MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call the committee to order.
The honourable member for Dartmouth North.
MR. JERRY PYE: Mr. Chairman, it's early and I'm just getting my books and everything organized here. The Legislature moves fast sometimes, even when we don't want it to, and it moves slow when we think it should move fast.
Mr. Chairman, you will be aware that when I left off from the Community Services estimates yesterday, we were talking about client service delivery initiatives. I posed a question to the minister before the time had elapsed and the minister didn't get a chance to respond to the question that I put forward to him. We do know that the Department of Community Services has an RFP for the delivery of information technology within the department. We also know that that client service delivery initiative is out there and it will soon be coming forward because the minister has indicated that it will be coming forward, providing there are requests for proposals and once those requests have been reviewed, the successful consulting firm selected.
We talked about the kind of structure that this is going to put in place, but my question to the minister yesterday was, you know, how will accessing confidentiality for the clients be improved if a private sector partner is involved in one or more of the call centres that may have to be established with respect to this information technology that the minister is bringing forward? I can only visualize what it might be like and so I'm wondering if, in fact, the safeguards are built in there and if the Minister of Community Services can tell us, how are those safeguards going to be protected so confidential information regarding client services will not leak out through some method?
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MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Community Services.
HON. PETER CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to have an opportunity to carry on the discussion with the honourable member about the client service delivery initiative. As we finished yesterday we were talking about how the RFP was going to go forward, how people were going to be selected, but the question that we're dealing with now is the security and information confidentiality and that, of course, is a major part of the department's mandate and operations. Whether there is a new system or an old system, it is a very important part and the honourable member knows that and he's very aware of the extent that we have to go to maintain that confidentiality.
What I can say to the honourable member is that we have known for a period of time that there were a couple of issues: first the issues around how we were going to control information as it flows right now and the second part, how we were going to deal with information as we move into a new policy initiative. Over the last six months we have been working on an information management policy to deal with that particular area, to deal with how you ensure the security, how you ensure that that information is retained only within the people who are authorized to have it; that information, if it's going to be put on databases and so on, how that is controlled.
[9:15 a.m.]
So that has been a major initiative that we've been working on and that's all being contained in the policy development, the information development policy that we have been working on. That policy, when it's completed, prior to any time when any changes will be made, will be made available to all the department. It will become department policy and people will have to be aware on how they do that.
We've researched this across Canada, and other jurisdictions are obviously looking at the same situation. They have the same need for security and confidentiality and so they're looking at it, too. Yes, we are perhaps one of the few provinces, one of the leading provinces on this, but other provinces are looking at it, but I guess the short answer to the question for the honourable member is that our information policy research management is looking at that. That will be in place, the standards and the policy will be in place. Everybody will know it. Anybody who is working with consultants will know it. All of our department will know it before we go forward so that we can be assured that we do have that security and our clients can be assured that we have that security also.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, the minister has assured me that his information security policy committee will be looking at this with respect to security. He also gave me the impression that this is somewhat of a new venture because it is not consistent across the country and across Canada because he did indicate that other jurisdictions are looking at Nova Scotia and how Nova Scotia might implement such a client service delivery initiative.
If that is the case, can the minister tell me if, in fact, there have been some models - mind you, I know what the minister has said - but are there some models out there that the minister has taken some direction from with respect to setting up this model within the Department of Community Services of Nova Scotia?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, we have looked at other models. We have looked at others but, of course, as you look at different jurisdictions, other areas, some are called Family and Children's Services, some are called Municipal Affairs and Community Services, some are Community Services and Health. The models across the country in different jurisdictions are different than what we have. We have housing here. So you look at some of those models and when we meet at our national conventions, you have an opportunity to talk with people and see what models they are using, but I guess from our perspective, we are looking at developing something that is available to our needs. Some of the models that are closest to what our needs are happen to be ones in Australia or England and some of the western provinces.
So we have looked at those, but ultimately when we have that RFP that we have out and if we are successful in finding somebody who wants to proceed on with that, we will be saying to them, look at some of those things, but we want to develop our own home model. We know that because we have housing included, because we have a different structure for Children's Aid Societies, because we have a different structure for other partners that we have, we have to have information available for those. So we have to develop our own model and we have to ensure that the information is secure and confidential. The phrase that the honourable member was seeking that I did say to him was an information management policy, that's the phrase that I used and, just for clarification, I know that's what you meant, but just so we're talking about the same thing, that's the phrase that I did use.
Our real issue here has been whether we put in a new system or not. Our issue was still to balance the public's right to know and our ability to respond in terms of FOIPOP information if it comes along, but we still have to ensure that we can provide that information, but our main mandate and as it is mandated to us in legislation, we have to provide confidentiality and that security. That has to be our main goal. So while we look at other jurisdictions, we know it has to be a homegrown design at the end of the day.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, I believe last fall the minister was talking about this being a reasonable expenditure and that there appeared to be a reasonable profit to the consulting firm who would be the successful applicant for the proposal that his department is requesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you said that it would be somewhere around $20 million a year for four to six years. Now, $20 million a year out of the Department of Community Services for four to six years is a tremendous amount of money and, obviously, if the government is anticipating saving those kinds of dollars annually, what kind of an effect is that going to have and where are those dollars coming from? Not just simply for the minister to get up and say that's a result of savings, but are people,
caseworkers or counsellors, or whatever the case may be, are they going to be losing their employment as a result of this initiative?
Somewhere that $20 million has to flow, and that's a tremendous number of dollars, Mr. Chairman, I would say to you and this Legislature, that could very well be spun around into the Department of Community Services. So I'm wondering, just exactly how does he envisage these kinds of savings over four to six years? If we take the $20 million over four years, that's $80 million; if we take it over six years, that's about $120 million. There's no magic to those numbers.
MR. CHRISTIE: The honourable member is quite correct. We had talked, and I guess in terms of the initiative, the initiative looks at finding somebody who can develop systems for us. For those people as they look at developing, they obviously aren't going to do it unless there's the possibility of getting some money. I think as we look at the overall department, our department of course, this year our estimates are $646 million. As the honourable member knows, a large portion of that is staff, and we've talked about staff increases, the increases in salaries. What we've also indicated is there are a lot of components here in terms of space requirements, in terms of data management requirements, in terms of initiatives to provide information and to provide resources to people who need it. We look at the information of balancing caseloads and we talked yesterday about the need to look at case load balance so that Children's Aid Societies in this province maintained a caseload level which was deemed to be reasonable.
So in all of that, as people are starting to look at that and we're starting to look and if we are successful in finding somebody, we are looking at the fact that we see the range of $20 million a year for the next four or five years. I think one of the things that we have to keep in mind, as I indicated yesterday, one of the challenges and one of the responses that we've had from our caseworkers and people in the department is that they spend a lot of time in data management and the management of getting the files up or updating the files and doing these other things.
I say to the honourable member, he mentioned about a 1-800 number and one of the objects of this exercise is so that people, for example, looking at housing and what programs are available from housing, can go on the Web site, can call into a 1-800 number and get that information and be able to come on and see if they qualify for certain areas and if they are able to do it at that front end, then they have a lot of their questions answered. They've had a lot of the information dealt with prior to the time when they come to the caseworkers. There will never be a time in this business of Community Services that you do not need caseworkers. Caseworkers have to interrelate with the people. We feel that is a challenge and we feel it's our responsibility to ensure that caseworkers are having as much time as they can to spend with the clients.
For example, we now do all the intake on separate programs; some are done on this program and some are done on that program. I'm sure the honourable member has had people who have experienced the frustration of having to fill in extra forms, getting extra data, providing extra information. That's clearly one of the things that we see this initiative doing. Those all amount to savings, as you're looking at saving time and people not having to fill in extra forms, to correlate forms and put these together.
So, with clients wanting access to all of our services, whether it happens to be income assistance, housing, child care, licensing for child care, all of those things, either you have somebody that's on the phone or sitting there to deal with them. You also have the option where people can do it and look at the services on the Internet or on the telephone and do a lot of those services. As we think of this, I view it as similar to the ability to register through Access Nova Scotia now. You can go get the information, you can register and that means that you're able to provide that information through a variety of ways.
One of the goals and objectives is, we want to concentrate staff on the resources to helping people and not being data managers. That's one of the clear objectives of this and in doing that, there are obviously savings. When we talk about $20 million per year of a $646 million budget, I think what we're saying is that we want to be efficient and use the dollars as wisely as possible.
MR. PYE: I guess in a roundabout way the Minister of Community Services has told me yes, despite what we were led to believe that, in fact, this initiative will be the replacement of people, particularly intake workers. If you know the number of intake workers that are in the Department of Community Services and you can centralize all this operation, what's going to happen is that there is one source in which you enter; that source in which you will get the information that you want on children's services, what you want on housing, what you want on income assistance and so on. All that will come from a central source and you will be able to tap into this one number; therefore you may not get an individual intake worker and there may be three or four intake workers, there may be five or six - I'm not sure of the number of intake workers within the Department of Community Services - but I can assure you that there are probably at least four intake workers for sure that are within that department.
I would say to you that this might be another avenue and I would want the minister to give me some assurances that there will be no employment losses as a result of this client service delivery initiative and there will be no way in which individuals who make application for income assistance will be denied because of the rigid application forms and someone at the other end who doesn't fully understand some of the things that may be needed by the personal touch and extraction of the personal information. If you're going to fine-tune it to the level in which I envisage it to be, there will just simply be a standard form with questions that will process an applicant seeking income assistance. So I'm wondering if the minister can clear my foggy mind of just exactly how this thing is going to function.
MR. CHRISTIE: I think there were two or three questions that the member had there. He was talking about intake workers and the functions they fill, whether they be in housing or in children's aid areas or in the area of income assistance. As we look forward on this project, as we look at what we were going to do or we look as part of our business plan we look for this year and we look out on the future, to me the question isn't whether people are going to be displaced this year, the question is what will people be doing in the future. We can look and say, are we going to need more people in the future to do those services because the demand for services is growing. We talked about that yesterday, the number of children that are increasing, we've talked about the daycare expansion, we've talked about the early childhood development initiatives and we've talked about a number of those initiatives. So as we look and we say are we going to have to keep expanding our data management services, well, it would appear the answer is yes, unless we attempt to do something.
[9:30 a.m.]
So I think your question was, are people going to be replaced and will there be less people? What we're talking about is how people are going to be better utilized. I hope I'm making the point to the honourable member that what we envisage in the department is that caseworkers and intake workers and all of those types of people who are working now to maintain the present system, that there's certainly going to have to be people there but their functions could change. As opposed to being zeroed in and spending all their time or a lot of their time entering data on data management, we would envisage that those people will be able to become more oriented towards the clients and would be working with clients to provide those services and better services that we want.
I guess at the end of the time, through the design, the question will be, is less staff going to be needed? Well, probably as we start through the design, as we look at the period of over four years, the demand for what this department is going to do is changing each year. I don't need to tell the honourable member that because he's very aware that the demands for income assistance go up and down. The demand for children's services go up and down and we have to balance those resources to meet those needs.
So if the question is will people be doing something different, there is probably a good chance they will be as we balance the design, as we have data management there so people aren't spending all their time on that, they're able to be in the field more, so chances are people will be doing different things. But over the period of four years if the question is will the total complement of the department go down, chances are no, the complement won't go down. Will the complement need to increase by 200 or 300 to input data? That's what we're tying to manage now so we are not just people having to file papers and do data management. We are able to provide those services and we are streamlining the data management side of things.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, I did pose a couple of questions there, actually three questions to the minister, and the minister did not respond to the last question. I can understand because I should be fine-tuning those questions a bit more so that there is an opportunity for him to catch on to all the questions. The question that I did ask was around clients seeking income assistance. I did ask the minister if in fact this method or this new initiative, does the minister see this as a deterrent from individuals being able to tap into income assistance, particularly when they need it because of probably the kind of programming that will be set forward? I can only envisage that if in fact the department is going to be streamlined that there will be a standard application form that the client might have to complete before the client is then assessed for income assistance. I'm wondering, can the minister go through that part of it for me, please?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I will come back to the honourable member's last question, I think the question is do we see any deterioration of people's access or people's ability to interlock with the department for assistance. I hope what we're saying is this is part of what we envisage will improve that, and as we work our way through, one of the obvious goals is to be able to provide better service in that area. Not only better service, but we have to be able to ensure that in two or three years, as our caseloads might grow in one area, that we are able to provide that service, and that's the fundamental tenet of this initiative, that we are able to provide that information.
Now we are always going to be in a situation where people have to provide information. Those are part of our regulations, as people come to us for services, we have to gather their information because as we all know there is certain criteria in a lot of our programs that you have to meet or be available to do. But we view this as seeing staff working more meaningfully; we view it as staff working more meaningfully and that means they are able to spend more time with the clients in whatever area and we view that as being an improvement in the service to clients, an improvement in access, an improvement in information and, indeed, an improvement in time turnarounds. That's the objective of this whole exercise.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, I've covered that area of client service initiative reasonably well. I want to move on now and I know that other members have already asked some questions around child care with respect to child care services, early childhood development and daycare spaces and so on. Last year when I spoke to the Minister of Community Services during estimates, the Minister of Community Services said we now have over 2,500 spaces across the province, including 95 subsidized spaces that are attached to children, not the centre. Those are the portable spaces. I do know there was some question around how many daycare spaces are going to be available this year. I do believe that the minister had indicated that there would be 50 additional daycare spaces this year. He did not indicate that there were going to be additional portable spaces or if in fact that was a combination of daycare spaces as well as the portable spaces.
This is consistent each and every year, Mr. Minister. In fact what happens is that these 50 daycare spaces had been allocated, I believe, under the Liberal Minister of Community Services, Francene Cosman, as well as yourself, when you came on, yet there is a significant need in parts of this province for daycare spaces. So you're actually not meeting the demand. I believe back in 1993, and your department would know the report better than I, but there was an indication that there was a real need for some 5,000 daycare spaces in the Province of Nova Scotia and that they were going to address that over a period of time. I believe that they had set a goal of 10 years to reach that. I guess my question to the Minister of Community Services is, what child care spaces are now available? Is the government meeting the demands of the child care spaces that are required out there? If the government isn't meeting the demand of the required daycare spaces, why are we just simply allocating 50 daycare spaces? As well, can you tell me if they're an accumulation of portable plus daycare spaces?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is correct. I did indicate that we would be adding 50 new spaces this year. In discussions with the honourable member for Halifax Needham, we were speaking of this yesterday and I indicated there would be 50 new spaces. Your other question was where are they going to be allocated and are they going to be portable. As I indicated yesterday, essentially since I have been involved in Community Services, we asked the Nova Scotia Round Table on Child Care to assist us on that and get the report as to where spaces are, as the honourable member knows, and to look at the need for portable spaces. Presently, there certainly is a lot of demand for spaces and now there are, in the province, about 8,000 full-time daycare spaces and about 3,500 part-time spaces.
The honourable member is quite correct. There is a demand for more subsidized spaces and more spaces. As we looked at the initiatives this year and as we looked at the opportunities through Early Childhood Development Services - and the honourable member will know that he has had an opportunity to look at the Beech report and some of the reports that were attached around that - the direction that we took was to work on early childhood development in terms of stabilizing salaries, in terms of looking at grants for newer locations because we had to ensure, as part of our mandate, that there were spaces available in all parts of the province.
The other part of your question is, is there a demand for more subsidized spaces? The answer is yes, there is a demand for more spaces as there is a demand for more housing areas. So we're balancing that in trying to ensure there are spaces in the area, trying to stabilize the daycare salary issue. We're trying to make sure there are grants for non-profit and, as the member knows, our grants toward development are for non-profit daycare centres so we have those spaces so that in future, as we get into more subsidized spaces, the spaces are available and in the areas that they're needed.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, the minister didn't tell me if in fact - I guess he did tell me, that the spaces that would be allocated this year are 50 spaces. He didn't tell me if in fact some of those spaces would be spaces that were portable. I would assume that some of those are going to be portable spaces out of the 50 daycare spaces that are available. I just want to say that this is important because the minister has an initiative within the Department of Community Services from welfare-to-work initiative. There are a number of single parents, namely single women, who require child care services.
I'm pleased to hear the minister say that there is a larger need than the 50 spaces that the minister is allocating, but I'm not pleased that we're not keeping pace with the demands out there in order to make things move much quicker and to give individuals the opportunity for child care spaces, particularly in the constituency I represent. I know there are other constituencies whose demands are much greater than mine. I know there is a tremendous waiting list for subsidized daycare spaces in communities particularly around the metropolitan area. The minister is going to have to address that and address it rather quickly.
The other issue is with respect to the enhancement of benefits for those people who are employed within the child care industry. I shouldn't say industry, but employed within the child care services is a more appropriate term. I know the minister had worked very hard last Fall. He has given assurances that there would be salary enhancements both in the private sector and the not-for-profit sector; he would bring up that salary standard and it would gradually be phased in. I know the minister has indicated that there would be money set aside for benefits, as well as to those individuals employed within the child care services. So I guess the minister also is aware that any new child care spaces that become available will become available in not-for-profit agencies, I do believe.
I do believe that he may have had some correspondence with those in the private sector with respect to this very issue, how that initiative is going to unfold, how it is going to take place and if they're going to get sufficient warning on this particular model that the government, I think, has somewhat set in stone. So I guess, Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, can the minister enlighten me as to how that process is progressing now and if money has been allocated for salary enhancements this year, as well as benefits for those people employed in child care services, that's early childhood intervention, development, you know, the whole picture of child care services?
[9:45 a.m.]
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, as we look at two or three of those points, and the honourable member indicated that a number of people going back to work needed to find daycare spaces. I think that is clearly the reason, as part of our back-to-work initiative, we indicated we were going to provide more money for daycare and we did. As we brought the Income Assistance Act forward last year, we provided up to $400 for daycare. That is exactly
the point that I was making earlier: if you're going to have that, you have to have the spaces for people to go.
Now the other part of your question was, as we look through the early childhood development programs and we look at the development of those programs, what's happened up to this point in time? Well, as we did indicate last year, we were going to do grants to daycare operators - that was full-time daycare operations, both private sector and non-profit sector. The purpose of that was to enable them to give salary enhancements; they had to do that, to provide salary enhancements. So what we did last year, once that was approved, those monies went out to the daycare centres and we got money out. They're in the process now of sending us back their plans for this year; as part of the process they have to show us how that money is going to be used in terms of salaries and benefits and they have to be able to meet our test. They're in the process now of coming back to us and providing us the information for the grants and so on for this fiscal year.
As I said, we did send the money out to them last November, so they have that money and now they're in the process of going through the grants to get for year two of the early childhood development plan and they're sending us information now.
The other part of your question was, are we still committed to grants only for non-profit, and the answer is yes. That is the standard that we set as part of our program to the ECD. I know the honourable member is very clear and understands this well that as part of our undertaking with the federal government and the other provinces, not only do we have to be able to report to the public of Nova Scotia what we're doing in that program, but we have to report nationally, we have to report to the federal government. So as we make this ECD a multi-year program, through the next four years we will be working on all those areas with the federal government to meet those federal-provincial requirements.
Your question was, have I had discussions with the profit sector of child care, yes I have; I meet with them twice a year. I meet with the non-profit child care sector twice a year and we talk about the initiatives. We talk about where we're going and they tell us how the current status of the business is. They tell us their goals, objectives and their problems and we tell them where we're going. So I do have an opportunity to meet with them. At the present time what we've indicated to them is for our grant program to go forward to develop non-profit sectors in the areas, where there isn't sufficient daycare now to provide the needs. We all know the needs because we can look at it.
The other thing I just want to say to the honourable member is, part of this initiative is an information initiative. This year, we will be undertaking to provide information for across all the province so people can contact us to see what daycares are in the region. If somebody happens to move to a new region, if somebody has to be coming in from out across the provinces, they can contact us and ask what daycares are there, what daycares are licensed, what are the opportunities here, what areas are under development, and talk about
portable spaces and subsidized spaces. So we view this as part of the information to help the daycares so people can get the information and that information is exchanged and people have access to the information all across the province as to where daycares are and where they can go.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Dartmouth North's time has expired. There was 36 minutes allocated to the NDP caucus this morning. The time actually was over at 9:47 a.m., but we let the minister respond. I will now go to the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Glace Bay.
MR. DAVID WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I am not certain at this time exactly with who, but I will be sharing some of my time with some of my fellow colleagues later on.
Mr. Minister, good morning. I would like to start on the subject of Masonview Homes, if we could. Mr. Minister, as you're probably well aware right now, it was about a day after you gave somewhat of a reprieve to women's shelters and transition shelters across this province that you also gave a reprieve to Masonview Homes, which I'm sure, as you know and everyone will know, that's a group home for deaf and mentally ill adults.
At one point, Masonview Homes said that they would be closing their five facilities, which would force 15 residents out, because they could not longer get funding and the support required for 24-hour supervision. But now the discharge notices have been rescinded. Mr. Minister, first of all, I commend you for reversing that decision and, indeed, rescinding those notices and giving them the funding necessary to carry on. As a matter of fact, as I understand it, you have given them more funding than what they requested. So if I may ask you if you could give us an overview as to how that situation came about. How did we get to the point where residents of Masonview Homes were about to be forced out of their facilities and all of a sudden there was a turnaround where you found more funding than actually was requested and it leaves us at the stage today where these residents are going to stay there? Could you explain to us, please, exactly the series of events that led up to that?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member knows, we have this small options home, we have a variety of those throughout the province, and people deliver services. This situation, in terms of having discussions as to what services we want and what rates are available is not uncommon. I don't mean to imply, and I don't think the honourable member is suggesting, that this is unique and that this particular facility is different than any others providing services to people across the country. The question was what was the process that led up to this. Well, we reassess all of the individuals and that is constantly on the go, and individual needs change and we have to recognize that those needs change.
We also have to recognize that we are in the process of taking larger facilities, such as the Halifax County Rehab Centre, the Scotia ARC, and those facilities, and we are moving people back into the community. For example, over the last period of time Bayside, down in Shelburne, has been developed and those things, but in the process over the last number of months, specifically to Meadowview, those discussions have been going on. We met last November. Staff has met with them; they met in February; and they met in March. The discussions were proceeding as to what the department needed, what the department saw as the reassessment of people and how that was going to proceed.
We provide funding support for the clients based on the needs assessment and the specialized staff that they would need, and that level of care and funding perhaps doesn't always match the operator's view and, as I indicated, it's not unique across this province in terms of Meadowview. If the operators choose to stay in business or choose not to stay in business, that is their decision, not our decision. They provide the service for us, they're partners with us, but in terms of whether they are going to stay in business, that is entirely up to them. From our perspective we look to see what their needs are, what we see as specialized staff that is needed, and provide per diems based on those. A lot of these, of course, have come back from the municipal days when the municipalities looked after them and moved through so the province is funding these, and there have been a number of discussions at various levels of government. Now that we're responsible for them, as we have the discussions with them, we talk about, as I say, the specialized need and the staff who's there and we arrive at conclusions.
With this one we arrived at a conclusion, as we do with all of the units across the province. So I do want to suggest to the honourable member this one is not unique, that we have discussions with all of the people providing these services, but at the end of the day it's the operator's choice as to what they want to do, and this operator is certainly eligible and able to make business decisions. If they choose to close it down, that is entirely within their purview. If that happens, then we have to find other service providers to provide service for that. In this case it was our intention, we wanted to continue on with this operator, we were having discussions and we wanted to ensure, and indeed our mandate is to ensure that the safety and the care of the residents is the primary concern. That's what was happening through the discussions and, as we've had before and as we will again, we arrived at a successful conclusion with the operator.
MR. WILSON: Mr. Minister, I think we will disagree on a few points here. One, unfortunately you put those residents through a very horrible situation to begin with. You were the one who was willing to kick them out on the street. You were the one who was willing to take residents who were living in that particular situation - and very happy to be there - you were the one who was willing to take very vulnerable people and tell them that they would have to move to another part of this province, or force them to move to another part of this province. So one would be very easily led to the conclusion that although you may have corrected the situation, you created the situation yourself.
I would suggest, Mr. Minister, that you, as the Minister of Community Services, more so than a lot of your Cabinet colleagues, have a responsibility - and a major responsibility - to take care of the people who are the most vulnerable people in our society because they come under your direction. They come under your hand in a lot of cases - and I'm talking about people who are disabled mentally or physically; I'm talking about the poor, the people who live in poverty; I'm talking about women; and I'm talking about children. Those are the people you deal with, Mr. Minister, those are the people you have to have compassion for in this province. This is a perfect example of the lack of compassion that you had in that case. I'm glad you finally found it, but at first blush you will see that you did not have it.
It took an emergency meeting that was held in Dartmouth and my colleague, the member for Dartmouth East, and I attended that meeting, but it took that meeting of residents and clients to finally bring this to a head and then, all of a sudden, the discharge notices were rescinded. I'm wondering, Mr. Minister, you know, although they were relieved, it was a difficult process for the residents at Masonview and their staff, and especially for their families, and we know that it may not be the last struggle that they will have. I'm wondering if one of the things that may have avoided this - and that a lot of local agencies have been pushing for - is the recommendations of the Kendrick report.
Now, as we all know, Dr. Kendrick was a consultant specializing in mental health and disability and he filed a 195-page report on group and small options homes last year. He made seven recommendations, as I'm sure you're aware, Mr. Minister, so I would like to know how many times - I have a few questions with regard to the Kendrick report - you have met with the Community Action Coalition to implement the Kendrick report, let's say in the last four months?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I'm just trying to think, in the last four months I don't think I met with the action committee. I know that we had met with that committee, I believe it was last summer, with the Department of Health and Community Services, that we met with them. I know we had a meeting at Community Services and my guess would be it was probably last October, but in the last four months I have not met with them.
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MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I will ask the minister then if he has any plans in the immediate future to meet with the Community Action Coalition?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I think in the last discussions we had with them, the question was that we had discussed and not only with them but the question with other people who are involved in the small options homes, people who are involved in ARCs, the question was where is the Kendrick report and what are some of those implementations that are going to be moved on and started with. What we've indicated to them is that we have
several issues that we are looking at. I mentioned earlier about the closure of some of the larger facilities and people getting housed in that.
I mentioned also about looking at some of the options and the standards with some of the other facilities, but I guess the basic question that we have been discussing with them is when are the Kendrick report initiatives and recommendations going to be implemented and what we've said to that group and what we have said to other interested groups is that the Kendrick report first and foremost was a report the department authorized. We wanted to do two things. We were asking the question, are we moving in the right direction? Back several years ago Nova Scotia, the same as across North America, started to bring people back to the community from large facilities. So the question that we posed to Dr. Kendrick and what the report was speaking to was, are we going in the right direction? The answer was yes we are, we're moving in that right direction.
His other recommendation was there had to be a range of services and options for people, and one of his major recommendations was that it was going to take a prolonged period of time - and he used the phrase "over 10 years" - to be able to ensure that the services you are bringing to this sector, that they're stabilized so you're not moving from one option today to another option the next day.
I do just want to go back to the honourable member's discussion on Meadowview. The honourable member suggested that we had issued the orders to close the place down and that we withdrew them. I do want the honourable member to be clear that we did not send out those notices to leave. The problem of that is with the operator and only the operator can do that. From our perspective our job is to provide services for people and not to put residents in situations that cause them upset, and that's what we attempt to do. That's why we show increases in our community options this year, because we know there will be newer people who need to come into those services.
So I think I just wanted to go back on that point, but in terms of the Kendrick report, the Kendrick report is a valuable tool to us. The other reports that Health has on mental services are valuable tools to us, and with these recommendations we are starting to put into progress, we are reducing larger facilities as the report indicates. We are supporting people in smaller settings and we are working on support services for individuals to live in the communities, and those are all part of the Kendrick report and parts that we've started. So yes, we're moving forward; no, it's not going as quickly as the coalition would like to see; and yes, we will be having more meetings with the coalition as we develop our future plans.
MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, let me clarify and clear up the Masonview dispute here first of all. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Minister, your department is responsible for the assessment of those individuals. So if that assessment is dragged out or if that assessment has to be done again - which it was in this case - then your department is ultimately responsible and we will leave that subject there.
Now let me get back to the Kendrick report. I'm sure that Dr. Kendrick didn't ask you to take the Kendrick report and leave it on a shelf for 10 years until you implement any of the recommendations; I don't think that's what he meant by a 10-year time frame. So let me ask you what your plans are over the next year with regard to recommendations and, if I may, could you give us some specific targets perhaps on a number of recommendations you would like to implement, let's say this year? You know, would you like to implement one or two or 10 - or none - of the recommendations of the Kendrick report this year, Mr. Minister?
MR. CHRISTIE: In terms of the Kendrick report, in this year it's our hope that we will achieve several of those recommendations. One of the recommendations that was made, and as I indicated earlier, was removing people from larger facilities, and in discussion with the honourable member for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour yesterday we indicated that it is our intention this year to finalize the phase-out of the Halifax County Rehab Centre. That's clearly one of the objectives Dr. Kendrick suggested, that you move from larger facilities into smaller facilities.
We have developed over the last year different options for youth and children in terms of the Shelburne area. We've indicated that we are converting the Dayspring centre into a day program for youth. That is part of the option menu that Dr. Kendrick mentioned, that there should be a range of services. So those two we are working on and we will work on completing those this year.
With Health this year we will be looking at the long-term care side of things. We hope to complete that this year. We hope to complete the other recommendation of being able to provide and redefine the in-home supports for people in Community Services and in the Department of Health. So those are four or five major initiatives that we hope to achieve this year.
MR. WILSON: One of the recommendations of the Kendrick report that indeed would have cost very little in terms of resources was to develop specific regulations and policy to ensure strong service user and family participation rights. I would like to ask the minister, has he started to do that?
MR. CHRISTIE: His question is the recommendation around the blue ribbon panel and bringing people in to look at where the programs are going, to look at the long range and to develop community-based input. I take it that is his question. We have indicated to the various groups that have talked to us, we see that as a viable option, but what we've also indicated to them is before a group can start looking at how things are going to develop, how things are going to go, that there have to be the resources in place, there have to be some fundamental decisions of where we move with long-term care and there has to be the availability to say that the funds are there to move in that direction.
We have continued to develop the community-based system of services and over this next year we will be closing those facilities, as I mentioned. We will be opening small options homes in Queens, Shelburne, Barrington and Westville, and more small options homes in the metro area. As we continue to do that and as the sector gets larger in terms of people who want to be involved, we are going to look at how we are going to develop these areas. Indeed, that's one of the things that I anticipate in the near future, as we meet with Health we will be looking at how we will bring that structure in place. It's not simply just a community service issue, it's a broader government issue. We have to be able to provide the resources and provide some sense of direction to give to those people as they set out to meet the challenges.
MR. WILSON: Let me ask the minister then, in his own words, how would he grade exactly where you are right now with the Kendrick report? Would you give yourself a glowing review in terms of implementing the recommendations of the Kendrick report? Are you happy with where things are now, or do you think perhaps that they could be moving just a little quicker in terms of actually implementing the recommendations of that report?
MR. CHRISTIE: I guess in terms of where we are with the Kendrick report - would we give it a glowing report? I think at the end of the day I will leave that to you and the public to make that decision. How are we moving along, are we moving along with things? Well, I guess, as I indicated, we are moving along with a number of initiatives and I don't say I'm surprised that it's going to take a while to implement some of those things, because there are a lot of social impacts and a lot of situations involved here. From my perspective I think we are dealing with a number of those things. We are dealing with some of the basic infrastructure items that have to be dealt with first and we're starting to deal with those as we move along. I guess I would say, from my perspective, I'm pleased with the way things are moving. I know that we have to find more options for people who need those services, but I think as we continue to do that, I'm fairly pleased with the way things are moving in terms of the Kendrick report.
MR. WILSON: The minister already made reference to one of the other recommendations of the Kendrick report - to reconsider and review a decision to move home care for disabled people to the Department of Health. I think you made a little reference to that anyway. I want to know, has there been any consideration to actually implementing that recommendation? How much consideration has been given in talks and how much consultation or talks have been held with the Department of Health regarding that recommendation?
MR. CHRISTIE: Referring to the discussion we had with the honourable member in terms of the health care and services that we need to provide, as the honourable member knows, health care is certainly with the Department of Health, the recommendation of the Kendrick report spoke to that, plus a number of areas where Health and Community Services had to resolve a number of issues. Where is it now? We're still in the process of working
with Health to get that resolved. That was one of the issues I referred to as one of the areas where the coalition said they wanted to have further discussions with us. But the history of that process is that in-home support was moved from the municipalities to Health in 1995. Dr. Kendrick looked at it and said that should be revisited, where that's located and how it's delivered, along with a variety of other services that were raised in his report. The status of that now is that we are still working with Health and still determining how that's going to move forward.
MR. WILSON: The minister has indicated - and I want to go back just a little bit there - that he would certainly be meeting with, he has future plans to meet with the Community Action Coalition. Perhaps you could just give us, in detail, what role do you see the Community Action Coalition playing, when are you planning to meet with them again, and what part will they play in the whole process here?
MR. CHRISTIE: The specific answer to your question is yes, we will be meeting with the coalition. There is, as the honourable member knows, a large group of community-based people who are interested in this topic. There are operators, there are people who are involved in small options homes, there are groups who provide these services across the province. Back some months ago, down in the New Glasgow area, we had a chance to meet with some of the providers and they wanted to become part of the discussion as to where the Kendrick report was going, the implementations. We undertook to meet with some of those groups, so the answer to your question is yes, we will be meeting with the coalition. We view them as people who have grassroots information and knowledge on the topic, but we will be meeting with a variety of others - community-based people too, service providers, the people who provide the training in our community colleges - to provide people for this. We will be meeting with a broad range of people as we move forward on this.
MR. WILSON: I will change topics now I think, although they are directly related. The rate of poverty has increased significantly throughout this province over the last five years. I would like to know, Mr. Minister, what is your department doing to address the issue of poverty in Nova Scotia?
MR. CHRISTIE: Your question is the rate of poverty and how poverty has been a national agenda item for the last number of years. As I had the opportunity to discuss with the honourable member for Dartmouth North yesterday, we were talking about the National Child Benefit and the Nova Scotia Child Benefit. I think one of the major things that we looked at and one of the major things, incentives and initiatives, that we have moved to do is several things. First, when we announced last year the platform levelling of the National Child Benefit and the Nova Scotia Child Benefit, when we mentioned the fact that we were going to pass on all of the increases in that back to the people who are with children under a certain income band, the objective and goal of that was to ensure that all people who were under low income were receiving the child benefit.
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Prior to that time there had been the issue of whether people on assistance were getting as much money, whether people on low-income bands were getting enough money - our objective was to do a balancing of that so that all that money was going back to those
families on low income. When we look at the incentives of going back to work, we indicated yesterday that we are helping people by keeping them on Pharmacare for one year. As they go back to work we are providing back-to-work initiatives, and we are providing additional daycare. All of those items are speaking to the fact that families need to have resources to help them over short periods of time or longer periods of time, and those are some of the initiatives that we've been taking.
If your question is, is there more to be done, there certainly is. That's a national issue that we all understand and that's the issue that we will be bringing to the Social Services Ministers' meeting when we meet again, how can we continue to meet those demands. I think, as the honourable member knows, one of the things that this province has - and we discussed this earlier - is the challenge of having the highest disability rate in the country. We have to bring that to the national scene. We have to be able to speak to the needs of people with disabilities, because a lot of the people with disabilities fall under that low income also. We have to be able to provide more services to them.
We have moved in the area of stabilizing the child benefit and the Nova Scotia Child Benefit to all income families, we have moved on the initiatives of providing incentives and providing assistance for people to go back to work, and we do recognize that all communities and all governments have a role to play in helping to reduce poverty. We have made some initiatives, we have more to make, and we will continue to work with our federal and provincial counterparts to continue to make progress in that area.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we move on to the member for Glace Bay, I would just like to remind the members that they should recognize that there is a need for decorum. If they have conversations that are of interest to themselves, take it outside the Chamber, because budget estimates are significantly important and it's important to not only have the questions put forward, but also to hear the responses to those questions.
MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure the minister will agree that one of the areas that family poverty would have an impact on is the youth of our communities. Unfortunately, many children in this province are forced to go to school hungry, so I'm sure you agree that we have to ensure that programs go beyond the classroom. We know that students, for instance, will be more productive when they've eaten and are healthy individuals. So if I could, I ask the minister what specific measures is your government taking to eliminate child poverty throughout Nova Scotia?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is certainly quite correct. When you look at child poverty, not just child poverty, you look at the whole question of poverty, you are looking at issues surrounding education, housing, food, shelter, all of those issues. Those all become important issues, and people need to have all of those before they can help their families in any way possible.
What I was indicating earlier is some of the initiatives that we have taken on a national basis, and provincially, in terms of providing families with low income the ability to meet the challenges that they have. Part of the question the honourable member raised was if you have people going to learn, then they have to have safe and affordable housing, they have to have the income. As we were discussing yesterday, the affordable housing program is targeted to address and to try to meet just those goals. Specifically, as we look at people on assistance and we provide monies for them to help them go back to school, as we look at the benefits for people under the child benefit, as we look at the ability for them to carry Pharmacare to help them so that if children need medications or drugs, that those are there for people to help them get back to work.
As I did indicate yesterday to one of the honourable members, one of the areas that we look at is for people who perhaps have challenges with medications and those medications, when you build it into their budget, exceed their income level, that's when the department comes along and says we will provide support in the Pharmacare area. Indeed, as I indicated yesterday, that's an area that is growing quite rapidly, because a lot of times people will find that they have money to provide a lot of things, but all of a sudden they're hit by medical needs for their children or themselves, so the department is providing that supplement between their income requirements and their budget.
Those are a few of the areas that we are working on in child poverty. I do not dispute the fact that it's a national issue; I do not dispute the fact that there has to be more done. It's something that not just governments need to do, it's a community thing, it's a government thing, and it's a national thing that we have to keep working on to help alleviate the problem.
MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, just before I turn the remainder of the time over to my colleague, the member for Cape Breton The Lakes, I have just one last question. Does your government, Mr. Minister, provide funding for breakfast and lunch programs at any schools throughout this province and, if so, what schools?
MR. CHRISTIE: No, we provide a variety of grants to organizations; we provide grants to the Boys & Girls Clubs; and we provide grants to other areas, but we do not specifically provide grants for breakfast programs. Some of the people we provide grants for will provide those, but we provide grants for a variety of services they provide, but breakfast programs are not specifically designated as one.
MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, how much time is remaining?
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is approximately 31 minutes left.
MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, for the remainder I would like to turn the rest of the time over to my colleague, the member for Cape Breton The Lakes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Cape Breton The Lakes.
MR. BRIAN BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, yesterday at the beginning of my questioning as housing critic, and today most of my questions will be in regard to housing. I asked yesterday if you, in fact, requested more money for maintenance programs for your department, from the Finance Minister, and you weren't really clear. You indicated that you went to the minister for more money and, later on when I questioned you, you indicated it was for the federal homeless programs. I would like to ask you, very directly, today, sir, if I may, did you, in fact, request more money for maintenance programs for your department?
MR. CHRISTIE: The question is did we ask for more money from the Minister of Finance for housing or did we ask for more money specifically for maintenance. We asked for maintenance, the same figure as last year. Last year we had $12.462 million and that's the figure for this year. The additional monies we asked for, I referred to yesterday, was for the Affordable Housing Program, so that we could become partners in that program.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Minister, I would have to ask you why you didn't ask for more maintenance money. You said yesterday you were aware of the numerous units you had throughout the province, and you indicated that you were aware of many of the units that were in dire need of repair. I would like to ask you very clearly, yes or no, why didn't you? A very short answer, if I may, why did you not request - being aware of the maintenance difficulties in your department - more maintenance money from this minister?
MR. CHRISTIE: We provided the same amount of maintenance; we provided the same amount as last year. We don't know what emergencies will arise; there were emergencies last year. If those emergencies don't appear, we will have more money this year for maintenance of our standard program. We provided for the amount of money that we felt we could absorb and handle this year to provide for those emergencies, provide for those facilities that we have that require attention, and that we undertake to do this year.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Minister, that's a clear indication that you are out of touch with Nova Scotians. Really, yesterday in reply to my questions you indicated very clearly that you were aware that many of these units were in dire need of repair. I brought to your attention the fact that several seniors' housing units on the Northside in particular, in CBRM - and they are both located in Cape Breton North - seniors waited over a year, sir, for you and your department to repair loose roofs, in particular. Only one of those units is repaired today. The other unit continues to have a leaky roof, and there is mould growing everywhere in this unit. Of course, we all know how health-knowledgeable your minister is over there,
promoting better health habits. How do you propose our seniors can remain healthy living in units that are full of mould?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, the question from the honourable member is, how do we expect people to live in our facilities if the facilities need additional work. The question also is, a lot of areas will be requesting elevators and as the honourable member knows there are a lot of areas around that have requested elevators.
As I indicated, we look at those areas of emergency, we have to do those emergencies. We do look towards the Affordable Housing Program. If the honourable member says, well, why don't you put money into developing the houses that you have, or why don't you make decisions to put less or more money into the programs, programs for people to stay in their homes, that's the balancing act that we have to come up with. People want to stay in their homes and, as we know, 70 per cent of Nova Scotians own their own home. Those people need assistance, those people need to be able to stay in their own home longer. That's where they are healthier.
We have indications from the Senior Citizens' Secretariat that people staying in their own homes are healthier, so we have to put additional money into RRAP programs so they can stay in their home and be healthy and stay in their community. At the same time, we have 12,000 units across the province, 6,000 of those are seniors' housing units that we have keep repaired. We have water issues. You will recall last year that a number of those had issues surrounding water. We have to provide water for those.
Those are some of the emergencies that come up, those are the things that we meet, and in terms of leaky roofs, in terms of other issues, we meet those as best we can and we meet those challenges because the member is right, people need to have healthy facilities. We meet those as we can, while we're meeting the emergencies in other areas too.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Minister, that's a lot of babble. I think most Nova Scotians recognize that you're doing nothing to repair the units that you're responsible to maintain in this province. I would remind you that you're speaking about federal programs that are cost-shared. You're using federal funding, sir, to do the maintenance of seniors' homes, individual homes. I would like to ask you, since it's very clear that you and your government don't intend to do any repairs to these units, will you provide the buckets for the seniors so they can collect the drips when it rains?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to presume the honourable member is trying to be facetious. I don't think he thinks that repairing seniors' facilities is a joke and something we need to take lightly. The answer to his question is, yes, there is some federal money in here; yes, the federal government transferred the responsibility for these programs to the provinces five years ago. That is very clear. They did that all across the country; they transferred these federal programs to the provinces and they said to the provinces, we want
you people to be involved. Yes, we agreed to do that; we agreed that we would become involved in these issues; and yes, there's a variety of issues surrounding that whether it's rural and Native housing, whether it's seniors' housing, whether it's others.
I will remind the honourable member that's the federal program that we were talking about that wanted to start and get more money into affordable housing. They were the government that said they wanted to have more units built up. We were debating with them the fact that we needed to have more money for existing housing, that we wanted the program to be more than 25 per cent for existing housing and go on. That is part of the government initiative and we're happy to work with them on it.
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Yes, we meet those challenges, we meet the challenges on a variety of issues and that's what we will continue to do as we work our way through the program of repairing the houses that have the greatest need, the ones that are on our critical list, and the lists that are developed by our regions.
MR. BOUDREAU: I'm not making a joke, Mr. Minister. I represent an area in Cape Breton, and in industrial Cape Breton right now seniors are having a very difficult time buying buckets, sir. I don't know if you've bought buckets before, but they're $3 or $4 each, and the last call I had from a senior on King Street - and that is a unit that you repaired, I will give you credit for that, after approximately 14 months waiting for you to repair it, you finally did get around to repairing it last year - but that one senior had four buckets. I don't know if you bought any buckets lately, Mr. Minister, but anybody on a fixed income simply cannot afford it.
They can't afford this. They can't afford the extra health care costs. You're the government that is promoting health awareness yet you allow mould to grow in public housing units in this province. It's unacceptable to the people in Nova Scotia, sir. Sooner or later you will get that message somehow. Perhaps you will get it from Nova Scotians. If you don't want to hear the Opposition members, that's fine, but Nova Scotians will deliver the message sooner or later.
I would like to ask you, sir, how many people on staff in your department do you have in the maintenance department to do the maintenance on these units?
MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I would draw to the Chair's attention the fact that the House has lost quorum.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That has been agreed upon by all Party members that the quorum today would be relaxed in honour of the awards taking place recognizing the service of Nova Scotians. There has been an agreement by all Party House Leaders, not calling quorum.
MR. STEELE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In that case I withdraw that point of order.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, member.
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, the question I recall was how many people do we have in maintenance. As the honourable member knows, Housing Services works with the housing authorities across the region to provide a lot of the housing services. A lot of the departments of the housing authorities do a lot of contracting out of those services. The number of people within the department the housing authorities have for maintenance, I don't have that here. I will table that for the member. A lot of those initiatives are done through contracting out services as they are deemed required so that they can get specialists for the kind of work that they need.
MR. BOUDREAU: Has Housing Services undergone any kind of staff reduction?
MR. CHRISTIE: No.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, last year, I know in Cape Breton, the maintenance individuals didn't even have paint, they had no windows, they had nothing, no materials to carry out their duties. Will you ensure Nova Scotians that the materials that are required to carry out this maintenance will be provided to your maintenance personnel?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated before, we have repair lists that are developed by the housing authorities, those are developed with the department to develop the areas that need things the most. We will be providing materials for those areas, we will be providing the repairs, and we will be moving on those. Whether we achieve all of them that the honourable member is talking about this year, I don't know. That will remain on how many challenges come up. It will depend on how many emergency situations arise. We will be providing the materials and the labour to start down our list to get those fixed all across the province with all of the housing authorities. As I indicated before, we have to deal with emergencies. If roofs blow off, if water problems occur, if windows break out or whatever the situation is, we have to deal with those and we will continue to deal with it. So, yes, we are providing the materials for those areas that are on our maintenance list and we will continue to do so.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, I think it's pretty obvious that the minister certainly has a lot of federal money there that he's handing out. I would like to ask the minister, has the business plan for the homelessness program that the federal government just announced been completed?
MR. CHRISTIE: I think your question is about our business plan for homelessness. I think the honourable member knows that the federal government, when they came and announced the homelessness project, they announced people in the province - not the
provincial government - to help with that project. The initiative they had was for that group to find partners in the community to start to work on that program. They also indicated that that program was going to be targeted at the larger cities and they designated Halifax as being one of the targets. The honourable member remembers that the group they appointed had discussions around whether it should be Halifax, or if Sydney should be included. The honourable member knows that we made undertakings with the minister, Claudette Bradshaw, to indicate that Sydney should be included on the homelessness list.
We never asked, honourable member, for the province to develop a business plan. The federal government announced the plan to work along with people and develop with partners, private partnerships. We were never asked to develop a business plan. The other side of the question, on the Affordable Housing Program that they announced, is one that we've been asked to be a signatory on. We were asked to be a signatory on the Affordable Housing Program along with all of the other provinces. We have people in town from CMHC next week to try to complete that. The issues that we have in terms of that program, when the federal government announced it, they indicated across the country they wanted only 25 per cent to go into existing stock and the remainder into new units.
From an Atlantic Provinces perspective, we've been saying to them, no, we want to have more content in the existing housing stock because we have a large group of people staying in their homes that need repairs. So we want to be able to put those in repairs. Once we have the signatory with the CMHC sign-off, then we will know what business plan to develop; whether they've agreed to their 25 per cent content or they've agreed to our content. Once we have finished that - hopefully next week - then we will be developing our business plan.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, again, the reply from the minister is kind of confusing. At first he said he wasn't required to create a business plan, but at the end when he sat down he said, after all this babble he went through - anyway, Mr. Minister, every time you stand up you say the federal government this, the federal government that. When are you, sir, going to show any leadership for the people in Nova Scotia in your own department? When are you going to provide the leadership that's necessary to create your own programs, instead of following on the shirt-tails of the federal government?
MR. CHRISTIE: Let's clear up one thing. That honourable member said that I said we had one program and then I said we didn't. What I said is that we didn't have a business program for the homelessness initiative. Then I said we are going to develop a business plan for the affordable housing initiative. There are two clear different initiatives that I was talking about. When are we going to show some leadership and put it back in here? That's what we're doing now. If you look at our income support, we're showing initiatives to go back to work when we show initiatives to go back for daycares, when we show initiatives for people for subsidization because of employment support; those are initiatives that we're showing, that we continue to show.
Yes, we work with the federal government, along with every province in here, and why wouldn't we. Why wouldn't we get involved in national programs so that we can provide standards across the country. As the federal government has indicated, that is an initiative that they wanted to undertake in terms of housing and we're happy to join with them. So when you say why don't we come to the table with money, I told you the other day that we put $4.7 million up for the Affordable Housing Program; that's coming to the table with programs and those are the things that we're doing.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, it is kind of shocking for me as a newer member of the House - two years ago, these guys had all the answers. They were going to lead Nova Scotia to prosperity. All we hear from this minister is he's riding the shirt-tails of the federal government, spending their money on programs. Mr. Minister, is your department ever going to create your own program?
MR. CHRISTIE: I am going to presume the question is are we creating our own program in housing. Let's presume that's the question. I indicated to you, in terms of our department, we have a number of new programs that we're creating. Are we going to create a new program in housing, in terms of housing initiatives? We have a variety of programs that we support. We don't see the need, if we look at people and the demands for the RRAP program and the other program. When we're asked to come to the table to put more money into rural and Native housing programs, those are programs that we are going to initiate. Those programs are partly initiated by the federal government and partially initiated by the province. We have a number of initiatives that we are looking at.
I will say to you again, I don't argue the fact that in terms of the national agenda that the federal government's programs are programs that we want to bring in here and we want to implement. Yes, we have to put more money in those. Yes, we have to show initiatives in terms of those. Why would we say let's exclude ourselves and cut ourselves out from the national programs. Why would we do that when the federal government and the other provinces are leading and showing that they want those programs. So we want to continue to bring those in and we will continue to support those programs. If those programs don't come along, those programs aren't there, then we as a government are going to have to continue to support them.
You indicated that the federal government is involved in everything. Well I will continue to remind you that the federal government said a few years ago, we want the housing units to come to the province. Now we as a province could have said no, we're not going to take them over. We could have said that. We could have said, no, we're not going to take over these programs and just dropped them all and said if the federal government isn't going to be in them, we're going to get out of them. They came and said we want you to run them. The consequence of that is we have to put more money in them, but we viewed those as good programs. The community saw those as good programs, so we as a government said fine, we will come into those programs and we will continue to do them. We are still in those
programs and people are saying that those programs are worthwhile because they keep applying for them in great numbers.
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, the minister forgot to say that he also gets the money from the federal government. Anyway, I would like to ask you, Mr. Minister, how many public housing units you visited last year as the minister of your department; how many public units did you visit?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I'm just trying to think of the number. My guess would be about 12 different facilities. I know I was down to two or three on the Eastern Shore. I was down to a number in the Bridgewater area. I was in Yarmouth at some of the areas. I was in Amherst in some of the areas, and I was in some of the areas through Inverness when I was visiting with the minister up there. My guess would be it's 15, maybe 20, of the different housing units.
MR. BOUDREAU: Strange, but it sounds like you visited Tory areas, Mr. Minister. I don't recall you being in any units in the Sydney area, really. In any event, the vast majority of the units obviously were in Tory-held ridings. So, again, and I questioned the minister yesterday, I asked the minister yesterday to confirm to this House to make an undertaking to the members of this House, all members, that you will look right across the board fairly, on units throughout Nova Scotia regardless of who represents them. Will you do that, Mr. Minister?
MR. CHRISTIE: I will remind the honourable member that Lunenburg West, as I indicated, is not a Tory riding. I did indicate to the honourable member the reason I haven't visited your area is you haven't invited me down to visit those units and I'm happy to do that. The honourable member for Lunenburg West invited me to come down and I did. I indicated to you yesterday that as we look at the list of items, as we look at the items where the priorities are set, those are set by the housing authority. You can go and check with the housing authority in your area to determine the items that they have on your list. Those are the lists we follow. If you're suggesting that the housing authority's development is based on the political colour of the riding, I would have to argue with you on that one because they develop the list based on their needs assessment and the repairs and that's the way we will proceed. I said to you yesterday that's the way we will go and I repeat that again to you today.
[10:45 a.m.]
MR. BOUDREAU: Mr. Chairman, I can assure the honourable minister he will be receiving a written invitation from me personally before the day's end. I thought for sure that my good colleague, the member for Cape Breton North, over there would have asked him prior to this, but apparently he indicated he hasn't been invited to Sydney. I didn't know you had to invite ministers to go visit public housing because I have several, Mr. Minister, you will be interested in seeing, believe me. I can assure you that the seniors living in those units
are going to want to speak to you, sir, especially the units where I'm going to take you because there are many units down there that are in dire need of repair, and your government, your department and you, sir, fail to recognize the real need Nova Scotians require when it comes to maintenance and construction of public housing in this province. Your government and your department under your leadership has no plans . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The time has elapsed for the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Dartmouth North.
MR. JERRY PYE: Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I listened intently to some comments from the Minister of Community Services around the issue of the Michael Kendrick report and the Community Action Coalition to implement those reports and some questions that, in fact, the minister had been asked by the member for Glace Bay. I don't want to dwell on this issue for a long period of time simply because there may be some duplication, and that's not the intent. The intent is to get to the crux of the real issue.
We recognize that in fact there was a whole serious need to address the issues of individuals with respect to community supports, those individuals with intellectual disabilities, those individuals with mental disabilities, those individuals with physical disabilities, et cetera. The minister was very much aware that as a result of a murder some years ago with respect to the Sheppard murder, there was a report on community-based options. The minister recognizes that that report was also reviewed by the Kendrick report and that Dr. Kendrick's report that brought recommendations back to the Minister of Community Services cost some $51,000.
There were a number of major recommendations, but I want to dwell on the most important recommendation and that was a recommendation that will get this off the ground in my opinion. I do know that the minister has said that he wants everyone involved: he wants the service providers, he has been talking to the service providers; he has been talking to advocacy agencies; and he has been across the province talking to those who also administer programs that are complementary too. The minister has talked all around that issue, but my concern is when will the minister recognize that the single most important function of this report is to establish what was considered a blue ribbon committee made up of stakeholders which, in fact, could give direction to the Department of Community Services on how best to proceed with Kendrick's report?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I think, as I indicated to the honourable member for Glace Bay, we certainly recognize that as one of the lead components of Dr. Kendrick's report. What I also indicated to him, and I say to you again, is that as that committee comes in place and that group becomes available as to the makeup of that group, we have to be able to indicate to that group that there are resources available. We have to be able to indicate the areas that the government is able to support and the directions that the government is looking
at going in long-term care in the terms of the small options homes. That group indeed will play a large part in terms of the menus and the honourable member is certainly aware of Dr. Kendrick's discussion about the need to provide a range of menu items for people needing those services and they will play a large role in that.
I take the point in terms of the coalition, as the honourable member mentioned, a lot of the service providers and the Coalition for Community Living, a lot of the people in long-term care have a lot of vision of where they want to go. They have a lot of vision of what range of services we need to provide, but we believe that before that committee gets up and set, we have to be able to provide the resources so that they know that we have the resources to be able to implement some of the things that they're going for. That's where we are. As we move forward on that, when will that committee be in place, we will be working with the Department of Health as best we can, with the other departments involved and particularly with the Department of Health to be able to start to look at the long-term care structure, to be able to look at how that can develop, and then we will bring in that committee.
Indeed, I have had a number of people write to me and indicate they would like to serve on that committee. My guess is that we probably have some 10 or 15 people who have indicated that they would like to be involved in that committee and, once again, we've indicated to them that we will advise them as soon as we're looking at bringing that committee on, what the committee's mandate will be and when they will be starting to function. So, yes, that's a major important part of it. Yes, we need to get on with that, but we need to do some work in terms of providing resources and structural direction from the government.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, the minister did meet with the coalition, I believe it was back in June, and he did make a commitment I believe to meet with them in the Fall of that year as well, and that was 2001. I don't know if he kept that commitment or not. It's my understanding that that commitment may not have been kept and I'm not sure, the minister will let us know.
There are a number of concerns in the communities and I think that Dr. Kendrick indicated that the department was in disarray when it came to - and he never used this word but I will use this word, somewhat dysfunctional - addressing this particular issue within the department. There was a strong forceful move - and these are my terms, not Dr. Kendrick's terms - within the department not to proceed on this issue and this is the reason why it seems to be somewhat lagging.
I will tell you, Mr. Minister, that there are actions taken by the department that may be in direct conflict with some of the recommendations of Dr. Kendrick's report and, if not, it was a matter if this blue ribbon panel committee were in place, it would offer direction to the minister on how to proceed. I know that my colleague, the member for Halifax Needham, had talked about Sunrise Manor and the transition from the Cole Harbour Rehab Centre to
Sunrise Manor of a number of individuals who, in fact, are mental health consumers. That was done without any consultation with anyone within the community with respect to the kind of effect that that might have. I think therein lies the concern that the department is moving on without any consultation among these different agencies and if, in fact, that blue ribbon committee were in place, Mr. Minister, you would have had the opportunity to put that as a directive to the blue ribbon committee on how best to achieve the result.
Also, it is my understanding, and you may be wrong, but I'm wondering if there are plans to build a 30-unit institution for persons with intellectual disabilities, that's another question. The other question I will ask you is, do you have money set aside, because there will be an administrative cost in setting up a blue ribbon committee if, in fact, your department is going to do that. Do you have money set aside in this budget to start the action of a blue ribbon committee?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member asked a number of questions. Let me start with the first question - did we meet with the coalition? The answer is yes. I met with them, I believe it was last Spring. We had an opportunity to meet with them with the Department of Health prior to that and in the meeting in the Fall, department people met with them.
Your comment in terms of Sunrise Manor - I had a discussion yesterday with the honourable members for Dartmouth-Cole Harbour and Halifax Needham regarding that. I indicated our consultation on that was with people on the Board of Directors of the Halifax County Regional Rehabilitation Centre. I think the honourable member recalls the department had provided the opportunity for members of his group to come to the department to talk about some of the initiatives.
The honourable member raises the initiative of the 30 unit ARC that was going to be built. As I indicated yesterday, the plan was that we were going to have that facility on the same property as the Halifax County Rehab centre and the intent that HRM was going to provide the land and we would build the facility. As I indicated yesterday, HRM chose not to follow that route so in the course of events, the Board of Directors of the Halifax County Rehab had indicated they wanted to remain involved. They were a group that had been working with these people for a substantial number of years and they wanted to be involved with them and so they formed a group called Quest, a non-profit association that we've been dealing with. They've been very directly involved with the discussions of Sunrise Manor and the people moving to Sunrise Manor. That group has been looking at a group home and they have acquired a small options home in the Lawrencetown area that they're opening. They're looking at acquiring two more. What I'm suggesting to you here is, there has been consultation with that group of people. They have been involved with us on that.
The other group that has been extremely important in all of this are the families of the people that are in Halifax County - where people are going to be located and the plan of where they're going now and where they will be. We've been looking at this, moving the 11 residents out. We had been meeting with the families, but the families have also indicated that the Board of Directors of the Halifax County Rehab, still staying involved is something that they view as a good option. So they see them as people that we should be consulting with and indeed we have.
I think your other point was in terms of the small building we're going to be building and moving out. We have 11 people moving out into a residential area and we view that as being consistent with the Kendrick report because one of the things - and I was just chatting to the member for Glace Bay on this - he had suggested is that we have to have a range of options that people might choose this kind of facility, might choose that kind of facility, might choose to stay home half the time. We view that as one of the mix of the range of facilities that Dr. Kendrick has been talking about. Indeed, that view has been supported by the directors of the Halifax County Rehab Centre as they support us and work with us in moving these people to a new location.
MR. PYE: Just quickly, Mr. Chairman, the minister didn't respond as to whether there was money set aside to bring about the implementation of the blue ribbon committee.
[11:00 a.m.]
MR. CHRISTIE: We have monies, Mr. Chairman. We build monies into our budget each year for consultation, be it the blue ribbon committee, be it the other groups that we meet with. We have to build money in for consultations that we're having with Children's Aid Societies. Money is in our budget to have those consultations, to have those deliberations, so that money is there as the blue ribbon committee comes along and other committees of the Children's Aid Society come along. Yes, we build those monies in for consultation and for community involvement.
MR. PYE: The minister's quite right - he builds the money in for consultation, there's no question. He didn't answer the question though, Mr. Chairman, with respect to whether there was money specifically set aside for the implementation of the blue ribbon committee. The other question I have for the minister - and I do believe that the Minister of Health may have talked about this just briefly in the late debate last night - one of the seven recommendations was that the Department of Community Services and the Department of Health should resolve their creation of a single community system to serve persons with mental disorders within the two years. I'm wondering are those consultations going on now? What is the time frame to see these departments working in unison to address the issue?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, that is a question that the departments have been working on. When do I see it happening? We will continue to work on that. One of the areas of greatest challenge to us is to combine those. As the honourable member recalls back last Fall when we were talking about mental health initiatives and initiatives for children with mental illness, we identified that as an area that we had to work on, that we had to get rid of the walls on that, that the departments had to start operating together. We see that as a major initiative and we will be working on that with all possible haste so we can achieve those objectives and the goals that people were talking about last night in the late debate.
MR. PYE: I know that the minister this week - much the same as myself - received the Psychiatric Facilities Review Board's report for April 1, 2001 to March 31, 2002. The minister is very much aware that they were quite concerned that there was no evidence as a result of the Kendrick report of creation of a single community system nor even any knowledge of establishment of a working party within the Department of Community Services itself around this whole issue. It was quite critical of the government's inability to move, particularly the Department of Community Services and the Department of Health around mental health issues. I'm wondering if the minister can respond to that report?
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes, as the honourable member indicated, the report came out this week. That report indicates that more work needs to be done in those areas and I think in some of the areas of children's mental health, those are the areas that we have been working with. We still have the major initiatives that we have to resolve in terms of the age barriers and where people go at certain times. I don't dispute the fact that we, as a government, have to do a better job for that segment and get the departments co-aligned together.
I think one of the areas that we talked about yesterday was the introduction of a secure treatment facility that's coming onstream this year. It will play a small part in some of those areas. It will help with providing some further options within the range of children's services - whether they're day programs we're switching to at Dayspring, whether they're secure care - those are options that are provided. There need to be a lot more options. There needs to be more cohesion with the Department of Health and I certainly don't dispute that. When will we have that achieved? We will be working on making that one of our major objectives. As we indicated in our business plan this year, one of our major objectives this year was to come together with Health to resolve a number of those issues and we will be working on it as diligently as we can.
MR. PYE: Time is going by very fast, Mr. Chairman, and one doesn't realize how quickly time goes by. I don't have much time remaining in my allocated time, and I want to make sure that I've covered a number of bases, so I'm going to go rather quickly into other areas.
The area with respect to persons with disabilities. The minister is aware, and I believe he can correct me if I'm wrong, that the HRDC agreement with respect to the EAPD Program - I should say that's an acronym for Employment Assistance for Persons with Disabilities - that program, I believe it ends next year, and I'm wondering where that fits in with respect to the provincial government's assistance to persons with disabilities, and is there a new design or a new agreement coming forward to carry that forward after the expiration of that period of time?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, yes, we did have the opportunity the other day to talk about the numbers of people in the EAPD Program and the programs that were going on there. I did also indicate to the honourable member the other day that at the federal forum, we, as a province, had indicated one of the areas that we saw as being a national agenda item was disability. We talked the other day about having the largest disabled population percentage in the country, something that we had to speak of. We had talked about bringing that to the national agenda and, indeed, we will keep doing that.
Yes, the first round of the EAPD has a sunset clause on it, but in terms of any discussions we've had at the national level, there has never really been any intent that that program was going to stop. There are still, obviously, discussions with the federal government as to how that's going to carry on and what the provinces will do. No doubt, as I indicated at our meeting of Social Services Ministers at the end of May, obviously that will be a major topic on the agenda.
In terms of the discussions at the national level, yes, the program timeline will be coming to an end, but I don't sense any national trend that that is closing down and that that will be stopping. There will, perhaps, be further discussions as to how it goes forward, but I don't have a sense that that program is coming to an end.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, I guess there is somewhat of a backlog, and I'm wondering if the minister can tell me if there's a backlog for individuals with disabilities seeking assistance through the EAPD Program and is there a way to address this particular concern within the department? I guess I will leave it at that for now.
MR. CHRISTIE: I am reminded, thinking in terms of the programs that we had talked about, and as I did indicate to the honourable member the other day, we're getting involved with three pilot programs with the federal government in terms of disabled people to try to provide additional supports, provide those things that they need for children and adults, and in terms of the care they need. It's a test program across the country; it's a program leaning towards what the real challenges of people with disabilities are and what their needs are. We're quite pleased to have been selected as a province to lead with that.
The other question you had in terms of the EAPD Program, yes, there are people still waiting. The number of lists that we had involved was more substantial a year ago. There were a number of people able to come on it, but there is still a waiting list at this point in time.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to try to rush through these rather quickly, because, as I said earlier, time is of the essence here. I met with some people in some advocacy groups within the disabled community, and the advocacy groups within the disabled community are quite concerned with respect to barrier-free access. They want to know if the Minister of Community Services has talked to the minister responsible for the building codes and to make sure that there are consistent compliance with the building codes around making sure that not only public facilities are accessible but private facilities and institutions are accessible to persons with disabilities as well. I guess I'm wondering, through you to the Minister of Community Services, how forceful is the department with respect to making these issues a priority within the department?
MR. CHRISTIE: We have had an opportunity to meet with the department on a number of occasions, the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. Generally we have met with people from the disabled community, Lauchie Rutt is usually there, people from the People First group are generally there, and the discussion has centered around a number of areas. The honourable member is certainly aware of the transportation projects that are going on across the province in three different areas. We meet and we discuss those.
The last time we were meeting with that group and Service Nova Scotia was around the program grants for community buildings and making buildings more accessible for the disabled. The question that Service Nova Scotia was asking was, is that program serving the needs of Nova Scotia, is it meeting a number of the needs? As we had that meeting, it was indicated that that program still had a lot of support throughout the disabled community and indeed our area.
Yes, we do meet with them on a number of areas, certainly in terms of housing as we look at the facilities that are being constructed and as we look under the programs for the affordable housing and the homeless initiatives, we look at those. As far as our input is concerned, we know we have to move so that more and more of them are accessible.
In terms of the building codes and in terms of bylaw enforcement that the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations has, those have been involved in the discussions we've had, but mainly our discussions have focused on the transportation areas, those programs and initiatives, and the initiatives towards the facilities of public buildings. We clearly, in terms of housing, are looking for designs as we move forward that are barrier-free designs and renovations.
As the honourable member will remember, this year Housing Services picks out particular areas and designs that are done, and they have awards to people for most innovation and other areas. One of the design areas this year that the honourable member will be aware of was for a barrier-free design. The department's Housing Services Division is promoting those areas as we look toward barrier-free designs and renovations that are designed for the disabled groups.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, the minister is very much aware that even government involvement, sometimes, tends to overlook the seriousness with respect to making their facilities barrier-free. I want to tell the minister that his government was involved in the home on Gerrish Street for homeless individuals. That, in itself, leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to barrier-free accessibility for persons with disabilities. That's just one example of the most recent. The disabled community recognizes that, and I don't know how much influence his department can have; subdivisions and developments of subdivisions and so on go on without much thought given to making them barrier-free or accessible to persons with disabilities. I know the minister might just want to briefly comment about that.
I also want to talk to the minister about the government's hiring practices with respect to persons with disabilities. The government knows that it procures contracts with private sector individuals as well, and I'm wondering how far the government has moved with respect to hiring practices and encouraging those who do business with government to hire persons with disabilities, as well as the government itself, what kind of a track record?
[11:15 a.m.]
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, the question surrounding the hiring practices with the department, obviously hiring goes through the Public Service Commission. As the honourable member knows, those fair hiring practices are involved there. We certainly follow all those rules and regulations as it goes through them. We indeed have opportunities and areas where people with disabilities become involved in the program. As I indicated, our thrust is through the Public Service Commission and the fair-hiring practices that they employ. That is the same as we do too, as our employment is regulated through there and our people are hired through there.
MR. PYE: Okay then, just briefly, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the minister, can he tell me out of the number of individuals who have been hired by the province within the last year or two years, how many persons with disabilities have actually been hired and what is that ratio?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, no, I don't have that data, but we will request that from the Public Service Commission and we will certainly be happy to table that information for the honourable member.
MR. PYE: Mr. Chairman, I want to go into housing now. The minister is very much aware that the public housing stock, for the most part, was built some 25 to 30 years ago. The housing stock has aged, it's unhealthy, and it's in need of repair. There is a community action group on homelessness that has talked about much of this issue around public housing and around the public housing stock. I know the minister has had consultation with them. There are some representatives that liaise between the federal government and the provincial government on the issue of housing. I do know, as well, back, I believe, in 1998, the provincial government had a report, and don't quote me on that if I'm not correct in stating the actual report, but it was towards a new direction in housing in Nova Scotia. It may have been a report or something to that nature. The minister has had that in his possession for a couple of years and there are several recommendations with respect to how to develop housing in the Province of Nova Scotia.
We recognize that, yes, in 1993, the federal government decided to opt out of the housing business and ask the provincial governments to take over, I would say, the maintenance of the existing housing stock that was in the domain of the federal government. Some of that was in fact seniors' housing, public housing and co-op housing. There was a bag of money that came down and it comes down every year from the federal government to the minister to administer to those housing stocks, particularly around co-op housing. Many of the co-op housing groups have gone into receivership. They are now in the hands of private individuals, yet that money continues to flow into the purse of the minister.
I'm wondering if the minister can tell me, I know that the minister has already said that, in fact, they've got this $4 million initiative to be able to tap into the federal government's housing strategy of some $18 million over a period of time, but $4 million seems rather insignificant for the seriousness of the housing crisis that I see in Nova Scotia. There are long waiting lists. The housing stock is old. It was built at times when there were large families and many of that housing stock needs to be redesigned, redeveloped. There are people out there in the community who are waiting for housing because, as the minister is very much aware, shelter is a determinant of health as well and that's been recognized nationally across the country, that if one doesn't have decent shelter, then one is likely to inherit a number of difficulties that may lead them to end up in hospitals with particular ailments. So I'm wondering, can the minister tell us briefly just exactly what direction housing is going?
MR. CHRISTIE: Mr. Chairman, I think there were a number of questions and issues that you raised here and one was in terms of projects that were in difficulty. I know the honourable member and I have had discussions about some of the co-ops in his area and we had some discussion, but the honourable member made note of a number that were in receivership. I just want to clarify that impression so people don't leave thinking that there are a number in receivership. There are a number in difficulty that the department is working with and the department is working with them in terms of helping them restructure. I think I've had the discussion with the honourable member before about the National Association
of Housing Cooperatives that has been in this area, and talking to us on a variety of those areas. Indeed, I think the honourable knows that one of the co-ops in the southern part of the province had some issues and had to have a major restructuring and that one's being worked on and a number of others are being worked on, too. So, yes, that's part of the ongoing initiative to stabilize it.
The other part, as I mentioned, in terms of the federal program you raised, in terms of the affordability one, and as we met as housing ministers in Quebec City, the federal government had indicated that if provinces wanted to be part of that, obviously part of that program was going to be a 50/50 sharing and that people had to show that they were going to participate and they had to be able to indicate that they had the money available and that they weren't just going to tie up federal money saying, yes, we think we can and we might be able to. They had to be