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HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, MAY 7, 2008
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY
4:34 P.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Wayne Gaudet
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Committee of the Whole House on Supply will now be called to order.
The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.
MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, would you please call the estimates of the Department of Education.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will continue with the estimates of the Department of Education.
The honourable member for Halifax Citadel.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, I welcome the minister back for a second round in the hot seat. I will confine my remarks today largely to post-secondary education, but before I do, I would like to thank the minister for her help and co-operation in the past year since we last had this. I know that any time I've contacted her department, especially her deputy and Kevin Chapman in particular, I've found the help to be very efficient and thoughtful and prompt, and I appreciate that. I've heard that from students as well, so I appreciate the minister's help and the help of her staff over the past year. I also know she's going through some difficult times at the moment and I admire her fortitude in persevering here, and I wish her and her family all good things in the coming days.
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I want to begin with a brief statement on post-secondary education. These are challenging times for post-secondary education, as the minister knows, times of great opportunity as well. We happen to be living in a knowledge economy where productivity and innovation are at a premium, where post-secondary education is considered an essential need. It just so happens that in this time, when education is so highly sought after and so highly regarded, that we have the successful industry here in Nova Scotia that leads the world in many ways. So we have the successful industry in a time that puts a premium on post-secondary education.
Apart from the billions of dollars that post-secondary education brings to our economy, it has other socio-economic benefits in terms of addressing equality issues, questions of access and questions of opportunity. So we have this great, valuable resource, really, in fact, apart from our institution, the most valuable resource we have is our people, the people who teach, the staff, the students at our universities who have helped create this billion dollar industry for us here in Nova Scotia.
At the same time, this industry is being challenged. We have problems, challenges of declining access as post-secondary education becomes more important. We have a decline in skilled workers as people leave the province or as the demand for skilled workers increases. We have a decline in enrolment because of the demographic challenge and because of out-migration. We have a problem in the challenge of an aging population, sometimes even an opportunity for post-secondary education. We have the possibility on the horizon of changes in the equalization formula. We have competition from out-of-province universities and foreign universities. We have an aging infrastructure.
So we have this great opportunity, Mr. Chairman, but we also have these great challenges. I know that the Alliance of Nova Scotia Student Associations, in particular, have been calling for a comprehensive review of post-secondary education and perhaps the time is right, given these challenges and given these opportunities, for us to review post-secondary education.
I wanted to say something in general about the principles that might guide this comprehensive review, Mr. Chairman, in large part because I think it will set the frame, our questions here today from the Official Opposition, our comments and our general approach to post-secondary education. These, I think, are the principles that ought to guide post-secondary education and the determination of making decisions and allocations relating to post-secondary education.
I start with accessibility, Mr. Chairman. Accessibility to us means that every qualified student, every student who is qualified and has a desire to study at our universities and colleges, that those students will not be prevented, especially those who need it, from going to universities or colleges for financial reasons. I know the minister shares these objectives, but I want to make it clear that it's one of the things that drives our approach to post-
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secondary education and funding - that access is important, especially given what we said earlier about the need for an education in this knowledge-based economy.
It has to be comprehensive that we have to have a full range of institutions that are available at universities, colleges, career colleges and other avenues for teaching and learning. There has to be a better integration of colleges and universities at our post-secondary institutions so that there is a little bit more movement, that we can reduce barriers to students who are trying to move between colleges and universities. We also have to have freedom of movement within the country, there should be non-discrimination against out-of-province students in their eligibility for bursaries and tax credits.
We believe that there should be stability of funding and predictability in granting of monies to universities and institutions, and that there should be fairness in the funding programs between undergraduate universities and graduate universities and programs; there should be accountability and transparency - we should know where the money is coming from and where it's going; and there should be flexibility and innovation in our post-secondary, so they can respond immediately to challenges and opportunities as they come up.
So if we are to have a comprehensive review of post-secondary education we would like to see these principles used as guiding principles in the determination of decisions and the allocation of funding relating to post-secondary education. We do need a comprehensive review of post-secondary education at some time.
I should start, if I may, by just referring to the minister when she introduced the student leaders from the Alliance of Nova Scotia Student Associations. I took note of the fact that she said these students have worked with her, and they have worked with me as well, and they will continue to work with us on a comprehensive review of post-secondary education. I wonder, was that just a spur-of-the-moment introduction or is the minister really signalling that there will be a comprehensive review of post-secondary education, that she is contemplating a review of post-secondary education? So maybe I'll just start off with that question.
HON. KAREN CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, thank you for leading us into discussion, debate and questions on post-secondary education. I would just like to begin perhaps by responding to your question with respect to students and a composite post-secondary education review. The comment that I made was made, I believe, on the day that the students made their announcement about their "plan or perish", I think was the language they used, but I want to go back to my involvement with the students from both student unions. I believe that has been a positive relationship and I believe that has translated into me and my department and this government listening to the students, and by listening to them that has translated into some benefits that students will enjoy, have started to enjoy, and will continue to enjoy. So I speak very favourably and very fondly about the student members in both student unions.
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When we were talking two years ago with students - I remember meeting them and having lunch with them - one of the things then at that time that was of concern to them had to do with student assistance. So it was at that time that we agreed we needed to look at the way we provide assistance and support to university students, and thus we did our internal review of the different programs that we have for students and, also, that translated into the review that took place across the province. So the students were very much instrumental in working with me to make sure that review took place, and they gave me some credit in that we would listen at the department to the responses that were heard around the province and respond accordingly, which we did.
So when they came back and talked about how pleased they were with the results of that, and then where we go from here, they talked about that overall comprehensive review of post-secondary education across the province, going beyond just the one component of student assistance, but a comprehensive review. They held their press conference and my comments were made at that time that we supported a comprehensive review and would be working with the students as that review unfolded. I believe their timeline was to look at something in the Fall of 2008, so we'll be back at the table with them to talk about when and how that review unfolds.
[4:45 p.m.]
It's certainly a review that I believe is long overdue. In fact, two years ago, when I was first in the portfolio and talking about universities, I made the comment - the media described it as provocative musings, but it simply was a question - do we have too many universities? I didn't have the answer, but I posed the question. That statement, I think, was a good beginning because as a result of that, I initiated meetings with presidents of the universities on an individual basis, they came into my office and I asked them to focus on three things: one was the history of their university and that was for my information; another was challenges they saw in their university, at this point in time; and the third was possible solutions.
We had some very healthy, informal discussions about where we are as a province, where they are as a university and where we go from here. So it's quite appropriate that we would formalize that review and that's what I believe the students are wanting, starting in the Fall, and that's something that, as the minister, I'll be prepared to work with them on that review.
MR. PREYRA: Well, I thank the minister for her response, but just to be clear, to know what we've just heard, is the minister saying that she is willing to embark on a comprehensive review and will start with the question she asked earlier about whether or not there were too many universities in Nova Scotia? Because I don't recall that being part of the terms of reference that the students had set out and I think the principles that I outlined here earlier really relate to what the Alliance of Nova Scotia Student Associations was saying.
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The Canadian Federation of Students, as well, were endorsing that and talking about the many principles, so just to be clear, is the minister saying she is ready to embark on a review of whether there are too many universities in Nova Scotia?
MS. CASEY: I guess, to be clear, the number of universities is one small part of a comprehensive review. I expect, when the terms of reference are communicated and when we begin the process, that will be one of many things that's under review and that's discussed and needs to be looked at, but as I said, it's one of many.
MR. PREYRA: I want to go through some of the items identified in the budget relating to post-secondary education, mostly by way of getting some clarification. I want to start with the freeze on tuition. As you know, we, on this side of the House have been calling for a freeze for a long time, really, over the objections of the government side and denial from the government side, that something like that was even possible. I'm delighted the minister has embraced this idea of a freeze as one way of addressing the challenge of access and post-secondary education.
Some of the students groups have raised a question calling for clarification and they're wondering whether or not what we're looking at here, as it's outlined in the MOU and in the budget, is really more of a rebate rather than a reduction in tuition. This is not really a freeze in tuition, or if it is, it's really a freeze for three years and there's no preparation made for beyond three years. I'm wondering whether or not the minister has any statement on whether or not it's a rebate or a reduction and what her plans are for beyond three years.
MS. CASEY: I'm glad to be able to speak to the MOU because we have just finished the third year of a three-year MOU, which certainly gave stability to the universities. Their funding was stable and predictable and that allowed them to do their planning. In the last year of that MOU, where the tuition increase was to be 3.9 per cent, we were able to freeze that so there would be no increase for the university students.
Working through the MOU proved to be a good experience, it proved to be a good document, it brought the university presidents together. We had representation from the students at the table to discuss and develop an MOU and it was an excellent process. What it did was translate into a second MOU of three years. So, with the freeze in the last year of the previous MOU and the freeze in the upcoming three years, that will give a freeze on tuition, to students in Nova Scotia, for four years, four consecutive years. The terms freezing tuition or looking at affordability of universities are terms that are kind of used loosely, I would say, because we know that the tuitions at universities are set by the board of governors and tuition depends on the program. So we did not go into universities and ask them to change their (Interruption)
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.
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MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Just for a moment, I know we've got to keep a quorum in here, and I appreciate there's some levity on occasions and I obviously participated in them on many occasions, but I would like to have the noise down a little bit so we could hear the minister's answers, if you don't mind.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I can hear the minister quite well but I understand your point.
The honourable Minister of Education has the floor.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I was speaking about the confusion between freezing tuition and making tuition more affordable. The board of governors at the universities, as the member opposite would know, are the people who set the tuition rates for their universities. So we did not go in and ask universities to change the tuition that they're charging, but what we did do was put in place an agreement that would allow university students to have access to dollars that would help them address the tuition fees that were being charged. In practice, it is reducing the amount of money that a student has to pay in order to cover the tuition costs at their universities.
MR. PREYRA: I know the minister has clarified this issue elsewhere, but when she says students in Nova Scotia, she really means students from Nova Scotia because we know that there are students who are not covered. Even though this new MOU is a little different, the previous MOU did allow tuition fees to rise and perhaps it's debatable in the department's mind but, you know, ancillary and auxiliary fees were also allowed to rise and I'll talk about that a little later.
I did have a question about the bursary trust, you know, this is another $66 million trust, and I'm wondering, why put the money in a trust and not put it in a vehicle that's more accountable, you know - and end-of-the-year money as well - that's something that this House and this Legislature can examine and hold up to a higher level of scrutiny?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, a couple of questions there, or a couple of comments I think that I should make. Number one, the 3.9 per cent was the maximum to which tuitions could have been increased in the last MOU. The money that we've put into the MOU this year freezes the tuition for the next three years. We addressed that, so there will be no increase to students for tuition.
The second thing is why the trust for the bursary and that trust is managed by the university presidents. It's arm's length from us and we believe it will allow that trust to be managed. We have confidence in the university presidents who will be managing that and we also recognize that this is, again, one way that we can say to the university students in this province that we want to try to help them make that university education more affordable. So it is arm's length, it's managed by the university presidents, and we believe it will be administered effectively.
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MR. PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, I had a question relating to the trust and out-of-province students. As I said earlier, this has been a continuing problem with the MOU and with the trust and we have the same problem presented with the initiative in the budget. Out-of-province students will not receive it, or at least will not receive it until 2010 and will really, by university expense standards, receive a pittance.
My concern is that we have this very successful industry where students come from all over the world to study here and they bring with them resources that they use for accommodation and to support themselves and for entertainment. So they bring with them an awful lot of money to our province.
We wouldn't treat any other industry that way. This is a very successful industry and yet here we are in this bursary, saying to them, we're going to treat you as second-class citizens, we're not going to welcome you here. For the little amount of money that we'll save by excluding them, I'm wondering if we'll turn off more students and force them to go to other universities.
As you know, we have a real challenge from Memorial University at the moment and McGill and Alberta. I'm wondering if this just exacerbates that problem.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I certainly would want to share the member opposite's feelings about how important it is to our Nova Scotia economy and to our universities to have students from out-of-province. We have about 31 per cent of the students in our universities who are from out-of-province. They are valued, they contribute a lot to the university life and to the community life. A survey was done in 2005 to track the students who graduated in 2003 and the graduates at that time from out-of-province, who were here in Nova Scotia, 21 per cent of them stayed in Nova Scotia. So we recognize and embrace those students.
When I was meeting with students about funding and Nova Scotia students and Nova Scotia universities and so on, I asked them the question, how did they think the funding should be allocated. There were different opinions, there were different thoughts there, Mr. Chairman. One student - I remember clearly one student from out-of-province said to me, I think you should look after Nova Scotia students first. Now, this is a student from outside the province, this is a student who knew what the tuition would be in Nova Scotia when he came here and he still made the decision to come. I think that sends a very strong message about the quality of education programming that we have here and that universities in Nova Scotia are recognized all across Canada as having high standards, top-quality education.
So I'd like to think that students are attracted here because of that. I do also, though, want them to understand that we appreciate them being here. One of the things that we have explained is that the funding that comes to this province from the federal government is on a per capita basis. So, Mr. Chairman, the funding that follows the students to Alberta,
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Ontario or wherever, stays in that province. If they choose to come to Nova Scotia to study, that money does not come with them.
Personally, I believe that's wrong. One of the things I've said to the students and have agreed to do with them is to continue to lobby the federal government for some recognition because 31 per cent of our student population is a significant number. If we had the funding that went with those 31 per cent, it would certainly be a boost to our universities. So that's a battle that I will continue and I will continue it with the students because we need to make sure that we can convince the federal government of the importance of that to the students and to this province.
Recognizing that, our government made the decision that the priority would be our Nova Scotia students, and I'm very proud to say that. However, we recognized that the gap between what our Nova Scotia students would pay and what students from outside the province would pay was one that we wanted to control as best we could. So, in the third year of our bursary, we will be giving a bursary to students from outside of the province, to maintain that gap, at a $1,000 differential. So we're trying to control that, but we're recognizing that we are investing taxpayers' dollars in Nova Scotia in students from Nova Scotia.
[5:00 p.m.]
MR. PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, just to be clear, we, too, believe that Nova Scotia students are important. We also believe that our post-secondary institutions are so important to the economy of Nova Scotia - and there are other benefits from it as well, not to mention immigration from the number of students who come from other parts of the country and from other parts of the world and end up staying here. So there are an awful lot of other benefits that come and we should recognize that - the fact that this 31 per cent of the population that comes here is also a tremendous asset and a tremendous potential for us, not just in terms of education but in terms of other socio-economic benefits.
I wanted to ask about direct lend. The move to direct lend is again something that we had called for and that we had negotiated in a previous agreement and I think it's a smart move. It reduces the interest rate for students and it essentially gives them more opportunity to borrow, I suppose. It's not something that we want to encourage but at least if they're going to borrow, it gives them better rates.
Just a question, who will be the carrier, who will be the manager for this direct lend initiative?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, direct lend is one of the many programs of assistance that we have for post-secondary students and it is one that just as recently as today I was hearing from one of the Pages, talking about how important this
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particular initiative is. We recognize that students, if they were getting their loan, it was going through the bank and they were being charged a rate higher than we thought we could provide it for them. So we contracted a company called Resolve to do the managing for that. The agreement we have is that students will pay prime plus 0.5 as a floating rate, or prime plus 3 as a fixed rate.
We also, when we made that announcement - that's effective August 1st - made the commitment that any efficiencies that are generated through that will go back into student assistance initiatives that we currently have. We are not interested in generating any revenue on the backs of the students. We are interested in providing a loan that is easier for them to repay because it has a lower interest rate, and reinvest any efficiencies, as I said, into other student assistance programs.
MR. PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, I was in Ottawa in March to talk about student loans and I had mentioned to someone there about direct lend and they said, don't go to Resolve. They said, you know, we've had a horrible time with Resolve here in Ottawa. I consulted with student groups here and they said they had the same problem. They said that this company really doesn't have a great reputation in the student loans field. I'm wondering, was this bid put out to tender, was there a review done of the qualifications, were there criteria set out before Resolve was given the contract to manage direct lend?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, there was a tender called for the management of the direct lend and the successful applicant was Resolve, well-known across Canada and reputable. We were happy to have them respond and to take on that responsibility. So it wasn't a company that wasn't well-known, a good reputation and it was the response to our tender.
MR. PREYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question about the non-repayable grant. Again, I think I would thank the minister for responding in part to our call and the call of students to establish a needs-based grants program. We aren't quite there yet.
As you know, Mr. Chairman, this program, the non-repayable loan, essentially addresses 20 per cent of the student loan, provides a rebate, in a way, of 20 per cent of the student loan, but only 40 per cent of a typical student's loan comes from the Nova Scotia program, 60 per cent of that loan is not covered. So it's a step in the right direction and it's a small step.
Perhaps it was a difference of opinion we have had over the last couple of years about what a needs-based grants program means, but to be charitable, I think what this points to is a need to reform our student loans process itself so that we look at targeted constituencies, targeted groups and targeted needs. I'm thinking here principally about students from rural Nova Scotia, students who come from single-parent families, students who come from low-income families, students whose parents have not gone to university before. There's a whole
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range of students, as the minister knows - we have talked about this over the last couple of years - where 40 per cent of our students who are qualified don't go to university or college because of that.
I'm hoping this will be a step that will lead us in that direction to a much more targeted needs-based grants program that takes into account academic merit but also fine-tunes it and reforms the student loan system so it makes university more accessible to these 40 per cent of students who don't go there.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I share the member's concern and desire, I guess, to have the federal government follow suit with the needs-based grant. It is 20 per cent of the Nova Scotia student loan. It would be, I think, a very positive move and very encouraging if the federal government would follow that, but that's their decision, unfortunately, not ours.
However, one of the things that students said to us every time I've been talking with them is it would be better if the money that we have to support them in their education could be delivered up front. That's what caused us to - in that internal review I spoke of, where we looked at all of our student assistance programs, there was one program that we felt was very underutilized. That was the debt reduction which was after graduation, students would make application. We found that not a lot of students were taking advantage of that. We had about $8 million available through that, so our decision was that knowing up-front, needs-based grants would be important to students. It would allow students access to university, students who may not otherwise be able to go, so we redirected that money from the debt reduction after graduation to the needs-based, up-front grant.
The member mentions other groups and, you know, when you look through the whole menu of student assistance programs that we have, we have programs, we have assistance above the needs-based assistance program for low income, for students with dependants, for students with disabilities, for part-time students. So there are a number of ways that we have identified dollars that will help, and will support, and provide greater access to a greater number of students in need in this province.
MR. PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for her response. I do appreciate her clarifying the question about where the money comes from because a lot of this money, and rightly so, is a reshuffling of money from other programs that were not really being subscribed to. I do want to follow up on that to say that the fact that there are so many programs is not necessarily a good thing because these programs are often very hard to reach. They are inaccessible to a lot of students and often - I think we can see in the budget documents as well - there are programs where the money is not spent from year to year and then it's rolled over into general revenues and to other programs.
I'm thinking, in particular, although this is not in the minister's area of responsibility - I know the Employment Support and Income Assistance Program was designed to support
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precisely this type of student, yet we have only had a take-up of two or three students. It's just extraordinary that we have these programs ostensibly designed to make university and college more accessible and yet they seem to provide more barriers. The Employment Support and Income Assistance program, Regulation 67 in particular, seems anti-university, it's anti-college. I would certainly encourage the minister to use her good offices to try to change this program so that it does become more accessible to single parents and low-income people.
I'd like to ask a question also about the federal government and the whole question of integrating and harmonizing, to a certain extent, our programs. Many students complain about the lack of consistency, the amount of paperwork, the number of times documents are lost. I know the minister, when I asked her this question last year, said that she would embark on a full consultation, I believe was the phrase she used, with our federal counterparts, and at the time, the federal government was engaged in a review of its loans process. I'm wondering whether or not the minister will share with us any document that was submitted to the review, precisely what position the Government of Nova Scotia took at that time, and what the response was from the federal government.
MS. CASEY: You know, we did have discussion, the member opposite and my department have had discussions, about streamlining the process. We want to make sure that students (a) know that the funds are available and (b) can access them easily. One of the challenges within the department is to make sure that students can speak with someone at my department who can help them navigate the system, so to speak, and we're trying to make sure that is easier and less of a burden for students. So I think if you talk to the staff in my department you would realize that I have been at them fairly constantly about recognizing that we need to facilitate that process and speed things along.
With respect to where we are with the federal government, ongoing dialogue between my office, my deputy, and the folks in the federal government encouraging them, I guess you could say, to follow some of the practices that we have and trying, again, to make that not two separate applications but something that if they qualify for one they automatically qualify for the other. So any correspondence, if that would be of assistance to the member to let him know and have confidence that we're doing that, we would be glad to provide that.
MR. PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, just to be clear, I know in my opening remarks I said I appreciated very much the help of the staff, particularly Kevin Chapman, who seems to deal with most of these questions and helping people navigate. The problem isn't with the navigation, the problem is in the criteria that are set out for students and their ability to access it and the paperwork that's required of these students and potential applicants.
I wanted to move on to talk about another item in the budget and that relates to the increased loans to medical, dental and law students. As the minister knows, we've talked about this in the past, the debt of these students, particularly medical students, runs now at
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an average of $100,000. I'm not sure how allowing them to borrow $5,655 more this year helps make these programs more accessible to them.
I'll refer here to an editorial in The ChronicleHerald from May 5th, if I may, Mr. Chairman, that talks about attracting doctors, particularly to rural Nova Scotia. It cites: A national physician survey released last week revealed high tuition costs are a major factor in determining whether otherwise highly qualified students enter medical schools. More than one-third of those replying to the 2007 questionnaire were expecting their debt load from going to medical school to exceed $80,000. The study says these students decided not to go to medical school and also says that these students were principally from rural Nova Scotia, they were Aboriginal students, they were low-income students.
[5:15 p.m.]
The editorial says: "Those findings raise concerns over whether some students simply can't afford to train to become doctors, especially those from families in rural parts of Canada or from aboriginal communities, thus making it even more problematic to recruit doctors to those areas." - and I'm wondering what the department can do beyond adding to the debt burden of medical students?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the question of medical students obviously was on the floor of the House today with the announcement from our Minister of Health. I think we all recognize that there is a need to have more doctors in our province. We have a facility here that can train doctors and we have students in Nova Scotia who want to take their training in medicine here and they want to stay here. When we were looking at how can we help them, we had representation from med. students to come in and meet, and some of those representatives were from rural Nova Scotia and they wanted to practice in rural Nova Scotia. So we believe that we were hearing from the people who would be most impacted by any change or any decision that we made.
Two things that we've done to help students who are studying medicine, law, or dentistry - one of them is for their payment deferral. When they are going into internship, when they are articling - which is really considered a part of their study - normally they would be expected to start paying their loan once they stopped studying and started earning, so what we said was we'll make a change there so you can defer payment on your loan during that period of articling or, as I said, residency. So during that time they don't have to pay anything back on their loan and we pick up the interest. That was something that they agreed to, that they thought would be of great benefit to them when they, you know, looked at that being a major part of their study rather than the beginning of their employment, which is really the way it was interpreted. So we made that change.
The second thing we did, again with needs, and if students are in need of a student loan and they're in medicine, law or dentistry, we know that the cost of those programs is
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high, so we increased the amount of borrowing capacity that they would have, recognizing as I said that they would have higher costs. One of the things that we learned when we were talking to those med. students, and it's something that I'm sure everybody in this House would agree, is these students who become the doctors of our province want very much to pay back any money they have borrowed and they will have the ability to do that once they get established.
So there's never a question of not being able to pay back, but what we wanted to make sure was we did not expect them to pay back until they were well established and they were ready. So we worked it out with the med. students. They were happy with that. We believe both of those programs help them to some degree. As I said, the announcement this morning about support for extra seats for med. students in rural Nova Scotia is all going in the right direction, I think, Mr. Chairman.
MR. PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister for drawing attention to my Private Member's Bill on medical students which, in fact, the government was kind enough and wise enough to call and implement. I think allowing them the interest deferral was a good move and I was happy to be a part of that process. (Applause)
I want to ask about the Nova Scotia Community College as well. I think the Nova Scotia Community College is one of our great success stories - I had talked about declining enrolments before, and this is certainly not true of the community college. I've met Joan McArthur-Blair, the president, several times now and I must say I've been very impressed with the energy, the passion, and the vision that she brings to her position as the president of the Nova Scotia Community College.
I think there are a lot of great things happening there. Particularly, I visited the campus on the other side of the harbour and it is certainly impressive. I think great things are happening at the community college, and I'm wondering whether or not the minister has any plans or has any hope of extending this college system to other parts of Nova Scotia. I am thinking here principally of Sydney - it seems to me that what is happening across in Dartmouth, and what is happening in the HRM, could certainly be replicated in Sydney. Cape Breton could use an institution- well it has an institution like the Nova Scotia Community College, but expand it so that it can do something to help the local economy there, to help develop more skilled workers, perhaps in the offshore which is developing as well, and maybe even help bring some Nova Scotians back from other parts.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to be able to comment on the community college system that we have in this province and give just a little bit of the history of that. Of course, some of us remember when there were vocational schools in the province and the important need that those vocational schools met as students went through high school or sometimes even junior high and then into a vocational school. We also remember the sad day when those vocational schools closed, because it left a void. We seem to have a number of
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years where we had a population that, in my opinion, we did not serve well a number of students who were interested and inclined to move into the trades, good occupations, and we need them in this province, and we did not seem to have a mechanism for that to happen easily.
So when the community college started to evolve, it certainly picked up and provided a help to close that gap. It is a system that covers all of rural Nova Scotia. We have thirteen sites around the province and the renovations and capital dollars that we have allocated to the community college system have brought renovations to many of those rural campuses. So we do recognize they are part of a system; we do recognize the importance that they are in the communities out in rural Nova Scotia.
The other thing that we are doing with respect to those campuses is when we are increasing the number of seats and looking at programs that we can provide for students, we look at the local needs - and I will give you an example. When we announced the long-term care beds, the first question was how do we staff them, how do we train people to go into those long-term care beds as workers, and recognized the community college stepped up to the plate and said they would look at putting programs on in rural communities, and they responded very timely to any of those requests that we have made.
So we are continuing to build, grow and support all of the sites in rural Nova Scotia. We have a very modern building across the harbour. Phase II of that, we have turned the sod on that. So I think that the need that is being met, through that system, is important to the economy of this province. We recognize that we do not have the skilled trades workers that we need in this province and the community college will customize a program, they will help employers, they will provide the trades training that we need so our young people can fill those important jobs in this province.
We are proud of that system, very proud of it, and proud that it is a rural system, it's not just a metro program.
MR. PREYRA: Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt at all that the Nova Scotia Community College system represents a great opportunity and great potential for many parts of the province, especially in rural Nova Scotia and particularly in providing and meeting the needs of communities that need more skilled workers. But my question was much more specific, and that was whether or not there is any possibility of expanding and developing the community college system in Sydney.
I do want to move on from budgetary items to talking about the MOU, although I know there is a great deal of overlap between the two. I wanted to talk specifically about infrastructure. The budget document refers to the Crown share, of course, and that universities have been pushing hard for infrastructure money and we believe that money would be made available in the MOU, but it's not, it's in a side agreement.
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I'm wondering about the wisdom of using money that we don't have, the Crown share, for example. I'm wondering about the wisdom of just dumping money at the end of the year when really we need a stream of money over the year so that universities can deal with the infrastructure issue. I wonder about the rationale for using the Crown share in that way - not to say that infrastructure is not important, but we wanted universities to have some stability in their infrastructure money and this doesn't seem to present it here.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. Infrastructure all across this province is an issue. It's something that universities have brought to our attention, and deferred maintenance, or infrastructure needs, do exist. When we meet, and we do meet regularly with CONSUP, the university presidents, that's certainly something they identify.
Most universities have a lot of fundraising campaigns, capital campaigns and that delivers millions of dollars to universities for new buildings, but very rarely does that translate into renovations or infrastructure dollars, so they're left with a need, and we recognize that and when we were looking at how we might address that the university presidents were quite agreeable to establishing the trust fund. They recognized that as a positive step, that we, as a government, recognized the position they were in and we wanted to make sure that we had some dollars allocated to that fund that would be theirs to draw upon and help begin that infrastructure rebuilding.
MR. PREYRA: I want to draw the minister's attention to Clause 17(b) in the MOU and just ask for her interpretation of this: "To this end, the Parties commit to annual meetings during the life of this Agreement that facilitate identifying" - and this is the part I would like some clarification on - "a combination of funding mechanisms that will provide $25 million of infrastructure funds over the 3 year period of this MOU."
The concern is that the combination of funding mechanisms refer to raising tuition fees and raising ancillary or auxiliary fees if the Crown share does not yield the maximum $25 million that universities are allowed. In other words, the minister is assuming there would be $250 million in the Crown share forthcoming and that 10 per cent of that will be $25 million. I'm wondering if that combination of funding mechanisms means the universities will be allowed to raise tuition fees, and ancillary or auxiliary fees, during the life of the agreement, if the Crown share does not yield $25 million?
MS. CASEY: Thanks for the question. I'm glad to provide the clarification for that. As I said, the university presidents were certainly in agreement with establishing the trust and fully understood that funding mechanisms would not include increases in tuition or ancillary fees. It was very clear that was not part of that combination of funding mechanisms. But we're talking about things like if the universities wanted to bring money to the table, if they wanted to borrow money, if they wanted to have fundraising, if they wanted to look at any other ways they could bring money to add to the money that was in the trust fund, but it was clearly understood it was not on the back of the students.
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MR. PREYRA: I thank the minister for her clarification. I understand then that the combination of funding mechanisms will not include tuition increases, auxiliary fee increases.
[5:30 p.m.]
I have a question also about the participants at the table, again, the students - and we on this side of House fought hard to include students in the MOU negotiations and, by and large, were successful and I'm wondering whether or not, in the next round, staff and faculty could be included as well, because there is a concern that the MOU doesn't really say much about research and innovation and teaching, and that is a result of the fact that there really were no faculty members or faculty representatives at the table.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time for the honourable member for Halifax Citadel has expired.
The honourable member for Kings West.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, the minister made one comment earlier that she was prepared to do battle for university students and I guess there are lots of battles on the P to K front yet. Yesterday, I started off with one of the areas that, I guess, has become a special interest part of mine, a little bit of an outgrowth of my time in a rural school perhaps, in particular, and around special education and that area.
I want to reference a special education student and an incident that happened to a young man by the name of Lawrence Jackson. Lawrence Jackson made the front page story of one of the last editions of The Daily News, which was January 25, 2008. I'm not so much going to go into the particular details, but I'll just give a little background on that and then have a larger question. He was an autistic boy who was rescued by police in the middle of a four-lane highway after evading the person in charge of him at a Dartmouth junior high school - I think John Martin Junior High was the school, if I remember correctly. Yes, and he disappeared from that school on January 11th.
The Halifax Regional School Board spokeswoman, Shaune MacKinlay, said she would not confirm the identity of the student. I had a conversation at that time with his mother, and she asked me if I were asked by a reporter would I give some comment and statement about it, to which I said yes, I would. I don't think - perhaps either the NDP Critic wasn't available, and so she didn't do either of us in terms of the story, but I have followed up with the mother and I know that the Department of Education has responded by, you know, I guess, providing more EPAs to the school so that her child doesn't have to be bundled, if you wish, which often happens, although he did have a designated EPA, educational assistant.
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When I first heard of it and as I thought about this case, I guess what intrigued me a little bit because the story here - the EPA notified the principal, ran back to look for the student, and the principal and the police officer, who was in the school at the time, followed in a car. I guess there may be a little bit of discrepancy around that interpretation of the events that did follow. However, what I'm more concerned about is that we have in our school, now, a whole range of children with very severe disabilities - and I know the minister is, in fact, very aware of that - we have children who are severely mentally challenged, also those with some level on the autistic spectrum, physically disabled and so forth - and what I was concerned about first in this is I'm wondering if there is, from the Department of Education, a protocol when such a student is indeed missing from the school, because as the story and as the mother confirmed with me, this could have been an unfortunate situation as the boy was on a four-lane highway heading towards the MacKay Bridge, so I'm just wondering, does the department have a policy that schools are using or is it up to a school board, or a school, to put procedures in place when an incident like this happens?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, you know the safety of all the students, in all of our schools, all of the time, has to be a priority. Schools and school boards certainly have policies and procedures in place to make sure they provide the greatest possible safety precautions and care for all of the students who are there. It's true that we have many students in our public school system now who do require additional support, supervision and care, and the situation of which you speak is one example of students who just can't function without that support and without that supervision.
So the challenge for teachers and for schools is to make sure that they can modify or adjust any of their procedures based on the individual needs of that child, and for some that attention is greater - and there are some children, Mr. Chairman, who really can't be left alone at all. So it is a board policy. It is an expectation that boards have policy in place, schools have their own practices, but even down to the classroom level and to the individual student there has to be flexibility in when and how that supervision is provided. I would expect, when you have a student with the great needs that this particular boy has, the school would have practices in place.
Now the people who are working with the students - whether it's the teacher or whether it's the assistant - certainly have to be aware of the individual student's needs and the potential that's there for them to, perhaps, disappear. So the attention and the requirement for support and supervision varies, but it is a board policy, it's their responsibility to develop that. Implementation, of course, as you know, takes place at the school level and it varies depending on the severity of the needs of the child.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Madam Minister, for that explanation and clarification. I guess, perhaps, what we need to be looking at here, and the other part of this question - and they did change some of the procedure within the school, which was very good to see in terms of responding to what could have become a much more challenging incident, but Mrs.
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Cornelius went on to say that she doesn't blame the school or any particular person, she said the root of the incident is that there are not enough EPAs for the number of special-needs children at the school, and EPAs are expected to look after more students than they are assigned to - and that's an area that I feel, in terms of the last number of years, the province has not kept pace with educational dollars for our Primary to Grade 12 system.
We're seeing this concept - more and more of our special-needs students being bundled, and "bundled" here means you can have two or three, both in the classroom and also outside the classroom, to be looked after. I'm going to ask the minister here, just based on this one statistic - in a recent meeting with the school board and the superintendent of HRSB they have now identified for September, 2008, fifty autistic children who will be coming into the system, and I'm wondering if the budget that has been given the HRSB is allowing for this one and perhaps, now, not unusual number that we're going to see earlier identified that will come into the system, just like Lawrence Jackson and many others like him, are we going to take a shortcut and put him in a bundled situation - are you prepared, if the school board in its negotiations, probably continuing to some extent, give support to that kind of very extreme need?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to speak to the needs, we recognize there are many more children coming into our system with identified disabilities, so we have to be constantly trying to make sure that we have teachers in place who understand the disabilities and the strategies to deal with them, that we have the dollars in the special education funding to provide support for those students, and it is ever-increasing, there is no question.
So part of the funding formula does speak to special education and, based on a ratio of population, boards get funding designed, specifically targeted, for special education. Out of that, the boards would look at where they need to put those dollars to help with the supports, the assistance and programming for students with special needs.
The fact that the Halifax board has already identified fifty new students coming in, again, I guess, reinforces my earlier comment that we are receiving more and more students with special needs, and the challenges of how we provide for them in schools gets greater and greater. I would like to think that the Halifax board, and all other boards, would look at priorities and what is the best use of the dollars they have, but I would also like them to make sure they take advantage of the opportunity to meet with our staff. With respect to autism in particular, we have staff at the department, we have in-service training for teachers, we've done a lot of programs to help teachers better cope. I think once teachers understand and know how to cope, they can make better use, or more efficient use, of the dollars that are there.
As I've said before, Mr. Chairman, boards can always come to the department, and they do, and they talk about the funding and the needs that they have and is there a way that the gap can be closed. So I know the funding is going to that board. I know they're going to
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have to look at their priorities and how they can best meet the needs, and if there is still a challenge for them - I expect that there will be - I would invite them to come to the department and share that with us.
MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, just one last, I guess, short look at this. It says, for example, the EPA is now in immediate contact with the office, through a walkie-talkie; the student is changing classes when there are fewer distractions; walking ahead of the EPA in the hallway is no longer permitted because the school has some unique curved hallways which limit the sightlines and so forth of a teacher or an EPA looking after the student. So they've made some provisions.
[5:45 p.m.]
When we hear of corrective measures here, which I believe will be very, very satisfactory, is the minister prepared to take a look at, just on a policy level, recommendations to boards in terms of creating safer and more secure schools? Because we now have students who perhaps when the minister and I, and the Speaker, started our careers we did not find in schools, and that's just a reality today and, therefore, perhaps some broad policy pieces, in fact, may be more effective than leaving it up to a board and for school interpretation.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm really pleased to hear that the school has been able to look at making some accommodations, changing practices, so that they feel more comfortable, the parents feel more comfortable that the boy, in this case, is well supervised.
It's true, I guess, that three of us in the room did start our careers a while ago and that new challenges are there. What we've done with respect to autism - because, again, that's something that actually was quite unheard of in the earlier years of our teaching but certainly becomes very prominent now - and that is we have looked at a four-year program, we're going into the third year of that four-year program, where we have done some things, Mr. Chairman, that I hope will help get the best practices out there into the schools, and so we can learn from the example that was shared here.
We do have an autistic consultant hired at the department, an advisory team, and eleven demonstration sites. Those are around the province but, again, those are bringing teachers in. We've provided professional development, Mr. Chairman, for about 150 teachers so far as we move through that approach, and making sure that they are aware of and understand and can respond to the needs of autistic children. So as that awareness and that professional development and that sharing of best practices continues, we would like to think that the number of incidents like this one get reduced, because one is one too many.
Again, I guess our focus right now is on professional development and giving teachers the information and the tools they need, and the assistants who are working with
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these students. We know that the Department of Health has invested a lot - I think $4 million - into early detection, early intervention. We have to get a handle on this particular disability and we have to make sure that we have the professionals who understand the disability giving us some direction as to how we can best cope with it. That's the progress we're making, that's where we're headed now, but we will continue to look at how we can improve on that delivery.
MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, I did leave three of my colleagues out here who at least started careers in the classroom - the member for Timberlea-Prospect, of course the member for Truro-Bible Hill, and the deputy minister himself, I think, had that wonderful time in a classroom, at least in New Brunswick, I don't know if Nova Scotia was the case or not.
The area that I would like to take a look at is the cancellation of pre-Primary and early childhood education. There is no question that the two years that were first given for the pilot project was very quickly moved to three years because it was a program that, in my view, I would think was very, very difficult for the minister and her Department of Education to drop, yet the 19 sites, it had received not just strong, but impressive reviews of what this program was accomplishing in terms of readiness for primary, in detection of childhood disabilities and also early interventions, which we know are so critical to a child's future in school, so I am wondering if the minister and the department - I know having evaluated the program and I know it was moved aside because of picking up 2,100 more students for Primary this year - is that evaluation and the good work that was done going to be incorporated into some kind of future initiative? Also, the curriculum that was put in place, in talking to a couple of the early childhood educators, is there some way of capturing all of the good results that we were able and, of course, the department was able to gather in - I guess a little bit of a look at the future here, Mr. Chairman.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, before I answer your question, I would just like to follow up on your comment about three of our other colleagues who are involved in education, and I would just like to remind the House that it is probably a different generation, but at least they did have some experience when we came on.
I do want to go back to your question - you know the pre-Primary program was an excellent program and it was a pilot for three years, and during the course of that three years we recognized its value. Early intervention, in catching these young learners at an early age, we learned a lot from that program, Mr. Chairman, and one of the things we learned was that the curriculum that we had developed was appropriate for that age group, and the environment in which we delivered that curriculum allowed for a play model of learning, which certainly was effective.
A couple of challenges with that - it was nineteen sites. The participation in those pre-Primary classes, Mr. Chairman, was voluntary. Transportation was the responsibility of
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the parent and so right from the get-go you were not providing equal opportunity for all four year olds in the province. So when we looked at that, we looked at the value of it. We wanted to make sure that we were able to capture that value so that every four year old in this province could take advantage of that, and one of the ways to do that was to change the age of entry date and capture at least three months of those students to come into primary early, and to make sure that the good things in that curriculum that we had piloted and found to be effective were incorporated into the Primary program.
So to do that, we had a consultant at the department who was there for the three years and who was instrumental in leading that pre-Primary initiative, and has been kept on because we value the leadership that she provided and we want to make sure she is there as a resource and a support when we take that curriculum and enhance the Primary program with that. So, by making the change, we have given the opportunity to all students across the province who wish to be early learners, coming into Primary at an earlier age, that opportunity is there. Some parents will take advantage of that and some will not, but we have been fair in that the opportunity has been provided for every student in the province and, of course, because they are in our public schools, the transportation and all of those things are our responsibility.
The other thing that we are doing - we are hearing from many communities to say this was a great program, we don't want to lose it, and so what we've said - and it may be in co-operation with Community Services, it may be individually not-for-profit groups who we are encouraging to say if you want to deliver that program, in fact we believe that that's going to be delivered in some of the schools in some of the current sites that we have. So we welcome that opportunity, but we wanted to make sure that what we had, which was a good thing, was made available to all students in the province. So we incorporated the curriculum into our Primary, as I said, we've kept on the consultant, we've started in-servicing our Primary teachers so they're familiar with this. We could have about 2,200 students who will not be five until the end of December who may take advantage of that. So we're ready to receive those young learners.
MR. GLAVINE: I guess, as the pre-Primary has been dropped, the Four-Plus program here in HRSB hasn't had a final determination as to whether it will go forward. In speaking with the board, it is something that they strongly desire to keep going. We all know the investment now in early learning, and one of the strong proponents and, of course, experts in the field, Dr. Fraser Mustard, has talked about the investment in the early years - there's a $6 to $7 gain for every dollar invested.
So it is a bit surprising that so much was learned first-hand by the department by venturing into early learning with four year olds and established some early childhood education in the province, that while we know good things have been happening both in the private and subsidized daycare systems.
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Just to finish off on this topic, I'm wondering if the department had given any consideration to having the pre-Primary delivered through a daycare concept?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I know that the member is very knowledgeable about early childhood and early learning and we've talked many times about the value of that structure for early learners. We had to make a choice, and if we expanded pre-Primary to all across the province we would have challenges with transportation, we would have challenges with who's providing the instruction in the classroom, is it an early childhood educator or is it a teacher? We wanted to make sure that - as I said, we took the best of the curriculum and captured part of that four-year-old population.
I would encourage any not-for-profit group, I would work with my colleague in Community Services and make sure that if there's an interest in a community that we, through the schools, can certainly, where possible, provide facilities so that can happen. As I said, I know that it is in a number, and I know in the Halifax board they're looking at transition from their Four-Plus.
So it's ongoing. This was the first major step. The first step was the pilot, the second was the change of entry date, and the third will be how many opportunities and sites around the province can we look at that will be delivering some form of a pre-Primary program.
MR. GLAVINE: I'm sure it will be an area, early childhood education is not going off the radar and it will be one in one form or another that I'm sure perhaps all of the MLAs here and, in particular, the Education Critics will be on their feet about.
[6:00 p.m.]
At a recent meeting of the Valley MLAs, with AVRSB - a nice connecting piece here, with the change of age to December 31st and one very difficult for me to have any consternation about since I think I started with your predecessor, the member for Truro-Bible Hill, trying to get this bill through the House, but anyway I'm pleased it's there and it does put us on the national equivalency with at least eight other provinces - the superintendent of staff at that meeting said that there are a great many implications for additional costs for school boards. Some are teaching and support staff, resource materials, furniture, transportation, program planning, and health-related issues.
School boards should not be expected to bear additional costs, and any additional costs related to the changing entrance age should be above the normal allocation for P to 12 education. My question to the minister is in fact has this happened, and are the boards expressing content that there is strong provision for this change?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, we certainly recognize the impact that this would have on our schools with respect to facilities to accommodate - we needed the classrooms, the
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resources in the classroom, the staff to staff them, the transportation costs, and so we have calculated and put into the budget that's before the House an additional $4.6 million to accommodate this change of entry. So boards should recognize that the additional funding to support that is coming to them. We're anticipating about eighty new teachers to accommodate those young learners, but we have certainly calculated those costs and written them into our budget.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Madam Minister. Through the chairman, one other area that was talked about at that meeting was even though there are sessions held for parents to bring their child to school for registration, early identification and so on, that's not the complete picture of what happens in our schools and school system. I'm wondering if the Department of Education ever thought about having a base number - not personal identification, but a base number - of children in the province through the Department of Health, through birth statistics, that would indeed be available for schools and school districts in areas to take a look at, which in fact could help planning to a more perhaps exacting way than what is currently done?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the member opposite would remember when Primary registration was being held in our schools and how we worked with the Department of Health, Public Health and folks like that, on birth rates and birth numbers, identifying the population and bringing them in for their pre-screening and Primary registration and all those kinds of events. I think we have come a long way in our sense of co-operation and sharing information, but we have certainly had discussions about student ID and how we can, I guess, identify students and have the information available through a database, or whatever. If that would facilitate the process, we certainly would be interested in pursuing that, but we have begun discussions with the Department of Health on that. It's something that we will continue to study, because if that in fact can facilitate that process and help us track our students and identify our students, then that would be, I believe, an asset.
MR. GLAVINE: One of the areas that I believe almost every time I meet with any of the boards - but we do meet on a regular basis with AVRSB, which, if it isn't something that perhaps all of us as MLAs do, meeting with the school board I have found to be very, very productive and it goes back to the days of Jim Gunn who was very, very open with all MLAs about any of the challenges, as well as the great things that were happening in the school system; in fact I would say that Dr. Gunn was one of the people who pushed strongly for a review of the funding formula when Mr. Hogg came along - one of the areas, in meeting with the boards, both the boards and the superintendents talk about is that there is some latitude, and I think it's a very good latitude, that boards have to take a look at development of local curriculum, local school projects that prove to be wonderful educational opportunities for children in our schools.
One of the things, however, is the non-targeted funding for these to be either continued or to be expanded upon because many of them are designed around helping to
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meet specific student needs. We all know that if there's any development that is perhaps the most positive from the Department of Education in public education is trying to individualize the curriculum and the delivery of programs in the school for as many students as possible. We know that's a tremendously laudable goal, but sometimes the school boards feel very much handcuffed by not having sufficient non-targeted funds. I know the minister is familiar, and now more familiar perhaps, each year with the funding formula. I'm wondering if the minister and the department look at the non-targeted dollars, which are very limited but in fact can have great educational possibility - could the minister comment on that, please?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, you know, as a department responsible for education across the province, one of the things that we pride ourselves in is having a provincial standard so that opportunities for students are as equitable as possible as we move throughout all of our boards, so that means a provincial curriculum, a standard curriculum - with some flexibility, of course, once you get into Grade 10, Grade 11 and Grade 12, with choice options for graduation and so on. But we do believe that it's important that every student in this province goes through a standard curriculum so at the end of the day a Grade 12 graduation certificate from Truro is the same as a graduation certificate from Annapolis, so that there is some standard and expectation that students have been exposed to the same curriculum - that leads us to targeted fundings so that boards do know what we expect them to deliver and we do give them the funds to deliver that.
I do appreciate the comment about local curriculum. There's nothing to say that boards can't supplement - complement I guess is the word - complement the standard provincial curriculum with some local curriculum and enhance it and enrich it; in fact I believe that the Annapolis Valley Board is one that has made a decision that is perhaps not the same as other boards with respect to multi-grade options. They get the funding for their student enrolments but then have made a decision as to how they want to maybe use that a little differently than some other boards. So there is a bit of flexibility there, but as far as a lot of non-targeted money, the member is correct, there is not a lot there, but with the dollars that they have and with the creativity that exists in some boards they are able to complement the provincial curriculum with some local.
MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, I bring that up because even some large and small initiatives that had been traditionally funded, even by some of the food sales that schools had, have pretty well dissipated over the last number of years. Also, I think the province, rightly, in public education, since I've arrived here at the House, and I think all members became very concerned about, and that was the escalating number of fees that students, parents and families were having to come up with, and I think for public education we are doing a much better job with taking the fees for a microscope, or whatever it may have been, and we're looking after them through the public education dollar.
We have these good programs in schools and then even some larger ones that are put there as a pilot, deemed to be very valuable, but yet are not instituted province-wide, and one
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of the ones I will ask the minister about that has been very, very successful in AVRSB and that is the alternate school - I'm wondering if this is now happening province-wide and all boards are using the alternate school?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, would it be possible for me to make an introduction at this point?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do.
MS. CASEY: I'd like to draw people's attention to the gallery opposite where we have a visitor from the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board, a member of the board - sorry, South Shore board, sorry, Marg - a friend of mine and long-standing board member in this province, Marg Forbes. I'd like to welcome you to the House. (Applause)
To go to the member's question about alternate schools - we have a number of boards that have alternate schools, and the funding for that - of course those students are in the complement, in their enrolment numbers, and so the funding that goes to that board is based on the student numbers, then the board makes the decision what's an appropriate programming for that particular student. So the alternate schools that exist are dotted throughout the province and, as you say, the Valley board is one of those boards that has recognized that there's a need there that can be best met, for those students, in an alternate setting.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Madam Minister. That was just one that I used as an example.
Since the budget process has gone on with the school boards, I've heard from three boards and they spoke in terms of the dollars for public education, by feeling that they're not able to move a number of very strong initiatives at the rate they had anticipated introducing, and in fact are pretty stagnant or may even lose a few along the way - and they referenced O2, math mentors, class size initiative and support for students with challenges that had been identified through provincial assessments, and ended by saying the funding commitment in education, the budget, to complete important provincial initiatives have not been as strong for two years in succession, and also the school board association has come out very strongly with that. The member from the Nova Scotia School Board Association that you just introduced, Marg Forbes, would be a strong proponent, perhaps, of that statement.
I also would like to welcome Marg here tonight as I know her family and had the privilege of teaching and coaching at least one of her children along the way.
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[6:15 p.m.]
It's a big area that school boards and central office staff are now confronted with - the four or five areas that I've talked about, and one that I would like for the minister to expand on perhaps a little bit more is that recent testing at the Grade 6 level clearly indicated that we have one in four students who are not meeting the expectations for literacy, and there is now a direct approach to try to put in place support for those students so that they don't struggle for the continuing years. There is every indication that in stretching the budgetary dollars, it is going to be very, very difficult to provide the assistance that these students need. So I would like the minister to react to those comments, please.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the member has mentioned some initiatives that we have introduced. They have been very successful and our budget this years shows a continuation of, and building on, those initiatives that we have started. I am going to get to the assessment question in a minute, but I just do want to say that with respect to the O2, which we talked about before and which was very successful, our budget this year shows us adding ten new sites to that, to go from thirty-four to forty-four sites - our goal being to have O2 delivered in every high school in our province. So we recognize the value. It's been very positive, very well received and so we have committed the dollars to add to that, actually $2.25 million in this budget, to help move toward the ten new sites and move it from Grade 11 to Grade 12 in the ones we currently have.
The other initiative that you mentioned was mentors and we have been adding mentors in literacy and math, Mr. Chairman. For this upcoming budget, we have included sixteen new mentors, eight in literacy, eight in math - again, building on what we currently have in our system - and that leads me to the real question about assessment. We have a number of assessment tools that we use in the province because I think we recognize that we need to know, first of all, how our students are achieving on the curriculum, we need to recognize if they are not achieving at a level that we believe is satisfactory and acceptable, that we have to do some analysis to see where they are not having the success and what we can do to help them, whether it's different strategies, whether it's more supports, but we need to look at how we can address that.
To that end we have implemented a whole series of assessments where we get an early read in Grade 3 and that helps us target those students who need some special supports. We check those students again when they are in Grade 6 and we see if the skills that were weak have now been strengthened, and then on into Grade 9 and Grade 12 - so that is our regime. We recognize that by identifying those areas where skills were weaker than we wanted in Grade 3, we have tracked those and when those students were assessed in Grade 6 we can measure whether the intervention had been successful or not. So we have that as a provincial assessment tool.
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We recognized last year, when the math results at Grade 12 were less than satisfactory, that we had to go back and ask the question, why? What has happened? It certainly is not the students' fault that those scores were not as good as we wanted, so we had to look at what other factors were there - curriculum, time on task and intervention. We recognized, again, that what we were doing in literacy and language was helping, so we adopted the same model for assessment in math. We started that in Grade 3 and we will move it up.
So we recognize that an assessment is only as good as the analysis that you make and the changes that you make because of that. So the comment about where we are, it's not good enough. It's never good enough until you have everyone who is achieving at their maximum, and so we, as I've said, have added more money in this budget to increase the number of mentors and get that early one-on-one, or early intervention, and help students with strategies that will make them more successful.
We also look at national and international assessments, because we want to have an idea of where our students are with respect to their age group across the province or around the world. So, again, we do random assessments, 14- and 15-year-olds, and we have that kind of comparison as to where we are on the national and international scene. With respect to our own curriculum and our own assessment, we are putting the supports in and those students, as I said, who have some difficulty in Grade 3 or Grade 6, we hope, with that intervention, will have better results in Grade 9.
MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, there are many questions that can be asked around this and how the current budget will address some of these issues of O2, whether or not every school will be able to move from Grade 11 to Grade 12, keep that continuum going in a project that seems - not seems, but is being received very, very strongly, and the class size initiative seems to have gotten off track a little bit this year. Out of the budget increase, I want to first determine this: What percentage, or millions of dollars, will not be going to the one major item of school board employees' salaries but will be targeted towards the curriculum, towards the delivery of the PSP and its accompanying programs?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, I can give you, I guess, an estimate. We generally say that about 80 per cent of our funding is for teacher salaries. So that would leave about 20 per cent for all other expenses in the board, but generally it's about 80 per cent that is teacher salary.
MR. GLAVINE: So in this particular budget that will impact on the 2008-2009, or part of that, or that school year, what will this actually translate into?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, that's a bit of information we're going to have to collect and get for you. I think the broad range of 80 and 20 would be my answer at this point, but we can get you the detail and break that out.
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MR. GLAVINE: I was just wondering - I know I'm probably reaching the end of my hour - exactly what time that would be, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member has approximately seven minutes left.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much. I think it's an important question because we really need to address the reality, the fact that we have been around last place in the country, moving up a little bit to second-last place in terms of per student funding, and one of the things that I hear, again, from all school boards is the number of special-needs students who are in our school system. There's no question - and I've said this in the House before - that the $30 million of new spending that the Nova Scotia School Board Association had put forward, and I think very, very well substantiated in areas in which they wanted to see funding move, and in particular overall the per-pupil funding, so I think that's obviously a laudable goal and request, but a very realistic one and a very needed one in light of some of our standing provincially and also nationally in terms of how our students are doing - and again, the reality check now in this coming school year, we know that fuel to heat our schools is going to really ring in big additional dollar requirements.
So I think it's an important question that I'm asking here because we do have to get more directed dollars into the PSP and into support of those programs right across the curriculum. I look forward to getting that. I will end off this hour and look forward to the next hour - I've spent three hours on P to 12, and I haven't gotten to post-secondary yet.
One of the areas that school boards now are starting to voice, a bit like our universities, even though each board can talk about some wonderful new facilities and the province's new construction program, however maintenance in our schools is of a major concern. The concern that is often raised and how it's presented, is support for that preventive maintenance and looking at the life cycle of a school so that we can get those injections and extend the life of our schools.
We all know that some of our buildings expired long before they should have. I think it's important that we be able to get the full life of an intended building from a construction point of view, so I'm wondering where we're moving on that preventative maintenance side.
MS. CASEY: Just a couple of responses that I think will help paint the picture of where we are. We know where we need to go; we certainly have needs, within all of our schools, for maintenance. Our capital budget, at the provincial level, over the last number of years, has been between $80 and $90 million. Some of that's new construction, but a lot of that is renovation and that addresses a lot of the maintenance and deferred maintenance issues that exist in our schools, because when we go in to do a renovations project, very often that renovations project includes a scope of work that perhaps was the responsibility of the board and it had not been done - whether that's a roof, or windows or whatever.
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We know that scope does grow as we get into a renovations project, and one of the reasons why it has taken a long time to work through that 2003 list is because what was identified initially, when you get into a school and you have the contractors in there, they're starting to work and they say, yes, but we need to do A, B and C, which were not originally there, so that drives the cost up.
One of the ways to address some of that maintenance is through our capital. But, there are also maintenance dollars that go to each board and they try to use those to keep ahead of the needs at the school level and we encourage them to use that money wisely. In this coming budget that's before the House now, there is $1 million that's allocated non-capital, for boards to use for those maintenance issues. There are at least three ways that we're trying to help boards deal with that ongoing maintenance issue - through our own capital, through the $1 million non-capital, and through their maintenance budget.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member has approximately just over one minute left.
[6:30 p.m.]
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much. With regard to provincial assessments, which we all know are critically important to knowing where our students are and where we can move them to a higher level of achievement, one of the other concerns that I've heard from at least two boards, or at least two superintendents - I had better make that distinguishing point there - is that there seems to be such a long time from the testing to the results getting back to the schools.
This, in fact, hinders and encumbers some of the more direct work that can be done with those students if, for example, we're testing Grade 5 students at the beginning of their sixth year in school and then it's March or April, before we actually get results to the school. I just use that as one example but very often they're saying the interventions, and so on, are really wanting to be done much sooner. So perhaps, in the next session, we'll start with that topic again.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Time for a break, okay. The committee will recess for a few minutes. (Interruption) Okay, the committee will recess for five minutes.
[6:32 p.m. The committee recessed.]
[6:44 p.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I now call the Committee of the Whole House on Supply to order.
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The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to sharing my time during the next hour with various members of the NDP caucus, as they have some concerns they're going to bring to the minister's attention. Unlike the member for Halifax Fairview, who expects me to ask the predictable questions, my values have been compromised because there was this one afternoon when I had a meeting with the minister and the deputy and I had one of those fabulous sandwiches from Oliver's Coffees, so I've been bought off. Although I notice Dofsky's Catering and Oliver's Coffees have done quite well.
Maybe I could give a task to the deputy minister which might allow him to be occupied for a few minutes. It's nice to see him here, along with you, Mr. Youden, thank you.
In the book which I usually refer to as Public Accounts, Volume 3, when it arrives, I encourage every member to have a look at it. On Page 64, there is a request in there for The Learning Bar - I've been in a lot of them, but I've never been in one of these. Perhaps you could tell me what that money is for but, more importantly, Madam Minister, while those numbers are being looked at, I'm concerned about the fact, again on behalf of junior high teachers, that there is a curriculum vacuum - that's too strong a term - there's a curriculum neglect in junior high.
[6:45 p.m.]
In particular, I would like to, of course, if we could take a few minutes to talk about the audit. I thank you for finally making that audit available to us in March, I believe it was, when we looked at these numbers, I thank you for finally making them available. I just want to refresh members opposite and members of this side of the House.
When we looked at junior high students in social studies, 90 per cent of them were taught by teachers with a social studies background. Physical education, the people teaching those classes, the professionals teaching those classes, 89 per cent of them had a background in physical education. English, 59 per cent of the teachers who taught those classes had an English background. But hold your breath, because I'm coming to it - and you know the number as well as I do - math remains a concern, only 37 per cent of math students in this province are taught by teachers who have a math background. That is a major concern. I would like to ask the minister, what steps has she taken to address this concern that has been brought to our attention from the audit?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, thank you for asking questions with respect to the Education budget, even though you're no longer my favourite Education Critic with the NDP. (Interruptions)
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I would like to seriously talk about the concern that has been raised with teachers teaching out of subject area particularly at the junior high. That audit certainly gave us information that causes us to do some future planning. One of the things that we have done, I know that's the question that the member asks, is what have we done, and with respect to math, in particular, you know that we've just released the teacher education review and identified the need to have more teachers in this province who have math as a background. In fact, we went so far in that to say that with the B.Ed. program that we're proposing for Cape Breton University and the integrated program between Saint Mary's and Mount Saint Vincent, is that 70 per cent of those students must be enrolled in a program, a discipline, a teachable, that will allow them to fill that void that we have in some subjects, and one of those, of course, is math.
So we recognize that we need more teachers who have that background so they can be hired to teach in those schools and every student will have an opportunity to work with a teacher who has a background in math. As the member opposite will know, it's more of a challenge at the junior high level than it is at the senior high level to have teachers who are assigned within their own discipline, simply because of the way the classes are structured and also the critical mass that you need at a school to make sure that you have a teacher in the subject area that is their teachable. So it's a challenge, but that's one of the things we're doing.
Another thing that we're doing is looking at mentors to work with teachers so that if there's somebody who doesn't have a strong background in math, they can work with a mentor who will help them with some of the strategies that can be effective for them. The member opposite will know that the position of our Nova Scotia Teachers Union is a teacher is a teacher is a teacher. We recognize that, but we also recognize that having strength and background in the discipline in which you are teaching is certainly an asset for the teacher and for the students. So we are trying to make sure that we have teachers in the field who are qualified, have the training they need in that discipline and, in the meantime, providing mentors to help those teachers, who are out of their subject area, get the supports they need so they can be more effective.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that answer. I encourage you to continue to follow up on that particular initiative because it is of such consequence, particularly at the junior high level. I know members of this House are appreciative of the fact that between Primary and Grade 6, elementary school, everyone is involved in their school, everyone is concerned about their children's education and when they get to high school, the light at the proverbial end of the tunnel is there watching and they are, of course, motivated as they are old enough, and motivated towards various directions.
I want to bring, in particular, to the attention of the House that the current Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal's daughter is a junior high teacher, a junior high teacher who has wonderful qualifications - obviously her mother's direction and
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incentive, because she taught at Brookside. If I may use his name, Mr. Scott's daughter taught at Brookside Junior High and was so well received because of her commitment to the students. I hope that teachers look at junior high not as a stopping-off spot in their career, but if you're going to teach children, they really need some assistance, direction and motivation, junior high is the place for those teachers.
I welcome the minister's comments to the next question when I talk about a topic that you might find a little difficult for an old jock like myself, but I believe that band plays a crucial role in junior high. Music in high school is an important course, but band in junior high, in some situations, is becoming nothing more than an extracurricular activity. It's taught first thing in the morning when students get there early, some of them even before the buses arrive. It's taught at lunchtime, not in class time at all, and of course there are after-school activities with the band. We cannot allow this to continue to happen.
Craig Evans is a young parent from Jamil's Road in the Village of Prospect. Craig has a son who's in Grade 6. He's concerned about the fact that he wants to make sure that band remains an integral part of the curriculum in junior high, Madam Minister - not an extra-curricular activity, but part of the curriculum.
Can you assure parents whose students in junior high are enrolled in band - this is at Brookside Junior High where Grade 6 students attend - is junior high band going to become a thing of the past if it's not taught as a regular part of the curriculum and instead, is taught as an extracurricular activity? That's no future for band as an integral part of the school system in our province. I look forward to your comments.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the question with respect to band, band is not part of our Public School Program, our PSP. It is an extracurricular, if you want to use that word, and in some boards and in some schools it's a very important part of the school program.
As the member has said, usually the instructional period, the practice periods, are outside of instructional time, early in the morning, at lunch or after school and the reason it's there, of course, is because it isn't part of the PSP. However, we know that school boards have often made arrangements, in particular at high school and at the junior high level, to provide that support and have taken dollars to hire a band instructor and with a band auxiliary, have been able to produce some very, very fine junior and senior high bands across this province.
Is it part of the curriculum? No. Should it be? I guess that's a question we at the department have to look at and we will take that as an area to look at and to consider.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I know the member for Truro-Bible Hill, and any other person who is connected with high schools, realizes the success of places like the Cobequid Education Centre. My good friend from Shelburne's daughter teaches, I believe, in one of
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the schools in your area, Mr. Chairman, where band is an integral part of the curriculum and cultural program at the high school level.
Next Wednesday night, at Sir John A. Macdonald High School, I have the opportunity to be the MC as we look at the band programs that are going to take place at that time from the junior highs and, of course, from the high school itself. It's an important part of the school system and I hope it continues.(Interruption) No, I'm not playing any instruments or singing any songs. The member from Cape Breton does not have to be involved, whether he wants to at this stage or not, in the debate.
The final comment that I would like to have before I find out what The Learning Bar is, is my last question. I'm intrigued about what The Learning Bar is. I'd like to talk about the recommendations of the Nunn report, now that I'm a justice expert, let's just call me a Justice Critic. The Nunn Commission - Merlin Nunn, of course, did such a monumental job with his recommendations, and I know coming out of the Nunn report, let's remember the fact that the young man who was involved in that terrible tragedy involving Theresa was, of course, a junior high identifiable problem in his schools that he was trying to attend, let's leave it at that. Archie Billard was an identifiable problem in the schools in which he was attending, but through the junior high years, what actually was done?
Now we have an attendance centre which is working fairly well, from my feeling, and the Justice Minister assures me that there are going to be examples of the attendance centre, which is working at the old St. Patrick's High School. I'm concerned about the fact that one of the recommendations that Justice Nunn came forward with was that there should be support workers at the junior high level.
Now, I received a call from a good friend of mine this morning who has my cell number and called me about an education issue and asked me to please bring up the fact that in the Halifax Regional School Board, this year again, they'll be making sure that they have support workers, one support worker for every two junior highs. If the Nunn Commission has serious recommendations that we should be listening to, not just in the Justice Department but in the Education Department as well, support workers and the fact, of course, that these are people involved with our students, at-risk students, at the junior high level, concerns about attendance, concerns about behaviour, concerns about learning styles, the HRSB has taken the initiative to just proceed.
But it's a concern on behalf of the Halifax Regional School Board, of this particular person I heard from this morning, that where are we with the enactment of this recommendation from the Nunn Commission that support workers at the junior high level should be made available to assist teachers with at-risk students?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, as the member would know, there were five departments that came together with the Nunn Report and the recommendations out of
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that report. Community Services is the lead on that, but Education is certainly very much a partner there, and we recognize the importance of junior high and the importance of intervention and supports at that level. We have not taken the step yet to put those positions in place. What we have done, we looked at the initiative which we call Schools Plus, and that's where we have a team of support.
We have four sites around the province where we've started that - Chester District Elementary, E.B. Chandler Junior High, and two sites in Halifax to be determined. We see that as the beginning of bringing what we maybe call wraparound or total services to a school, because many of the young people who need the supports from one or the other of those main five departments, it's the same clientele. So this will allow the services to be on-site and to be delivered in an integrated and coordinated way. So that's the step that we have taken at this point, but boards certainly can take an initiative on their own, and we will be continuing to look at how we can implement other recommendations within the Nunn Report.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that answer, that at least she's giving us some assurances. The O2 program has been so successful at the high school level. I remember attending that event at Cobequid that winter's day when we looked at what O2 was going to be all about, that Options and Opportunities program, and the possibility with its success at the high school level that it should perhaps also be looked at for junior high.
[7:00 p.m.]
Those are my questions about junior high curriculum. I thank you for your answers, but is anybody going to tell me what The Learning Bar is?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, The Learning Bar is the name of a supplier that we have that supplies services to collate and, I guess, summarize and collate the results of student learning materials. It's an evaluation kind of service. The Learning Bar provides an evaluation service for assessments that we do. They compile the information, they collate it and they deliver it to us.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I'm quite disappointed with that answer. A good answer, thorough as usual, I'm glad we had the chance to have this conversation. The Learning Bar question kept Mr. Cochrane busy for the last 14 minutes. Thank you again, Dennis. I'd like to turn the floor over to the member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.
MS. BECKY KENT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to my colleagues in the caucus for allowing me a bit of time here today. I want to ask a couple of questions on a
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couple of issues. It won't be any surprise that you'll hear some questions on the high school for Eastern Passage but, as well, I'll be looking for some answers on some diabetes policies in Nova Scotia schools.
My position on the need for a high school in Eastern Passage is no secret to anyone. I want to say, though, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the minister, that I do appreciate her comments in the hour of interruption last night in late debate. I believe the minister was sincere in her acknowledgment of the frustration that my community is feeling at this point. I appreciate that she recognized the passion that's required and the issue at hand for the residents of Cole Harbour and Eastern Passage.
I also appreciate the comments by the member to my left, the member for Kings West. There's no doubt that his comments about the need for the issues not to be only about population, but about the cohesiveness, the connection to the community, the importance to the whole community, which contributes to the success and the education of our students in our communities.
In keeping with that positive atmosphere on this issue, which was started last night, the minister asked me, on behalf of the constituents in Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage, to be patient one more time. I guess my first question will wrap around that, how long - what is time to you, Madam Minister? When will the minister be deliberating and considering this issue with her School Capital Construction Committee and when can the community of Eastern Passage-Cow Bay-Shearwater, and possibly Woodside, expect to hear back from Madam Minister on this important issue?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for her comments. Yes, my comments were sincere. I do want to again review a bit of the process and make sure that everyone understands the direction that comes from the boards to the School Capital Construction Committee is what helps them make their decision, but it's only a recommendation from a board. When that recommendation comes in, what our staff at the department and board staff start looking at is have all of the factors been considered, is this the best place to build a school, or is this the best way to use our renovations dollars. So that dialogue takes place back and forth.
Currently there's nothing on the 2003 list for the Eastern Passage school. We all know that list very intimately, and there has been no list come to the minister to go on to Cabinet since that time. However, since 2003, and up to the present, the dialogue continues and as we talked last night, Mr. Chairman, Eastern Passage has been on, it's been off, it's been on, it's been off.
It is my expectation that another capital construction list will come from that committee to me and on to Cabinet by the end of this summer, because we have not had one since 2003. We have a need to move forward - I've been delaying doing that because I
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wanted to clean up and move forward on a lot of the projects that were currently there and were approved in 2003. But we have been making significant progress there and it's now time to look at that next list. So I will make a commitment, Mr. Chairman, to the House that we will be looking at the minister bringing a list of capital construction projects to Cabinet by the end of this summer.
MS. KENT: Thank you for that comment. I guess I'm a little concerned about the suggestion that the Eastern Passage school was not on a list since 2003. Clearly, it was on a list in 2006, and if I recall correctly last night Madam Minister had said - I believe the way it was articulated was that you had actually asked for it to be taken off the list. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one, but I distinctly recall it being on a list in 2006.
Okay, so the end of the summer gives you time to deliberate, I guess, and you did take the time in this response to give me a bit more of a sense of the things that you'd be looking for. I guess I want to know two things: If the list that comes back from the regional school board still does not have an Eastern Passage high school, are you prepared to put it before the Capital Construction Committee for at least discussion and consideration? And if, in fact, there's a determination that this school board, at this time, missed the boat and you deem it reasonable to right this wrong and propose a school for Eastern Passage, are you prepared to override that board?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, just let me explain that when I said it was there and it was not, I was referring to it having been recommended by the board and then, when they came back, their priorities had changed - but what I will say to you is because it was recommended at one point, it is, so to speak, in the hopper and it will be going before the Capital Construction Committee when they do their deliberations to put together a list for me.
MS. KENT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to you, Madam Minister. My question, or my issue is around the students with diabetes in schools and the policies around it. Clearly it's important that the individual needs of children are met. Diabetes can be a life-threatening situation where an emergency glucagon kit is needed to save a life, much like an EpiPen, and some schools allow for this and some do not. That's challenging for parents - they want to know that when their children go to school they are safe and all the measures are in place.
It's disheartening in so many cases, Mr. Chairman, that families are actually the ones having to go to bat and train the teachers and coordinate the intervention should their child need it. Very few school boards, to my understanding, have policies on this. There is a recognition that the province needs province-wide consistency.
I know my colleagues in the NDP caucus have brought this forward before, and it is my understanding that the Department of Education is currently developing a province-wide
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policy and protocol. I understand that they're working with the Strait Regional School Board, the IWK diabetes team in hopes - my understanding is, and I'd like clarity on this from the minister, is that pilot in place? The way I understood, it was to be from April or May and, if that went well and was successful, there was an intention to proceed with implementation across the province in September. So two questions, is this pilot happening - is the information I have correct? And, if that is so, is the implementation plan for the province still in line for a September movement forward on it? Thank you.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I'm disturbed by the fact that there may be schools, may be parents who are having difficulty getting the response that they need at the school in order to make sure that their child's safety is looked after. That disturbs me. So I can tell you that as a result of that comment there will be a thorough investigation as to what is in place at schools and what is in place in boards, and whether it's a provincial policy or whether it's a board policy, or whether it's a school practice - we will make sure that there are mechanisms in place so that parents feel comfortable and have the supports they need to make sure that teachers are trained and there's an action plan ready in a school.
We did that with a number of other situations with student's health and diabetes is no different than that, so we will be following up on that. With respect to where we go provincially, that will depend on the results of what's happening right now, but it's something that we will followup on from two aspects - what's happening with the pilot and what needs to happen provincially, so a commitment to do that.
MS. KENT: Just to be clear, the pilot is happening?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I will be checking on the pilot to see if it is happening, where it's happening, how it's happening and what the results of that are. If it is positive and it's something we need to extend, we will.
MS. KENT: Thank you, Madam Minister, for taking the time with me, and in the spirit of teamwork I'll pass the baton off to the honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.
MS. MARILYN MORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have three questions and I do hope, in the short time that I have available to me, I can get succinct answers on these. You won't be surprised - the first one I want to know is how much money is going to be spent on the Dartmouth High renovation, and when?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I'll try to give you a very succinct answer so you get a chance to ask the other two. Dartmouth High will be one of those schools that comes before that Capital Construction Committee, the same as Eastern Passage and all of those ones that
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have been identified by boards, and that will be part of the consideration when we develop the capital construction list in the summer, by the end of this summer, so Dartmouth High will be in the mix there.
MS. MORE: Thank you. I'd be curious to know - I understand from earlier meetings that we had, the member for Dartmouth North and myself had with you and senior staff and staff of the Halifax Regional School Board that in 2006-07, $90 million was allocated for the capital construction part of your budget; last year, 2007-08, $63 million was allocated - what is the figure for 2008-09?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. Your numbers are correct - $90 million, $63 million and $79.7 million is in the budget for 2008-09.
MS. MORE: So just a supplementary question - we're still not up to the capital budget figure of two years ago, then? You said $79.7 million and it had been $90 million in 2006-07.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. That's correct.
MR. MORE: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, my last question, possibly, is around the school maintenance funding that's allocated to different regional boards. I'd like to know if you have any figures showing last year's school maintenance budget for the Halifax Regional School Board and what has been allocated for the upcoming year.
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. I hope I'm answering the question that you're asking - last year it was $1.5 million for all of the boards, and this year in the budget it's $1 million.
MS. MORE: Okay, I'm just wondering - I understand there's some general funding that goes for school maintenance, but isn't there a category between the general maintenance that the school boards allocate and capital construction?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. Yes, there are really three different levels: There is the capital which we spoke of, which is $79.7 million; there is the $1.5 million, which is $1 million this year; and then there is a maintenance line within the board's operating budget. I can get you that number specific to Halifax if you prefer. Okay.
[7:15 p.m.]
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, it looks as though I have a little more time, so I will continue with my questioning - and I appreciate the quick answers for my earlier questions.
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I'm concerned. The minister may know that I served on the Dartmouth School Board for ten years, many years ago - let's say I started 30 years ago. So I have first-hand knowledge of how chronically underfunded maintenance budgets have been, and school boards all over this province have chosen to not cut their teacher and program budgets and, as a result, we have a lot of school infrastructure that requires a lot of upgrading and maintenance work. I'm concerned when I hear that there is $0.5 million less going to school boards to do that, so it is going to add to the further deterioration of those buildings. So I am just wondering, what is the rationale for giving less money for the major upgrades, the change from the $1.5 million to the $1 million for major maintenance projects?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, as I did mention earlier, there are really three sources of funds that go to help with maintenance of buildings, and I am pleased that the capital budget has grown from $63 million to $79.7 million, and part of that is for renovations and additions. Out of that capital, we do new school projects and we do renovations and additions, so some of those needs out in the school get addressed out of that pot of money. As you know, from the numbers, that has increased. So the fact that the overall $1.5 million distributed to all boards has gone down, the amount of capital that is available, again to all boards, has gone up. So we are hoping that will help us address some of those concerns.
I would say that when we have schools that have been on the capital construction list for renovations and additions, many times the work that we do, when we start the project, the scope of work grows because we pick up some of those things that boards have not been able to do, whether it's a new roof or windows or whatever. So we do address the problem in a variety of ways.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I guess my concern is that up until a couple of years ago the average was about $90 million a year being spent on capital construction, so I'm not sure that the government can claim any moral victory bringing it up to $80 million a year - I mean, it just worsens the problem. Do we have any idea what the capital construction budget was in 2005-06?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. As I reviewed the capital budgets myself, it was running between $80 and $90 million until last year and then it went down to the $64 million and then back up to the $79 million, but in those two years prior to it was between $80 and $90 million - I think it was closer to $90 million for each of those two years.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, I just want to finish by getting some sort of commitment from the minister about the value and commitment to elected school boards in this province. I won't get into my opinion on all of this, but I really value, and my caucus values, elected school boards. It's an important community-based level of government and I think we have seen a lot of the challenges facing Mr. Windsor, who is now the school board for the Halifax Regional School Board, and I think perhaps a lot of people underestimated the value of
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having neighbour and community representatives who were directly elected to the board to help them through some of these very difficult decision-making processes. So I am just wondering, philosophically and whatever, does the department have a stand, a position, on the value of elected school boards?
MS. CASEY: I'm pleased to be able to speak to that question and I've said it publicly many times over the last year and a half - and I'm proud to say it again - the delivery model that we have in this province now for public education includes elected school boards. They play a very important role in that delivery model. We have eight boards in the province and they are elected; they are elected to represent the people in their particular communities and they do play a significant role.
I would qualify that by saying when board members, individually and collectively, understand their roles and responsibilities as board members, and the relationships, one with another and with their senior staff, the boards are very functional and very effective. That's what we all strive for and that's what we have in most cases, at most times, in this province.
So the department obviously values school boards. We work with the Nova Scotia School Boards Association, and I have met with most boards during the course of my two years on more than one occasion. I want to hear from them; I know they play an important role. I want them to be functional, and I want them to be responsible for the governance they're given for the policy development, and that will allow staff to implement the policies and that will benefit all of our students. The structure and the model that we currently have with elected boards can work and, in most cases, it does work.
MS. MORE: I'd like to make a suggestion. I guess I'm getting to that stage of life where I can actually reminisce and think of the good old days. Back when I joined the school board there was a very active collaboration among the Department of Education, the Teachers Union, the School Boards Association, and what was then known as the Atlantic Institute of Education, and those four organizations sponsored regular training and orientation sessions. There was an opportunity, on a regular basis, for school board members to interact and learn from senior department and NSTU officials. This seemed to provide sort of a sounding board and an opportunity to iron out some of those personality and misunderstanding of role conflicts that have cropped up over the last several years.
I'm wondering - does the minister support perhaps a more proactive orientation and training program, so that school board members not only better understand their role but have the supports in place whereby they can actually perform what is a very complicated and difficult role?
MS. CASEY: The professional development component I think is what you're speaking of. The Nova Scotia School Boards Association has developed a number of training modules for their board members all across the province which will help them understand
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their role, the value of their role, the relationships, as I said, one with another and with staff, and all school board members have an opportunity to participate and go through those modules. The School Boards Association frequently will hold a symposium or a conference. We have the Partners in Education, which includes our school board members, members of the Home and School Association and members of the Teachers Union.
So there are opportunities for that open dialogue and discussion and working together environment, because we are all together for one reason and so if all of those partners have opportunities to meet and to discuss and dialogue and share, then our students will benefit from that.
MS. MORE: Mr. Chairman, in closing I want to thank the minister for the information she has provided and I would encourage the department to work alongside the School Boards Association and perhaps develop some mechanisms for dispute resolution and mediation, so that when there are some early symptoms that things aren't going well there's a process in place whereby everybody understands what might happen next, and the supports are in place all the way through that process.
I would now like to hand off my time to the member for Pictou East. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Pictou East.
MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, my time is very limited so I'm going to be quick with my questions and, hopefully, we'll get a chance to get a few of them in.
The area of responsibility that I have gotten the most e-mails and the most calls on is the underfunding of the Pictou-Antigonish Regional Library. That's the area of the minister's responsibility that I'm hearing most about, and can I be assured that the needs of the library will be fully assessed, and I want to know perhaps if there's any indication of what portion of the additional $500,000 in budget will, in fact, go to the Pictou-Antigonish Regional Library?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I guess probably your mailbox is as full as mine is with letters about public libraries and, you know, we do have a formula in place that determines what funding goes to each of those boards. We have nine library boards, seventy-seven sites around the province, and the funding formula that is in place determines how that money is distributed. In my meetings with boards, and in the correspondence that I've received from them, it became very obvious that boards felt that they were underfunded, so as a result of that the Library Funding Task Force has been struck. They have started their work and they have been asked to come up with a memorandum of understanding, and that memorandum of understanding will also include a funding formula. I'm expecting that report to be to me in June, so in the meantime the allocation in the budget before us now is an additional $0.5 million which will be distributed based on the current funding formula.
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MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, the number of students being identified with autism is increasing, and it has been brought to my attention that resources are limited and help sometimes is slow in coming - how will your department better address this issue?
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, we recognize that we have increasing numbers of students coming to our schools every year who have autism or some learning disability. That number continues to grow and that's a challenge for us, and to try to meet that challenge our department is entering the third year of a four-year plan to respond to that. In 2005 we had hired a consultant at the provincial level and we have a provincial advisory team which looks at the nature of the disability, the best strategies for teachers to use, and we've identified some sites around the province and we're doing some professional development.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I can't hear the minister.
MS. CASEY: About 150 teachers have been in-serviced at this point in time. We need to make sure that our teachers are aware of the understanding of and the best way to respond to students with autism. So we have invested dollars over the last three years and, as I say, we're going into the third year of a four-year initiative, and trying to help our teachers be better prepared to receive these students.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, perhaps a working group would be helpful in that regard. In recent times there has been increasing emphasis on an early years study, integrated early childhood education - what is your department doing to encourage and to listen to organizations like Rural Voices for Early Childhood Education and Care?
[7:30 p.m.]
MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I will speak to the pre-Primary, which was our age four students. We had nineteen sites where we piloted a pre-Primary program. That was a three-year pilot, and at the end of that three years we recognized that catching these young learners early was an advantage and that the curriculum that we had prepared was helping them begin their formal learning early. We also recognized that there was something in that curriculum that we wanted to make available to all students in the province.
The 19 sites were voluntary; transportation was the responsibility of the parents and so it was not universal, it was not available to all students in the province. What we did was take the best out of that curriculum, include it in the Primary curriculum and do our change of entry date, so students who are four up until the end of December can be part of that formal public school program and take advantage of that early childhood curriculum that we found to be very valuable.
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MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, of course Rural Voices is interested in that almost from birth through to the four-year-old or five-year-old level and so on and we are hearing a lot from them in recent times.
A question in relationship to substitutes. Now first I want to say that I would be the last person in this House to say anything about a collective agreement, but I am just wondering how fair of a shake the te