MADAM CHAIRMAN: The Subcommittee on Supply will now convene on the estimates of Business and Consumer Services.
The honourable member for Sackville-Cobequid, with 90 minutes left.
MR. JOHN HOLM: Madam Chairman, I would like to start off by reminding the minister of the commitment that he made a couple of days ago to provide some information on the list of programs to be terminated and those that are to be modified.
HON. NEIL LEBLANC: In talking about the list, I mentioned that I will take a look at the list that we are talking about, all the other programs. We mentioned three of them that were eliminated and I think the member recalls that we went through that. The other list which is the one that we are talking about, coming out of Priorities and Planning is the PAO, the internal review list that we have which lists all the different programs within the department.
Madam Chairman, that list that is coming out is going to be coming out through Priorities and Planning very shortly. It will be going through the different programs that we deliver within the Department of Business and Consumer Services and that list is basically the different programs that are here. I said in my opening comments that within the whole process we anticipated to be candid, that when we looked through them that we would have more programs totally eliminated, but what we have done to a greater extent is modify the ones that were there or trim some of the ones that were there that we felt could be done more efficiently. When we go through the estimates that are here, I am more than prepared to speak about any one of them that you want, but as for listing, the intention of that is going to come out through Priorities and Planning.
MR. HOLM: With the greatest respect to the minister, Madam Chairman, that answer I don't consider is a good enough answer. The minister last day had agreed that he would be providing a list of those programs that are going to be modified as well as the ones that are being eliminated and now what you are telling me is, gee whiz, if you can ferret it out, if you can find where we have different things tucked in here where things are going to be modified - these are your estimates and your estimates are based upon the programs and services that you are going to be delivering.
So if we are to have an understanding of how money is to be expended and where revenues are going to be generated, you have a responsibility, I would suggest, to tell us which of your programs that are currently being offered are going to be modified and which ones are going to be eliminated and I would go a step further and say if you have new programs that are going to be delivered, you have an obligation also to tell the people of this province, during your estimates, where that is being done. To do anything less than that, I would honestly say is contempt of this committee.
MR. LEBLANC: Madam Chairman, I disagree with the comments from the member for Sackville-Cobequid because if you look at what estimates is for, it is to basically go through the line items that are in the estimates. That is the way that this committee has always worked in the past. I know my staff has also mentioned to the member for Sackville-Cobequid that we have outlined in our Managing Change, which was an electronic bulletin that was sent to all our staff and he has indicated that he has a copy of that, the changes that we are doing within the Department of Business and Consumer Services. So to be candid, the vast majority of what was brought out at the PAO process is in this summary that is here and he is already in receipt of that.
Madam Chairman, I am more than prepared to go through any line item that is here in our estimates and give whatever detail the member for Sackville-Cobequid would require of us and do our best to make sure that he is fully versed.
MR. HOLM: Madam Chairman, as the minister said, things are summaries and I have even got right in front of me here something called Managing Change and a Q and A on the budget. In it, for example, it talks about 54 full-time positions being eliminated and as we learned last day when we were looking at the projected numbers, the numbers of persons or positions to be eliminated, your estimates are based upon estimate to estimate, not estimate to forecast. The two numbers are very different. It is not 54. It is a number considerably less than that and based on the forecast in one area it was actually going up.
Now, giving us a summary of broad strokes; I don't wish to draw comparisons, but I will; the Acting Minister of the Environment, at least when he came before this committee, had the courage to stand up and state how many inspectors would be eliminated, which offices were going to be closed. You are telling us that we have to figure out from each and every one of over 300 services and so on that are provided through your department?
MR. LEBLANC: No. There are not 300 services being provided through this department, I think it is 32.
MR. HOLM: You have services. You have different programs. You have different fees on all kinds of different items.
MR. LEBLANC: That is correct. I think the fees are listed in that very same sheet that you have outlined that says Managing Change and I would be more than prepared to go through any one . . .
MR. HOLM: I would like you to, first of all, tell me if any of the fee structures that are charged for anything that you provide, whether that be for birth certificates which come under your department, we know that drivers' tests fees are going up, and you are going to be charging $7.00 for the driver's manual that probably costs something like 50 cents to produce. So we know that there are certain money-making avenues built in, but you have many fees from birth certificates to marriage certificates, you name it, you have got it. Everything falls under your department. I would like to know a full listing of what they are right now and a full listing of what they will be at the end of this year. Are there any planned changes in any of them?
MR. LEBLANC: There are changes in the fees and we have indicated that before. (Interruption) Your turn will come up. Talking about details of revenue changes, here we have in the driver's test, taking the written test, right now there is no fee whatsoever for that. That will be changed to $10 per attempt. We are increasing the road test fee from $10 to $35.
The driver's abstract, that is something we announced last fall, but I will indicate it for the member's attention, that we have put a new online service for that, especially insurance companies that are looking for drivers' abstracts and trying to get information quickly so that they can give better service to their clients, has been increased to $15 per usage on that. That was in consultation with the insurance industry. The situation on that, walk-ins was $10 before. So that is something that they can have that information online if they so choose.
MR. HOLM: How much is that going to generate in revenue?
MR. LEBLANC: That will be another $450,000 this year just in that. (Interruption) Madam Chairman, I am not trying to be difficult, but . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would the member for Richmond please refrain from asking questions during . . .
MR. LEBLANC: The member for Sackville-Cobequid does have the floor and if the member for Richmond wants to ask questions after, I have no problems, but the proper protocol is to do one member at a time and if he has any questions, please note them and I will make sure that I answer them when he comes up.
We have changed the fees for insurance agents and that has been changed from $25 a year to $100 a year. That is in line with the national average of about $91. That is the licencing fee for insurance agents, and so forth. We do a lot of follow-up, if there are complaints and so forth, in the fees of administrating that. That is more in line with the proper cost recovery.
[10:30 a.m.]
MR. HOLM: How much is that going to generate?
MR. LEBLANC: That will generate $200,000 this year. The other one we are talking about is fuel dye. We have been paying for the dye to mark tax exempt fuel. That is an additional change that we have here, and that is a cost savings in this year of $75,000.
MR. HOLM: You say a cost savings, that is a $75,000 charge that is going to be passed on to . . .
MR. LEBLANC: Yes, basically we were paying for it, as it is now, we will not be paying for it, so it is a saving for us. The Fuel Tax Commission on wholesale fuel sales, we have been paying a commission to collectors of fuel tax. That is an increase in revenue of $360,000 to the province, per year. The reason we are moving away from that, especially in the past, before computerization, this process was labour intensive for industry. A lot of the taxes that the government used to collect, we used to pay a small commission to people to collect it because of the added book work that they have. The changes that we have moved into, with computerization, this is basically not a very difficult process, it doesn't encompass having more people on staff. We have basically moved away from that on that one.
MR. HOLM: Who did you pay the commission to before?
MR. LEBLANC: The wholesale distributors of fuel. They were basically getting a percentage back.
MR. HOLM: What percentage were they getting back?
MR. LEBLANC: I will make a note of that. That is a valid question, and I want to make sure I give you the right percentage. It wasn't very high, but rather than give you an incorrect number, I will make a note of that.
MR. HOLM: But whatever it is, that is an increased cost to those wholesalers of fuel taxes that they will undoubtedly therefore be factoring in as they are factoring the price that they are charging to the retailers, who in turn will be passing it on to the consumers.
MR. LEBLANC: That is a matter of debate. What the member is saying could be true. I think that the situation for ourselves is that we feel it will be absorbed there. As to whether or not that will translate into practice, there is only one way that we will find out, obviously, from experience. Our indication is that they have room to absorb it, but the member brings up a good concern. We are not going to know that until we have the experience. I agree that your comment is one that could be the case, but we feel that it can be absorbed and that is what we are hoping will happen.
MR. HOLM: Of course, you have been in business before, and you know that when increased costs come to the business, you normally pass those increased costs on to your customers.
MR. LEBLANC: The other one that we have is the Tobacco Tax Commission. The same thing, we have been paying the commission to collectors of tobacco tax, basically the wholesalers. We are looking at an increase in revenue of $100,000 annually. I don't know what the percentages are. Do you want to know what the percentages are for those other two things?
MR. HOLM: I would appreciate that.
MR. LEBLANC: We are talking about the Fuel Tax Commission and the Tobacco Tax Commission. I know that it is a relatively small percentage, but it is a valid question. The user fees in the driver's handbook, recovery will be $74,000 that we will recoup on that.
MR. HOLM: For the two of them?
MR. LEBLANC: That is just the driver's handbook. Which other two are you referring to?
MR. HOLM: You are charging now for the test?
MR. LEBLANC: The test itself, that is right. Two separate issues, one of which is the driver's handbook, the other one is the test. The big reason for that is that if you didn't charge for the book and you charged for the test - we are still having problems, last year we issued 32,000 books and 10,000 were taking the test. The book was free and as such what is going
on is that for a lot of people, if you don't pay for something and you lose it, you just go get another one. What we are trying to do is make sure we recover our costs on that, or that if people buy it they will use one rather than two or three.
MR. HOLM: That handbook, if you add $32,000 going out last year and they are going to cost $7.00 per book, that would work out to about $200,000-some odd. What are you projecting in revenue from selling handbooks?
MR. LEBLANC: It is $74,000.
MR. HOLM: Isn't that a tad low? Even if 10,000 took the test, that is $70,000 right there.
MR. LEBLANC: I agree, you pretty well have it in a nutshell. If 10,000 take the test and buy the book, we should have a recovery of $70,000. We are saying that our projections for this year are $74,000. We also have to keep in mind that our population base in this province is going down, and that could also have a factor. Our class sizes are getting smaller, and perhaps there could be fewer people writing the test. These projections come out of the department, but that is more in line with what we think. We are looking more in line of recovering our costs, and that is more in line with the amount of people writing the test. To be candid, for a lot of people, because they didn't have to pay for the books, the books weren't really being treated with the respect that they should be. That, of course, has added cost to the province.
MR. HOLM: Maybe there will be a job for entrepreneurs here, and the black market will spring up selling used driver's handbooks.
MR. LEBLANC: Could be. We will have to buy less in that case, and that will also save us some money.
MR. HOLM: It would be interesting to know what you pay for the driver's handbooks.
MR. LEBLANC: I will bring that up, as to what the cost is. The staff tells me it is basically recovery for it; it is cost recovery, we are not looking to make money on it.
MR. HOLM: Any others?
MR. LEBLANC: Those are the ones that are listed here.
MR. HOLM: Let me go through a few things then. Birth certificates?
MR. LEBLANC: No plans to change birth certificates.
MR. HOLM: That is an absolute, that there won't be any fee increases this year?
MR. LEBLANC: If there was it would be in here.
MR. HOLM: How about anything dealing with death certificates?
MR. LEBLANC: No plans.
MR. HOLM: Marriage certificates.
MR. LEBLANC: Are you thinking of getting married, again?
MR. HOLM: I hope not.
MR. LEBLANC: The answer is no.
MR. HOLM: Marriage licences.
MR. LEBLANC: No.
MR. HOLM: Books and publications, anything? You have quite a few publications . . .
MR. LEBLANC: Do you mean through the book store?
MR. HOLM: No, no. I mean government departments provide information. You can contact your various departments for brochures and materials on a whole host of different things.
MR. LEBLANC: That one, I would have to go back to the departments. If there are some publications that they would be producing that will have increased costs, I can't tell you, as to whether or not there is any increased cost in what they will be charging for publications. The book store, we are looking for an October 1st deadline on that one. You bring up a good question, I will try to find the answer for you. There is nothing that I am aware of, but I will try to . . .
MR. HOLM: No plans to start charging for materials that are currently provided free of charge, that you are going to start to impose fees for?
MR. LEBLANC: Not that I am aware of.
MR. HOLM: Landlord/tenant and residential tenancy, of course, falls under your department. Certainly people make applications. At the present time, I don't believe that a tenant, if they wish to bring a complaint or have a hearing, that there are any charges.
MR. LEBLANC: Just one second on that one.
MR. HOLM: This is one, the Residential Tenancies Act, we are going to be putting out a position paper relatively shortly on this. There has been a lot of discussion on it. I know the member for Sackville-Cobequid has been very outspoken on this. I guess any MLA who lives within the HRM, especially - I am not saying that other members aren't affected, but - your areas are probably affected most. Your particular problems are also increased because of the number of trailer parks that are out there. You brought up concerns last year in that regard. We looked at the situation, there are some changes that are going to be proposed in the position paper.
After we get changes to the Residential Tenancies Act as it now sits, and some recommendations - both sides, the landlords and the tenants, have been putting forward positions on both sides of it - the position paper will go out, and our intention is to bring in legislation in the fall. I would not see any changes in fees that would take place this year, if there are going to be any. If that is the case, I would see it coming in as of next year.
MR. HOLM: So this discussion paper will be out when?
MR. LEBLANC: The position paper should be out relatively shortly. I am thinking in a matter of weeks.
MR. HOLM: Before the House rises?
MR. LEBLANC: That could be. It depends on how quickly we can get it together, but that could happen.
MR. HOLM: It has been being worked on for some time, has it not?
MR. LEBLANC: Yes, it has.
MR. HOLM: So it must be pretty well all put together?
MR. LEBLANC: It is coming together quite a bit. If you are asking me for a definite date . . .
MR. HOLM: No, I am not asking for a definite date.
MR. LEBLANC: I am saying it should probably come out before the House rises.
MR. HOLM: Okay, because the budget will not be voted on before May 4th, at the earliest. What I would like to know is, by May 4th - I have no idea what plans the government has to keep us beyond that time, hopefully they will find the motivation to keep us in for a little bit longer, but that having been said, I think it is appropriate that that be brought forward before the House adjourns.
MR. LEBLANC: If I could just add to that. Within this budget year there are no planned increases in fees and so forth. In the position paper we will be putting out, it is setting up the direction for the Residential Tenancies Act and how it will be dealt with. At that time we will be able to get input, and we are looking at the fall to bring about a new Act, but within this budget year, if you are talking about differences in fees, there is nothing going to take place within this fiscal year.
MR. HOLM: I was just trying to do some quick math here. It looks like the fees that we have identified so far are going to generate over $1 million.
MR. LEBLANC: The fees in here are sizeable and they do recover considerable amounts of money. A lot of them are things that we have discussed at length. This is one of the issues, especially in regard to the driver's fees and so forth, I had mentioned them before and I know you are aware of those. The other ones had not been mentioned and I am talking about the insurance agent fees, the fuel dye commissions, and so forth, those are things which had not been discussed prior to the budget.
MR. HOLM: Going further for businesses, you have the Nova Scotia Business Registry, and of course there are business licence applications, you have to apply for those business licences and so on. The Workers' Compensation Board, employer registration and so on, all this is done through your department. Are there any fee changes or new implication fees under either of those kinds of programs?
MR. LEBLANC: You bring up a good point. What I have been trying to do, Madam Chairman, from the department's perspective, we really feel that Nova Scotia Business Registry has a lot of potential, especially as we are going to be going on-line. I think for a lot of people who felt a few years ago that there were only going to be a few people on the computer and they would be experts, we have all been proven wrong. The number of people increasing their use of computerization is just remarkable and even people who thought they would never be able to do it, myself included, are getting fairly familiar with it. So we think there is a lot of potential and we are encouraging as many of the applications that we have, whether they be for a multitude of different things, that they take advantage of it because I think it can be done efficiently and it can be a lot more easily accessed.
I will use as an example, the Registry of Motor Vehicles, which is a separate system. I received my vehicle registration applications. Every time I go to the Registry of Motor Vehicles - if there is a line-up, you don't know whether you should stay or not. So there is an opportunity to call in, just give your credit card and you can order it. Well, I tried it and two days later I could not believe it, my permits were there. I think we can apply that more to a lot of things that government does.
Your question, specifically, as to whether or not we will be increasing fees or anything like that, for ourselves, as more departments can come on-stream and use the facility, we think we will do more business on it. If we do that, as to what level of fees will be charged, I cannot determine that now because it will depend on what the fee is now and whether or not we can deliver it on-line and whether that is the same price, or whatever, or is it cheaper? A lot of times if we are delivering fees, what is the cost of delivering that fee and if we are trying to encourage people to use the Nova Scotia Business Registry, then maybe we could even consider whether or not we want to give a fee at a lower rate because it may reduce the demand on front-line services that we provide in other areas. So I think we have to have an open mind and ask, do we want the same fee or do we want to encourage people to use the service because it will take pressures off someplace else. That is the type of debate that is going to take place as we try to use more and more of the Nova Scotia Business Registry.
MR. HOLM: The program review has been completed and I did not really get a solid answer one way or the other, totally, in what you said. Maybe I can simplify the question and just put it this way.
MR. LEBLANC: Clarify it, okay.
MR. HOLM: Let me simply put it this way. Are you stating, categorically, that there will be no fee changes this fiscal year under, for example, the Nova Scotia Business Registry, the business licence application or the Workers' Compensation Board employer registration?
MR. LEBLANC: Two things, one of which is the Workers' Compensation Board, I cannot speak on their behalf on what is going on, so I don't know. I can tell you now that there are no fee increases planned for this year for any of the things you referred to. How quickly other things can come on and whether or not we will be collecting that fee - let's use an example and I am not sure if it is a proper one, but let's use the Nova Scotia Department of Fisheries' fishing licences or let's even use the Nova Scotia Alcohol and Gaming Authority, which has lottery licences, are those things that could be put on the Nova Scotia Business Registry whereby people could access that much quicker or maybe go through an access centre rather than doing it? Those were fees that maybe our department would collect rather than having another department collect.
So I want to make sure that when I say there are no fees planned, we may end up being the service provider that may change where the fee for the application may be collected.
Whether that happens in this year or not, I cannot tell you, but to be clear, there are no fees that we are contemplating unless there is a change in service. I think I have been clear. If not, maybe you can ask me again.
MR. HOLM: The thing is that the revenues show up as revenues under your department, not under some other department that you may be providing a service for.
MR. LEBLANC: That is why I am saying that.
MR. HOLM: For convenience sake, let's go down to, request, name reservation, business and society registration, any fee changes under anything in that area?
MR. LEBLANC: No.
MR. HOLM: The insurance and financial institution licensing, you talked about $200,000 that was for the insurance agents. Is that the same line item?
MR. LEBLANC: You are talking institutions versus agents, and I will have to find . . .
MR. HOLM: Yes. The insurance businesses and financial institutions have to be licensed in this province and I think that those licences are done on an annual basis? You have to renew the licences. How much money is generated from that?
MR. LEBLANC: I will get that information for you. So you want to talk both; financial institutions, you are referring to banks, . . .
MR. HOLM: All I am doing here is just reading off the web page for the Department of Business and Consumer Services - deep research.
MR. LEBLANC: There is nothing wrong with that. I will find out the answer for you.
MR. HOLM: Other business, licensing information, that could include a whole host of different things.
MR. LEBLANC: It probably does.
MR. HOLM: Under that heading on your web page, any fee changes for any of those others?
MR. LEBLANC: The increases we are talking about, the ones we are changing are the ones I have listed here, the ones I gave to you when we started off.
MR. HOLM: The Nova Scotia Companies Database, what in the heck is that?
MR. LEBLANC: I believe that is the Registry of Joint Stocks. So that would be the database there. No planned increases there.
MR. HOLM: No fee increases there; no decreases there either?
MR. LEBLANC: Not that I know of.
MR. HOLM: Under consumer issues, the Canadian Consumer Handbook; you have the inquiries and complaints and debtor information and counselling and then, of course, landlord tenancy; you have insurance inquiries; tax information listed on your web page, anything planned in any of those areas in terms of fees?
MR. LEBLANC: No.
MR. HOLM: Nothing. We talked about motor vehicle licences. How about registrations and permits?
MR. LEBLANC: No. I will say, there is a point that came up, a number of members of the House brought up a point, people who had travel trailers that are relatively large would have to pay per weight. They felt the rates were perhaps too high because it is charged on the number of kilograms, and they were doing a review of how they were being charged across Canada. Most of the people who have these trailers aren't always on the road. The fees that are charged are obviously for commercial vehicles based on the estimated amount of mileage you would do over the highways. That is why the fees are high. It is to recoup, basically, a lot of the pounding that goes on on the highways.
So I did indicate to members that we would review that during the year. I wrote back to the person who initiated that request and said we would have a staff review as to how this fee is being charged and so forth. So I will give that one caveat. I am not saying there will be changes, but we indicated that we would take a look at that to make it more equitable, but if it is going to do that, it will probably be a decrease rather than an increase.
Sometimes people bring up something they feel is unfair, and I looked at it and at least I wrote him back and said there may be some credence to what you are saying and we are prepared to take a look at it. Actually, I am talking to the other side of it, there may be something more in dealing with special types of circumstances. It is difficult, because once you get into it, it also has a domino effect; if you change one, where do you stop and where do you start. That is one that was mentioned.
MR. HOLM: So those who can afford to buy the most expensive types of travel trailers may possibly be going to receive a slight reduction in cost. But those who may have very low or modest incomes will have to pay a lot more, even to get a drivers license?
MR. LEBLANC: No. I think what you are looking at here is whether or not the fee that is being charged was fair. That is what they asked us to look at. I indicated to him that I would take a look at it, and we would review it and make a decision. I didn't make any commitment, but I did say we would review it. There was information provided at that time about how they were being charged in other provinces, and at that time I said I would take a look at it.
MR. HOLM: Have you done a tally? I am sure you would have, as Minister of Finance of course; wearing your other bonnet, you would want to know what all of the various revenue streams are going to be for the province, and you would have looked at all the various departments, including your other, Business and Consumer Services. Have you done a tally to tell us what is going to be the net increase-projected increase in revenues from all of the fees and services and everything you provide under Business and Consumer Services?
MR. LEBLANC: We also have a bulletin we put out and we indicated what the fees would be. I think it totals about $1.7 million. I want to say first of all, that is a high number, but because we are a service industry and we are providing services - there is no department that deals more with service than ours. You take into account the access centres we have, Registry of Motor Vehicles, Vital Statistics, Registry of Joint Stock Companies, we also deal with a whole lot of other services, this is the one that probably would have more of a recovery. A lot of those changes are in areas we looked at especially in regard to gasoline and diesel tax wholesalers, taking away their commission, even people in the tobacco tax. Those are situations right there that is about one third of those recoveries. Those two add up to about $535,000.
MR. HOLM: Just going through and tallying up the ones you gave me, very quickly off my head, I am missing approximately $100,000 because they add up to a little over those ones. I am not going to dwell on that.
I am just going to go to the estimates book, on Page 2.2 . . .
MR. LEBLANC: Just before I forget, I will give you a breakdown of that number, just to make sure that everything I have given you is complete. That is not difficult to do.
MR. HOLM: I am trying to be that little ferret we are supposed to be.
MR. LEBLANC: Oh, you are a nice ferret, though.
MR. HOLM: Thank you very much. That is going to warm my heart for the rest of the day. If I could just go to the revenue book, it is showing, for example, the estimated revenue under the Gasoline and Diesel Oil Tax is up from $218 million to $232 million, which is an increase of $14 million.
MR. LEBLANC: No, I think it is $12.39 million.
MR. HOLM: Okay $12.39 million, whatever. I am going from Estimate to Forecast.
MR. LEBLANC: Yes, I am going Estimate to Estimate. No problem. Either way it is up.
MR. HOLM: Why?
MR. LEBLANC: Why? Because the projections, surprisingly, are still showing an increment in the amount of gas consumption, which is, to be candid, surprising. Because from the earlier information we had with the price increases, we were expecting a decrease in usage. That was the preliminary information we are getting. However, surprisingly, I think the economy is doing well and people are accepting the price levels where they are and are still consuming more. As the economy is still growing, the overall consumption is up. I will be candid, I am surprised, and obviously I am happy that the consumption is up because that also means, in a sense, that the confidence in the economy is there, but I want to say that when I saw those projections I was surprised.
MR. HOLM: Well, I know that HST is the next line item down, which I want to get some clarification on, but I referred to Gasoline and Diesel Oil Tax, is there any of that that is related to HST?
MR. LEBLANC: No.
MR. HOLM: So you are saying that is strictly on the basis of - and it is about 26 cents a litre for gasoline, I can't remember what it is for home heating fuel.
MR. LEBLANC: No. On the gasoline, it is 13.5 cents.
MR. HOLM: Excuse me, yes, because part of that is here.
MR. LEBLANC: Diesel is 15.4 cents. If I could just make a comment before going forward. In the estimates, the consumption had been down in the month of January and grew again in February. So those were a lot of the reasons we expected the consumption to be down. We are about two or three months behind in our data when we compare it, so the early indications were that the high prices would curb consumption, and as such, overall, the consumption would be down. Basically that has changed around, and that is still up.
MR. HOLM: Basically, when one considers if you turn off your furnace, in the middle of the wintertime, your pipes will freeze; the occasional inconvenience happens, and if you don't have any . . .
MR. LEBLANC: That is not home heating fuel.
MR. HOLM: No, I know that. My next line was going to be, if you have a vehicle and you have to get from point A to point B, you are still going to have to do it. It is going to be very interesting to see what happens in the end. I don't know if I should be doing my little rant with you again about how I consider the government being totally irresponsible in bringing forward measures to protect consumers. I saw your press release which says that companies have to post the numbers, and I am sure, therefore, the companies will start to post signs saying, the total price is, this much is tax and this much is the cost for other things. You have done zip to get at the real root issues of the problems. You have done nothing, zero, to address the competition issue. If all companies were required to be selling the product to whoever wished to buy it from the distributor, that meaning Esso, mainly in Nova Scotia, to all at exactly the same price, then companies could actually compete on a retail basis. That is one.
[11:00 a.m.]
Temperature conversion outlawing that. You tell me how many days in the run of a year the average temperature in Nova Scotia is 15 or more degrees Celsius. It is probably two or three in the middle of the summer when you average it out through the day. Home heat oil is delivered in the wintertime, not too many days when the temperature is 15 degrees Celsius, but that is when they sell it to you and volume wise. That is literally ripping millions of dollars out of the pockets of Nova Scotians, many millions of dollars. So if you want to do something, don't just do a window dressing and have them post what the price is so you can drive up and down the street and see they are all charging the same price, do something to really put competition back into the market place.
MR. LEBLANC: Two things, Madam Chairman. First of all, I believe the prices should be posted. A lot of gas stations post their price anyway; other ones don't. I think a lot of times when they are not posting it it is because they may have the prices higher or whatever. You never know until to stop and gas up. We also have the card-lock systems in my area. To be perfectly candid, there were people who were using the card-lock in the one specific to where I reside, where a lot of times the HST wasn't included into the price, when they got their statements, then they realized that actually it was higher. I personally believe that at least the prices should be posted. People will know what the prices are and they will make the decision.
I want to get back to the one point you talked about, the temperature conversion distribution method. This is one, especially, that has been pushed nationally. To tell you the truth, whether or not I am comfortable with it - we had some meetings with the Executive Director of the Retail Gas Dealers Association, in talking to members, and actually we have had members, regionally, in Yarmouth where I reside, where people are saying that their sales don't meet their purchases, and they are having some losses. This is one area that I don't feel comfortable with. I think we are going to have to do more work, because whether or not it is consumers, which is what you are referring to for home heating, which is whether or not what goes out matches what comes in, is being achieved.
For those of you who aren't aware what temperature conversion distribution is, as you load it into the truck and as you deliver it, it is supposed to match, because there could be expansion due to temperature. I am not an engineer, to say I understand all the facets of it, I don't. I do know from speaking to people, that some people are of the opinion that this distribution is perhaps more weighted in ensuring that the major distributors are protected rather than the consumers. So there is some debate here. To say that isn't so is an understatement. If you speak to people in the industry you will know that. So that is one that I am prepared to take a look at.
MR. HOLM: Well, I will sum it up a little bit, I think, more succinctly than that. The oil is loaded on the truck. That is the company's problem. They get it in the truck. Those trucks have computers on them. They could be delivering the home heating fuel at five degrees below zero. That truck pumps it into your home heat tank. The computer measures the volume going through the meter. The computer then converts what that volume would actually equate to if it was heated to 15 degrees Celsius. Things expand, if you want to know how you can get 922 litres of oil in a 900 litre tank, what you do is you deliver it at a cold temperature, I think at zero degrees. All of a sudden the consumer has just been charged for 20 some odd litres that they don't receive, and to me that is wrong. You talk to the retailers, you talk to the consumers, and ask them if they would like to pay for something they don't get. I think you will get a pretty resounding answer. In almost every state, if not every state in the good old United States of America, that conservative supposedly business-friendly nation to our south, they outlaw temperature conversion.
MR. LEBLANC: On that, even speaking to gas dealers, they themselves are saying they are losing volume, because they see themselves almost as a consumer also. They are buying from the oil companies and, obviously, they are pumping gas to cars. At the end of the month if they have a shrinkage, of course, that is coming out of their pockets, and their margins are being affected. To me, it is almost a comparison of someone who is buying fuel at home. I want to say, supposedly, how this works - the member has given a good outline - supposedly, the truck is supposed to adjust all this by computer to make sure the consumer is buying the right amount. I am not really up to par on all the facets of it, but I do know that school is out. The member is right when he says that in the United States, I believe there are a lot of the states where it is outlawed. There is a study going on with the federal government
in regard to this industry, and that is supposed to have some input from the province. That is one of the issues we want to bring up, so I want to concur with the member.
MR. HOLM: I will say this, the retailers, the gas stations and the small independents who are providing the product to the homeowners and to the businesses, are at the mercy of the big boys as well. I have sympathy for the retailers. The big boys are ripping us off to the tune of many tens of millions of dollars, for example, as a result of this so-called shortage in the States this past winter. My degree or level of sympathy for them is very, very small. We have to start doing something to protect them.
You also have in here an increase of approximately $2.5 million for tobacco tax. Are you projecting an increase in the number of smokers in this province?
MR. LEBLANC: No. If you recall last fall, there was an increment in the tax as of November so, of course, that wasn't a full year.
MR. HOLM: Okay, so are you prorating it?
MR. LEBLANC: Yes.
MR. HOLM: Any projected increases?
MR. LEBLANC: In usage?
MR. HOLM: No, in taxes on it this year?
MR. LEBLANC: No, nothing is anticipated as it is now.
MR. HOLM: I just say that is one area where, even though I am known to imbibe in that, indulge, yes a better way of putting it, that is one area, quite truthfully, I would favour an increase.
MR. LEBLANC: The member brings up a good point, Madam Chairman. I think that the Maritime provinces or Atlantic provinces that - as it is now, Nova Scotia has a higher tax than the other three provinces, maybe not Newfoundland, but I know in comparison with New Brunswick, I think we are a little over $1.00 per carton higher. I think if we are going to look at tobacco tax we should try to do it in unison. Other than that you create too much of a differential between provinces, and that creates opportunities for leakage or black-market activity. If we are going to do it, obviously I would much prefer to do it in unison rather than in isolation, but I appreciate the members comments.
MR. HOLM: Okay, moving down, we have gone through the insurance companies, the $200,000; the licence-regulated industries, that is staying the same; the trust companies
staying the same as projected; tax on fire insurance premiums, same; the tax on insurance premiums, that is staying the same. There were a couple of others here I wanted to touch on. I guess that is all of them in there. How much time have I left now?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You are now down to three minutes.
MR. HOLM: No way will I get into what I wanted to do in the three minutes. I will just go into your business plan projection, first. You talked about the fact that the department now has the capacity to provide cost savings for governments by taking on certain service-delivery functions for other departments and government agencies. You then go on and say you will be doing, in essence, a lot of that throughout the year. Which services has the government or your department agreed to start to provide to other departments this year?
MR. LEBLANC: I indicated in my comments before, especially with regard to the Nova Scotia Business Registry, we feel as that comes more on-stream the other departments will be able to use that to a greater extent. So, that is one within the department I think we can pick on.
I also want to say that as we move towards the new structure of government, as much as possible we make ourselves available to people, whether or not through our Access Nova Scotia Centres, through our inquiries division, that they are multitask, they answer a lot of questions for a multitude of different aspects of departments and I think that is what we have to do. That is one section where we have been very pleased with how they work.
MR. HOLM: Yes, but you are not giving me any specifics.
MR. LEBLANC: I am telling you that is what we want to move towards and I think we have to. I think that is where we have to go, as much as possible, to multitasking, whereby we can deliver more services, in a sense, to the same people as where we have to go. If we are going to make the changes that we have to do in this budget, we have to think outside.
MR. HOLM: The last question I will just throw to you before I leave. You are talking about doing all of these different kinds of things, how many more jobs are going to be positioned around this province outside of metro as a result of all of this program review and restructuring from your department?
MR. LEBLANC: Most of the changes we have made within this system are at head office, I will be candid about that. We look at situations that, for ourselves, are moving towards providing services outside of government as much as possible, using the facilities that we have. We talked about multitasking, I think that is what we have to do. When you look at the access centres that we have, to a great extent a lot of those people are multitasked and I think that is where we have to go.
People in the past were usually assigned one specific duty and delivered it and they did a good job, but I think we have to think beyond that and that's really where we are headed in this process. Without getting into specifics that is the whole philosophy of why we brought this department together and why we have to keep going. They have done some good work, but it can't stop here because of the savings we have to achieve.
MR. HOLM: Okay, thank you. My time has expired and I will come back at a future time, but I know the words, outside of government, sounded a lot like contracting out - in the minister's closing statements - and that is something I also want to come back to.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now turn the time to the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Richmond, you have one hour.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Minister, I am just wondering if you have that information you indicated you would provide to me on Tuesday, if you have that here today?
MR. LEBLANC: There were numerous questions you asked me, one of which was in regard to the scale houses, as to whether there have been any changes in the weighers? The answer is no. The other thing you asked about the . . .
MR. SAMSON: Is the answer still no?
MR. LEBLANC: The answer is that there will not be reductions in that staff.
MR. SAMSON: No reductions and there will be no increases, though?
MR. LEBLANC: No. We talked about the Vehicle Compliance, which is the motor vehicle inspection section. There is a reduction of five inspector positions, that will leave six remaining, plus some support staff, obviously. As I said before, the change of focus is from inspecting the paperwork at the gas stations or the inspection stations to conducting more roadside checks.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, the other things I requested were, I believe, a list of employee names for Policy and Business Development, and a cost comparison of your bookstore, expenses as compared to revenue. I am wondering if you have that also?
MR. LEBLANC: Two things you were mentioned trying to find out where we are going to find the positions, if you look at that section, the estimate last year when we started off was at $20,000, the forecast ended up being $14,900 and we are at $15,000 this year. Basically, the changes have already taken place within the department, so you are trying to find out where the reductions would be. There is a list of different positions that are in that
department and I will get the staff to put it out into a list and I will give it (Interruption) I have no problem with that, we will give it by name and I will get that sent over to you.
There is another question you had, was it three that you asked me or two?
MR. SAMSON: I can't hear a thing you are saying. I don't know if it is the noise outside, if your mike isn't close enough to you or what it is, but I didn't hear a thing you said. I think what you just said was for Policy and Business Development, the changes had already taken place. You said something about the list of names, I don't know what you said, if you have it or you don't have it, I am not quite sure what you said there, so you are going to have to repeat some of that because I didn't hear what you were saying.
MR. LEBLANC: I will give you a list of the names; I will get the staff to do it so you will have it on your desk before your hour is out.
MR. SAMSON: Perfect. With that list, if you could provide a salary breakdown, because yesterday we had a bit of a disagreement as to the salaries. I had the opportunity to rely on something a bit more reliable than my own mathematics, which was a calculator. Out of those 15 remaining staff, you said five were administrative-type positions, 10 policy-type positions. I assumed that those five people would make maybe $35,000 a year. I thought that was being quite generous under the usual pay scale for those positions. With that assumption, $35,000 each for those five employees, the 10 remaining would be left with an average salary of $65,000 a year. I am curious if that is an accurate reflection of the salary level being paid for those 10 employees in that particular sector?
MR. LEBLANC: Well, I think if you look at it, you are not encompassing the employee benefits, but we will get that information to you on that one. I indicated to you that I will give you that before today is over.
The other thing you talked about, I believe, was the bookstore. When you take the bookstore into account, and you look at the charge we have to other departments, the savings that will come out of there is approximately $25,000. Subsequent to that, we have not incorporated into that the use of the space that is used by the bookstore. Basically, by our estimates, we are saving approximately $100,000 by eliminating that service.
MR. SAMSON: So basically what you are indicating to us was that the bookstore was a money loser for government?
MR. LEBLANC: Overall, yes, of course it was.
MR. SAMSON: Do you have those numbers you could provide to me, more specific numbers that back up what you are saying? In other words, if I am to understand correctly what you are telling me, the cost of staff and rent far exceeded by $125,000 . . .
MR. LEBLANC: No, I said $100,000. It would be $25,000 plus $75,000 which is the rent component that is being used there, so basically it comes to $100,000.
MR. SAMSON: You were paying $75,000 a year in rent for that particular space?
MR. LEBLANC: The space downtown, if you look at what space is going for at this present time, that space is being occupied by the bookstore, if you wanted to talk apples to apples, that's what it is.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, what are you paying at that particular location right now? Is that what you are paying, $75,000?
MR. LEBLANC: It isn't what we are paying at that spot, it is what we are paying to provide office space elsewhere, because if the bookstore wasn't occupying that space, we could be using it.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, for the size of the bookstore, you figure it would cost $75,000 to relocate it to a different place?
MR. LEBLANC: It is 2,500 square feet.
MR. SAMSON: That is what it currently has?
MR. LEBLANC: That is right.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, so you are saying 2,500 square feet would cost $75,000 a year in rent.
MR. LEBLANC: Rent downtown, in this area, is high right now, I think you probably appreciate, especially with the gas and oil industry that we have, rental space is extremely high. I want to say first of all, that is after you have done all of the charge-backs, the bookstore is charging fees back to the other departments, and you could say that it is cost recovery. Well, someone is spending that money and so is the charge-back accurate or not? I guess in a sense, that is a good question, but I go back to my point; why are we producing all these annual reports, why are we going through a process of trying to make all these publications available for sale? Our approach on this thing, as much as possible, is that we produce these publications, put them on the internet, put them on the government web site. If people want that information they can have access to it without having to buy the book. If they want to print it out, fine.
MR. SAMSON: Well, unfortunately, not everybody in Petit-de-Grat or in Loch Lomond or in L'Ardoise or in different areas have access to the Internet..
MR. LEBLANC: That is why we have libraries and people can access cap sites. If people want information, they will be able to find it.
MR. SAMSON: Well, I am sure there are many people who take quite an interest in the minister feeling that people should all be able to access this information and not have any alternate means of being able to order that by mail. The point still comes down to, you say there is 2,500 square feet where the bookstore is now?
MR. LEBLANC: That is correct.
MR. SAMSON: It must be a lot bigger than what it was when I was there. You say if you took out that bookstore and put government offices in there, you would save $75,000 of what is currently being paid out for putting government offices in other places?
MR. LEBLANC: The current rate downtown, if we have to find space, that is a comparable rate. That is what you are going to have to pay in the downtown core right now. If you want to compare apples to apples, that is what you should do.
MR. SAMSON: Have you ever been in the bookstore?
MR. LEBLANC: Sure I have.
MR. SAMSON: You have walked through it?
MR. LEBLANC: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: You have seen how big it is?
MR. LEBLANC: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: Office-wise, how many actual staff do you think you could put in there with desks and other equipment, into that actual space? I guess you are saying you could move office space in there, how many office spaces would you put where the bookstore is right now?
MR. LEBLANC: Look, Mr. Chairman, I know the honourable member has worked at the bookstore and perhaps has a closeness to it, but it comes in as, do we, as government want to run a bookstore; and the answer is no. We don't have to run a bookstore. I know the member said that we sell Nova Scotia publications at the bookstore. That is one of the reasons why we should close it, there are many good bookstores throughout metro and throughout Nova Scotia that promote Nova Scotian literature. I don't think this is a service that government has to provide. We are giving ourselves six months to make sure we have
the venues to distribute the publications and the manuals that people want and we will achieve that. It doesn't require our having to run a bookstore.
We could get into the details of everything else, but I am telling you that our government doesn't believe that is a core service; we don't have to deliver it and as much as those people there are delivering a fine service, and they do their job well, it isn't a service we have to provide.
MR. SAMSON: Well, that is arguable and I am sure people will take that up. You are leaving the impression that this is being done for financial purposes, and whether you want to answer the questions for it or not, we are going to have a lot of awkward silence because I am going to keep asking questions. You are arguing this was done on a cost basis and I have serious questions about that argument, that there are actually any cost savings at all going to be incurred in here on what you have said. Whether you like me asking questions about it or not, it really means nothing to me. That is not going to stop me asking questions.
What were you paying in salary for staff at the bookstore?
MR. LEBLANC: According to this calculation, $137,000, including the training and the benefits.
MR. SAMSON: How much revenue was coming in from the book store?
MR. LEBLANC: It was $279,000, but that would include a lot of the charge-backs that we have from the other departments. Let me just add to that. About one-half of that would be direct sales and one-half would be recoveries from the departments.
MR. SAMSON: What was the net? I take it you are giving me a gross number, from what you are saying. What is the net?
MR. LEBLANC: No, the net on a basis is $25,000, that we are saving. The costs are $25,000 plus the rent that is there. That is on a business application. Of the sales that are there, there are a lot of supplies which are purchased and I will give these numbers to the member, I will go through them if you want, one at a time.
MR. SAMSON: Oh, yes. Go right ahead.
MR. LEBLANC: The salaries and the training benefits and so forth is $136,700; the supplies purchased for resale is $128,400; the general office, IT supplies, telecommunications, is $20,300; postage and freight is $8,000; advertising is $8,000; bank charges are $2,600; that is a total cost of $304,000. The revenues are $279,000 and half of those are charge-backs to departments. That means that the cost of the operation is $25,000 plus the rent, and of course the utilities that would encompass. Mr. Chairman, besides the $100,000 we think that we will
be achieving here, we also have the fact of the matter that we are distributing a lot of materials to achieve even this modest loss. If we can stop publishing all our annual reports and having them distributed through the bookstore, whereby, to be perfectly candid, a lot of them don't sell and I am sure there is some real good reading in the back of a 1995 Department of the Environment Annual Report, that never get distributed, that probably aren't encompassing to the cost of putting out these annual reports and periodicals, the savings is going to be much more considerable than the $100,000 that I am talking about here.
MR. SAMSON: Well, if the minister is talking about the state of the Department of the Environment's Annual Report, I certainly hope if there are any more copies that he will save me one because it will become a collector's item now as your government has cut the publication of any more of those since the first one, so that would probably be worth some money someday as a collector's item.
So you are still holding to the fact that you think you are going to save $100,000 by closing the bookstore?
MR. LEBLANC: I want to be perfectly candid, I think we are going to save more than $100,000.
MR. SAMSON: Just to the bookstore?
MR. LEBLANC: Just to the bookstore.
MR. SAMSON: So cutting those four positions is going to save you $100,000. So you say $75,000 in rent. How many staff people do you think you can put in that office space, in that location?
MR. LEBLANC: They are there. I don't know if the member is saying that we shouldn't do this or whether or not we want to do a measurement of the facility to see how many people physically fit into the facility. I still go back to the point that - I am not debating how many people fit into an office, I am trying to explain to the member why we are not in the bookstore business anymore. I don't know if I am missing the point of his question or not, but I am trying to give him the rationale why we made the decision and why we believe it is the right one for Nova Scotians and how we will be able to deliver those services. The change I am contemplating is to make sure people have access to the same publications he is referring to. Especially, as much as possible, via the Internet. I think that is something that is a reasonable approach to it and if there are some of his questions that I have missed the point, then I am more than prepared to go over it again.
MR. SAMSON: Unless I am wrong here, I understood that we were here to debate estimates not policy. We disagree on the policy and that is not a problem. We are talking numbers here and if you are going to throw out numbers, I expect you to be able to justify
what you are saying. If you are going to say that you are saving $75,000 for the government, the bookstore is using the current space it has because that is where it was put. I have no doubt that if it was put in a smaller space, it would adapt to that smaller space. I don't accept your argument of $75,000. You are basically saying what you are paying in rent now - what are you paying in rent, where the bookstore is at?
MR. LEBLANC: I don't know. That is provided through TPW, I am not aware of it.
I am telling you if government is filling space elsewhere in metro that we could move those people from that location to this location, those are the rates that you would be saving.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, so how much are you saving? How much could you put there? That is my question. You have made the statement if we take the bookstore out, we can put people in there and we will save money by putting them in there and not having to pay for the bookstore and they won't be in other places. How many are you going to put there? That is my question because I don't know which bookstore you are in, this bookstore is not big, relatively. The ceilings are high, but that is about it. It is not a big bookstore, so staff-wise, I don't know how many government offices you plan on, or you think you are going to be able to physically put into there and make all these monetary savings, which is your argument. That is where I am asking you to back up your statement. Where are your figures? What numbers are you using to justify your argument on a financial basis.
[11:30 a.m.]
MR. LEBLANC: Mr. Chairman, I guess in a sense when we made this decision, we didn't make the decision based to figure out how many people would fit into the 2,500 square feet that is there. We are saying that space will be available to government to reduce its demands for office space elsewhere in government. Now how many people will fit into that will be determined when that space is occupied subsequent to the bookstore leaving. For me to tell the honourable member how many people will fit into it, obviously that is going to depend on who is moving in and what function they will do. I can't tell him that today.
MR. SAMSON: With all due respect to the minister, that is no surprise, because you are basically singing the same songs most of your other colleagues are. Half your decisions, you don't seem to have any idea of what is behind them, and just these general statements. So I am certainly not shocked there.
User fees; you went through them with the other member. I tried to get the information at the same time. That appeared to bother you, so we will go through them again. If you can start right from the beginning, and we will go through each. I would like the program name, the 1999 cost, the 2000 cost, and the revenue being generated by that.
MR. LEBLANC: Mr. Chairman, I went through this with the member for Sackville-Cobequid, and at the same time the member for Richmond was asking me for additional
information. The proper protocol, as much as possible, is to deal with one member at a time. I wasn't trying to shut out the member from the process. I mentioned at that time if he has any questions, we will do them over one at a time.
The drivers' test, we have initiated a $10 fee for the written test. So that means if you go in and you fail and you come back to write, you pay it again. The reason for that is what was happening for our staff, many people were basically not worrying about how many times or whether they properly studied for the test. If they fail it today, they come back tomorrow and try it again. If they fail tomorrow, they can come the day after. So that is a $10 fee for the test. If you write it twice, you pay twice.
MR. SAMSON: What revenue is that going to generate?
MR. LEBLANC: There is another one here, and I have them combined, so just let me give the other number, and I will give you the total. We have increased the road-test fee, this is when you go and take your driver's test, from $10 to $35. That additional revenue for this year will be $500,000.
MR. SAMSON: How often can you write your driver's test?
MR. LEBLANC: How often can you write your driver's test? Well, I am not sure there is a limit as to how many times you can write it.
MR. SAMSON: If I fail today, when can I go back?
MR. LEBLANC: Tomorrow.
MR. SAMSON: Wrong. I suggest the minister do a little bit more homework on his department, since I worked there about six years ago, you have to wait a week. You do not write every day. So I don't know if the minister has been using every day of the week in his projections to reach $500,000, or if he realizes that one can only write once per week, every seven calendar days from the time he first wrote. So I question that $500,000 figure. How that came to, if the minister believes one can write after each day.
Road tests are $35. I take it that is for your basic Class 5 road test?
MR. LEBLANC: There is a listing. It is Class 5, 6, and 8.
MR. SAMSON: That is $35?
MR. LEBLANC: That is right.
MR. SAMSON: How much for Class 1, 2, 3, and 4?
MR. LEBLANC: Class 1 to Class 4 will go from $20 to $35. Motorcycle, will go from $10 to $35.
MR. SAMSON: So Class 1 to Class 4 you said was going from $20 to $35.
MR. LEBLANC: That is correct.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, go ahead. What other user fees?
MR. LEBLANC: The other issues are the air brake tests, they will go from no fee to $10.
MR. SAMSON: What revenue do you expect to get there?
MR. LEBLANC: They have grouped them together, so for me to tell you specifics . . .
MR. SAMSON: Is this all under the $500,000 figure?
MR. LEBLANC: That is right.
MR. SAMSON: So this is all $500,000?
MR. LEBLANC: The interviews, when people have to come in, there will be a $20 fee for providing that service.
MR. SAMSON: So that is people who come in for speeding or DWI?
MR. LEBLANC: That is right.
MR. SAMSON: Same thing for both offences?
MR. LEBLANC: It doesn't differentiate.
MR. SAMSON: So, it was zero cost before. Now it will be $10?
MR. LEBLANC: It will be $20.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, go on.
MR. LEBLANC: We have the tests and the interview, that is for the people who have to come back to write their test after losing their license. So the re-test and so forth, that will be $45.
MR. SAMSON: What was the cost before?
MR. LEBLANC: There was no charge for that.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, would that include seniors who have to come in, provide a medical, do a re-test with one of the examiners? Are they going to be faced with that $45 charge also?
MR. LEBLANC: I don't think so, no.
MR. SAMSON: How are you going to differentiate between who should pay $45 and who shouldn't pay $45? What factor are you using to differentiate? I use the term senior, and I shouldn't have used the term senior because that is not appropriate. Any one of us could have a medical condition that causes concern for others, and we could get reported to the department, have to provide a medical, do an interview, and do a test. Will those people have to pay $45.
MR. LEBLANC: These are restorations, so if a senior has been reported, his license hasn't been lost, so he is coming in for a re-test, not a restoration.
MR. SAMSON: So this is strictly restoration of license?
MR. LEBLANC: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: You are sure about that?
MR. LEBLANC: I will make doubly sure with the staff, and I will make a note. That is what the staff is telling me now.
MR. SAMSON: I hope you are right. Okay, what else?
MR. LEBLANC: That is it.
MR. SAMSON: That is the $500,000 loop right there.
MR. LEBLANC: That is right.
MR. SAMSON: Just following that, tests and interviews. That will still be conducted by the staff who are currently with the department?
MR. LEBLANC: That is correct.
MR. SAMSON: There will be no privatization of those services?
MR. LEBLANC: No plans in this budget.
MR. SAMSON: No privatization of any of the services you have just listed?
MR. LEBLANC: No plans in this budget.
MR. SAMSON: No plans in this budget. Okay, go ahead.
MR. LEBLANC: Driver abstracts. We have brought a new on-line service and fee of $15 per abstract for the insurance industry which came into effect March 1st.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, so this is just the insurance side?
MR. LEBLANC: That is right. People can log on-line to get driver abstracts for drivers. As such, what that allows them to do is, if someone wants, obviously, to get insurance, whether or not it is for commercial reasons, or even for insurability, a lot of times insurance companies had to make requests. They used to have to batch them, they would send them in, they would get them printed out, or you could go in directly to the Registry of Motor Vehicles and get one printed up for $10. If you realize, for the insurance companies to go in for everybody that they want an abstract on is just not practical. So we have moved forward to develop an on-line system. Instead of paying the $10 usual fee, they can get that information on-line for $15. We did this in conjunction with the insurance industry. They wanted it. It is something that is service-provided. So we have an increment there. That will provide another $450,000 in fees for this year. But that was in response to the industry wanting more on-line service, and this is basically a good deal for both sides.
MR. SAMSON: So that $5 increase to the insurance is going to bring you $450,000?
MR. LEBLANC: That is correct.
MR. SAMSON: What about the walk-in? If I want to walk in and get my abstract myself?
MR. LEBLANC: It would cost $10.
MR. SAMSON: It is still only $10? So that hasn't changed?
MR. LEBLANC: No.
MR. SAMSON: What safeguards do you have from anyone going on-line to get someone's abstract?
MR. LEBLANC: There is a security system that is put in place that allows safeguards to be put in place. Security of the information was one of the factors that had to be built into this to make sure it would work.
MR. SAMSON: No, and I am not questioning security, but if my colleague here, Jerry Pye, works for the insurance company, what stops him from just going through to pick up my abstract.
MR. LEBLANC: Only certain people can hit on this, in other words can gain access, and that would be insurance companies. This comes from the insurance agents who would make the request. Before they make the request, they have to have signed approval from the driver permitting them to make the request to get the information. There has been follow-up to make sure that is in compliance.
MR. SAMSON: Who is going to follow-up on that? Who is going to check to see that the consent form has been signed, because they are going on-line?
MR. LEBLANC: There are going to be follow-ups, obviously, from our records we know who made the request. We can understand that because they are being charged for the fee. Also, we will do periodic follow-ups to make sure those are in compliance.
MR. SAMSON: What staff do you have committed to doing this?
MR. LEBLANC: Through the section, I want to point out to the member, the safeguards we have here are virtually the same as we had before, because what was going on before is that the information was being batched. This has been going on for some length of time. Insurance companies would make the requests for it in a batch mode, they would send it into the department, overnight we would provide the information and send it back to them. What we are allowing here is for them to get the information as a direct link into the system whereby they can have that information when the customer is in front of them. So basically nothing has changed in the way of the safeguards from this system to what was there before.
MR. SAMSON: If I am not mistaken, under the old system, when the insurance company sent in that request, they sent in the consent form at the same time. They were attached to those requests when it came in the paper form. So you had that as a hard copy right there. I am almost positive of that.
MR. LEBLANC: It has changed to electronics. Since the time you left, it has changed. I know you have been gone for six years, you said that yourself, so that is probably why. You are getting older, Michel, that is the problem.
MR. SAMSON: Yes, well and more foolish too, I think. Who is watching the system? This is all on-line, so who is watching the system, is the question? Do you have any staff responsible for watching the system? I don't know if someone in the insurance company has gone in and checked on my abstract. I have no means of knowing that. There is no notification to me as an individual. They can check my abstract 10 times in the next year. I don't know that. Who is watching the system to make sure that is not taking place? This is not to say the insurance industry has some sort of ulterior motives here, but I think the people of Nova Scotia deserve to know that there are safeguards in place, not just people tapping the system, hacking the system, I mean who is watching the hen house in your department to see what abstracts are being requested? That is my question and I haven't got an answer to that yet.
MR. LEBLANC: The head of that division isn't here right now to give you more detail into it. I want to say one thing before we move on, because I can only give the member the information of who is present at the table with me; my staff. I will ask them to ask the head of that division how the safeguards are put in place. One thing especially that we want to do is that we want to make information readily available where it is required. At the same time, we don't want to prejudice anybody's rights. We really feel, especially in abstracts, that the request coming through from the industry to have it provided in a direct link, rather than having to send it batched, is basically responding to a need that many of the drivers want to have an answer right then and there.
Your reference that many people are hacking into the system and requesting your driver's abstract, I am not really sure. If the lines are secure, it is the user, whether or not you are saying the insurance company is going to request information beyond what they need, I don't think that is going to be happening. I know you are putting forward a hypothetical question, but I don't think that is going to be occurring. There is really little benefit for people to do it.
MR. SAMSON: What would happen before is, when a driver abstract was requested, that was inputted on your record. When it was printed off, it would show an abstract was requested.
MR. LEBLANC: It still is.
MR. SAMSON: So when staff were looking at it, if they came and looked at the record, and they said wait a minute, there have been four requests for abstracts in the last six months, this looks a little bit odd, maybe we should check into this, who is making all of these requests, there were safeguards there. What you are telling me is that you can't indicate that
any staff is even watching this, these insurance agencies - and we know it is a competitive business. There are different people involved, many companies involved from all over the place.
From what you are telling me, there is no one watching the agents, who are accessing the system, to see whether they do have consent to access certain records, or whether the system is being followed properly. That is my point, and I haven't got any reassurance other than the minister saying, I don't think it will happen. That is not very comforting to me, that sort of reassurance. Hopefully the system is safe in that sense. I am talking about the agents who are registered to use the system. Who is watching those agents?
MR. LEBLANC: Two things. First of all, the same thing was occurring under the previous administration because it was electronic. Your statement that it was being done in written form with the authorization attached to it, that may have been done during your time, but it wasn't being done in the past. We were receiving electronic batch modes coming into the system looking for this information. So the security aspects you are referring to would be, if there was a problem, the same problem that is existing today. First of all, the hits, or the times that a profile is being requested is still shown on the record of the person. No matter what happens, whether it was before today, if the profiles are being requested, that is shown on the record of each driver. I want to say that what we were getting before was not a written batch from the insurance companies. What we were getting was an electronic batch, which is basically the same thing as we are doing now, but what we are doing now is that the information basically is instantaneous rather than having to wait overnight.
MR. SAMSON: I will check on that. Am I to understand everybody's records are on-line?
MR. LEBLANC: There is only certain information that is accessible. Is that what you are referring to, as to whether the whole file is accessible, or their driving record?
MR. SAMSON: Is your record on file?
MR. LEBLANC: The infractions part is what they are looking for, and that is what they would get. They wouldn't get all the information available on the record.
MR. SAMSON: What else do you think there is?
MR. LEBLANC: Well, there is more information on your driver's record than just your driving profile.
MR. SAMSON: Your address, your plate number, driver registration, what else? I guess I should ask what has been added to it other than basic infractions, registration, renewal of license, and other such information. What is excluded?
MR. LEBLANC: The deputy is telling me there is a certain amount of information that has nothing to do with the driver's profile that is not available, but I will get that information. You are asking two things, one is about the safeguards, and as I said the staff who do that are not here. I will get that information. She is telling me that a certain part of the record is not available to the insurance companies when they ask for profile.
MR. SAMSON: I am going to make a recommendation to the minister. I am not trying to be sarcastic, it is has just become very frustrating. This is two years in a row now. You have a department that probably has more programs than any other government department; and administering it, they are very complex. I don't expect you to have all the answers, I don't expect the deputy to have all answers, I don't expect your financial person to have all the answers, but out of every department I have seen in the three budgets that I have gone through now, you have come in here two years in a row with the least amount of staff of any minister. You have one of the most complicated departments. It is frustrating. Last year was the same thing, there were many questions you couldn't answer, I didn't expect you to be able to answer, but you didn't have the staff here to assist you.
I would recommend to the minister, next year, or if this continues past today, please bring some of your competent staff from these different divisions to answer these specific questions. It is very frustrating. It has been two years in a row now where it is the same thing - I will have to get back to you, I have to get back to you. This is not a knock on the minister, I don't expect you to know all these things because there are many programs, but it is very frustrating for us to see this department, with so many programs, have two or three staff people with the minister. I leave that with the minister.
You said it cost $7.00 per book to print the driver's handbook?
MR. LEBLANC: Yes.
MR. SAMSON: Is it going to be bilingual?
MR. LEBLANC: We will check. You asked me that question the other day, I made a note but I didn't have a chance to pass it on.
MR. SAMSON: Again, I don't mean to be sarcastic, but those are the little things where, if you had someone from that division, I am sure they would be able to answer it easily. Will that driver's handbook but put on-line?
MR. LEBLANC: That is not a bad idea. I must see why we wouldn't do that. I will tell the member, for ourselves, there is not a cost advantage to the province to doing it that way. That perhaps would be a better service to the public. It is an excellent suggestion and one that I think we should incorporate.
MR. SAMSON: I am pleased to hear that. I am happy that the minister is . . .
MR. LEBLANC: I am very agreeable when I want to be, and that is most of the time.
MR. SAMSON: I won't even go there. The driver's handbook, you are putting a charge on that. What about the air brake manual?
MR. LEBLANC: I am sorry.
MR. SAMSON: The air brake manual, which I would surmise is probably more expensive to print than your driver's handbook; not as much demand, naturally.
MR. LEBLANC: I'll find the answer, I don't know it.
MR. SAMSON: What about the school bus handbook and the Class 1, 2 and 3 handbooks?
MR. LEBLANC: Are you asking whether or not we would put that on-line?
MR. SAMSON: No. Will there be a fee on any of these manuals? I guess the odd thing is you are charging for one book, my question is are you going to charge for all the other books? The same problem exists with those books as existed with your driver's manual. You have done something about the driver's manual, what about these other publications?
MR. LEBLANC: I am not anticipating any changes in those other manuals, but the member brings up the point that maybe we should be charging for them, so we will take a look at that. There is no plan for change in the policy on those other manuals. They are not used, obviously, to the degree that the driver's manual is, that is the major publication that comes out of the department.
MR. SAMSON: Putting a fee on the driver's manual is not a new concept, I know it has been put around for quite some time. There is quite a bit of abuse to it, I fully agree, and I certainly hope it will be put on-line, which environmentally, will be an even more appropriate thing.
One of the most frustrating things that I saw was when these driver-testing schools, especially for the heavy equipment, came in and walked out with a box full of manuals, and they charged a fortune to these people who are taking these courses, and they don't pay a cent for any of these books. One could argue, well that is just going to be passed on to the consumers anyway. Still, the idea that a 16 year old has to pay for a driver's handbook, but the company that is making huge profits off these walks in and grabs a boxful of these books and doesn't pay a cent. I think if you are going to charge for this handbook, for the 16 year old or the senior who is getting re-tested, you can't be letting these big companies get away
with coming in and ordering and picking up two and three boxes of books at a time and not paying a cent for it. I would certainly ask the minister to look into that and make sure that if that is the case right now, they look into that.
MR. LEBLANC: Mr. Chairman, I think both those recommendations are valid. I will take a look to see the level of usage on those. In any case as to whether or not a fee is a fee, if we are going to recover for these books, then we should look at what our cost is in doing it. I think your first recommendation regarding putting it on-line, is an excellent one. If people want to save themselves the money, especially some of our younger Nova Scotians, if they didn't have to pay for it and could get it on-line, they would probably take it. I think those are good suggestions. We will take them both under advisement.
MR. SAMSON: Again, I don't mean to be too sarcastic on this. I am glad you will take it as a recommendation, I am just not quite sure where you will find the money to hire anyone to put it on-line. One would hope that considering the importance and the benefits of that, you will be able to find a few dollars for that.
Mr. Chairman, it is 11:55 a.m., Question Period starts at 12:00 p.m. I would recommend we recess now and come back after Question Period.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I was going to recommend we do that in one minute's time, it would leave you 15 minutes in your allocation. I will give you one more minute, that leaves you with exactly 15 minutes when we come back.
MR. SAMSON: Numerous Nova Scotia municipalities have been lobbying - I believe it started in the South Shore, if I am not mistaken, Lunenburg or one of those counties in that area, I saw the letter, it came to my council in Richmond County - for a return to the two-plate system; the licence plates, one in the front and one in the back. They have indicated concerns that it is causing serious problems for law enforcement agencies, not being able to see that front plate. One example they gave, which I thought was kind of interesting, is where people are passing school buses when they are stopped, especially coming in a forward direction. The bus driver, if he doesn't see that front plate, there is very little chance of his picking up the back plate. I don't know if that was a particular problem in that area, I hope it wasn't, but that is one of the examples they gave. I know it might be a Justice issue, but it is your department that issues these licence plates. Has there been any discussion in your department to address this, or to look at returning to a two-plate system?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I ask the minister to refrain from answering. It is now 11:56 a.m. and we will be recessing.
[11:57 a.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[1:10 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will now reconvene the Subcommittee on Supply. At the time of recess, the honourable member for Richmond had the floor, he has 15 minutes left in his allotment. So far we have one hour and 35 minutes in here today. The last question, I believe Mr. Samson asked, was about the double licence plates.
HON. NEIL LEBLANC: Mr. Chairman, the member for Richmond brought up a good concern. There have been some municipalities that have written. Apparently this was initiated from a gentleman whose wife had witnessed an accident, whereby she received some damage to her car. It was from the front, she couldn't see the licence plate, and made some complaints. I believe it was in the Valley, to tell you the truth, where the incident occurred. However, subsequent to that - I believe this is how it went - they made enquiries to the province as to whether we would reinstate the two-licence-plate policy and approached municipalities. Some municipalities have written to the province, made some enquiries to the Minister of Justice as to whether or not there is some consideration in doing so from an enforcement issue.
This is one that isn't coming from a Justice issue. As such, if we were to implement this, this is something that would have considerable cost. First of all, everyone has their licence plate staggered, you would either have to force everyone to re-register their car or phase it over time. No matter how you look at it, it is a considerable cost. At this time, it is one the government is not planning to proceed with.
MR. MICHEL SAMSON: So that is a no. Back to user fees. We made it up to driver abstracts on your list. What else do you have?
MR. LEBLANC: I thought we did them all, but perhaps we didn't. We had insurance agent fees which are being increased from $25 a year to $100 a year, that is in line with the national average of $91 a year. That is going to raise $200,000 in this fiscal year.
MR. SAMSON: Could you just repeat that, how much was it before?
MR. LEBLANC: It was $25 a year to $100 a year. There is considerable administration with this, the department is required to not only register people but whenever there is any complaint brought forward to the department, to give you an example, you will have a life insurance person selling a policy to a new one, they are not supposed to openly solicit people while selling life insurance to replace other people's policies, they are supposed to ensure that they use professionalism in their approach. Sometimes there are complaints coming from life insurance agents that other agents have replaced their policies without due regard to the client's interest or the investment that they have already put into it. Our department would have to investigate that. Some of them have been shown to be valid, others have been reviewed and dismissed, but there is some supervision that happens in this. We are the agency that does that.
I will mention to the member, there were a couple of questions asked regarding institutions and fees, which is also in here, that I mentioned to the member for Sackville-Cobequid I would be getting for him. So that is another aspect, the member can recall that conversation I had with the previous questioner.
The subsequent one, recovering costs, is in fuel dye. This is where we are paying for dye to market tax exempt. As such, we will stop paying that. It will have a cost savings in this year of $75,000.
MR. SAMSON: I want to go back to motor vehicle compliance. You said you had 11 employees, you are cutting 5 and you will have 6 remaining.
MR. LEBLANC: Those are inspectors, there is still some clerical, support staff to that, but those are the inspectors.
MR. SAMSON: So you have six inspectors to cover the entire province.
MR. LEBLANC: That is correct.
MR. SAMSON: Where are they located?
MR. LEBLANC: They are spread out throughout the province.
MR. SAMSON: Do you have any in Cape Breton?
MR. LEBLANC: I would think so, I don't have the list in front of me. I am sure that we do.
MR. SAMSON: Let me guess, you have a staff person who could probably give us that information right off the top.
MR. LEBLANC: Mr. Chairman, I will have to bring the honourable member onto staff because I am sure that next year we can make sure we have all the answers. I don't think he is going to resign his seat, so we will probably have to make sure that we bring the staff.
MR. SAMSON: So you have no idea where these inspectors are?
MR. LEBLANC: They are throughout the province. Obviously there are some in Cape Breton.
MR. SAMSON: Let's say there is one in Cape Breton. How is that one inspector going to do this roadside inspection and auditing function that you are saying is going to be much more efficient than the 11? Having spoken to a couple of them, they were tapped out as it was and admitted openly that they were not capable of doing their job because it was too much for them to do by themselves. Now you are telling me you have cut the workforce in half, and it is going to be more efficient and accomplish more. How can one inspector do a roadside inspection?
MR. LEBLANC: Obviously they will not be doing them by themselves. You can't do that because of safety factors. What we are going to be doing, when we do sites, we will be pooling our resources within the department and doing them in different areas at different times. I will say to the honourable member that if you reduce the level from 11 to 6, obviously there would be less monitoring going on. We also have to recognize that we are trying to live within our means in our department and to provide a service. The focus has been, in the past, more in compliance with visiting motor vehicle inspection stations and ensuring the paperwork has been done properly.
Per our review, and in talking to other provinces, our focus is going to be changing to less of the on-site review of the paperwork and more on road-stop assessments and random checking. We can follow that up with subsequent audits to the locations. I am not saying for a second that having 11 people and doing the same thing wouldn't probably be better, but I want to be honest, we, in the department, are also looking to see where we can save and where we can find a balance that we still feel can deliver the service.
MR. SAMSON: What is the travel allowance for this department?
MR. LEBLANC: For this department or this section?
MR. SAMSON: For those six employees, what travel allowance are they going to have? There are only six and you are going to pool them together so I hope they get a big travel budget.
MR. LEBLANC: Basically on the operation of this, there is not only the savings in the salaries, there will also be the savings in the operations too.
MR. SAMSON: My question is still what travel budget do they have?
MR. LEBLANC: They form a bigger part of the department than specifically just that one section, so their travel is also pooled in with other sectors of the compliancy unit. To say what exactly . . .
MR. SAMSON: Who else travels in compliance? Your secretarial and clerical staff aren't going to travel.
MR. LEBLANC: That section is also part of the compliance division, which also takes in our weighers and people who do the scales and so forth, so that travel is done for the department, that section, as a whole rather than each individual component of it.
MR. SAMSON: So you can't provide me with a number as to what sort of travel budget or allowance?
MR. LEBLANC: We can calculate it, but it was done for the division rather that for individual components.
MR. SAMSON: You do realize where I am going with this in that if you are going to be pooling these six employees throughout this province, if you want three inspectors to do a road inspection in Sydney, obviously two of them are going to have to travel quite a distance, assuming there is one in Cape Breton?
MR. LEBLANC: Last year we had between the weighers and the compliance - the whole division - went from $290,800 to $209,400, so there are savings in that regard, which probably would involve a multitude of different components of travel costs.
MR. SAMSON: So you have cut travel by $81,000?
MR. LEBLANC: Correct.
MR. SAMSON: You indicated the other day you are not building any access centres this year. You didn't build any last year. What do you tell the people of the Strait area - you have two of your colleagues, the members for Inverness and Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury, from that area - they have been waiting now two years, have been put on hold under your government. What do I go back and tell them as to getting an access centre like the other areas in this province have?
MR. LEBLANC: I have told them the same thing that I am saying here today. We are committed to providing that. As we bring Service Nova Scotia on-line which is part of the new reorganization to provide services within counties, within this budget, this one here, that expenditure is not within this budget. We will be moving forward into the future making sure that we go through with that commitment. You are asking me whether it is in this budget. The answer is no. They are also aware of that.
MR. SAMSON: I don't have that much time left, so I don't have time to go through every line item. What services are no longer going to be offered as a result of this budget by your department?
MR. LEBLANC: There was an HST sector, a small service was being provided that we have removed, only one person. It was the HST oversight for the monitoring, moving in, from the GST to the HST. It was a program to make sure that everything flowed through without any problems. The second one was in regard to the PST wind-up. We had considerable numbers of staff on hand when we went to the GST. We kept a lot of those auditors on to do the subsequent audits. That was scheduled to expire at the end of this year. The third is one that we talked considerably about here today which was the bookstore.
MR. SAMSON: So as far as the Registry of Motor Vehicles, all of those different departments, there are no services being cut?
MR. LEBLANC: No.
MR. SAMSON: I think the member for Sackville-Cobequid may have asked this, but are there any fees being implemented to residential tenancies here?
MR. LEBLANC: There is nothing planned for this year. There is a discussion paper coming out shortly. The member for Sackville-Cobequid asked me for an exact date, and I said before the House rises, I am pretty sure that will be out. Subsequently there would be legislation drafted with the intention of having the legislation drafted and introduced in the fall. I stated at that time there were no fees anticipated for this fiscal year.
MR. SAMSON: Since we last spoke last year when I raised this issue, has there been any effort by yourself as the Minister of Business and Consumer Services and as Minister responsible for Acadian Affairs, through your human resources sector, to move towards providing bilingual services for your front-line service providers?
MR. LEBLANC: It is a good question, I think, especially from the member for the Richmond area, very similar to myself, and I am sure the Cheticamp area and Pomquet and even Baie Sainte-Marie area. We have been basically focusing, to be perfectly candid, on bringing forward the budget this year. That has been the preoccupation of our government in the last eight months. This is the second one that has been prepared. I know the member recognizes why especially with the change of government - I started to say the overthrow - back in July. I mentioned to the member last fall that our intent is to try to expand services as much as we can throughout the province and have access into those centres. I can honestly say to the member that our focus is going to start moving more in that direction. Have there been a lot of changes from last fall to this time? I would say the answer is no, although I have been communicating with my colleagues as much as possible that we should try to make a marked effort especially in the Acadian regions if it is possible to have people who can communicate in both of Canada's official languages.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member's time has lapsed. I now pass the floor to the NDP caucus.
The honourable member for Dartmouth North.
MR. JERRY PYE: Mr. Chairman, once again, this year I will be centring around the residential tenancies. I know you have had some brief discussion with respect to the discussion papers that are out there. When we spoke in November during the budget estimates of last year, you did indicate that in fact there was the potential to bring forward some legislation in the spring. Mr. Minister, I do think that is still the intent of your department to do that. I am just wondering where we are with respect to the residential tenancies legislation, and if there have been reports coming in to your department from the stakeholders interested in making sure this legislation comes forward rather quickly?
MR. LEBLANC: The member is accurate when he says that our intention was perhaps to move faster on this. Perhaps to be candid it is the budget that has been occupying most of our time. I will make no excuses for that. It has obviously been a big factor. We have been getting submissions, and people especially have been asking where the process is. I can tell the member that in a very short period of time - and that is soon, I mean within a few weeks - the discussion paper will be out. It is good to have a debate, because first of all it gives people an understanding of what is being proposed, so before we bring in the legislation in the fall, and I think that it is a better way of doing it - you bring the legislation in sometimes without a discussion paper, and you get a lot of good suggestions after. I would rather do it right the first time and go this route.
MR. PYE: Mr. Minister, you are right. I do believe it is important to have these discussions. It is consistent with your Tory blue book of open, transparent government and consultation. There is no question about that. My concern is, will you be holding public meetings or will you, when you put out the discussion paper, be asking for submissions from the stakeholders?
MR. LEBLANC: At this point I believe there have been quite a lot of public hearings on this before, but let me just find out again. I know a lot of work has been done on this, I am just trying to make sure that I can maybe chronolize it, give you details of it. I think for ourselves, the position paper that would go out - let me just get it here - would bring things to a point whereby we can pretty well go with the legislation. As to whether or not we are going to have subsequent public hearings, I guess it will depend to a great extent on what kind of input we are getting. I am not saying no, at the same time, I am wondering how much more we can have. There has been quite a bit of work done on this. At the same time, the member brings up a good point. If we get a lot of suggestions, perhaps it would be wise to do that. Right now I haven't really weighed all the different aspects of it, but I am not ruling it out either.
[1:30 p.m.]
MR. PYE: When you look at the number of tenants that are in the Province of Nova Scotia, and I know the statistical information that your department has on this. In November 1998, I believe it was when we had the Residential Tenancies Act - and I have those books here before me - I do know that submissions were supposed to have a deadline date of November 1998. It gave your department sufficient time to review some of the suggestions and provide the stakeholders with respect to the Residential Tenancies Act. I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, if in fact there is data or information that I as a critic can have or if there is data or information with respect to the compilation of the material that you already have going to those stakeholders?
MR. LEBLANC: I do know that everyone who submitted information, our intention is to make sure they are copied with the position paper. I think they took the time to meet the request and as such we are making sure they get the information. You are asking whether or not a summary of the submissions will be made? Is that what you are referring to?
MR. PYE: When the department had asked for submissions, there was a tremendous number of submissions made. I do know that there was a list of people who participated, who were stakeholders, with respect to this review process. Obviously you received information with respect to the amendments to the Residential Tenancies Act. You received that from those stakeholders out there. What I am asking is, has any of that information gone back to the stakeholders with respect to what your department has compiled?
MR. LEBLANC: My understanding is that the information that has come in has been taken by the staff along with the stakeholders group we have been working with to bring forward a position paper. I realize that before I say that, we will have some differing views in the input we received. Everyone sometimes is looking at it from a different angle, whether they be tenants or whether they be landlords. I think what we are taking out of that is a position that will bring about the proper balance between the two opposite ends because there are two opposite ends, the tenants and the landlords. By putting the position paper out, we will also give people the chance to understand where we are planning to go in a direction before we draft that legislation. I think the position paper in itself will basically allow people to know where we are planning on going and offer their comments. I think this process has been very public. It could have happened a little quicker. I don't disagree with that, and it probably should have. But we are where we are and I am trying to move it forward.
MR. PYE: Mr. Minister, I have notes from a speech by Senator Donald Oliver, Q.C. to the Investment Property Owners' Association of Nova Scotia, it said the senator's view of investment property issues. I want to go to Page 3 of that report, and I don't know if you have it or not.
MR. LEBLANC: No, I don't.
MR. PYE: I want to know if in fact you and your department are in support of comments that were made by him or have been made by him in that speech. He says that it is clear to me that the landlord-tenant act has to be amended. We do agree. Why? Because the tenants in this province have been given too many rights, not only in Nova Scotia, but in most other provinces as well. The fact of the matter is, the domain of landlord-tenant relations in Canada has become more left-wing than most socialist countries in Europe. I am wondering if that is a comment that you espouse or believe in? Is it a comment you weigh any particular value to or your department weighs any particular value to?
MR. LEBLANC: Two things. First of all, it is a democracy and Senator Oliver can say whatever he wants, obviously within the boundaries of the law. So he is entitled to his views. I think when you look at it, the views of this government will be put in the position paper. If I start commenting on different views espoused by others, then basically I think in this situation I am prejudging what the position paper will be. When the position paper comes out, it will show the proper balance between both tenants and landlords. Whether you agree or not, I am not going to start speculating or commenting on Mr. Oliver's comments. He is entitled to his own comments, and he doesn't speak on behalf of the province. I don't think he purported to do so.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just before you ask your next question, I just wish to advise committee members it is 1:35 p.m. We have at least another two hours to get our four hour quota in. Mr. Pye you have 50 minutes remaining in your time. The Liberal caucus will have an hour. That may leave us 10 minutes for the minister to do closing comments if we do just this department today. I just wish to advise you of the time lines.
MR. PYE: I had not intended to use up a great deal of time. I came here simply because I want to talk about residential tenancies because I represent an area which has a high residential development that is densely residential, with multi-unit apartment complexes. I want to go on to a further track with the minister with respect to the Investment Property Owners' Association. I do know that they sent this off to the minister, and it says the honourable Minister of Business and Consumer Affairs, Neil LeBlanc. They sent this off to you on February 23, 2000. I want to just make a statement in their summary. On Page 6 they say, however we believe the time for change especially with rent arrears is well overdue, and note that your department has agreed with our recommendations.
I am wondering if your department has made any agreement with respect to the Residential Tenancies Act - and arrears is a component of that Tenancies Act - and if in fact, you have had that conversation with them and have agreed with their recommended changes, before there has been a public consultation process or an amendment to the Residential Tenancies Act or a Law Amendments Committee hearing?
MR. LEBLANC: We have had meetings with the Investment Property Owners' Association of Nova Scotia. They requested a meeting with me, and I have met with them. I meet with as many groups as I can accommodate within my schedule. Obviously we are saying from the start that there is a diversity of different opinions, both from the property owners, from the landlords and the tenants. When the position paper comes out, I think people will see the proper balance in there. Probably no matter what we do we will have people on one side or the other that will not agree with the position that we will take. That is why we are putting out a position paper, to garner public opinion, and also to have people have an appreciation of what we are putting forward. I will state upfront that if as much as possible, if people want to meet with me, I try to keep an open mind, and I don't try to preclude myself from meeting with groups who have different agendas. At least I think I owe them the latitude of doing that, and the same thing, if there are tenant groups that want to meet with me, I would try to make myself available.
We are going to do the right things for the right reasons in regard to this Act. When we make it public, everyone will still have their chance to have their say. I can honestly say when I have meetings, it is not to allow myself to be duly influenced by anyone making suggestions, but at the same time, I am willing to listen.
MR. PYE: Mr. Minister, that is true, and I don't want to imply it was you. It was stated that the department has agreed with their recommended changes. I believe that in fact the openness and the process you and your government espouse to carry on is very important, because after all, you should meet with all those interested stakeholders, particularly in the field of property owners and tenants with respect to the Residential Tenancies Act. But what I am saying here is that what has happened, in my opinion, is that the Investment Property Owners' Association gives me the impression in their summary, and I may be wrong, that they have had this very good consultation with your department and that this consultation with their department with respect to their recommended changes in the Residential Tenancies Act, is favourable, because, it says that the department has agreed with our recommended changes.
I am wondering, Mr. Minister, have you or your department actually recommended changes to them, and what recommended changes have you agreed to with the Investment Property Owners' Association of Nova Scotia, without hearing the other side?
MR. LEBLANC: I am not aware that we have agreed to anything with the organization. I don't have a copy of the letter in front of me - people are always writing to request meetings. If the member could give me a copy of it, I could probably find it in my own files. I am saying, up front, that when we are meeting with groups, I am very cognizant of the fact that we have more than one side to every issue. It is my job, as minister, to make sure we find a balance between tenants and landlords, and I think, perhaps, when we revamp the legislation that they both have valid concerns that should be addressed. I don't belittle that. My job is to make sure that I am impartial in how I deal with it, and the staff comes forward
with a position paper that reflects those discussions that took place, both within the policy paper that went out and the stakeholders groups that we discuss these things with.
MR. PYE: Mr. Minister, I appreciate that comment. I just want to go back to their summary, and they do say that we also recognize the political sensitivity of change, especially legislative change. It is such a sensitive issue, therefore I don't want to belabour this, but it still gives me the impression that a particular group has the ear of the Department of Business and Consumer Services, whereby other particular groups may not have that ear when they make statements in their summary to the fact that the department has agreed with their recommendations.
That is significantly important, Mr. Minister, because we know that the legislation hasn't come forward with respect to changes in the Residential Tenancies Act. We have a host of recommendations within that report that they have sent you. All I would like to know is if your department has agreed to the recommended changes? What recommended changes has your department agreed to, with them?
MR. LEBLANC: Two things, first of all, we haven't told any stakeholders groups that we agreed with anything. The position paper will come out. I am being candid when I say that. I meet with groups and I think it is important to do that. I remember the meeting, I was very careful to ensure that I listened to what they had to say and not offer comments. Whatever interpretation they have of that - I don't have the letter in front of me so it is difficult for me to say; I can find it in my files I am sure, you mentioned the date, some time in February, it wouldn't take long to find it. I want to go back, when I meet with groups, I have to have an open mind but I have to ensure that I don't prejudice any position of impartiality that I have, especially in regard to this legislation. I will make a comment that when they talk about this being sensitive legislation, it is sensitive. There are probably over 100,000 units . . .
MR. PYE: There are 98,500.
MR. LEBLANC: . . . of people who are governed under the Residential Tenancies Act. This literally affects hundreds of thousands of people in this province. When you say that it is sensitive, it is sensitive. I think what we have to do is find a balance. We all agree that the Act needs to be updated, no one disagrees with that. There are components of it that are antiquated and probably have to be modernized. I have noticed one thing, obviously, there are two tugs in this one, both from the tenants' side and the landlord side. We have to make sure that we find the balance.
MR. PYE: Mr. Minister, I am pleased to hear those kinds of comments. You are absolutely right, according to their report there are 98,500 apartment units in Nova Scotia, and a $3.5 billion asset to the province and to those individuals. When I was reading this report, one particular part of this report that struck me, with respect to arrears. I want you
to know, once again, I represent an area that has high density residential development, an area in Dartmouth North that is densely developed with multi-unit apartment complexes. You are very much aware of that. I do get a number of landlord-tenant issues. I want you to know that there are some excellent landlords and property owners out there. I also want you know there are some very unsavoury apartment owners as well, people who don't respect their communities nor the tenants who live in them.
There seems to be what is pictured as a very growing concern - and I know IPOANS had touched on this - with respect to the loss of revenue as a result of arrears in payments from tenants, and it is costing them a lot of money. They go on to say that as a result of not getting that revenue in to their operation, it prevents them from doing renovations and repairs and maintaining and keeping their physical structures up to standard. On the other hand, there are also some very real reasons why tenants, from time to time, may not be able to pay their rent on a specific date, even though there is a contractual agreement to do that.
What I am finding from a number of tenants is that at one time landlords used to be rather lenient and if you were 15 days in arrears there wouldn't be a major problem, they wouldn't do much about it, they would just take your word and hope that you would pay up. Most frequently what is happening now is that 4 or 5 days after, it is going into credit agencies. I don't want to name any one particular credit agency, although I do know that one particular credit agency seems to be getting the bulk of the delinquent rental payments that are coming through. What happens is that a tenant may be 4 days late, as a result, that goes on their credit rating. When they go to have their credit rating checked - all of a sudden there may be the need to go for a loan or something to help them off for this short period of time, until other monies come through - they can't get that loan without a co-signer, and their credit was normally good, because the landlord has already put it in.
This is one of the reasons - going back to the prepared text to you of February 23, 2000 - because they talk a lot about the arrears they have in the province. That is the reason why I wanted to come back to this and say, if your department has agreed to their recommended changes, was that one of those recommended changes, without hearing the tenants' side of this issue? To me that is significantly important when a stakeholder, particularly the property owners, have an ear to government, and other people who normally don't go to government or normally don't have the wherewithal or the access to take advantage of that, are left there in the cold and not knowing. I am wondering, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the minister, if he can respond to that particular issue.
MR. LEBLANC: I think you are bringing up a good point, especially when you are listening to the property owners, because there is not an organization of tenants. I think that that is one of the reasons, especially for myself, to keep an open mind, because there is not the balance, when people make presentations to me. I will say that I always find, as a minister, that people always wish to meet with me and make presentations, and I try as much as possible to ask questions which are pointed, but not show which direction I am going in. I
think it is important to keep yourself impartial. I have noticed, in the past that sometimes people have a tendency to say you have made your decision or you showed partiality, when you didn't. People see what they want to see.
In regard to this one aspect of it, one of the things I noticed they talked about is the collection of overdue rent. It is an issue that is a difficult one. You bring up the human side of it. There are probably examples of people who probably abuse the system, who will probably push it to the limit every month and use the appeal process through the Act to the utmost. There are other people who find themselves, through no fault of their own, under serious situations, what do they do? I think it is perhaps more so the latter you are referring to, the human side of people who aren't looking to abuse anything, who just find themselves maybe between work and basically trying to find themselves the