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MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Committee on Supply will now be called to order.

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates of the Department of Community Services.

Resolution E2 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $912,570,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Community Services, pursuant to the Estimate, and the business plan of the Nova Scotia Housing Development Corporation be approved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Community Services.

HON. JUDY STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, it's an honour to appear before this committee and present the budget of the Department of Community Services for the 2008-2009 fiscal year. I am pleased to have two senior staff with me today for support - George Hudson is the Executive Director of Finance and Administration, and George Savoury, the Executive Director of Family and Community Support. I know that this House is no stranger to the two Georges and these are my two Georges. Certainly there is no question that I'll take my two Georges any day, backing me.

Mr. Chairman, I will also mention I have some staff in the gallery today who are here for support and, again, it's a pleasure to work with the fine folks at the Department of Community Services who are truly the guts and the hard work, in and out, every day at the department.

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[8:45 a.m.]

Mr. Chairman, this estimates debate gives me a chance to profile the Department of Community Services and to talk about the programs and services we'll be delivering this fiscal year. As members of this House are aware, the scope of the Department of Community Services is huge. On any given day we're dealing with anything and everything from runaway children, or family conflict, to finding emergency shelter for a family whose home has just burned to the ground; we're also dealing with the single mom, helping her find subsidized daycare for her children so she can go to work without worry; we're helping income assistance clients through our Educate to Work Program so they can get the skills and training they need to return to the workforce; and we're busy helping a son or daughter with intellectual disabilities access our Independent Living Support Program so their aging parents can be reassured about the future. I don't think anyone in this room would argue that all parents feel the concern for all of their children each and every day.

Mr. Chairman, I could talk for days about the good work happening within the Department of Community Services and how that good work extends into every community within this province, but I promise to only give you the highlights. If I could offer a personal observation, I've had the pleasure of serving as Minister of Community Services - and I emphasize the pleasure - for two years now. While I have to admit I was not familiar with the breadth and width of the service of this department, I want to tell this committee it has been an honour to immerse myself in this good work. For anyone who doesn't truly grasp the scope of the tremendous work that goes on each and every day behind the scenes at our department, I would encourage all members of this House to educate themselves in the phenomenal work going on.

All too often we see the highlights, or the headlines, or we hear of the unfortunate cases. While those ones are extremely important and valuable, I would encourage members to reflect, investigate and truly come to know about the amazing individuals who we have the pleasure of dealing with every day. Again, even though sometimes we tend to think of the negative ones, or the ones that cause the controversy, I would suggest that folks take a look at the hard work that goes on behind the scenes to truly get the full scope of the work at the Department of Community Services.

It's often confusing for folks, the title of that department. As I've met with ministers across the country, some ministries are Social Services, some ministries are Community Services - my goodness, some ministries, even in Atlantic Canada, combine the Departments of Health and what we know as Community Services to have a broader health and social living portfolio. Truly, when you reflect upon the idea of community services, people often think it is about community development or they think it's about an economic development component. In reality, we are about community development of the person and the development of community within families - so it is a little bit confusing for some people who don't quite understand the full scope of what goes on at the department.

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As members of this House have been elected to represent their constituents as best they can, I, as minister, have taken up the cause of many organizations and many individuals and presented many of these cases to Cabinet. It's been my pleasure to do that. As everyone here knows, financial decisions have to be made in the context of a business case - I wouldn't stand at the desk of the Minister of Finance and not be able to say that - but I can also assure everyone that we make decisions at the Department of Community Services with our hearts, because it's the right thing to do. If we do not first have a strong economy and a sound fiscal plan to spend what we can afford, then in reality more Nova Scotians may have to resort to the programs and services of our department. With that in mind, I am pleased to say that 2008-2009 budget for the Department of Community Services has increased again this year.

As the resolution states, we are proposing a budget of $912,570,000 for 2008-09 - for Community Services this means an increase of approximately $26 million. We have an additional $10 million of affordable housing funding to invest and $6 million in new funding will be spent enhancing programs under the Services for Persons with Disabilities Program areas. As with all departments, we are recording an increase in civil service salaries and for staff employed at Children's Aid Societies, service delivery agents in the areas of services for persons with disabilities, and housing authorities.

The Community Services mandate is to promote independence, self-reliance, security and the well-being of the people it serves. We continue to deliver on our mandate and meet our goals.

Mr. Chairman, we have made significant strides within our Services for Persons With Disabilities Program. This group supports children, youth and adults with long-term mental illness, intellectual and/or physical disability, in a range of community-based, residential and vocational day programs. Approximately 4,800 individuals with disabilities are supported through various voluntary programs designed to support people at various stages of their development and independence.

Beginning in 2002-2003, the Department of Community Services initiated the renewal of the SPD Program in order to develop a more responsive, accessible and sustainable system of supports for Nova Scotians with disabilities. The primary objective of the initiative was to undertake a review of all aspects of the program including access, assessment, client supports, licensing and funding. Extensive consultation took place with community organizations, advocacy groups, service providers and families across the province, to hear their concerns and to gather information and ideas to help inform the development of a new SPD Program.

The most challenging issue facing the SPD Program, prior to the beginning of the renewal initiative, was finding the appropriate mix of residential and support services for persons with disabilities. Staff members in the Department of Community Services are taking on this challenge by working within a vision which enables individuals with disabilities to

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live to their fullest potential within their communities - the SPD Program is moving away from the custodial model of care that has operated in this sector for many years. Based on individual abilities, needs and wishes, we are helping persons with disabilities strive for independence - truly one of the things, Mr. Chairman, I find most satisfying within the department today.

The principles guiding this philosophical change include: fostering independence and self-reliance; building on community inclusiveness; person-centred planning; working collaboratively; developing a sustainable and equitable range of support; becoming accountable, transparent, and maintaining open communication; and accessing research and best practices to guide development. Over the past three years our government has supported the Department of Community Services in its work to achieve the right blend and number of facility-based and community-based supports and services - which we refer to as a continuum - with the primary emphasis on building and integrating these supports into our communities.

In the past year we've announced initiatives such as the development of a regional rehabilitation centre, which is RRC- level facility in the Halifax area to address the needs of individuals with very high, complex behaviourial support and care needs; the renovation of Riverview in Stellarton, including building three new, eight-bed community homes, an investment of almost $19 million; an investment of $800,000 in a new, six-bed community home in Port Hawkesbury, and three more in development - one in Antigonish, one along the South Shore, and the other in Halifax; and the expansion of the Independent Living Support Program that helps people maintain their independence, while ensuring they have enough support to meet their daily needs. Government has done this by increasing the SPD Program budget from $186 million in 2006-2007, to the current budgeted amount for 2008-2009 of approximately $217 million, helping to lay the appropriate foundation.

I just mentioned a few of last year's initiatives - an even more complete list of initiatives under the SPD renewal process would include 85 independent living support placements; 35 alternate family support placements; four new community homes; a transitional home for persons coming from East Coast Forensic Hospital; redevelopment of a home for individuals living with mental illness in metro; new homes for youth with complex needs in eastern and western regions; a new transitional day program for up to fifteen 18- to 21-year-olds in the Strait region, affectionately known as Strait to Work; continued funding of the access to community employment and education program for students with disabilities who have graduated from school; provided funding to the regional occupational centre in Port Hawkesbury for a satellite day program serving individuals in rural areas of Richmond County; funding to adult service centres, $1.5 million in 2007; and the Riverview home renovation, I had mentioned, along with the former Cobequid Centre.

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You know, Mr. Chairman, I just mentioned the Riverview Adult Residential Centre in my list as one of the major initiatives that we announced last fiscal year, but I also want to take a few moments and talk about Riverview from a different perspective.

At the request of the Pictou County MLAs, and my own staff as well, who recognized that Riverview needed serious renovations and required more space, I travelled to Stellarton one day last summer, and I met with the administrator and I toured Riverview. I met the residents. Well, first let me tell you how impressed I was with the connection between staff and the residents. While the building is old and in need of updating, the warmth of that day was due to the relationships between the staff and residents. The Riverview group is truly a family. It is obvious and it is heartwarming to see.

[9:00 a.m.]

The Premier and I were back in early October last year to announce the complete package of renewal for Riverview. We are starting with the three new community homes, and the existing building will be renovated to accommodate the requirements of aging people who may now have physical challenges to deal with as well as intellectual disabilities. A new wing will be built on to the newly renovated Riverview Centre, which will be the home to about twenty-four residents.

While that was all welcome news to the residents, staff, administration, and the board of directors, it was a round of adversity which highlighted this group to a broader audience. A few months ago, Mr. Chairman, when we were in the middle of a very cold January, Riverview experienced a small fire which caused a large flood - actually it wasn't a fire, it was simply a sprinkler malfunction. To ensure the residents' safety, it was necessary to evacuate the entire building. Now, first the staff did a wonderful job during a very difficult time for the residents, and difficult for the staff as well. Community Services Director of Emergency Social Services, John Webb, sprang into action. As always, the Red Cross was immediately on the case. The Riverview staff responded to the residents' needs by providing support and supervision to residents as they were relocated on a temporary basis to various fire halls throughout Pictou County. These local fire departments were absolutely spectacular in their response to the situation, which lasted a few days longer than anticipated.

I visited Riverview again that week, Mr. Chairman, and I have to say I was more impressed than ever, not only with the Riverview staff for their dedication and their wonderful care for the residents whose world had just been turned upside down, but also for the tremendous volunteer effort from the good folks in Pictou County. These are the people behind the residential facilities, the community homes, the day programs, who work in support of services for persons with disabilities.

The Department of Community Services is developing a process to share and receive feedback from the review of the adult service centres and residential sector. This summer,

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Community Services staff will be working closely with the service provider sector to advance recommendations. This review will ensure that service providers receive appropriate funding based on the principles of fairness, involvement, consistency, accountability and transparency. We very much value the important partnership we have with service providers who care for and support individuals with physical and/or intellectual disabilities. We have earmarked $3 million for this initiative and another $3 million for our core activities.

The SPD Program area currently has a funding strategy for residential service providers underway. The goal of this strategy is to ensure appropriate and standardized operational funding support is provided to our residential service providers. This $6 million investment will build on the work we have started over the past number of years in a very significant way. We will ensure that more individuals with disabilities, and their families, have access to our programs by increasing our capacity and infrastructure across the province. This funding will help us better meet the needs of the almost 5,000 Nova Scotians with disabilities who depend upon our support.

Since 2005, the SPD budget has grown 29 per cent - of that, I am very proud, Mr. Chairman. We have already shown significant movement, from that philosophical shift I spoke about earlier, into real progress for real people.

Now we have heard many stories from parents who are receiving a subsidy so their child could attend a licensed, child care facility, allowing a mom or dad, or both, to provide a living for their family. We are in the third year of our ten-year plan, investing $200 million in early learning and child care. We are helping to provide quality, choice child care for this generation of working families. It is a long-term plan, Mr. Chairman, that is sustainable. Our plan will be fully implemented by year five and we will see 1,000 new spaces, more inclusive child care, a recruitment and retention strategy, a significant boost in funding to address salaries, equipment and infrastructure, and also making child care more affordable for low-income families - we just reduced the daily parent fee to $1 a day and increased the income eligibility for parents.

We also announced family home daycare, a key initiative of our early learning and child care plan. This provides another option to Nova Scotia families that provides flexibility and will help increase daycare spaces, particularly, Mr. Chairman, in rural areas of our province, where the choices may be more limited than in the urban core.

This year, we are investing $6 million to help create 250 child care spaces around the province and replace existing seats - that's on top of the funding we have already provided, which is helping to create 500 child care spaces throughout the province. We're doing great things for the child care sector that is benefiting Nova Scotia families who access child care.

I've travelled the province and have seen first-hand the amazing and caring early childhood educators; I've also seen the benefits of the funding that we have provided. For

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example, we know that having fun while playing safe at licensed child care centres will be easier thanks to a provincial government one-time grant worth $4.9 million. The Department of Community Services' Outdoor Play Space Grant encourages physical activity and healthy child development. The grant was available to full- and part-day licensed child care centres, including school-age centres and family home agencies. I know my colleague, the Minister of Health Promotion and Protection, would certainly applaud any initiative that encourages physical activity and a healthy lifestyle.

Mr. Chairman, this funding helps centres with the costs associated with creating a safe environment for children to play. We know outdoor play is an important part of a child's day and this funding encourages healthy, active and safe place spaces and equipment for children in licensed child care. The one-time grant allows centres to improve landscaping, fencing and equipment like climbers. We've also moved forward on our commitment to enhance staff salaries and benefits which, in turn, provides the foundation for the recruitment and retention of staff. The Child Care Operating Grant is a key part of the ELCC plan that's available to licensed, commercial and non-profit, full-day child care centres - centres receive $8 per day per occupied space for infants, $3 per day for occupied space for children 18 months old to school age. The Child Care Operating Grant is about $54 million of the almost $200 million plan.

Mr. Chairman, we know that wages for child care workers are a critical factor in the competitive recruitment and retention of staff. This funding could also help develop a staff pension program or increase vacations and improve the lives of these coveted and appreciated employees. I am both pleased and proud of the significant improvements and increased accessibility we have accomplished on behalf of the sector, parents, and children in this province.

Mr. Chairman, we know we have more to do and we look forward to, again, investing each and every year in children, in the educators, in the centres, and indeed investing in the future. One of the primary responsibilities of the Department of Community Services is to ensure the basic needs of individuals and families are met by protecting children and adults at risk. While we can't always predict the kind of demand that will be placed upon the department at any given time, we know with absolute certainty that we will meet the demand. The department has implemented several initiatives to address the number of children in care, such as hiring more adoption staff and finding new permanent homes for children in care. Mr. Chairman, I would want every member of this House to rest assured that we will meet the needs of children in care, which will always take precedence over a line in a budget forecast.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I have never failed to be impressed whenever I visit a family resource centre anywhere in this province. In many Nova Scotian communities, both rural and urban, family resource programs might be the only place vulnerable families can go for help and support. Family resource programs and staff are able to provide a wide range of

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services, programs and responses to the diverse families coming through their door - this includes everything from managing a family crisis to delivering literacy programs. Family resource programs are all about prevention and building capacity in both families and communities.

They not only provide services to families, but they build bridges so families can make connections with other community providers and families ensure that the work started at the family resource program is sustained after families may no longer use the services. I would encourage all members of this Legislature to visit their family resource centre in their community, take part in the programming, interact with the families, the children, and especially with those dedicated volunteers and staff who, each and every day, truly play a huge role in the lives of families, which we may not always realize.

You are all familiar with our provincial strategy for children and youth, Our Kids Are Worth It. Implementation of the strategy is well underway - four regional specialists are coordinating the work of local and regional working groups to ensure a unified provincial vision for the strategy that is informed by local needs.

The provincial Child and Youth Social Policy Committee, comprised of senior officials from the Departments of Health, Education, Community Services, Health Promotion and Protection ,and Justice, meet regularly, fulfilling the goal of greater collaboration and co-operation of service delivery of those departments that serve the needs of children, youth and families in Nova Scotia.

In 2008-09, the government will build on the ten initiatives already implemented through the Child and Youth Strategy. These initiatives, involving more than twenty-five partnering agencies across the province, are delivering services that were previously identified as gaps in service. Here are some of the examples of the progress already underway: Youth Navigators will assist youths 16 to 18 years old, and their families, to access appropriate available resources; Parenting Journey will provide in-home parenting support for families who are challenged with the behaviour and needs of their children over the age of three to sixteen; and Schools Plus will promote a model of using schools as important hubs for a range of service delivery to children, youth and families.

[9:15 a.m.]

For this year the strategy's focus will be to monitor and evaluate the implementation and outcomes of the initiatives which began in 2007-2008 and to continue to identify needs, gaps and opportunities for additional and expanded initiatives through a provincial consultation process involving regional and local working groups attached to the strategy. We look forward to the outcomes, and continuing to fill those gaps in our communities.

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The Employment Support and Income Assistance is the single highest expenditure group within our departmental budget. We will be assisting more than 44,400 people with an investment of over $340 million in 2008-2009. I am pleased to report that, for the fifth consecutive year, income assistance rates will once again increase - effective October 1^st of this year, all income assistance recipients will receive a monthly personal allowance increase based on the consumer price index.

This represents a 15.6 per cent increase in personal allowance rates over the past five years. Outside of the IA program, but of tremendous value to families is the Nova Scotia Child Benefit provided through the Canada Child Tax Benefit, and there is continued good news from the Employment Support and Income Assistance Program. While we are increasing benefits for our clients, our overall caseload continues to decline - close to 1,200 people came off income assistance last year.

This is due to the combined effect of positive economic factors and employment opportunities. This is a tangible example of what a vibrant economy can do for Nova Scotians - with more people participating in the workforce we can, in turn, provide more funding to the people who depend upon us for financial support. While it's certainly good news that the caseload is down 5 per cent, our population is aging. Program expenditures for special needs has risen to meet the health and safety needs of vulnerable Nova Scotians and to assist with employment support. Mr. Chairman, staff with our Employment Support Services program or, as we call it, the ESS component of the ESIA Program are helping clients develop plans for future employment, helping them prepare resumés and getting the training or experience they need to return to the workforce.

In 2007-08 we had these kinds of encouraging results: 259 income assistance recipients participated in the Educate to Work Program; 1,800 IA recipients were involved in the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning; Winter Works provided 1,030 job opportunities for Nova Scotians; over $2.5 million was invested in community-based projects to assist IA recipients gain employability skills to help them connect to the labour market; approximately $800,000 was targeted directly to youth; more than $650,000 was invested to support individuals having a disability connect, or remain connected, to the labour market; approximately $250,000 was invested through the Youth Development Initiative to support youth in the areas of employment, leadership, and skills development; over $700,000 was directed to IA clients to enable them to gain work experience through a targeted wage subsidy program across the province; and ESS partnered with Service Canada to provide basic skill development in the areas of life skills, academic upgrading, and work to employment- disadvantaged Nova Scotians through six work activity programs throughout the province.

Mr. Chairman, to put this all in context, 2,800 ESS clients found work last year. These are clearly the kind of results we intend to pursue again this year, and we are committed to spending $26 million this year on affordable housing; $15 million is designated

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for the Affordable Housing Trust; $6 million is earmarked for the Off- Reserve Aboriginal Housing Trust; and $5 million is going to the Affordable Housing Program.

By working with the community and private and non-profit sectors we expect to see $26 million committed to making more affordable housing available to Nova Scotians by the end of the fiscal year. We will invest all of the $23 million from the September 2006 federal Affordable Housing Trust - $15 million this year. The federal Affordable Housing Trust is being used to regenerate social housing projects and add new stock to the province's social housing portfolio, specifically: social housing modernization and regeneration; regeneration, renovation, or major repair of existing social/public housing; elevator retrofits, which I know is of great interest to many in this House, and other aging in-place improvements will help ensure the sustainability of valuable housing stock; and new rental construction providing publicly owned housing for persons in need.

The following describes new unit development planning under this fund by region: the Eastern region - 24 seniors' units on Argyle Street in Sydney, 2 barrier-free units on Terrace Street in Sydney, three seniors' units in Sydney Mines, and two family units in North Sydney; in the Northern region - four to six family units in Amherst; in the Central region - four family units on Gottingen Street and 24 seniors' units on Acadia Place; in the Western region - four family units on Main Street in Yarmouth, one family unit on George Street in Kingston, two family units on Rocknotch Road in Greenwood, two family units on Dale Street in Wolfville, and two family units on Murray Drive in Centreville.

Community Services will invest $6.7 million from the federal government's $7.8 million Off-Reserve Aboriginal Housing Trust this fiscal year. Service delivery agents have been identified throughout the off-reserve community and have begun delivering the programs. The purpose of the trust is to increase investment in, and the availability of, adequate and affordable housing units and to assist in addressing short-term housing needs, specifically for Aboriginal households living off-reserve.

Under the Affordable Housing Program, $44 million has been committed to increase the supply of affordable housing across the province. As of April 1, 2008, over 1,070 affordable housing units have been created or preserved around Nova Scotia; an additional 70 rent supplement units and 85 units are in the planning stage; and we will continue to support affordable housing created under the Affordable Housing Program beyond March, 2009, in the form of numerous rent supplements.

To date, the regional breakdown of the Affordable Housing Program agreement investments is as follows: Cape Breton, 229 units; Northern, 183 units; Central, 200 units; Western, 300 units; rent supplement, 70 units; and planning stage, 85 units. The total, 1,070 units. These numbers and stats are all well and good, but let me tell you in real terms how this housing funding is helping all over our province - and I know that some of you will be

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familiar and happy to hear about these stories and examples because it isn't units, it's Nova Scotians, it's families.

The Dartmouth Non-Profit Housing Society has been quietly helping hundreds of low- and moderate-income families find affordable housing in Dartmouth for more than a quarter-century, with the help of an operating subsidy from the Department of Community Services. I'm inspired by the work Dartmouth Non-Profit does to help struggling families. Few people appreciate the impact the Dartmouth Non-Profit Housing Society has on the lives of so many people. Community Services is truly honoured to be able to work with the society to meet these needs.

The society assists eligible people by providing rent subsidies, and has helped families gain access to affordable homes that meet their needs. Last year, at its 25^th Anniversary ceremony, the board signed a new operating agreement with Community Services. The agreement was the final step in a restructuring process that began in 2003 and helped the society simplify its funding and administrative processes. The society also presented the department with a cheque, paying back an $80,000 emergency loan from the department in the late 1990s.

Mr. Chairman, talk about a true success story. There was a time when they weren't sure they would be able to keep up operations, Chairman Bruce Heatherington said that day. Thanks to the restructuring plan they developed with Community Services, they are financially secure and they are better able to provide better quality housing for our tenants.

Mr. Chairman , in Cape Breton, through the Canada-Nova Scotia Affordable Housing Agreement, Cape Breton residents have access to more affordable housing in Sydney, North Sydney, and Sydney Mines. Last Fall we announced that 130 units of affordable housing for families, singles, seniors, and people with disabilities are being built or have been renovated. We are committed to investing in affordable housing in Cape Breton. With the help of our federal partners and business partners, we are creating and preserving affordable housing across the island.

Through the Canada-Nova Scotia Affordable Housing Agreement the federal government contributed $1.9 million in capital funding for the three projects, the Department of Community Services is providing $285,000 to subsidize rent for the units.

Northside Property Holdings converted a former commercial building at 177 Queen Street in North Sydney into six family apartments, including one wheelchair- accessible unit. The project cost is estimated at $282,000. The project received $108,000 from the Government of Canada under the Canada-Nova Scotia Affordable Housing Agreement.

In Sydney, Donovan Rentals renovated 104 affordable family row houses at MacAulay's Lane, Rockcliff Crescent and Sidella Drive. The $1.3 million project received

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$1.2 in federal funding under the agreement. The third project, by New Deal Developments, is a 20-unit affordable housing project for singles and seniors on Pitt Street in Sydney Mines. The $1.3 million project is under construction and will receive $500,000 in federal funding and $285,000 in rent subsidies from the Province of Nova Scotia.

[9:30 a.m.]

Mr. Chairman, in March of 2007 some Halifax residents moved into new, affordable energy-efficient homes in Fairview - 23 units of affordable rental housing were built on Main Avenue. Jacob's Manor is a showpiece in affordable housing. A lot of thought went into designing good, quality housing that the community can be proud of. There's a great example of how we can create new housing that is both affordable and energy-efficient. The building meets R-2000 standards and has many energy-efficient features such as compact florescent bulbs, front-loading washing machines, fibreglass windows, and a geothermal heating and cooling system. The units are heated, cooled and provided with hot water by an advanced geothermal heat system which draws energy from the ground. The building has an elevator and two wheelchair-accessible units. All units are accessible to visitors with mobility challenges.

The building was named Jacob's Manor in memory of the late Jacob Ghosn, the father of Cristine Kahil and Jasmine and Peter Ghosn, who run the family business, Rockingstone Developments Incorporated. It was a pleasure to be at the opening with those developers, with those families.

This government is committed to helping seniors age in place and continue to live in their homes and their communities longer. This year we will have approximately $6 million available for home repair and adaptation programs specifically for We recognize that seniors want to be able to stay in their own homes as long as they can and we are pleased to be able to provide help through home repair and adaptation programs. The department's overall investment in 2008-2009 for repair and adaptation programs is over $18 million.

A North Sydney senior said she would have been forced to leave her home of 51 years if it wasn't for one of the repair and adaption programs of the Department of Community Services - the funding allowed her to replace doors, windows and a bathtub, making her home safer and warmer. Mr. Chairman, she told us: I really appreciate the whole thing, it would have been hard for me to go somewhere else. I didn't want to go to a seniors' place, I wanted to stay in my own house.

Mr. Chairman, often in this Legislature we hear the opposite - we hear of the individuals who have not had success with our programming. I think it is equally as important to recognize those who have had success, and continue to work hard to ensure that those who haven't will be able to gain access to our programming. In fact, this Nova Scotian woman is one of almost 1,600 low-income seniors who will be able to stay in their homes

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this year - that's 450 more than last year, thanks to an injection of new money into the province's senior citizens' home repair and adaptation programs.

I want to take this opportunity to thank my staff at the Department of Community Services for their hard work and dedicated nature. I know that members of this House have voiced their appreciation for the co-operation they receive from Community Services employees when we are trying our best on behalf of Nova Scotians who may be asking for our help.

Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the debate that will now take place, and at the end of that debate I will once again rise and thank my staff. I look forward to the discussion that will take place now with the other members of the House.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

MR. TREVOR ZINCK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the minister for her opening comments, and I want to welcome staff members George and George. I believe the second George was here last year. I think I welcomed both of you, yes, absolutely.

I've been fortunate to be the Community Services Critic now for two years and I can honestly say, coming in, it was a learning experience. The department covers a vast variety of issues that are taking place in the province, a daunting task that a minister would have to take on - and the challenges that she or he would have to voice to the Cabinet table, it's incredible, it's immense.

After listening to the minister in her opening statements, judging from all the good things that are happening, I'm not sure if there's much to criticize - but there is. There are issues; there are a number of issues, Mr. Chairman. In two years as the critic, I have more and more concerns; I see more and more Nova Scotians falling behind. The minister talked about caseloads decreasing - some people have sought employment through programs offered by the government, and some people have come off the system because now they're on disability or pensions with the federal government.

I want to begin, as well, by thanking the staff at the Portland Street office whom my assistant, Richard Edwards, and I work with on a day-to-day basis - Greg Cromwell, Ron Hann and Jim Burgess have been very, very good with some of the issues that we've had to deal with. We have had a lot of success. The case workers as well, we have developed a one-on-one relationship - I have sat in on many case conferences with them in hopes of getting assistance for some of my constituents.

I want to thank my researcher, Lori Errington, who, after eight years of being a researcher with the NDP, has really taken on the challenges and fully understands the issues

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that are affecting Nova Scotians. Without her taking some of the calls that come from around the province, I wouldn't be as well-armed to come here today.

I want to also thank my assistant, Richard Edwards, who has been an MLA's assistant for ten years - he was the previous MLA's assistant and he has taken on the challenge to continue to work with me. He comes with a wealth of knowledge and a big heart to take on many of the issues that we deal with. I know that not all MLAs have an area such as Dartmouth North to represent. What happens when I open my door up on Monday morning, the cases start piling in and you need somebody good who is going to be able to take on the challenges, listen to the stories, and help people get set on the right path.

As I said, Mr. Chairman, there are a lot of issues and I know the Premier, in the past few months, has made the statement that we will leave no Nova Scotians behind, but as many programs as the minister has just spoken about - and again, I understand the challenges are difficult, I see it daily, I have calls from all around the province on a variety of issues and over the next little while I, and my colleagues, will speak to that. We will talk about child care, we will talk about some of the youth issues, housing, and hopes of actually - and I am going to jump around, Madam Minister, I am going to talk about the budget, but I am going to talk about some of the policies that we have come up against and I am sure you will accommodate some of those areas of concern.

I am going to get right into the questioning and I am going to start with the ESIA program. You had stated in the opening that, again, for the fifth consecutive year, we are going to have an increase. I know that back in October of last year, when the increase came in, it equated to a $4 increase in the personal allowance. I know that at that time, when you were criticized by my Leader from Cole Harbour about the increase, you said that we have to look at the big picture, that it's an enormous amount of money.

My concern with the personal allowance increase only is that it's a minimal amount, for one, but what it actually gets used for in the urban core is to supplement individuals' rents. I'm wondering if you can tell me, and we will get into this a little further, why the government hasn't seen fit to be able to provide - and I know last year we talked about a homeless program, and we will get into that later, but I am wondering if you can tell me why the government hasn't seen fit to raise the shelter allowances when we know that rental increases have taken place in the last number of years with companies like TranGlobe moving in and Killam Properties?

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a comment about my honourable colleague, the member for Dartmouth North. Often in this House, we all do take ourselves very seriously and often in this House we find ourselves at times when political lines become very firmly planted in the ground, and I want to commend the member for Dartmouth North for his integrity, the integrity that I have watched him display as the critic, understanding he has a job to do and respecting the job he does, but the integrity that he has

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demonstrated to me as a person and the integrity that he has demonstrated to my staff. I don't say that lightly, I say it with all sincerity.

Now, Mr. Chairman, the member raises a very important issue. There were a couple of pieces to the question, so I'm going to try to talk to both pieces and then, if he has another question about the specifics of it, we can address that. We have, for the fifth year in a row, the fifth consecutive year, raised the income assistance for the personal allowance. I'm pleased with that and I know my honourable colleague is pleased with that. I make the honest statement - is it enough? It can never be enough. Would I like to do more? I would always like to do more - and I say that honestly.

Along with the increase in the personal allowance, I do want to make mention of a couple of other pieces and then I want to talk for a minute about the shelter increase. I know that my colleague is aware of these and I know that he understands these, but I feel it's important for me to remind others as well that along with the 15.6 per cent increase that this fifth increase will represent, we've also put other pieces in place.

The increased eligibility in income for families for subsidized child care; the reduction of the daily fee from $2.25 to $1; the no clawback of the federal Child Tax Benefit - all provinces don't do that and I'm proud that Nova Scotia does. We don't claw that back, Mr. Chairman - the special needs funding, $39 million on the budget line this year for those special needs funding; the 13 housing programs that we speak about; and, of course, your energy rebate and the changes that are coming that the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations knows much more about than I. So there are other ways that we help and, again, I know my honourable colleague knows that - I just need to get that on the record.

I want to now address the issue of the shelter increase. We did raise the shelter allowance for two years in a row, Mr. Chairman. I recognize that that's something that I will put on the table for discussion for again an increase for next year , and I'm happy to have that discussion with senior management and with Finance. But I raise the concern, and I know that my honourable colleague will understand this, the challenge becomes, when we raise the shelter allowance, sometimes we see a very similar raise in rent and I don't want that to be where those dollars go. So I think we need to be creative, and I would welcome suggestions from my honourable colleague if he has suggestions or ideas, because the last thing we would want is for a raise in shelter allowance that should go to individuals to help assist with that - so they don't have to use other monies to pay for that shelter - to then simply be transferred to a landlord.

[9:45 a.m.]

So I would welcome my honourable colleague's feedback on that and then I can take some of those suggestions forward.

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MR. ZINCK: Mr. Chairman, I apologize. In my opening remarks, I obviously neglected to state the fact that I have enjoyed a wonderful relationship with your staff, not just on the Portland Street side but here in Halifax. One of the opportunities and advantages of being a so-called urban MLA is the fact that I have, on many occasions, come over to the Spring Garden Road office and asked the commissionaire to just call up, I need two minutes of someone's time, and I've always been accommodated. So I want to thank you for that and thank you for your kind words because we all are here, all 52 of us, to work collaboratively on behalf of Nova Scotians, and I take that job very seriously.

The reason I raise this question is it's an important one because there is a myth out there - many in society feel that individuals on social assistance are living this so-called high life. I know I spoke on it back in the Fall when we talked about poverty reduction and we had a late debate on the $4 increase. It's frustrating to get people in society to understand the actual breakdown - and you're absolutely right, when a person is classified, as you know, is so-called disabled, we give them $535, $204 for personal , but when their rent is $575 or $600, as it is today in most of the area I represent, they're taking that money from somewhere else. I know that there are opportunities for special diet monies and perhaps a bus pass, but what happens and what we have to really get away from is - and you know, Madam Minister, that money doesn't always go for a bus pass, that special diet money, even though it might not be even enough to afford that special diet required, usually it goes back towards the rent, and that is a huge issue.

If I could offer up a remedy? That is a concern, because when I was first elected I raised that concern about the shelter allowances and having some sort of mechanism put in place to dissuade landlords from automatically increasing - and we know landlords have to make money and we know landlords want the rent collected on time so that they can keep up their buildings. We know that and we understand that, and we have to support that. We also know that they have rising costs in fuel and that's usually what triggers a rent increase.

There has to be something - and the advice I would give you is to speak with the minister at Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and talk about the possibility of some sort of legislation we could put in place in the Residential Tenancies Act that would dissuade landlords from taking that increase. Because you're absolutely right, we've known it for years, other members on this side of the Opposition have spoken about it for a number of years, landlords do take advantage of that.

But I really, really think it's an important piece because society thinks that individuals are living - let's call it high on the hog on social services. But, those who say someone is lazy and wants to be on social assistance, I don't think they really understand how much that individual is actually receiving. I talked to a mother last night in my community at a community function and she has three children, she's living on Pinecrest Drive, the landlord is very difficult and doesn't keep the building well. She receives $870 total from Community Services, and her rent for the three bedroom is $770 - so I guess, in bringing this up today,

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I'm hoping there are people out there watching or people who might pull the Hansard and actually get a real understanding.

I'll give you another example - I have a senior who is 60 years old who gets supplemented by Community Services. He's on a disability pension through the federal government - he receives $446 a month and he gets supplemented to bring him up to a certain standard, of what we would call living, by Community Services. So he's living on about $739. What people don't understand is that the rent is $575 - and what does that leave him? We know that has to include heat and lights, but the important piece we're really missing - and I know that the Premier and the Leader of the Liberal Party were probably happy, as we were, to see some sort of assistance program for low-income families come out of this budget and that's the Heating Assistance Rebate Program (HARP), but these individuals who are paying electricity in some of the older buildings, I would guarantee you, they can't wait until the end of the year to get that cheque, because that extra $8 to $10 a month is coming out of that personal allowance.

And I know, again, we'll see the $4 increase, but it's just that we have to somehow get the shelter allowance up to where at least people can have the shelter paid for and live at a decent standard, so they can get up every morning and feel good about having at least a good roof over their head.

I invite you to come to Dartmouth North sometime - I know you're really busy with everything you represent, but I can show you some of the buildings and some of the places these people are living in, and it's because over the years what we've done is we've allotted them certain amounts of money. I've said in this House before, for an individual ten years ago who was able-bodied, able to work, they would receive $235 if they lost their job or were on the street and now, after ten years, it's $300 for shelter and that's just not enough.

What we've done over the years is we've said, based on the amounts we've allotted you, you are only allowed to live in certain areas. Dartmouth North has always been affordable, but it has always come with a problem as well. I raise it because I wanted to dispel the myth. I welcome anyone to walk into my office and I will educate them, as I do with the people who come to me with issues. I will educate those people who think that individuals live high on the hog off social assistance, because nobody, honestly, who I meet who have issues with the department at times, or caseworkers, want to be on the system - no one.

I am going to go to - well, here, I will throw this at you. In your business plan you talk about the average monthly caseload being in decline since 2000-2001, and this is something else you might want to look at. It sat at 29,510 in 2006-2007. I think you mentioned a figure, but I will get you to mention a figure again, if you can - what is the caseload today? If the caseload is actually going down, why not use some of that funding - and I know you have mentioned that there are other programs that you do fund, but this is an important one.

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Because if the number of people on social assistance can't even pay their rent and are taking it from their personal allowance - you know, in all honesty, people are eating on less than $100 a month, and that leads into a whole other host of problems for the government, because these people aren't able to afford medical appointments, and I know we cover medications, but they are not able to eat heathily and then they become a burden on the health care system.

That is the overall holistic approach, and I know that we have seen the collaboration of departments with the Child and Youth Strategy. That's fantastic and I know, as I said, it's a daunting task and challenge that you take on, but if we are talking poverty reduction we are really going to have to get our government departments to work together and support you on some of the challenges that you have to take on. I know that every year we are going to come back and we are going to have to criticize the department, even though we do know that there are some good initiatives, but it is just not affecting the majority of Nova Scotians.

So, if the caseload is going down, why not use the funding made available to address some of the assistance rates?

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, again I thank my honourable colleague for the discussion. I find it such a learning process, estimate debate. People will say what a waste of time it is, but I find it a real big learning process. In Question Period we have 20 seconds to fire a question across and 20 seconds to get an answer out before the Speaker sits us down, but I find it much more engaging, the estimate discussion.

There are a couple of things that I wanted to reply to. I totally agree that the challenge of removing that stigma that is attached to income assistance recipients - even the wording around the programs and the people is a challenge. I totally agree with you - it's unfair, the stigma that is attached to it. And I have to agree with you, I haven't met very many of those Nova Scotian families we are helping who say to me, yeah, I can't wait to continue to have your help. So I totally agree, it's an unfair judgment and, in most cases, it is damaging. We know how important it is to break those cycles, and part of that big challenge is with the next generation, with the children, making sure that they don't fall victim to having that self-fulfilling prophecy and believing all the negativity that they hear. I agree with you - the more we can do to encourage others to see the true realities of those families who find themselves vulnerable and in need of our assistance, the better; the more we can do, the better.

I think you have actually hit on a really good idea. I leaned over to George and said, okay, let's send a letter off to the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. I think that going through the Residential Tenancies Act may be a way that we could ensure that, when the shelter allowance goes up, it doesn't automatically go to the landlord. So I am going to ask staff to send that information along, to see if there isn't something we can't do under the Residential Tenancies Act, that's a good idea - and of course, Mr. Chairman, I

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would be happy to come to Dartmouth North. It is always a challenge to try to make your way around the province, but I would be happy to.

Yes, the caseload is in decline, and we are pleased with that. We are pleased when we look at the caseload decline when we're able to make the direct correlation between going to work, improving one's situation in life - I don't want someone to come off our caseload and simply go on to another caseload and consider that a success, and I know you know what I mean by that. So the caseload decline, the individuals coming off the system, finding success in the workforce, finding a place for themselves in the community and in society that doesn't require our assistance is always cause to celebrate. We did have - I believe the exact figure was 1,200 came off, so we have continued to see that decline.

I recognize what you're saying, that if we take those dollars that we gain from the decrease and put them back in, then that just makes sense, and we do do that when we see that we have a caseload decline - you know we have a budget that's based on the approval of this House and so when we're able to reallocate dollars, we do. So when we find ourselves with a caseload decline, if we're able to do something of a one-time nature for a programming area for children or for families, we do that, but of course respecting that we can't change where monies go once the budget has been approved by this House. But I recognize what you're saying, that if we continue to see decreases in caseload, then we need to continue to examine how we best deliver those dollars to those who are still left on our caseload.

MR. ZINCK: I will concur with you, I think the budget estimates are a great opportunity. Mr. Chairman, I've had people throughout Nova Scotia say, you know I hope that you continue to be the critic. I tell them that as a representative of the people I have to expand my horizons sometimes and perhaps someday I won't be the Community Services Critic. That being said however, the stories I've heard, the people I've had to deal with, the home visits that I've taken, and the children that I've been involved with to try to get them set on the right path, those stories will never leave me. That's the message that I can consistently bring to this House in other deliberations and at the caucus table as well.

I say that because I know last year I brought up a point about overpayments with you and the fact that we immediately slap the $45 charge on them. I understand, businesswise, we have to get our money back, but you took that information back to the department and I know now that there has been a policy change - so the estimates debate is very good in my opinion.

I'm going to touch on a couple of other issues, and when I first came to this House in 2006 I touched on briefly about a more holistic approach when an individual actually approaches the department. As we know, the department is the last resort, and it's a very difficult step to take for an individual. Usually when someone comes to the office for help,

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we always say, well, call first - the onus is on you to call, and if you have an issue, then you can come back to us; always get a name and number.

[10:00 a.m.]

I know last year in the business plan you had stated that the emphasis and the philosophy is going to be more on a personal touch with clients, and I honestly believe that that is the key here. I know when individuals come into my office, that's how I deal with them. They come in with one problem, but the one problem is usually caused by a host of other issues and the job is, in my opinion, to get that person set on the right path, so when they go out the door they know what direction they're going in, okay? They know where to go to get the help. So I guess it's an overall philosophy of when an individual comes to the department, we go through the intake, we get assigned a caseworker - and keep in mind that it is a tough choice, as you know, and a lot of people don't realize, who have never had to ask for help, you're at your lowest point.

The holistic approach, in my opinion, would be to sit that individual down and ask why are you here, what has brought you here, because you know I can only give so much - or maybe you don't - but I'll tell you how much we can give you, tell me why you're here. Sit down and have a cup of tea or coffee and tell me your story. Then even though the programs are out there, the services are available, employment support workers are available, that individual might not be prepared to take on that challenge for obvious reasons. What I would really like to emphasize - and again take it back to staff - and I know there are great caseworkers, but there is an inconsistency in some of the follow-up, and I am going to get into some of the real quick questions that I am going to throw at you, but what I really would love to see is that a caseworker would take that time with that individual and ask what brought you here and where do you really want to go, and then put that individual on a plan.

I think this is where the caseloads would decrease, because what I've seen happening is the bank statement showing zero, last year's income tax and a place of residence, and whether or not you qualify you get a cheque, but then that caseworker doesn't come back into that individual's life over the next year, until something happens and we have to take something away from that individual.

What I would love to see is that caseworker to say, you know what? If you want education, I'm going to set you up with this individual; if you want a job, this is the person to call. It's the holistic approach that I hope someday the department will take on and give the caseworkers, because there is a misconception that caseworkers are actually social workers and we know they are not - some may be, but what I would love to see is that when an individual comes in, we put them on that three-month plan, that six-month plan, that nine-month plan, and then in a year's time this is where you are going to be, and do you know what? I am going to be following you. I am going to be following up on you and I am going

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to be behind you. And that, to me, is telling that individual we do care - we know we can only give you this much, but we are going to help you get to that next step.

As I said, it's important because I think the taxpayers would buy into that, I really do. If we fund that, if we get staff to actively pursue that, I really think society would buy into that, because that individual is going to know that we are behind them. We are not just going to be there to call them up and say well, do you know what? Someone called us and said your boyfriend was staying with you so we are going to cut you off, or your medical is cut off for this reason, or you didn't get the medical note in in time so your bus pass is cut off. That is no good. People don't feel good about that.

If we are really going to do this right and bring the caseloads down - and I know some people are going to have to be on the system and that's the part where we actually have to fund those people and make sure that they are healthy enough so that they are not being carried by the Health Department.

A couple of quick zingers. The medical notes - and my assistant asked me to bring this up - we know that individuals have to have the medical documentation in order to have special diet monies available, in order to have bus passes made available or medical transportation, and what we have noticed this past year is there was an inconsistency with some of the caseworkers. Some caseworkers would cut you off right away, so that when the cheque came out in January I had a number of calls, people saying I lost my bus pass or my special diet is gone - no one told me. Okay, we understand there is a responsibility, but then we had caseworkers who would call you a month out and say, look, Joe, you know you have to go get this medical documentation in to me in order for this to continue.

The reason I bring this up is that, again, it is something that I would like you to take back and take into consideration and maybe, possibly, implement again. Why can't we, three months out, toward the end of the year, just send out a memo with the pay stub or have the caseworker - and I know they deal with a lot of cases, but if we even electronically notify the client that their medical is up and it is going to have to be renewed, because when it happens, when that special diet is cut and the bus pass is cut - and like I said earlier, a lot of individuals, to be honest with you, are using that to supplement their rent so when that's gone, as you know, it's a crisis.

Unfortunately, I deal with a lot of crisis situations. I say to my assistant - we go out into the community, in different community focus groups and we talk to people - if you feel that there is an issue coming up, tell me a little bit beforehand. If you lose the tip of your finger, I can save the rest, but if you come to me and your whole finger is cut off, I can't save the finger anymore. So come to me as the issue is starting, or if you feel there is an inadequacy taking place, and we can correct that. But that piece, when it is cut off, when you lose that extra $87 off your cheque, that is dramatic in that individual's life. So if we can remedy that and take it back - maybe you can comment on that. I would appreciate it.

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MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, I thank my honourable colleague for the opportunity to, again, receive good advice. The whole issue of client service delivery and staff training, we have made that a priority. We have wonderful staff and I know my honourable colleague agrees with that. They're pushed to the limit; they work really hard. I know the consistency in the delivery is what we're all talking about here - we can have the best policies in the world and if they aren't consistently being adhered to or being delivered, then it's ineffective.

I've made note about the medical note situation - you're absolutely right, there's no reason why we can't look at that in a proactive manner instead of waiting for it to be reactionary after it happens - and the other George did lean in and say that's a good idea, and we're making note of that, we'll take that back. I'm always open to feedback and it's important that I hear about the inconsistencies and it's important that line of communication stay open, because without that we are just in a void, in a vacuum without that knowing. Certainly, it would not be the intention of me, as minister, or the staff, to ever cause that kind of grief intentionally. Anything we can do to prevent that from happening, we will certainly take under advisement.

MR. ZINCK: I'm really glad to hear that. The worst thing that happens to me, as an individual - and, again, it happened last night - my caseworker hates me and I don't know why, I need a bus pass for medical reasons, but he just won't give it to me. Who's your caseworker? I've had great dealings with this caseworker, give me a call tomorrow and we'll look at this and we'll make a connection. I've had great success when I bring that individual into the office and actually sit down with the caseworker. It's dramatic, and when it does happen, that's the issue. I mean, I hate the department, they're not helping me; I hate my caseworker, why did they do this? Right? Again, I agree, the onus is on the individual, but the caseworker on the other end is making a certain amount in their salary and an individual living on less than $700 or $800 a month, that's a crisis when that happens. Somehow we have to accommodate that.

Again, I'm hearing - and I know last year you sent out the nice, glossy newsletter with a lot of facts and figures and I know we criticized you for that, and you came back and said that this is information we're providing Nova Scotians, and that's great. One of the things you said, one of the figures you quoted was there was a certain percentage of individuals who felt they were respected when they came to the department. Now it's a difficult situation when somebody approaches the department for assistance, and I'm wondering if you can tell me how confident you are that all caseworkers are providing the clients, when they come to the office, with all the information about what they actually qualify for. I say that for two reasons - again this year I've heard the same as when I first came in, in 2006, they didn't tell me about this; they didn't tell me about the special diet; they didn't show me the medical form; they didn't tell me of this employment program; I didn't know about this.

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That's a frustration of mine because when an issue comes to the office, like I said, I'm spending a lot of time coordinating services for this individual, and that's fine, because it's the holistic approach, if I can get that individual set up. The first thing I do is I call the supervisor and say, look, let's sit down with this individual and get them set on the right path. Let's find out what they're actually able to be qualified for. But that should happen right away.

I want to know if you might be hearing that, or how confident you are that the caseworkers are actually giving and providing that information to clients when they come in. I also want to know if - because I've heard this and I need to be sure on it, and I hope you can tell me - do caseworkers receive, or is there a bonus system in place if they do come in under budget? Can you clarify that for me?

MS. STREATCH: Again, I thank my honourable colleague. A couple of pieces I would like to reply to - and I know we had the whole chat of the information flyer going out. In this House sometimes we bounce back and forth for political reasons, but I wanted to say that information piece we did send out to Nova Scotians, the response we got back was very interesting because we almost were victims of our own doing, because we put the information out there about our programs and literally the phones were ringing off the hook. People were saying, I had no idea you had programs for seniors; I had no idea I could have a subsidy for child care; you're kidding, there's a housing program going on; well, what about this? Here's my case; here's my situation. So, we put our information out there, we did create some business for ourselves, and I know we do talk about whether or not the actual communicating of that is necessary and I do, again, state that I think it's important, because I think it's important people know where that $912 million is going. I think it's important that people know it's there for them to access, and so again I make that comment.

I wanted to make a couple of points about my confidence in the staff. As I've said numerous times, we have amazing staff at the department. They deal with some of the most challenging situations that anyone in the civil service, in government in the province, could have to deal with. I am extremely confident in the ability of the front-line staff, the supervisors, senior management, right up the line. I know that they all have their hands full and I know that the consistency is the piece.

We orient all of our staff on a regular basis, and then we challenge them by changing something, putting a new policy in place, and so we have to continually make sure that those regional supervisors get the information so that they can filter it down through to their folks in the front line. The deputy goes on tour and goes right into the offices and speaks to our staff. Any time I'm around any of the departments, I directly go to front-line staff and ask what are your concerns, what are your challenges? So I know that there's an opportunity there to receive and give feedback, but I will take your concerns about that inconsistency back to the level where it belongs, because it is that consistency that is extremely important for Nova Scotians. As much as it is for the bureaucracy of our department, it is extremely

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important that Nova Scotians know if they need us, they come and they get treated with that consistent respect and that ability to access the programming.

And absolutely no, staff do not receive bonuses for any budget over or under - no, they don't, not at all.

MR. ZINCK: Mr. Chairman, thank you for that clarification because I've heard it recently actually, and I heard it when I first came in in 2006. Okay, that's got to be a little bit of a misconception there and I'll dig into this a little bit more to find out.

[10:15 a.m.]

Again, that's the feeling, and you talked about the flyer and I agree, but if we do that upfront you wouldn't have had to advertise about all the programs. Do you know what I'm saying? Again, that's the holistic approach that I hope someday we really take on when an individual approaches the department for help, and I think if we give them the knowledge of everything that they are, or potentially are, entitled to, or have the opportunity for, we wouldn't have to advertise all the good stuff we're doing. So thank you for that.

Keeping with the ESIA, I want to talk about Harvest Connection. You mentioned Winter Works in your opening, you didn't mention Harvest Connection. We know the benefits of both programs, absolutely. I have said at both poverty forums that we had over the last number of years, I know I raised the issue when Harvest Connection starts each year, and I'm wondering if it's possible, or if you've taken into consideration in the department, of expanding that into other sectors?

The reason I say that is it is an opportunity for an individual receiving community services to make that additional $3,000 a year. The difference in that $3,000 in someone's life who's living on less than $8,000 a year is immense. The difference to that individual who is able to participate in a program like Winter Works or Harvest Connection, might be the difference in allowing that individual to have the courage, or build up their self-esteem, to take on an actual full-time job. So I'm wondering if you can tell me if the department has, or is considering expanding that program to other sectors, because the way I see it is if I can get a single mother, we can get her some child care, to go out and work at McDonald's, work at Tim Hortons - we know what the minimum wage is now, if we can expand that into other sectors, I think we would have a really good opportunity at giving people a little bit more incentive to get off the system. So if you could answer that, it would be great.

MS. STREATCH: Thank you for the question. I am sure it will be something that will come up again in these estimate debates because it is an issue that I have shared with both sides of the House.

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Harvest Connection is a great program. It has challenges; we recognize that. We have the best intentions and so we have to make sure that what we know Harvest Connection can do, we are truly able to do it through the program. It is meant to provide that extra incentive for individuals who are able to go to the agricultural sector or to the Christmas tree harvesting sector and actually get out there and earn some extra dollars, not be penalized for that, while helping that shortage in the labour market. Again, like I say, it's great in its creation, the idea behind it.

Some of the challenges we have seen with it, and not that long ago - I don't have the date exact in my mind - I did convene a meeting with representatives from the Christmas Tree Producers of Nova Scotia and the Federation of Agriculture. There were some good folks from the Annapolis Valley there to help me out with ideas and input, staff from our department, from the employment support division of the department, because I really needed to understand why we weren't having greater uptake. It is a good program, why we weren't having greater uptake?

Some of the challenges that were identified for us were, I am sure, challenges that you are well aware of. Transportation was the biggest challenge. The whole issue of transporting individuals, providing that transportation link so people could actually get to the harvesting of the crops and get to the harvesting of the Christmas trees. So that transportation challenge is the biggest one that we encountered.

I had growers say to me, I will pay for the work boots. I am happy to provide the gear, the rain gear or the work gear, I am happy to meet you halfway. I am so happy to have the opportunity to get some workers, I will meet you halfway. I will pay for all of it, but I need to be able to get those people to the site. So that was one of the biggest challenges and it is interesting, again, like I say, I know it will come up again but it is interesting you raise it. We do have an ongoing team looking at how we can better the program as it exists right now, how and if we can expand it. I know that has been part of the poverty strategy the working groups have been doing as to how do we take some of the programs that exist now and how do we make them better so that they can address some of the issues that they are working with.

So the whole idea of continuing to look at it, to expand it if we can, to make sure that it does what we initially put it in place to do, those are all part of the ongoing consultations. So, yes, I am open to expanding it, but we need to make sure that it works how we initially meant it to work before we can even expand it anywhere else. I will keep the members updated on how those consultations go and I know that we have meetings planned for the real near future because the harvest season is very quickly upon us. In my opinion there is no sense having a program if it isn't effective, so we have to make it effective so it truly does what it is intended to do. Thank you.

[Page 384]

MR. ZINCK: Mr. Chairman, thanks to the minister for that answer. The reason I bring it up, obviously, is because I can't provide that program for somebody living in HRM. There are a large number of social assistance recipients in HRM who would benefit from an expansion of that program that would allow them to go into the retail sector, that would allow them to go into the food service industry. So I'm hoping that we can get that program to the point where it's more effective and that we can actually expand it, because I think that would be an important piece.

Now you bring up the poverty consultations and, again, back in the Fall, I was critical of this - not of the actual initiative of a poverty reduction strategy, because I have stated in this House that I believe it is the responsibility of any government that sits on that side of the House to have implemented and improve upon, and that is the poverty reduction strategy. We've seen that initiative in other countries, we've seen it in other provinces, and I think we have to uphold that.

I was critical of two things in the consultations. One was - and I know it was raised by my colleague, the member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley, earlier in the session regarding the lack of women's organizations that participated, but more so I am concerned with the fact that the Standing Committee on Community Services has spent two years listening to organizations and individuals, getting and gathering information and actually coming up with recommendations out of the poverty forums, and we have provided that to the department. Some of the initiatives have been taken into consideration, but not all.

One of the things that I said back in the debates in the Fall session was the fact that I honestly believe that in two years in the poverty reduction strategy, or two forums on poverty, we've come up with some real good, concrete recommendations that I know this side of the House has been discussing with organizations for the last eight, nine, ten years. In the Fall, what I said was that I believe that there are things that we can implement now that would impact people's lives as far as reducing poverty.

I want to encourage the department to continue on. I believe in June we're going to see some results, or response, from that task force, so I'm looking forward to seeing that, but one of the questions I want to end on, around the ESIA program, is the 70/30 split. I bring that up because it was a recommendation that was brought up two years in a row at the poverty reduction forums and I'm wondering if there has been some movement on that, if there has been some consideration of one of the proposals that we put forward, which was a sliding model, lowering that to maybe 50/50 or 60/40, something - I'm just wondering, has there been any discussion in the department on the 70/30 split?

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, thank you to my colleague for bringing up the poverty reduction working group. There's no question that the challenges of tackling poverty are vast, they're multi-departmental, they're societal, and my honourable colleague mentioned that other provinces and countries have embarked on this very same task. It's not

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easy to try to grasp the complexity of the issue of poverty. We, in Canada, don't even have a clear definition for where the poverty line exists and so you can ask anyone their definition of poverty and you get a different result. So that's a huge challenge to even start with. We all know what it means to us in our communities, what it means to us in our constituencies, what it means to us every day, and so trying to pull all of that together isn't an easy task.

I commend the poverty working group for the great work that they've been doing. We had consultation and now the group is working hard. We had over 1,300 responses from Nova Scotians, very valuable pieces of information on how we might best tackle poverty. Some of them were very simple, direct, straight to the point; others were more complex and broader. They talked about some of those broader scope, philosophical ideas that we all know are more challenging than actually doing something tangible, but they're very important because they go directly to the issue of breaking down cycles, breaking down barriers, et cetera.

So I want to applaud, for the record, as I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to do over the next number of hours, I want to applaud the tremendous work of that working group and I do want to address the issue of the makeup of that group. We all know how challenging it is to put a group of individuals together and have them complete a task. There's no magic recipe. We took a broad cross-section of advocacy groups, of associations, government departments, and we put them together to do a very serious, challenging job. We did not intentionally leave anyone out. We truly felt that we had a broad spectrum. The issue of female representation on the working group was raised through a letter campaign, was raised here in the House by the member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley. Though I know the statement has been made that there isn't enough female representation, we do have a broad scope. The FemJEPP group, who represent women's groups across the province, sit on that working group and although they would never pretend to be the voice for everyone, it was their voice that we put on there, knowing that they held a broad representation of women's groups across the province.

So, again, there was no intentional leaving anyone off, we just felt it was very important for that group to get to work. So that was the reason we didn't do any additions. We felt it was important for them to get to work so we could fulfil our commitment to present to Nova Scotians those tangible ways that we would be able to put on the ground.

Now, having said that, we aren't standing still; we aren't waiting for the working group to come to us with all of the magical answers because we know that we have to work at this each and every day. We co-chair it with the Minister of Labour and Workforce Development. The increase in the minimum wage was one of those - the acceptance of those recommendations was one of the immediate ways that we looked at tackling this from the very beginning. The issue of lowering the daily parent fee for child care was another way that we could immediately tackle it, and raising the income eligibility for subsidy was another immediate way that we could tackle it.

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So some of those ways that we were able to immediately get at of the broader issue of poverty, those were the immediate tangible ways, and we will continue to do that right up until receiving the report, and then we will look at how do we now take these great recommendations that we are know are coming, how do we actually get those to fall into place with the initiatives that we are doing currently?

Mr. Chairman, I have to admit, I leaned into George and I said I don't know what the 70/30 split is, so I am going to have to ask my colleague to explain to me, which exactly, what concept he was referring to with the 70/30 split.

MR. ZINCK: Mr. Chairman, as I stated, this was one of the recommendations that initially came out of the first poverty forum. The 70/30 split is if I am receiving . . .

MS. STREATCH: The clawback?

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. ZINCK: The clawback. Okay, the clawback - and just for clarification for those who may be listening at home to our interesting conversation, when I'm receiving assistance and I seek employment, I have to then go and claim that on my income statements, up to the full amount, and there is, up to a certain amount, I believe it may still be $150, the department claws back 70 per cent and allows that individual 30 per cent. The reason I bring this is up is, like I said, it was one of the initial recommendations from the poverty forum. The second year, when we heard back from individuals, they said that this was an important one because, again, it was an incentive for an individual who was taking on a job, and if we could get it where an individual was making at least a little bit more than minimum wage at the time it would be a good incentive for them to get off the system. So I am wondering if that was looked at, the 70/30 clawback.

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, I assumed that it was the clawback, but I wanted confirmation just to make sure I didn't get up and speak to something that wasn't being asked of me.

So, yes, we do recognize that that was raised by the Standing Committee on Community Services through their poverty forum that they held. We, of course, indicated at the time that we do offer certain other incentives - the income tax refund is certainly one of those opportunities where folks are permitted to retain those dollars; the Harvest Connection was another way to try to get those extra dollars into the hands of the clients; the increase in the subsidized child care, the portable subsidies with the child care seats - and, of course, the whole issue of the poverty reduction working group, I would be surprised if this wasn't part of their recommendation. So as we move forward with those recommendations, we will challenge the department to look at how best we consider all of those recommendations, and

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I'm expecting to see that one as part of a recommendation and so we will be looking forward to dealing with it at that point.

MR. ZINCK: Mr. Chairman, I was going to continue with the Career Seek program, but we're short on time so I'll save that one.

You made mention in your opening address about family resource centres - absolutely beneficial to all of our communities that have the opportunity to have them. I have over the last year had some concerns with both the Bayers/Westwood Family Support Services and the Dartmouth Family Resource Centre in and around the executive director positions. In particular, Dartmouth North experienced several staff turnovers. An executive director had come in from the U.S. There were a lot of difficulties, personality conflicts, and a lot of staff were eliminated or chose to move on. Actually there were some human rights cases cited as well - one I probably should have come to the department with earlier.

Both Bayers/Westwood and Dartmouth Family Resource Centre are important pieces to those communities. One of the things that came out of the discussions with some of the parents, however, was the fact that over the years - and I know the department only funds so much and there are other funding partners like the United Way, but one of the things that families have said to me in Dartmouth North is that there has been a lack of professional services given to parents now than there was several years ago when the Dartmouth Family Resource Centre opened up. So I'm wondering, and these are important pieces, it's not just the parenting courses but the psychologists, those individuals who would come in and maybe see some clients, that opportunity is no longer there at the Dartmouth Family Resource Centre.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. There's too much noise in the Chamber. If we could just lower the decibel level, that would be great. Thank you.

MR. ZINCK: So that's an issue because again we're dealing with young families who are feeling the challenges. To have those services in place I think is important because they do deal with a variety of new mothers or parents who have had their children taken away. So those professional services being in those centres are important, and so I'm wondering if you could just speak to that, as to whether there has been a decline because of funding from the department.

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, again, I know my honourable colleague shares my appreciation for the family resource centres - they truly are wonderful. I have had the opportunity to visit many of them across the province and it never ceases to amaze me what they can do. They can stretch a dollar better than any other group that I have encountered, it's amazing. They take the dollars that they get and they create programs for families and for children, for youth, it's tremendous what they do and that's both urban and rural. Certainly I was pleased that staff had met with the new executive director of the Dartmouth North

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Family Resource Centre just three or four days ago and I know that things are going much better there. When we talk again, I would be happy to talk about the core funding that we've put in place for family resource centres.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth North on an introduction.

MR. ZINCK: Mr. Chairman, I want to draw the members' attention to the west gallery. We have a special guest in the west gallery today, Mr. Brad Pye, the son of former MLA Jerry Pye. Brad was born and raised in Dartmouth and now works in the Middle East. (Interruption) I hear the groans of the member for Timberlea-Prospect on having another Pye in the House.

Brad was born in Dartmouth North and works in the Middle East for the National Democratic Institute of Internal Affairs. He's working in the field of democratic development. Brad spent two years in Iraq and now is working in the challenging political arena of the Palestinian territories.

I'm pleased to inform the House that Brad is also the nominated candidate for the NDP in the Dartmouth-Cole Harbour riding. I would like to have Brad rise and I ask all members in the House to please give him a warm welcome. (Applause)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I welcome all our guests today.

The honourable member for Richmond.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Merçi, puis peut-être je pourrais même posé des questions à la ministre en français. Je pense que ça serait très intéressant pour les deux fonctionnaires qui t'assiste aujourd'hui de voir s'ils peuvent vous donné de la vie sur les questions posé en français. Madam Minister, we could have some fun and do it completely in French, but I was commenting it would be interesting to see whether your two staff would be of (Interruption)

Madam Minister, as I'm sure you're well aware, Community Services is a department that affects all of our ridings and there are some particular issues I wanted to raise with you on behalf of the many clients that you have in Richmond County.

One of the first I wanted to raise is that a couple of years ago your predecessor, who is now the honourable Minister of Natural Resources, I raised with him the issue of the mileage rates being paid to clients of Community Services, especially for those attending medical trips. In Richmond County, it's not uncommon that people will have to travel either to Sydney, Antigonish and, many times, up to Halifax.

At the time I brought those concerns to the minister, I believe the price of gas was in the range of 90 cents to $1. I'm pleased the minister did respond by implementing an increase

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in the mileage rates back then, and there also was an increase in the amount paid for a round trip for these medical appointments. In preparing for these estimates, I was trying to reflect on when that last increase would have been, and it struck me that you've been the Minister of Community Services since 2006, so obviously it had to be before then, so it's approximately two years since we've last had an increase in mileage rates.

As I mentioned to you, when I was pushing for that increase, the price of gas was around 90 cents to $1, but we all know it's over $1.30 today. It's becoming a significant problem for clients in my area because the price has gone up and their reimbursement rate has not reflected the increased costs of fuel. I'm curious as to what comments the minister can provide on what her intentions are in light of the high price of gas, in light of when the last increase was made, whether there are any intentions to increase the mileage rate and increase the rate for a return trip for medical appointments.

MS. STREATCH: Oui ça va être mon plaisir de continuer cette conversation en français mais je ne pense pas que des autres dans cette chambre vont être aussi content avec ça. So, Mr. Chairman, I will not provide my answers in French, even though it would provide me great pleasure because it's been a while since I've been able to use my French. That wouldn't be fair to the other members in the House and I'm sure Mr. Chairman would have a problem with me doing that.

But I welcome my honourable colleague from Richmond County to the discussion this morning. I know that he and I have had many opportunities to discuss some of the challenges, particularly with some of the seniors' programs that we have in place through the department, some of the programs, services for persons with disabilities, so I'm looking forward to some of that interaction this morning with him as well.

Specifically, when it comes to the challenges with the mileage rates, I will let the member know that we did this year, in the budget, increase the mileage rates for foster families as an acknowledgment that we knew the challenges were there, and so that I will offer to him as a concrete example that we do know that challenge is very real. So we did that for the foster families this year and we were pleased to be able to do that.

The income assistance rates, of course, we have increased those for the last five consecutive years. This year's increase will represent a 15.6 per cent increase - I know that while that's a significant increase, it doesn't address the specific issue of the mileage rates, as my honourable colleague has raised, but I make that point for clarity.

We know the transportation costs are greater for clients who would be in those more remote rural communities, and while we do provide a transportation allowance and we do provide dollars for those medical trips back and forth, currently there is no increase proposal, but it would be something I would be more than happy to take back to the department as a recommendation.

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MR. SAMSON: I'm going to give you an example of where this really hits home. I have a family, a husband and wife, and the wife has kidney disease. She's required to be on dialysis three days a week. They are currently travelling from Petit-de-Grat down to Sydney, on the old Highway No. 4, three days a week. The wear and tear on their vehicle, plus the cost of fuel, is such that they just can't make ends meet anymore. I know that your staff down in St. Peter's have done everything possible that they can and it's certainly not a criticism of them. I commend them for everything they have been able to do to assist this family, but at the end of the day it's almost impossible to be able to make ends meet when the mileage rate has not increased.

Maybe it's not a question of increasing the mileage rate overall, it may be a question of whether the department can look at, when it comes to medical travel, having a reimbursement that is more reflective of the cost involved. As the minister indicated, I do represent a rural, remote area. Unfortunately, a drive down to Sydney is about an hour and a half and to drive up to Antigonish isn't much shorter. Not many areas find themselves with that much travelling distance but I do. Unfortunately, with dialysis, it is not a luxury. It's a life and death matter and it is a necessity of life. So I'm wondering, in light of that, when I give her that example, would the minister be prepared and, if it is not an across-the-board change, would she at least be prepared to look at the unique situation we do have in Richmond County and review the current rates that are being paid for travel, especially for medical appointments for clients in Richmond?

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, again, I thank my honourable colleague for the opportunity to discuss this. I do want to thank him for the kind words about the staff because I will tell you, the staff are extremely creative. Some of the creative ways that I have heard that they've been able to help Nova Scotians, within the boundaries of the policies and the procedures, are nothing short of miracles and I know they do try very hard. That specific example that my honourable colleague presented is very real. It's not enough for me to stand and quote figures and facts when situations like that are presented, because those are very real, very life and death situations, as my honourable colleague has mentioned.

The $39 million that we budget for special needs is a figure when you compare it to the story of the family. I do offer that figure, though, as a representation of the commitment that we have to the special needs division of the income assistance program, but I do know that program division is reviewing this exact discussion as we speak. They are looking at the transportation costs, they are looking at the medical issue, so we look forward to those recommendations coming forward and we will certainly make sure that this specific example is referenced in that review.

[10:45 a.m.]

MR. SAMSON: Madam Minister, I am pleased to hear that. Again, it may not be a question of having to do a change throughout the entire province. You have a unique

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situation which I believe requires a unique solution. Right now, the staff in St. Peter's are working within the guidelines that are provided to them. There are some allotments for special circumstances, I realize that. I believe this may be a circumstance that would fall under these special circumstances, but it requires a change, in Halifax, to let the field offices know that they do have the authority in these circumstances. It might even be a matter of the minister having a discussion with her colleague, the Minister of Health, especially when it comes to dialysis.

Right now, I'm working with the Minister of Health to try to bring dialysis services closer to Richmond County, which will basically address this very concern. Until that happens - and to be able to do that, to bring those dialysis services to the Strait Richmond Hospital, which would be a benefit for my constituents, the Premier's constituents, even some of the constituents of the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, and possibly even the Minister of Economic Development - to have that dialysis service provided at the Strait Richmond Hospital, that's a $2 million investment. So I am aware that's going to take some time, but these families need some relief during that period; right now, they just can't make ends meet.

One of the options that one family turned to is saying, we have no means of transportation, they called in the ambulance. So our EHS is being used to transport patients for dialysis services and we all know what the cost of that is to government, so that's certainly not cost-effective. That's not a message we want to be sending out to families with dialysis, that EHS is an option, because it's not what EHS is meant to do. But who can afford to continually travel three times a week, from Petit-de-Grat, or from anywhere in Richmond County, down to Sydney for dialysis services, with the price of gas the way it is, the price of insurance, and the wear and tear on the vehicle?

The clients of Community Services are calling me and saying, we just can't do it anymore and what solutions do you have, and I don't have any solutions. I commend them for the fact that they're even able to make this kind of commitment, because for the most part, whoever the individual is receiving dialysis services, it's not the person who is driving. They need someone else to drive them. So it takes someone else to be able to go there with them three times a week, to drive, to sit there while they are taking their dialysis and to bring them back home. It's a tremendous commitment, but financially it's to the point where they just can't make ends meet anymore.

I'm hoping that the minister will take that into consideration and will hopefully be able to identify some funds which could be used toward the special circumstances, especially with dialysis. I'm sure the Minister of Health can provide you with the figures. There's not an overabundance of families, fortunately, but for those who are and if they happen to be clients of Community Services, they need help.

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I know, again, that the staff in St. Peter's have found all the creative ways that they possibly could to help but there's a limit. They're aware that there's a limit as well and the only person who can change that limit is yourself. So I do hope the minister will look into that.

One of the other issues that I wanted to raise with the minister is the issue of seniors' housing complexes. I know that the minister has been announcing elevators for a number of the areas around the province. Now, in Richmond County we have a number of seniors' complexes - about half are single-storey units and the other half are two-storey units. For those who are on the second level, there are great concerns about being able to carry groceries, and other items, up and down the stairs, or even as their health may start to fail, for themselves being able to climb up those stairs.

Our seniors' complexes are an important part of keeping our seniors in our communities, providing them with a safe form of housing, but accessing that second storey is becoming a bigger and bigger issue as seniors get up in age. So in light of the fact that the minister has been making some announcements of elevators throughout the province, I'm wondering if this budget is going to provide for, once again, a series of elevators to be put in seniors' complexes throughout Nova Scotia.

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, I thank my honourable colleague. Just to go back to the issue that he had before he brought up the elevator, I totally agree that the co-operation amongst departments is key and the issue that my honourable colleague brought today about the Department of Health and the Department of Community Services talking, to make sure that in those very unique cases, as the one that my honourable colleague brought forward, it only makes sense - and heaven forbid that we not use a little common sense every once in a while, but that would only make sense.

I will specifically take the issue of those unique cases and, as the honourable member said as well, thankfully there aren't that many of those unique cases, but there would be enough that it would pose real challenges to those families. So I will take those unique cases and with the Minister of Health, along with this review that's going on right now, look at creative ways, just as my honourable colleague suggested - because you're absolutely right. It doesn't make sense to be using the ambulances as transportation links, which is not the intention, if we can do something else more creative.

It's not always about saving those dollars but in this case, it would accomplish both; it would provide that lifesaving treatment for those families and it would also be much better for the finances of the province than to have the ambulances providing that service. So we will look at that.

The issue of elevators - it never ceases to amaze me how challenging the elevator issue is. I want to make a couple of comments before I get into the specific reply about

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elevators and the go forward: 86 per cent of our units will be accessible after April 2008, of this year - by the Fall of 2008, 86 per cent of available senior citizens' housing in Nova Scotia will be fully accessible. So that's a really great figure. It's the other per cent that aren't that is the challenge my colleague is bringing up today, so I recognize that.

We do try to be creative, we do try to provide that first-floor level of accommodation versus having someone not being able to be mobile, so we do offer that as an option. Certainly we have a team, under the leadership of Gary Porter right now, working on a province-wide strategy for the implementation and the building of the remaining elevators that would see our seniors' complexes fully accessible. I know that he and his team are working very hard to put together a plan that deals with regional - making sure that we have housing, adequate housing in the different regions that are accessible, ensuring that we do so to the best of our financial ability.

It was absolutely shocking to me when we put out the tenders for that first round of elevators, the 15 elevators that we put the tenders out for and we estimated, we budgeted approximately $155,000 per elevator. The tenders were coming in at over $300,000, it was absolutely staggering. So we've had to take a long, hard look at how we can best use the resources we've got, while not reneging on any of those commitments we made. I wanted to make that notification for my honourable colleague as well, so he would recognize the challenges we have with that steel industry and the elevator accessibility issue.

Again, yes, Gary Porter is working on a province-wide strategy. I have taken this specific request that my colleague presented to me in the House to Gary and to staff, to include in that province-wide strategy, to ensure that all of the requests are dealt with, Mr. Chairman.

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm just going to make one final point and then my colleague, the member for Dartmouth North, is going to take over for a few minutes, while I have to step out. I will be back. That 86 per cent figure is a great figure but I know when I'm going to repeat that figure back in Richmond County, they're going to say, well, what are the chances that only 14 per cent of the province is not accessible and we have, to my calculation, one, two, three, four, five, six seniors' complexes in Richmond County that are not accessible?

So that is a challenge for us and I hope the minister will take it into consideration because we have our seniors' complex in Petit-de-Grat, we have the one in D'Escousse, we have two in St. Peter's, we have one in River Bourgeois and one in L'Ardoise that are all two-storey facilities. That's where the challenges lie and, as I said, none of our seniors' complexes in Richmond County have an elevator as it is. So in light of those figures, I'm certainly hoping that the minister will have some good news for the people of Richmond County, as she's putting together her lists of which communities will be seeing some of these elevators this year. It's hard to choose which ones should receive it but one has to start

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somewhere. I'm certainly hoping the minister will take that into consideration. She may have some comments she wishes to provide on that, but I'll leave it at that for now and hear her response and then give the floor to my colleague, the member for Dartmouth North.

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, again, I thank my honourable colleague. I did not use the figure of 86 per cent to pretend that I don't realize that means a handful, and I know my honourable colleague knows that. There are still 125 seniors' complexes across the province that are part of that remaining per cent. So I certainly wasn't being flippant in that and I know he recognizes that.

I wish it were as easy as four or five , but we have made great gains and we are very pleased with the gains that we've made. As I mentioned, part of Gary Porter's province-wide strategy deals with regional concerns. We need to make sure that we have adequate regional - depending on where the seniors' complex is in that region, is there another one next door that folks could move to, or is there another option available close by? So that regional concern, that regional component is part of that review. So we will look forward to seeing that review and seeing the provincial layout and we will continue to invest each and every year, within the budget of course, in that accessibility component for our seniors in the province. I will certainly make sure that the good folks of Richmond County are included in that review.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Preston.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, I just have a few questions for the minister. The first one I want to ask is on a housing grant, which is always a very important thing for low-income Nova Scotians. It's an excellent program that the department operates. The income threshold on that, I believe, is $32,000 now. Is that correct?

MS. STREATCH: It varies.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, it varies. Also, with that, normally when we assist people filling out the applications for that, they use the income tax summary to verify income. Now, an income summary typically, the child tax credit isn't shown as income on your income tax normally. I understand that the Department of Housing uses the child tax credit as income and, indeed, in many cases it puts the individuals over the limit for income and, in other words, eliminates the possibility of getting a grant. I don't think that's appropriate because, typically, if you have a couple of children and you're struggling every day and today with an income of $25,000 or $30,000 a year, it's pretty tough to make ends meet and then if you take that and need some repairs on your home, I would just like the minister to verify that.

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, I welcome my honourable colleague to the discussion. The whole issue of household income limits for the housing programs is one that we discuss routinely in Question Period and in estimates debates. We do have categories, as my honourable colleague mentioned. There are different categories for different levels of

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programs that are available. It depends on your region, where your live, the rural versus the urban, the number of people or the number of bedrooms, as we would call it, so those income levels do vary. My honourable colleague is well aware that we work those household income levels in conjunction with the federal government, and it's under the jurisdiction of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation that those are set. So the inclusion of the child tax benefit is a requirement of the federal government, through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and so the honourable member is correct, it is included as income.

MR. COLWELL: I also understand that these agreements are put in place through negotiation between the province and the federal government. Has there been any effort on behalf of the province understanding what our situation is, particularly in rural areas, to have that child tax credit eliminated as income in the whole process of the grants? So really my question is, has the province done anything to try to change that situation so indeed that income wouldn't be shown? It's particularly important for a single mother or a single father who is struggling to try to look after their home and their family. I'm just wondering if the province has entered into any type of negotiation to see if that can be eliminated.

[11:00 a.m.]

MS. STREATCH: Yes, to my honourable colleague, the programs that we have, the household income levels that are set with the federal government, we set those in conjunction with the federal government. For simplicity, we use the same program, so we don't deviate and separate ours and make it different. It is for simplicity, it is for the accountability and the ease with the programs. So they are included, those income levels do reflect the child tax benefit.

I did want to point out, though, for my honourable colleague, that though it isn't the answer to his specific question, we don't claw back that child tax benefit. We don't consider it as part of the child care subsidy issue so we do recognize that there are advantages, there are times when we need to discount that and we do try to do that, Mr. Chairman.

MR. COLWELL: I appreciate that, because to raise a family today, as the honourable member knows, is very, very expensive.

My real question is has there been any negotiation on behalf of the province to try and eliminate this for the housing grants, because those agreements are signed between the province and the federal government with CMHC every year. From what I understand, there's a possibility of negotiating different things in and out and I can understand why the department makes it seamless, with the same requirements federally and provincially, it does make a lot of sense, but if we could negotiate it differently so those could be removed, it would help a lot more people in Nova Scotia.

[Page 396]

MS. STREATCH: Specifically, we do meet regularly with the federal government in negotiations regarding these income levels. It is not something, today, that the federal government is considering, because it would require a cross-country change for them. I will certainly indicate to my honourable colleague across the way that, at the next meeting with CMHC, we as a province are prepared to raise that issue.

MR. COLWELL: I'm very pleased to hear that, because I think it would make a big difference to a lot of Nova Scotians who are in need of having badly needed home repairs done.

Again, on the grants, and I know some of this is a federal and provincial agreement so it takes a long time to change, but has the has the government considered increasing - particularly in the case of seniors, as we have many seniors in the province living well below the poverty level, trying to stay in their homes, and rightfully so, they should as long as they possibly can - the grant program to the seniors and make it better, instead of just emergency grants, maybe help with more energy efficiency in their homes? Seniors are faced with huge oil bills now. Typically the homes aren't well insulated, their windows need replacing and I know the department does some of that when they do cause problems with the buildings, but put more emphasis on more energy efficiency.

To fill an oil tank now, from what I understand - luckily I don't have one, I have electric heat so I don't know if I'm lucky or not - it costs somewhere between $1,000 and $1,200 to fill an empty oil tank now. If you have a senior who's making $9,000 or $10,000 a year, you can see that very quickly they can't heat their homes. Something could be done to help them renovate their properties to make them more efficient. I stress, particularly for seniors, is there any movement in that direction, any consideration in the department for improving the homes and energy conservation?

I know there are some programs through the province, now in the federal government, but they really don't help the seniors, because you have to spend a pile of money to get a little bit of money back. They don't have the money to start and if they do get a grant back through the program that's run now, it's just not affordable for seniors - we really need to do something that's direct and immediate for them.

MS. STREATCH: Again, to my honourable colleague across the way. The issue of home repairs and grants, loans, is one that is becoming increasingly more challenging with our aging population. Of course, we all know - I've made the statement in this House and I know everyone would be in agreement with this - more and more, we have seniors who are choosing to stay in their own homes, who truly want to be in their own homes. When seniors want to stay in their own homes, I think it's incumbent upon us to be able to offer the programming that allows them to do just that.

[Page 397]

I know it's a challenge to work within the confines of the programs that we offer throughout the department, but we do put substantial dollars on the table and we do attempt to assist as many Nova Scotians as we can. The almost $17.7 million for the programming going out this year is a numeric figure we could use, but I want to talk about the couple of programs that we did that, I think, go directly to the member's question.

Just recently, the Minister of Energy, through Energy and Conserve Nova Scotia partnered with Community Services to do exactly what the member was referencing. We took a program where we used low-income homes. They got the information from us through our folks in the field and they were able to go in and provide those energy efficient upgrades, just as the member has suggested. So that's something that I'm going to encourage Conserve Nova Scotia to do on a regular basis, because it isn't all about providing an energy rebate, as the Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations will hopefully be doing very soon. It isn't just that - we have to do the preventative piece as well, and so those energy efficient upgrades are extremely important.

So I'll be looking to the Minister of Energy to continue that program, perhaps even broaden it if we could, as we were able to do with the Department of Health - the Department of Health was able to partner with us through the infusion of $4 million last year, and another $3.5 million this year, for those home repair programs for the seniors. So we will continue to look at creative ways to do the energy efficiency upgrades and to provide the option for those seniors who choose to stay in their home - and, as we like to refer to it, age in place as they see fit.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I appreciate that, and anything we can do to help seniors stay in their homes I think is a cost-saving measure, to start with, for the province. If you look at about $150 a day, and I'm just guessing what a nursing home costs today, but $150 a day, that's about $450,000 a year to keep one person in one bed. For about $20,000 a year you could probably keep that person at home in some cases. In some cases you can't because the individuals need that level of care, but if you keep that person home, in an energy efficient safe home that they could live out their lives with and be very happy, actually happier living at home and everybody, of course, is happier living at home.

So if you do the math on it, it wouldn't take very many upgrades in homes to really take a lot of stress off the real critical shortage in nursing home beds that we have today, and take stress off the hospitals that are actually putting people up temporarily. Now, some of those people would have to be in that situation, but some don't need to be in that situation. Take that stress off and it would relieve the health care system so we can get more people through the health care system faster and ultimately, overall, reduce costs. So it just seems to be a no-brainer to do the whole thing.

So if you just run the numbers, and I don't know if anyone has really run the numbers to see how many people you could do - you could do a program in their home to keep them

[Page 398]

in their house, even for one year, just one year. It's getting close to $0.5 million a year to go into a nursing home, and if you make a small investment in someone's home, maybe it's - I know we do accessibility and those are very good ones as well, but whatever is needed in that home to keep that senior there healthy and safe, and economically so they can stay there, it wouldn't take many of those diversions really to start clearing up the backlog. We talk about building more and more nursing homes, which are needed, but we also have got to go at it in different ways. So has the government done anything towards looking at this, and really run the numbers on this to see what's going on, because that's really what should be done.

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, you know, I made the comment earlier today that sometimes those most common-sense solutions to things are the ones that tend to go past us, but my honourable colleague brings a very common-sense approach. Indeed, the government has looked at those very similar issues and those very same issues - the In-home Support Program that we have in the Department of Health. I know the creative ways that we've looked, in the Department of Community Services, for delivering some of the persons with disabilities programs that we have, recognizing that when you provide assistance to individuals, meeting their needs, you relieve pressures on other places in the system and that only naturally makes sense. The more we can do that, providing the quality care for Nova Scotians and at the same time relieving some of those pressures in the systems, the better off I think we all can be.

So as part of the Continuing Care Strategy through the Department of Health and the coordinated effort that we have with Health and the other social departments, I concur that the more agreement we can have to better put the dollars in place for those programs like we mentioned, the repair program, the accessibility program - and we did increase those grants from $3,000 to $5,000 and we increased the household income limits for those, because we recognized that if we could allow those folks to stay, those Nova Scotians to stay in their homes longer by providing those grants to make those upgrades to make their homes accessible, that saved on the other end, and that prevented that push in the system for those nursing home beds and for those services.

So we were able to increase those grants and we were able to increase those income levels. Another key component to that was bringing the doctors, bringing the medical professionals in on it and saying that before someone actually becomes reliant on a wheelchair, for example, or reliant on a piece of equipment that would require their home to have those repairs, in advance of that if the doctors knew that was imminent and they knew that was going to happen, then we would flow the dollars to those Nova Scotians so they could have those repairs made in anticipation of that happening. So again, it's that type of response and that type of adaptation to the programs that I think is incumbent upon all of us, and we will certainly continue to do that.

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MR. COLWELL: I appreciate the minister's approach to this and I do truly appreciate what the department does to help seniors and other low-income Nova Scotians in this province. We can never do enough in that regard. It's always a struggle between budgets, realistic budgets and the need. The trouble is, as our population gets older, there is going to be more and more need and probably not as much money to satisfy the need.

But you didn't answer my question. My question was specifically: Has government done a cost analysis on the basis of looking at what it costs to keep someone in a home, in their own home, or what it costs in a nursing home and how many of those placements could be avoided by a small improvement in the home, or accessibility, or it may be two or three different things? As far as the In-Home Support Program goes, quite frankly it doesn't work well - it does not work well. The government says there are not enough workers, and when you check with the companies that supply them they say we don't have enough money to hire the workers.

When you get someone who really needs a lot of care and they get one hour a day, five days a week, it's no help, because the people just can't survive with that. In some of those circumstances, they need a lot more help - not twenty-four hours a day help, but more help than that. I realize it's a scheduling problem, it's a resource problem and a lot of problems, but has there been a cost analysis done by the province to see if there's a way that the dollars can be better utilized and, indeed, stop the construction of some of the nursing homes - or hopefully it will reduce the number, clear up the backlog in the hospitals somewhat by keeping people in their own homes and adding better support there. It doesn't appear that that has happened.

[11:15 a.m.]

MS. STREATCH: Mr. Chairman, specifically to the question, while I wouldn't speak for another minister, that wouldn't be fair, I can say that the $3.5 million that is transferring this year to us, and the $4 million that was transferred last year to us, would lead me to believe that the Department of Health has done just that - they've looked at ways where they can put dollars in place that would do exactly what we've been discussing here and keep some of that backlog away from the wait list for the nursing homes. So while I can't say specifically yes or no that the Department of Health would have done that, it would be my expectation, and it would make sense to me that that would have happened and that is how they would have determined that they could have transferred dollars to us.

I know that directly to the question of collaboration and discussion and communication, as I mentioned earlier, we do have that discussion and communication with the Department of Health in other areas to ensure that the whole idea of that collaborative approach is taken. So we do it in other areas, we will encourage it to be done in the home adaptation and home repair program area as well, but it woul