HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

Mr. John MacDonell (Chairman)

Hon. Ernest Fage

Hon. Barry Barnet

Mr. Patrick Dunn

Mr. Sterling Belliveau

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

Mr. Wayne Gaudet

Mr. Leo Glavine

Mr. Harold Theriault

[Hon. Ernest Fage was replaced by Mr. Chuck Porter.]

In Attendance:

Ms. Mora Stevens

Legislative Committee Clerk

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 5, 2006

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

1:00 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. John MacDonell

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, good afternoon, members of the Resources Committee and certainly a welcome to new members who have been elected and it is nice to see the minister, Honourable Barry Barnet, here to join the fold.

One of the first things we should take care of is the appointment of the committee vice-chairman. I will say that it is kind of a tradition - because of the fact that I'm with the New Democratic Party and the chairman - that the vice-chairman would not come from the New Democrat members. For some years, the honourable Bill Dooks had been the vice-chairman from the Conservative caucus, and about a month before the writ was dropped, Mr. Gaudet became the vice-chairman. So I'm curious if the committee is fine with allowing Mr. Gaudet to continue.

HON. BARRY BARNET: Don't we call for nominations, isn't that normally what we do?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if you don't want to take my suggestion, we will call for nominations. Okay.

So nominations for vice-chairman of the committee.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: I nominate Mr. Wayne Gaudet.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other nominations? Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: I nominate Pat Dunn.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Pat Dunn, okay. Any other nominations?

Would all those in favour of Mr. Wayne Gaudet as vice-chairman, please raise your hand.

That would be a majority.

The motion is carried.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Okay, a review of the briefing book. I will let Mora Stevens do that, please.

MS. MORA STEVENS (Legislative Committee Clerk): Hello. I'm Mora Stevens, for those new members who don't remember me, we met over in the Chamber, a few months ago now I guess. What is done for each of the standing committees is a briefing book is put together and this holds all the information concerning the Resources Committee. What we have done is put together terms of references, committee reports, legal opinions that have been gathered for various standing committees, the legislation in Nova Scotia that gives the committees their powers, as well as rules throughout the rest of Canada and the U.K. So if there are any questions that members have concerning committees or if they were looking into doing a minority report or they wanted some issue, this is the guide that has everything in it. We always encourage everybody to call us if they want, but you do have the information in this briefing book.

At the beginning you will see the functions and services that we provide in the Committees Office and who we are, the meeting times, and it also gives you a little outline of some of the other committees so you know when they meet monthly.

We try to keep to a regular schedule of meetings, for example, Resources has traditionally met once a month on Tuesdays; in the morning when the House is sitting and in the afternoons when the House is not in session. It helps members to be able to get in in the afternoon, but of course that certainly is up to the committee. If they wanted to change their time or their date or their day, that is a committee decision, but we have other committees that meet, so it has sort of worked out that Tuesday has been the best day for this committee.

It goes through notices, also polling of a committee. I know recently with the Economic Development Committee, even though it hasn't met yet, there was a poll done

to hold an emergency meeting. It's something we do if an issue comes up, everyone is contacted by e-mail, they're asked for their opinion, then, in conjunction with, usually, the chairman and the vice-chairman, once they're appointed, the clerk will discuss the issue that has come forward, and then members' opinions are sought. So we always ask that if you get these e-mails that you respond. We try to track you down, because certain things can come up, emergencies such as what the Economic Development Committee is going through right now.

There is a procedure in place on the poll, so you can be assured that you will be contacted, someone in your caucus who is assigned as the researcher to the committee will be contacted, just to make sure that everybody has been asked about the issue. Sometimes the timing is very short, so we try to track people down quite quickly.

There's a procedure for calling witnesses. We ask that if anyone gets correspondence for the committee that they direct it to the clerk, that way it can be distributed to all the committee members. If there's an issue, if somebody wants to appear, just have them call this office, and then we can make sure that they know the proper format and how to address the issue, who to contact. We give them the information. So if there's anything at all that you want to talk to us about at any time, we're here.

We sort of go through our stages, what we do in a first meeting, the annual reports, the committee records are held in this office, so there's always a continuous record of a committee, and then we have access to them for the past. We try to stay as organized as possible.

Other than that, the committee has a Web site, as well, and it goes through all of the transcripts from all the past meetings, as well as annual reports and the mandate of the committee and issues. The library has set up Web sites for each of the standing committees, which is very good and very helpful, because it gives you a background on an issue.

We will put together briefing books that go out one week prior to a committee meeting. I do them. You will have the paper copy, but as much as possible it is in electronic format as well, you'll get an electronic table of contents. So if you don't happen to have your briefing book with you, you can go in and click on the URLs and be able to access the information. If anybody has any questions, you can feel free to ask or call us at any time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I guess there are no questions. Caucuses were asked to submit a list of who they would be interested in having appear before the committee. It's to pick from all three caucuses some common ground - just looking to the near future, I think probably at least from here until Christmas, and then

maybe a re-look at who might appear after. Some of this will depend on who is requested and their ability to appear. There may be somebody that all three caucuses say, look, this is who we want to see, and perhaps right away, but, for whatever reason, things are affecting their agendas and they may not be able to show up for four months or some such thing. It may require a bit of a re-look.

I'm really looking for some suggestions or input from members of the committee. Along with this, I'm going to move right on to the additional requests, only because I might as well do it now as any time. Prior to the writ being dropped, the Grey Seal Conservation Society was booked to come in on May 16^th. We know that they're ready to go. I'm just looking for some comment from the committee, if they would be fine with them being our first group - I think you were saying somewhere around the first part of October.

MS. STEVENS: They are available, if that is the committee's wish.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Depending on the availability of the caucus members, from all three caucuses, if you're not going on retreat or going to be away or any such thing, the closest time that all members are available, I just wonder, if you're fine with them since they were previously booked and we know that all the work has been done to get them here.

MR. BARNET: Who is the Grey Seal Conservation Society, and what was the intention in bringing them in, what were they going to be examined on?

MR. CHAIRMAN: We had Denny Morrow, and I can't think of the name of the organization.

MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: The Grey Seal Research and Development Society.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Grey Seal Research and Development Society had made a presentation around harvesting seals. So this organization wanted to come and provide another perspective on that issue. We thought, well, the original intent in having them kind of back to back would be a good way for members to get two different perspectives on that issue, although a little time has elapsed since then. They're the ones we had booked, and they're ready to go. All the preparation has been done by the Committees Office to bring them in.

MR. BARNET: This is not the group that wants to harvest seals, this is the one that wants to conserve the seals. Is that right?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think actually, without getting their presentation, I'm not sure I can answer that. I think they had some concerns about the harvesting, I'm not sure if they were necessarily opposed without certain conditions or things being considered.

MS. STEVENS: From what I understand from one of the witnesses, they wanted to talk about the ecosystem and the effect, and also possible public health risks.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The occurrence of brucellosis in the seal herd.

MR. BARNET: They're not putting baby seals in your bed and stuff like that are they? (Laughter)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.

[1:15 p.m.]

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to see this group as the first to appear. I would also like to have, perhaps, another group as a further balance, the North of Smokey-Inverness South Fishermen's Association.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are they actually on our list, or on anybody's list?

MR. MACKINNON: I think the seal situation has to be addressed. It's one of the most serious things that is facing the fishing industry in this province. This was a grave concern when the population was 30,000 animals in the Sable Island colony, which is considered to be the general colony around the Scotian Shelf, and today we have over 400,000 animals in that colony. I think we have to address this issue, and we have to address it early in this province. It's of fundamental importance to the survival of some of our industry people.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we move on to who might be second, I think we should address whether or not we want this group to come before the committee as our first presenters. Mr. Dunn.

MR. DUNN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to second that, that we have the Grey Seal Conservation Society in first.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I appreciate that. So is the committee fine with that?

Taking your thoughts in mind, I will get some input from the members' thinking from the lists submitted by all three caucuses. Where would we like to go next? Mr. Barnet.

MR. BARNET: We would have to share the other two lists with our caucuses - we haven't done that yet - and have some input. I would put forward that on our list there are two issues, No. 3, the Department of Agriculture, Wine Growers of Nova Scotia, and No. 4, Blueberries Nova Scotia, both of which are somewhat, I wouldn't say time-sensitive but we're now at harvest time, particularly for the blueberries. We would be prepared to have those added to the immediate list if there was some requirement for some meetings to be established, and then at the next meeting, when we get advice from our caucus, we would be able to come back with the rest. If the member for Pictou East wants to add that one to his list, we would take that back as well. What did you say it was again?

MR. MACKINNON: It's the North of Smokey-Inverness South Fishermen's Association. That is the association that has been doing most of the harvesting of the 10,000 that had been allocated by Minister Regan.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: I guess it's always good to finish up business from one part of the year to the next, so I went along with the first suggestion of my colleague. This has been, I think, an extraordinarily difficult year for our farm community, from a whole wide range of sectors. Maybe rather than breaking them down, and they're all very legitimate, that the PC caucus has put forward, and in fact at some point in the year maybe we can hear individually from them. The NDP has the Federation of Agriculture, we have Pork Nova Scotia.

So I'm just wondering about bringing in the Federation of Agriculture to address the most pressing concerns that they have currently and the ones that have been ongoing, like the pork and cattle producers. I know this Fall, certainly crop insurance is going to be well tested and probably some help beyond that may be required as well. I think presenting some of their challenges to us would be very good.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess it's time to get some input. I know right now the virus that's affecting the hog industry is very serious. Mr. Barnet, you had suggested the wine growers and Blueberries Nova Scotia. What are your thoughts on Mr. Glavine's comments?

MR. BARNET: We have our next meetings scheduled anyway, so we're good until November. I guess what I was suggesting is that we take one of those two and that gets us our November meeting. In the meantime, we will be able to come back and express our caucus' view with respect to what is on the list, including the suggestion of Mr. Glavine. All I was looking for was to get at least one additional meeting so that we don't ever get to a point where we don't have meetings in advance - not saying that we

wouldn't want to do that, what you suggested, but I would like to get the direction of our caucus before we move forward.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So your thought is that to have the Federation of Agriculture just kind of speak in general terms on the industry is not as timely as one of those . . .

MR. BARNET: I'm not suggesting that at all. I guess what I'm saying is that (Interruptions)

MR. WAYNE GAUDET: I understood it as let's have the Grey Seal Conservation Society in at that meeting. Let's review for possible witnesses for November and December.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I took Mr. Barnet to say he wanted to book November now.

MR. BARNET: It doesn't matter. I was just putting out a suggestion for November in the event that we're tight. Mora knows how to get these things organized.

MS. STEVENS: The further in advance we know, the better, because sometimes a group can't come because of difficulties within a certain month. So if we have just a little leeway, because we have to start the research now for the packages - what's preferable, of course, is if I could book October, November, December, but I'll take what I can get.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a bit of a concern just around the pork industry and the virus that is affecting the pork industry. I think that is serious, and I think it's going to continue for some time unless something is done. I would really like to see that as the November one, if we were going to pick one, but I'm open. Mr. Theriault.

MR. THERIAULT: I believe that at the beginning of last year, maybe the year before, it was suggested that if we get crammed up with a lot of witnesses that want to come in, maybe we should have a meeting every week.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Or every two.

MR. THERIAULT: Whatever. I believe we can do that. Getting back to the Cape Smokey group, they were involved with the Nova Scotia Fish Packers Association, under Denny Morrow of the first meeting. I see the Nova Scotia Fish Packers on the agenda to come in here again, so maybe that could be at the same time as they come in to take care of that.

If we have to get these people in here, there are emergencies, I suggest we . . .

MR. GAUDET: What kind of emergencies?

MR. THERIAULT: Well, whatever. We are talking about pork emergencies, we are talking about seal emergencies, we are talking about blueberry emergencies. If these have to come in here fast, let's work it to make it come in here fast. That's the way I like to work, get it over with.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Belliveau.

MR. STERLING BELLIVEAU: Mr. Chairman, I think that a number of these issues are important and I think I was elected here to deal with whatever I feel is an emergency, so I suggest that we may want to have more than one or two meetings in the next month. I will strongly suggest that the soft-shelled lobster issue needs to be addressed - I don't want to debate about what is the most important.

Also, my colleague sitting here next to me, I think the ferry service in Digby needs to be addressed. Those are all important issues and I don't want to get into a match about what is the top priority, but I do sense that there is an urgency to have more than one meeting in the next 30 or 60 days.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I suggested that, I think, a year or so ago, but actually I don't believe we have the staff to do the prep. Those binders take quite a bit of time so it just seems that one a month is about what we can get.

MR. BELLIVEAU: If I can just conclude. The soft-shelled lobster issue was raised in the House in June and I don't want to get into a debate in the next two months about not making a stand now, but I really seriously think that that issue needs to be addressed and we need to have witnesses come in and put that information forward. I think we need to sit down and prioritize what we are going to do in the next few months here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, well, that's kind of what we're hoping. Mr. Barnet.

MR. BARNET: In order to facilitate our next meetings moving as quickly as we can to set the agenda, maybe it would be helpful as well to have the respective caucuses list, in order of preference, when they want what. When I look down the list, the soft-shelled lobster issue is No. 6 on the list so if you were thinking that it was in some form of preference, it obviously isn't. It would just be helpful for us to be able to get consensus from our caucus on what we move forward with and if that would be provided back to us before our next caucus meeting - well, that's tomorrow, but maybe well in advance of our next committee meeting.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.

MR. BARNET: Then we can set that agenda for November, December and January and get those things that are more urgent or emergent issues, those ones that have some time issues, in front of us sooner rather than later.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure, it makes sense. Okay, is the committee fine with that, that all three caucuses take these lists but the individual caucuses will prioritize what they would like to see and we will forward those to . . .

MR. GAUDET: To add to that, I think we would probably be better off if each caucus is allowed to choose two, because if we arrive here with five choices for each caucus, we are talking about 2007 and on to 2008 here. So I think if we're looking at two choices each, then we can decide what is your first choice and what is your second choice and then we can put a schedule together at our next committee meeting.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think as well, if one of the caucuses sees something that one of the other caucuses has put on their list, they might want to think some compromise before we get in the room.

Mr. Glavine.

MR. GLAVINE: I was just wondering if the committee had ever given any thought to having two witnesses come forward at one meeting in a month. We are doing some of that with the Standing Committee on Community Services this year simply because we have such an extensive list of organizations, groups and issues to come forward.

I'm just wondering, especially when you start breaking down, and I certainly don't take any exception to the lists that the Conservative caucus has put forward because each one of these agricultural sectors certainly merits discussion, but there may be a time when we need to double up, perhaps, a little bit, and have maybe two groups come in the same day. I know this year blueberries had an exceptionally good year, and they're going to be talking about what a great year they had.

MR. CHAIRMAN: For high bush, I think.

MR. GLAVINE: Yes. So maybe some aren't quite as significant to us. I certainly would concur with the chairman that the pork industry is right on the brink, and it's one that needs a little bit of a wide discussion from a committee like this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mora, I think you wanted to say something.

MS. STEVENS: What has happened in the past, a number of committees have had two, sometimes even three different organizations, but it has been on that same topic.

The problem that happens is because it's only a two-hour meeting and say the first half-hour is the presentation, it never feels like the issue is discussed as fully as it could be. So the committee certainly could consider going to two and a half hours, or having a little bit longer meeting on that issue. They could also do, I've seen, back-to-back meetings. I know when the committee was dealing with the fisheries issue, there was the Department of Fisheries here, the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans, a number of lobster fishermen came in, and it was all on the same issue. So they were booked almost closer together than a month because it was the same topic.

It was just getting additional information out to members and getting requested documentation in, to keep it going. If you keep to a topic per se, it really does help in getting more witnesses in, but you certainly could do more than one organization at a time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we'll think about that, number one. I think Mr. Barnet's suggestion is a good one, that in the next couple of days we'll get something off to the other caucuses about our preferences or priorities and bring two back to our October meeting.

MR. MACKINNON: Just as a follow-up to the comments just made, the Fish Packers Association, for example, is just as concerned about the soft-shelled lobster scenario as it is about the seal situation. That organization is giving equal and strong attention to both issues.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess we have something to leave with. I don't have anything else on my list of agenda items, unless the members have something they would like to put forward.

We are adjourned. See you next time.

[The committee adjourned at 1:30 p.m.]