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MR. CHAIRMAN: Good Afternoon. The Committee on Supply will now be called to order.

The honourable Government House Leader.

HON. MICHAEL BAKER: Mr. Chairman, I call the estimates of the Department of Health.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Glace Bay.

MR. DAVID WILSON(Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to go back somewhat and go over a few things with the minister here on a number of the topics that we've been talking about over the last little while. To begin with, with respect to the value-for-money audits that I had asked some questions on earlier, to the minister, and just to recap, these audits are currently being done and there is an approximate $1 million price tag on these audits. The minister indicated that these audits are meant to capture a snapshot in time within our acute care sector. One question I would like to ask the minister and just to clarify, did I hear him correctly, is that the case, are these audits being done to measure a snapshot in time, so to speak? Is that the purpose of the audits?

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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Health.

HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and once again, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate the estimates for the Department of Health. To the member opposite, it is basically taking a certain number of months in looking at the operational pieces within those months, but it's also looking at past performance, to make some suggestions on O.R., and other pieces within that acute care system. It's from when to when? I'm just trying to remember the actual dates that they're taking that snapshot. I'll try to get that information for you before I stand up next time.

MR. DAVID WILSON(Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it would be very useful to have the dates of exactly when that snapshot is going to be taken. Would the minister please tell us if Corpus Sanchez, who's going to be doing the value-for-money audits, will be making recommendations to government at the end of the day? Will Corpus Sanchez make those recommendations to you and your department and if so, exactly what types of recommendations are they going to be making?

[12:45 p.m.]

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, yes, Corpus Sanchez was the successful bidder on this contract. We are expecting them to give us a whole range of recommendations, we're hoping late Fall, somewhere near the end of October, November range.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, would the minister be a little bit more specific when he says they expect a whole range of recommendations, exactly what types of recommendations is he expecting to get from that value-for-money audit?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, rather than listing here the number of things that they'll be doing, I will provide him with a copy of the RFP, so he could actually have a look at what we're asking them to come back with for recommendations.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, that will suffice, I guess. Basically what we're looking for here is - the whole idea of estimates is to have the minister and staff here to answer questions, not to provide the answer every time that he's going to be providing a list at a later date. The whole idea of having the minister and his staff here is to get some answers here and of course, as anyone knows, your answer could depend on the next series of questions. For instance, I'd like to know - and as an example, Colchester-East Hants had a value-for-money audit performed on them back in February 2004, I think that's when it was completed. Is Corpus Sanchez going in and

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once again doing a value-for-money audit on Colchester-East Hants, after having already done one back in February, a couple of years ago?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, with Colchester-East Hants, since they already had their value-for-money audit, they'll be using the data that was collected during that piece and maybe asking for another couple of pieces of data to fill in the blanks. For the most part, that work has been done and we won't be asking them to redo it.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, the minister will be fully aware that one of the recommendations that was made in the value-for-money audit that was done a couple of years ago in Colchester stated the following: The Department of Health, in co-operation with the DHAs, should develop standardized reporting and benchmarks to facilitate comparisons of performance between the district health authorities. Could the minister please indicate now what progress has been made with respect to the recommendation that came from that audit a couple of years ago?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, the previous bidder for the Colchester-East Hants value-for-money audit, PHSOR - there's a whole bunch of acronyms that we're going to be calling it - was Virginia MacDonald and Associates. They did suggest a whole range of recommendations, things that we are working on when it comes to reporting and standards, when it comes to the implementation of certain accounting programming and those kinds of things. Fortunately, that information will be uploaded into our larger value-for-money audit, and I'm sure there will be some similar recommendations.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, the value-for-money audit done in Colchester two years ago also indicated the development of a funding formula that was supposed to provide a fair, equitable and transparent funding to the district health authorities. Could the minister tell us now, has this been done?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, ultimately, as we move down most funding - of course, as I've been saying, it's business-plan based, service based, depending on the services you have, depending on the funding you receive, plus several other issues of staffing and other programming. As we move along through this phase of recommendations and research, I would suggest that we'll probably be moving toward some kind of base formula. Of course that would have to be done in discussions with all stakeholders, including the DHAs.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'm not sure, Mr. Chairman, if that was a yes or if it was a no, whether or not it has been done. This was a value-for-money audit which was done a couple of years ago in Colchester-East Hants, over two years ago. So over two years ago the minister, after receiving that recommendation - it wasn't he,

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personally, who received the recommendation, it would have been a previous minister - but surely you know by now whether or not they followed that recommendation through. I don't know exactly how much was spent on that audit, probably a considerable amount of money. But you would know by now, I would think, anyway, whether or not - in particular, the development of a funding formula - whether or not there has been any progress on that recommendation. I'm asking the minister again, has it been done? If it hasn't, then, why not?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, as we've taken value-for-money audits of, in particular, DHAs, they've come back with a number of recommendations. Two of them, I think, at this point, have revolved around the idea of having a funding formula. With the Colchester-East Hants audit, we felt that in order to sort of work on that recommendation on a province-wide basis, that we would have to go towards having a full value-for-money audit across the system to start using that data to develop a true funding formula. Other jurisdictions in Canada have tried, and of course it has been quite a challenge in most jurisdictions. We want to make sure that should we go down the path of a funding formula that we have all the data and information required in order to have the most fair formula possible.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, so the minister is telling us now that one of the recommendations we can expect from the Corpus Sanchez value-for-money audit, one of those recommendations will be a province-wide funding formula for DHAs. Are you expecting Corpus Sanchez to make that kind of a recommendation?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, what I'm saying is that from the previous value-for-money audits, since they had those recommendations held within them, we're expecting Corpus Sanchez to come back and suggest certain models for a true funding formula. So basically we've accepted the idea, but we want to make sure we have our information, get the data collected and consult with the DHAs before we have a true discussion of the formula, and make sure it's the most fair one possible for the whole province.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, let me change topics, if I may, to the subject of home care. I believe it's on Page 11.16 of the Supplementary Detail, it outlines some increases in home care. The overall increase is in the vicinity of $21 million, I believe. Could the minister please indicate whether the increases in the various districts reflect any new programs, or do those increases just simply maintain the status quo?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, most of that increase would revolve around utilization increases, as well as wage settlement, in some, expended home care services, and of course the increase in self-managed care, pretty much in order to maintain status quo with the increase in utilization.

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MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, the next page - Page 11.17 of the Supplementary Detail - shows increases of over $31 million in long-term care. Let me ask the minister, do any of those increases reflect an increase in nursing home beds in their respective DHAs, or are the increases, again, maintaining the status quo?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, of course some of it would be built around maintaining the status quo. That money was underlying the 50 restorative beds in the province, the completion of the Richmond Villa, which of course is a replacement, 25 new beds Northside-Seaview, 26 additional beds between DVA and ourselves. Interim strategy for the ALC pressures, which is the funding we provided through to the DHAs, or will be providing through the DHAs, in order to expand the ALC beds in the province.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, there are increases in nursing home beds. That's what the minister is saying. Again, which district health authority budgets reflect those increases?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, I'm just trying to make sure we have that. The interim strategy for the ALC beds was across the district, so it's held centrally to be passed along, depending on the proposals. The 50 restorative beds were, of course, across the system and the 25 new beds, the Northside Harbour View facility and Seaview Manor in Cape Breton, as well as the 26 beds - I'm not sure where those are being dispersed.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, more of a general question. Mr. Minister, how long does it take for a nursing home bed to be available for use? Once an announcement is made, once you have announced that there is a new nursing home bed, how long is the period of time to actually put that into use?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, what I'm being told is that on a greenfield situation, when there is no structure there, we are looking at a three-year plan and build process. If we're looking at expansion of existing facilities, that would happen in more of a 24-month span.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So those new beds which were announced - how long ago, it's leaving my memory right now, but anyway - those new beds will be within two years is what you're saying? Is that correct, Mr. Minister?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, I believe he means out of the list of 826 beds, I think is what he's referring to. We are expecting that to have all of them on line would take about the four-year span, but we're hoping there are a number of programs and requests going there that would have a few of those up and running within the two- to three-year span. There are a number of facilities that are

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already in progress. There are almost 200 and some that are already in process, so those would be built as soon as possible, so within the 24-month span.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So if the government made a commitment that new beds are supposedly going to open in one area - I don't know, let's say down around Middleton or some place like that - if the government made a commitment to that area that new beds would open in 2008, it should be sod-turning time, shouldn't it, Mr. Minister?

[1:00 p.m.]

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Of course our commitment to Middleton will be one of great interest for the member for Annapolis, I'm sure, over the next little bit. Fortunately, once that discussion is had and the prioritization happens, let's say we're able to get some of that information out and done by the end of summer, then I would suspect it would take about two to three years to construct, by the time you do the plan and make sure you have all your RFP process complete.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): If you have made a commitment, which your government has, made a firm commitment that it will be done by 2008, then you would expect to keep that commitment. That would be a promise that you would be keeping. If not, then it would go down as a broken promise, one that is not kept.

I'm sure the minister intends to keep that promise because that was a very strong commitment made to the people of Middleton during the election campaign. I know personally that the member for Annapolis will certainly make sure that commitment is kept - you'll be in trouble if it's not, let me put it that way.

Let me move on, if I may then, to another page, the very next page in the Supplementary Detail, Page 11.18, which deals with diagnostic and medical equipment. It shows a decrease there by some $25 million. I think that's a result of no more federal funding for medical equipment, I'm assuming anyway. So this fiscal year the minister there has budgeted only $2 million. Is $2 million enough?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, the $2 million is an item we put in in order to cover some expected replacement costs over the next number of months. The decrease really represents the decrease in federal funding for equipment, which is one we hope to continue negotiating with the federal government in order to have a bigger number in there for the rest of the year.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Would the minister have any idea how many requests have come before the department from the district health authorities for medical

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equipment to date? How does that stack up, the number of requests and the amount of those requests, how does that stack up with the $2 million budget this year?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, of course we ask our DHAs to basically underline their top three priorities for replacement, to bring the ones that are ready to, well, kick the bucket, for lack of a better term. We have about three requests in right now that are in around the $2 million to $3 million range.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): So if that's the case, you already have more requests in than you've actually budgeted for. Without knowing specific figures, but from what you've indicated today, the amount would be more than the $2 million. I understand you're saying you're negotiating with Ottawa, with the federal government, that you'll have more money there, but as it stands right now, you don't. You only have $2 million that has been budgeted, but the requests that have come in from the DHAs now are more than the $2 million you have budgeted. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Right now, the immediate pressures are at the $2 million range. We do have a couple of things we're aware of that might be in the over range, but we're hopeful that within the DHA funding, within our funding, we should be able to maintain the system as it stands today.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): That was quite the answer, I must admit. That was one of the best I've heard so far in this Chamber and I've heard quite a few answers. What I didn't hear was - let me read this into it, what you're telling me now is that you haven't budgeted enough on that line item and now you're depending on district health authorities to use their budgets to just maintain this equipment or perhaps purchase new stuff while you wait for Ottawa to come through with more money for equipment - money that you're not sure right now is even coming.

What happens if another piece of equipment breaks down at whatever district health authority? Have you left any room there at all for emergencies? Obviously not, because the $2 million you've said is already eaten up by the current requests. So what do you do if something pops up?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, ultimately we are still in a budget-type thing. We're trying to make sure we use every dollar to the utmost. We felt that from the request coming from the DHAs with the equipment capital and equipment monies they had within their budgets, that should be sufficient for this year in order to maintain the system at current levels.

Of course, we still are bringing on line a number of new MRIs, we're bringing on line a number of pieces of equipment as we speak, and we will continue to invest in

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new equipment across the system. Right now, on replacement and new equipment, we budgeted the $2 million and we do feel that will be adequate for the near term.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I'm glad that you mentioned the MRIs. It's ironic, I was just going to get to those, so I'll skip right to the next item because a couple of years ago there was an announcement made that there was funding from the federal government, the federal Liberal Government at the time, with respect to MRIs. Four were announced, one was for Kentville, Yarmouth, New Glasgow and Antigonish. A year later, there was a supplier that was selected and these four MRIs then turned into six MRIs, with two coming, as well, to the Capital District. So my question for the minister is, are any or all of those MRIs up and running in the original four areas, that being Kentville, Yarmouth, New Glasgow, and Antigonish?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, back when we originally made the order and made the decision to purchase new MRIs for the province, we were in the line for five through group purchasing. I think it was a partnership with Ontario, at that time, to purchase these new machines. So we were able to basically squeeze another MRI out of it, which is, I think, good news for all Nova Scotia.

When it comes to the implementation, the replacement, of course we are replacing two here in metro Halifax, HRM, and then installing new ones across the system. My understanding right now is that they will be in-house, I think, by the end of summer; if not, early Fall. I believe Yarmouth is getting close to its operational date, where they do have the facility ready to install it. What we had was an issue with the machines themselves, where there was a new machine coming available with new software, we wanted to make sure we had the up-to-date machine possible, so that did delay it by a few weeks.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for his answer. Even though it was a couple of years ago the announcement was made, as of today, none of those MRIs in the four original areas are up and running. None of those are up and running. Has all the necessary staff been hired for those MRIs in those four areas mentioned?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, as we're planning to have all those MRIs on line by the end of December, there has been training going on with the existing staff at the hospitals in question. Also, there has been some extra staffing put on, and $3 million has been put in for training and new staff in order to run these MRIs.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, when the minister gets up again maybe he can clarify, I thought he said there has been new staff hired. So maybe he could clarify where. The original announcement was those four areas: Kentville,

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Yarmouth, New Glasgow and Antigonish. The two MRIs in the Capital District, can the minister tell us, are they operational as of yet?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, no, the MRIs in Halifax are not installed yet. We felt it would probably be best to install those last so we don't have interruption in service across the system, because our wait list there, of course, is one of our long ones and we want to make sure we don't disrupt that more than we have to as these get installed across the system.

The hiring has been happening over the last year or so, in particular DHAs. I'm not too sure which ones have had their staffing increased. I can get that information for him, if he wants. Ultimately, there has been some training going on over the near term. I know there are two or three technologists within Yarmouth who have been going to, I believe, Manitoba to get their training done on these new pieces of equipment.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate that information, Mr. Minister, on staffing levels and in what DHAs, and whether or not they are new staff who are being hired on and trained, or whether they are existing staff being trained. I'm going to ask you a further question, just on the Capital District. You said you're leaving them until the end. You've indicated that the other areas won't come on until perhaps late Fall. So are you saying that it will be late Fall or early next year that the two MRIs will be operational in the Capital District?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, as we said, by the end of December all MRIs will be functioning within the DHAs, so within the outer districts, and hopefully soon after those are operational, we can start the replacement of the ones in Capital District, as those will be just strict replacements, popping one machine up, popping the other machine back in, doing the correct connections. So those should be operational pretty soon, after the other four are on line in the province.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, before I leave that subject, perhaps, to me, anyway, I don't know, the minister may be able to explain this. The longest, the biggest waiting lists are in Capital District. So if you had two MRIs that would help alleviate that waiting list, why wouldn't you install those MRIs first in the Capital District to help cut down that waiting list, instead of waiting in Kentville, Yarmouth, New Glasgow and Antigonish. Not that those areas don't deserve MRIs, but why wouldn't you go where your biggest lists are first?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member for Glace Bay, simply, the large number of people on the wait list here in HRM are, of course, from those areas. So by getting the MRIs installed in those hospitals in Yarmouth, Kentville,

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Antigonish and New Glasgow, the wait list in HRM will go down dramatically and then give us the time to replace one, and then the other MRI here in HRM.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): It wouldn't happen to be now because you're not having problems finding staff in the other areas? That wouldn't be part of the problem, because it was anticipated that there were some areas in the province that you were putting MRIs in that had absolutely no staff whatsoever who could operate those MRIs. So all of the areas in the province that were identified a few years ago as to where the MRIs were going, you now have staff who are capable of operating those MRIs, is that correct?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, yes, we do have staff in those areas to run those MRIs. There have been two things, of course, that have had to happen: training, hiring new professionals in order to take up those machines; as well as renovations to the hospitals they will being going into. I know there have been a number of places that have to fully renovate certain areas because, of course, these are heavy machines and the correct renovations had to be done. So there have been two pieces that have been holding this issue up, including the purchase itself, to make sure that we have the most up-to-date machines possible.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I'll buy the minister's explanation on that for now, but it would still seem to me, even if you are servicing people from those other areas where you have the largest waiting list - is the minister saying that after those two MRIs go into Halifax, in the Capital District, and all the rest go into Kentville, Yarmouth, New Glasgow and Antigonish, surely the minister is not saying you will have cut down the wait lists in the Capital District to the point where maybe you don't need all of the MRIs that you now have in the Capital District.

Do you understand my line of thinking there, because if that's the case, then (Interruptions)

[1:15 p.m.]

Well, it's not a conspiracy theory. What it is, when you're thinking ahead, the minister is telling us right now that because this takes so long, and you are not doing them until last in the Capital District because you want to do them first here to cut down on those waiting lists, I would suggest - and I'm not sure, I'd have to look at the figures - that the majority of those waiting lists in Capital District don't come from those other areas, from Kentville, Yarmouth, and I'm sure there's some of it, but I'm talking about the majority of it, I'm almost certain, would be from the Capital District and surrounding districts in that area.

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Anyway, we'll move on and keep a close eye on the situation with MRIs. Mr. Minister, I know it takes time with capital projects, and I know the complexity of these machines, or at least on the surface anyway, it does take time to make sure things are done right and to make sure they have the proper room and the proper staff to go with them, but it was over a couple of years ago that these announcements were made. The minister knows, and we all know the importance of these machines in diagnostic health care, which is extremely important in some cases, and can mean life or death, in some instances, to a lot of patients. We appreciate the importance of this whole topic.

Mr. Minister, on Page 11.19 of the Supplementary Detail, it's kind of interesting. It deals with what's called Funded Staff, the staff complement for Other Health Care Initiatives, Other Programs and Care Coordination - Service Delivery. They are all decreasing from 2005-06 to 2006-07. The only area where the staff complement is actually going up and increasing from estimate to estimate is in administration.

Now, Mr. Minister, I find it a bit ironic because if you look back to 1999, which in my previous remarks was a date that was often brought up, it was a Progressive Conservative Government that promised less administration. So with the increases in administration, perhaps the minister could elaborate, where will there be increases in administration and why do we have those increases?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, on that item, if we look at estimate to estimate, which is about an increase of six people, we are looking at a number of different items. Some of them have to do with infrastructure management. We need a project consultant for that, for the management of the hospitals and the renovations and those kinds of things that would go to maintaining the structures we have today. Senior policy initiatives and planning development officer, we're looking at two positions there. The planning development officer, continuing care administration, making sure that we have the correct staffing there. We are trying to put in a diversity coordinator, and also a manager for the Provincial Blood Coordinating Program. So from estimate to estimate, I'm sure it shows a slight increase. We had, over the last year, a number of vacant positions that we are trying desperately to fill.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned, the Other Health Care Initiatives, the Other Programs and Care Coordination, are all going down, they are all decreasing. Maybe the minister could indicate and elaborate further as to where the actual decreases are, and why are those decreases occurring?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, I think some of the decreases we see there, Other Health Care Initiatives, Other Programs, just basically shows a readjustment of programs that have come to their end and the staffing is no longer needed. Also, under the Care Coordination piece where you're seeing a re-organization of the department,

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that's just more reflective of the actual people in place and a couple of added positions there. So it's just a re-organization of the department.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Minister. Let me ask you some questions now dealing with the Wait Times Reduction Fund. In 2004-05, government received over $18 million in the form of a Wait Times Reduction Fund; again, last fiscal year another $18 million; and this fiscal year over $34 million. So in total, over the last three fiscal years, some $70 million has flowed into this province in the form of a fund that is intended to be used to reduce health care wait times.

Now, with the wait times data that's coming out of this province, I think one could easily assume that not one red cent is being spent to specifically address that issue. So could the minister please outline where the $36 million was spent and where he intends to spend $34 million this year?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, any initiative, at this point, that we put into the Department of Health helps wait times, such as the Continuing Care Strategy, as we move people into the correct facilities in order to free up time in acute care hospitals - working at the primary health care level, making sure that we have the correct type of supports in the community - it helps wait times at the back end.

More specifically on the $18 million, we are looking at issues of oncology, increasing the funding there, dialysis, mental health, the cardiac cath lab, general med and surgeries. So these are our fundings that are going directly into the system, which are in some cases helping out on the wait times. Are we there yet? Absolutely not. Are we going to get there? I certainly hope so.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, the minister knows full well that this is money that came in the form of a wait times reduction fund. If you're saying that money has gone into the acute care sector, then perhaps you can tell us, you know, specifically, what specific wait times reduction projects you've funded when you gave the money to the DHAs to reduce wait times. Can you tell us that then, what are the specific projects that you have funded with the wait times money?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: We're just making a quick edit because that funding went into a lot of initiatives to make sure we have the correct fundings in place: $5 million went to our cardiac care in this province and making sure that we have the correct type of professionals and the types of systems involved; $6.7 million went into our orthopaedics program in order to help the wait lists there; $3 million went into oncology in order to make sure that we have the correct professionals and drugs. Actually I think that number, if you add up within our own funding, is about $12 million this year alone. So we want to make sure that those are there.

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Any investment coming from this funding that goes into our system specifically for programs as I've underlined, helps out in the wait times and, of course, there are other wait times initiatives that we're working on such as the data collection through the Web site, such as the purchasing of certain IT solutions to make sure that we have the flow of information. I hope to be investing over the next year into some similar types of programs right across the system to improve wait times.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Minister, it's some $70 million. That's a pretty large sum of money, and you've just listed a few smaller instances of where that has gone. I'm not accusing the minister of being vague on this issue or trying to skate around it, but if you have that money, and I'm sure there are other people who are thinking along the same lines that I am, either you sink the money into the acute care system or wait times reduction, you fund specific wait times reduction projects, or you're not spending any of the money at all and you're just sitting on it.

So, you know, I guess what I'm asking, Mr. Minister, is which is it? Are you sinking that money into the acute care sector? Have you specifically come up with a wait times reduction plan for which you'll spend this money, or is the money just sitting around at the Department of Finance not being spent at all?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, we are currently still developing a wait times strategy and working with our wait times committee. That committee is coming up with a number of recommendations that include everything from investment in oncology to investment in IT solutions across the system.

I'm going to list off some things where we've spent in last year, which is 2005-06, which we feel are investments into places where we've been having wait lines that are unacceptable, and I think that our investments in those areas have helped out in those areas. That's the whole idea of this, is to make sure that we invest in places that are going to help out the patients in Nova Scotia.

If anyone has a pen, here you go: $2.526 million, oncology; $4.75 million in orthopaedics; $1.4 million in expansion of emergency rooms; $683,000 in dialysis; $800,000 in mental health; $4.9 million to the cardiac cath lab; and $2.94 million in general medical and surgery, all of these impacted wait times as per the program.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you Mr. Minister. I know those are some of the items, not that my math is good, but if I did a quick calculation there I'd still be under about maybe $15 million. Again I go back to the original figure, there has been some $70 million that has come into this province in the form of a fund that's intended to use to reduce health care wait times. Even if we added up all those figures there, you're still looking at a huge amount of money. All I'm asking right now is, where is that

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money? Given that the department budget for the Department of Health has increased by an amount that is less than the amount that the department is receiving this year in the form of the Wait Times Reduction Fund, then not all the money is being spent. It's quite clear not all the money is being spent and I'm asking the minister why. Is it perhaps because you really don't have a plan to address the issue of wait times in this province?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member opposite, as I just stated in the last answer, we're still waiting for our full wait times plan and we're hoping to have that within the next few weeks. The recommendations, as I've said, have a whole range of things including a lot of IT infrastructure that we're going to have to increase. This $18 million per year is not accumulative, so if we don't spend it we don't get it.

I can say that in 2004-05, if we can get our calculators out once again, we've spent $2.56 million on oncology; $4.75 million on orthopaedics; $1.4 million in emergency room; $683,000 on dialysis; $800,000 on mental health; $4.9 million on cardiac cath lab; $2.4 million in general medical and surgery. Again, that's $18 million total if anyone was doing their addition on their calculators. We felt over the two years that these are the things that we're aware of to spend, to make sure that we have some investment in places where we know we're going to have to spend our money because of our previous work.

I think it's incumbent to make sure that we have the best strategy possible and our wait times committee will be coming with suggestions within the next few weeks so we can go on and invest in solutions that make wait times better here in Nova Scotia. Also let's not forget that wait times are not just an issue here in Nova Scotia but they're right across the country, and we want to make sure that we learn from other jurisdictions as well and hopefully make the health care system better for all Canadians.

[1:30 p.m.]

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I apologize for my math, as I said it wasn't that great. The minister upped it by about $3 million, but still at the same time wait times are not a new issue. Wait times just didn't start to occur when you became Minister of Health. Wait times have been around for quite some time now, and your previous ministers have done absolutely nothing to try to solve the problem that still exists there. One would ask the question, if you're not spending all of the money and you said, maybe it didn't come in the form unless you had identified something for it, then surely one would ask the question, why haven't you identified something in terms of wait times when you know it exists there?

The Nova Scotia data shows, and it's clear, that what's happening in this province is not a solution to wait times in health care. You know where the problems are, you

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know that they exist. What I'm asking is if you didn't have a plan, that's perhaps why you didn't identify the areas that the money should be spent on. If you did have a plan and stopped wasting time on this issue and put a plan in place, then you could be spending money that's coming to you from the federal government, money that has been earmarked specifically for wait time reduction and to reduce health care wait times. This is a lot of money that's been handed to you on a platter, so to speak, by the federal government; this is money that is specifically earmarked for that purpose.

So again, Mr. Minister, any initiative in this province that goes toward - and you've listed a few of them - the reduction of wait times is a welcome initiative, there's no question of that. But what I'm asking now is, is there a lot of money out there that perhaps isn't being utilized, isn't being used because of the fact that we do not have a plan in place to address the issue of wait times?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the honourable member. I can assure the member opposite that we're spending the $18 million and a lot more money in order to improve wait times here in Nova Scotia. Are we there yet? No. Are we going to get there? I certainly hope so.

We will continue to work on our initiatives, the ones I just spoke of, and identify the number of programs, the investments in oncology, the investments in cardiac care, the investments in emergency rooms, in order to make sure that we have the staffing there in place, in order to see the people, in order to have the equipment necessary to do those procedures, as well as having the IT infrastructure.

We are currently still working with our wait time strategy committee and waiting for those recommendations to come back. I can assure the member opposite that every cent is being spent on wait time improvement, and a whole bunch more.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I don't have much time left - I guess about nine minutes or so - and there are a couple of questions I want to ask the minister in his final minutes of estimates. One had to deal with a catastrophic drug plan for Nova Scotia. When exactly are we going to see a catastrophic drug plan in place in this province?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, through you to the member for Glace Bay. I thank him for that question, because it's one that I'm very happy to be working on with my provincial counterparts across the country, as we work on our national Pharmacare strategy. Within it, we'd be looking at expensive drugs for rare diseases, as well as a catastrophic drug plan. I'm hoping that as we have the document prepared and brought to First Ministers that we'll be having a true design phase happening over the next year. So I'm hoping early next fiscal, or the second quarter of next fiscal, that we

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would have a true Pharmacare Program for folks who don't have them here in Nova Scotia.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Minister, it's my understanding that that was supposed to be done about a month ago. So now you're saying that this will be further delayed - for how long, for another year, perhaps, that we're into another fiscal year before we would actually see it? I know the minister understands the importance of this, because I know he knows there are a lot of people in a situation here - and we understand we're dealing with a lot of money, but still there are a lot of people here who are at risk. It's my understanding that the timetable should have been a lot sooner than what the minister has indicated. Is that the case?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, within the process we're talking about probably three different items here when we talk about catastrophic drug coverage. One of them is expensive drugs for rare diseases, which is the discussion we're having under the MPS with the federal government and other provinces; there is the working families drug plan, which the Premier announced during the election, and one we want to make sure we have ready for next fiscal; and there's also the national catastrophic drug program.

There are a lot of initiatives going on. I think what the member opposite is talking about is that the First Ministers had asked the provincial ministers to come up with a national drug strategy, or Pharmacare strategy. That information was to be complete - as it was last week as I sat with my counterparts in Fredericton - to be delivered and presented to the First Ministers at their meeting in Newfoundland and Labrador at the end of this month.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Minister, let me be more specific. I think you're blending some things together there. In particular, I'm talking about the catastrophic drugs - for instance, Fabry's disease. I think the people who have been lobbying on behalf of that association - you had indicated at one point anyway that perhaps it would be as early as last month that something would be in place to take care of that, and we're talking I think a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year in order to cover patients in this case, so could you specifically give me a for instance on that case involving Fabry's disease?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I think he, too, is blending a couple of things together. (Interruption) Well, we'll talk about a couple of things here. Within the whole national Pharmacare strategy, which is one that provincial ministers through the council federation have asked provincial ministers to come forward with, through that there are a number of things we are talking about: a universal catastrophic drug coverage program; EDRD, or expensive drugs for rare diseases; drug safety; the national formulary; as well

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as the national purchasing and pricing program. So there is a big strategy going on there that we're trying to do provincially.

When it comes to the Fabry's issue - and I think that's where we're heading a little bit - we wanted to make sure that everything was in line, it was a negotiation that took far longer than we would have wanted, far longer than the people with that illness would have wanted, but I can say to the member opposite we are hoping to have an announcement on that. I was hoping to have it a month and a half ago, but we were still waiting on a few of our partners to sign off on their documents. I wish I could say it, but I can't - but we've been working with the doctor involved and making sure that we have the orderings done, so when we can make that announcement in the next few weeks we can get those people on those enzyme therapies as they should.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): That's specifically what I was talking about, although you haven't nailed down a date. It seems like every time these people get that close to within having a solution to that problem something happens, usually it's an election, whether it's federally or provincially, and the next thing you know the rug is pulled out from underneath and there's no solution. As you've indicated, the only solution here is to make sure that those people get that enzyme therapy that they require. It's a real serious concern, so I would have preferred to hear a date and that is the one that I was talking about, which about a month or so ago the indications had been anyway that it would be taken care of - hopefully within months, we'll say?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Within days.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Within days? I'll ask that specifically on the record then, Mr. Minister. Will we be hearing something about that perhaps within days?

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Boy, am I getting out on a limb here, but I'm going to commit to days because there has been a tripartite discussion here, there has to have been three Parties agreeing, and I believe that all Parties have signed off on it so we're just waiting for some paperwork. So I'm hoping within days we can make the announcement on Fabry's.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Mr. Minister, I'm sure we're all happy to hear that kind of commitment that you've made in the House today, and certainly it'll go a long way in solving that problem.

I only have perhaps a minute and a half left, or whatever, and I wanted to take the opportunity to thank the minister and his staff for appearing before us in estimates. It's always a tough task and a gruelling experience to go through estimates, not only for the minister but more in particular for his staff, as a matter of fact, who provide him with the many answers that are there.

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Mr. Minister, I think from the 12 hours that the NDP caucus and our caucus have asked you those questions you are of the understanding that the whole issue of health care in this province is one that we're not looking for immediate answers, but we know there are some answers out there which have to be found in order to ensure that every Nova Scotian gets the health care that they deserve in this province. We know and we expect from any Health Minister, from any government, that no stone will go unturned in trying to find a solution to some of the problems that we are now experiencing in health care in our province, and we trust that indeed you and your department will do your utmost to make sure that it occurs.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I will wrap up my comments during this estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Health, for any closing remarks.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I also want to thank the members opposite for their questioning, for their patience with me. As they are very well aware, these are my first estimates with the Department of Health. My last, I think the longest estimates I was able to do with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries was four hours. So this has proved to be quite different and very interesting. I'm hoping that we provided the best answers possible, and we still have some further information to provide to members opposite. I want to thank my staff, as well, for being here with me.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E9 stand.

Resolution E9 stands.

Resolution E15 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $25,114,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Executive Council, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E15 carry?

Resolution E15 is carried.

That concludes the debate on the estimates of the Department of Health.

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: Mr. Chairman, are we having a short recess prior to the estimates from the Minister of Education?

MR. CHAIRMAN: A short recess prior to the estimates for Education.

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Is it agreed?

It is agreed. (Interruption)

Yes, just before we break, the member for Dartmouth North has an introduction.

The honourable member for Dartmouth North.

MR. TREVOR ZINCK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to rise in the House to acknowledge one of the constituents of Dartmouth North. Douglas Day, if you would stand please. Everywhere you go in Dartmouth North, everybody recognizes Doug Day for all his volunteer work and his commitment to the community, particularly every year during the Polish Festival. So I would like to join all the members in applauding and acknowledging Doug Day today. (Applause)

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will recess for 10 minutes.

[1:45 p.m. The committee recessed.]

[1:54 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Just for further clarification on the Department of Health estimates, the portion of Resolution E15 moved was $642,000 for Acadian Affairs.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

We will now call the estimates of the Department of Education.

Resolution E3 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $1,138,222,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Education, pursuant to the Estimate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education.

HON. KAREN CASEY: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to open the estimate debates for the Department of Education. Preparing for this debate has been a wonderful experience. I've had the portfolio for 13 days - this would be called immersion. I've quickly learned that this is a good-news budget, and it's good for all students of all ages in Nova Scotia. I do trust that all members of this House will understand and hopefully appreciate that I do not have all of the answers at this time, but

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I will make a commitment to them that we will seek the answers and, if they're not available from staff today, we'll provide them later, as requested.

The Education budget, including assistance to universities, accounts for the second-largest departmental budget in this government - that's a $1.37 billion commitment to learning in Nova Scotia. This fact alone confirms the importance that members of this government place on education, on educating our children, our youth and our adults. Education is an investment in our future, in our prosperity and in Nova Scotia. As Minister of Education, I commit to the members here today and to all Nova Scotians that our department will remain open and accountable to the people of this province. This government has accomplished a lot since 1999, and we will continue to make education a high priority.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to, if I could, introduce the staff on whom I will be relying a lot during the next eight hours, and during the months ahead. Dennis Cochrane to my left, Deputy Minister of Education; Darrell Youden to my right, Senior Executive Director of Corporate Services; and in the gallery Kevin Finch and Ben McIntyre. I thank them for their support.

While this is a debate on the department's intended investments in Education as contained in the 2006-07 budget, some questions may focus on programs, initiatives and investments over the past year. Mr. Chairman, if I could, my comments will address some of those activities.

Last year, we successfully launched a pilot for a pre-Primary program in 19 schools across the province. This is a first for Atlantic Canada, and the initial response has been positive. We took steps to guarantee labour stability in our schools by negotiating a new contract with the Nova Scotia Teachers Union and the 10,000 teachers that union represents. Class sizes for Primary to Grade 2 were capped at 25 students, and we will extend that cap to include all elementary grades over the next four years. These are but a few of the initiatives we have introduced and will continue in the future.

For 2006-07, we are forecasting an $85 million increase in the budget for the Department of Education. This breaks down into $63.8 million more for public education, post-secondary education, and skills in learning, and an additional $21.2 million for assistance to universities. The P-12 system, for example, will see increased funding by approximately 6 per cent. This is well above inflation, and this is happening at the time when we have declining enrolments, enrolments decreasing by 2.3 per cent. This translates into more support, either directly or indirectly, to our students.

School boards have had a long-standing concern over equitable distribution of funding, and the department is responding to those concerns. The Hogg report reviewed the funding issue and recommended that funds should be reallocated among school

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boards. That means taking existing dollars and reallocating them. But we, as a government, could not accept this premise. This reallocation could have had some boards experience a decrease in funding and this in turn, we felt, could have affected the supports and programs we deliver to our students.

After extensive consultation with the school boards, this government committed to maintaining and funding for the boards that would have seen decreases, and to begin to transfer additional funds to those boards that should have had increases. By doing this, we believe that we were ensuring boards will have the funding they need to get the job done and that no student would be negatively impacted by the distribution of those funds. Boards are pleased with the additional funding in the 2006-07 proposed budget and, in fact, that expression has come to our department from the Nova Scotia School Boards Association earlier this year.

The department's multi-year strategy for public education is called Learning for Life II, and there will be reference to that throughout the budget presentations. Learning for Life II is a vision and a commitment for the future of our students. There are six themes contained in that strategy: Raising the Bar; Closing the Gap; Developing Healthy and Active Learners; Providing Time to Teach and Time to Learn; Measuring and Reporting on Success; and Strengthening Partnerships.

[2:00 p.m.]

Raising the Bar. Raising the Bar is designed to improve both school and student achievements, and this will happen through such programs and initiatives as the school accreditation program, we will be providing more mentors and supports for math and language arts teachers, and we will be improving our French as a Second Language programs. We will also be introducing an International Baccalaureate Program to more schools across the province.

Closing the Gap. Closing the Gap is designed for students who are not succeeding in the public school system, and we will provide such students with more options. To that end, we are pleased to include the extension of the Tuition Support Program to a third year. This will allow students with special needs to attend a designated private school when it's determined that such an intervention would help "close the gap" and prepare the students for re-entry back into the public school system.

Another exciting program, which is called the O2, or Options and Opportunities, will provide comprehensive educational programs that will help bridge high school to post-secondary education and/or work destinations for every student. Successful programs currently exist in some of our boards, and this program will build on those successes. All school boards will have some high schools offering O2 this fall. There will be 27 schools in total.

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The third theme is Developing Healthy and Active Learners and it is designed to ensure that students become better, more engaged learners at school, and healthier Nova Scotians for life. The Department of Health Promotion and Protection provides financial support for this initiative delivered in our schools. Each school board now has a consultant to lead and support these programs at the board level, and they will work closely with teachers and other staff. Providing education and raising awareness of students regarding their health and their lifestyles is our goal and it will help students make better choices.

The fourth theme, Providing Time to Teach and Time to Learn, will focus on student readiness to learn and will include the continuation of the pre-Primary pilot for four-year-old children, which began this year in 19 sites. The students from the first year of that program will be entering our Primary in September of this year and their progress will be monitored throughout the year. In addition, how instructional time is used will be revisited, and required times per day for instruction in math and language arts will be identified.

The fifth theme, Measuring and Reporting on Success - mathematics and literacy assessments will be conducted in Grades 3, 6 and 9, and these assessments will be developed by Nova Scotia teachers for Nova Scotia students, based on the Nova Scotia curriculum. The Minister's Report to Parents will be the primary source of sharing that student achievement data with our publics.

The last theme, Strengthening Partnerships, recognizes in public education our work with school boards, parents, teachers, students, communities, and the support for school advisory councils, for example, will be continued. The Learning for Life II is a solid plan, evidence-based, and reflects extensive consultation with parents, teachers and others. But our planned improvements do extend beyond the P to 12 system into post-secondary education - within the Budget Estimates for 2006-07 our community colleges will receive more than $6 million in new money, a 7.4 per cent increase in the funding over last year, and we will add 321 new seats at the Nova Scotia Community College, and this is all part of the $123 million investment in our community college system, including the new campus in Dartmouth.

Last Spring the government provided $4.75 million to support the development of NSCAD University Port Campus. We are building new schools and college campuses and renovating existing institutions to provide students with safe and healthy learning environments, but a subject related to school construction is that of school closure and, as promised, the review of regulations under the Education Act will begin this Fall with the report due in early 2007. With the exception of one school from the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board that has been closed for safety reasons, no additional school closures are expected before 2008.

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As students migrate from our public school system to post-secondary education, they can be confident that the province is taking steps to make a college or a university education more affordable for more Nova Scotians. The province signed a memorandum of understanding with its universities in late 2004, and this MOU provides predicable and stable funding for our institutions and in return for that provides a 3.9 per cent cap on tuition increases for most students. In fact, Statistics Canada recently reported that Nova Scotia had the lowest tuition increases in the Maritime Provinces - proof that our MOU is working.

The Millennium Access Grant program was announced one year ago and this program, in partnership with the Canadian Millennium Scholarship Foundation, opens the door to a college or a university education for students from low-income families. We are reducing the parental contribution and doubling the employment and repayment bonuses under the Debt Reduction Program.

Our government continues its support for public libraries across the province. There was a $10.8 million support at the end of last year. We were able to provide them with an additional $1 million. School libraries have received targeted funding to be used to refresh their school library resources and to address staffing of school libraries with library technicians.

There is another significant element of the department that must be discussed and that is the Skills and Learning Branch. This division offers a number of programs and initiatives that are designed to promote the skills trades and lifelong learning in our province. This year's budget will support many initiatives that maximize opportunities for our young people while developing a skilled workforce for our province. A $174,000 funding increase will help the One Journey - Work and Learn program which identifies specific industries in need of employees, and works with industry to train and provide employment for Nova Scotians who were previously on income assistance. Additional investments will support youth apprentices and attract more apprentices to the skilled trades.

The Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning continues to have success in providing a wide range of education programs designed for adults who want to improve their reading and math skills, or to complete their high school diploma. These programs are offered at more than 170 sites across the province, and this year alone more than 500 Nova Scotians earned a high school graduation diploma for adults.

So, Mr. Chairman, if I could recap. The Department of Education's budget will increase by $85 million, to a total of $1.37 billion. This includes priorities that were identified in our election platform. I would like to remind members of those priorities.

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We will initiate a multi-year program to make university education more affordable to our students; extend the public class size reductions up to and including Grade 6; introduce vocational and composite programming in our high schools; provide more support for ESL, English as a Second Language; increase investments in public school and university infrastructure on a needs basis; begin consultation on the second phase of the Nova Scotia Community College's growth plan; extend the province's tuition support program to three years; expand the number of international baccalaureate sites; continue to act upon the conclusions of the Black Learners Advisory Committee Report; expand the Skills Nova Scotia Framework to address the looming skills shortage in this province; ensure community welfare and student benefits are legislated criteria for school boards when they consider the future of schools with declining enrolments; review the bus transportation criteria to ensure young children are not walking too far or in unsafe conditions to their schools; make physical education a mandatory high school credit; and eliminate the need for not-for-profit groups and organizations to buy insurance when they use school buildings for recreational and community events.

These were the priorities identified in our platform and we, as a government, are committed to those priorities.

While spending per student is a useful benchmark, it should not be the only benchmark for assessing the quality of education. Per-student spending in Nova Scotia may lag behind some other provinces, but it's important to note that our pupil/teacher ratio matches the national average. Our province has a well-qualified and dedicated team of teachers who are making commitments to their students every day. They are the front-line educators who make a difference in the lives of thousands of students across this province. I'm proud of the contribution that they are making.

This concludes the introduction to the budget estimates. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are ready for the questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, try Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. CHAIRMAN: My apologies. The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: I'm the better looking, more athletic one. Thank you, that's okay, Mr. Chairman, not a problem.

Thank you for your introductory comments, Madam Minister. I want to welcome to the historic Chamber some familiar faces. Of course, across the way, not that I always

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agreed with them, but let me tell you, there's no one more accountable in this province than Dennis Cochrane. He's always available. At times, I think, maybe the media thinks he's too available. It has been a pleasure working with the people in your staff, Madam Minister, and I look forward to a continued positive relationship when it comes to some of the important things that we deal with in Education. My compliments to you, Madam Minister, on a 13-day learning slope, and I meant, like, you're going up the scope, and I know where you're coming from in that particular vocation.

Many of my comments, of course, as probably one of your predecessors tell you, comes from my own experience, or from people I hear from. I have heard from some people, I've heard from Grace Rogers, who recently retired as the librarian at Sir John A. Macdonald High School. I'm going to bring a few of Grace's comments to you. I've heard from Jim MacFarlane, who was the principal at Fairview Junior High, and he wants me to bring some of his concerns to your attention. But since you've become the minister, I would assume that you have heard from some of your colleagues in schools you've worked with in the past. I'm wondering, these people whom you've worked with in previous positions during your career, what have they been asking you to put as a top priority as the Minister of Education?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, when teachers and principals and parents are talking to me about education, their one request is that any and all supports are there to serve the needs of all students through all grades, and if we err on the side of the students, we cannot be faulted.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, I can't say that I have that consistency because, as we well know as people who have taught in this school system, everybody has strong opinions on something. When it comes to certain issues, they are going to make sure when issues are brought forward, whether publicly by their MLA or the critic for a particular responsibility, I think it's always incumbent upon us to make sure we are there to bring forward certain concerns.

I'd like to begin with an issue that's of major concern to many of my colleagues, to some teachers in my community of Timberlea-Prospect and, I would say, probably across the province - a concern that resonates from classroom teachers from one end of the province to the other - and that is the growing violence in our schools. Violence in our schools that results in the fact that on certain occasions, for various reasons, there have to be students who end up being suspended from school and they have the privilege of attending their school removed from them for a period of time.

This had been an escalating problem. It has been a concern that educators, vice-principals, principals, guidance counsellors, parents and many Grade 12 students point out the fact there is a growing trend within our schools that more and more problems are solved in a violent manner by students enrolled in the school system.

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In November of last year, in fact November 11, 2005, Amy Smith, the provincial reporter for The ChronicleHerald, covered the release of some statistics that the researcher for the NDP, Lorraine Glendenning, had very conscientiously gone about collecting from the boards around this province. Ms. Glendenning, recently coming here from Ireland, she got her induction by fire when I said to her after she received the job, the first task I'd like to know is, how many students are suspended around this province?

I thought it was a pretty simple question. I thought you called the Department of Education up and asked, what are the statistics? Tell me who has been suspended, for what reasons, how many times?

[2:15 p.m.]

That just didn't happen. Ms. Glendenning called me back about two days later and said, this is an impossible task. There is a complete lack of consistency across this province and no matter what the minister is saying about tracking results, there is no such thing underway in this province.

So here we have very anecdotal comments about violence in our schools, but we don't have the statistical results to say how many students have been suspended for what reason, over what duration of time. So, of course, the press release was issued, the numbers were eventually gathered and, to Ms. Glendenning's credit, she did eventually track down the huge majority of numbers.

But in the report Ms. Smith brought forward in The ChronicleHerald on November 11^th, the headline says: Muir questions NDP figures. I'm going to quote from it - and I can table this document if you're interested: Education Minister Jamie Muir is questioning NDP figures on student suspensions, but the minister isn't offering up any numbers of his own.

So as someone with 13 days on the job, can you tell me about the tracking of suspension numbers? When will we ever be able to get a real handle on suspension numbers from one end of this province to the other?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. Recognizing student violence and bullying and inappropriate behaviour in schools is stressful to teachers, there's no denying that, and what school boards are looking to do with the support of the department is to gather these statistics you speak of and to look at putting in place some initiatives that will help better track that.

For example, we are currently looking at a student information system which will do that. It will track the number of incidents in a school, the number of times, for example, that a student is sent to the office, the nature of the infraction, and the outcome

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of that. That information will be readily available and it will be on a provincial system for tracking. That is not in the short term, but that is in the plan, and schools will be in-serviced and administrators and guidance counsellors will be in-serviced as to how they follow through with that tracking system and what they record and how it's recorded. So we recognize that the safety of our teachers and our students is a concern, and we'll be working with the boards to try to address that.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, that response isn't what I'm looking for. I've heard this thing before from your predecessors. We all hear of the anecdotal comments, the subjective analyses, and I will tell you there's a lack of consistency from one end of this province to the other when it comes to what is inappropriate action or inappropriate language for length of suspensions in what particular board or what particular school.

This isn't rocket science. What's wrong with having the numbers centralized in the department? Why does one researcher for one political Party have to take almost five weeks of her new life in Canada, as she comes in from Ireland, that she's working for the NDP caucus doing work that basically should be in the Trade Mart Building and should be there and be ready to be analyzed? That doesn't seem to be rocket science to me. I mean, it takes a phone call to a particular CEO or superintendent saying, we need these numbers, how are you tracking them? What are you, at this stage, looking at when it comes to consistency, because as we well know it differs from one school to another school; it differs from one board to another board.

I heard your answer - it will be looked at, it will be tracked. How long will this take, because if we have the problem in our school system and if we have the problem which we believe we have when it comes to out-of-control children who are taking a disproportionate amount of time, what's the problem with getting the numbers together to conclusively prove, yes, in certain boards, in certain schools, there are issues?

I can tell the minister opposite, and I think your staff will tell you too, there are school principals who are pretty devious, and I'll use that term, devious - when I'm in the Legislature, I guess I could say such a thing - they're pretty devious when it comes to the fact, and they say, oh, we don't suspend anybody in our school. No, there hasn't been anybody suspended. Well, I mean, they're misbehaving teenagers, if you're in a junior high school, in particular, what do you mean, they're not being suspended? Do they have in-school suspensions? Oh, well, yes, we have in-school suspensions; oh, yes, but we provide homework for them. So you suspend students.

That lack of consistency from school to school and board to board is a glaring error. I know we're just starting off this hour, but I'm basically quite sick and tired of saying the tracking will take place. The tracking should have taken place, and it should

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be taking place now. Can you give me any specific guidelines when we could be looking forward to receiving the specifics of this information?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, a couple of points. Three years ago there was a code of student conduct that was developed provincially and provided to all school boards to be implemented, and that code of student conduct does address some of those inappropriate behaviours. More specific to the tracking, we have a commitment in our budget this year of $415,000 to work towards developing that student information system so that those kinds of statistics can be recorded, and administrators in the boards can respond to those inappropriate behaviours. It takes a bit of time to develop that. Time is of the essence, we recognize that. We also recognize that this is a concern all across Canada. Many provinces have looked at implementing an eight- to 10-year plan, and we have begun, this year, with that initial investment of $415,000.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, I'll leave that topic. I know that particular teacher asked me to bring that concern forward. The principal of Fairview Junior High was always concerned that there were certain schools in the province that did a very studious, conscientious job in collecting these numbers. We were always asked to move them on to a board level, but they sort of disappeared into this bottomless pit at the Halifax Regional School Board and we never knew where they ended up.

I want to turn to another topic - standardized testing. It is a philosophical question, and it is one, of course, that I think we have differences of opinion on but let's get it on the record right here. There is a need in this province for standardized testing. It is an important component when it comes to having students, as they move on to the next, secondary, post-secondary level of education, there is a role for standardized testing.

I wonder if the new minister could outline for us - and I'm not going to give her a free-wheel here - what she thinks about the current standardized testing process, particularly with Grade 12 math, in our high schools across this province.

MS. CASEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. I did mention in my introduction, but I will elaborate a little bit more, that we are looking at testing math and literacy at the Grades 3, 6 and 9 levels. This will be an assessment that is developed by our Nova Scotia teachers, based on our Nova Scotia curriculum, and we will be collecting that data and using that assessment data to track success and progress. If there are areas that appear not to be showing the progress we want, the assessment is detailed enough that we can bore down into that and determine what particular strand, in either math or language arts, needs further assessment.

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So we are very proud of that assessment tool and the one component we would emphasize is the monitoring and evaluating of that assessment tool, so that we do have it for comparison purposes and we do have it for program building to address the areas that may not be progressing as quickly as we would like it to be.

With respect to the Grade 12 math exam - and I'm sure there has been lots of discussion in the House about that - again, we're looking at that math assessment by a comparison basis, so that every student in Nova Scotia, when they leave Grade 12, will be going into whatever post-secondary training program they can go into, having achieved or been exposed to the same curriculum and been successful with the same curriculum all across the province. So that is, I think, addressing the standardized component of the assessment.

MR. ESTABROOKS: So I can take it from your comments that you are generally satisfied with the process when it comes to standardized testing in this province.

I want to bring a concern forward, and I want to use this math teacher's example - again, it's one of the schools in my constituency. I can say there are many Grade 12 math teachers who are not impressed with the process. They are not impressed with the input they have, they are not impressed with the fact of how they are called upon - as they say so often to me, teaching Grade 12 math is like being on a conveyor belt, you just never stop. Of course when it comes down to if you are in a semestered school and you happen to miss two days of school because of winter weather or for whatever other reason - winter weather is usually the big problem - you are missing a huge amount of time and that conveyor belt, called Grade 12 math, has put these teachers in very stressful situations and it has put the students in very stressful situations.

I want to ask a rather specific question, and I appreciate the fact that you might not have this here with you, but one of the lines in every budget comes down to markers' fees. That is, after all, when it comes to the marking of evaluations for whatever courses or whatever standardized tests. I don't expect you to have this number right at hand but that breakdown of markers' fees was something that I would be interested in. When we look at the Grade 12 evaluation of those standardized tests, I fully question whether we are getting the best bang for our buck when it comes to these exams.

Exactly, can you provide for me at some time - perhaps not today, I understand that - can you provide a breakdown of the markers' fees by standardized tests? How much did it cost to mark the Grade 12 math exams? How much did it cost to mark the Grade 12 math exams? How much did it cost to mark the literacy test for Grade 6? There are many teachers who are questioning the fact - we're talking about limited dollars all the time, but are we really getting a good bang for our buck when it comes to standardized testing and the markers' fees?

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MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, one part of your question, I will suggest to you that we do not have the detail as to the number of markers per standardized test and the cost for that, but we can certainly make that available. However, I would want to suggest to you that not all math assessments, for example, are marked centrally, they are marked by teachers in individual boards. A random selection of those would be submitted to the department for marking here. So the marking budget that you're looking at, I think you need to understand that it's not every math exam being marked by a set of markers at the department. We do have teachers who do mark those exams in their own schools. As far as the detail as to what the costs are per standardized test, we will provide that for you once that's made available, no problem.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I want to go back to the Grade 12 math results, in particular. It seems to me that there's a growing lag of when we get the information. The students write the exams, and the teachers are marking a portion of the exams, they're then moving the results on for analysis at whatever board or at the department level. There's a great, huge amount of pressure on these teachers to have that material submitted and get it in as soon as possible. Then it seems we wait forever to get the results back.

In some situations, particularly in a semestered school, a teacher is teaching a particular subject, and I keep coming to math because it is that lightning rod course, it always seems, when results come out, if we come back to the semestered system and we look at, well, how did they actually do - and I've used this example a number of times with staff at the department - if there's a problem with the quadratic equation question on the standardized Grade 12 math exam, then let's deal with that problem. Let's deal with the teachers, let's deal with the problem, looking at the students - why aren't they getting Question 38 which is on quadratic equations? By the time that next exam comes out, we don't even have the results yet.

[2:30 p.m.]

Now, I could be wrong with this, but the time lag of last January's semestered results, we don't have those yet. We don't have - we, I don't need them, my daughters, thank God they had their mother's brains, endured Grade 12 math and moved on to other things. The teachers, the parents, they're not aware of the semestered results of the January exams. What takes so long? The teachers are under the gun, if I can use that expression, to get the results in, make sure they get into the department, make sure they're the board through the department, make sure that they're there, that we can have these results done as quickly as possible. Then it takes forever for the results to be brought back forward to the eye of the public, when we can look at what are the results.

Now, last January, we had a semestered school system finish. We still don't have the results, and the question is why not? Are they being held back? The obvious question

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is are they so bad that we don't want to admit them; or, on the other hand, heaven forbid we're negative, we are looking at the fact that these exam results are so good that we should make them known to the students, we should be complimenting the students and complimenting the teachers? But now we have nothing. The Grade 12 semestered exam results from January, where are they, and why does it always take so long to get the results?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, I think I mentioned this earlier, but the exams that are prepared by Nova Scotia teachers based on Nova Scotia curriculum for Nova Scotia students are marked by Nova Scotia teachers, and teachers have those results immediately. Those results can and will be shared with parents as the teacher and the school deem fit. What happens with the samples that are pulled in here and which become part of the minister's report, if you're speaking about the delay in getting that information, that's one issue, but if you're speaking about the delay in teachers knowing what areas of the exam provided some difficulty for students, that information is known immediately when the teachers do the marking of the exam. Most teachers, I believe all teachers, would take that as information that they could use to go back and revisit some areas of the curriculum that may need more attention.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, the teachers are always interested in comparing how their students do with other students and other schools. They're intrigued with the fact, if I can use the quadratic equation example again - and heaven forbid I had to teach anybody anything about quadratic equations - but the teacher is saying my students don't do well on quadratic equations, what's it like in the rest of the province? I understand the marks are going back, but at one time, with a previous minister twice removed, if I can put it that way, it sounds like a family relation, I believe it was Miss Purves, was always very accountable when it came to getting the results out. We haven't seen these results, and more and more people are looking at the fact, well, by the time they eventually come out, what is actually going to be the result?

This time I want to bring the concern up of an ex-student of mine who is old enough to admit that he has a daughter that I also taught in school, so I guess if we do the math I'm getting there. I want to talk about a wonderful little girl who graduated from Brookside Junior High School named Laura Boutilier. Laura Boutilier, the daughter of Mike and Julia Boutilier, is attending the University of Maine for a B.Ed. She has to go out of this province and out of this country to get an education degree. There are some students who are saying, you know, there are some extra dollars and it's tucked away in the northern woods of Maine, which makes it an advantage or a disadvantage for a father concerned about his daughter being away from home for the first time. The concern is, they can go to the University of Maine and get a B.Ed. quicker and probably with a lot more efficiency than they can with the current two-year B.Ed. program that I'm talking about within our province.

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Can the minister offer some guidance and leadership on this issue? Why is it necessary for kids who want to be teachers in the Province of Nova Scotia to have to go to the University of Maine to get their degrees when, surely, there are within this province, based on the universities that we have, ample opportunities here? I know we can talk about the numbers, but it seems to me, really a shame that kids, young kids like Laura Boutilier - incidentally, she's going to be a math teacher, probably with French immersion, she can probably pick her spot, she has probably been hired, as I speak, but she could not get accepted here. She has a B.A. from Mount Saint Vincent University, because of numbers, the limited number of people available, she has had to go to the University of Maine. In my

view, that has to stop.

Kids in this province should be educated within our universities. They might go over the Tantramar Marshes to go to a fabulous university there, but I'm looking at the fact that they're going out of our country, going out of our country to get a B.Ed. I'm wondering, does the minister agree with me that, really, B.Ed. students attending the University of Maine should stop? Perhaps our universities here should look at expanding the program; perhaps, further, we should have a one-year B.Ed., 12-month program.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, teacher training, I guess, is something that's kind of near and dear to my heart. I would expect that during the time as minister it will be something that will be under review. I will suggest to you, I've just been advised that discussions did take place between our department and universities, looking at a reduced B.Ed. program so that the situation you're sharing would not or did not have to happen. It's my understanding that the universities did not support that. So I guess my answer to you is, it has been raised before and it will be discussed in the future.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm pleased to see that. I can point to my colleagues from Cape Breton - I know the member for Cape Breton Centre has a son who graduated from Acadia with an education degree, and his daughter graduated last year from Cape Breton University and she is going to the University of Maine. She's enrolled in the University of Maine and I'm sure she will receive some good training there, and she will be a fine teacher when the time comes with the training she's going to receive.

I'm aware of the fact that at Cape Breton University there is this agreement with Memorial University - and I'm aware of some of the complexities of it, but I'd rather not go into that. We're always looking at boosting our universities, we're looking at the fact that we're going to have a teacher shortage for whatever reasons - mainly because we're retiring because of age - something progressive has to take place here.

An obvious place for a teacher training institution would be at Cape Breton University; it would be an ideal location. It would be an institution that would benefit

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from the program and furthermore there would be students from across the Island and the province, probably across the region, who would decide they want a B.Ed. and they're going to go to Cape Breton to get it. I urge the minister to take a leadership role on that particular issue.

Now, I'm going to turn to school librarians. They're like dinosaurs. My old friend and colleague from years ago - who, incidentally, was a teacher during the days when the young member for Queens was a student at this high school - Grace Rogers has retired. Using her words: It's like being put out to pasture. Now we no longer have librarians; in fact, I could get specific and ask how many actual school librarians we have in this province. How many school librarians do we have - teacher librarians, not library techs, not library assistants - how many school librarians do we have in this province?

MS. CASEY: In my introductory remarks, I did mention the support to our school libraries and the positions in the form of library technicians. In answer directly to your question, school boards are putting library technicians and library assistants in their libraries in place of, or in lieu of, librarians. The numbers of librarians who currently are in our schools would be very, very few.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, I'll throw out the number three, and now that Ms. Rogers has retired from Sir John A., I guess we're down to two librarians. Yet, we're going to talk literacy, the focal point of a school, we're going to talk about books and having them available to students, we're going to talk about all those wonderful things, but the person I always relied upon many years ago in the high school that I attended, and as a classroom teacher the person I always sent my students to is the librarian - we're going to the library with a particular topic of the week that is this, that, or whatever, and the school librarian is going to be of huge assistance to us. I think it is a regressive step. Library techs do their job, they do it well, but a school librarian has always been and should always be a vital part of the academic growth of any school.

I want to turn to guidance counsellors because I have a number of friends still in the teaching profession, one in particular, Bonnie Steeves, who is a fabulous guidance counsellor in a junior high, as is Sue Hannem, a guidance counsellor at Tantallon Junior High. They've brought this concern to my attention - and I know you can say the board should be handling that, but I think there should be designated dollars to say there should be guidance counsellors in elementary schools.

I believe that in junior highs, guidance counsellors play a crucial role, and of course in high school, as they prepare students for post-secondary institutions, they also play a very important role. But a guidance counsellor in an elementary school deals with hugely personal issues, and maybe in the days when we went to school there wasn't a need to have a guidance counsellor in an elementary school. I'm sure with the size of some smaller elementary schools, guidance counsellors might be shared between a

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number of schools. I believe, and I'm wondering if the minister would comment on this, that there is a need for designated dollars to make sure that guidance counsellors are not a phenomenon that suddenly starts in Grade 7, or middle schools in Grade 6, but there should also be guidance in elementary schools. I'm wondering, could you share your thoughts with me on that topic?

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, the concern that you've raised about guidance counsellors in our schools was also raised by principals at a most recent conference where the department listened to what principals were saying about the needs and the concerns in their schools. One of those needs and concerns that was raised was directly related to the number of guidance counsellors, and the ratio of guidance counsellors to students. So the department listened to that, and reacted to that. In the budget, you would see, you will check a line, there is a $500,000 commitment, the first time that that commitment has been made directly to support for guidance counsellors. That money will go to the boards to be used for guidance support, and it would be at the discretion of the board where the needs are within their board. It is the first of many instalments to bring that guidance counsellor/student ratio up to an acceptable standard.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I point out to the minister opposite, those are provincial dollars. You should have a direct influence on where those dollars are spent. You should have a direct influence of saying, well, you can use that with guidance. I'm saying that it should be designated to be dealing within elementary schools, because elementary school children, these days, have a whole different set of circumstances, issues that perhaps when we were in school were delayed for various reasons until junior high or even high school.

There are now students at the elementary level who are coming to the classrooms across this province with issues, huge issues, and if you are going to expect a classroom teacher to refer somebody in his or her school to someone with advice when it comes to some personal counselling, opening a door with whatever kind of psychological help for whatever reason, I mean, that's the role of a guidance counsellor. In the school system I worked in, there was always that delay but the matter got addressed, in the meantime, on the ground in your school, you had a guidance counsellor who would deal with the issues.

[2:45 p.m.]

On the topic of personal issues, I know that teen health centres are an important and vital service now provided in our schools. The issue that I point out is, teen health centres shouldn't just be in high schools. In fact, I could be corrected on this matter, I have been corrected in the past, there is a teen health centre in one junior high, Ridgecliff junior high, in the community of Beechville, which services Beechville-Lakeside-Timberlea, one teen health centre in one junior high. Now, it says to me that when it

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comes to many of the issues that people who are dealing with teen health, teen sexuality and many other issues with young people across this province, we should have teen health centres in every junior high. They are important in high school, but in every junior high there should be teen health centres. So I need a guarantee that the funding will be in place in Ridgecliff.

I recently attended a fundraiser for the teen health centre in Ridgecliff. At that time there were four volunteers in our community who were recognized. We had a beautiful meal and an auction, the auctioneer, of course, was a very good auctioneer and actually made some money for the group. Here we are funding a teen health centre in a growing community, in Beechville-Lakeside-Timberlea at Ridgecliff junior high because we're having an auction in the school, we're having a fundraising dinner, and we're recognizing volunteers in the community. So I think it's of real consequence that this government and future governments commit to the fact that dollars should be made available for teen health centres, teen health centres in junior highs, because that's a huge gap.

I know that the previous minister, at times, was taken aback when, on occasion, I would call junior highs a "curriculum wasteland", because it seems to me that there's a lack of leadership, for one reason or another. All the glory goes to the elementary kids, everybody loves elementary teachers. When you're in high school, of course, the lights are at the end of the tunnel, and aren't they great they're going out the door, but you really earn your stripes as a junior high teacher. You really earn your stripes because of the various issues that take place among the young men and women at that age, so I want the minister to comment on the need for teen health centres in junior high schools.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only teen health centre in this province is located at Ridgecliff Middle School in the community of Beechville-Lakeside- Timberlea.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. I couldn't agree with you more that teen health centres are a critical part of all of our high schools and should be a part of all of our junior high schools, and that is certainly a goal that we're working toward. Teen health centres are the result of a partnership with both Health and Health Promotion and Protection, and quite often with the communities. We are quite anxious to work with those partners to make sure that we extend that service, as funds permit, to include all junior/senior high schools. High schools that are combinations of Grades 7 to 12 schools now that have teen health centres would have access to that centre by junior high students.

We recognize the need, we recognize the partnership and the funding that comes with it. When we're building schools the Department of Education provides the spaces and the facilities or the renovations of a space or a facility to accommodate that health

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centre, so it truly is a partnership. Is it enough? Not yet, but we certainly have a goal to reach that.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I thank the minister for that reply - that's encouraging. I encourage other MLAs that when the time arises this Fall and we need a break from the routine of this House, come out to Ridgecliff and see the teen health centre and see how important it is and how vital it is to that school. It's really the area of the school where students feel comfortable dropping in, speaking to the teen health people who are working there, and it's a vital part of that school and it's a success model that hopefully will be followed in others.

Now, the minister and I will be differing on various things - and the previous minister and I, I think, agreed on this topic, but I'm going to throw it out there because nothing absolutely drives me to distraction more than the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies review of high schools across this province. Mr. Cirtwell - you might know of his wife, she was a recent candidate in a local election (Interruption) She didn't do that well unfortunately, I don't know if you followed the results or not, but she ran a good campaign, a lot of money was spent - Mr. Cirtwell is the spokesman for the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies and once a year they receive huge publicity as they rank the high schools across this province.

There is nothing more divisive, there is nothing more negative, in my opinion, when that ranking comes out. It makes no sense; they don't rank the high schools according to enrolment, they don't rank the high schools whether it's a Grades 7 to 12 school or a Primary to 12 school, they rank the school by never going to the school - think about that - you're going to rank schools across this province, yet you never stood a foot in any of the schools, and you receive all this publicity, you've ranked them for this reason and that reason and, incidentally, in the last report he wasn't too pleased with some of the responses that he received from the Department of Education, particularly when it came to discipline statistics because they weren't available.

I want to know what the minister thinks of the yearly AIMS report, because basically I'm just sick of their free publicity. I think it's a really negative, divisive tool pitting one community against another community, pitting one school against another school - but I'm waiting to see what the minister thinks of the yearly AIMS publicity stunt.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. The report from the AIMS group certainly raises a lot of controversy every time it's published, and probably some of the most anxiety is amongst the teachers and the schools that are in that ranking list. Because of that negativity to ranking, you'll not find that our department does that and we do not support the AIMS approach to ranking schools, so I think we agree on something else.

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MR. ESTABROOKS: You know, I will share with the members present who I think, and what schools I think, high schools, schools I've been in, and I want to share with members opposite - I know that one member in particular is always intrigued when he stands in his place and starts to talk about the Cobequid Cougars, but let me tell you, you go into CEC, you go into Parkview, you go into those schools and you see the traditions and the banners and the musicals and the community influence, those aren't things you can measure. Those are things you have to feel. Those are athletic accomplishments, they are academic accomplishments, they are musical and drama accomplishments. That's how you rank schools.

If it's necessary to rank them, you look at the schools and how well they've done, or perhaps how, in some cases, they haven't done so well, but I think it's really a divisive report. It's not something you know - I know that members opposite at times think there's not a microphone or a TV camera that I don't like, but when the AIMS report comes out, I'm not interested in talking about it. It's a waste of time.

I see the previous minister with a smirk on his face. Take me up on that, I guarantee you won't see me commenting on the AIMS report. Not because of Mr. Cirtwell's involvement. I've given him advice, a number of years, to at least go out and see the schools, to at least walk into that gymnasium at CEC and realize, how can you not rank that school in the top five in this province? How can you not rank it there? If you look at the number of university students, or at the number of people who move on to whatever institution, and that's the mark of success of a school, that's not true. One of the categories is how many of them move on to post-secondary institutions, and how well they do as they move through their school career. That's just not the way you rank schools.

Schools are many other things, they serve an important role in our communities, teachers take it personally, and they're just downright unfair. Anyway, enough of that rant. It has been said, again, good luck, Mr. Cirtwell, and not necessarily in the next election.

I want to turn my attention, if I can, to an alarming trend in this province called the growing number of private schools. I think it's alarming, to be quite truthful with the minister. It's alarming because it's a growth industry which, for some reason, is a reflection on the fact that the public school system is unable to deliver - particularly when it comes to high-needs students - the service that parents want for these children. I'm very pleased to hear, and I've supported it before when the tuition support system went from two to three years. I know that I've had a number of friends who have set up private schools for various reasons, and their enrolment, they just keep turning people away.

In September, when enrolments come in for private schools, particularly at the elementary-age level, Primary to Grade 5, Primary to Grade 6, you will see that it is a

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growth industry that is, unfortunately, not a real great endorsement of the public school system in this province. I can use the example of a fellow Mount Allisonian who was concerned when his little girl headed off to the school, who believed that probably the best place for her to attend would be the Crossroads Academy in Tantallon. Private school, very well run by those teachers because the enrolments are low; in most classes, they are 12 or under. A huge advantage, if you can afford it, when it comes to private schools, particularly at the elementary level.

So I'm interested in the minister's view on my comments as to whether she is alarmed with the growing number of private schools. Maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know, across the province, the number of private schools. I do know in the community I represent, there are more and more students who are attending private schools. They're attending private schools for the reason of enrolment, but they're also attending private schools because perhaps this young man or young woman is a high-needs student who needs more attention than the regular classroom and the regular classroom teacher - through no fault of his or her own - can offer, but that these young men and young women attend private schools.

I can mention the Halifax Christian Academy in Timberlea, the Crossroads Academy in Tantallon. There is a private school on the Hammonds Plains Road, its name escapes me. There are, of course, the various institutions within the HRM. The Churchill Academy, in particular. They are turning students away. It's a trend that's an unfortunate one and it's really a comment on the fact that across this province, or at least across this region, we are unable to deliver the service that parents expect and therefore they're opting to send their sons and daughters to private schools.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite. People use a variety of reasons for why they might choose a private school and that choice is theirs, those decisions are theirs; however, as Minister of Education, as a teacher in the public school system for a lot of years, I continue to be very proud of . . .

AN HON. MEMBER: We don't know how many years.

MS. CASEY: That's right, I didn't tell you that, did I? I started when I was 10, okay?

To get back to the question - a lot of parents make decisions to send their students to private schools for a variety of reasons, those are their personal reasons, but my experience in public education as a teacher, as a supervisor, and as a parent, is that we do have a good quality program, our teachers are second to none, and we will continue to put money into our public schools to make sure that quality of education continues to be delivered.

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You spoke about class sizes, and that's one of the areas that we've addressed, and one of the commitments in the election platform is to look at capping class sizes so that we do have reasonable numbers in those elementary grades, for pupil/teacher ratio there to be something that is workable. If people want to make those choices, that is their choice, but I'm not convinced it's because the quality of education in public schools is not good.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Well, that's a topic we can have at another time - not just our respective ages, but I started teaching school when I was 14, incidentally.

There's another school in this province that has been suddenly put under the microscope, and it has been working for a long time in a great way. Classroom teachers are always saying about the Memorial example in North Sydney, what a wonderful school that is and the programs that they're offering, particularly when it comes to the flexibility in programming, but why was it only at Memorial? How come it was only allowed to continue to survive there? When we look across this province, and under a previous government of a different stripe - I remember some of those days, although I won't go back into Mr. Harrison's days in particular - but let me tell you, the Memorial example in North Sydney is a wonderful one. It's one that we have to continue; it's one that we have to spread across this province.

[3:00 p.m.]

When I attended the Truro conference at CEC, I know I could sense when I attended that O2 part of the conference - and if there are people present who aren't aware of the O2, they're breathing new life into the school system, I'll put it that way - that O2 program is a great direction, it's one that I fully support, but it's like reinventing the wheel, every once in a while in the school system they seem to say that's not working, we have to change all of that.

I want to point out for an example some of the most prominent graduates of the communities that I represent. Coastal Restoration. Coastal Restoration operates out of beautiful downtown West Dover, and the two young men who run Coastal Restoration, Bryce and Blaine Morash, graduated from the Grade 9 program at Sir John A. Macdonald and they went on from there to vocational school and they came out with a trade - a bricklaying trade - and now when you see Coastal Restoration and how they are repairing these historic buildings around this province, two very successful men who have worked hard their whole lives, employed many people in the communities that I represent, and they are particular graduates of a program that has worked so well.

My issue, of course, comes down to the fact that Memorial is a good place to have it, but we should have it in Isle Madame, because there are examples in Isle Madame where the fishing industry could be benefiting from examples such as there are

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in that community in Richmond, and we should be doing it in other parts of our province. We should be having the O2 program breathing life into schools around this province. So my compliments to the previous minister and to the department, but let's not wait too long - let's make it work. We know it works, teachers know it works, let's make it happen.

That's a success story, and now I've got a negative one - it must be my nature as an Opposition member. Ridgecliff Middle School is one very difficult school to get into for community use. Ridgecliff school, the school I mentioned earlier in the community of Beechville, is a P3 school under a previous government. Wasn't that an experiment we all want to forget? Well, each year the Beechville community hosts an annual basketball tournament. In the second week of August, they wanted the opportunity to be able to get into Ridgecliff school to use the facility. The answer, no, not available this summer because of the cleaning schedule at this P3 school.

I've heard the minister talk about this and I know my time is quickly going by, because I can go on about this forever. P3 schools, public schools, the private partnership, access to the schools - there are other examples around the province that I hear aren't working too well, but when we deal with the P3 group that runs schools in the HRM, it is very difficult to get into their schools. If they do let you in, they charge you an arm and a leg.

So here's a community, an historic community of Beechville, that wants to have an event scheduled in this school, their school, up on the hill in Beechville Estates just above the historic community of Beechville. The kids from Lakeside and Timberlea also go there. The answer is, no, you can't get in. What do you mean, no, you can't get in? It's a school in our system. We should be allowed to get into these schools, they should be allowed to be in there for free. It's a non-profit organization. It is a community group that has deep, deep roots in the community of Beechville. But they not only can't get in with a cost, they've just been told to go away.

Now, I've put up with this for a number of years, minister. I have heard that we're going to allow non-profit groups, seniors, young people and soccer groups to get access to schools across this province. This summer it's not happening in my community again. It's not happening again. Basically, the communities that are served by P3 schools in particular are sick and tired of it.

I'm wondering if you could be of some assistance to the community of Beechville, Lakeside and Timberlea on this important issue.

MS. CASEY: P3 schools have provided our communities with beautiful facilities. They have, however, taken away some of the responsibility and direction from the department because they are private developers. What I would encourage communities

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to do through their principal to the private developer is to look at more workable schedules for cleaning so that community concerns and community events and community activities can be accommodated in those schools.

There are certainly agreements with the developer that have to be acknowledged and we would encourage people to look at ways to open those schools at more convenient times for some of those summer activities that do involve community and are important to community.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I appreciate the fact that this is that steep learning curve we're talking about. I know we can talk further to the minister on this topic and I know staff is involved in these negotiations. That's a disappointing answer. I understand - I hope you don't take this personally - there are a lot of complexities there and these developers have to be put in their place. They have to be put in their place. We're running the school system in this province, not a developer. I don't want to pursue it because it just drives me crazy with the fact that these are beautiful schools and we can't get in them.

Let's move on. Let's go to something else here. September will soon be here, of course, quicker than we've ever seen as provincial legislators. You'll see the headlines, school fees, away we go on school fees. They will do this potpourri as we go from school to school, what is involved in this school, yearbooks cost so much in this school, lockers cost so much in this school. We'll all look at it and say, that shouldn't be the way we charge kids to go to school. They'll have to buy school agendas in some schools. It's like a smorgasbord. You send the information home to the parents and in some situations - I want you to know that we talked about it at our caucus meeting recently - we want to be able to help students in our schools, or parents of students in our schools, who cannot afford these school fees.

Now we've heard it before, we have heard the concerns before. This September, is it going to be any more consistent across this province than it has been in the past? We are charging some kids in some situations for necessities. A yearbook is not a necessity. Maybe if you're graduating from Grade 12, yes, they want a yearbook. A yearbook is not a necessity. A locker is a necessity. A locker to get a kid organized, to know where they're going, to have them ready for the day is a necessity. Is it still necessary to charge kids for lockers? Is it still necessary to charge kids for lab fees? When my daughter was an arts student, the lab fees she faced over the years - she would come home and say to her mother, Mom, I need this amount of money for this particular trip we are going on, or I need this because I need new material in art, or I need new material in chemistry even though my lab fee for the second semester is so much.

We aren't talking about yearbooks here, we're talking about charging fees for necessities in the school system. Predictably, in September, staff will be preparing and

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I know you will be prepared to comment on this topic. It is a yearly, annual pain in the butt - if I can say that, excuse me, Mr. Chairman, usually you're listening - it's an annual pain in the rear end but let me tell you, sir, it's an issue that's not going to go away. I wonder if you are ready for September when you are asked to comment on school fees and the lack of consistency from one end of this province to the other.

MS. CASEY: Mr. Chairman, to the member opposite, school fees fall into two categories, but we do have a policy and we will make sure that policy is enforced. That policy says that it will ensure that students are not charged for core curriculum activities. That would be your lab fees. What I would ask the minister opposite, if you find in September that a school is charging a lab fee, I would like you to let me know because lab fees are not to be charged, they are considered to be core curriculum activities.

A yearbook and athletic kinds of endeavours are school-related and school advisory councils are in place at every school. As part of their advisory capacity, they work with the administration at the school and have a lot of input, or should have a lot of input, into such things as yearbook and school trip fees and so on. There should not be and there will not be fees charged to students for curriculum-related activities.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired.

The honourable member for Kings West.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly welcome the minister for her first go-around on the estimates and I also welcome members from the Department of Education, and in particular, the deputy minister who I had a number of dealings with in my earlier critic role. I'm now back as the Liberal Critic for Education and am pleased to be there. However, I'm just getting up to speed on some of the more recent topics and concerns there.

I did pen a few notes to start off today. I'm certainly pleased to speak on the estimates on education. As a former educator for 30 years and vice-principal at West Kings High School in the Annapolis Valley, certainly the education system in a general fashion, and in particular in relation to that school, very much have a good feel for.

The education system in Nova Scotia employees thousands of people dedicated to the teaching of our students to provide a better future. This not only involves teachers but administrative assistants and staff members with various jobs. Our education system has the potential to be the best in Canada, but we must begin now to ensure that this is possible. Certainly when it comes to the national stage, it would be nice if I could stand here in my place today and say that on all of the national testing parameters we do have, Nova Scotia was back at least to a place somewhere in the middle when it came to standards measured across Canada. For a number of years now we have been at the

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bottom. We've been nine or 10 out of 10 provinces on much of the national testing programs that we are part of. So it would begin to see us start to climb again and reach our potential.

Our children deserve the best in education and we must provide this service to them and the only way to do this is to make certain the Department of Education is working correctly and funding is distributed to the appropriate places. That's why we're here today, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to see that the Public School Program will be receiving more money according to these estimates. This shows support for our teachers and staff. More money for our public schools means more educational services to our children, which we'll all benefit from.

Certainly as I've looked at the estimates over the last three years since I became a member, I would have to say that a lot of the increase, a high percentage of the increase, has actually gone to support the staffing in our schools. Much of that actual increase in the Education budget would reflect, in fact, the contractual agreements between the Nova Scotia Teachers Union and the province. I think the time has come to show that here is the exact dollar that's going towards and working to improve our classrooms.

The fact is, Mr. Chairman, now is a critical time in our education system and we must meet the challenges that we face head-on. One of my concerns is funding for children with special needs. Some children require more attention than others and it's up to government to make sure our schools are equipped with the right professionals for the job. I remember speaking with a school board member from the Strait Regional School Board earlier in the year and they were frantically trying to fill a position at a school for a language pathologist to aid children with specific speaking disorders. This particular school had the funding available but could not find someone to work there.

[3:15 p.m.]

Mr. Chairman, this is indeed a serious problem and we must address it and find a resolution to situations like these before they arise. We must ensure that more funding is provided to our post-secondary institutes and dedicated professionals in fields to help children in special education find employment. I believe we must fund programs for children with special needs and I strongly recommend the government review its policies regarding this matter and direct more money to this area. I would stop there for a moment, and once again relating a little bit to the member opposite, to talk about special needs, for a whole number of reasons we certainly now identify more students of special needs in our schools. Also the pre-Primary program will be another area in which we will be able to identify children who have special needs or high needs and again, hopefully, they will be addressed, and I'll have some specific questions to that as I go along.

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Another important topic that must be discussed, Mr. Chairman, is that of school closures. It's a shame when a school in a rural community must close its doors, leaving a town or village with no educational institute. I might add that this is not only happening in rural communities, but in large areas like the Halifax Regional Municipality.

Recently a member of this Legislature put forward a resolution regarding the closure of schools under the Halifax Regional School Board. So, as you can plainly see, this is not just a rural issue. Having said that, it seems that more often than not it is the rural communities suffering because of the closure of a school. This is causing distress in a number of areas, Mr. Chairman; for one, the children are denied the right to education at a school close to them. When a school closes, they must travel long distances by school bus to attend another school, a larger school. This also causes distress to many parents. Many parents will tell you that they do not want their children taking an hour or more bus trip to school. Often they must drive their children, causing them to spend even more money on their children's education.

The fact is that we must find a more viable solution to this problem. The government must invest in providing children with a suitable learning centre within reasonable distance of their homes. Closing the school is a difficult decision and I do not envy those who have to make that decision. Schools are not only educational institutes for our children but many times are, in fact, the community centre, the heart of the community. Activities and public events regularly take place at schools due to their size, very often location and historical use of the schools. The information highway is upon us more than ever; the Internet has replaced the telephone and it is rapidly becoming the most important and swift way to communicate and research. Many schools use their computer areas as public access domains for those who do not have computers at home. People pay a fee at the school and use their facilities, just as they would at an Internet Café in a more urban area.

Closure of a school can be necessary at times, but I believe we must look harder and find a resolution to this problem. On many occasions this could have been avoided and government has to work harder with school boards and their members to see that the closure of a school is the last possible resort to a situation.

This brings me to another point, Mr. Chairman. Almost two years ago we had completion of a government-funded report, the Hogg report as it is generally referred to, funding formula for the students and the school system in Nova Scotia. The Hogg report has been repeatedly supported by the Halifax Regional School Board. It can be a model for other school boards across the province. It certainly shows how to resolve some of the problems our schools face today, such as school closures. The Liberal caucus is also in full support of the implementations based on the Hogg report. I'm delighted to see that finally the government will be investing $5 million to implement the recommendations of the Hogg report.

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I wonder why, however, it has taken so long to implement these recommendations. This was completed almost two years ago. It shows a lack of action by the government and how little they believe in the future of our children. However, let me stress that with these recommendations our children will now have a better chance to receive the full benefits our education system has to offer.

Mr. Chairman, I would be failing to act as the Education Critic for the Liberal caucus if I did not bring up the next issue. The Pre-Primary Pilot Program is an excellent initiative that can help num