HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

Mr. John MacDonell (Chairman)

Hon. Barry Barnet

Hon. Karen Casey

Mr. Patrick Dunn

Mr. Sterling Belliveau

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

Mr. Wayne Gaudet

Mr. Leo Glavine

Mr. Harold Theriault

In Attendance:

Ms. Rhonda Neatt

Legislative Committee Clerk

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 2007

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

10:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. John MacDonell

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning committee members. It is nice to see everyone who is available. I hope people are well rested.

A couple of things before we get to the meat of the agenda setting. I'm assuming that all of you know, but maybe you don't, that Rhonda is not going to continue as our clerk. She opted not to apply for the big job, so I want to say thanks on behalf of the committee, we appreciated having you. Are you going back to Hansard?

MS. RHONDA NEATT (Legislative Committee Clerk): Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we'll see all of our comments in the future embellished and enlightened through your work at Hansard, I'm sure.

In the meantime, we do have a new clerk, Charlene Rice, who will be working with the Committees Office. I also want to introduce a researcher from the Legislative Library, Heather Ludlow sitting in the middle of the table there. She is going to help put the packages together in the folders, for whichever groups come forward.

You'll see that probably the NDP members were the most hardy in terms of putting together any new requests to come before committee. Actually, what I was hoping to see was what we had submitted before that never got on, before adding any more. So that's part of the reason why we didn't really go chafing at the bit to throw more to the committee. So that is what our members had submitted before and which we never had before the Resources Committee. As far as we're concerned, those are still pertinent and appropriate.

I know we do have some flexibility in terms of what members bring before the committee because some of our previous meetings were actually pretty much ad hoc in a sense that there was an issue and it came before the committee to have a presenter and that would happen very quickly, they weren't on anybody's list. So I know that from time to time that will happen.

So I think for us what we need to do, I guess, is determine who our first presenters are going to be next month and - well, we probably should have a couple, I guess, because we're going to need to notify them. I think as much as there is consensus between at least two - and I see some between the PC and Liberal caucuses - I definitely see some of the same names, which would seem to be a sensible approach. I think previously, there were one or two that we had that the Liberals had or that the Progressive Conservatives had and that was because two caucuses were interested in the same group - that is kind of how we went.

Anyway, I'm kind of interested in opening up to the floor to see if there's a particular burning issue that members would like to see come before the committee first, or if there's something in the caucuses' previous lists or present lists that you think is appropriate for the time or there is somebody who has waited a long time, whatever. Anyway, we're open for comments.

Mr. Glavine, am I seeing you raising your pen?

MR. LEO GLAVINE: No, nothing pressing, you're looking at maybe September or October, is that what you wanted?

MR. CHAIRMAN: October.

MR. GLAVINE: This will be our September event, is that it? Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: October 23^rd.

MR. GLAVINE: I mean if there is one area, taking a look at recent developments in the province, where certainly some problems are looming, that is the forestry sector and getting somebody from a forestry group in here to give us a little overview and outlook of the kind of impacts that are just around the corner. Certainly, probably even more serious than what we see at the moment. Right across from Washington State to Maine, lumberyards are filled up. There's almost no capacity for more fibre going across the border. I guess I see some negative implications for Nova Scotia here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm curious about whether - I don't think for me to use the term "flesh it out" as much as "thin it down" but can you be more specific. Do you want Forest Products Association or do you have a group in mind?

MR. GLAVINE: Well, I think the Woodlot Owners Association and Forest Products Association maybe. I think getting a couple of these groups in together sometimes has proven beneficial.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I'm thinking they're probably on the same page, but not necessarily specifically. Anybody else? Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to concur with that suggestion as well because the forestry is facing a number of problems and also in relationship to the pulp mills as well. That industry - we have been fortunate in Nova Scotia that we haven't had a closure but throughout the country and North America we are seeing a lot of problems in that sector as well. So I would like to see some representation from there at some point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just wondering if you're thinking that's the same presentation, whether the pulp mill sector is a separate meeting. The Nova Scotia Forest Products and Woodlot Owners Association, or a combination of the two and now pulp mills, so I'm thinking we should kind of focus a little more.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I think that the problems in the forestry are significant enough to perhaps have a couple of sessions on forestry. At some point, I would like to see some departmental people here - DNR people here - to discuss resource allocation issues with us. Right now, there is a tremendous vying for hardwood and value-added and so on. There's actually a queue that is developing and there are projects from Cape Breton and Sheet Harbour and from Pictou County and from southwestern Nova Scotia and so on. There's actually a queue lining up looking for resource from the unlicensed Crown land and also looking at agreements with some of the existing Crown land holders, like Stora Enso and so on.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll cut you there. Okay, this is getting - that's what I asked for, what people were interested in. I want to remind the committee that as far as when we met last time, we had about four that actually turned out to be connected to CFIA and the longhorn beetle situation. That was actually one month where nobody showed up so we lost that month for presentations - we had about four months tied up on forestry issues along the longhorn beetle.

[10:15 a.m.]

Then we had a couple of meetings around the seal issue, the conservation group and the preservation group. So in light of where you're going - I mean, you've mentioned the hardwood situation so we have Finewood Flooring from Cape Breton on our list. Also as far as the Auditor General and the Department of Natural Resources, we have the Auditor General's Report on forest inventory. We've never had that presentation.

I think Mr. Glavine was kind of interested in the state of the industry, number one, and the fact that we seem to have a glut. We're going to have lumber movement, I think if that's what you're trying to say. So my thought is, the best organization to speak to that is probably Nova Scotia Forest Products Association. They could probably talk on the pulp, if anybody was to ask them, depending on if it's John Porter from Bowater Mersey. I think he is Past President of Forest Products Association but anyway, certainly he could probably speak broader. Do you want to try to get woodlot owners as part of that?

MR. GLAVINE: No, maybe going with Forest Products because they do have reach across the entire province and I'd be content to start with them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Theriault.

MR. THERIAULT: Well, I thought the Department of Natural Resources was mentioned. I believe we should have the Department of Natural Resources at this committee maybe a couple of times, to tell us what the future of all our natural resources are - with our trees, with our fish, with our land, with our coastal communities.

If they have a vision for the resources, I think we should know about it. So I believe that might take two or three meetings, maybe all winter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: They have been before us, actually, and they spoke to us around the longhorn beetle issue. You have to keep in mind the department really speaks to mining and forestry. I mean if you want to talk fisheries or whatever, you're going to have to . . .

MR. THERIAULT: Well we could go with our coastal land of this province. Is there any direction for it or are we just going to sell if off to foreign countries, or what is going to go on there? I think we have to pull a Danny Williams here and say, stop the natural resource thing and look at that. We need the Department of Natural Resources here to answer some questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm not going to argue with it. I'm thinking that you want to be very clear that you're talking Crown, as opposed to private.

MR. THERIAULT: The whole province.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to hear something from the Progressive Conservative members of the committee, if they have a direction for where they'd like to see the committee go.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: With regard to other topics?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I mean we have a potential witness list from your caucus, which is pretty . . .

MR. DUNN: A couple come to mind; the Nova Scotia Egg Producers Association, I think it is probably 10 years since they have appeared before this committee. You mentioned in your initial statements about hot topics, one that comes to mind is wind energy, one that seems to be taking a lot of attention across the province. I'm not sure . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: You're not sure who would come in?

MR. DUNN: No, I have no idea where we should go with wind energy as far as maybe the Minas Basin but it just seems to be a topic that's at the forefront.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You're not sure if you want a proponent who is interested in a business in wind energy, or do you want the position of the government?

MR. DUNN: Just basically what is happening across the province with regard to wind energy and the pros and cons.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well it's certainly timely, I would say. Mr. Belliveau.

MR. STERLING BELLIVEAU: The area, I just wanted to lead in there, that is not being looked at is the tidal power. I think that is something we need to be paying attention to and there's potential there and I'd love to hear the different scenarios regarding that topic.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, and I see the Federation of Agriculture Food Miles Project here, one on the Conservative list, so I think that's kind of a sensible one. Okay, well I guess we could narrow it down to two, I think. One for October and one for November would get us started. So can we kind of pick and choose, like I think the Nova Scotia Forest Products Association for number one and somebody on the wind energy, maybe wind energy/tidal power, if that is possible for number two for November, Mr. Dunn. Would you be okay with that? Mr. Barnet.

MR. BARNET: I think you folks had suggested last year the Renewable Energy Industry Association. I guess they would be as good as anybody and it would cross over the varieties - that will get us started and we can see where it goes from there and we can determine, I guess, maybe at the end of the second meeting, particularly as it relates to the forest industry, who is next or whether we want to go to another witness on that. Would that be fine?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. And that would give all the caucuses a bit of a chance to kind of rethink where we might want to go. So are we satisfied with those two choices for October and November?

MR. BARNET: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, good. Ms. Neatt, is that neat enough for you?

MS. NEATT: I think so, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good. I want to raise an issue around the subcommittee. I don't think I was entirely aware - but it wouldn't necessarily be the first time - the funding for the subcommittee really comes out of whatever funding there is for the Resources Committee, as far as getting people here and some of those are the only costs that are associated.

So other subcommittees really do just more of an agenda setting. They don't really hear from outside groups in the way that our subcommittee works, so they don't really draw down on any funding from the actual committee. So this is something we're going to have to kind of take a look at because the whole function, we thought - I think our plan for the subcommittee was to actually get those people in to speak to a group that couldn't get on the list for the regular committee. So we're really going to have to take a look at whatever possible costs are going to be associated with this.

I may have to speak with the Speaker's Office because the whole point wasn't really to take away from the Resources Committee, it was to add to the Resources Committee. So this is one I think we're going to have to take a second look at because it's kind of affecting our financial allotment for the Resources Committee by drawing down to pay for things for the subcommittee, which I actually wasn't aware that that was going to be the case. So anyway, that's one that I think we better - I guess probably maybe the sensible way for this is for me to write the Speaker on this?

MS. NEATT: I'm not sure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You're going to be gone. Anyway, I think that's probably what I should do, I just want to look for some input from the committee members as to where you want to go with this but I think probably some clarification from the Speaker's Office would probably be appropriate because we don't want to mess up our resources for the Resources Committee.

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: I'm just curious, this committee has the budget to pay to bring some witnesses to appear before the committee?

MS. NEATT: Yes, I believe so.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Otherwise I don't know what other resources there would be because I'm assuming that staff is being paid. I mean that really shouldn't be, you know.

MR. GAUDET: Are you aware of how much of a budget this committee has?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no, really it wasn't an issue until Rhonda mentioned it to me this morning.

MR. THERIAULT: When Sterling and I first brought this to the attention of this Resources Committee I went to the Speaker myself. It seemed to be okay with him. I don't know if he has to do that in writing, but he okayed it as long as it was okay with this committee. So maybe the Speaker's Office needs to be approached again.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, or at least get some clarification as to where Rhonda's concern came from because . . .

MR. THERIAULT: I believe this coming year, I think that we have a chance to bring two or three groups in, especially in the fishery. I know there is one pressing here now that we kind of promised to bring in this fall from problems in the Cape Breton area.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. I think I better seek some clarification as to if it is a problem and why it is a problem and maybe not too much of a problem, so I'll see what I can do about that.

MR. THERIAULT: Maybe we needed to carry it further and we didn't, but I know he personally gave me the okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well I could just blame it on you. (Laughter)

MR. THERIAULT: You can, I take all the blame.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There's another issue and it seems like it probably should be an issue. When we were trying to form a subcommittee we actually needed a member from the Progressive Conservative caucus or it wasn't going to happen, but as it turned out, the person who volunteered was Alfie MacLeod but Alfie MacLeod is not on the Resources Committee. So that seems like an odd thing, that he probably should be part of the Resources Committee. I don't know how much of a problem but it's obvious it is one that you've raised. Did somebody bring this to you? Who did?

MS. NEATT: Marg Murphy, my supervisor.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your supervisor, okay. Well obviously somebody thinks it is an issue. So that's one I better track down as well because if that's the case, maybe presently the subcommittee might be defunct if it turns out that we can't use Mr. MacLeod. So anyway, I'll see what I can find out about that and bring that back to the committee.

Minister Barnet, nobody has talked to you?

MR. BARNET: No, the difficulty that we have is that we have so many members of our caucus who are in Cabinet and it is just absolutely impossible to fulfill all the obligations and add subcommittees. It does make it very difficult to . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Get members, get enough people, enough bodies.

MR. BARNET: Right. Then there's the concern, too, about cross meetings, committees meeting at the same time and that kind of stuff.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well we notice that even for us. I think we would probably be willing between the Liberals and the New Democrats to help relieve the Tory ministers of their ministerial portfolios, so as much as it might be possible. (Laughter)

MR. BARNET: No, that's not our problem. (Laughter) Our problem is that we actually are looking to do the same thing with the members of both of the other Parties. Then we could have more members and then it would make the work of us easier.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well we appreciate the offer and . . .

MR. BARNET: You accept it? Okay, good, there's one seat. Anyone else?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Don't be in a rush. Any other issues that members might have? Mr. Dunn.

MR. DUNN: If we're looking at a witness for the next two months, should we have a backup? What if one of them cannot make it, should we have another one that we all agree on?

MR. CHAIRMAN: A third one. Well we'll assume that if our first choice for October can't happen, that number two will move there, but it might not be a bad idea to have a number three to plan for November, then.

MR. BARNET: Why wouldn't we pick the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture on the Food Miles project and that way we've got at least one in the bag, right? They're always anxious to come anyway.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And probably in the light of minority government, it looks like that would kind of be one from every caucus in the lineup.

MR. BARNET: Pretty much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. MACKINNON: I think that's a great idea, to have a third one and that was going to be my suggestion as well. However, I'm wondering if we can tie in the Nova Scotia Cattlemen's Association with the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture - have both in at the same time. My fundamental concern with the cattle producers in this province is, as committee members know, we are consuming about 8 or 9 per cent of beef that is produced in Nova Scotia and that is appalling; 91 or 92 per cent is coming from elsewhere and I think the two are sort of tied together in a way.

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well I'm going to say - and maybe it is because I'm the Agriculture Critic - my thought is you could spend a whole session with the Cattlemen's Association and I think Minister Barnet indicated about the Food Miles. I guess the question other associations might have is why the cattlemen and not the blueberry growers or whatever. If you're going to bring in one with the federation, I mean the federation is kind of the boys for the whole industry so I think it would probably be more appropriate considering what you just indicated as the magnitude of the problem and when it comes to cattlemen and the amount of beef that's brought into the province, probably we should think about a session with them alone and not piggy-back them on to another session with the federation.

The only thing it might accomplish for you is to get them here sooner, but certainly, I think, probably the issue is big enough to try to get them. The PC caucus has them on their list and the Liberal caucus - I think I saw it on here. I guess I didn't. (Interruption) On their old list.

MR. BARNET: On their old list, it doesn't appear on your list.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And now you're raising it so I mean obviously all three caucuses are interested and I think maybe bring them in as a separate group, on their own some day.

MR. MACKINNON: Just as a followup, though, we have had the blueberry producers in. We've had the pork producers in and this is an area that we should give some attention to fairly soon. I'm concerned if we put it off for months that they won't have an opportunity. Certainly, blueberries are in a lot better shape than our cattle producers. We have a Pictou County Cattle Producers Association that I deal with and they are not a happy segment of the industry.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I think probably getting them - unless some of those guys will be starting to - well, we won't need all the farmers. Wintertime is probably is a good downtime to try to get them so another three months or four months wouldn't hurt, rather

than heading on into Spring where they might be more busy. So I think it probably would work.

When we had those others, the blueberry growers and the hog producers, I don't think we had them in conjunction with the federation - they were stand-alone. So that kind of adds to my argument about bringing the cattle producers in as a stand-alone group and maybe just a little later on - on the farm, they might be less busy but it might work better for them as well.

In my view, I'm not trying to be the say-so for this committee. I just think their issue is probably big enough that just because you raised it, for them to come alone.

Mr. Theriault.

MR. THERIAULT: As the chairman of the subcommittee, if the subcommittee goes ahead, I would like to request that we be able to bring in a group of fish packers from the Canso area - I believe this is wrong on here, North of Smokey - but anyway, I can find that out.

What I need to do is be able to have that request from this committee, to be able to go ahead with this if we clear it with the Speaker and we get a member from the PC Party to go ahead with it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. I don't think this committee would have a problem and the members can speak for themselves. So I think - let me find out about the subcommittee, the funding and the member as quick as I can, then I'll get back to you on that.

MR. BARNET: With respect to our agenda - I think, if I'm clear in listening to what has been said, we have agreed that we'll have the Forest Products Association, renewable energy as a backup or one in the bag, the Federation of Agriculture . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. Food Miles, yes.

MR. BARNET: . . . and at some point in time at the end of our second meeting, we will take half an hour or something to look down the road for our next meeting. In the event that we get the two, we'll at least have the agriculture that can be the third one and that'll give us time to organize four, five and six. Is that agreed?

MR. CHAIRMAN: That sounds sensible.

MR. BARNET: Do you need a motion for that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't think we do, actually.

MR. BARNET: Okay, good. We're good to go.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions or issues? Well, I think we can say we're adjourned. Thank you very much.

[The committee adjourned at 10:35 a.m.]