[Page 557]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, the Committee of the Whole House on Supply will now be called to order.

The Acting Deputy Government House Leader.

HON. WILLIAM DOOKS: Mr. Chairman, at this time we will continue with the estimates of the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Clare.

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to continue where I left off. I want to begin this afternoon with the snow and ice control budget. This past winter in Nova Scotia certainly was, I would say, highly demanding on the department's snow and ice control budget. I understand our local office in Clare - I'm sure we were not the only one throughout our province that overspent their winter budget for snow and ice control this past season. From all the media reports, Clare was certainly not the only one that overspent their budget.

My question to the minister is, what happens in this type of situation? Does the department cut their summer maintenance budget to our local office and to other offices across the province? Does the department cut their summer maintenance budget in order to make up the difference on their overspending on snow and ice control or does the department pick up the overall spending costs?

[Page 558]

HON. MURRAY SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, just before I answer the question, yesterday there was a request for information around the Building Canada Fund, some information they were looking for there and also the base funding agreement. I'll table those for the member's information in case he wants to copy it.

The member's absolutely right, we had an extraordinary year this year with regard to the weather we've had, the amount of salt used over time in the departments right across the whole province. What would happen, if a region, for example, as the honorable member asked about his, if it was overspent with regard to its winter budget, it would either be made up within the department or there would be a request for an extra appropriation of funds to cover that for the department.

I do want to say that although we had a particularly severe winter this year and we were over budget, the winter before, we actually had a very good winter and we were under budget. Over the years, we never know from one year to the next what type of weather we'll have and what type of winter we'll have, but to answer the honourable member's question, the local staff in that region wouldn't necessarily suffer as a result of that, it would be dealt with in the department from funds within the department as a result of moving money around within our existing budget.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased with the information. I guess the obvious question is, as the minister indicated, the snow and ice control budget this year for the department overall certainly was overspent. I'm just curious, as the minister indicated the department basically ends up picking up that extra cost. What I'm trying to find out for this past winter, this past year, within the 2007-08 budget, was the department able to find the funding within their budget or did they have to provide a special request to government in order to make up the difference? Maybe the minister could indicate whether or not the department was able to find that overspending, to pick up that overspending within his budget or they had to seek some additional funding from government?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to answer the member's question, we were actually $32 million overspent. I think it is fair to say and I'm sure the honourable member would agree that in a normal year if you were over by a lot lesser amount of maybe $2 million, $3 million or $4 million, you could probably find it within your existing budget within your department somehow and try to move those funds around. In this particular case we would have had to ask for extra appropriation funds, which we did. I just want to give an example, this past year and the year before, in a normal year I guess we would use around 240,000 tons of salt and this year we actually used 360,000 tons, so you can quickly see how the budget would be well overspent as a result of the very severe winter we had. As I'm reminded now, actually, this year it was a record high for us in this province.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I just want to go quickly to the Supplementary Detail on Page 23.5, the budget for snow and ice control. My question to the minister is, does the

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department have a formula they use to determine how much funding is given to our different local officers for snow plowing, for salting, for sanding? I guess what I'm trying to find out is, is there a general formula used by the department to provide funding all around the province?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I believe the honourable member was talking about the winter budget only or was he talking about the budget in general? The winter budget. What we would do is look at the last five years in regard to winter budgets throughout the province. We would take the highest and lowest and take an average from those three and that would determine then what each area would get. In regard to a budget for areas throughout the province, a general budget, what is taken into consideration and what determines what each area will get would depend on, obviously, the kilometres of roads in each area under their jurisdiction, the types of roads, whether they are 100- Series Highways or right on through to gravel roads and, of course, the amount of traffic that would be on those types of roads throughout the area. All of those factors would be taken into consideration when it's determined what each area of the province would receive as their allocation of funds.

MR. GAUDET: I want to thank the minister for his answer, his information. I want to move to a different topic, I want to talk a little bit about bridges. The minister indicated in his opening comments, the department maintains around 4,100 bridges across our province. We know some of our bridges are over 100 years old. Some of these bridges certainly don't meet current weight and traffic volume standards. Some of them need extensive repairs. Some of them have been destroyed or damaged by floods in recent years and we've seen bridges collapsing around the province. So allow me to talk about one of these bridges that did collapse.

On August 13, 2003, the Meteghan River bridge in Clare did collapse in the river. Luckily, nobody was seriously injured. This bridge is located on Trunk 1, so there's definitely a high volume of traffic on that road. Again, it was a miracle that nobody was seriously hurt that day. Again, looking back at this bridge collapsing in the river you have to ask yourself if this could have been prevented. I understand the department has staff, has bridge engineers inspecting bridges on a regular basis. I'm sure, depending on their structure ratings, good, bad, fair or poor, some bridges probably will be inspected more than others.

My first question to the minister is, how often are bridges in Nova Scotia inspected? Are these inspection reports available to the general public? I will begin with that one.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for the question. In regard to the specific bridge he's talking about, you're right, there has been a panel bridge in place there since the bridge was destroyed, as you mentioned. The plan within the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal right now is to replace that bridge in 2009 with a new bridge. There is an annual inspection done on bridges each year, as well, a more thorough inspection will be done every three to four years. If there was a request from the

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local communities or if a request came into the department, we would certainly provide that information to the honourable member or to his constituents if they would ask for it.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, again, certainly after the bridge collapsed in Meteghan River, many people did ask about the bridge inspection. I was just curious, from the department's bridge inspection reports that are carried out - I'm sure every day somewhere in this province - does the general public have access to those inspections? Can they go on-line? Can they find out if these bridge inspections are available to the general public or are these bridge inspections only kept inside the department - I'm just trying to find out - are these inspection reports available to the public or aren't they?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for the question. Yes, we would answer in a positive manner in regard to a specific request with regard to those inspections. It would be available if the honourable member wanted it, it would certainly be made available to him. Again, I just want to point out that inspections have been done on the bridge that the honourable member is talking about, it has been deemed to be safe, and our plan is to replace that bridge in 2009.

MR. GAUDET: Again, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure the general public would encourage the government, or the department staff, to keep doing regular bridge inspections to assure the general public that these bridges are safe.

Again, in Clare, especially in the last couple of years - and I've been requesting on a regular basis or making enquiries, especially to do a follow-up from concerned citizens about the safety on two bridges in our community. The two bridges in question are the Salmon River Bridge and the St. Benoni Bridge. The requests that I have been getting have always been, how safe are these two bridges. So my question to the minister is, would it be possible to request the most recent bridge assessment reports for these two bridges, the Salmon River Bridge and the St. Benoni Bridge?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for the question. Yes, upon the honourable member's request, we will endeavour to get those reports and make them available to the member as quickly as possible.

MR. GAUDET: I want to go back to the Supplementary Detail on Page 23.5, Highways and Bridges. The department is planning to spend $12.8 million on bridge maintenance this year. My question to the minister is, would it be possible to get a list of the bridges that will receive some repairs in 2008 and 2009?

[4:45 p.m.]

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the department would obviously have a list of bridges throughout the province that we would want to do a certain type of work on. There may be

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a bridge today that we determine we're going to do work on within a week, and maybe another bridge, through an inspection, it is determined that there may be a larger need on a different bridge. So we wouldn't really have that list available at this point. It's more of a moving list and as inspections are done, bridges would be put on, and whatever the priority would be, depending on the type of work needed, then we would allocate the funds for that bridge.

MR. GAUDET: Thank you. So I guess moving from bridge maintenance, I'm looking at new capital funding to construct new bridges. How much is the department planning to spend on new bridge construction this year, and again, would it be possible to get a list of those new capital projects for 2008-09?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, again, we would have all those bridges in the province that require some sort of work on a list, then when it comes to the capital, we would have a list of bridges that we would hope we would be able to at least consider applying this capital money toward. I would be able to tell you, at this point, which ones we have tenders out for. We're in the design stages, as well, for some of the other bridges, so we really don't have that list yet as to what we'll be doing the work on. Some of those are in the design stages now, so it depends on what cost they come in at and how far we can use the $36 million, which was allocated this year for capital.

I do want to say, as well, to the honourable member, that we've increased money for bridges again this year.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, just to be clear, the department has a list for new bridges that they're looking at constructing in this given year, and they have a list of bridges where they're going to be carrying out some maintenance, some general repairs on those bridges, am I correct to assume that? The department is working off two different lists, one which would include all new construction and the other one would be work carried out for repairs, for general maintenance on these purchases.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I guess one of the examples I will use is Sawmill Creek Bridge, which we intended on doing last year, for example. There were some issues that came up, whether they were foundation issues or issues that actually prevented that bridge from being done last year, so projects like that get moved to the following year. Projects that we weren't able to do last year, we are doing those this year. So, again, we don't actually have a particular list that I could say these are the bridges we are going to do this year. We have X number of dollars in our budget that we have allocated for capital. The department will ascertain over the next while actually which bridges we feel we can do with the money we have and then proceed from there.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister, once the department has reviewed the request for this given year, they have reviewed the different projects that

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have been submitted, they have received all the engineering work, would it be possible for the department, for the minister at a later date, to provide me with a copy of the list of the bridges that will be receiving some work in this current year?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, if you are asking if we can provide that list to you later on this year, yes.

MR. GAUDET: I want to move to another area. I want to talk about the K-roads. Some government roads, especially located in rural Nova Scotia, have been delisted from receiving maintenance work from the department. These K-class roads receive limited work, if any at all, that is carried out by the department. I am sure I am not the only one who is receiving requests from individuals who are living on some of these K-class roads, asking the department to carry out some work on these delisted roads. So my first question to the minister is, how do roads get delisted and classified as K-class roads?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I have only been in the department about six months now so certainly it predates me and it predates my colleague in regard to when this would happen. Actually, we understand the last road that would have been delisted in Nova Scotia would have been in 1984, or earlier. I can tell you that there have been none delisted since then. So what process was used prior to that, I don't know. I know there are roads, I have them in my own constituency, that are the type of roads the honourable member talks about. I get a lot of requests, as an MLA, to try to have the department provide some sort of service. I am sure that the honourable member would agree, obviously I believe that back then those roads were delisted because they weren't used. There were no longer any homes on them. There was really no need, I guess, at that point, to service to those roads. I am only assuming this.

Presently, there would have to be a request to myself, as minister, to delist a road, and I haven't had any since I have been here, and my understanding is there haven't been any for years. I don't know what the process was prior, but I can tell you that the process now is they would have to come through us, and we haven't received any since the time I have been here. Again, we are talking about roads, I believe, that would no longer be inhabited; there would no longer be homes on them; they would no longer be used for any type of work; and I suppose, over the years, the department no longer provided service because it wasn't needed.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister for that information. Since I have been involved in politics, I keep getting calls making reference to K-class roads but I've never asked or found out, you know, where they come from, how the roads get delisted and added on to this list. I know for a fact, Mr. Minister, there are a few K-class roads in Clare where there are people living on these roads. I guess my next question to the minister is, does the department spend any funding on carrying out work on K-class roads?

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MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the area manager would have the ability and discretion, within his or her own budget, to spend up to $1,000 on a K-class road but, again, I just want to reiterate that I think that K-class roads - and I'm not sure of the ones the member is talking about - but certainly K-class roads where there are no longer any homes, it's not used for any type of service, it wouldn't make sense for the department to spend scarce budget dollars on maintaining roads that really are not used by anyone. Obviously, the member mentioned earlier that some of these roads that he's talking about do have homes on them, but the answer is the area manager would have some discretion, within their own budget, but for K-class roads, it would only be up to $1,000.

MR. GAUDET: I guess the reason I was asking that question, I have one individual who has a home in St. Alphonse. It's on the Bear Cove Road. It's a K-class road and every winter, especially when the snow starts coming down, they usually call, you know, is it possible for the department staff to come and plow us out? I know a few years ago they were covered with snow and I know that the department staff did actually go in and try to help them to move the snow around. So I'm glad to hear that, maybe through the area supervisor, there might be some funding to help on these special types of requests.

Again continuing on roads, I want to talk a little bit about gravel roads. Again, I'm sure, as a rural MLA, and for all the rural MLAs in this House, Mr. Chairman, this is certainly an area that you receive a lot of calls about from people living on gravel roads and this is basically throughout the year. There's no particular time I guess. Of course, especially in the Spring when the roads are thawing out and getting very muddy, certainly the volume of calls increases. I guess I'm looking for information on the department's policy on gravel roads. This question has been raised many times. Does the department have a moratorium on paving gravel roads, or does the department pave? Do they pave any gravelled roads and, if so, which ones and, if not, why not? So I guess I'll start off by asking the minister if he could comment on that.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, just for clarification I did want to mention to the honourable member that the definition of a K-class road is a listed, unmaintained road where, in special circumstances, the area manager or supervisor can spend up to $1,000 a year on it. So maybe I didn't make that quite clear, but that's the definition of a K-class road.

When it comes to gravel roads, you know, we've get a tremendous amount of calls and letters from members here in the House about gravel roads and, obviously, from both sides and a lot of constituents across the province. The opportunity for us to cost-share in gravel road pavement is obviously with the municipalities through the subdivision-type roads. So there's an opportunity for the province to take part in that. The budget was increased to $2 million, which allows municipalities to move on that initiative. I guess you could say there is an unwritten policy within the department that we're trying to, as opposed to going out and paving new gravel roads now, we're trying to maintain the paved roads we have in the province. With the increase in the price of fuel that we see, with the increase in

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trucking costs, the increase that we see in the tenders, it's a real challenge to try to catch up and maintain the roads we presently have.

As I mentioned the other night during estimates to the honourable member for Queens, if we did have the ability to pave more roads now, that means we would require additional operational money for maintenance over the next number of years as well. More paving would be great today, but it would also need additional dollars required to maintain those roads in the coming years.

I do want to say, as well, although I know a lot of people will build homes on gravel roads and then they become - whether it's the dust or whatever - they seek to have those roads paved. A lot of the times - I know in my own area, the OSs and the area manager will encourage people to continue to support the gravel roads in their particular area because they're able to maintain them locally as opposed to waiting for funding provincially, for capital money.

I think there are a lot of good gravel roads in Nova Scotia that are maintained well by the department staff. I know there have been cases that were brought before this House that aren't so good. I encourage those members to work with their local OSs and area managers, as I've done over the last 10 years, to encourage them, through their own maintenance money, to deal with that issue. We're doing everything we can to maintain the present paving projects we have in the province. The capital money goes to those roads, so it's very difficult to look at paving more roads now when we're doing everything we can to maintain the present number of paved roads we have today.

[5:00 p.m.]

MR. GAUDET: Just to be clear, I understood the department does pave gravel roads, these are sometimes subdivision roads that are submitted to the department for paving, but outside of any municipal arrangements, the department has a moratorium on paving gravel roads. Am I correct to assume that? I'm just looking for clarification. Government doesn't pave any gravel roads at this time.

MR. SCOTT: I thank the honourable member for the questions, I think. Basically, I would say the honourable member is right. I won't restate everything I just said a moment ago. Obviously there will be times when there will be extenuating circumstances, or specific situations that need to be addressed; I think the honourable members knows exactly what I'm going to say, and that's the issue around O'Connell Drive where the department made a decision, for various reasons, with the school on that road. It was under provincial jurisdiction as a result of school buses trying to get into that school. All the issues were brought before the department, the department made a decision that it would pave that gravel road. I would suggest that only in very extenuating circumstances would the department, in the present day, at least, with the budgets we have, be able to consider paving gravel roads.

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MR. GAUDET: Again, on gravel roads, I'm just curious if the department has a policy on grading gravel roads. The reason I'm asking this question to the minister, every Spring, late Spring and summer, Fall, I keep getting calls - I'm sure I'm not the only one getting calls - from residents who are living on gravel roads, calling to request that their road needs to be graded. These residents, I guess, they just get frustrated because every year they have to keep calling the local office to have them come out and grade their road. Sometimes their roads are usually graded in late Spring, sometimes back in the middle of the summer and then sometime in the Fall before the winter comes in. I guess I'm trying to find out from the minister, does the department have a policy on grading roads?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you to the member opposite. I would receive the same calls, over the last 10 years, that the honourable member receives as well and those same concerns and same type of questions. I can tell the honourable member that normally in the Spring, on gravel roads, depending on the weather, the department obviously would have to wait until the road was dry enough so that they actually could be graded. I think we would agree that there wouldn't be much point in grading a road that's going to be mostly mud and turning up a lot of debris in the road that otherwise wouldn't happen if the road was dry. So normally they would wait for a dry road, for the road to dry, give it a grading. Not long after that there would be chloride spread on that road and, of course, by going in and grading again right after that, you would only take the chloride off. So, hopefully, other than some patching throughout the summer, if need be, gravel patching, then it probably wouldn't be touched again until early Fall and given another grading. So I think that's probably the standard way it's done.

I know that, again, those calls I receive myself as an MLA over the years - I found it very beneficial to meet with the area manager and the OS, and I'm sure the honourable member has as well, just to go over those roads together in a vehicle, to show them what they're like, and look at the concern the people have. I know it's as much in their best interest as it is in ours, as it is in the citizens, to have these roads in as good repair as possible. My experience has been that when I work with the OS and the area manager, we can achieve the best results for the residents but, again, you know, it would depend on the weather for the year. I've had calls from people saying, why don't they get down and grade this road. It's because it has rained, probably, for two weeks before that, and it would be just nothing but mud. It's pretty difficult for staff to do, but if conditions are right, I know they do the best they can. They will do the grading and chloriding, and the grading in the Fall, before winter.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree with the minister. His staff can only go so far but, you know - expecting to grade a gravel road, especially after it has rained for several days, you can't allow a grader to go in there and start grading mud. That's practically impossible and sometimes, as MLAs, we do get calls, expectations from the general public, and especially from individuals living on some gravel roads. Sometimes you have to acknowledge that some of these requests, unfortunately - you have to wait until the road dries up some before you send a grader out.

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Mr. Chairman, again I want to bring this to the attention of the minister and I'm sure - I'm just thinking of my colleague, the member for Digby-Annapolis - I want to talk about the alders, the shrubs and the tall grass along our roads. Again, I often get calls from people asking when the department will be cutting the alders, or the shrubs, or the tall grass near the side of the roads. It certainly is a safety issue. When you're trying to pull out of a driveway, unfortunately you can't see. We know what danger that could bring upon. Also when you're driving along the road, and all of a sudden an animal runs across the road in front of your vehicle, we know that certainly could present some problems as well.

Usually at home, Mr. Chairman, and throughout the summer, Mr. Minister, I see your staff trimming the side of the roads and usually this is only done once throughout the entire summer or early Fall. So my question to the minister, is it the department's policy to mow or trim the side of the road only once a year by your department, or if there's no policy? I'm just curious if there is a policy, and what it is if there is one.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the member opposite for the question. The member would know that there are two ways that brush cutting and ditching - the brush cutting particularly and the bush cutting he's talking about - gets done in this province. One is through our own staff and equipment. In fact, I mentioned in my opening comments yesterday that we're purchasing two more pieces of this type of equipment that's required in this province. So we would have our own staff, with our own equipment, who would go out and do a lot of that work. We also, through the RIM money, the $20 million RIM funds that are available, would hire private contractors as well, in parts of the province, to do the type of work the honourable member is bringing forward but, generally speaking, yes, I guess our policy would be that we would do that type of work once a year. I would want to say as well that if there are specific areas that the honourable member is thinking about, or if there were specific situations throughout the summer that are either dangerous or the member feels are hazardous, or the citizens do, I would encourage them to contact the local depot, the area manager supervisor, to bring it to their attention because I'm sure if that situation has arisen, they will do all they can to ensure our roads are safe, but basically we will do it once a year unless otherwise required.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the information. I know my time is winding down for this part.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Two minutes.

MR. GAUDET: I just want to touch on the RIM funding, how much RIM funding is in the department's budget this year?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say, and I'm sure the honourable member would agree, of all the initiatives within the Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal budget, I think the piece I see that's the most well received, at least in rural Nova Scotia, is

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this RIM money. When it comes to ditching and gravelling, some guardrail work, the work the honourable member is talking about, I think that's well received in rural Nova Scotia. In fact, I hear in spreader patching, I hear a lot of good comments from citizens about the great work that's done with the RIM money. I will say that the program was $9 million, but this year the budget will be $20 million for that, and I think that we'll probably see a lot of good results from that expenditure of $20 million, right across the province, and I think citizens will agree that it's money well spent.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to hear that the RIM funding has gone up. I guess with this additional funding - I'm just curious - will the field offices across the province receive the same level of RIM funding this year as last year, or will they be expecting an increase in their RIM funding budget?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, as I said, when RIM started, the original budget was $9 million. It's up to $20 million now. It was $20 million last year. So those areas would receive the same money this year as they did last year, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time for the honourable member has expired.

The honourable member for Queens.

MS. VICKI CONRAD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and it's nice to be back, maybe, and I just want to say thank you again and thank you to your staff. I mean, you sat here yesterday through four hours, was it? No, almost four hours, yes, and I didn't see you take a break at all, so I admire you for just sitting there and advising the minister as well. I know my colleague here talked and, yes, you, too, Mr. Chairman, the chair revolves a little bit so you never know - well, if you're not paying attention.

I know my colleague talked a lot about gravel roads so I would like to continue on in that vein just for a little bit. I have a gravel road in my riding. It's the Llewellyn Road and I've been in the Llewellyn Road, it is off Highway No. 103 and the Llewellyn Road actually is also home to a nearby quarry in Middlewood. I spoke with department staff about this particular road over the last two years and many residents have contacted me about this particular road.

While some of the general work to gravel roads, and that particular gravel road, is getting done, what I'm hearing is because of the quarry and the amount of traffic from the trucks bringing their materials out of the quarry, they use the Llewellyn Road as a short cut. It makes sense for them to do that economically, to get where they're going in different parts of the riding. However, what's happening, as you can imagine, is there's a lot of wear and tear on the Llewellyn Road, and there have been suggestions to me that perhaps rather than the basic grading and surfacing gravel that happens, sometimes twice yearly, that there should be a strengthening of that road base because of the wear and tear. I am wondering if

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you can tell me how strengthening of a road is determined over and above the maintenance that happens on gravel roads, and whether on this particular road, because of the heavy volume of the truck traffic there, how that will be determined.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the honourable member for the question. I want to just say I didn't know where the Llewellyn Road was and I don't think my colleague to the left did, but I can tell you that my Director of Finance knew exactly where it was. So I was pretty impressed there, that's great.

Normally what would happen is when an area manager and the OSs are given their allotment for the year, under the RIM, if it is a gravel road, then they would be able to take the funding out of that RIM money to actually do the type of work the honourable member is talking about. I am sure the honourable member would agree that there are various levels of maintenance required on different types of roads depending on the traffic, depending on the condition of the road, depending what kind of activity may be on it, whether it is a road that is used for woods operations, obviously the weather would play a big factor in that as well. But the area manager in conjunction with the OS who receive the RIM money budget for the year would submit a list to us and the monies are allocated to the areas. They would have the discretion, I guess, to use that money as they see the need within their own area. Because it is a gravel road, it would be done locally, I guess is the answer.

[5:15 p.m.]

MS. CONRAD: The minister may be aware that back in 2003, the riding boundaries were changed. The riding of Lunenburg West and the riding of Queens were reconfigured. A result of that, or one of the results of that reconfiguration with the boundaries has been a challenge for me, as a member, because I am talking with two area supervisors and it appears - to be perfectly honest, I have had wonderful communication with DOT staff both in Queens County, on the Queens side, and also on the Lunenburg side, absolutely without a doubt - but it does appear that the mandates of the area supervisors are slightly different. So it is a challenge for me, as a member, to explain to residents who live in the Queens County end of the riding and to explain similar things to the member, or the residents, in the Lunenburg West end of my riding.

An example would be bush cutting. I hear many residents who call me from the Lunenburg West end of the riding and they will say, look, how come we are not getting the same type of service when it comes to bush cutting along our highways as you are getting in Queens County. I believe that the area supervisor in Queens has made a concerted effort to really move forward with bush cutting all along Highway No. 103, and also along Route 8, which is incredible. Both sides of Highway No. 103, as you leave the Lunenburg County line into Queens, look completely different than on the Lunenburg County side. There is good visibility along Route 8, and I am seeing some much-needed paving upgrades. There is also a lot of bush cutting there as well.

[Page 569]

I have never really asked the question of both area supervisors, you know, what is happening on our end, in the Queens County end, as opposed to what is happening on the Lunenburg County end, so I am wondering if you can tell me how that kind of meshes itself out, if you will, between two departments.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite. I just want to say again, I want to thank the member opposite and also the member for Clare who passed along some good comments about staff because I agree totally. I've always said that the public are really not well aware of the dedicated, professional staff we have, who work in the departments, who they don't get to see very often. I know out in the ridings they do because they see the OS all the time, or they call them, but there are a lot of dedicated staff in the department, and in all the departments here. The sad part is the public don't get an opportunity to see them or know them by name and don't understand the great work they do, but I appreciate your comments and I know they do as well.

I would say, back to the honourable member's question, the honourable member's area, although under the jurisdiction of different operational supervisors, would come under the direction of one area manager. Really, the policy should be the same, the level of service should be the same throughout the honourable member's area, regardless of where the boundaries are between one OS and the other. One OS may have a different priority, one may prefer to see brush cutting and another OS may prefer to see ditching done, someone else may prefer to see shouldering or gravel patching.

I really encourage the honourable member to work with the area manager if you have concerns like that, to discuss them with the area manager and maybe even meet with all the supervisors together, I've done that myself, as well. Sit down with the area managers and the OSs, if they're having a meeting, ask if you can come as well to talk about those issues. You may find there may be some reason why that's happening, but I think you'd find that basically the level of service should be the same across your constituency no matter where the boundaries are between OS jurisdictions. I think probably the proper way to work that through is, if you can't deal with the OS, then probably with the area manager who, I'm sure, would want to work with you to resolve it.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you for that and perhaps it is that I haven't asked that particular question with the area manager. The level of service, I think, is comparable in the sense that I know the priority areas are being looked after. You made mention that perhaps the OS is looking at bush cutting as a priority for that particular section, whereas perhaps in the other section the priority could be ditching, so yes, I can see where those decisions are being made more at the local level. I will follow through and discuss that more thoroughly on the local level, so thank you for that.

It was much appreciated, when you became Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, to get an invite to sit down and discuss with you some of our local

[Page 570]

priorities or what I hear coming into my office as residents' requests, or thoughts around their priorities and all of our priorities. I have to say the previous minister also extended that invite and it's a good way to communicate and start conveying. Can you tell me when we, as members, come to the department, come to the minister and give you our list of priorities - and a lot of times we have either chatted with TIR staff locally or we've travelled the roads ourselves to make sure that when we are submitting a list to the minister, to the department, that it is a comprehensive list and that we're just not asking to have money poured into a road that perhaps goes to the end of nowhere and no one is living on it - so can you tell me, when you receive our priority lists, how a decision is made based on the information you're getting from TIR, because they would have a separate priority list coming into the department saying look, this is the work we need to continue with, this is the work we'd like to start, here is our list, here's your member's list and then here is perhaps another list that has come to your attention from somewhere else, so could you tell me how those decisions are made?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for the question. Obviously in each area an OS would, through their own endeavour to their supervisor, the area manager, submit to them what they believe to be priorities in their areas. That would be passed along through the region, and obviously into Halifax, and that would come from all across the province. The department would do assessments of those roads. There would be an assessment done on the road, for example, the traffic on the road, the condition of the road, the type of work that we require to bring that road up to standard. So that would be the list the department would have and those roads would be listed in areas of priority based on that and based on the traffic and so on.

When the honourable member, for example, submits her list, the department then would run the numbers on your top priorities. What we find a lot of times, the top priorities for the department would be the same as the top priorities for the honourable member. So a lot of times there's really no need to do any more work but if the honourable member had a top priority that was absolutely the priority in the area and it wasn't one necessarily the department had, the department would run the numbers on that as well to see kind of where it fits in, to see if it's anywhere near what the department determines would be the priority and kind of take it from there. Of course, then it depends on the amount of budgeting you would have for each area and we're back again to what I talked about earlier about costs.

I want to make sure that everybody in the House understands, particularly when it comes to paving, because that's what everybody's interest is in really is paving. We've talked about paving in the province, you know, $250,000 per kilometre to $300,000.Keeping in mind that when we talk about petroleum increasing in this province, that means that liquid asphalt goes up. I believe it went from $450 to $685. So that gives you an idea of the additional costs there we're going to face for paving this season. When paving goes up, the contractors who have contracted prior and had been awarded tenders, there's an adjustment in there for their extra costs.

[Page 571]

The truckers through the association who provided work for us also have a fuel adjustment clause which we have a base which is presently $1 a litre and you know what the price of gas is now. So because of the extra cost for them now, we have to adjust up our prices to them as well. Actually with the increase we've seen with that $1, actually now represented a 22 per cent increase that we're facing just for the trucking costs. So there are all kinds of factors that come into play when we look at a priority list for the honourable member's area, for example, her priority list, how we marry them up, then we decide what kind of dollars we have for an area and then, of course, taking into consideration those things I just talked about, those have to be all factored in as well. So you can see there are all kinds of challenges when it comes to determining what work we can do, where we can do it, and when we can do it.

I can tell you and, again, I mentioned the other night as well, we're presently looking at the processes we have in place today for repaving in Nova Scotia and that's being reviewed now. It's being reviewed with the Road Builders Association. One last thing that helps determine the roads in the honourable member's area, for example, would be the number of kilometres of paved roads in that particular riding. So those are all factored in at the end of the day to help us determine which roads we would do in the honourable member's riding, for example.

MS. CONRAD: I'm wondering, too, if there are any other considerations, economical considerations or financial considerations around paving besides the standard formulae that are used in terms of condition, age of roads, the base, the cost of materials and the population of the particular community, what other factors would be used, traffic volume, what type of traffic, how many residents, all of those. I wonder if there are other factors that the department has looked at in the past or perhaps could look at in the future when determining whether a road in a community, a secondary road, should be paved.

I guess what I'm talking about is the economic viability of a community. Because in order for a lot of our rural communities to grow - and certainly we have a number of challenges in our rural communities with out-migration of youth, aging population - we're trying to attract people back into our communities. So infrastructure in and around our communities is a huge attraction - not an attraction, to some people when they're deciding where they may locate or choosing a community to live. So secondary roads play a key factor in people deciding to move into a community or set up a business in a community. Of course, with economic viability, a strong economy in small communities, there is a much larger tax base which gives the government coffers more money to enable us to continue with maintenance or preventive programs with our infrastructure. So, is there that type of consideration taken into all of the costs and all of the formulae that the department uses to determine whether or not a road can get resurfaced or rehabilitated?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Economic Development on an introduction.

[Page 572]

HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for yielding the floor in order that we might introduce some guest who have joined us in the Speaker's Gallery. They are with our Speaker and the Clerk of the House. They are from the Legislative Assembly of Northern Ireland and we're very pleased to have them with us this afternoon. Joining us is Mr. William Hay, who is the MLA and the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly and he's chairman of the Northern Ireland Assembly Commission and he's a member of the Democratic Unionist Party.

Also, Mr. Stephen Moutray MLA, member of the Northern Ireland Assembly Commission, Democratic Unionist Party; Mr. Paul Butler, MLA, member of the Northern Ireland Assembly Commission, Sinn Féin Party; and, the Reverend Dr. Robert Coulter, MLA, member of the Northern Ireland Assembly Commission and Ulster Unionist Party; Mr. Sean Neeson, MLA, member of the Northern Ireland Assembly Commission and member of the Alliance Party. With them are commission staff, Mr. Tony Logue, Clerk of the Assembly Commission; Ms. Frances Leneghan, private secretary to the Speaker; Mr. Hugh Widdis, legal advisor of the Assembly Secretariat.

From the Ottawa staff, Ms. Danielle Labonté, visit coordinator; Ms. Catherine Mathieu, logistics officer; Ms. Kelly-Ann Benoit, protocol officer.

[5:30 p.m.]

Perhaps I could take a moment and explain to our visitors that we are currently considering the estimates of the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. This is a time when the Assembly is in the Committee of the Whole stage and members of the Opposition are allotted certain blocks of time in which they're able to question the minister. The minister has with him key members of his staff to assist in the explanation of the numbers or policies related to the estimates.

Once every department has been dealt with, with the exception of one - in this instance - then, of course, all of those spending resolutions are assembled and they constitute the Supply unto Her Majesty for the expenditures of the coming years.

So, we're very pleased to have you join us this afternoon. We hope that you enjoy your visit to Nova Scotia. This, as you would know by now, is the oldest Assembly in Canada and we are celebrating the 250^th Anniversary of democracy in the Province of Nova Scotia. We're delighted to have you with us this afternoon and we wish you well in your visit. Thank you for joining us. (Applause)

MR. SCOTT: Welcome to our guests, it's a privilege to have you here. The honourable member who introduced you didn't get a chance to tell you who it was that would not be appearing. I think he deliberately left that out.

[Page 573]

Anyway, back to the honourable member's question. I guess the question was, are there opportunities for outside the general determination of which roads are paved and what processes are determined that we use in that particular road? Are there opportunities for extenuating circumstances or other considerations that could be given with regard to paving a specific road? The answer is yes and I'll give an example.

The honourable member asked if, for example, it could be for economic reasons and I'm sure the department would take that into consideration. I'm not sure if it was about two years ago, I believe, that the Department of Tourism embarked upon a task force of sorts that included the Department of Transportation. In their deliberations part of that was in regard to transportation initiatives throughout the province and how that affected tourism. For example, I know that part of their recommendation was on specific roads in the province which included Peggy's Cove, the Cabot Trail, and I believe there were two or three other roads I remember reading. Those were two roads.

In fact, after eight years the Peggy's Cove Road, with eight kilometres of paving being done this year, will actually complete that whole project of around 60 kilometres. That's kind of an area where you would see specific to an industry - tourism - Peggy's Cove being as popular as it is. Knowing and understanding that really, when you start work on a highway road like that, you really need to continue to work on it until you actually finish the project. I'm glad to say that project will be finished this year.

I know the Cabot Trail is another one I hear a lot about and I'm pleased to say that we will be doing work on the Cabot Trail and it will be an annual program that will take place until we can get that work done. People come from all over the world to go into the Highlands of Cape Breton, the Cabot Trail is famous everywhere. We need to do all we can to ensure that we bring those roads up to a condition, not only for local traffic, for residents, for business, but also for tourists who come here to see this beautiful province of ours so that they have good roads to travel on.

I want to continue to say that I am very proud that we have been able to, over the past number of years, increase the budget to where, I believe, we'll be able to see some great results with the amount of work that is being done in absolutely every riding, including my own. There are lots of roads that I'd love to see done in my own riding that should be done, that need to be done. I know the honourable member has them in her riding as well and she mentioned them to me. There will always be that need and we need to ensure that we get a good amount of capital monies in our budgets to address that. We'll never be able to do enough each year. But I really do believe with the amount of dollars we've been able to put into our capital budget the last few years, it goes a long way to bring the roads up to a standard that people expect, both residents and those who visit us alike.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you. I would just like to respectfully remind the minister of the many secondary roads in some of the communities in the riding of Queens, where

[Page 574]

economic viability and growth is just so important. As much as I love the area of Peggy's Cove, I grew up in that area and I still have family in that area and visit it frequently - absolutely, it's an important part of the province as is the Cabot Trail.

Some of the communities that I see as vitally important to the riding of Queens, and with the potential of growth, includes the communities of Petite Rivière which is on the Lighthouse Route, the community of Port Medway which is on the Lighthouse Route, and the community of Southwest Port Mouton which is on the Lighthouse Route. Also, I'd like to mention Voglers Cove which is part of the Lighthouse Route as well - it comes up from Petite Rivière and it connects back onto Highway No. 103, up through East Port Medway and down again through Port Medway. So that's a vital link to the Lighthouse Route for the riding of Queens and for the rest of the province, linking tourists from Peggy's Cove right straight through to Yarmouth if they wanted to travel that beautiful route.

I also want to remind the minister that the communities of Westfield in North Queens and the community of West Caledonia are vitally important as well to that area of my riding. Also, the community of Kempt. I just want to make mention that West Caledonia and Kempt are bordering Kejimkujik National Park and this year for the first time we are hosting a festival in Kejimkujik, it's called the Tent Dwellers Festival. It started last week and it was kicked off last week and it will go until October of this year.

Part of the attraction for tourists will be over the coming months, Kejimkujik being the highlight of that festival. So Kempt, the roads coming into Kejimkujik - and it is part of Highway No. 8, Kempt is on Highway No. 8, so I would encourage the minister to continue on with the projects on Highway No. 8. West Caledonia Road is vitally important too, so I just wanted to remind the minister of those community roads that I have been advocating for in the past two years.

I want to move on to some other questions. One suggestion that has come to me over the last couple of years, and certainly it is one that I have thought of myself as a need in this province along our 100-Series Highways, is the need for rest areas - a place where a tourist, a visitor or someone travelling from one end of the province to the other could pull over. There's nowhere to pull off on Highway No. 103 and there aren't many areas to pull off on Highway No. 104, Highway No. 107, Highway No. 101 - if a visitor isn't sure when they're going to get to the next restroom, for example - or a place just to pull off and maybe sit for 15 or 20 minutes before they continue on. Has the province or has the department ever considered maybe clearing off a section perhaps, every 45 minutes to an hour of travel where there would be a pull-off stop for visitors in the province?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for the very important questions. I would just like to start by saying - the honourable member would appreciate this as well - since we started deliberations in the estimates on Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, we've talked about repaving 100-Series Highways. We've talked about actually

[Page 575]

twinning highways, we've talked about paving gravel roads, we've talked about roadbeds. We've talked about paving of routes, trunks and secondary roads, so there is a wide variety of need in this province, there's no question about it.

I did want to say as well, as the member would know, there are two contracts out this year on Highway No. 8, I believe around the Liverpool-Caledonia area, there's eight kilometres and I think there is 10 on Highway No. 8 farther down into Annapolis, so those two sections are going ahead this year. Again, with such great demand, how do you say which piece of road is actually the most important road in your riding, and the member and I have talked about that. It is very difficult to do that. All you can do is develop a list of the ones that are most important to you, several roads that are the most important in your riding that you hear from people and you know, based on all the things the honourable member talked about, whether it's for local residents.

I said the other day in my own riding, I have some small museums on some secondary roads and those roads are very important to those individuals who work so hard volunteering their time to build these museums. Minudie is a good example in my area, I talked about it to the Minister of Health. With the strong francophone connection there, they've done a tremendous amount of work. They have a one-room schoolhouse, they have a church and a museum there. The road down through there was just deplorable and people from all over the world would come there because of the heritage.

When you look at that road - and I know the honourable member has the same in her riding - versus a route or a trunk that has a lot more traffic and maybe does lead from one community to another, some people wouldn't see the justification, for example, of paving one over the other. When the honourable member really knows there's a need and it certainly requires the attention of the department - again, it is very difficult to determine which road you do first, you have to start somewhere.

I will say that I know in my own situation and I'm sure a lot of members would feel the same way, if the department is able to identify a road that needs to be repaved and it's 14 kilometres long and you're going to do six or seven kilometres on it this year, I would hope that we'd see a following section done the following year to finish that as opposed to jumping all over the place.

The other thing I want to mention, as well, that was brought up during the estimates, was whether we could actually decrease the size of projects. Instead of making that 14 kilometres, two sevens, could you actually make it three fours and a two, but what that does is it drives the cost up. It's really important for the department to get as long a stretch as we possibly can with the budget we have and try to finish those projects, I would think, over a several year plan - whether it's two years, three years, four years, five years or, in the case of Peggy's Cove, it actually turns out to be eight years.

[Page 576]

With regard to the issue of rest areas, or places for the public to pull off, whether for scenic views or just to stop to take a rest, again, the department considers the issue around safety. I'll use an example of my own area, I know where a development association in one particular area - Route 209 - they, through their association, had some funds and actually developed a pull-off area, a very scenic area, which wasn't done when that road was actually put through there.

It all comes down to funding, the availability of having the funds to not only be able to pave that road, but possibly do as the honourable member is asking. I know something you asked in the House was around areas on highways for bicycle traffic and I know the honourable member asked about that. I know it's an important issue to her and she's raised it in this House. In the St. Anns area, for example, we have a project underway where we're actually allowing for a lane for bicycle traffic as a project to try it, on the paved portion for bicycle traffic.

But we can't do that all over the province for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes the roads aren't wide enough to allow for that, maybe it's not safe. It may be in an area where the road itself, whether it's quite hilly or twisty, it may not be conducive to that type of traffic. But we are going to, in the department - the honourable member asked me about it a few months ago - when we are doing repaving and we look at road construction, we'll look at opportunities to actually put those bicycle routes in wherever we possibly can. Again, it won't be every time we pave or build a road, but we're going to try to do it in some areas.

[5:45 p.m.]

I will say to the honourable member, we'll take your request under consideration about rest areas or opportunities for the public to pull off for scenic opportunities or for information - again, keeping in mind that we only have so much money in our budget and we're trying to do the best we can. Again, I mentioned the other day we have provincial responsibilities, there will be paving tenders in every one of the members' ridings where we have provincial responsibility. We're trying to make those dollars stretch as far as we can, we want to get good value for the dollar.

Back to what I said earlier about reviewing the process we presently have in place. It's all a matter of priorities and taking the available dollars and doing the best we can with them. I think the department does a good job of that. But, anyway, I will take the honourable member's suggestions under consideration and certainly discuss it with the department.

MS. CONRAD: I'm going to move the topic to public transportation in the province and the department's role in assisting with developing public transportation throughout the province. I know the department has taken up some of the challenge, however, I'm not sure if it's enough of a challenge, or enough of a role, the department is playing in building a public transportation system across the province.

[Page 577]

We all know the importance of having public transportation grow outside of the HRM area and, of course, be improved in the HRM area. Certainly there are a lot of under- serviced areas throughout the province. There is a lack of public transportation in a lot of rural areas across the province. We've talked a lot about public transportation and the need for it in this House through Question Period, through members bringing it up to various ministers and vice-versa.

We all know the importance of seeing public transportation being developed because it is essential to reducing our emissions, reducing greenhouse gases, to try to get a handle on climate change that is happening rapidly. We are seeing the results of that climate change picking up pace and the difference we're seeing in our environment. Public transportation across the province is going to be key to addressing our role in addressing that.

Of course, the other side of public transportation is basic access, which is an important role for us to play to ensure all residents have basic access to transportation. Living in rural Nova Scotia, as you know, many people are geographically isolated, especially seniors and those more vulnerable residents who perhaps don't have the means to have a private vehicle, for example. So transportation is key to one of their needs, to making their life complete. It's as important as good shelter and the basic needs that most of us take for granted. Unfortunately, what we're seeing across the province is a lack of access to transportation for many of our residents.

I understand there has been $3 million in this budget invested into strategic planning around public transportation for the province. I'm not clear whether that $3 million comes directly out of the Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal budget, if it comes from the Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations budget or if it's part of the Building Canada Fund. Wherever that money has come from, what I'm seeing is that it's really not a comprehensive amount of money to see public transportation grow in this province. I'm wondering, first, where the money has come from, out of what part of the budget and, secondly, how does the minister see that money being allocated to municipalities throughout the province? What are the criteria for municipalities to apply for that particular funding? Is there a cap - will there be a cap of say $50,000 - that municipalities can apply for to put into a particular strategy?

The other concern I have with not enough money being spread around and what the criteria look like, the fact that there seem to be a lot of patchwork initiatives across the province - Conserve Nova Scotia has the Green Mobility Strategy, there is the Building Canada Fund, and whether this $3 million comes out of that or not, I don't know. There are also many other initiatives that groups and organizations have taken on themselves to see public transit or some access to transportation.

What worries me is the fact that there are so many different programs for people to tap into. Several departments have their fingers in the public transportation pie and I'm

[Page 578]

wondering if it would be better matched if these programs were streamlined - I would suggest streamlined under the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal. I mean, obviously the Department of Environment has to have a role in transportation in terms of the environmental concerns around public transportation. There are just a lot of initiatives that I think would be more economically feasible if they were streamlined under one particular department as opposed to groups and organizations wondering where they're going to go. So that's a series of questions.

MR. SCOTT: I'd like to thank the member opposite for the questions. First of all, I can understand fully what the honourable member is saying about transit, because I come from a rural area. I listen to her concerns and I could close my eyes and I could be talking about my own constituency. I do want to take a moment to put a little plug in there because in my area, there is no available public transit anywhere in Cumberland County. There's a group called the Healthy Parrsboro & Area Committee, and one of the ladies who serves on that, Dora Fuller, I know the honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley knows her very well. In fact, she asks me quite often about her as she does about the honourable member as well. She's a senior, but I'll tell you, she has more energy than I do - might not mean a lot - but she's a tremendous worker.

Just to show you what volunteers can do when it comes to small communities, she bought, on her own, she was of that strong a belief that we should have a public transit - particularly accessible transport - in our area, that she went out of her own pocket about three years ago and bought a bus on her own, out of her own dollars. She was prepared to donate it, she had started and worked for the committee, she and another gentleman named Paul Hill who is from Port Greville.

They're on the Healthy Parrsboro & Area Committee and they've been working very hard over the last three years with regard to public transit, particularly accessible transportation for the people of Cumberland South and all of Cumberland County, but mainly from the Advocate, Parrsboro Shore area down along through Springhill and Oxford and up to Amherst. Their dream was that they would provide this transportation, that there would be a bus that would make that route each day through on up to Amherst to where the regional hospital is, for appointments and all kinds of things, and then it would make the run back home.

Again, Dora has been heading this initiative up and worked very hard in the last three years and I can tell you they're very close to making it become a reality. They've raised a lot of money on their own. They're doing a lot of great work and now that group has the opportunity, hopefully, if the budget passes tomorrow, this group will have the opportunity through the $3 million that we have in our budget this year - this is actually through the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations - to apply for funding to help make that a reality. So that money is in the budget, it's in the Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations budget.

[Page 579]

The honourable member asked about federal money. Yes, through the Building Canada Fund there is an opportunity - I think it's $37 million over seven years - there's $37 million available, I believe, over seven years from the federal government under the Building Canada Fund, and public transit does qualify as one of the cost-sharing opportunities. I will say that we have to negotiate those agreements directly with the federal government and put projects forward which they would have to accept - the same as all the other projects, the highway projects and other infrastructure projects that we'll put forward in this province over the next seven years to the federal government.

I'm not sure if I answered all of the member's questions or not, but basically the province will be involved in that through Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. The criteria - I believe that, you know, obviously they're going to need a good business plan. I'm sure they've got to raise a certain portion of the project monies themselves. They will qualify eventually when we get signed agreements and get projects approved federally. I'm sure they would qualify for that, as well, again under the Building Canada Fund.

I know the honourable member has brought that up in the House, the unavailability of transit in rural Nova Scotia, and it has become a huge issue. You know, we have seniors who for various reasons, whether financial, maybe it's health reasons, maybe it's a disability that someone has, have the need of some sort of transportation. I've had people call my constituency office, they can't get to a doctor's appointment because they have no one to take them. We try to help them but having a regularly scheduled, accessible bus in a rural community, I know - I'm sure in the honourable member's and mine as well - would help so many people and I think it would go a long way to ensuring that people receive the services in rural Nova Scotia that they do.

The answer I guess is, yes, there will be money available and there is money available in this budget. I look forward to working with communities, as I'm sure the honourable member does in her riding, to help make that a reality.

MS. CONRAD: I would just like to point out to the minister that we have one of the finest public transportation system across this province and it's called the school bus. Every day, five days a week, two, sometimes three times a day, our school buses run across this province and it is one of the finest public transportation systems. If someone had the foresight to look at that system and integrate it with a public transportation system that serves more than students across this province, perhaps we could build a strategic public transportation system that actually works. Therefore, we won't have to rely on the goodwill, the good nature, of volunteers who are working so hard to make access to transportation to seniors and families who are vulnerable in our community, who don't have access to transportation.

I believe there's a municipality - and the municipality escapes me - that had brought to council an initiative using the school bus system as a model for integrating the school bus

[Page 580]

with public transportation needs in their community. It may be Pictou for some reason I'm thinking, I'm not sure, but I think that municipality, whichever one it is, certainly has a vision for an accessible public transportation system across this province. So I would respectfully suggest that to the minister and his department, and also to work closely with the Department of Education to look at the system that exists here across the province and how we can better utilize it. Can we, is it practical, does it make sense, is it appropriate?

Obviously, a lot of our school buses wouldn't fit the bill in terms of perhaps the size of the buses and there would have to be some upgrades but the system is in place. So I think if we can expand on at least that model, we could move forward with a viable system across this province.

I want to talk about active transportation. The Ecology Action Centre and other groups across the province, TRAX, are moving forward with active transportation initiatives, which includes encouraging the department to move forward with the construction of bike lanes, especially around our lighthouse routes. I am hearing that some bike lanes are already being moved forward in some communities, and that's a good thing. I think to work closely with those groups who are encouraging more active lifestyles through active transportation, is a good thing. I am encouraging the minister and the department, again, to move quickly on those types of initiatives, because at the end of the day I think it becomes fiscally responsible. We can get more people out of their vehicles, especially in smaller communities, where they can scoot from community to community using a bicycle. I think we need to look at the fiscal opportunities that can be had by investing in active transportation.

[6:00 p.m.]

I also want to draw the minister's attention to a piece of legislation that I put to the House the other day around the Zen Car, the electric car. I think that particular legislation, when it comes up before the House, there will be good, positive discussions around that. There are a lot of communities that certainly could see residents moving forward to purchasing those types of electric vehicles. A lot of communities, in my riding for example, you can't be driving 80 and 90 kilometres in through a lot of our communities and I have already started hearing from residents who are asking, can we get hold of one of those electric cars, I could be scooting around my community in one of those neat, energy-efficient vehicles. So I look forward to discussing that piece of legislation in the House when it does come up and it's part of a good transportation strategy.

I would like to ask the minister about my suggestion around school buses and using that model.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite for the questions and the suggestions. First of all, I do want to say I neglected to mention, as well, and I'm sure members would agree, that I think Kings County also has a tremendous bus system in place

[Page 581]

that I know we've heard a lot about. Other communities are looking at their experience and trying to mirror what they have been able to do successfully. I guess there's no need to try to find new ways to do things when someone else has been successful at it and I don't think you should ever argue with success. Kings County is another area that we should look to for their experience and some suggestions.

I was sitting here tonight and I kind of smiled when you said about school buses, I'm sitting here tonight - and my colleagues would probably agree - you remember the previous Minister of Transportation, the honourable Ron Russell who is now retired. He's probably sitting home tonight, you know, watching us here and taking this all in and wishing he was here to answer your questions. I do want to say that before Minister Russell left . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: He's too smart for that.

MR. SCOTT: Yes. Before Minister Russell left, actually one of Minister Russell's suggestions was that we talk about accessible buses and busing throughout the province, that we look at the option of using school buses. (Interruption) Two great minds.

Anyway, we'll have discussions with the Department of Education to see if there is any opportunity there that we may even look at some sort of a pilot maybe, I don't know, but we will look at it.

I will say that when you just quickly look at the issue, first of all, there's the public system in Nova Scotia and there's also the private system, whether it's contracted out, in my own area, I think Laidlaw and Stock is another group. So, you know, they're one side of it. There's a public system that's in place. There could be all kinds of issues around school buses. I know they're used for maybe two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening and they sit throughout the day but, however, there are lots of times that children need to be bused through the day, whether school is cancelled, or if they're going on school trips. Anyway, I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at it, we should, but we have to keep in mind as well that they are, primarily, we would have to understand, they are for busing children back and forth to school and they have to be available.

We couldn't have the school children waiting for these buses because they're tied up elsewhere, no more than we would want to leave people stranded because they had to leave and go pick up children. So there are probably lots of reasons why we need to take a real good look at it but also being cautious about it, to ensure that we would not hinder what buses in this province are intended to do, and that is to carry our school children safely. I should say that we should commend all of our bus drivers across this province because they do a tremendous job. We trust them with our most precious gifts, our children. So I think they do a tremendous job and we need to ensure that they're able to continue to do that. I know many in my own area, I hear that often, we do not get a chance to tell them that enough.

[Page 582]

Just on the issue of the bike lanes, I just wanted to mention as well, for example, in the St. Anns area we're actually widening the pavement an extra metre which will mean that then you'll have that additional space on each side of the highway for bicycles to travel. So that's happening right now. On the Peggy's Cove loop we're looking at the possibility of a one-metre wide of double-chip seal, which would allow again for a bicycle route on that loop. I think that's probably an area, and probably several others in the province, that will be well received. I know we've heard that in the House and we've heard organizations talk about how it's becoming more popular, you know, in this kind of sport.

I'm sure the honourable member is not saying here tonight, suggesting Nova Scotians take the bike, are you? (Interruption) No, no, I didn't think so. Anyway I did want to say, just on this Zen car, we've had a lot of correspondence in the department from citizens who have read about it, from groups, and not only just from Nova Scotia either. People have contacted the department and said, hey, you know what, here's an electric car that's available. Obviously, you know, what a great opportunity to save on energy. I do want to say that the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Environment have done a tremendous job in regard to doing all we can to ensure we protect our environment.

Certainly we want to explore any initiative or opportunity in this province, and do what we can to lessen the amount of damage we're doing to the environment. So I think it's a great suggestion and I think people can really pick up on it and, in fact, I think the generation coming behind us are a lot more in tune to the environment. I think they're more aware and they're encouraging us, as decision makers, to ensure that we make decisions - whether it's legislation, whether it's laws in this province, whatever it is - that we ensure we take into consideration what impact that has on the environment and what we can do to protect it.

But back to the Zen car, the Zen car, as you know, when we consider what vehicles we would allow on the highways in Nova Scotia, we not only have to consider what the benefits are, we have to consider what it means in regard to safety, what it means in regard to other vehicles that travel on the highways today - whether it be bicycles, motorcycles, trucks, cars. We have to consider the pedestrian traffic and obviously speeds and the type of weather and the types of road conditions we have throughout the province.

My understanding is the Zen car - and, in fact, the department is presently reviewing the whole issue around the Zen car and we've done quite a bit of work already. I think I'm right in saying that there's only one jurisdiction presently in Canada - I believe I'm right - that allows the Zen car to be used and that's in a national park in British Columbia. Other jurisdictions apparently are looking at it but I don't think it's actually legal to drive on provincial highways in the country other than that, and that was as of three or four weeks ago, unless something has changed since then.

[Page 583]

Transport Canada has certain safety standards that vehicles have to meet to be able to travel on our highways. There are 41 of those standards and the Zen car actually only meets six of them. So there's a real issue around the safety of drivers in the vehicles, you know, when it comes to collisions. The speed of these vehicles, which I understand is quite slow, I think 40 kilometres is the top speed of these vehicles. So you can just imagine if we allowed those vehicles on our highways and you had those types of vehicles - they are small (Interruption) Well, we'll have to build more roads, so there you go, we want to build more roads. See, we've already been through this - certain roads with no other cars on them. But anyway, there are safety standards that have to be met in this country and we in this province certainly want to ensure that anything we authorize on our highways meets those standards.

I'll give you a good example. There's a bill before the House - I'm not supposed to speak about it - but there's a certain type of motorcycle that presently is not allowed to be licensed in Nova Scotia. Many other provinces allow it, it meets all the standards, the Transport Canada safety standards, it meets all those. (Interruptions) The speed of those? Oh, they have a top speed of well over 100 kilometres an hour. They're a regular motorcycle, there's nothing that (Interruption) Yes, you're right, it has to do with the steering, the number of wheels on the steering mechanism. They meet the Transport Canada safety standards that are required across the country and other provinces allow it.

So that's a good example of how, when something is suggested here in this province - in this case it was dealers. Cobequid Mountain Sports, by the way, in Cumberland County is the one that brought it to my attention. So anyway, that's a good example of when a vehicle that's authorized by Transport Canada meets all of those standards and other jurisdictions are using it. Now it's present before this House where it can quickly move through this House with the agreement of all members and all sides of the House to make it legal.

When it comes to the Zen car, that's a little bit different. As much as we would like to allow that to happen right away, there are all kinds of reasons that I just mentioned to you that we have to ensure we consider. I think the Road Safety Committee - we're doing a review, anyway, internally in the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal in regard to what's happened elsewhere of those standards that the Zen car would have to meet. What opportunities there may be in Nova Scotia, if there are any - maybe it's a pilot, maybe it's not.

The honourable member raised an issue that maybe there are certain roads - and maybe there are - in certain areas of the province, maybe it's within a protected area of a park or something where no other traffic is allowed. There may be situations where a vehicle like that could be used. But just to authorize, for example, the Zen car for environmental reasons and reasons around cost savings, to allow it on our highways, we have to be very cognizant of the fact that it has an impact on other traffic that presently takes part on our highways, and again all those things that I talked about earlier.

[Page 584]

So anyway, the honourable member has come up with some good ideas and suggestions that we'll consider, particularly the issue around the school bus. We will have a discussion with the Department of Education about that issue and see if there are any opportunities in this province to partner with the Department of Education or even to look at the issue and maybe do some sort of review, to see if there's an opportunity where maybe some locales may be able to take advantage of school buses that are available. Anyway, I thank the honourable member for that and again, we'll take those comments under consideration.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The honourable member's time has expired.

The honourable member for Preston.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've got a few questions about particular roads in my area that I want to ask, of course. The first one is a relatively easy one and there's a bridge in Lake Echo on the old Highway No. 7 that needs repairs. I think the department has recognized that. I don't know when it's scheduled to be repaired, but when it is repaired and possibly before that, it really needs a walkway on the outside of the handrail. There's a huge trailer park just up from the bridge and on the other side of the bridge is a convenience store, a beach, a canoe club and a community recreation centre, a big one. There are a lot of kids in that trailer court, Lake Echo, and they're travelling on the road and the bridge. There's a very narrow, not really a walkway, just sort of a curb on the bridge, and it's quite a sharp corner around that spot too.

I was just wondering when the minister - we've sent letters requesting this in the past - when could we expect this work to possibly be done?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the honourable member for the question and welcome him to the debate tonight around the transportation estimates and budget for this year.

I'm not quite clear exactly where the bridge is that the honourable member is talking about. We'll make some notes in regard to that bridge. I will say that we have a pretty aggressive program in this province in regard to inspections of the bridges and I'm assuming from what the member said that this is a cement/steel-type bridge - single or double lane? Double lane, it's a double lane.

There's an annual inspection that takes place of all bridges in Nova Scotia, and then there's a more in-depth examination and assessment of bridges that occurs every three or four years. We'll find out when that bridge was last assessed and what type of assessment was done on it, and let the honourable member know what the plans are for that bridge.

[Page 585]

The honourable member mentioned about a sidewalk and again it depends on if there's any opportunity with the existing bridge, maybe the type of growth there's been in the area, whether there's a lot of pedestrian traffic now, where there wasn't when that bridge was first built. As the member would know, some of the bridges in this province have quite a number of years behind them and this may be one of those bridges, I'm not sure. We'll do an investigation of the issue that the honourable member is talking about tonight and try to determine where that bridge is in our plan, and also get a copy of the last report that was done on that bridge. Then we'll look ahead to the future as to whether there's a plan to replace this bridge, does it need to be replaced, is it going to be upgraded, repaired or whatever? I don't know at this point, but we'll certainly ascertain that and report back to the member.

MR. COLWELL: The bridge, I believe, was built probably in the 1950s, when Highway No. 7 was originally put through and paved. The real issue is the bridge may not need to be replaced. You can't tell by looking at it, you'd have to have the engineers look at it, of course. But even if the bridge isn't going to be replaced, if you could put a walkway on the outside of the bridge so the children can go through there.

[6:15 p.m.]

When that bridge was built, there were very few people living in Lake Echo, almost no people living in Lake Echo. The huge trailer court has 300 or 400 trailers in it, and most of the homeowners in that particular area have children. So they have to get out for recreation, they have to go on that section of the road and the bridge is narrow, it's just barely the two lanes needed for cars to pass each other. So if you had three or four kids, hopefully on the proper side of the road - but not necessarily always, as you know how kids are when they're playing and going places - it could be a fatal place for somebody sometime.

So if I could get a commitment from you to look at that and see if there can't be something done. It's not a very wide bridge, I'm guessing the width of it, probably about 30 feet. It's not a huge bridge that you have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars putting a walkway on. The length of it, it's not very long, so indeed, because it's not very long - and causes some big flooding upstream from there when big rains come, but that's another issue altogether. It's not very long, so the cost of putting the walkway on that, even a wooden walkway on the outside of it, would probably suffice what needs to be done, with the proper handrails on it. So maybe you could just give a confirmation that you will look at that walkway.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the member opposite. We will undertake to review that bridge and see what can be done. Again, I'm just reminded by staff that it depends on the type of girders it has and its weight-bearing type of structure, whether it's possible or not, and what type of sidewalk would be required, steel or wood or whatever. But we'll commit to review that and do an assessment of that and report it back to the honourable member.

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MR. COLWELL: My asks are going to get a little bit bigger as we go along here, that's the easiest one. The next one is Brooks Drive in East Preston. Now I really appreciate the work the department has done in the Preston ridings. Brooks Drive is a street, which we have community transit on, although it's not very good transit, it's there occasionally. The transit bus goes through there, that's a rated one so the community pays for it, in addition to the regular transit rate. The bus goes through there, the school bus, there's quite a lot of traffic and it's probably about two kilometres long and it is in desperate condition. Are there any plans to pave that in the next year or so, or less?

MR. SCOTT: I can tell the honourable member that's not a name of a road that's familiar to me, so I would say from that, it's not on our list at present to be repaved. I'd want to get back to the department and look at our roads for the area before I say that but, again, it's not a road I remember being on our list, so I would have to say at this point, it's not one that's presently under consideration this year to be repaved.

MR. COLWELL: Hopefully, you could put it on the list for this year. It is one that needs to be done, there's a community centre at the end of the road and there's a lot of traffic through this one particular area. So I would ask you to consider that and see if we can't get that repaired. It is in really bad shape. I'm sure the snowplow drivers, when they go through there in the winter, aren't very happy individuals when they hit that section of road. It's full of potholes, it has humps in the middle and it's just in bad shape.

The next thing I have on the list here is a bigger problem. This is one that really has to be addressed and the department has done some work on this in the past, they've acquired some land already, they've prepared interchange drawings and the whole works. The problem with this is - it's the Highway No. 107 bypass, which would potentially hook on at Exit 17, where you come out of East Preston and then go in behind all the homes and connect somewhere near Conrad's gravel pit on the Montague Road.

That would take off so much traffic off the old Highway No. 7. Now, in the morning, the wait at the lights is probably up to a half-hour. In some cases, it's backed up maybe three or four kilometres. Not only the traffic tie-up - the same thing is repeated in the evenings going the other direction - some of the traffic tie-up. But Ross Road, which is in that area - on Highway No.7 where Ross Road intersects, just past where Ross Road intersects on that section of Highway No. 7, just up from there - has had many fatal accidents in the last four or five years.

It's because the traffic is so intense and it's impossible to get out of there. The municipality has one set of lights that's sort of half a set of lights and not the other half. That's their problem, not ours. I've been chasing them to resolve that, but they have to realign a road to do it and they seem to be reluctant to do that. But if we could get the Highway No. 107 bypass put in place - I have talked to your staff about it and met with them

[Page 587]

and they showed me the plan they have for it. All we need is a priority from the minister and we can get it done - and the money, of course.

It's really in your hands, Mr. Minister. If you have lots of money, you guys spent a lot of money before the budget came down, so maybe you could free up some more money to do this. This would help not only my riding, but the next riding on the Eastern Shore, because a lot of people come through there every day and the traffic is building more and more and more. People are sitting there idling their vehicles, it's becoming an environmental issue as well as a safety issue. The traffic is just incredible. I was just wondering what the plan is for the Highway No. 107 bypass.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you to the member opposite for the question and an obvious concern around Highway No. 107. The honourable member would know that the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal is very concerned about this actual highway you talked about and very interested in seeing that move ahead.

The honourable member would know, as well, from the meetings with staff that we are in the process now of acquiring properties, purchasing properties and also doing further design as to what that highway will actually look like. I'm told the cost would be around $26 million, estimated today. The honourable member would have heard some of the discussion we've had over the last couple of days here with regard to initiatives that are presently underway - whether they are Highway Nos. 104, 101, 103, all of the secondary highways we're getting requests to do.

I know this highway is very important to the honourable member, I know he's brought it forward before. One thing we are pursuing and will pursue with the federal government, presently Highway No. 107 would not qualify for cost sharing with the federal government. That means the province would have to pay for the entire project ourselves. But while we're acquiring the property and while we're doing the design, again, keeping in mind the department recognizes this is a very important piece of work that we would like to see done, we will continue to encourage the federal government and try to work with the federal government to allow it to be part of our cost-sharing program with them. That would obviously help us to speed up the process with regard to Highway No. 107, because we do recognize it as being very important, not only to the honourable member and the residents there, but important to the province and important to HRM to get this done.

There is work behind the scenes being done, I know the honourable member and the public might not see the work being done, but there is work being done within the department. I think it is something we need to continue to work on and try to encourage the federal government to allow that to be part of the cost-sharing program, which would help tremendously in regard to seeing that project become a reality.

[Page 588]

MR. COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, how much more land do you have to purchase to have all the land you need to move forward with the project?

MR. SCOTT: As the honourable member would know, the department has been acquiring land right along and my understanding is we have most of the land acquired now. So we hope to be able to acquire the rest of the land in the near future, but most of the land has been already acquired.

MR. COLWELL: Once the land is acquired are you doing the design work right now? I know when I talked to staff they said they don't have a priority on doing the design work. Has that been completed or how near complete is that or when will that be completed?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member. The department had originally begun the design process around the four-lane highway and since then it has been changed, if you will, to a two lane. The design will be around two lanes with the possibility or opportunity to expand that to four lanes in the future, not only as the need be but also, of course, when funding becomes available. The member asked, is the design complete now and I have to say no, it's not, it's something the department will work on. Again, for us to be able to move this project forward, it's very important that we are able to convince the federal government to allow this to become part of the cost-sharing program so that we can get some additional funds, federally, to help us complete that project.

MR. COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, a real simple question, what do you have to do to get it on the federal list for the cost sharing?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member. Presently, that particular piece of highway would not meet the federal criteria to become part of the cost sharing. I believe it was Highway No. 103 that we were able to convince the federal government that it had become a feeder under the 100-Series designation. We will continue to try to convince the federal government to allow that to become - whether it's considered a bypass or a feeder, we'll continue to try to encourage the federal government to allow that highway to become part of that cost-sharing program which means that they have to be flexible, I guess, with their criteria to allow that to happen.

MR. COLWELL: Well, this is a rapidly growing area and the problem is going to get worse and worse. I'm glad to see that it's growing, while the municipal plan that the municipality has to basically stop all development, which may stop the growth in the area once all the roadside land is taken up. In any case, this is going to grow, the problem is going to get a lot worse. We don't have proper public transit in the area and we will not have public transit in the area for years to come, unless something drastic happens in the meantime.

This road is critical for safety and for traffic flow, so I encourage the minister to do everything we can to get this on the list with the federal government and if we can't get it on

[Page 589]

the list with the federal government, see if maybe we could build part of it over two or three years to get it finished so that we can have this finished for the safety and the ease of handling traffic that needs to be done.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the honourable member's comments and I will commit to ensuring that we continue to use as much influence as we can federally to include Highway No. 107. I will say that a good example is the Burnside Expressway, the federal government allowed that to be considered because it begins and ends on a 100-Series Highway, part of the National Highway System, where with Highway No. 107 it doesn't. We're hoping to convince them for it to be considered as a municipal bypass, which would then fit their criteria to allow Highway No. 107 to fall under that category. We're hopeful we can convince them and that they will accept it then under the cost-sharing program.

MR. COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, what is the process? Does the minister have to write a letter to the federal minister or is it negotiations that happen between staff, or how does that work? That's something I have never worked on.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, the first part of the process obviously would be interdepartmental, at the staff level, where our staff would ask them what the criteria are and we would ask them, for example, if they would consider Highway No. 107. It would be a back-and-forth discussion between that level of staff. There certainly is an opportunity, if that doesn't work, when the provincial and federal ministers meet on a regular basis, at least annually, that I could bring that to the attention of the minister, to have his staff at least take another look at it if they don't agree with us. There would be other issues, as a province, we've done it in the past and we will continue to do that, where at the ministerial level we try to encourage them to revisit a decision they've made or at least re-look at an issue here in Nova Scotia that may be different somewhere else.

[6:30 p.m.]

I'll give you an example. Under the criteria there is money available to municipalities for federal cost sharing of roads. In Ontario, 90 per cent of the roads are owned by the municipalities and 10 per cent are owned by the province. Here in Nova Scotia, it's the opposite because here we own and maintain 90 per cent of the paved roads, but we're not able to access any kind of cost-sharing program with the federal government because they don't consider that as part of the agreement with the provinces - they will the municipalities but not the provinces. We own and maintain most of the roads in this province; in fact, about 90 per cent.

Going beyond that, we were able to convince the federal government to include bridges in the cost-sharing program, so now at least as we move forward with some of these bridges, we're able to put those forward for consideration for agreement with the federal government in regard to cost sharing of those structures. So I guess what I'm trying to say

[Page 590]

to the honourable member tonight is that just because it doesn't meet the criteria, it doesn't mean that we're not going to be able to convince the federal government, given all the issues the honourable member mentioned here tonight about the growth and the number of vehicles on that highway - and it continues to grow - and the fact it is a bypass in our minds.

We will continue to try to encourage the federal government to accept it under the cost-sharing program. I will tell the honourable member that staff to staff, they'll continue to talk about these issues as they do other issues. If we're not successful there, then I would be prepared to take it directly to the federal minister, Minister Cannon and ask him, explain and show him the information we have around this highway. Tell him about all the issues the honourable member has talked about to us here tonight, and try to convince him to make that part of the cost-sharing program which, in my mind, will advance that program a lot more quickly.

MR. COLWELL: I'm pleased to hear that and I know that people, even outside of my riding, who travel this road will be very pleased to hear that and the people who have to contend with the traffic going by their properties and trying to get into traffic when there's no need of it. It could definitely help a lot of people as there have been a tremendous number of accidents in that area and a lot of deaths. Per kilometre, our death rate is probably a lot higher than Highway No. 101, over the same period of time. If you look at the number of kilometres you have on Highway No. 101 and the number of kilometres we have where the problem starts, where the bypass would be, to where it ends, somewhere in Dartmouth. It's a very short distance but there are a lot of deaths in that area, and they continue. Sometimes it is unexplainable why these accidents have happened, but there's always a reason. So for the kilometres there I would say our death rate is much higher. I will measure it and I'll find out how many deaths there were and I'll let you know.

Everyone talks about Highway No. 101, which is a serious issue and it has to be resolved, I'm not saying it doesn't, but for the number of deaths and the number of accidents with serious injury, I'm sure we're much higher per kilometre than Highway No. 101. So it's an issue that could be fixed a whole lot cheaper and look after the safety of many residents. You have to see the traffic to believe what it's like. It's almost like you're in downtown Toronto at rush hour and it's getting like that in the afternoons. It used to start about 4:00 p.m. and go to about 6:00 p.m., but now it starts probably at 1:00 p.m. and goes until 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. when cars are coming back because a lot of cars go on this road, as well, to go into Cole Harbour, so it would also alleviate problems in Cole Harbour. The whole structure is really a bottleneck on this old section of Main Street in Dartmouth which just feeds into it.

The other issue - since you can't fix that for me right away, but you're going to work on it, I'm very pleased to hear - a major issue for many people, we need an entry lane at Exit 17, where East Preston comes out onto Highway No. 107. I've written the department about that on more than one occasion and they have come back and I had a verbal commitment one

[Page 591]

time from your predecessor that they would probably be able to do that - yes, the gentleman sitting across there - but it never did happen when they repaved the road last year. For some reason it couldn't be done at that point, but the thing is it's the only exit on that road, on Highway No. 107, that doesn't have a proper entry lane. The entry lane really has to go from where Highway No. 107 enters, down the hill for whatever the proper engineering distance it is to make a merge lane, where it's actually four lanes right there at that spot.

There have been some accidents there as well, not as many as further in, but there have been some accidents. The cars are coming around the corner, they're supposed to be at 90 kilometres an hour, but I can tell you after trying to pull out there in the morning on the few occasions I've been there, the cars are on top of you before you can get up to speed and get out of their way and they're coming at you from two lanes. So it's really a small job to build the road over and put a proper entry lane in there and at least get that done, to allow a safe entry of the vehicles coming out of East Preston. A lot of people go through Highway No. 107 from Lake Echo, Porter's Lake, East Preston and that whole area in the mornings because it's a nicer drive than going on Highway No. 107 - although Highway No. 107 is nice. Is there something we can do with that to get that fixed?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member opposite. The honourable member said there was a commitment from the previous minister to do that and I just had discussions with the chief engineer here who tells me that when that repaving project actually moved ahead, the design of that issue the honourable member is asking about wasn't ready. The department didn't want to hold up the whole project because that design wasn't ready, so they went ahead and paving was completed, as you had mentioned. I don't know if there are any issues, I assume there weren't, we don't know from sitting here, but we'll review it. I don't know if there were any issues around land acquisition, if we already own the land and it was ready to go other than the design, but we'll review that and let the honourable member know what the results of that are. I would think if the main holdup was the design then probably the issues around land were already taken care of, but we'll review that and report the results of that review back to the honourable member.

Again, I just wanted to say that apparently it was ready to go with the paving project, but the design wasn't ready and rather than stop the whole project - it probably would have put it off by another year - the decision was made to go ahead and do the repaving anyway, even though the design of that project you're talking about wasn't ready to go.

MR. COLWELL: I'm going to ask the inevitable question - it's another year, so is there any chance of getting it done this year?

MR. SCOTT: To be honest, honourable member, I can't say. Again, it's all about priorities and the amount of money we have - it boils down to funding. I certainly wouldn't want to make that commitment here tonight. I can tell you that I haven't seen it on a list anywhere so far this year to be done. So to be honest with you, I'd have to say it's not likely.

[Page 592]

But I want to first of all have a look to see if the design was finished, what kind of dollars we're talking about, is everything else in place, is there available money to do it, and then I'd give you a definite answer. But I can tell you tonight, from what I know and what I've seen in the department so far, it's not on the list to be done this year, I don't believe. But, again, we will review that and then I'll get an answer for the honourable member, yes or no, whether it can happen this year or not.

MR. COLWELL: It's just that it seems like a couple of things in my riding have been missed from the year before like Upper and Lower Partridge River Drive. I thank the minister for putting that back on the list and putting that tender out to do that, because that was important to have that in the area. So it's one of those things we are committed to do and I appreciate the commitment and appreciate the paving that was done.

Don't get me wrong, it is a safety issue and it's an issue that wouldn't cost the department, I don't think, a lot of money to do this and it would resolve a serious problem down the road. This is a dangerous intersection and with the traffic coming around there, supposedly at 90 kilometres an hour - but I'm sure they come around faster than 90 kilometres an hour in the mornings when people are going to work. As I say, it's a double lane and it's full, so it doesn't give people a chance to pull out. I have seen people pull out there in the morning and just sort of loiter along as the cars are just barrelling down on them and it's a funny thing that someone hasn't been rear-ended and a really serious accident happen because of that. So anything you can do to expedite that and get that small little project done would be greatly appreciated and would help some of the safety issues in the area.

MR. SCOTT: Thank you to the member opposite for that. You know, I guess something I have become well aware of in the last six months is the tremendous growth we see in HRM, which is obviously creating tremendous challenges for the municipality and for the province as well - whether it's the Highway No. 102 corridor, whether it is the Burnside Expressway, whether, I think ,it's Highway No. 103 to Highway No. 101, the proposed Highway No. 113, or whether it's Highway No. 107. As we continue to see the type of growth we do in HRM, it's going to continue to create a lot more pressure in regard to the transportation system and the ability to move traffic and traffic flow in a safe and effective manner.

So I appreciate very much what the honourable member is saying here tonight. I know he did mention that was a small project. I have no idea of the cost of that project, I couldn't begin to guess, but I did commit and I will commit that we will review that. I will let the honourable member know where that review is, where it is in the process and whether it is possible or not. Again, I haven't seen it, when we were trying to look at our dollars this year. I haven't seen it on the list but that doesn't mean - and, again, depending on what the price tag is, I will certainly get back to the honourable member in regard to the review and whether it's possible or not this year or next year, whatever. I will try to let you know as soon as I can.

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MR. COLWELL: Thank you very much and I'm going to turn the remainder of my time over to the honourable member for Clare.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Clare.

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I want to continue where I left off last time I was up. We were looking at RIM funding. The minister indicated that this year the department's budget is around $21 million. The field offices around the province will be receiving approximately the same level of funding as they received last year.

My next question to the minister is, how does the department decide on the amount it provides to each field office? Does the department have a formula they use? Is it based on population? Is it based on the number of kilometres of roads in an area? I would ask the minister to comment on that, please.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, thank you to the member opposite for the question. I guess, basically, the easiest way to say it is that the amount of money is allocated, obviously, for gravel roads, the amount of monies allocated for spreader patching, or whatever, is determined by the number of kilometres of those types of roads in a district or in an area of jurisdiction for area managers. So mainly it's determined by the number of kilometres of roads. Certainly we can give you a breakdown of the allocation of dollars by district or by region, if that will help, but again it's mainly done by the number of kilometres of roads.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I certainly would welcome the commitment made by the minister when he does get a chance to provide us with that information, it certainly would be welcome.

I want to move on to - I'm going to be going all over the parking lot here, I guess, I have all kinds of different issues I would like to raise. My next one is the rumble strips. Last year the department called a tender for the installation of rumble strips on the shoulders of Highway No. 104. My question is, is the department considering calling more tenders to install rumble strips along the shoulders of our roads? If so, where and if not, why not?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you to the member opposite for that question. I can say from my own experience that I think those rumble strips - I've seen them in other provinces, and now we're doing a pilot in that particular area of the northern region - are another tool in ensuring that our highways are as safe as possible. One thing I'm reminded of is there are some areas of the province that may not be conducive to those with regard to the width of the shoulders, for example. If the shoulders aren't wide enough, if the pavement's not wide enough, then obviously we can't put them in those areas.

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[6:45 p.m.]

The other thing that was mentioned to me by someone in the department along the way was that depending on the weather, if it was in the wrong area and they're low, they could collect a lot of water and obviously that freezes and could become a safety issue in itself. But I will say that as we construct new roads in this province, the new roadways are being built wide enough to be able to take advantage of these rumble strips. I'm hoping the honourable member will see more of these over the next number of years across the province.

MR. GAUDET: I guess I'll go back looking for some details. Is the department considering calling more tenders this year to install more rumble strips and if so, where and if not, why not?

MR. SCOTT: Thank you to the member opposite for the question. I keep going back to the issue of funding, no matter what we talk about here. However, it is reality for us. I can tell the honourable member that our intention would be to continue along Highway No. 104 toward Truro - that's where we hope to move toward next. Whether there will be a tender this year or not depends on a lot of things, but mainly it comes down to the availability of funding.

As I talked about the last two days, some of the challenges we're facing now, particularly this year, are increased costs for petroleum, increased trucking costs and increased costs for asphalt. Throughout the summer months, we're going to be determining where a budget allows us to continue to do our work in various areas - whether it's the repaving, the 100-Series, the secondary, or whatever for the province, and other areas within the jurisdiction of the department.

I will tell the honourable member that we hope to expand upon what we presently have. I believe it works well. Again, that's not based on any science, just based on the fact I drive that particular highway a lot and actually have seen vehicles move over onto those and quickly move back into the lane. I'm sure there have been accidents in this province and other places that were caused as a result of fatigue or just driver distraction or whatever. I'm sure those rumble strips played an important role with regard to ensuring that our highways remain safe.

I guess the shorter answer is, yes, we intend on doing more - whether it will be more this year or not depends on our budget. Again, if we do more, it will be more along Highway No. 104 toward Truro.

MR. GAUDET: I certainly welcome the minister's answer to that question. There's no doubt, I agree, I've seen what the minister has witnessed, when you're driving along, not necessarily Highway No. 104 but some other highway where there are rumble strips, and the vehicle in front of you somehow goes to the right and once they hit those rumble strips, they

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move back to the centre of their lane. So I certainly hope that the department considers calling more tenders.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to move to another area now. Last September the department had to spend at least $2 million to repair flood-damaged roads throughout seven counties in Nova Scotia. I know the department has no control over the weather and especially on heavy rains, but some parts of these roads were completely washed out and when situations happen, unfortunately, the department staff has to go in and repair these washouts. So my first question is, does the department - I guess I'm looking in terms of do they provide additional funding to help out in times of need to those areas - in this case there were seven counties back in September of last year. Does the department have a special budget for assisting areas when flooding, when crisis comes about? So maybe if the minister could answer that first question.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for the question. He's absolutely right, there were additional costs that the department faced last year as a result of those flooding issues that the honourable member mentioned. I can tell the honourable member that there is a certain amount of money that would be kept within the department for situations like that, that we would be able to access in the event situations occur that they're out of our control and they're not expected, and can't be budgeted for actually. One year you may need it and one year you may not. If you don't need it next year for flooding, we'll probably need it for something different. So the department does keep some and there is availability and discretionary monies in the department that can be used for that type of, I guess, occurrence taking place.

I will say as well, and the honourable member would be well aware of this, if in the event we have that type of damage province-wide and it meets the federal program for disaster funds, where the province I believe has to pay the first $1 million and then we will be able to access monies nationally and federally, then certainly we would apply for those funds as well. That has happened in the past and, in fact, just happened quite recently over the last few years. So there are two things there - money is available within the department, yes, and obviously we would look to the federal government to assist in fact if it's over $1 million damage province-wide.

MR. GAUDET: I'm just curious, the minister made reference to this so-called discretionary fund that's within the department. I guess the obvious question is, how much is in this discretionary fund and where would we find it in the department's budget?

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, thank you for the question. On Page 23.9 under Maintenance Improvements, under Roads, we would keep $0.5 million to $1 million of non-TCA money available for events such as the honourable member brought forward.

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I'm sure throughout the year, again whether it's flooding or some other occurrence, some other occurrence that we never planned for and didn't budget for - it could be a bridge somewhere that collapsed. I'm thinking of the issue brought forward in the last couple of weeks in Pictou County where there was a collapse of a culvert, Morrison Creek culvert. We're estimating, you know, somewhere around $0.5 million to $0.75 million, but $0.5 million, you know, that we never planned for, we didn't budget for. So when something like that happens, we have to have the ability to repair that. Citizens are cut off from their community and there's 17 kilometres or 18 kilometres of detour and we have to have the ability within our existing budget to actually address a problem like that and do it right away.

So under that Maintenance Improvement section of the budget, under Roads, there will be $0.5 million to $1 million that will be kind of kept in abeyance with regard to the possibility of an event like that happening and that the department has the ability to address it.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to move on to two ferries in western Nova Scotia and I've been asked, I just want to bring these questions to the attention of the minister. Bay Ferries operates two ferries in western Nova Scotia. First of all, we have The CAT that runs out of Yarmouth to Bar Harbor, Maine, and Portland, Maine. We have the Princess of Acadia that runs out of Digby to Saint John, New Brunswick. With The CAT first of all, some people from the tourism industry, especially from the Clare area, have asked questions with regard to the ferry sailing schedule knowing that the provincial government did provide a $2.5 million grant to Bay Ferries to help with that operation.

That was done, Mr. Chairman, last Fall, the Fall of 2007. So the question that I've been asked - maybe the minister knows - the question is, why hasn't the province tried to get a better deal with the ferry sailing schedule allowing The CAT to stay some nights, or spending some overnights, I guess, in Yarmouth and some nights in Maine to help our tourism operators. Not just in Clare but in all of western Nova Scotia, you know, from Annapolis County, Digby County, Yarmouth County, right down to Shelburne County, instead of having The CAT docking overnight in Maine every night.

I've been asked that question, I don't know if the minister has some information on the ferry sailing schedule. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if the minister could provide some information that I could pass on to tourism operators in western Nova Scotia.

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member opposite for what I would say is a very, very important issue in regard to southwestern Nova Scotia. I'll begin by saying that it's an issue that has been brought to my attention and I know the government's attention, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage has been involved in the Yarmouth area, and I know the Minister of Energy who represents that area has been heavily involved in this issue. I know there have been a lot of discussions with Bay Ferries around not only the issue the honourable member is talking about but, in fact, the future of the ferry between Digby and

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Saint John. As the honourable member would know, the province has committed $2 million along with New Brunswick and the federal government to a commitment there to try to ensure the future of that ferry.

I know that the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, the Minister of Energy, and the Minister of Economic Development - actually that file would fall under Economic Development in regard to Bay Ferries and the issue you're bringing forward. But I know there have been discussions with Bay Ferries about not only that issue, but the whole issue around the future of southwestern Nova Scotia and its ability to attract tourists, the ability to assist the tourism industry down that way to not only encourage, but support the present businesses that are in that area of the province that are very dependent upon ferry service in Nova Scotia. So I can't say specifically, but I've talked to some of them myself personally about the schedule and again the file would fall under Economic Development.

I know that the government through various departments, including ours, and the other ones I just mentioned, had discussions with the owners of Bay Ferries about the future and about our whole strategy around southwestern Nova Scotia in the future. So that part of it is very important, but to the bigger picture, there are a lot of discussions and a lot of emphasis is being put on that issue. The government is trying to do what we can to ensure that the ferry service continues in the future for the people of southwestern Nova Scotia, in fact for all of the Maritime Provinces. I believe that the ferry service is a vital transportation link again for southwestern Nova Scotia, for the Yarmouth and Digby areas, but as well for the business people of this province, and we hear it often. I think we have to collectively as a government do everything we can do to ensure the future of that service.

MR. GAUDET: Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, the amount of time that has been allotted to debate the estimates in Supply will come to an end tomorrow. My understanding is the Department of Economic Development is the last one on the list for this Chamber, so I would love to be able to save this question for the Minister of Economic Development. Maybe I could ask the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, if at all possible, could he look into when the province did provide $2.5 million to Bay Fer