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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: Mr. Chairman, would you call the estimates of the honourable Minister of Education.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park, if she so wishes to continue.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to resume the questioning that we had begun the other day about Education. It's a pleasure, again, to have the minister and her staff with us to answer some questions. Certainly the Department of Education is an enormous department. There's an awful lot of activity and so much to look at, everything from pre-Primary all the way through university, skills training and apprenticeship. So there's no shortage of questions to go on.

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I wanted to pick up today on one of the functions of the school boards and the Department of Education, and that's the transportation of students. Particularly, I want to look at it from my local area, being an urban riding. The distance that's set out provincially for busing of students is 3.6 kilometres from school. So any student living further than 3.6 kilometres is entitled to be bused to that school. But often in the city, there are a lot of dangers along the way, and I'm sure it's the same in rural areas where they have highways and whatnot to traverse.

What I had asked about a year ago, I had sent a letter to the Department of Education, asking that that level be reviewed in light of a particular case that had come up in my riding, where students had been bused and because a new street had opened up, and this happens in an unfolding and developing area, the distance to school had shortened, and students were no longer allowed to be bused under the Halifax Regional School Board.

I should note that even then the Halifax Regional School Board - and perhaps the minister is not aware of this - actually had their own policy which lowers the distance for busing to 2.4 kilometres for elementary students. So if a student is in Primary to Grade 6, they only need to live 2.4 kilometres from home, but that is something the Halifax Regional School Board had, over the years, agreed to accept and to pay the difference for.

My question, in the letter that I sent to the previous minister, was asking whether this could be reviewed and the distances shortened in light of a lot of urban and traffic concerns across the province. I'm wondering, could the minister speak to the busing distance and any intention the department may have of reviewing that?

HON. KAREN CASEY: Mr. Chairman, education of students and the safety of those students is a priority for me as minister and for our department and, indeed, for all boards. There have been some guidelines put in place with respect to the distances - you're well aware of those, the 3.6 kilometres and the 2.4 kilometres. We recognize that boards do use those as guidelines when they are developing their transportation routes and their allocation of dollars for transportation. We also recognize that in many boards across Nova Scotia, in particular in rural areas, that buses do pick up students who are within those distances, not beyond, and we consider that to be courtesy busing.

We know that that happens. So that, again, helps to provide that safe transportation to students who may fall outside of that 3.6 kilometres or 2.4 kilometres. So courtesy busing does exist, and that of course is dependent on the bus passing that particular area where that child lives, and also the availability of space on that bus. It is good news that most boards are able to provide that transportation.

With respect to the 3.6 kilometres and the 2.4 kilometres - in our election campaign, in the platform that our Premier put forward there was a commitment to do

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the review, to look at that to see if in fact we needed to make any recommendations for changes in that, but that was a commitment and I indicated yesterday in my introduction that we will be honouring the commitments that were made by the Premier during that campaign. So the short answer is yes, we will be doing that review, but I think it's important to note that safety is of utmost importance to all of us.

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could just clarify what the minister refers to as the guidelines. The 2.4 kilometres, I know that's being used by HRSB, but I'm wondering, is that something that's also written into the department's guidelines - I thought it was a question of the Halifax Regional School Board actually taking their own initiative to bring the distance down below the 3.6 kilometres that's mandated by the province - so I'd like to know, has the province a position on the 2.4 kilometres from home?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. You're correct, the 2.4 kilometres is something with HRM; however, we know that boards do have some leeway in the guidelines that they set within their own board. In most of rural Nova Scotia, I think you'll find that the boards have looked at 2.4 kilometres considering narrow roads, no sidewalks, and those kinds of things. It is at the board's discretion, that 2.4 kilometres, with the exception of HRM, where it is written.

MS. WHALEN: I thank the minister for that clarification, Mr. Chairman. What I'd like to ask as well on this subject is a bit about the guidelines again. Will the government come in with a hard and fast rule rather than just guidelines? I saw the rule actually in HRM, they do apply it in a very hard and fast way. They offer very little in the way of courtesy busing - maybe a very few exceptions. Generally speaking, particularly in an area like mine where the schools are very crowded and full, there is no courtesy busing provided and there's very little attention to parents' needs. I'd really like to see leadership from the provincial government to set some rules that will be a lot more responsive to the needs of families.

You're very well aware that often the schools start at unusual times in the day, sometimes very early or later and it's difficult for parents to work around that with their own work schedules - and it puts an awful lot of stress and strain on parents trying to arrange a safe arrival to school for their children. This became very clear to me when busing, which had been in place, was removed - just the kind of turmoil that it creates for families trying to find safe ways and still be able to go to work and earn a living and care for their families that way.

I wonder, could the minister indicate whether or not the intent is to lower the limits, and whether they will be hard and fast rules and not just guidelines for the individual school boards?

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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. The commitment that was made at the time of the election was to review the bus transportation criteria. The practice in the past has been that the department sets an upper limit, and boards work within that, but they cannot exceed that. Students, for example, cannot be walking more than 3.6 kilometres. Whether that 3.6 kilometres will change or not as a result of the review, I can't comment on that right now, but I do know that it is something that has to be considered. I also know that responsibility at the board level and concerns for safety have to be a priority. I would also suggest that parents work with their local boards, transportation officers, and officials at the local board level, and if there are unsafe conditions that can be identified and brought to the board's attention, school advisory councils are just one way of making that happen.

[12:45 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the minister a little bit about the department's position and role in the provision of lunch supervision for students at school. This is another issue that comes up frequently in every community, at least in this urban area where, again, the busing regulations are tied to the provision of lunch monitoring and the privilege of staying at school over the lunch hour. Again, going back to the quality of life for people in our communities, it certainly harms people who suddenly find themselves in a position where the lunch program is not available to them.

My own personal opinion is that lunch supervision should be available to families regardless of distance from school, simply because we live in a community where individual activities, like the provision of education and the need to support our families going to work, are not isolated, they're not two separate silos - we really need to listen to families as they struggle to work out their workday around school and school hours.

I mention, again, the unusual school hours. In my riding, one of the schools is dismissed at 2:20 in the afternoon - they're all finished for the afternoon. That certainly doesn't tie into a full day of education it would seem, but they have a shorter lunch hour and they start earlier in the morning. But it's very difficult to work all that around a schedule of employment, and I'm wondering, is there a department policy on the provision of supervision at lunch, or any move to review that?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. The supervision that's provided at schools for lunches comes in a variety of ways and means. It is a board responsibility. In some areas it's community groups that go in and volunteer to do the supervision; in other cases it's paid supervisors, paid by the board; and in some cases it's teachers who give their time to do that, and the money that would normally be paid to lunch hour supervisors goes into some kind of fund that those teachers identify. So it comes in a variety of ways, but it is the responsibility of boards, and it is the responsibility of boards

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to provide that supervision for students who are bused to their schools. Those are the guidelines that they would be using.

We recognize that sometimes school hours are not convenient for parents, but issues with respect to school hours are certainly done in connection with all of the school hours within a particular board, and how that works best in their busing operation. The short answer is lunch hour supervision is the responsibility of the boards and it is provided for any students who are bused.

MS. WHALEN: Just in closing on that subject, I'd simply say that there are an awful lot of students who fall between the cracks in that system, and that we need a little bit more direction, I think, to the school boards on how that's handled. It sounds like there's a lot of room for flexibility, but it also sounds like a mishmash of different programs are in place.

I'd like to move on to the question of special education and, specifically, tuition agreements. Not long ago, at the Public Accounts Committee, we had a discussion on special education. I am very interested in the department's response to the need to extend tuition agreements beyond two years for the students who qualify - those are students who have been approved for essentially a subsidy from the Province of Nova Scotia - the money that would otherwise be spent on their per-student allocation in a school board is now being given to the parents to redirect to one of just several schools that have been named as proper places for training of students who have certain learning disabilities, and the parents I'm speaking to, who have now completed their second year of the tuition agreements, I believe, are very concerned that the program in place was only to go for two years.

I'd like to think that that was a pilot project and that in fact you may revisit it and extend that service, because students are thriving now in these schools where otherwise they were floundering and lost and just simply falling between the cracks. Parents recognize that they simply weren't getting the education they need in the regular system. So I'd like to know the minister's response to tuition agreements and where they're headed.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. Special needs students do make up a small percentage of our population, and it's our intent to provide the best possible program we can for them. There are times when it's deemed that that cannot be delivered at the school level. In consultation with the parents, we do look at providing support for those students to attend another institution. Hopefully that intense training and one-on-one instruction that students get in those other schools will close the gap, and that student can be re-entered into the public school system.

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The tuition at this point, prior to this year, was for two years. We did extend that in this budget - pending approval of this budget - for a third year. We also recognize that the amount of time that any student requires with this intervention does vary on an individual basis. The goals that have been set for those students and the time for intervention varies. In consultation with parents and with those providing the service, and with our staff at the department, we would look at when it's time to have that student re-enter the public schools. It may be six months, it may be one year, two years, and for some students it's three years - and that's why we're extending that to the third year.

If, in fact, there's a student in that third year, when that review takes place, through consultation it will be determined then whether the readiness level for that student to re-enter has been achieved. If it has not, we would be looking at continuing support for that student. But that's done on an individual basis, and it's done on an ongoing basis to move towards that re-enter date as the student is ready.

MS. WHALEN: One thing I would say is there's quite a significant percentage of students in our school system that have special needs. I'm unable to provide the figure, but the minister suggested it's only a small percentage of students with special needs, and we have a fairly significant percentage in our schools - I would hazard a guess of perhaps 15 per cent or more who have special needs.

Now only a small number of those are going into the tuition agreement programs and, again, remember, when a parent chooses that, even with the support that comes from the Department of Education, under this program they still have to find about an equal amount of money to pay the tuition at one of these private schools that are designed specifically for people with learning disabilities. The tuition is over $10,000 a year at all of those schools - and quite a bit more at Landmark East in the Valley - so it's still a very big contribution by the parents.

The other thing I'd like to mention is that the students who are taken from the public system and diverted to the other schools, where they are thriving, are also saving money for the Department of Education because you no longer need the intense one-on-one or the extra resources in the school system to help that student. So it's really a win-win situation. I want to say I'm thankful to hear that a third year is included in the budget. I wasn't aware of that, and I think that's good news for all those families that have been concerned about this.

What I would like to clarify from the minister's response, and maybe I just missed it, I just want to clarify, after the third year, is that when it becomes a case by case? Is that the new policy, that students will be evaluated and, when they are ready to return, they'll be reintegrated into the school system? So how are we proceeding beyond the third year - that really is my question.

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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. Just to clarify an earlier point that I made with respect to the number of students who will receive support, I think we have to be cautious and make sure that we're speaking with the right language and we're all believing the same definition of that language. We look at about 20 per cent of our students who receive some kind of support in our schools, we would not identify those as special- needs students, but we have about 20 per cent of our population that gets some support through resource, Reading Recovery and so on - we have about 4 per cent of our population. So I think your numbers are pretty consistent with ours, but just to clarify, it's 20 per cent that receive support, but only about 4 per cent of our students are on individual programs - so to clarify that.

Then the second part of the question. The consultation as to the re-entry is done on an individual basis and it's ongoing. I think I mentioned earlier that it may be determined that at the end of six months that student is able to re-enter, it may be at the end of two years, it may be at the end of three years. So the individual consultation on the re-entry of a student is ongoing.

With respect to the third year, when the student is into their third year, and we know that with this budget that would be the end of the tuition agreement, we would be in consultation with the educators and with the parents to see if more than three years is required, it would be done at that point when we do the consultation. So we're not saying no to anything beyond three years, but we are saying it will be part of a decision made during the consultation.

MS. WHALEN: I'm sure we'll have the opportunity to talk more about that at another occasion, but I appreciate the direction that the department is going. I would like to ask a little bit again around - you mentioned reading resource and so on, Reading Recovery - I would like to ask the minister whether the department is looking at one of the programs known as Spell Read, which is a program, a method of teaching children to read more proficiently. A lot of parents, including parents in my neighbourhood and my community, have come to me and they've looked for help in order to get their children into the Spell Read Program which, at present, is a private tutoring facility. It costs, I think, about $5,000 to have your children go through that program, but the results have been very, very promising, and any family I know who has gone there has been very, very pleased.

There's certainly an opportunity, and in the United States they've been looking at Spell Read as part of their initiative in the school system. I'm wondering, is there any way or at any time that the government might be looking at Spell Read as a pilot project somewhere within our own public system so that we can find out if, in fact, it's working so well, maybe it can help a lot of our own students who are struggling with literacy?

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MS. CASEY: Mr Chairman, to the member. Spell Read, or any other kind of intervention support program that can help students in our public school system is something that we need to take a look at. Spell Read is one example, and staff are telling me that approximately six months ago some discussions, conversations began with respect to that program. Our language arts consultants are looking at it. If it is deemed to be something that we can work with, and that they can work within our school system, we would certainly be having some recommendations, and report from that. I'm pleased to say that those discussions have already started and, again, if this will provide the supports that are needed for our students, and our consultants are on line with that, we would be pleased to further that discussion and perhaps implementation.

MS. WHALEN: Thank you very much. I'm glad to see that that is at least being reviewed, because I can say that from the parents I have spoken to they have been very, very pleased with the results, and I don't think it should be limited to those who have the resources to afford that on a private basis - so a pilot project of some sort might be an ideal way to test it in the school system.

I wanted to move quickly to the area of post-secondary education and just look at the memorandum of understanding that's in place between the province and the universities. In that MOU, one of the things that the universities had asked for was that the amount of money being given each year to them at the end of the year in appropriations - which is kind of parallel to what we talked about yesterday around public libraries where you have a budget for public libraries and then there seems to be a pattern that at the end of the year an additional $1 million, or $1.2 million in the case of the libraries, is made available to the library system, but they can't count on it early in the year and they can't budget for it because they're never exactly sure, and the same thing was an issue around the university funding, where they had a strict amount in the budget and then were sort of led to believe each year that more would be available at the end of the year.

One year - I think it was two years ago - there was $190 million in the budget and then a $10 million appropriation was given at the end of the year to bring them up to about $200 million. The universities had asked that this practice stop and that the amount that is budgeted for annually be fixed, and that way they can plan better and use the funds in a more efficient manner, use it in the best way possible, rather than scrambling at the end of the year, which is something that throughout government, I must say - and this is perhaps my accountant's hat coming on - it's a very bad practice to have a lot of mad spending at the end of a fiscal year when you haven't had a chance to properly plan and program that spending. We see it in every department, and we see it in a lot of big organizations, where at the end of the year trying to spend your budget or extra surpluses being distributed means really poor spending patterns.

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[1:00 p.m.]

So the universities asked that to stop and it was supposed to be enshrined in the MOU that that would be the case. I wonder if the minister could refer to that practice. Thank you.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the memorandum of understanding with the universities is a signed agreement, and the amounts of money that are to be allocated are identified and each year we have made a commitment to that. The practice you're talking about should not interfere with their planning because they are well aware of the allocation they're going to receive. What happens is that it's almost like an advance on their next year's funding that they get, so it doesn't take away from the allocation that they would be expecting and it doesn't take away from their ability to plan and budget within that - it simply means that they get that advance from their next year's at that time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time for the member has expired.

The honourable member for Pictou East.

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. A very good friend, Robert Chisholm, who is well known to this House, was in the antechamber and wanted to speak to me for a moment, so I do apologize.

I have a series of questions, Mr. Chairman, and I understand I have to share the time with a number of others, so I hope the minister will, in fact, give me an ear on a few of these questions outside of this Chamber.

First, I would like to compliment the department and compliment the minister for some of the pilot projects that are, in fact, taking place in Nova Scotia at this time. One in particular, I understand, is the first east of the Eastern Townships, and that is a computer per student in the classroom. This has been done in my constituency of Pictou East; it has been done at a Grade 4 level.

It's my understanding that in jurisdictions where this has been done for a considerable period of time, like in Chicago, there has been a tremendous increase in literacy and numeracy. I'm asking the minister whether there are intentions of expanding this one laptop, it's one laptop per student, and I believe the results on the initial trial have been great.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. One of my responsibilities prior to my retirement was in the area of technology. So I have a keen interest in that, and I recognize the value that that adds to instruction and learning. We have embarked, as a department, on a pilot, and as with all pilots, there is a monitoring and an evaluation

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component, and that is underway for that particular pilot. We are into the second year of that pilot, so the monitoring and outcomes and comments from parents, teachers and students will form a part of that assessment of that pilot. So it's a beginning, but in an age of technology in which we all live, and our students are more familiar with calculators and computers at age five than most of us are now, I don't think we can do anything but continue to move forward in that.

MR. MACKINNON: On that particular question, I should also congratulate the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board for being the willing recipient of that new technology as well.

The role of teacher assistants is vital to our education system, and where there are multiple students in a classroom needing teacher assistants, is the department developing some kind of a ratio or formula in respect to this matter? There are a number of classrooms that do, in fact, have multiple needs with only one teacher assistant.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. Teacher assistants are just another example of supports that we provide for our students and, indeed, for our teachers in the classroom. At the school level and at the board level, there is an ongoing assessment of student needs and what we need to do as a board or as a department to provide supports. One of the ways of doing that is through teacher assistants, and we do provide the funding to boards to provide that service. You're very correct, there may be more than one student within a classroom who does need the supports. If those supports can be provided by one additional body in the room, then that would be done, but if they cannot be, then we have no objection to - and we know we do have classrooms where there's more than one TA in the classroom at all times.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. I would like to ask the minister what is being done to encourage, sort of the vo-tech ,or the Options and Opportunities - O2, as it's called - what is being done to expand this very important aspect of education? It's an area where some students get hands-on experience in important mechanical and technical life functions. This doesn't infringe in any way on the Nova Scotia Community College system. In fact, it assists, rather than crossing over into the NSCC roles. So I'm wondering, is there anything being done to more fully recognize this? I don't think it's fully recognized in some jurisdictions. I'm getting concerns about this and certainly I have a responsibility to bring the concerns of Pictou East to this House and that is one of them.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, we recognize there are many students who are not university bound and should not be university bound. They have an interest, an aptitude and a desire to work in the trades. We have a responsibility to make sure we provide some kind of support and training for them as they go through our public school system.

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To that end, the O2 - Options and Opportunities - initiative that is in our budget this year does begin to address that need. We are doing it by a phase-in program. We are looking at 27 schools in the 2006-07 school year and that will continue to grow. To begin with there will be schools in each board and we will be working with the parents, students and teachers to get feedback on those so we can take some direction as to what needs to be added or modified with respect to that program. It's a good news program, it does address a need, it does provide support, direction and training for a population that otherwise we may not serve well. I'm very pleased with that program but we will be monitoring it very closely, and there are, as I said, 27 schools that have been selected across the province to give us a fair representation.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, to the minister, is there a breakdown of the numbers to the Chignecto-Central board?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, yes there is, and I would be pleased to share that not only with respect to Chignecto-Central, but perhaps I could share it with all boards because I'm sure all members are interested in what's happening in their particular board. Please remember that this is the beginning, these are the first 27, next year we'll be adding more.

In Annapolis Valley Regional School Board we have Horton High School, Central Kings Rural High School, Northeast Kings Education Centre and Middleton Regional High School. In Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board we have Breton Education Centre and Cabot High School. In Chignecto-Central Regional School Board we have Oxford Regional High School, Hants North Rural High School and South Colchester Academy. In CSAP we have École secondaire de Par-en-Bas, and École secondaire de Clare.

In Halifax Regional School Board we have Sir John A. Macdonald High School, Sackville High School, Queen Elizabeth High School, St. Patrick's High School, J.L. Ilsley High School, Charles P. Allen High School, Lockview High School and Auburn Drive High School. In South Shore Regional School Board we have New Germany Rural High School, Forest Heights Community School and Liverpool Regional High School. In Strait Regional School Board we have St. Mary's Academy, Cape Breton Highlands Academy-Education Centre and Dr. John Hugh Gillis Regional School. And in Tri-County Regional School Board we have Digby Regional High School and Barrington Municipal High School.

That is the beginning, but it's not the end.

MR. MACKINNON: I want to commend the minister for the expansion of this program and I hope it is even expanded beyond the 27. I'm pleased with some of the positive responses that I've gotten from this minister, unlike some responses I've gotten

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in some other areas. One last question if I could, and I have many more of them, as everyone knows there is such a massive number of teachers that have retired because of the indexing and those retirees have every right, they have every right to substitute. However, I want to make a statement, and this is nothing reflected at those retirees whatsoever. We have a serious out-migration in Pictou County. It is the second highest out-migration of 18- to 24-year olds, and many other age categories.

My question is, is there any way of coming up with a blend of substitution that certainly includes the retirees, but also the recent graduates and those who are living away in other provinces and would really like to get home? The question is - and this is not stepping on retirees whatsoever, I want to make that 100 per cent clear - is the department able to do anything to ensure that the ratio of substitution reflects a fair balance between retirees and others? In saying that, the retirees in many cases, in most cases, they're still relatively young and all of them are very, very capable and certainly will make excellent substitutes. However, my question is, is there some way of reflecting a fair balance between the retirees and others?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. As a retired teacher, the opportunity to substitute certainly didn't fit into my plan; however, there are many teachers who have many, many years of experience and who are willing and able to contribute back to the public school system, and in many cases principals are encouraged and pleased to have substitute teachers return and do work in their schools - they are familiar with the school, they are familiar with the curriculum, and they are just a great asset. So we will find that many teachers do come back and do substituting within the guidelines for their employment.

[1:15 p.m.]

However, we also recognize that our goal is to attract the young graduates, and to employ the young graduates. We want our young people who are trained here as teachers to stay here and contribute to our public education system. One of the things that we do is the job fair and the early hire, which allows us to get out, allows boards to get out and have young graduates, who will be graduating in that Spring, come to a job fair and boards do what they call "an early hire" particularly in areas where there is some concern for qualified teachers - that would be your high school math, sciences and your French immersion kind of teachers. So boards can do early hires with these graduates, and we're finding that many of them do take advantage of that because they do want to stay here.

So our goal is to encourage those young people to stay and, if we have vacancies available, boards advertise those. They're on the Internet, so they're across the country, and that is intended to invite and encourage those who have gone away to come back home.

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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, 10 minutes really isn't enough time to deal with all of the problems and the issues and the concerns that I have, as a member of this House, drawn to my attention in education. I have a very limited period of time, so I'm going to focus on an issue that I'm hoping I can get some clarity on, from the minister and the department, that might help me deal with all of those other concerns that I have.

I want to start by telling the minister - she's a new member - that prior to the amalgamation of school boards here in metro, the Halifax School Board had designated a number of small elementary schools, within their board, as inner-city schools. There were four inner-city schools and, of those four schools, three of them are in the constituency of Halifax Needham, and they're wonderful small schools. Joseph Howe in particular, called after a former premier, is a very interesting small school, and it has had some graduates of distinction come out of that school, including George Elliott Clarke.

Kids who go to the inner-city schools - and the reason these schools were designated as inner-city schools was because, quite often, the kids came from single, female-led households, very modest and low incomes, maybe low educational attainment on the part of the parents, African Nova Scotian learners, who, many themselves, had come through maybe a segregated school system. So these children start off with many disadvantages, in many respects, and they will continue to be disadvantaged unless school boards and the Department of Education take the necessary steps to provide the additional supports and resources to help these kids succeed; and they can succeed, and they must succeed. If they don't, we all fail.

Over the years I have done my utmost to get from the board, the now amalgamated board, information on measurements on outcomes for these schools. I've attempted to engage in a conversation around suspensions. I've attempted to find out more about the turnover among staff, principals and teaching staff, the placing of staff in those schools who come from African Nova Scotian backgrounds, so that the children have good role models and people who will understand many of the challenges that people face who have had to live in a society that has racism.

I have to tell you, I and many people in my community are really concerned about the lack of information we get and the accountability that goes with the provision of information. As recently as two weeks ago I attended a graduation at one of these schools where there's also a junior high. There were five kids on the stage, there were 11 kids in the Grade 9 class, and we tried to make that event a positive event for those five children, but it was a challenge. I go to all of the junior high graduations in my riding. I see such a quantitative and qualitative difference.

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I'm basically at the end of my rope now, this is why I'm taking this here to you. I spoke with one of the senior administrators for the board requesting an opportunity to sit down and talk about some of these concerns. I was told that there is no protocol for a member of the Legislature to meet with people who work in the school boards to have these discussions. Moreover, I was questioned about whether these concerns were my personal concerns, or were they the concerns of families and people who reside in my constituency.

I'm raising this issue because if that's the treatment I get from senior administration, bureaucrats, public servants, then can you imagine the response that parents without power and voice get? I have these concerns brought to me regularly, and I've had enough. I want to know, what is the accountability mechanism from the government and the Department of Education for senior administration in school boards? I believe the public has had enough.

I've been a member of this Chamber now for eight years, and there are three things that consistently are brought up with me around education. They are supplementary funding, the big fight between HRM and the board every year, they are about board accountability, and not the elected members - I have an elected school board member, Miss Kim Berkers , who is delightful to work with. She has as much difficulty getting information as I do, and she's an elected member on that board. Go figure. So I want to know, what is the Department of Education's position with respect to board accountability, and what are these protocols that I have never heard about in terms of being able to sit down and have a conversation about concerns that an elected person has on behalf of their constituents and kids who live in their constituencies? Can you clarify that for me, please, Madam Minister?

MS. CASEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. I have to confess, I don't know what protocols you are talking about either. I will commit to you that if there is a concern that you have and you have been denied access, we want to know about that. We believe in accountability. Parents should feel comfortable and, in most cases, do feel comfortable going in and speaking with their teachers or with the administration at the school. I'm not sure of the particulars of the situation, but I certainly would welcome an opportunity to sit down with you and get the particulars.

If there is an issue that you have, as the representative in that particular area, or those schools in that particular board, your first line of communication, as you know, would be at the school level. If there is no satisfaction at that point, then you go up to the next level. If you're telling me that you have gone through those levels and with no satisfaction, then my door is open. I would welcome an opportunity to sit down with you.

MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you very much. I very much appreciate this because sometimes I can't even get a response at any level, even a phone call, or a

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letter responded to. I have now hit the boiling point. When you really see problems that are not being addressed in a school and you just want to have a conversation about that, it's unfortunate that it comes here - I think in some ways one of my concerns is that sooner or later the high schools here in metro are going to be amalgamated. With a new school, a much larger school, there is a fear in parts of my constituency that young people coming out of a couple of our schools are going to be lost and sidelined and that the foundational work isn't being laid to really look at what their needs are going to be and how they're going to be addressed in this new sort of super high school, big high school.

Which brings me to the point I think that my colleague, the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank was trying to make with respect to Black learners when he was speaking about Vice-Principal Wade Smith's public comments earlier in this year when he was talking about the need to explore any kind of alternative for Black learners, including an Afrocentric school.

I want to say, I know Mr. Smith. He is so respected, and he is so supported in the community that I represent, as an individual and as an educator. He is somebody who cares deeply about all of his students. I think he teaches English, and he teaches African-Canadian-North American writers, and a Black studies kind of English course. I know students, it doesn't make any difference what their background or their ethnicity, who take that course, they absolutely adore him and respect him. I have been in the school system, so when he raises the flag that there is a problem, I pay attention, because so many people respect and know his work and know how dedicated he is.

I'm really concerned that we're able to get the attention of the department and of the Halifax Regional School Board to take seriously the concerns that come out of the inner-city school community, the parents, the staff, and people like Vice-Principal Smith, and actually address that.

I want to ask the minister, because I found her responses quite general, I would not go so far as to say evasive, but they were very general in response to my colleague, the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank. The concerns that Mr. Smith raised, I think should have sent a flag up for the department that it can't be business as usual with respect to the provision of services.

So following the concerns that he raised, I want to know, what initiative did the department take to sit down with Mr. Smith, and with other people who have the expertise and the front-line contact and the knowledge of what the frustrations are, to really move forward with trying to address these things? What concrete steps are being planned to deal with the frustrations of Black educators and Black learners and their families and their communities? What's being done to prepare for this new high school and the large numbers of students, where the kids from the inner city are going to be a

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very small population? We don't want them to be marginalized and sidelined in their education, they deserve far better than that.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. I detect a number of questions in that. I'll try to answer some of them, and I'll try not to be evasive or non-committal.

With respect to the amalgamation of schools. Whenever schools are consolidated from two or three smaller schools into a larger one, there is really an important step that has to take place long before the school students ever move to that new building. I would anticipate, I would hope that that process has already started with respect to those schools that are going to amalgamate. That process includes the school advisory councils, it includes the administration, it includes the teachers, it includes the parents, and very often activities for the students from both school bodies, if it's two or three, where they can come together.

[1:30 p.m.]

I know from experience in the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board that in Pictou County we did take high school students from five schools and consolidated them into two. There were fears in those communities, just like there are in yours, and there were diverse populations there that had to be accommodated. The leadership on that particular initiative, in that particular board, was taken by the administrations in the schools that were being consolidated, but it was a very thought-out and well-planned series of events that would take place so that that coming together of both the parent community and the school community and the teacher staff was as smooth and as easy as possible.

I don't know if that has happened in this particular community, but I certainly can find out. If it hasn't, we would be encouraging the board to make sure that they and their staff started that process, because opening the door in September and having kids come together is not the way for them to be introduced, one to another. So that particular concern is something I think we can work toward.

And before I leave that - that would include representation from any diverse group of learners who was there. I would expect, I would hope that that group is represented on the student council and on the school advisory council, because they are important players. Students on the student council can often give excellent advice to teachers as to how that integration can take place. So I would hope that that population is represented on both of those bodies.

With respect to the initiatives in some of the inner-city schools - within our budget we have looked at some specifics, literacy projects in five of those schools. I

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believe it would include, and I'm not sure of the names, but I believe it would include the schools that you're referring to. That's in our budget for this year. We're also looking - it wouldn't be at that particular level, but it would be for that population - identifying some skills and apprentice-kind of opportunities for them as they get older, and also expanding the bursaries for students as they go through their university.

So those are some of the things that are just in our budget this year which, we believe, will begin to address some of the concerns that exist. We're not dismissing the fact, we know the concerns are there and we know we have a responsibility to try to address them. So those are some of the initial steps we are taking.

With respect to a comment that you made in an earlier question, but I think it applies here as well, the assessments, the scores, the data that comes from assessments that are done, if it's elementary it would be at the Grade 3 and the Grade 6 levels, and that data is available at the school level, it's available at the board level, it's available at our department level, and it's public information. The comparisons of that data gives you a pretty good picture of whether what's happening in the school is working or not. So I would, again, welcome the opportunity to review that data. That's probably the best way we have of determining do we continue what we're doing or do we try something else. So the data's there to show the picture. Once we know what the picture is, we can look toward resources and services that will help those students.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Queens.

MS. VICKI CONRAD: I have two questions. I will begin with the first question and then I'll wait for the response and then move on to my second question. I understand from the minister's comments, yesterday, that consultants will be available in the schools to promote and raise awareness for students around healthy lifestyles. I think this is a very good thing. Certainly our young people are constantly being barraged with mixed messages about what healthy lifestyles actually look like. That being said, I'm hoping that the consultants who will be in the school system will be looking at the whole healthy lifestyle of individuals. You know, sometimes we tend to think of healthy lifestyles as being physical education and making healthy food choices when our students are in school and out of school when they're making choices for their food at lunch time.

One of my concerns around the whole healthy lifestyle for students, many of our schools have a real serious problem with youth, especially in the junior high age group where students are making bad healthy choices. We have some schools that are over-riddled with drug use, and also risky sexual behaviour which sometimes happens on the school grounds. I'm not suggesting that this is an issue for the Department of Education; however, risky lifestyle choices that students are making while they're in the education system certainly does affect their ability to learn in a safe and healthy environment.

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I guess my question is, the consultants going into the schools, what type of healthy lifestyle messages are they going to be delivering to our students? Will it be messages for the whole healthy awareness for students? Also, I'd like to know what the process is for contracting out these consultants. Will they be contracted through the Department of Education or will these consultants come from consulting with the Department of Health? Once these consultants are in place, I'm asking just what types of time frames they will be giving to the school system. Will they be part-time consultants coming in once a week, once a month? Will they be offering class time instruction for healthy lifestyles, or will there be sessions that will be available to students if they so wish to participate? Also, with that process too, what type of system is going to be in place to measure the outcomes of having consultants in the school system raising awareness around healthy lifestyle issues?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, I want to clarify in the beginning that the introduction of the consultants at each board - it's not a pilot, it's something that we have recognized a need and so we are beginning the process. Pilots could have a short life, but this one we're not expecting will have a short life. We recognize the need.

I spoke yesterday about putting guidance people into schools at the elementary Grades 3 to 6, and boards will have flexibility and we will direct to boards the flexibility that they have so if the need is at a junior high level, there will be some flexibility. They can take some of those resources and some of those staff and put them in junior high.

We believe we have a good system in place for guidance at the high school. We recognize that we needed something at the elementary and we recognize that we need something at the junior high, so we're trying to close that gap between elementary and secondary. Junior high is a critical age for students and they are making some decisions and choices, and unfortunately some of them are not always the best choices. So we recognize that.

With respect to the structure, there will be a provincial coordinator and they will be working with the consultants which we have allocated funds to each board to hire that consultant. The model we're looking at is the consultant would be working with the teachers at the board level. It would be perhaps not direct consultation between the consultant and the student, but rather the consultant working with teachers to give them strategies they can use, because most of the learning in elementary and junior high, in particular, takes place on a daily basis between the student and the teacher. You go into a class for healthy lifestyles and then you go on to something else. It's integrated into the delivery of all of the subjects.

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So what does it include? It does include additional physical activity. It will be a focus on human sexuality, also on healthy foods and healthy lifestyles. Those are just three of the components of that, but it is to develop the whole child.

MS. CONRAD: In my community, we have a small rural school, Mill Village Consolidated School. It's a P-6 school environment. Mill Village Consolidated has been on the chopping block for closure for the last 10 years or so. We have had several elementary schools in the riding of Queens close out over the last several years.

The first time the school was on the chopping block was when I still had young children in the school system. I was one of the many parents who rallied around with the rest of the community and the teachers to advocate for our school to remain open. There is a strong community and a strong parent support group that still exists today and we have been fighting consistently over the last several years to ensure our school remains open.

Like all schools, our school is the heart of our community. It is the first environment for our young children, our young learners. They experience for the first time away from home that welcoming environment. Certainly we look at our community school as being that welcoming environment. It's really comforting to know that our young students are so close to home. They get very much one-on-one instruction from teachers. Parents are very committed to raising funds for the school throughout the year to maintain some of the luxuries the school and the children enjoy over the years.

I'm asking the minister, what assurances can you give to small community schools such as Mill Village Consolidated that you will support us in our endeavours to see this school does remain open and does remain the heart of our community?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, the whole passion of small schools exists across the province. What we need to do is recognize what's in the best interests of students as far as their education and what's in the best interests of the communities, when that whole issue is reviewed. As you know, there is a review that will begin in the Fall. I would encourage you and others in your community to take advantage of the opportunity to present before that review committee, and as you will know, the whole business of school closures and studies that have been taking place in three of our boards have been put on hold until that review is completed. I'm expecting a report from that committee early in 2007.

It will be a short study, but it will be across the province and it will provide opportunity for consultation and input and I would encourage you. We want to hear from small communities during that process so that all of that input can be considered, before any recommendations or changes to legislation might be considered.

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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.

MR. KEVIN DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to take the time that I have to talk about a couple of issues, one of which I think the deputy minister can guess. I'll start with a question with regard to the new capital project construction schedule. It was in 2005 that the government had sent a letter to the Halifax Regional School Board, I assume all the school boards, asking for a list of school priorities, and I know there has been some betwixt and between. I was just wondering, can I get on the record when the minister expects Cabinet to review and she will be announcing the next level of capital school projects, particularly for the Halifax Regional School Board?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, I've just been advised by my deputy that that list will be going to Cabinet in the Fall.

[1:45 p.m.]

MR. DEVEAUX: Thank you. So I understand it's going to Cabinet in the Fall. When would we be expecting some form of announcement, in November, January? I understand these are fluid numbers, but if I can get some sense of it, it would be appreciated.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, the timeline for any kind of an announcement will depend on how much debate there is at Cabinet. (Laughter)

MR. DEVEAUX: You know, the Minister of Education learns quickly. I suspect that the person next to her, who has experience probably answering these questions in the past in one form or another, has been very good at giving her advice.

I do want to, for the record, make a point about the fact - and it's funny, because you hear questions from other members about school closures and so on, I guess my community faces the alternative to that. It's 13,000 people. Larger than Truro, larger than Amherst, larger than Glace Bay. In a couple of years, there will be 15,000 people in Eastern Passage. We have 600 students who are going, or are currently bused out of the community. It will be 750 students in a matter of two years, and yet we don't have a high school. (Applause)

This is an issue that particularly grates on the nerves of the people of Eastern Passage/Cow Bay and Shearwater. It is the largest community by far in Nova Scotia that does not have its own high school. We bus those students out, in fact, I would argue that with the cost of busing that there would actually be money saved if you built a high school over the long period.

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So I do want to make the point before I sit down that I know there's a project the Halifax Regional School Board has presented to you, revised, has made that clear that they have presented, I think, a business plan that does result in a reasonable approach to that by 2011, there would be a high school for the people of Eastern Passage. I think it's important that that be put on the record.

Now, I want to turn to a separate issue, Mr. Chairman, which is the issue of supplementary funding, which is the other issue that grates on the nerves of the people of Eastern Passage. I know the minister coming from outside of Halifax may be new to the issue, but this is a very important issue because back in 1995, when we passed the Education Act, the Province of Nova Scotia said it was okay for the former City of Dartmouth and the former City of Halifax to continue to impose the supplementary funding, but the former county can't do that. So what we've resulted in, I've seen in the school system - let me step back a second.

The fact that 10 years after amalgamation of the school board, we still talk about former county, former Dartmouth, former Halifax, is a shame. What we have as a result is a two-tier, if not a three-tier education system. We have a system in Halifax where they get sort of the Cadillac, with the extra funding they collect. In Dartmouth, we have what I would consider probably the Buick or the Oldsmobile, if they still make them, and then in the county we've got the jalopy.

Frankly, of all the places in Nova Scotia that are getting underfunded, it's the former County of Halifax in the Halifax Regional School Board. I think the largest percentage of students in the Halifax Regional School Board live in the former county and the Town of Bedford, and yet they are legally not allowed to provide supplementary funding because the Province of Nova Scotia refuses to amend the legislation to reflect that challenge.

The problem, Mr. Chairman, is that in the Halifax Regional School Board, former county, we get nothing. We get very few services. While if I drive across what is a fictitious border from the county into Dartmouth or into Halifax, they are getting a lot of services. I would be remiss if I didn't stand in this House and put on the record that as residents of Halifax Regional Municipality and students who attend Halifax Regional School Board schools, the former county students are being neglected.

I guess my question to the minister is, when is the province going to admit that the concept of supplementary funding for the former City of Halifax and the former City of Dartmouth, but not allowing it for the former Halifax County and the Town of Bedford, is causing a schism in our education system that has resulted in the students in the former county and the Town of Bedford not getting the same quality education as the students in the two cities?

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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. My answer will probably be shorter than the question, partly because the supplementary funding is something I'm being brought up to speed on, but I do recognize that it is an arrangement, an agreement between the municipality and the school board. We would welcome any kind of a proposal that would look at a more equitable distribution of supplementary funding across those three previous boards that have now become amalgamated.

MR. DEVEAUX: Can the minister say for the record, can she admit for the record that the whole system was created - you can admit it was the former government, that's fine, I have no problem putting that on the record - but can you at least admit that this whole problem has been created and is still in place because there's a clause in the Municipal Government Act that results in this two-tier system?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. Again, another short answer. I recognize that there is a joint committee that's reviewing this and I'm not prepared to make any statement about why or why not that decision was made at the time of amalgamation, but I will make a statement that I'm not prepared to see an equitable distribution of funds to our students.

MR. DEVEAUX: Will the minister admit that it's that clause in the Municipal Government Act that is part of the problem?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. If the clause in the Municipal Government Act to which you reference does restrict the use of supplementary funding, then it does contribute to an inequitable distribution.

MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that answer, for the record, and I will pass my time over to the member for Halifax Atlantic.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.

MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to ask the minister a couple of questions. I guess I would like to preface it by saying that throughout this we keep on hearing about school communities and so on. There's a great deal of fondness for small schools, local schools, to the degree that a community represents common ground that's often geography, but we also find a series of other things that need to be regarded in reference to that.

There is a series of communities in a school. One of those that I found myself involved with, somewhat inadvertently, was the day as a parent I had my own MSN moment - I'm sure people can imagine what's involved with that - and I began realizing as I spoke to other parents, as I queried whether or not it was true that everybody does in fact decide to go out at 11:00 p.m. and meet on a street corner, sort of just by some

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magic that happens in the air, but all members of a certain school community that they all decide to meet on a given playground, as I began querying other parents and realizing they weren't part of that "everybody", they weren't informed, I realized that a couple of the communities that exist in the school are, in fact, virtual communities. I'm wondering, what has the province to say and intend to say at a broad policy level about the existence of what is sometimes referred to as electronic bullying?

I have heard numerous, numerous stories of children who are being harassed, even from school computers, in their homes or in their schools. There's no denying there is a connection between the community and the school. What does the province see as the solution?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. I spoke earlier about the advantages to having technology in our schools, recognizing that that potential exists for the misuse of that technology, if we can call it that. The boards have been asked to put in place and enforce very closely and very rigidly an Internet use policy, and all boards do have that in place. It's monitored to the best of the boards' and staffs' ability.

Is that good enough? Obviously it's not catching all of the misuse of the Internet. We would be concerned about a misuse in our schools, and what happens with respect to communication on the Internet outside of our schools is very difficult and practically impossible for school boards to monitor - but activity that takes place in the school is what we have our policy structured and designed to address and to protect students from the misuse of that.

MS. RAYMOND: Thank you, and I do appreciate that it's a very difficult situation to monitor. I guess having had the experience of individual boards, and individual schools in boards, being asked to develop their own policies around issues which are sometimes quite uniform - I'm really wondering whether the province does not see that it has a role in designing a framework for acceptable Internet use. I'd also like to comment that although these things may be taking place partly outside the school, they often have their root in the school.

MS. CASEY: I would repeat that boards do have their own policy. They are cognizant of the fact that there is misuse. They are implementing that policy, as I said, as best they can under sometimes very difficult circumstances, because access to the technology can be under the desk or around the corner and it's very difficult to monitor all of that. But there are certainly some outcomes and some repercussions for the misuse of the equipment or the violation of that policy; in fact it can lead to, and has led to, suspension and charges with law enforcement.

So it is an issue, it's something we're aware of, and we're aware that it is increasing. It may cause us to look at something more stringent within our school boards

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- allowing the technology to be used as it was intended, but stopping the misuse, and that's the dilemma.

MS. RAYMOND: I certainly do appreciate that. I'm not sure that necessarily more stringent needs to be the case, perhaps more structured, because I would suggest that probably the department is in a better position to offer at least a framework for acceptable use of technology, given that it is constantly changing and doesn't really vary from board to board.

Moving from that, however, to another issue sort of surrounding communities. There has been a great deal of concern about the future of French immersion programming and given that the federal government has in the past established that it has a goal of doubling the number of French-speaking graduates by the year 2013 - that's only seven years from now - I'm just wondering, what is the province doing in terms of funding to ensure that the graduates leaving schools deemed competent in French are, in fact, doubled in number?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, the assessment for students who are going through the French Immersion Program and the competency of graduates is, I believe, the question. We are developing - have not yet, but are in the process of developing - an assessment that will be administered at the Grade 9 level. That will be the beginning of our attempt to look at the outcomes and the success of our students at certain stages along the development, and along their educational program. I've just been advised that the development of that assessment is underway. I can't give you a date for implementation of that, but it is a beginning and it will be the beginning of a number of assessments by the time students reach graduation.

[2:00 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth East.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: I probably only have a couple of minutes and my honourable colleague from the Liberal Party is going to allow me to take a few minutes of his time, but I just want to get this one question out.

Over the weekend I had the opportunity to attend a community event in my community at my high school. In talking to some of the people at the event at Prince Andrew High School, and with talking to some people who were organizing this event, they told me that they thought they had - and they were going to check on this and get back to me on Monday but they haven't yet so I want to ask this question - they thought that they had perhaps paid around $4,700 to rent that facility to put this event on which would have been two nights and two days.

[Page 323]

My understanding was in one of the previous sessions there was a report that came out from your department that said that our schools were to be used as community schools and that they could only charge for the heat, the lights, the janitors and this sort of thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds to me like an exorbitant amount of money and if we're going to keep our schools as schools that operate and allow community functions to go on, then this is not a good thing. I was just wondering, could you comment on that?

I realize this is short notice and if you can get back to me on what really was charged for this event, I would really appreciate it. If I'm wrong I will apologize to you and also to the people who gave me the information by thought. This is as good a time as any to find out sort of what would be the average cost even of something like this occurring.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. Perhaps we both need a little more detail on this one, but I know that our position is that there would be no charge for school-related activities for youth under the age of 19. Boards do have a fee structure that they use and that they charge for the use of their facilities and you're right, it does cover things like janitors and so on. But I would need more detail on that one and perhaps if you can provide that, it would provide the clarification that we both need.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Annapolis.

MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister again for the opportunity to question her. Listening to the debate over the last few days, I know the issue around school fees has come up and I'm looking for a bit of clarification on your department's criteria around the school fees and particularly around band programs, and whether or not there actually will be a fee for a high school credit band program, for example, in Nova Scotia this coming September.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, we did discuss school fees and indicated that curriculum-related activities should not be subject to a fee. You're speaking in particular about a band program, a high school credit band program, and that would be an elective, not a mandatory, not a compulsory program. So I believe I'm correct on that. If a student wishes to enroll in that program and take that as a credit, and they do not have an instrument of their own and they need to have one in order to participate, the option to rent that would be made available. If they have their own instrument, there would be no charge, but if they don't have, there would be a rental fee and that would be determined by the band auxiliary or the school, or the board, or an outside supplier.

MR. MCNEIL: One of the problems in the constituency that I represent is that much or all of the equipment that is used by band programs, quite frankly, the money is

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raised to buy and purchase that from band associations. As I'm sure you're well aware, once that equipment arrives into the school, it no longer belongs to the band association, it belongs to the school board. Is the school board going to have the ability to lease and rent that equipment back to those students, or is there going to be some way, through your department, a direction in your department that the band associations will actually have ownership of that equipment?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, I'm not aware of the agreement that you're speaking of that exists between your band auxiliary or your band association and the board. I'd certainly appreciate more information on that, but it sounds to me like what you're saying is the band auxiliary or the band association raises money, buys the equipment and it becomes the property of the school board?

MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, to the minister, just for clarification, I don't believe that is unique to my constituency. That's a policy that is, to my understanding, province-wide. The band association cannot own that equipment inside that school. Once it becomes part of the program in the school, it's owned by the school board or the department. The issue is, will the board have the ability to be able to rent that equipment back, or will the board have the ability to actually offload that and leave it in the proper hands which would be the band parents association?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, I need to get more familiar with that policy because frankly, I'm not sure I like what I hear, thank you.

MR. MCNEIL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the minister. I look forward to hearing about that, as I do about the rollout of the charter letter surrounding the high school.

Another issue that has come up in my consistency is around a couple of the high schools: Bridgetown Regional High School and AWEC, Annapolis West Education Centre. Student enrolment is declining and because of that, when you plug in the formula that the Department of Education has for the teacher allocation, it's becoming virtually impossible for those schools to begin to offer the credits that you require for them to graduate.

The Annapolis Valley Regional School Board, to their credit, has provided two extra teachers for this coming year to Bridgetown and Annapolis West Education Centre. What I'm wondering is, from your department, is there any initiative to bring forward to ensure that the rural high schools that are suffering declining enrolment will be able to continue to operate and provide the course level that your department is requiring?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. I know that one step we have taken with respect to additional financial support to small rural high schools is targeted for

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schools that are under 100 students, and we have some of those around our province, and that is the first step.

We also recognize that in some of our high schools we are able to provide on-line courses which allow students to pick up on that course without having to have the qualified teacher delivering that program to them. Are we prepared to look at other ways to support small high schools? We would be prepared to look at that, but at this point our funding allocation is for schools that are rural schools of 100 students or less.

MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding and, I believe, it is the mandate of your department to ensure that all Nova Scotia children get the same access to quality education. By using the cut-off of under 100 students, it really doesn't take into account the very fact that the pressure on schools of 300 to 350 to 400 students because of trying to meet the credit load that your department is putting on them - that is, saying that students who graduate need x number of credits - they have the inability to provide those credits right now under the teacher/student ratio formula that your department is putting out.

To say to students that you can take a course on-line is, in my view, an admission of failure and is an admission showing the problem with that particular formula. I have students in my constituency who are actually leaving those schools and going to other schools, because they are providing them with the options that you're telling them they need and they feel they need in order to move forward as they leave high school and go on to university.

I want you to be able to say to the people of Annapolis County that their children are getting the same quality of education as they are in Kings, as they are in Truro and anywhere else in this province. Under the present formula, if you continue to allow the teacher/student ratio to fund the staffing issue, you cannot say that. To use the cut-off of 100 is unfair, unfair, unfair to many of those schools, and in particular it's unfair to those students.

So I want to know, when can we expect that number to be moved up from 100 to be more sensible?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. It is my understanding that when the boards did meet with the department to look at how the best support could be provided to those small rural schools, that there was an agreement between and among the participants that the first step would be to look at schools with 100 students or less. That was an agreement on the part of the boards, together with the department, and I said that was a first step.

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We would certainly be interested in hearing from your board if there are challenges that they face as far as delivery of our curriculum to their schools and look at possible solutions for that, and we would welcome an opportunity to hear from them in that regard.

MR. MCNEIL: Was it an agreement with the boards or was it flat out to the boards, here it is, take it or leave it? If you want to know how your teacher/student ratio is impacting on the real people it is affecting, that would be the students, you should be reaching out and asking those high school students who are being denied credits because of the staffing situation and the staffing formula you're putting out that does not allow their high school to offer them that credit.

I say to you again, you are forcing kids to leave Annapolis County, quite frankly, to go to other counties to get an education because the schools do not offer that. Saying to them that you can do it on-line is a complete admission to the failure of that formula. I want to be able to leave here to say to those students, what is their option, without having to leave home.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, the first part of your question had to do with how that agreement or decision was made. I understand there was a period of consultation in response to the recommendations from the Hogg report. It was that part of the consultation that took place, and boards did agree that that would be a starting point for the supplementary additional funding for small high schools.

With respect to the question about delivery of courses, it only stands to reason that when you have a critical mass, you do have more opportunity to provide more options for your students. The numbers of students in a school certainly help determine the courses that can be offered and the staff that can be provided to deliver them.

We give our funding to school boards based on student population and, as I said, would welcome an opportunity to talk with your board in particular, if that funding appears to be inadequate for some of your schools.

MR. MCNEIL: I just want to do a follow-up on the response that the minister just said. I believe what you said was, in larger high schools you can offer them a better curriculum than you can in other high schools. So in other words, you're saying from the large high schools, students who are going to those are getting the better quality education, better variety than they are in other parts of Nova Scotia. Is that fair? Is that what the intent of the Department of Education is, to provide an equal access to education, provide a quality of education across the province, to say that larger high schools are going to have a better quality than a smaller one?

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[2:15 p.m.]

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, I don't believe I said anything about the quality of education. I did talk about the number of courses, the number of options that could be provided. That is absolutely no reflection on the quality of education. We recognize that some of our smaller schools, some of our smaller high schools, do and will continue to deliver quality education.

MR. MCNEIL: I would say to you that students in smaller high schools are not getting the access to the actual courses that your department is telling them they need, that would not be quality. That's how they would judge it, when they leave high school they have the same options as any other student in Nova Scotia when they go on to university, that their ability will allow them to go.

Your department, by saying that if you're going to go to a small high school you will not have access to the same advantages as someone going to a larger high school, is, quite frankly, an admission to that. I don't see how you can separate the two.

Mr. Chairman, I don't expect a response to that, but I would like to allow the member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley on an introduction and then I will continue with the remainder of my questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Dartmouth South-Portland Valley.

MS. MARILYN MORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It gives me great pleasure to introduce Peter Stoffer, Member of Parliament for Sackville-Eastern Shore in our west gallery and to thank him on behalf of the Legislature for bringing along the Canada Remember pins. Each MLA will have one at their desk. So welcome very much and I ask everyone to join me in thanking Mr. Stoffer. (Applause)

MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, to the minister, the school board we're talking about is actually the lowest funded school board in the Province of Nova Scotia. One of the things in my constituency that we are quite proud of is the Annapolis East Elementary School. It was one of those schools that developed a program particularly around autism, which is known not only around this province but around the country. When many people move in, as people are transferred in to CFB Greenwood who move into the Valley, they try to live in the location of that school because their children need that extra support. They want them to have access to that quality program that is at Annapolis East Elementary School.

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Part of that is one of the reasons why our board also has a high level of children with special needs. The issue, though, is funding and the funding that follows that to provide that course level. I'm wondering, could you address that issue with me today?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, my understanding, based on the information from staff, is that the board in question operated with a surplus last year. That would suggest to me that at the discretion of the board there were areas that they could have targeted those funds.

MR. MCNEIL: They may be operating at a surplus under the direction of your department, under the guidelines of your department, and under the rules set forward by your department. Quite frankly, that may solve the teacher/student ratio in Bridgetown Regional High School, if that's what you're suggesting. It may also allow them to deal with the special needs. Is it your department, quite frankly, that sets out the student/teacher ratio, or do you send money to the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board and allow them to divvy it up as they wish?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. It's my understanding that the funds are allocated to the board and the board uses those funds to provide the staffing to deliver the programs in question.

MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, I may be wrong on this issue, but I believe the minister knows there's a formula that comes out of their department around staffing issues. Now, unless every other school in my district is completely wrong, there's a formula, which could be.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. It's my understanding that it is a funding formula that determines the amount of money that goes to the board, it is not a staffing formula.

MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, so my question then is, in the end - once you allocate x number of dollars, the board can do with it as they wish?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. The boards have flexibility within their budget to cover the costs related to delivering the curriculum and operating their schools -yes, they do.

MR. MCNEIL: Could you explain to me what you mean by "flexibility"?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. My definition of flexibility there would be recognizing that there are certain needs, and special needs, in some areas of their board, some schools in particular - and it may be a small school - that the flexibility

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they have is to direct some additional funding, and that could be in the form of staffing, to some of those schools.

MR. MCNEIL: If the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board operated in a surplus, is that surplus returned to you?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, the surplus is not returned to the department.

MR. MCNEIL: So in the ensuing fiscal year, is the budget set by the funding that was used the previous year or set by the budget of the previous year?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. The surplus is not returned to the department and it is not deducted from their next year's budget.

MR. MCNEIL: I appreciate that, but is the next year's budget based on the previous year's budget or is it on the previous year's expenditures?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. Their having a surplus does not affect the application of the funding formula for the next year.

MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, I will be sharing the rest of my time with the member for Kings West.

I look forward to my next meeting with the Annapolis Valley Regional School Board to just perhaps see their side of the story, and I want to thank the minister for the opportunity over the last few days to ask questions around education concerning the people of Annapolis.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Kings West.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to finish out the remaining time, unless a colleague comes along with a pressing question, and I would like to just start off today in what I would call a leisurely fashion.

With the minister's background in education, just appointed to the ministry a short time ago, I'm wondering, what are a couple of areas that you in particular - let's put aside the background of the Department of Education and, in this case, an educator in the deputy role - what would be a couple of areas that you would hope to have an impact on changing or improving some of the directions? And I'll point to one area where we have a huge deficiency in our school system, and it may be one that you will actually identify, I'd just like to know a couple of areas that, over the next while, we can all sort of monitor, that there are some steps being taken in those directions.

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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. I would certainly want the outcome of my time in the minister's office to be one that I can be proud of. I've always been motivated by doing what I believe is best for kids - that's what has motivated me as a teacher and as a principal and in every other position that I've held. That will not change while I'm in this position; your beliefs do not change just simply because you take on a new responsibility. So I will be motivated by what's best for kids.

To me that translates into us being able to provide the supports we need to our teachers to deliver quality programs, and to our students to ensure that they are able to learn to the best of their ability in the environments that we provide. All of that, of course, has to be prefaced by resources that we have at our disposal to make that happen. But what we want, what I want, out of all of this is that we have a good educational program so that kids can be successful at whatever level, based on their ability, and that they can become good citizens who are able to leave this public education system that we have, and I personally, and the department, can be proud of the outcomes they're able to achieve.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Madam Minister, for a fairly general, sort of motherhood type of statement about education, but I do appreciate it nevertheless.

I'm wondering, and I'm going to go to an area that I, certainly as a teacher, as a vice-principal, as an Education Critic, as one who got around the province a fair bit, would identify as a huge deficit in our school system - while some progress is being made, there's no question - special education. I would like you to give me your definition of special education, because as minister that is truly going to frame where the department could be going over the next two or three years.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, when I talked about providing education to all students to the best of our ability and so that they could learn up to their potential, I'm referring to the broad range of learning abilities in our schools, and one of the areas that we quite often neglect are the students at the upper end of the scale - you can call them gifted, you can call them whatever you want, but they are students who are able to exceed above and beyond, and who need to be challenged in their programs. I would want to make sure that we don't lose sight of programs that are designed to provide those students with those enrichment and challenging opportunities. So they are all part, in my opinion, of a special education program.

I think the special education program, as I said, applies to all abilities across the board. I know that in our budget for this year that we have looked at providing supports, whether it's guidance, whether it's resource teachers, a number of initiatives that we believe will allow those students, whatever the ability, to perform and to excel.

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MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, certainly that gives somewhat of a framework, I guess, for the gamut of special education. I'm thinking here, though, more in particular of children, around our students who have gone through the educational assessments and have been identified with a very specific learning disability. There are a whole number of them. You know, if we take dyslexia, or ADD, or ADHD, if we take those specific learning disabilities, there is no question today that in most of our schools we do not have a specialist who can take that child from A to Z in terms of the learning strategies, in terms of the kind of change that will need to go on.

[2:30 p.m.]

There are some remnants of fully trained special education teachers in our system, there are a few remaining that are in our resource departments. Many of our resource teachers, they will tell you I can only give minimal support to this child. They have an identified learning disability and only a specialized program with that kind of expertise like we find at Landmark East, or at Bridgeway Academy, or at Churchill Academy, will help them actually overcome and achieve the level of success. I feel very strongly - again, just a few years from having been on the ground with students - we have a problem in Nova Scotia with our withdrawal rate, that's a nice term from the Department of Education, but kids who quit school because their identified learning problem, learning disability, is not able to be addressed.

I'm wondering, over the next number of years, whether we're prepared to put specialists back in our schools who can help those children, or at the very least my suggestion actually would be that in each of the boards across the province we would have something comparable to a Churchill Academy, or a Bridgeway Academy, so that the children in Cape Breton who now - you may get one or two a year who will come from Cape Breton to Landmark East, otherwise their dyslexia problem, their ADD, et cetera, will not be addressed, because it's not being addressed right now.

I would like for the minister to comment on some directional pieces as to where the department wants to make that kind of improvement. You know, if we lose 1,000 students at the Grade 10 level, and based on the last statistical yearbook that I got from the department - over 1,000 students, Grade 10; over 1,000, Grade 11; a little bit less in Grade 12 - those are unacceptable numbers. I think some of it is around the fact that we are not meeting needs. We're not meeting needs on the special education side and, to some extent, as well, on the program side.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. I mentioned earlier that we have about 20 per cent of our students in our schools who do receive supports in a variety of forms, and those supports are to help them achieve the outcomes that we have designed for that particular grade level.

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We also have, in this budget, added some things that we believe will enhance that. We're looking at increasing the number of educational assistants. We're looking at increasing the number of supports in the guidance area, in particular at the elementary. We have a staff of itinerant teachers who do provide supports, be it speech language, school psychologists, and we take advantage of their expertise and allow them to work with teachers who don't have specific training in those areas but who do need to have some strategies at their disposal. Because of the inclusion policy, we have those students in our classes and our teachers need to be trained and well versed in strategies to deal with those students. So it's ongoing and it's evolving.

We've moved away from special schools for special education students and we've gone to the inclusion policy, but we recognize that there are times and there are students who cannot necessarily always be included, so we have provisions in our schools for those students to get direct service and support usually on a one-on-one, sometimes it's a pullout for a period of their instructional day, and other times it is perhaps in a separate learning environment.

So we're doing a lot of things. Is it enough? I guess the fact that we've included things in this budget to address that should suggest that, no, we're not happy with things the way they are now. We've identified some areas that need more support and we will continue to do that. I would see that evolving, based on input that we get from our teachers and from our parents as to, you know, are we meeting the needs of those students, and if we are not, what can we continue to do or what can we change to help do that?

MR. GLAVINE: Madam Minister, you know, I certainly think that it's a huge problem for our education system and it's one that I'll continue to drill down on, and one that I will continue to raise in this House, because I'm a pretty strong proponent of the inclusionary model for our system, but certainly it seems that more and more of our students don't get that specialized help, especially in certain parts of the province where there are no such programs available.

A very, very good program that this government brought in under the former minister was the tuition agreements. There's no question that the tuition agreements have allowed some children from families who would never have been able to go to Bridgeway Academy, or Churchill Academy - Landmark East is still pretty distant for some of our children, even for a day student, we're into the $20,000 range. So the tuition agreement doesn't quite make it for some children.

So it's still an area that does need, I think, a considerable amount of work and I feel that something at the regional level that each board can offer. Like right now in AVRSB, we have two alternate schools, and there's no question, the alternate school is proving to be a very, very successful model. I'm just wondering, is this now across the

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province, and is it one that we're likely to see more resources directed toward in the coming years?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. One of the supports that I didn't mention this time, but I had earlier, was the tuition support, and recognizing that the environment in those particular schools is one that we cannot create in our public school system, but we recognize that it is an environment where some students do learn best. So we are prepared, as I said earlier, to extend that two-year to three and during that third year, for students who need that third year, the consultation to see what other supports we can best provide, but at this point in our budget and in our program plan, those schools are beyond our means fiscally.

MR. GLAVINE: Around this theme and area of having programs that do meet student needs, certainly the Memorial Composite High School concept is one that the new Premier has touted as a model that perhaps we should see an expansion of, and I'm wondering, during this government's mandate, will we see the announcement of such a school, or the conversion of an existing high school, and at least maybe one of these in each of the boards across the province?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member. Your reference to Memorial Composite High School and also to the Premier's comments and commitment, I think we have recognized that we will be beginning the extension of that by looking at one site in each board - that is a beginning. We are also looking at the O2 opportunities, and I think those are 27 sites across the province. So we do recognize that there is a need to take some of that programming and extend it beyond, to make it more accessible to more of our students in more of our boards. So those are a couple of, what we believe are, positive steps towards that goal.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Madam Minister. It sounds to me like you endorse the idea, but the plans are not quite on the paper yet, so we will have to watch that one and see where it goes in the next bit.

Along the area of our dropout rate and the withdrawal rate, I'm wondering if you ever take a close look at a particular board or area as to why there may be that anomaly or that significant percentage of students, in a board, who will drop out. For example, in AVRSB at the Grade 9 level we see a withdrawal or a dropout rate of between 4 and 5 per cent, and I'm wondering if the department actually ever takes a look to see whether or not that's due to perhaps the structural arrangement, whether or not the middle school or the junior high or the Grade 9 attached to a senior high, because it's significantly above other boards in the province.

I'm just wondering, is there something that can be identified which, in fact, will assist the board to address that, because at that Grade 9 level, that to me is the student

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we're trying to now help with adult high school. I'm wondering, is there ever anything done by the department to do an analysis and find reasons for that?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. The statistics that are available from the boards are passed on to the department. We ask the boards to review those and see what kind of a message may come to them, whether it is dropout rate or whether it is success rates with certain outcomes, but data is only as good as the time you give to analyze it and then to use it for future planning.

One of the things that we have in place now - a system where we can collect that data and it can come in electronically, and one of the things that we will be doing in that tracking model is for our department to be getting that data more readily and have staff at our department also doing an assessment and an evaluation, because it should be used to determine future direction and future investments, both from the department's level and from the board. So we recognize that data is important. The figures you're talking about, the 4 to 5 per cent, those are not statistics that we want to see repeated, so we're hoping that the tracking will allow us to get a handle on what's happening and how we can address it.

MR. GLAVINE: Another area that I'd like to now go to is teacher education. I hear from the fly on the wall that perhaps the deputy minister is actually quite keen on this, and that is having a review of teacher education with the possibility that Nova Scotia may move to where other provinces already are, and that is a one-year program. I'm just wondering, is there a possibility of a review, any kind of intention at the moment of moving that way?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. If I could bring a little personal contact here. I do have special interest in teacher training and the quality of teachers that we have across our province and the variety of training institutions from which they have come. We recognize at this point in time that we have four universities that provide teacher training opportunities, but we are in consultation with universities and we are continuing to do a review of that - do we have enough seats, how much time is it taking for young people to get trained as teachers, what are the qualifications, what is the quality of their training program, and what we can best do to make sure that we have the best trained people, trained in Nova Scotia, to be teachers in our schools. So that whole business of teacher training is certainly one that I will be leading, as far as a review.

[2:45 p.m.]

MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, through you to Madam Minister. I think Nova Scotia and perhaps other provinces are in a similar situation. I think we have a great opportunity here over the next eight- to 10-year period to capitalize on perhaps the

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greatest resource for strong teacher training, and that is with the existing teacher complement that we have in the province. As you have alluded to the fact and I would concur that, overall, we do have an outstanding teaching force. However, when we take a look at the fact that 45 per cent, 46 per cent - and I just did the statistics on this yesterday - are between the ages of 45 and 55, so we have 45 per cent of our teaching force. What a great time to have a one-year program in our four universities for teacher training and a year of internship. I think the year of internship can certainly, in my view, gain from that tremendous resource that we already have in our schools.

We also know that some schools, last year, ran into difficulties with substitute teachers. There was quite a number of reports last year that a principal or a vice-principal had to spend a day in a classroom when there wasn't somebody available. What a wonderful opportunity, with an internship, to have somebody in the school who would be getting that kind of training. I'm wondering, do you know, at this stage, if the Nova Scotia Teachers Union, the Department of Education, would be positive towards that kind of concept of one year at university and a year of internship?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. That option that you just shared may well be one of the outcomes of the review. It would be premature for me to suggest what the outcome might be, but I'm sure that will be something that will be on the table at that time and during those discussions. If I could just speak a little bit to the substitute issue. We know that school boards have experienced some difficulty with the availability of substitutes, and we know that parents have often been concerned about the number of substitutes that are in their child's classroom during the course of a year.

We've not taken that lightly. We've listened to what parents have been saying about that interruption and we've listened to what principals have been saying, and we've also listened to what teachers have been saying about the amount of time that they may have to be out of their classroom, not due to illness, but due to other requests. That could be, and sometimes is, a request from this department to have teachers who work on curriculum development, or some things like that, and so we're taking a real hard look at that because the fewer interruptions we have for those students, by introducing substitutes into the class, the more consistent that flow of delivery is. So we're looking at that as well.

It would also help to - again putting students first - make sure that there was consistent delivery and the relationship they have with their teacher is not interrupted unnecessarily. Also, it would help address the concerns that boards have about so many substitutes being needed, perhaps on a daily basis.

So the whole issue of teacher training and how students get that educational program, whether it is the one year of university and another year of practicum, those are,

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as I said, options that we're looking at and may well be part of the discussion and the outcome of the review.

MR. GLAVINE: Madam Minister, just a couple of other areas to touch upon before I finish up - one that my colleague, the member for Annapolis, raised yesterday was in regard to the Nova Scotia Community College campus in Middleton, and one of the things that we have seen in that campus is certainly a decline in students and obviously if you shift programs out of the school, then there's no question, we're going to have less enrolment.

While it's good to go to that school and see that some of the physical space is being used for research, and certainly it's difficult to disagree with that initiative, but at the same time we're in an area where the basic trades are in a huge deficit in terms of numbers currently needed. During the past year, I had a meeting with the principal of the school, Mr. Stanley, as well as we brought in a number of companies that talk about this very fact. In this area, they've identified, of course, the basic trades of electrical, plumbing, carpentry, as being the most currently in need of and, I'm just wondering, is there a commitment, is there a plan?

We only have 18 per cent of our post-secondary students who go to community college and I know that's an area that, as a province, we all want to see increase. We want to see more balance toward the national average so that we can have a good complement of skilled people in a whole wide range of basic trades, up to the ones requiring more education and of a higher technical nature.

When we see what has happened in Middleton, right away we start to think about its future, and there's no question that if we put programs there, such as, for example, training the therapists for the ABA, or the EIBI autism program, if you have a quality program, students will come. There are places to stay in this community and in neighbouring communities.

Take, for example, the Nova Scotia Community College campus site in Lawrencetown, or what I certainly would like to see renamed, the College of Geographic Sciences - and I may have to work on that one a little - there's no question, they come internationally to that institute. There's nothing in Lawrencetown to attract people there but the college itself - outstanding programs. The same thing can be said about Middleton, if we put two, three, or four high requirement, quality programs in place, we'll definitely see the students come back.

Is there a plan to revive the Middleton campus of the Nova Scotia Community College?

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MS. CASEY: If I could do an introduction first and then I will answer the question. I'd like to draw your attention to some folks we have in our gallery here today, just joined us. They are from the Dalhousie Explorer Program, which is an English immersion program. These are students from Quebec and they're here visiting us, we welcome you to the Legislature and hope that your stay here and in Nova Scotia is enjoyable. Welcome. (Applause)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the member opposite. I spoke earlier about the O2 program. There will be O2 program students in 27 of our schools this year. One of the ways it meets a need because, as you've identified, the skilled labour void and we need to have people trained in those skills so they can take over as the other generation is retiring.

So we're meeting that need by providing opportunities for those students to be trained, but we're also helping with the Nova Scotia Community College situation because a completion of that O2 program guarantees those students a seat at the Nova Scotia Community College. So we recognize the importance of community colleges, the capacity that they have, and we now have a mechanism to feed into them a population that will help rebuild.

I appreciate your concerns about how important that facility is in those communities, and we see this as one step to help recruit, rebuild and increase the population of those students there. I look forward to how that will translate into your particular areas, but that's something really positive that we see coming out of that O2 initiative.

MR. GLAVINE: Just with the remaining time, I'll take a look at a few questions around the student loan program. Currently our government has a contract with RBC to be the primary lender and the province is the guarantor. Is that correct? Also, it's my understanding this contract will be up as of this year. Will this government be renegotiating that contract with RBC, and will it be going towards a different lender or will the Nova Scotia Government and the Department of Education become the primary lender?

MS. CASEY: Your facts are correct, we do have a contract with RBC. We will be extending that contract, but we'll also be looking - and RBC are aware of this - at what has been suggested by members around the House as a good move for students and that is a direct-lend program. What we see that doing for students is, a direct-lend should provide them with a lower interest rate which will help them in the accumulative debt for their student loans.

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MR. GLAVINE: I guess with the remaining time, I'll just skip along here. The graduate tax credit that the government is announcing, will they go against existing loans or will the money be reflected as collectible dollar amounts in their income tax?

MS. CASEY: It's my understanding that the graduate tax credit is a credit for those students when they complete their income tax at the end of the tax year.

MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, regarding the parental contribution amount attributed to the student loan funding formula, how much more can a parental income be so that a student can receive more money under the program? Also, the Budget Address stated that it was decreased by 25 per cent, what exactly in terms of dollar amounts and income levels for parents and students in this province?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, I guess the Coles Notes version here would be that by increasing the parental income level, more students would be eligible to apply for student loans and, therefore, more students could benefit from that option.

MR. GLAVINE: I'm wondering, Madam Minister, however, in terms of dollar amounts, income levels, what will those be established at? I think that's what parents are concerned about. One year ago when I visited most of the campuses in the province, this was one of the concerns raised by students, is that certainly by year three and four there was an increasing number who were using a line of credit for their education. I would think that would be a goal to try to eliminate some of that. So what will be then the dollar amounts, income levels for parents and students in the province?

[3:00 p.m.]

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, it's my understanding that at this point in time the cut-off is $85,000, and with this proposal that we have in our budget the family income would be $105,000, so it's a significant increase.

MR. GLAVINE: That certainly is a significant increase and I'm pleased to see moving towards that level. The graduate tax credit, of course, is one that our caucus has talked about for some time. While we were certainly proposing a more significant amount, certainly a $1,000 non-refundable tax credit is a great first step. I'm wondering if this will be retroactive. Can a student who has graduated some time ago apply and be accepted for this credit?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member, I would have to refer that to the Minister of Finance. I do know that that $1,000 tax credit can be used during one of any three years, but I would not be prepared to answer the question with respect to retroactive.

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MR. GLAVINE: I just have one minute left and that probably answers a little bit of my next question which was if a student leaves the province and he's away for two years and came back in that third year, I was wondering, would the credit then apply in that third year?

MS. CASEY: It would be my understanding that if that situation did develop, because it says within any one of the three years, that if he came back and was eligible in that third year, it could apply.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time has expired for the member.

I would now invite the Minister of Education to close the debate.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few closing remarks as a result of our discussions. I would like to thank the members here for their questions and I commit to you that I will fulfill any of the promises that I have made either to seek information, to lead a review, or to meet with you individually to follow up on some of your concerns. I would also like to thank my staff who have been here providing me with information and helping me address questions, the information of which I do not have at my fingertips.

Mr. Chairman, if passed, this budget would help the Department of Education accomplish a lot for our students, our teachers, our families and our school communities. We are taking about $85 million more in the Education budget, and that brings it to a total of $1.37 billion. That is a significant contribution on the part of this government to help support students of all ages in our province. It is the second highest department budget of the provincial government and it is a testimony to the importance that we put on education.

There will be more money to help students succeed, to reduce class sizes, to add more supports and resources to our schools and, as well, we will initiate the new funding formula for school boards that would ensure they have the funding they need in order to deliver service to our children.

Learning for Life II, which is the province's multi-year strategy, will continue. The International Baccalaureate program will be launched and expanded. As well, 27 high schools across the province will introduce the O2 program and will build on the successes enjoyed by boards with similar programs. Students, as a result of the coming healthy food policy and more physical activity in our schools, will now be healthier now and later in life. There would be more funding to build and improve schools across Nova Scotia, and the review of the Education Act regulations related to school closures will go ahead this Fall as planned and as announced.

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There will be new funding to improve the Nova Scotia Community College and to work with universities. There will be funding to provide more opportunities for more Nova Scotians to attend university and college, and there will be more funding for apprenticeships and adult learning.

Our support for education is growing faster than the rate of inflation, at a time when Primary to Grade 12 enrolment is declining by more than 2 per cent. Our support for schools and public libraries will continue.

In short, Mr. Chairman, there would be a sizeable investment in our future as presented in this budget. I believe that Nova Scotia has an excellent education system from pre-Primary to graduate. This is the result of the many dedicated people who work as teachers, counsellors, administrators, bus drivers, the many people involved in our education system. I want to thank them publicly for their efforts and tell them that their commitment and their passion is appreciated.

I would ask that the proposed budget for the Department of Education for public education and assistance to universities be passed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E3 stand?

Resolution E3 stands.

Resolution E4 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $227,872,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of Assistance to Universities, Department of Education, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E4 carry?

Resolution E4 is carried.

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to call the estimates for the Department of Transportation and Public Works.

Resolution E33 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $291,955,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Transportation and Public Works, pursuant to the Estimate.

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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Public Works.

HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I'm very pleased to be able to rise in the House today and report on the work and the estimates for the following portfolios: Transportation and Public Works; Treasury and Policy Board; Sydney Steel Corporation Act, including the tar ponds; and Gaelic Initiatives.

I'll begin as Minister of Transportation and Public Works and address the Committee of the Whole House as it considers my department's 2006-07 estimates. I'll preface the numbers with an overview of our mission as it plays such a crucial role in building the foundations of our communities and roots through prosperity.

Our mission is to construct, maintain and manage provincial highways, buildings and public infrastructure; to provide the hardware of our society; to provide built capital that supports sustainable, economic growth and social well-being; and to lay the route to prosperity for future generations.

Committed to this mission are 2,000 dedicated public servants across the province who work for our department. They keep our communities going and growing by providing good public infrastructure. I'd like to thank the people who work for the department, both public and private workers, for doing a great job for all Nova Scotians. The staff with me here today: on my left is Doug Stewart who is the Chief Engineer for Highways Programs; on my right is the Director of Financial Services, Greg Penny; and in the gallery is the deputy minister, David Darrow. Greg Lusk, Executive Director of Public Works, is with him in the gallery. Brian Gallivan may be with us from time to time and Dan Davis who is Acting Director of Communications. Bruce Fitzner is up there as well.

Like many places in North America, we face huge resource challenges in building, maintaining and upgrading highways, roads, schools, hospitals and public buildings. At the same time, we know we must invest in transportation and electronic links that meet globally-accepted business standards. Those links will allow us to expand trade and business opportunities.

Another challenge is managing public expectations. We live in a fast and brave new world, yet we are surrounded by declining infrastructure and rising costs. We have some of the oldest buildings and roadbeds in North America, and we manage 23,000 kilometres of road. The average age of pavement is 21 years old and the national average is 14 years old. We manage 4,000 bridges in the province. Department staff estimate that the province's road and bridge infrastructure deficit is more than $4 billion, and that is climbing.

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We all want safe and prosperous places to raise our families, yet we also want the province to live within its means. We are proud of our heritage, yet we must prepare for the future. So this year's budget increases the province's investment in infrastructure. In total, $351 million will go to maintaining and improving Nova Scotia's highways, roads and bridges.

The Nova Scotia Government will spend about $100 million more on roads than it collects in gas tax revenues. The 2006-07 capital budget for Transportation and Public Works is approximately $199 million - this includes $176 million for highways and more than $22 million for capital construction for buildings and other public works.

The department's capital budget has quadrupled since 2000-01, and this has led to more twinned highways and better secondary roads across the province. During 2006-07 the government has earmarked an additional $34 million in new capital spending for highways such as twinning Highway No. 103 to Tantallon, completing the Barrington portion of Highway No. 103, completing the Coxheath portion of Highway No. 125, completing the Highway No. 118-Wright Avenue interchange, twinning Highway No. 101 west of Falmouth, and twinning Highway No. 104 east of New Glasgow.

The amount of highway maintenance work carried out on our rural roads is also increasing during 2006-07 due to a $2.5 million increase over last year's budget. This year's investment is $17.5 million. The road improvement money, known as RIM, will go to asphalt patching, ditching and gravelling, shoulder repairs, guardrails and bush cutting. This year's investment brings us closer to our commitment to increase the road improvement money to $20 million by 2007. These projects are largely tendered, leading to greater cost efficiencies for taxpayers and first-rate work for residents; the feedback from communities has been very positive.

[3:15 p.m.]

TPW is implementing a Pavement Management System during 2006-07 to make better use of current funding levels for the capital repaving program. This is the fourth year of the five-year Steel Truss Bridge Replacement Program. Expenditures for 2006-07 are estimated to be $13 million, largely to replace eight bridges.

Road safety is a two-way street, so to speak. It is a shared responsibility for those who build the roads and bridges and those who use them. Our job in the Department of Transportation and Public Works is to provide a well-designed and maintained provincial highway system - safe routes for safe driving.

My department will spend an additional $2.5 million in operational funding on provincial highway safety enhancement this year, including centre and edge traffic line painting, upgrading and installing guardrails, brush cutting and guide sign maintenance.

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To further improve safety, our department will paint centre and edge traffic lines on more roads more frequently. Annual painting will now entail white edge lines on all provincial trunks and routes, and centre lines on all local roads. While all drivers use traffic lines as visual guides for safe travel, aging drivers find them of particular benefit and the department is revising its line-painting policy to paint traffic lines on more highways. Before the department painted the trunk and route traffic lines every second year, and in most cases our provincial route edge lines were not painted at all. Drivers will notice this safety enhancement and they will also see more road-painting trucks.

Nova Scotia is recognized nationally as a leader in road safety, and the Department of Transportation and Public Works is proud to be the government department in charge of the effort. Our budget for 2006-07 designates funds for road safety campaigns, including the promotion of new child safety seat laws. New seat belt regulations to protect children will come into effect on January 1, 2007. The department is launching a campaign this fall that will help parents choose the right kind of car seat, based on the size and age of the child. The province recognized that we need to better manage the safety of children as they outgrew age and weight recommendations for traditional child safety seats. We need to ensure a safe transition for children until they are big enough to use adult shoulder belts.

The department is also developing and will soon launch a multi-media campaign targeting risk-taking young drivers. The objective is to make the issue of speeding and impaired driving important enough to young drivers so that they will take action. The department will work with its road safety partners to promote safe driving in these campaigns, but we'll also continue to support ongoing campaigns such as Operation Christmas.

As I mentioned before, road safety is a shared responsibility. At crosswalks, the shared responsibility applies to pedestrians and drivers. We have made progress in improving safety for pedestrians. There are far fewer deaths in Nova Scotia today than there were in the past. In the 1970s there were 454 fatalities. Since 2000, there have been seven fatalities at crosswalks in Nova Scotia - four at crosswalks on two-lane roads and three at crosswalks with multi-lane approaches. We all know that one death is too many, and although crosswalk safety is more of a concern in urban areas under municipal responsibility, it's important for the province to investigate, identify and implement strategies and measures that will improve pedestrian and crosswalk safety.

Nova Scotia follows the national standards for signs and markings for crosswalks. Our department staff is in contact with other provinces regarding the use of devices such as flashing amber versus flashing red lights. Road safety is not just about the devices or the engineering. The relationship between the vehicle and pedestrian is very fragile. Road safety is also about education and enforcement, about sharing space and mutual respect.

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Improving and expanding our roads and highways is key to ensuring our economic and social well-being, and for keeping our communities safe, vibrant and prosperous.

During a 2001 review of Nova Scotia's primary and secondary highway systems, staff identified a $3.4 billion infrastructure deficit and, as I mentioned earlier, the deficit is now at $4 billion, and still, it is climbing. To address this need, the province developed a plan identifying priorities and strategies, investments, and increased the c