expansion of responsibilities for the Arts Council, when you had a consultation with people in the Province of Nova Scotia where there was not a word said about abolishing the current Arts Council, when you see the kind of disruption that's been caused by this decision, why did you do it?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I guess I have to roll the clock back a little bit, as you have done, to when it was first created in 1996. At that time - and that's before my political career - I was a teacher and also a musician, somebody involved in the artistic and cultural community. At that time, I couldn't agree with you more, I thought that the forming of the council and those programs available were a great idea. I also thought the idea of peer assessment and the jury process was a great idea. In fact - we can read in today's newspaper -

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I even applied to a program. (Interruptions) I didn't get it that time. If I hadn't gone into politics, I probably would have put in another one, because I saw the value of the programs.

In the last few months, there's no doubt, this is a passionate issue for people across the province. It's a passionate issue because a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into seeing that become a reality, as you mentioned. I think the foundation, the members on the council and the staff put in place, was a very strong one with respect to those programs.

In the new model, in the new Arts and Culture Council model, and I've tried to make the point as clear as possible, I've tried to do that in the House and in the press releases and with the media. Sometimes messages get out fully and sometimes they don't, as I know all members can fully understand. The programs that were in place under the Arts Council will be in place in the new model. As I said, I see the benefit of those programs, as you see the benefit of those programs. The peer assessment model will be in place in the new council. In fact, we will not only be utilizing the council with respect to the programs that were being put forward through the former Arts Council, we will also have the new council involved. I guess you could call it a broadening of the mandate. There are different words to describe it, I'm sure.

[10:00 a.m.]

We will also have them involved in the Art Bank Purchase Program. The Art Bank Purchase Program - I'm not sure if you're aware - was under review. We had a team in place, and the first recommendation they put forward was to reinstate the Art Bank Purchase Program. This we have done. We will have the new council involved in that process, also with our Cultural Activities Program which was being done through the department.

In fact, I guess you can look at it that those involved in the arts and culture sectors across the province will have more opportunity, more say in the dollars that we give out as a department. I see value in that; I see value in that because there will be an opportunity for people within that process, from across the province, to have input into those programs and to have a say in where those dollars go.

I've been accused of making this a purely political decision, and I want to say quite clearly on the record that it certainly was not. If that was the case - and I have indicated, if that was the case - we simply would not have had the programs move forward and not had future involvement of people across the sector if it was simply a political decision. I think the evidence is quite clear that by putting forward the new Arts and Culture Council, we're now putting a team in place, I feel, of very competent people from across this province to help us move in that transition period.

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You raised a good point, I did meet with the Arts Council in January. As you know from being in the House for a great many years, governments go through a budgetary process as well. We take a look at our priorities for the upcoming year. You mentioned as well about the Arts Council and how you would have loved to see $7 million or $8 million, well, I would have loved to see the Finance Minister give me $7 million or $8 million or $10 million or $15 million or $20 million, as I am a firm believer in investment in creation, in our cultural industries, in our organizations, and I think from a social perspective that investment carries over a long way for strengthening our communities and indeed strengthening the economics of our province as well.

During the budgetary process, in taking a look at the dollars we had available and having the responsibility to ensure that those dollars are being used in the most effective manner or way possible, we made a decision with regard to the Arts Council. You mentioned as well the consultation process. The consultation process was something that - when we went through the process last year, with respect to our programs, I indicated at that time, and made a commitment, that we would go out and have a discussion with respect to those programs, around the province. As well, at that time we were looking at having some advisory councils regionally.

The very reason we made that commitment, and I've also made a commitment that we will go out year after year. That's my intention, to make sure that we go out to the people of this province and say, listen, here are the programs we have available, and to let people know what programs are available, something that I don't feel we've done a good enough job of in this province during the last number of years. In many cases, if you look at our programming in the Culture Division during the past number of years, it seemed as though, when I first became minister, that a new program was coming up every day. One day there would be a new program for this, and the next day there would be a new program for that.

It seemed that oftentimes programs were made for organizations and people didn't have a clear opportunity to apply. People didn't have, I don't feel, a clear enough opportunity to see what was available and that's why I feel quite strongly about getting out there to regions and indicating what we have. That's why I mentioned earlier that you saw 45 applications last year for cultural activities in the first round, and this year, 90. I feel it's a direct result of those consultations, and I hope that next year there are 190. I think that will also show my Cabinet colleagues the importance of investing and future investment. By getting our financial house in order, I believe we will have that opportunity for future investment.

When the decision was made and when the change occurred, it was a difficult process. I know even looking and knowing that we are going to be going through this transition process that it's a difficult one for our staff and it's a difficult one for the staff that were involved in that process. That transition process is ongoing with respect to the staff. I'm sure my colleagues from the previous government who went through maybe not the same

[Page 517]

type of change, but similar changes perhaps, in changing departments or so on, that they may have gone through changes with respect to ensuring that assets of the government, as such, are also secured in that process. That's a responsibility I would have as a minister and the government has in doing so, as well.

I don't know if I fully answered your question. I have tried to give you a background, I guess, of how we got to the decision. I'm sure you will have more questions with respect to it and perhaps I can answer part of another question, if there's a specific question that you have with respect to that process.

MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Minister, so you're telling me that you decided as a result of the budget process that, I guess, maybe, the Minister of Finance told you that you needed to cut some more money. (Interruptions) Go ahead.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No, if you have a question, I can get into that a little more, if you would like.

MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: You said two things there, I think. You said, number one, I think you suggested that the Arts Council wasn't doing the job as well as it could, that the new Arts and Culture Council that you have set up will do a better job. I guess what I'm wondering is, on what basis do you make those claims and if you had a problem with the Arts Council as it existed, did you ever talk to them about that? Did you ever share with them the concerns you had, if you had any, in fact, legitimate concerns, number one? Number two, on what basis did you say to the Minister of Finance, okay, I'll cut x number of dollars out of my budget and here's how we're going to do it? Did you come up with a plan? Did you do a line-by-line itemized statement of what you were going to save, on the one hand, and what it was going to cost you to bring all of that work in-house?

Come on, to suggest that you're going to continue to do the same things, you're going to administer the same amount of money and you are going to do it for nothing, I think that's a bit much, although I understand that the honourable member for Dartmouth South has been out suggesting to people who would participate on these peer review panels, that when asked whether they would be remunerated, he said, no, no, it'll be just like lawyers doing pro bono work. Well, of course, the problem is that lawyers tend to make some money, a fair chunk of money, and pro bono work is calculated in there as a bit of that and often as a bit of promotional work, not to be overly crass. Too often the case with people who work in the arts and culture sector is that if they're not working, they're not making money, they're not producing anything, they're not creating anything; they're not generating that type of situation for themselves.

So my question is then, if you made the decision simply on the basis of money, if you said we are going save this amount of money, I'd like you to show me, line by line, person by person, how are you going to save that money and not, in turn, spend it when you try to

[Page 518]

deliver the program and, in fact, an expanded mandate, as you have so proudly described, that the new council will be involved in? Let's see if we can't square some of that a bit.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That's a fair question. If you take a look at last year, we provided $1.2 million, $1,238,600.

MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: What is it, really? You just gave me a few different figures. It's $1.2 million, right?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Sorry. I was going to say roughly $1.2 million, but it's $1,238,600. We indicated earlier in the budget process that the council would take a 5 per cent reduction of $65,000, which would have taken them to, I believe, $1.169 million, roughly around there. If you take a look at last year in the Arts Council, we have gone through what was being spent. I don't have all the details on me today. I have no problem providing a copy to both Parties, as was asked yesterday in the Legislature. I knew I was going to get that question today, as well. I will provide a copy of that for you. You can understand that we're still going through a transition process in all of this, as well.

Last year, $424,655 was spent between program delivery and administration. Grants that went out from the Arts Council were at $813,945. There was more money spent on administering the money, as an example, than for individual artists and creation grants. I look at program delivery administration as administering dollars because dollars are not getting into the hands of the people in the front line. There was more money spent on doing that than there was getting out to the individuals.

We went through a structural change last year. We have a structure within the department. I guess, from a layman's point of view, as well, there's an office in the World Trade and Convention Centre and there's an office down the street; there's a duplication of space and administrative costs, as you know, with offices. Indeed, we have three staff within our department now, within the space that we have at present. Again, we're still going through that transition phase with each individual staff, as each circumstance is different.

This wasn't just simply about saving money for the Finance Minister, and I want to make that clear. If it was, that $270,000, roughly $0.25 million, he would have simply not have provided it for programs. I felt very strongly that that should be reinvested and that it had to be reinvested back into the programs. We will be able to provide those programs within the financial complement of that $100,000 to $120,000 and put those dollars back into the programs that are available in the arts and culture. I have no problem providing that for you.

[Page 519]

[10:15 a.m.]

Right now, in our structure, there are two FT positions that have not been filled yet within our division. Within that complement of the two positions, as well as another position, we will be able to to provide the administrative support, through those positions and through our department, that was being handled through the Nova Scotia Arts Council.

Of course, the new council is going to play an important role. That's why we have a transition team in place, as I mentioned, as well. They are part of this process as we move forward and their input is going to be a cornerstone to how we move forward on that. As I mentioned, I will, on a future day, be more than happy to provide those details, which I feel you deserve as a member of the Legislature as well and we will provide them for you.

MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Let me be real frank. I think the savings are negligible, number one; number two, I don't think there's going to be any savings for the year 2002-03; and number three, and perhaps the most important thing, on the basis of minuscule savings, I would suggest you have turned a principle of arm's-length funding and peer assessment in the arts and culture community on its head. You have taken us backwards. You have taken the Province of Nova Scotia, in the face of what's happening across this country, back 20 years with this decision.

You may say, no, no, we're going to keep handing out money, but you see, Mr. Minister, the whole principle behind this independent Arts Council was to have it away from politicians and politics, to have it in a place where the people who are directly affected by those programs can have direct input on the basis of what's real, on the basis of what's going on, on the basis of quality and performance, not on the basis of, well, we need to make sure we get a little bit in this constituency. That's the thing and that has always been the way.

I'm not suggesting that you're a bad fellow or that your staff are bad people and that they're going to be subject to influence or all the rest of it, but you like to present yourself as the new guy on the block, a young man and somewhat naive, but that's a lot of bunk and we know it is. You've been around the block and you're from a part of this province that knows politics as well as anybody else or anywhere else in this province.

You know why there was such pressure on the former Liberal Government to make this change. It was to get the responsibility for funding for these individuals and for these organizations out of the government sphere. Now, you may say that it's government money, it's taxpayers' money. It's true. It was when it was over there. The principle, though, is that out of respect for an organization, as we do in other spheres, we have said it is best for you to handle it. It is best under strict accountability rules and so on and so forth, that you know best because you're closer to the communities and you're closer to your own sector. You know best. People who work in the arts and culture sector know best what's good for the arts and culture sector.

[Page 520]

That's what was said by the former government and by all of us when we applauded this move. We said the time has ended when we, government, big papa, are going to tell you how best to run your affairs with this. Let's recognize that it's not a huge sum of money, but when you're looking at women and men who are operating on annual incomes - as you know - sometimes who are working hard to reach double figures, it's important.

I know that the piece ran today and that you were questioned yesterday about the fact that you had applied and didn't get it. I don't question for a second that's why this happened, but the reason I bring it in is because you recognized, as an artist, how important it is to get some of that funding from your peers. You get turned down and you try to come back because you want the money, but you also want the respect that comes from that. That's what causes me such concern. It's that principle of respect.

You've said in a couple of your statements and you've said it in the House, you've said that we know best, that this is in the best interest of the arts and culture community. Quite frankly, the days should be gone when you, as minister - not you as an artist, but you as minister - decide what's right and what's wrong for that community.

What has happened, it's a mug's game, it's a circle that never opens because you just keep cutting them back, cutting them back and cutting them back, while at the same time talking about expanding their responsibilities. So, the Arts Council wants to deliver better programs, be more responsive to the community, so they have to maintain a certain critical mass and I think you would agree that the critical mass was pretty basic. You were also talking to them about taking on the big four, so they had to have some capacity to be able to administer that responsibility, but then all of a sudden you decide, no, you're costing us too much money and we don't want you anymore.

It flabbergasts me that you could, two things: number one, suggest that you're going to save much money, because I don't believe you're going to save much money this year or next year, and I will receive your figures and I will challenge those figures; and number two, that you could also say that somehow this is for the good of the arts and culture community.

Mr. Minister, you say on the one hand that you are doing what you believe is in the best interests of the arts and culture community, but then the arts and culture community in the Province of Nova Scotia lines up from one end to the other, a hundred organizations have come out against this decision, hundreds and thousands of people in that sector have come out against this decision. Notable individuals in this sector who you have given awards to are not opposing this for political reasons, but are opposing it as members of the arts and culture community who recognize the decision for what it is; it's a wrong-headed decision. The return to the government, supposedly, in dollars, is not anywhere near what the damage is that's being caused to the sector itself.

[Page 521]

Now, what do you say to them? What do you say to all these people? What does your government say to the people in the arts and culture sector who are telling you that this was the wrong thing to do?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, just before you proceed, an item of clarification. For everyone's information, quorum in the House has been relaxed by all-Party agreement with regard to the volunteer awards. Until we are advised otherwise, normally this room would require a quorum of six government members; however, depending on who's going to the event, the numbers may alter and that won't change the time. We have approximately 15 minutes remaining in the NDP's time.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, the member for Halifax Atlantic raised some good points, and I want to say too that we have also had many phone calls with regard to agreeing with the direction that we have taken.

MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Any of them sign any letters or put their names down? Just curious.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We have received e-mails and letters, yes. Again, you talk about it simply by the government saving money, but don't forget, as I mentioned, these dollars are going back to the arts and culture community.

What people are saying to me, and this is not just in the last couple of months or the last year and I have tried to make an attempt to get around as much as possible and to have discussions and I am a firm believer that having discussions, when you go into small communities throughout this province, with an artist or someone involved with the tourism sector or whatever the case may be, hearing from that individual, there is great value in that - people did say they believe in the programs, in the peer assessment process, and they said they would like to see more money; of course, more investment.

[10:30 a.m.]

Those are three key components that were used in making this decision. Now we can disagree on the philosophy on the arm's-length and I can indicate - and as you mentioned that I would probably indicate - that as someone who knows, whose only job at one time for a while was as a musician, that the investment we make in culture is extremely important, that we need to get as many dollars as possible to those people. For me to sit here and say it's all right that we spent some $400,000 last year on administration - I believe it was shortly under $400,000, roughly around the $400,000 mark - I believe that we need to get more dollars in the hands of those people and less dollars into duplication of administration. Now, that's a belief that I have. I want to see those dollars get to the people on the front lines. That was a key part in making the decision.

[Page 522]

Now, I realize, as I mentioned before, this is a very passionate issue for people. If you are an artist or a musician, next month, as an example - I want to mention that the applications that came in were being treated through the process and now are going through the process so that we see as smooth a transition as possible - you will put your application in as you did last year. You will know that the opportunity is there, not by the minister making the decision on who gets it - and to be quite frank, I don't want to make the decision on which individual gets it and I don't think I should make that decision on which specific individual gets it.

You will have the same opportunity through the peer assessment process; it will not be the Government of Nova Scotia, it will not be the Cabinet nor the caucuses. That peer assessment model, we will make sure that is in place and, as I've said, it's going to be in place through the new Arts and Culture Council to ensure that those applying know that it will be based on, as you mentioned, the creative excellence of that work. So, as an individual, as an example, as I mentioned, if you apply this upcoming year you will have the opportunity through the peer assessment process.

Something that I've felt over the years - and I'm sure it's the same in every Party, as well - is that there are often varying views, even around this province, in support of culture and the arts. As I mentioned before I believe that those investments are important and are key. For too long - and perhaps the line has gotten stronger - government and the arts and culture sector in many respects have been on opposite sides of the fence.

You talk about other jurisdictions in Canada. I believe we have an opportunity through this, in working with the new council, to put a model that every province across this country will take a look at and say, listen, that's an interesting model, and perhaps they won't even look at it at all. That's fair as well. I have actually spoken to some of the ministers already across the country with respect to some of the changes we are going through and given them a bit more information than they had previously. They are quite interested in seeing what model comes forward. I believe there is an opportunity for a real partnership here between the arts and cultural community and our division within culture to be working together.

I realize that the last few weeks have been difficult for people. I also believe in the long term that the model going forward will be a good, solid model, especially when taking a look at the individuals we have involved in this transition team. I believe they're very well respected individuals across this province and I believe the new council, when it's put in place, will be one that will represent the artistic community across the province.

MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: I say this with the deepest respect, but what land are you living in? With all due respect, you talk about how we're going to develop a great partnership, well, you've just kicked the arts and culture sector in the Province of Nova

[Page 523]

Scotia in the teeth. They've responded: we don't like the way we've been treated, we don't like the way this has happened, why have you done this to us? They've been outraged.

You, independently, on the basis of I don't know what - I've not seen a plan - are going to go your own way in terms of what else is happening across the country. Nova Scotia finally gets caught up with what's going on in the rest of the country and undoubtedly will be in a position to develop, as a result of the activities and the partnership that you talk about, to develop a model that will be unique and will be even more progressive than happens in any other jurisdiction in this country. But how can you expect to come along, kick the slats out from underneath these people, and then have them work with you? I don't understand it.

Again, it's this patronizing, patriarchal-based attitude that we know best. It doesn't matter that you're an artist, I'm sorry, but you're a Minister of the Crown, you're carrying out government policy. What you have done is you have turned back relations with this community. Given the economics of that sector, given what people like yourself - before you got into this high-paying job - face, if there was a sense from people in that community that there was going to be more money to distribute, don't you think they would be coming to you and saying, right on, Rodney, you got it baby; don't you think they would be? They're not. Why do you think that is?

I say to all government members, don't you hear what's going on? Just because your minister plays the fiddle - and I say that with respect - it doesn't mean that he knows what's best for other people who play musical instruments. His job and your job as government members and our job as members of this Legislature and ultimately, in particular, your job as minister, is to listen to what's being said. You've made a decision, you've gotten a reaction to that decision. In the face of you saying, we think this is best for you, people are saying, wrong, it's not best for us. We know what's best for us, or we have a pretty good idea is what people are saying. Women and men by the hundreds and thousands across the province involved in the arts and culture sector are saying they have a pretty good idea of what's best for them, and this ain't it.

It's a small part of their lives as performers, as performing artists, as creators, as people who are generating to the very fibre of this province and their communities, this is all about partnership with the government and making a contribution to their province, making a contribution to the organization of arts and culture in the Province of Nova Scotia. That's what these people are giving you, giving me, giving us, their commitment, their partnership. By doing this, what you're doing is you are turning your back on these people, you are telling them that you don't want their help, you don't want their ideas, you don't want their commitment, you don't want their passion because you don't believe them, you don't trust them, you don't think they're up to it. That's wrong. Surely you can recognize that is wrong.

[Page 524]

You say you've gotten a few e-mails. I would like you to table those e-mails. I would like you to give us a list of the people who have called you - the artists, the people in the arts and culture sector. I would like the government members to table in this House a list of all of the people who have contacted you and said the minister is right on. Remember, there's no question that you are the minister and you have the responsibility and you're going to be held accountable to make decisions.

We have moved in a direction in this province where we have decided that with respect to the arts and culture sector, with respect to administering programs, we are going to allow that sector to do it with our assistance; not our guidance, necessarily, but with our assistance, as a partnership. That's what you've said. That's what we've said. To now turn around and say that all bets are off, we're going the other way, we're going back to the way it used to be, that's wrong, it's disrespectful. I believe that ultimately it's damaging to what this sector is able to do and the ability of any government to respond.

I understand my time is pretty much up, but the sad thing is that as a result of the decision that you made two months ago, you have created such an uproar in this community, such upset, such controversy, that people are distracted to the point where it's hard for them to focus on much else because they are outraged with the way they've been treated by you and your government. I suggest that you have to take some time to reconsider this decision and reinstate the Arts Council. Later, Mr. Chairman, we will talk about you absconding with the endowment fund and what you've done with the McConnell Family Foundation contribution. That will be for another intervention. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: With everyone's concurrence, we're just going to take a break for about three minutes, if that's all right? Thank you.

[10:44 a.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

[10:50 a.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Lunenburg West.

MR. DONALD DOWNE: Mr. Minister, staff, I am going to carry on with regard to the issues, specifically, with the Arts Council. You continually talk about savings, you talk about administrative savings, and quite frankly your department was set up by your government, taken out of Tourism and Education, as an administrative body, separate and above, in fact, increasing the cost of government in effect because you moved it from other departments, for the purpose of administering tourism and cultural activities in the Province of Nova Scotia. Now you're saying that this administrative construct issue is that you're trying to save money. Well, you were set up for the purpose of delivery of those programs, and you're almost talking against your own government's philosophy when it set it up in the first place.

[Page 525]

There's a lot of bitterness throughout the community. Yesterday I saw people in the audience, clearly people who I would never have expected to come up to a rally, who were there because they feel that you have basically taken over the integrity of the arts community and the council by setting up this new body for what is perceived to be no more than your political will and reducing the arm's-length approach, which is very frustrating to a lot of people.

I want to walk through a few things with you to try to determine this economic analysis and also what brought this to the forefront. In 1995, 1996, after 20 years of working, a unanimous decision when the legislation was brought in for the Arts Council by all three Parties, yours included, that an arm's-length approach was the right way to go. Your government was quick to congratulate and support the initiative. Now, just a few short years later, you, in our view and in the arts community's view, are tearing it apart. When did you first realize, Mr. Minister, that the Arts Council was not, in your view, run as efficiently as it could be?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I can speak to the last few months, in the budgetary process, and really taking a look at the priorities of the department, both in Tourism and Culture and with my other responsibilities. I just want to roll back to what you said earlier, about when we first formed government. We certainly did make some changes with respect to the number of departments in government, and quite clearly put it forward in 1999 that we would set up a separate department. As such, we moved forward on that. We have a smaller Cabinet than any other in previous history of the province, as well.

In moving forward on the decision, again, as I mentioned earlier in my remarks, we had to take a look at getting our financial house in order. Of course, in any decision, as I know you as a former Finance Minister know probably all too well, there are decisions which have to be made when you're going through the process. The decision that we have taken, that I've taken and the government has taken, is one that is enabling the programs to continue, is enabling the peer assessment process to continue, and what I see as duplication in many areas, we are able to use those dollars and get them to those individuals within the arts and cultural community across this province for investment.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, the question is, how long ago did you find out that all of a sudden this Arts Council in your view was not administering the dollars as efficiently as it should be? It has been in the last two months or three months?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No, what I'm saying is that in each year, as you know, going through the business planning process, you take a look at where the investments are being made and you have to make some decisions. The decision with respect to this change officially came about during the past couple of months. It went through Executive Council in making this decision. It was part of the process. Don't forget, we've also gone through a process within our Culture Division, a structural change and a program change.

[Page 526]

We've gone through a fairly significant change, and the reason why was because people didn't have access to programs, people didn't have the knowledge of what programs were even available. It's something that before getting into politics I was fairly critical about in my own area, feeling that we could never find out what was available, what programs were available, what were the deadlines, where are the applications. I can tell you that that is something I felt very strongly about coming into government, making sure people knew the information. As I mentioned earlier, I applauded your government for setting up that peer assessment model, but I also was critical with respect to not knowing what programs were available for Nova Scotians.

In the business planning process and in the budgetary process, during the last few months leading up to the budget, this was in front of the Executive Council, and the Executive Council made the decision to move forward.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, so what you're telling me here is that you sat down around the Cabinet table when you were going through the budget process, and the Minister of Finance said this is your budget target, now you cut to make it fit, and you decided that the Arts Council was one area that you think you can cut and roll it under your wing to save money. If that's not the case, then what is the case for making the change? You're telling me two different things in your answers. Is it because of peer review? If it's peer review, then it's based on substantive cost analysis. I asked for that yesterday, I have asked you before about it. I want it now. Your staff is here, so I want that information now, factually, of why you made that decision. Or was it simply a matter of the fact that the Minister of Finance gave you a target, and you have to cut it to make it work?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As you know, as a former Finance Minister . . .

MR. DOWNE: I know very well, as a former Finance Minister, the process. I'm asking you the question, you're telling me three months ago that you found out that the system doesn't work?

MR. CHAIRMAN: If we're going to maintain decorum here, can we ask a question and then allow it to be answered.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As I was saying, I was simply going to say, as you know, as a Finance Minister, you do provide a target to each department. In looking at the target that we had available for the upcoming year and taking a look at each program, and as I mentioned we have done so because we felt there was a lot of needed change because of the history, where people didn't have access to programs and didn't have what I believe was the opportunity to apply for many programs. We went through that process, as you are well aware, and I and my staff, ultimately - I mentioned the Executive Council because it did come to Executive Council following the

[Page 527]

process of getting to that point - took a look, and I saw the opportunity, there was duplication there.

During the consultation process, there were things heard. I mentioned them earlier and you mentioned them, about dollars getting out to the people who are putting applications in. That's one of the things people said, we want more dollars. Well, as a government we had to get our fiscal house in order, which we have done by balancing the budget, but also to see where there's duplication, to eliminate as much of that duplication as possible, but to ensure that the programs are in place.

As I mentioned earlier to the member for Halifax Atlantic, we see the same programs in place, there are peer assessment models that are going to be in place and are in place, and the fact that we're actually being more inclusive in our other programs. If it was simply a political exercise, we wouldn't have put forward, with respect to the new Arts and Culture Council model, that peer assessment process. I stated earlier that it's a process I feel very strongly about. I know your government felt very strongly about, and each Party felt strongly about, when the decision to set up the original Nova Scotia Arts Council was taken. We felt strongly at that time about the process of individuals having the opportunity to evaluate their peers and we will continue that process. In fact, we're expanding that process.

[11:00 a.m.]

I believe fundamentally that as a member of the Executive Council and being responsible for those dollars with respect to the taxpayers, that I have a responsibility to ensure that the dollars that we have available are getting out to those across this province. I feel this was the right direction for getting those dollars out to those involved in the arts and culture sector. I'm sure we can disagree on philosophies of how that should be done and that's fair. I believe at the end of the day, as was mentioned by the member for Halifax Atlantic, the taxpayers of this province will make a decision in the next general election and if it's the plan of whatever particular Party they want to see move forward, then they have the right to do so. I think we've clearly outlined that we do not want to see that duplication. We want to see those dollars getting into the hands of the people across this province.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, I have a number of questions and I hope you're not going to give a speech each time you give an answer. What I'm hearing from you, number one, this is an OIC decision. So you can't hide behind an OIC decision. You're the minister who brought the proposal to Cabinet. Cabinet agreed with you. So, yes, John Hamm and the whole crowd of you are in agreement that the Arts Council should have been cut. That's the first thing you admitted. Number two is that it was a financial issue because you're doing peer review and you say that it's not efficiently run. Have you ever gone back - and you just came to this realization in the last few months, from what you said - to try to work with the Nova Scotia Arts Council to find ways to be more efficient, if that is the case that you're basing your decision on? Just yes or no.

[Page 528]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, it's not simply yes or no and I would like the opportunity to respond, if that might be my opportunity. Certainly, there were discussions between staff within my division and staff, specifically the executive director, just regarding various issues, regarding the programs that we offer through the Culture Division and then the programs that were offered through the Nova Scotia Arts Council and that relationship and on moving forward in the future. I had the opportunity to meet with the council, as was mentioned, back in January and had some discussion on various items. Again, it's simply not a matter of - certainly we're going through a change. The new council, as I mentioned, will have the same opportunity for programs with those dollars not being spent on duplication, but getting into the hands of people. I certainly think that's important.

I had the opportunity last week to meet with the Inverness County Council of the Arts in my own area. They had concerns and they had questions. I met with them last Friday and went through the new model and some of the changes that were taking place and had a very good discussion. Once we sat down and went through it, I believe that the feeling coming away from the meeting was one that was a change. As one person mentioned to me, that's a change in the government's model somewhat, but we will still have the same opportunity through programs and peer assessment. They were quite happy to hear that. Once going through it, they had an understanding that this would be beneficial to that organization and, hopefully, individuals in various areas around the province.

MR. DOWNE: It's great that you had a chance to talk to a group a little while ago, but you didn't have the nerve to go out and talk to the group that was here yesterday that wanted to have some answers to questions very specifically about the Arts Council, Mr. Minister. The proof that I've asked for repeatedly, I will ask that that proof of cost savings be tabled today. Obviously, if you've made a decision, you went to Cabinet, you had to go through the Treasury Board, you had to prove where the cost savings would be and I want to see them.

I want to know what the severance allocations were for the people you let go. I want to know what you've done about the rent obligations that were there. I want to know about whether or not new staff are going to be hired in your department to pick up the workload. I want to know what the staff currently there were doing before then. I want that analysis done because you made a decision that has torn the heart and soul out of the Nova Scotia arts community based on something, and you're saying it's economics. I want to know what those economic analyses are if you've made that decision, or maybe you had another political agenda. So I asked yesterday and I'm asking again today, will you provide that information to this group today, yes or no?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As I indicated to the member for Halifax Atlantic, I will provide that information and it will be based on audited statements that were used. I have no problem providing that. I don't have the full information on me today and understand too, as well, we're still going through a transition process with respect to the

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staff. I mentioned within our model in the Culture Division that we have two FTs available there and then we will have an additional FT that will come onstream and we will be able to deliver these programs and provide the administrative support for them.

I indicated my willingness to provide that information and to provide it in its full detail for the member and for all members of the House. I will do that on a future day. There are still discussions with regard to various organizations with respect to that transition process, but I can indicate, quite clearly, that during the sitting and as soon as possible that I will provide the full details. I want to ensure that the member does have the full details, as I know he would like to have.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, we are looking for the proof of why you made this mistake in your career. In the last two years, you've reduced the budget of the Arts Council. Clearly, you must have realized over those reductions that if you're going to cut the funding for it, it's going to have some implication. During that time, had you ever met with the Arts Council to talk about how you could make administrative savings so that the Arts Council could maintain its arm's-length integrity and go forward? You've been the minister now for three years, almost.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: During the last couple of years, I had the opportunity to have discussions with the executive director, with the chairman. We talked about a variety of items. We talked about everything from going through with respect to programming, talked about the peer assessment model and had discussions on a variety of items.

In fact, you're right, the first year we came into government, we reduced the funding at the Arts Council and this year we indicated a 5 per cent reduction, a $65,000 reduction, much like the federal government did in the early 1990s to get their financial house in order. They made some decisions and made reductions in key areas and then balanced the books for the country and then were able to make investments. I see getting the financial house of the province in order is very important and I'm sure the member would agree that by balancing the books of this province, it will enable us to make future investment in areas like culture. I believe that there will be future opportunities for investment. I would hope, and I will certainly encourage my colleague, the Finance Minister, to make those investments.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, I hope you play the fiddle as well as you rag the puck because you're not impressing anybody here by not trying to answer these questions. I have a list of questions and I'm asking for straightforward answers. They're not complicated questions. I think you can understand them and they deserve just a simple response because there's a logic behind them.

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You mentioned the federal government. It's interesting that there are thousands of artists and citizens throughout all of Canada and throughout the world that have maintained an arm's-length body to deal with the arts community. You know, in Nova Scotia we fought for 20 years to have it brought forward. It's supported by organizations throughout the province. The arts councils are protected from political interference in Canada, as you know, and they're protected in Australia, New Zealand and much of Europe.

Canada, a long time ago, realized that the arts and media organizations such as the Canadian Arts Council, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the National Film Board, should be at arm's-length of government. Now, it didn't matter. I mean they had to go through all sorts of Mulroney disasters and they had to deal with the financial problems of the country and state, but they didn't bring it back into a political realm to find a solution. They left it as an arm's-length body. So don't use that argument from a national perspective. You can still deal with this on a provincial perspective and keep it arm's-length and still be fiscally responsible. You haven't even sat down and tried to work with the community to find solutions. The Nova Scotia Arts Council always operated in a financially and administratively responsible manner. Is that true, yes or no?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Last year, as I mentioned - and I will provide that audited statement for the member - $424,655 was spent between program delivery and administration. There were more dollars spent on administering funding than there was that got into the hands of artists through the individual programs. As I mentioned, we went through the process. We felt that there was duplication, that those dollars could get into the hands of the people applying for various programs, and made the decision that those dollars should be spent on people and not simply on administration. That was the decision of the Executive Council. It's one that I strongly support and, you know, we can argue the philosophy behind the decision and I'm sure that, although we may share similar philosophies on some issues with respect to this decision, with respect to programs and peer assessment, we vary on some other parts of it.

MR. DOWNE: Don't hide behind the OIC. This is a Rodney MacDonald decision and it was supported by your colleagues and you sold them but you haven't sold anybody else. To answer the question that I asked, they filed three-year plans. In those plans they provided budgets, audited financial statements to you, and in every one of those budgets that they presented to you they were in the black. They were never in deficit. Your department has had all that information. Yet when they brought out their three-year plan, you never sat down and said, by the way, we think we can make some savings in administration, let's work together to try to find a solution.

What you did is you sent a bunch of security guards from DOTPW, Department of Transportation and Public Works, down to their office, locked the doors, gave the people their pink slips, and made sure that all the incoming calls were redirected. Is that what the OIC agreement was? Is that what the Cabinet decision was, that we are going to do a coup

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on the Arts Council and we're going to come in - it's almost as if there was criminal activity going on here - and overpower the Arts Council and take that facility over? Is there any reason why, Mr. Minister, you thought that was the way you should have dealt with the Nova Scotia Arts Council instead of simply sitting down and talking to them as the minister responsible? Why would you use that tactic?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: First of all, I would like to say that you're talking about the staff and there's no doubt, this is a difficult process and it's a difficult process on staff.

MR. DOWNE: Locking the doors and bringing in security guards is . . .

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As I mentioned, there are three staff within our division at present working with us through this transition process. You mentioned about the day the decision was made and there's no doubt that going through that change and going through that transition is not easy. We also have the responsibility, as I mentioned earlier, to ensure that assets of the Province of Nova Scotia are secured as well.

[11:15 a.m.]

MR. DOWNE: Do you think they're going to rob the place? Do you think they're going to go in and rob the place?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Again, as I mentioned, there are three staff still presently within the division working with us on the transition process and we will continue in that process to ensure that the process is done as smoothly as possible for the people, the clients, the people across this province in that process, to ensure that we avoid as much duplication as possible, to make sure that the dollars that we spend as a province and as the taxpayers' spend are simply not being spent on duplication but on people.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, you know I don't think anybody in Nova Scotia would feel that the Arts Council should have been treated the way they've been treated, going in and locking up and doing the things which you did, with security guards and all that. I think it was a little bit overpowering and a little bit - well, very much an absolute insult to the community and a lack of respect for the people who have been for the last six-plus years doing a phenomenal job and was supported by a number of organizations.

You know, when you think about the Atlantic Federation of Musicians, the Atlantic Theatre Festival, the Black Loyalist Heritage Society, the Canadian Actors' Equity Association, Canadian Arts Presenters Association, the Labour Congress, the Coastal Communities Network, Dance Nova Scotia, you know, the list goes on and on and on in this province, that says to you that you're wrong, that you've made a dumb decision; you've made a decision that doesn't make sense.

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If it's a fiscal matter, then why didn't you at least have the courtesy to work with the community to find a way to bridge that issue? You've got staff. You could second or whatever it is you needed to do, but leave it at arm's-length. Leave it with the integrity that it was set up to have, leave it so that the artistic community has the freedom to go forward and realize that their applications are not going to be massaged by you or by some of your political friends or whatever. They want that integrity, they want that independence and you have now taken that away. Mr. Minister, why have you for the last two-plus years dragged your proverbial feet on reappointing people to the Arts Council unless you had a plan two years ago to dismantle the Nova Scotia Arts Council?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: In fact, when the decision was taken, there were 11 out of 15, I believe, positions that were filled on the council at that time, and certainly it was something that we as a division were looking at to see how we could expedite that process in a quicker manner, although I do also feel that we have a responsibility to ensure that that process does go as quickly as possible, that the quorum was there with the 11 out of 15 members for the previous council when the decision to make a change was taking place.

MR. DOWNE: You know, Mr. Minister, you have a responsibility to get your names in and push them through the process to make sure that the complement is filled. You can't blame anybody but yourself for not filling those positions and the council was asking you why you weren't filling those positions and the applications that had been made to you time and time again, you know, why was it that you were so reluctant to take the industry, the community's names forward? Was it because you wanted to pick individuals yourself? Did you have some special friends in your constituency or some politically-aligned individuals you wanted to put on there?

Every other minister appoints people. I sat on the Human Resources Committee. Nobody else had as many problems as you, you know, and they have got a multitude of portfolios to look after. You've got supposedly the easiest workload of any minister in Cabinet and yet you couldn't get those people appointed. Were you too weak in Cabinet or was it that you didn't want them appointed? What was the problem? Why didn't you appoint them?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable member, we are speaking to the estimates.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I guess weakness is in the eye of the beholder and I guess you could say that we could be weak as a province and not balance our books, or we could be strong and balance our books as well. It's certainly something that we, as a government, have confronted and I believe we have done a good job.

As I mentioned, there were 11 out of 15 members in the Arts Council, there was a quorum and we were moving forward with respect to that process. I will agree with the member that perhaps we should have been quicker with respect to that process, and as the

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minister responsible, that is my responsibility and if the process was not being expedited quickly enough, then of course it falls on the minister's shoulders.

MR. DOWNE: We've established the fact that you've dragged your feet for the last number of years on the appointments of individuals to the board. Secondly, you went out and did a public consultation. How long did that public consultation take?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The public consultation started in mid-February, I believe, about six weeks.

MR. DOWNE: During that six-week period - mid-February, so you would have been starting your negotiations on your budget with the Minister of Finance already; you would have started probably in November, December, January - was there ever in that public consultation anybody saying that the arm's-length integrity of the Nova Scotia Arts Council should be dismantled? Was there anybody who recommended that?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As I mentioned earlier, I made comments that people were indicating that they believed in the programs that were administered through the Arts Council. But don't forget that the consultation process was a process that I indicated last summer when we were putting our new programs in place that we would go out and talk about our new programs and talk about the potential for these advisory councils. We didn't go forward on the advisory councils because people indicated they didn't want to see them, people wanted to see that peer assessment model. People indicated that they wanted to see more dollars and less on duplication and wanted to have the opportunities to apply for programs not only within the Arts Council, but also within our own division to get a better opportunity to hear more about those programs.

We're going to be putting a report out, I believe it's next month. We indicated as well through the consultation process that a report of the consultation process would be made available. I will table that report once it's all pulled together in this coming month, during the sitting of the House. I will make it available to all members.

MR. DOWNE: So the answer is that nobody suggested to gut the Nova Scotia Arts Council, to destroy the integrity of the Nova Scotia Arts Council by being arm's-length of government; nobody suggested that to you?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As I mentioned . . .

MR. DOWNE: You can just say yes or no.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: . . . the integrity that people wanted to see was in programs. They wanted to ensure the integrity of the peer assessment process and they wanted to ensure that more dollars were getting into the hands of the people and not

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administration. Those are the very things that we are seeing with respect to the new Arts and Culture Council, that we will see when it's put in place, as our transition team moves forward on that.

MR. DOWNE: I guess this report's going to come out after the vote on the budget, which by then the Nova Scotia Arts Council, as we've known it, will be gone unless you wake up to the realization that the arm's-length integrity of that council is better than what you're trying to sell to Nova Scotians right now.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The report, as I mentioned, will come out next month, in May, and we're putting it together now because . . .

MR. DOWNE: The budget will be voted on by then.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: . . . obviously there's a lot of input during that process. As I mentioned, I will table it in the House of Assembly, the member has my assurance of that.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, you're also responsible for Sport and Recreation as well?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes.

MR. DOWNE: What does it cost you to administer grants for those programs? And do you have a peer review process involved with that?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: There is not a peer assessment process. There is a process within the Sport and Recreation Commission as was done by the previous government. We continued with a similar model of working with the various organizations available in Sport and Recreation, whether it's Sport Nova Scotia or Recreation Nova Scotia and working with them, with what dollars we have available, with various organizations. It's the exact same process, in fact, as with the previous government and working with each organization, not only for one year, but also putting a process in place as was done - a cycle. If memory serves me correctly, it's either a three- or four-year cycle.

I don't know if you're going to ask many questions about sport and rec, but I may have a staff person join me at the table.

MR. DOWNE: My question would be if staff would be able to provide - Sport and Recreation has done an excellent job, I'm very supportive of the people and what they do. I just want to know what the comparative numbers are. We're not comparing apples and apples here, by the way. If they had to deal with the whole issue of the peer assessment process, I would dare say that the administrative costs of that program would be substantially

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higher. That's the point I wanted to make so you're not comparing - you know, when you're comparing savings, I don't see that.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I won't talk too long. I want to agree with the member that you're dealing with a different program delivery in each situation. As you know, the regional people do a fine job across this province in those various programs.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, under this new proposed make-up of the council, you will have more power to direct the direction of dollars and the type of art activity you would like to see fostered in the province. Certainly, it won't be under a separate arm's-length body of the community, it will be under a controlled mechanism. Are you trying, as Minister of Tourism, to tailor the arts development grants program to match your strategy on tourism?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No. During the last number of weeks, many people have indicated that this change is simply to gear these tourism dollars and we're going to be working with the transition team that's in place in putting forward that new Arts and Culture Council. It's simply not a matter of doing that. I know that there were strong feelings with regard to the creative side of the programming that was available. It's certainly something that has to be maintained in the new model. We will be working with the transition team with respect to the programs already in existence along with two other programs which were administered through the department: cultural activities and, as well, in the Art Bank Purchase Program. It's certainly not simply gearing it towards tourism.

MR. DOWNE: It is very possible, under this new framework that you're talking about, that the grants, the seed money, the money that you hand out that's so important to the communities, could very well be tailored to one aspect more so than others. As a part of the arts community, we're talking about the creativity of a number of disciplines. We're talking about the freedom of expression, we're talking about the mosaic of aspects of our cultural identity as Nova Scotians, as Canadians, and it is very clear that where the community does not have the controlling ability of where they go, that means that you as the minister and as a government then in fact do have the ability to control where those dollars go and could very well be manipulated to tie into a four-month cultural season, and then that's it.

[11:30 a.m.]

I think there's a legitimate concern that that could very well be a reality, and I would like to know what mechanisms you are going to put in place to make sure that doesn't happen, and that the freedom of expression, in fact, will be continued. I want to know what you're going to do to guarantee that to the community.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As the member mentioned, there is a mosaic of a variety of disciplines across the province with respect to arts and people and the creative process and how important that is, and how there's a variety of individual expressions of

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their creativeness throughout this province in a variety of disciplines, whether it's in the visual arts or whether it's in music or whether it's in theatre, or whatever the case might be. In working with the new transition team, the opportunity for the cross-section will be maintained. That is something we will be working very closely with the transition team, and with the new council when it's put in place, to ensure that those opportunities are there.

Certainly in the change process, we wouldn't want to lose that. I know how valuable that is. We're certainly not going to focus on just the visual arts or just focus on one specific item. I think you have to ensure that those who are involved in the arts and the cultural community have that opportunity to apply for things that are within the realm of their creative works, whatever they may be.

MR. DOWNE: I don't know how many people trust you on that, not to be disrespectful to you personally, but after what has gone on, locking doors and security guards and shutting down and not consulting and not trying to find a solution as a minister, not trying to work with the council to find a solution to maintain its arm's-length, I think it's going to be a big pill for some people to swallow, to think that you're not going to be able to manipulate that process, and the fact that you dragged your feet on appointments of individuals, and the list goes on and on.

I believe there has been a plan. I believe you have had a long-term plan on this issue. I think your plan is now being brought forward. That plan is like an onion, the more you peel it, the stronger it gets and the more you start to cry. (Laughter) That's what we're starting to see happen right here. It's a sad commentary on your ministry at this point. Have you ever personally tried to influence who sat on the Arts Council, ever?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As the minister responsible, I have an obligation to sign off on the names put forth, and have an obligation to then take them to the Executive Council and then to Human Resources. If the member is indicating that I simply indicated that you should put so and so on the council, that I have not.

MR. DOWNE: So you have never tried to influence who sat on that council?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I guess that's kind of a very broad question.

MR. DOWNE: It's not broad. Have you ever tried to influence, to have a certain person on the Arts Council?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No.

MR. DOWNE: Have you ever tried to influence the process to not allow an individual to go on the Arts Council?

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MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The process put in place with respect to . . .

MR. DOWNE: Have you rejected names? I should rephrase that, excuse me, have you ever rejected a name that came forward by the arts community that would go forward for an appointment?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Through the process, there were names provided to me that didn't continue to move forward. I don't recall if it stopped before the Executive Council or stopped before myself. Yes, there were names put forward to me, and under my authority as minister those names either go forward to Cabinet or they don't, the ones that went through the process.

MR. DOWNE: In all of what you've just done here, the answer is yes.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, as I indicated there was an occasion where there were names put forward to me, and not all the names went forward to the Executive Council. I must admit right now, off-hand I don't recall if those names all went forward to the Executive Council and didn't get through there or if they didn't get to the Executive Council. I believe that it was before they got to the Executive Council.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, you keep trying to bring up OIC, you're trying to put the blame over to Cabinet. You're the minister here, and no matter how you want to try to pass it off to that Minister of Finance or that Minister of Justice or that Premier, they are wearing it as it is anyway. Ultimately you are the one who fights for the portfolio you're responsible for. In fighting for that portfolio, part of that responsibility is maintaining the integrity of the Arts Council that was brought in and supported by your government.

Not being able to bring those names forward because it didn't meet somebody's acid test around the Cabinet shows how politically motivated this process that you're bringing in now will truly be. It will be a process of which Cabinet Ministers will say - and you - this board will be made up of PC1, PC2, PC3, and we will now control what's going on in the arts community. That's what you're admitting to here today.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No, what I'm saying is that, as the member knows, and I'm sure the member is not going to sit here and tell me that every name that was ever provided to him through government - perhaps he wants to share that with us - was put through to the Executive Council. Perhaps that was the case under the previous administration, I can't answer that because I wasn't in the Executive Council then. Through the process, as was set up by the previous government, that process was put in place with respect to the sign-off of the minister, and then to move forward to the Executive Council and then to Human Resources. That process was put in place and followed as it was put in place.

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MR. DOWNE: Has the minister ever asked that the council submit several names to positions to the board instead of the normal process?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: If you mean in the case where there might be four positions, asking for additional names, yes.

MR. DOWNE: I've asked about the savings here a couple of times, Mr. Minister. Just to refresh me, you will provide the detail, and I'm talking about . . .

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will make sure that you get an audited statement.

MR. DOWNE: No, I'm talking about the detail analysis that you did to justify the decision you made, because you're saying it's based on cost savings. That means the detail of that. I'm fully aware of the cost-benefit analysis, how that's done. That's what I'm asking for, because that's what you're saying the decision is based on.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will make sure that the member has a statement, as will all members of the House, showing the costs related to this change and to the savings in the administrative component. I have no problem doing that, and I will make sure every member of the House can obtain that.

MR. DOWNE: What's the budget for the new council?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The budget for the new council, specifically with respect to programs or just overall?

MR. DOWNE: Both.

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It would have been $1.176 million this year, I believe. There will be, because it's within the framework as well, an additional $100,000, as I mentioned. It was about $370,000 for - we're adding up some numbers here for the member because the new council will be involved in two other programs: both the Cultural Activities Program and the Art Bank Purchase Program. We're just adding some of that up now, so I will give you the figure in a moment.

MR. DOWNE: You and I will be back together again later on today so maybe staff can analyze . . .

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I can provide that later, just to give you a good handle on it.

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MR. DOWNE: Without knowing the answers to the costs here, I guess, Mr. Minister, people are wondering, will there be a peer assessment body established under the new structure?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes.

MR. DOWNE: Will they be paid?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The intention, of course - we're going to be working with the new transition team on that - would be to provide the expenses for the individuals with respect to being involved in that process, as is done in many agencies, boards and commissions.

MR. DOWNE: So that new structure is going to have x number of staff that are currently in your department and you've costed those out and you're going to have the peer assessment body that will be paid. How many peer assessment bodies will be established around the province?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That's a question, to be quite honest with you, I don't have the number on that yet. That's something we're going to be working on with respect to the new transition team and with respect then to the new council. So I can't give you a figure off the top of my head, but I can tell you that, as you mentioned with the staffing, within the current model, we have two of those positions that are in the framework that we have already and there will be an additional staff person. We will ensure that we live within the target that we have set and that is something we will be working on because the new council may have some additional ideas with respect to how they're set up and perhaps they will use the exact model, but we will be working with them to ensure that the peer assessment model is in place.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, you mean to say that you're shutting down something that took 20 years to build, that has the respect and credibility of the industry in Nova Scotia and across this country, because you've done the economic analysis of that and you're putting up a body for the new system and you don't even know whether or not that new system is going to be more cost-effective or less cost-effective or even more effective in providing the quality of assessments throughout the province? It seems to me, Mr. Minister, that you don't have a plan of what you're doing here. You made a decision to shut down the Arts Council, for whatever reasons we haven't seen yet, and maybe it's because of the people on the council. Maybe it's something in the Cabinet discussions that made you feel that that was the way Cabinet wanted you to act. But the bottom line is, you don't have a plan of how you're going to go forward.

[Page 540]

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: With regard to how the peer assessment model is set up, I think it's important to be working with the new transition team and we're going to be setting up the new council and working within that process to ensure that we're doing that model in the most effective manner, while making sure that the peer assessment panels are of the quality that they should be. That is something we will be working on with the new council. As I said, people serving on those peer assessment panels will be provided with the expense of getting to the meetings and so on.

MR. DOWNE: Will there be organizations and individuals on the peer assessment committee or not?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That's something, obviously, that we will be working on with the transition team. I would expect in the peer assessment panels that we will see individuals who are with organizations involved in different creative disciplines, whether it's in music or visual arts or whatever the case might be. Of course, I think that would be expected.

MR. DOWNE: Mr. Minister, could you at least indicate today that you would want to have both on that peer assessment process? Will you confirm that there will be both on each one of those assessment groups?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Obviously, in working with the new transition team with respect to this, I believe it's important that we work with the transition team on that process. But as I said, you will see people from various organizations. You will see people from the creative disciplines who will be involved in those panels. I think that's important, especially if you want to see the best work possible and be given the opportunity to get that investment.

Mr. Chairman, if I might have another moment, a "Baker break", if that might be possible, for a moment. Is that okay with the member for Lunenburg West?

MR. DOWNE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If it's acceptable, then we will take a two-minute break.

[11:47 a.m. The subcommittee recessed.]

[11:50 a.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will reconvene and proceed with questions from the NDP caucus.

The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

[Page 541]

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Minister, we have a number of questions. Of course, in the limited time with the various responsibilities that you have, some will continue to revolve around this ongoing issue, unfortunately - I think you and I both know that this is not a personal thing - revolving around some of the credibility with a particular issue at hand. We have some other issues that we are going to bring up during the limited time that we have.

I want to share with you, first of all, that I am the father of a first-year student at NASCAD. She saw you on TV last night, and she knows her father is famous for comparisons, but I'm not going to compare you to Graham Townsend and I'm not going to compare you to Don Messer, but her comments were that if you are going to have a future in politics, why aren't you listening to these people? That's an impression which a young artist who has looked at other role models wants to continue.

I hear the good Minister of Economic Development go on at length about the Nova Scotia Business Inc. and arm's-length and we must not be directly involved in making decisions, and then of course we see that a board is created. Some of the members I don't necessarily agree with, but here is one member of your Cabinet, of the Premier's Cabinet saying these things, yet perception and reality in politics often become one and the same, and here you are as another minister who, from my perspective, is doing the exact opposite of what the Minister of Economic Development is about. What do you think of that? Am I off base with that particular line of thought?

MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I think that's a fair question actually. In fact I was thinking about it earlier, and thinking about some of the discussions that were held during the setting up of Nova Scotia Business Inc. and how members of the Opposition as well indicated that we didn't need that process, that in fact we shouldn't be putting that arm's-length process in place. I guess there are a variety of voices. I can only speak to what I'm responsible for.

I guess it's always interesting in politics to look at what is said, at times, during discussion, debates, and I am sure we can go back to Nova Scotia Business Inc. and see some of the comments made with regard to that. Perhaps I will do so at the end of the day, and take a look at some of the comments made by my Opposition colleagues as well. I do recall them indicating concerns about an arm's-length process as well, as I am sure you would agree with - perhaps not yourself - but I'm sure we can point to many examples where people disagreed with setting up an arm's-length process in making decisions.

MR. ESTABROOKS: You have a - and this is important to us in various other interest communities - reputation as a hands-on minister. For example, I've been asked, how come the Yarmouth arena would get that amount of money, or how come the Digby Wall of Fame would get that amount of money, yet the St. Margaret's Arena, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be in that particular - what shall I say? - line of contributions. The answer

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comes back, you have to have the ear of the minister. A comment on another one of your responsibilities.

The comparison that I'm coming to here is, are not some of the rumours and innuendoes surrounded with some other responsibilities that if you do have the ear of the minister in sports and rec, then you also now need the ear of the minister in arts and culture, because you as a hands-on minister are going to make sure that other particular interests are going to be looked at, because that's the innuendo here, that's the concern, the concern that this minister is going to meddle, this minister is going to have his arm right to the elbow in there making sure that his and his government's agenda gets assistance. That's a concern by people all over this province who, of course, are concerned