HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

Ms. Diana Whalen (Chairman)

Mr. Leonard Preyra (Vice-Chairman)

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

Ms. Becky Kent

Mr. Mat Whynott

Ms. Lenore Zann

Hon. Keith Colwell

Hon. Cecil Clarke

Mr. Chuck Porter

[Ms. Becky Kent was replaced by Ms. Vicki Conrad.]

[Hon. Keith Colwell was replaced by Mr. Leo Glavine.]

WITNESSES

Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Jacques Lapointe, Auditor General

Ms. Evangeline Colman-Sadd, Assistant Auditor General

Nova Scotia Emergency Management Office

Mr. Craig MacLaughlan, CEO/Deputy Head

Mr. Andy Lathem, Director of Emergency Programs

Mr. Mike Myette, Director of Emergency Services

Ms. Jodi Sibley, Communications

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Ms. Sherri Mitchell

Legislative Comittees Office

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Chief Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 7, 2009

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Diana Whalen

VICE-CHAIRMAN

Mr. Leonard Preyra

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call the meeting of the Public Accounts Committee together and get us started. We have with us today representatives from the EMO who are here to continue our discussion on pandemic planning and following up again on the Auditor General's Report from July of this year. I'm going to begin the meeting by asking all of our members of the committee to introduce themselves, so if we could start with Mr. Porter.

[The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much and I thank all of you for being here today. What we're going to do is get right underway. Our plan for this morning is to have a few opening comments from the Auditor General, from Mr. Lapointe, and then an opportunity for any members of the committee to ask a few questions.

Last week we didn't take our full five minutes so I'll make it a maximum five for any committee member for each caucus. We'll try and get right on to EMO as fast as we can, but there may be clarifications for the Auditor General to begin with. So if we can begin, I'll just ask Mr. Lapointe to say a few opening comments on his report.

1

MR. JACQUES LAPOINTE: Thank you, Madam Chairman. In my opening remarks at the committee's last hearing, on September 30^th, I noted that much had been done to prepare Nova Scotia for a serious pandemic but that more work was needed to improve the province's readiness. I noted that my report contained 33 recommendations and covered a number of areas I considered essential to an effective response. Two areas concerned the EMO particularly - leadership and coordination.

At the time that this report was released, no clear, overall executive leadership was in place to exercise command and control of government pandemic response efforts. I recommended that Executive Council determine where ultimately their ship resides and establish a leadership structure that provides a required command and control structure.

While pandemic planning may be considered primarily a health issue, there are aspects of planning that must be considered in non-health entities. While the Emergency Management Office had engaged some key non-governmental stakeholders in emergency planning, no central agency was responsible for emergency planning, including pandemic planning, and critical entities outside the provincial government.

Adequate emergency plans are necessary to ensure critical services such as power, water, snow clearing, policing and fire response continue during a time when absenteeism may be high. We recommended that the EMO take the lead in ensuring a coordinated response in a non-governmental sector.

Further, few government entities had completed and submitted business continuity plans to the EMO. Such plans detail how these entities will continue to operate in the event of an emergency such as a pandemic. We suggested that all government entities submit these plans as quickly as possible and that the EMO ensure the plans are complete and adequate.

The recommendations in my report were intended to help the province to be ready with a well-coordinated, effective response to a serious and widespread H1N1 pandemic that many health authorities were predicting. Four of those recommendations were directly related to the EMO and the rest had primarily to do with health. I mentioned as well that timely implementation was essential.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Lapointe. I'll just invite Mr. Glavine from the Liberal caucus - do you have any questions?

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Madam Chairman, I do have a couple of questions.

You were very critical in your report, presented in late July, of a lack of an executive leadership group in place and since then government has announced an executive leadership group. In many ways your report was about signalling a tremendous need for leadership and

direction and in many ways your report lead the way - were you consulted about the formation of the membership committee before an announcement was made by government?

MR. LAPOINTE: I wasn't directly consulted in that. I don't really feel that it's my place to be directing specifically what the government does in response to my recommendations. I make the recommendations in order to prompt action, but then it really is up to the department or the government, or whatever agency is dealing with it, to determine themselves what is the appropriate response and that's pretty well how it went this time.

MR. GLAVINE: Maybe that leads me then as to where you'll go with the next question I had, which was - in having seen the membership of the committee, do you see any challenges with the membership of the executive leadership committee?

MR. LAPOINTE: I should clarify - when I say I wasn't consulted, some of the structure was run by me at the time and I was aware of what was being put through, but it's not my job to approve executive decisions. No, I would have no specific concerns with what was done. I would let the EMO speak more particularly to the details, but it struck me that action was in fact being taken to deal with that issue at the time.

MR. GLAVINE: I just have a little comment to lead up to my final question, because you made a comment in relation to the lack of executive leadership in The ChronicleHerald on July 31^st - you stated this could lead to, "delayed decisions and confusion at the height of a crisis".

You will note that the leadership committee is made up of one minister - two if you include the expanded committee - and neither of which is the minister responsible for the Treasury and Policy Board or even the Minister of Finance for that matter. As you are aware, the Treasury and Policy Board has been established to review business plans and recommendations to the Executive Council on the allocation of financial and other resources to those departments. So I'm interested in hearing whether you feel the absence of a minister who would be able to quickly make a financial decision in a very extreme emergency, as opposed to an individual who would in turn have to report back to Executive Council, would not lead potentially to delayed decisions?

MR. LAPOINTE: I have to say that one of my primary concerns at the time was that the Public Health Officer be a part of this committee, so that Health was specifically and directly involved, but as to the precise membership and the effects of it, I think it might be premature for me to attempt to comment on how effective - what the particular membership should be and how effective one membership versus another would be. I don't know if I'm really in a position to judge specifically or to make any comments on how that would work. It might be a little early for that kind of review.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The time allotted for the Liberal caucus has . . .

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Auditor General.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: From the Progressive Conservative caucus, any questions at all?

Yes. Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and just a couple of quick questions for Mr. Lapointe.

You spoke about non-government stakeholders. In your opinion, who were they and were there just not enough as far as government involvement went - you didn't feel that there were adequate stakeholders?

MR. LAPOINTE: The other non-provincial government stakeholders, for instance, would be municipalities or the power authorities - any key non-government organization that delivers a service that it would be critical to be maintained in the province. Now, the province doesn't have a directing and power relationship with them. It's a matter of coordinating that all of the truly essential services are being maintained and that these organizations have some form of planning in place.

MR. PORTER: It would seem to me that in year's past, I've got a little experience along the health care industry but there were ongoing efforts being made with EMO. I know that when I worked in management sort of at EMC, there were committees, there was ongoing dialogue with EMO with preparations. It seemed to be something that worked fairly well and, unfortunately, we've been through a couple of experiences in past years that also had seemed to, at least the public perception was that things seemed to flow fairly well. So I was a little bit surprised by the need to- it's always good to enhance it, I don't want to say, you know, not add to it and not make it better but it seemed like it was something that flowed fairly well. So thank you, I just wanted your comments on that and that would be it for my part of the questions right now.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Preyra.

MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Welcome back, Mr. Lapointe for round two. In round one we talked mostly about health and health promotion issues and here we're talking about emergency management. Essentially, I think if I can summarize your recommendations, you were concerned about command, control, coordination and communication particularly as it related to emergency management. So I have a couple of questions, mostly just following up from the questions of my Liberal colleague.

[9:15 a.m.]

The creation of the executive management team that's going to be coordinating it - I think there's a little bit of confusion over that because in part we're talking about emergency preparedness and we're talking about pandemic preparedness. As your report itself evolved, you kind of got torn in two different directions - you know, it started off as an emergency preparedness report and then went on to pandemic preparedness. You see the same kind of division in the creation of this Emergency Management Committee.

So the emergency preparedness team may not have a Health and Health Promotion and Protection component to it but certainly the pandemic team does and if I can just quote from the government release that was issued on this very question on August 13^th. It says, "The executive emergency management committee will be chaired by the Minister of Emergency Management and members include the deputy minister to the premier, the deputy ministers of the Treasury Board and Justice, and the chief executive officer and deputy head of the Emergency Management Office."

That's for emergency preparedness but, "In light of the H1N1 (human swine pandemic) the membership will be expanded to include the Minister of Health, the deputy ministers of Health Promotion and Protection and Health and the chief medical officer of health."

So this Emergency Management Committee will expand and contract as the emergency presents itself and I think that's where there's a little bit of confusion over that, but I just wanted to clarify that. I also wanted to say something about the question about ongoing follow-up on the Auditor General's report. I get the sense from what you're saying is that you issue your recommendations, your reports and your findings - and you expect the government to follow up or at least to respond to them - but you don't see your role as having, you know, monitoring and oversight of the government itself once that report is issued. Is that reasonable?

MR. LAPOINTE: I think that's a reasonable way to put it. The recommendations that we make are intended to help to point the way to some solutions to the problems that we find or to improvements that could be made in what we find in the management of the programs. We don't want to inappropriately cross the line to closely direct what precisely is done. The decisions that have to be made are the decisions of executive and that's not our role. We can only recommend and the executive of government can agree or disagree, or can do things slightly differently and have its own way of doing things after it looks at priority.

What we do is to follow up in a normal way of things two years later to see what action has been taken and at that point I expect that, well, action is going to be taken it's a sufficient amount of time to deal with the recommendations or not. In this particular case - and I report on what I find at that time - in this particular case, much of the action that we are

pointing to is on a much shorter time frame. So as I understand it, not a lot has been done since the issuance of the report. That was our point, to issue early so that we could be prepared before the pandemic arrives. But I wouldn't normally - in this kind of time frame - keep track specifically on what is being done in the time since July when I issued it until now.

MR. PREYRA: In fact, you got a response from the Emergency Management Office almost immediately as the report was being written and I'm looking forward to hearing what the EMO has to say, by way of follow-up to the recommendations. I'm sure there is a lot of progress to report. I expect there will be and I am looking forward to that report. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: That will conclude our discussion specifically with the Auditor General, although he will be here throughout the meeting, if there are any other questions, we can ask him to come back. We're a little constrained today because we're not in the Assembly, as we usually are. So we're just going to change places at the head of the table and I will invite the CEO of the Emergency Management Office, Mr. Craig MacLaughlan to provide his opening statements and as I mentioned to you - if you could keep them to about 10 minutes, that would be great because we're a little constrained for time. Thank you.

MR. CRAIG MACLAUGHLAN: Good morning, Madam Chairman, committee members, colleagues and staff. The Emergency Management Office has been invited before this committee this morning to discuss the Auditor General's Report on pandemic. I have brought with me three staff members: Andrew Lathem, to my right, is the Director of Emergency Programs; and Mike Myette, to my right, is the Director of Emergency Services; and Jodi Sibley behind me is the Acting Director of Communications. I may ask my colleagues to expand in certain areas as they have expertise in the control areas that they are responsible for.

I would like to begin by saying that the Emergency Management Office recognizes and appreciates the important work of the Auditor General. We believe that to achieve excellence, we must constantly review our actions and adapt. There is always something that can be learned and we welcome the recommendations of the Auditor General as we continue to strengthen emergency management in Nova Scotia. The Emergency Management Office is mandated to ensure the safety and security of Nova Scotians and their property by providing for a prompt and coordinated response in an emergency and all employees at EMO Nova Scotia take this job seriously.

We manage complex systems and multidisciplinary personnel to address extreme events across all hazards - the all-hazards approach, which EMO rigorously follows ensures that our province is prepared for any and all types of emergencies. It also means that our operational procedures apply to many kinds of emergencies including those in the public health sector, such as pandemic.

The work we have done for many years to prepare this province for any crisis directly applies to the potential emergency we're here to discuss today. At EMO, we have worked to modernize emergency management to better protect all Nova Scotians. We work with Public Safety Canada, and the Halifax Regional Municipality established the nation's first joint emergency operations centre. Now, representatives from all partners come together during an emergency to manage resources and responses.

We have developed a memorandum of understanding with an international emergency group, made up with Quebec, the Atlantic Provinces and several of the Eastern Seaboard states. When Nova Scotia needs help from other jurisdictions, it is available.

Through the FPT Emergency Management Deputies Committee, of which I'm a member, Nova Scotia contributes to a national leadership in coordination in emergency management. Nova Scotia is at the table when decisions about how emergencies in Canada will be handled are made.

When it comes to emergency management, there is no finish line. It is a process, not a project, it is ongoing and continuous. The EMO and our partners are constantly evaluating and adapting, working to ensure that Nova Scotians receive the effective emergency response that they deserve.

The basic principles of good emergency management are built on the idea of constant development. The EMO lives by this process. During major events and day-to-day operations we follow best practices and operate in four distinct phases: mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery. In mitigation we manage hazards to prevent them from developing into emergencies; in the preparedness phase, action plans are developed when a disaster does strike; during response, emergency services and first responders are mobilized and coordinated; in recovery we work to restore the affected area to its previous state as soon as possible.

In his special report the Auditor General documented four recommendations directed at the provincial Emergency Management Office. The first dealt with leadership and accountability structure during a pandemic. I would like to assure this committee that executive leadership was in place prior to the Auditor General's Report. In times of emergencies, the Minister of Emergency Management has always been in command and control of the coordination of all responses to all-hazard events.

EMO operates under the unified Incident Command System, better known as ICS. This system guides the proper management of resources during an emergency. It is internationally recognized and widely adopted, and has been tested and improved upon for over 30 years. It's flexible, it's scalable, allowing Nova Scotians to cope with incidents of varying complexity. It provides a common framework and language through which many organizations can work together, and it is cost-effective.

The Incident Command structure is known for the level of accountability it provides, as well as its clear chain of command and control. In fact, this system was developed to fill the needs during an emergency response. At the top of this structure is an executive group responsible for oversight during emergencies. In response to the Auditor General's first recommendation, the Minister of Emergency Management clarified that the executive emergency management committee exists at the top of Nova Scotia's Incident Command System.

The minister formally named the members, including the Chief Medical Officer of Health as a subject matter expert who is on this committee during a pandemic response. This committee regularly meets on pandemic and other provincial emergency management matters. As amendments to the Emergency Management Act are introduced this session, this committee, its members, and mandate will be officially documented in legislation.

Changes to the Act will also clarify that the Emergency Management Act takes precedence over other declarations of emergencies. This change will strengthen the emergency leadership structure under which the province currently practices.

Mr. Lapointe's next recommendation dealt with the coordination of overall emergency planning between government and non-government entities. Under the Emergency Management Act, EMO has the authority to coordinate overall provincial responses to emergencies including ongoing planning, training, and exercises. EMO can require any person or group, including non-government agencies, to submit an emergency plan. For a number of years, the Emergency Management Office has worked with government departments and agencies, municipalities, and non-government essential service providers to coordinate and support the development of business continuity and all hazard plans.

Amendments to this Act this session will strengthen this authority. It will allow for regulations making power over emergency planning, evaluation, and reporting for all non-government agencies.

The next recommendation suggests that EMO review non-government emergency plans. EMO has carefully considered this recommendation. We believe that non-government essential service providers have the business area expertise that is essential in determining how to continue operations during a pandemic or other hazard. Essential service providers in this province are best aware of their own operational needs and requirements, realizing the importance of their services during times of emergency. In many cases, they have developed extensive business continuity plans. EMO has developed strong relationships with these groups. We work with them on a continual basis providing ongoing expertise, advice, support, training, and exercising in the areas of emergency management and business continuity planning.

We train and exercise within the joint emergency operations centre to ensure we're all working together toward the common goal of keeping Nova Scotians as safe as possible. We believe our efforts are best focused on supporting these organizations in their planning, providing expertise on emergency management and business continuity while they provide the expertise on their business operations. Building on this work, EMO has responded to the Auditor General's recommendation by formalizing an already-existing forum to continuously engage non-government entities and business continuity and all hazard planning.

In addition, we have surveyed essential service providers about their needs and are making plans for further support, supporting their planning vis-a-vis training and exercise. We have also developed a business continuity self-assessment tool and are working with Labour and Workforce Development as they distribute pandemic information and this assessment tool to Nova Scotia businesses.

Finally, the Auditor General recommended that all government departments complete and submit their business continuity plans to EMO for review. We have worked with government agencies and departments on business continuity planning for some time. We encourage not just the creation of plans, but of full programs. Programs imply continuous activity.

Creating these programs is an ongoing and never-ending process. They are complex and tackle difficult issues. The risks they address are ever-changing, and the organizations in which they must function are large and multi-faceted. Business continuity programs and institutions of this size and complexity take time to create. With the advent of pandemic influenza, these plans must once again be revisited.

In response to the Auditor General's recommendation, additional focus has been put on the work that has already been taking place. Departments and agencies across government are in the process of developing or finalizing plans. EMO has established a monthly reporting process to update government on the status of these plans and programs. An assessment tool to evaluate these plans is being developed. The review process has been given a priority and this work will take place quickly over the next few weeks.

Departments have internally identified critical programs that must continue during a pandemic. Based on that work, EMO is conducting a corporate impact assessment for the provincial government. It will identify urgently required programs and services that must be maintained during a pandemic. This will assist the executive emergency management committee in their planning.

I thank you again for the opportunity to outline some of the steps that EMO has taken to address the Auditor General's recommendation and I invite your questions. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. MacLaughlan. That was within 10 minutes, so well done.

We'll begin our questioning with the Liberal caucus and I will ask Mr. Glavine to begin, and that's 20 minutes. We'll do our usual 20-minute round for each caucus.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. I think perhaps in some ways you've definitely addressed what was my first question; that is on the business continuity plans. I'll start with government departments - has your office received business continuity plans from all government departments and agencies, again which I think should be providing leadership?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: My office has received the majority of those plans. We are now just setting up a strategy to evaluate those plans and come up with an assessment for government, looking at critical infrastructure.

MR. GLAVINE: Are there any missing that would be of more concern to you at this stage?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The ones that we have received to date, we believe, are those that would be critical in most of the emergency events that we respond to and we are working with those who have not submitted, to ensure that they get it in a timely fashion.

MR. GLAVINE: So is there a process established within the Emergency Management Office to approve these business continuity plans or will the Emergency Management Office serve as a repository of these plans. I think you've addressed some of that but if you could just clarify the logistics and working nature of reviewing those plans.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: It's my office's responsibility to ensure that there are plans, not to approve the plans. It would be impossible for us to have the expertise to say whether the Department of Health or the Department of Environment - that their plans, in fact, were going to work for the departments. It is the departments' responsibility. Our job is to ensure that we develop a template that was nationally recognized and that the departments followed that template. We'll make sure that certain boxes are ticked off so that if they had to activate the plan, hopefully things would go the way we hoped on a national picture.

Our main thing was to look at these plans to look for critical issues within the departments that we may be able to advise government that during all hazard events we can look at those things first when we're doing our planning during the event.

MR. GLAVINE: Just as a follow-up there - as you assess the plans currently, is there a major emphasis being put on the potential pandemic of H1N1? Are you really zeroing in there or are you still more concerned about the global planning that does need to be done for ongoing situations?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I think the thing that my office has to be very conscious of is not to become narrowly focused on one event. We've already seen this summer where we had multiple forest fires, we had two or three events ongoing at once. That's why we talk about all-hazard planning versus pandemic. Pandemic is just another issue that this province could be faced with that we have to be prepared for.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you. Just as a wrap-up in this area, has the Department of Health provided you with their business continuity plan?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Yes.

MR. GLAVINE: Okay, thank you very much for that.

In reviewing the lessons learned from SARS, a number of hospital identified insufficient number of specialized staff as a challenge in dealing with the outbreak. The most commonly cited deficiencies were infectious disease specialists, infection control physicians and hospital epidemiologists. Has the department expressed any concern with regard to a lack of infection control physicians and specialists? If so, has a plan been developed to address these challenges?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: It has not been identified to my office.

MR. GLAVINE: Okay. What about nurses, any concern in that particular area?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The committee has to remember that my office's responsibility is to coordinate a response. If the Department of Health needed something from my office in reference to, say, nurses from another province or from another country that would have a specific nature, then they would come to us with a tasking and a tasking would be issued out. We would then assist the department in getting what they needed.

In most cases they have those plans already in place to obtain those.

MR. GLAVINE: I note last week that the government now is not going to use pharmacists when it comes to administering vaccinations. However, should a wave of flu hit in, say, hospitals before we have had the chance to conduct a mass vaccination, we will have a situation where a relatively scant workforce will not be available to assist in mass vaccinations and the retired nurses, who were mentioned last week, may be required to work in hospitals.

I know this may not be a direct responsibility, however, it is your responsibility to ensure that hospitals are able to continue to function as hospitals. So my question then, has the Department of Health indicated how they would continue to operate should the above scenario unfold? I think real planning does take into account worst-case scenarios.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: It is not my office's responsibility to ensure that the hospitals are working - that would be the Department of Health. My responsibility would be to assist the Department of Health if they needed anything outside of their realm to help them address whatever the issue was.

MR. GLAVINE: Would your office rank government departments and agencies in order of importance when it comes to these business continuity plans or are all departments and agencies considered somewhat equal?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Well they would be considered somewhat equal because we don't know what the event could be and you may have multi-faceted events ongoing at one present time. As the discussion leads today, the Department of Health and Health Protection is very important to addressing the issue of pandemic.

MR. GLAVINE: The AG also recommended that the Emergency Management Office should review the business continuity plans of government departments to ensure they're adequate to deal with a pandemic. Have any government departments raised any red flags in your mind and if so, which ones?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, there has been nothing raised that I can think of at this point in time.

MR. GLAVINE: In your review, if there are gaps, is it your responsibility to personally bring forward recommendations or is it the executive leadership's responsibility?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The executive leadership, which I've commented on, was in place before the Auditor General's Report. The executive leadership at that time was made up of the minister and, in this case, would have been myself. The Auditor General was looking at a broader government leadership, executive leadership, and this why we worked with that recommendation and established the group that you see that's been listed with the minister.

That group, during times of emergencies and non-times of emergencies will always be working with my office to ensure that we are working toward preparing Nova Scotians for emergencies and emergency events. I guess, as Jacques had already said, it's kind of early at this stage now to see how this is all going to unfold and we really haven't gone through an event as of yet.

MR. GLAVINE: Looking at recommendation five, page two of the chart, which is a review of all non-government entity emergency plans to ensure they adequately deal with a pandemic. Now as you may recall, post Hurricane Juan, analyzed the performance of Nova Scotia Power and came up with 49 recommendations as to how the company can improve its response to disasters - an interruption in service at the same time, a depleted workforce could easily happen during a pandemic. Can you inform us as to whether you have reviewed the emergency plans of Nova Scotia Power?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I have not reviewed the emergency plans of Nova Scotia Power, however, I will say that Nova Scotia Power is a strong partner with the emergency management office. They sit on several committees within our organization. We have exercised with them on numerous occasions in the last four and a half years and they have exercised their emergency plans, business continuity planning and also, we have been there as evaluators as recently as two months ago, assisting them with an exercise to ensure that they would continue with services during whatever the event might be, again, all hazards.

MR. GLAVINE: Was it your responsibility to look at whether these recommendations have been implemented since Hurricane Juan or are you responding, perhaps in a more general sense because of your liaison with Nova Scotia Power?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I don't think it's my responsibility to look at the recommendations for Nova Scotia Power. I think my responsibility is to ensure that Nova Scotia Power works with us to ensure that they can continue with their service provisions as best possible during whatever event that might unfold here in Nova Scotia. I believe that in the exercises that I've been involved in over the last four and a half years, that they've had considerable improvement and worked very hard to ensure that what they're required to do, along with other service providers during our coordinated response, that they do it - and I've seen, in my opinion, they have done very well.

MR. GLAVINE: I know one of the issues that I can recall around Hurricane Juan was an inadequate number of standby workers who eventually arrived from other provinces. Would you be able to comment as to whether Nova Scotia Power indicated how they plan to deal with this issue, given the likelihood that we could find our province in the midst of a pandemic at the same time as our neighbours and potentially looking at what has happened in other countries and the continent of Australia. I'm wondering how you would size up Nova Scotia Power at this time?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I will say that I am aware that they have exercised and have planned for - I guess the norm out of the Department of Health is a reduction of 30 per cent of the workforce for all this. This is what has been passed around. I know that they've exercised it and whether it works for them or whether it has worked for them, I'm not aware of that. I think you would have to ask them that question.

MR. GLAVINE: Having been a former firefighter, when you say you work with Nova Scotia Power, do you do mock-ups and exercises to see how they would respond to given emergencies?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: We're fortunate enough here in Nova Scotia that we have enough real-time weather events especially, along with our exercises, that they're involved with this on a regular basis. I feel confident that they have responded in a timely fashion and have accepted their service provision as best possible.

MR. GLAVINE: Another area of course that's of daily concern in HRM would be Metro Transit and I'm just wondering if they have submitted any emergency plans at this point in time?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The Halifax Regional Municipality has their own emergency municipal coordinator and we work hand in hand with him. As I said in my opening remarks, we are the only province in Canada that has three levels of government and a joint emergency operation centre. I've been there during live exercises and I've been there during live real times and I can tell you that I'm very proud that we've been able to establish this. There's a lot of envious provinces that would like to be able to have the response capabilities that we have.

MR. GLAVINE: So in terms of Metro Transit, they fit under this municipal coordinator - is that what you're inferring here?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: And it all would account if what you're asking is, could we work with or do we have plans with the municipality that if we needed extra resources such as buses to go elsewhere outside of HRM? The answer is yes - we have those plans and we have those people in place.

MR. GLAVINE: I'm assuming this has been incorporated in business continuity plans so I must ask, have businesses and government included in their plans any recommendations as to how to deal with potential delays in the transit system and how this will impact the workers to actually report to work and especially other emergency workers, as we know Health in particular?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Well, without reading the specific plans, I couldn't answer that question here today.

MR. GLAVINE: As we recall, one of the uglier sides of Hurricane Juan was the one or two instances where stores began to price gouge on items of great demand. From the outset, I must state for the record that I do not believe that for one second this will happen. Businesses in Nova Scotia are honest and are the best in the country, bar none. However, I would be remiss if I did not ask whether acknowledging and addressing this issue with the

appropriate stakeholders before we find ourselves in the middle of a crisis. Would that be the responsibility of your office, or is it the responsibility of government, or is it anyone's responsibility?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The Emergency Management Act clearly identifies that that's not allowed and I would presume that if that information was to surface, the task would be assigned to the police in the jurisdiction to investigate.

MR. GLAVINE: The other question was, is your organization broken down in a regional manner to respond or is it out of the one coordinating centre that you're going to administer any type of emergency?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The Emergency Management Office that I'm responsible for has a headquarters in Dartmouth. We have a regional office in Lunenburg, a regional office in Kentville, a regional office in Truro and a regional office in Sydney. We then work with the municipalities for the most part, have emergency operation centres that we would work with them. Remember that most emergencies start at the municipal level and they work their way up. So we're well positioned within the province.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you. My colleague will ask some questions in the second round.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I don't think your time is quite finished yet, though.

[9:43 a.m. Mr. Leonard Preyra assumed the Chair.]

MS. DIANA WHALEN: I did have a couple of questions. You were saying - if I could, Mr. MacLaughlan - that you've received these plans from non-government entities, but you're not saying whether they're satisfactory. You didn't approve them, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, we never received any plans from non-government.

MS. WHALEN: You don't have them.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No.

MS. WHALEN: The Auditor General's Report suggested that you should have them and review them. That was one of the clear recommendations, so could you perhaps address that and what your plan is to get them?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Well, in my opening remarks I also stated that we felt that the expertise for non-government agencies rests with those who are responsible. Do we work

with non-government critical infrastructure agencies on exercise with them and plan with them? The answer is yes. I guess my issue with - let's take Nova Scotia Power, for instance. Where would my office get the expertise to ensure a corporation as big as Nova Scotia Power and all the responsibilities that they have and the expertise that would be required, I would need - I'm probably not really sure what I'd need, but I know I need a whole bunch of engineers behind me on my staff to be able to review it, so it just doesn't make sense.

What does make sense is to ensure that they're involved in our emergency management planning, that they sit at our tables at the operational level with my directors, at the executive level with me, and they do that. They have been doing that. I've been in this chair for five years and it was going on before that time. We have enhanced it. The Auditor General is correct that we were remiss and we should have documented it a little bit better, and we've taken his recommendation. We've done that, we will now establish it in legislation, and we will continue to move forward.

[9:45 a.m.]

MS. WHALEN: I appreciate what you're saying, but I think, in essence, you're saying that the Auditor General was wrong in suggesting that you should review it for adequacy. Is that what I'm hearing?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, I think that . . .

MS. WHALEN: Because you're not doing it.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, I think what the Auditor General said is he wanted to ensure that there was a process in place, and one of them could be to review their plans. What I've said is that we've established templates for emergency planning, including business continuity planning - that we share these. Anybody in Nova Scotia, anybody in the world can go on our website and see how to develop a business continuity plan, and we work with those agencies to say, look, here's our guidelines. Perhaps their business lines don't quite fit our government template.

However, through our exercising and working with these people and through proven - not only exercising, but we have an event on a regular basis in this province that they're sitting beside us. We haven't had any issues - not issues that we couldn't manage. But to have the expertise to say whether Nova Scotia Power - or Aliant or a large company - that their plan would work effectively for their organization would be very difficult for my office to do.

MS. WHALEN: I think there would be a level of comfort, though, if we knew that they had at least presented their plans or assured you that everybody - and I'm not just speaking about Nova Scotia Power, but other essential services - if you knew that the plan

was in place. I think the Auditor General simply said, review it for adequacy. That would just mean, have they covered off all the boxes, can you tick off all the must-dos, have they identified priorities?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I think Nova Scotians can take solace in that we work with them on a regular basis, that we exercise with them on a regular basis, and as recently as two storms ago, they were sitting in our command centre 24/7 when it's open. Obviously they have to exercise their plan in order to commit to the service that they have to provide. We will continue to work with them - I've been assured that if I want to look at Nova Scotia Power's plan, I could. When I have my management meetings with my executive, what we discuss is, well, if I look at the plan, yes, we can say that they meet a few boxes, but do we really know that their plan would work for them? They know whether it's going to work or not. They are the ones who have the accountability for it.

MS. WHALEN: I hear you, and Nova Scotia Power is an exception in that they've certainly had many recommendations after Hurricane Juan and they are certainly doing better in terms of power, I believe, but what we're looking at here is different than most of the hazards. I notice that throughout your opening remarks you talked about all-hazard. All-hazard came up time and again, and that is your world, I know that. There's so many others, but we really are looking today at pandemic and at the possibility of up to 30 per cent or maybe even more of our people being unable to go to work or perhaps being home because their family members are sick and so many other extenuating circumstances.

In the few minutes I have left, I'd like to know if you have . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have 30 seconds left.

MS. WHALEN: Thirty seconds to 48; okay, a different clock.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's yours. (Laughter)

MS. WHALEN: I'd like to know if you've got a list of the agencies beyond Nova Scotia Power that you're looking at, that you want to make sure are ready for a pandemic.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Yes, we certainly have a list. We certainly had meetings as recently as last week, again there's another one planned for the 13^th of this month with different non-government agencies that we deal with in a pandemic response . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen's time is up, thank you.

MS. WHALEN: I'd just like to ask the Chair, if I could, for that list to be provided to the committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: When you sit here, you could ask through the Chair.

[9:49 a.m. Ms. Diana Whalen resumed the Chair.]

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I appreciate that the time has gone and we will now turn the questioning over to the Progressive Conservative caucus. Mr. Porter to begin.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you, Craig, and your folks for being here. I've probably got a bias, given my work experience, but I want to relate to that somewhat.

I think there's a misconception, a little bit of misunderstanding perhaps. It is somewhat disheartening to read that there has been no leadership in this area because I truly believe that there has been a considerable amount of leadership. I think maybe there's a misconception about what your responsibility at EMO is - it is a coordinating thing. It's not making sure that the fire service is doing their thing, it's not making sure that power is doing their thing or the phones, et cetera, the hospitals.

I think that Nova Scotians in general - and we've been through a number of events. As you've stated already, we have regular occurring events in this province that keep us on our toes and we learn considerable lessons from and continue to develop a plan. I think you also noted in your opening comments this morning that this is very much ongoing, it's a living document. It never ends because there's always something new, it seems, coming down the pipe in this business of EMS.

I think there's a bit of a misconception there of what is expected but the people in Nova Scotia I think are fairly comfortable with what they see when events do happen. I know in my area, just as an example, we are very fortunate to have a centre in Hantsport - I'm sure you've been there - that is phenomenal. It's state of the art, as far as I'm concerned, with its technology and resources. The people who come together, there are many, many organizations. I know the question has been raised about organizations, how many there are. Just for the record, how many did you say there were that you interact with, or do you have an actual final list?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I can provide that list to the committee, it's extensive.

MR. PORTER: It would be fairly extensive I would think, yes. Things have always seemed to go fairly well. I know that Hurricane Juan was an exceptional event and we've heard it talked about a bit this morning.

I want to go first to a money question, I guess. How do you budget for what you do? How much money is - what's the line item for this department? How often do you see that changing?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Is the question how much do we budget for events?

MR. PORTER: Can you budget for events? I guess that's where I'm going. Can you put a price tag on it?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No. The budget that I have supplied to me by government is there to run the business day-to-day, to provide training, to enhance our response capabilities and when an event takes place then we look to the government for whatever might be required. At the same time, let's not forget that we also look to the federal government on a disaster financial assistance arrangement for cost-sharing, much like what we've done in the past.

MR. PORTER: And that has to be over a certain figure of damage, is that how it goes?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Well it does; it's basically $1 million. Once it hits the $1 million mark, after that we can look at applying to the federal government for assistance but the first $1 million is ours.

MR. PORTER: What do you see as some of the bigger challenges now, with the recommendations that have come forward, the executive committee? When I look at the executive committee, I don't see those folks as experienced hands on the ground, running the operation. I see them as the go-to people for funding requests or maybe laws that need to be enacted. Where do you see this whole thing with these recommendations that have come forward?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: You're exactly right. If you look at the documents that I gave you, there is a chart in there that shows the command structure model. I don't think for a minute that anybody wants to make those operational decisions, except for those who have the expertise.

I think the committee looks to me for recommendations as to which way the event is going to flow and obviously I get briefed by staff who are managing the event and that crosses all government lines and crosses non-governments that are involved in the event. I think you're correct in that I would go to the executive committee when we're looking for funding, looking for an executive Cabinet decision if there was something that had to be done that could affect something much more than just the event that we're faced with.

MR. PORTER: Thank you very much for that. So I mean these are, you know, fairly extensive positions held in high regard. What kind of experience are we looking for the JEOC - the commander you have there, just as an example, in your incident command structure? This wouldn't be just anybody, this would be somebody who has been in business I would think for a number of years. Is this a volunteer position or is this a paid position as we go around the province and we look at these different centres and when you go into operation and there's an event coming and you're preparing for it?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Well, if you're going around - if you're talking just at the municipal level, we train. One of the courses that we do train is a joint emergency operation - sorry, the EOC, emergency operation centre course. If you're talking about my centre, the provincial centre, I have directors who are involved in the command and control structure. They all have over 30 years experience. They're all extremely well qualified in emergency management and I think if you look at the events that we've been involved in from Hurricane Juan to the recent floods a few weeks ago, we've done, I think, a very good job and that there haven't been really any fallouts as a result of the way that the events have been handled.

The command and control structure has always been in place. I think the Auditor General would agree with me that it needed to better formalized. It has been and I think that we just continued to move forward with a program called the incident command structure that we know works and has been proven over the last 30 years.

MR. PORTER: Yes, the incident command structure has been in place as we know for, as you said, a long time. Fire departments I know have used it for many, many years and it seems to work very well. I know EMS has used it numerous times in mass casualty incidents and things like that. Things seem to flow very well, again. So it's kind of disheartening in a way, again that bias that I have, I think coming from that world, I would just say that it seems to have worked and worked well and it's something that we spend a lot of time on. I think EMO in general, fire departments do, and all of those agencies seem to spend a lot of time on being prepared for any kind of a disaster.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I think what the Auditor General was trying to say is that I think he felt that there was leadership at the operational level and the things that we were doing operationally it was there but at the executive government level it would be better off to ensure that we have a team at the executive level that can best address Cabinet and best assist the operational people with moving forward. So that's why that executive committee was established and we're moving forward.

MR. PORTER: I think that's important. I think you need to have that step as well because in times of need you need someone there who can move those things along and get done for you what needs to be done. How many regular training events would any centre, regionally or the local operation, any idea annually how many training events you would do?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I would think that there would be anywhere from 15 to 20 different courses per year but on top of that, there would be multiple exercises from the province and there would be multiple exercises on behalf of the municipalities that we may or may not be involved in. Then there would be exercising done on behalf of different departments that are going to be doing it. We don't necessarily go to it, we just can't, we wouldn't have the capacity to go to every one but this province does very well in exercising.

MR. PORTER: How big an event does there have to be for the provincial centre, or a local centre for that matter - and I'll just use Hantsport again because I'm familiar with it - how big an event before that would be open and put into place and ready for whatever may be coming?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Are you talking about opening Hantsport or opening the provincial centre, or both?

MR. PORTER: Well, both. Let's start with the more localized and we'll use Hantsport and then you can expand to that because it does go, as you said, from the municipal generally up to your provincial level. So how big an event would we be looking at - a localized weather event?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Let's start off by saying that we've very proud of the Town of Hantsport.

MR. PORTER: Thank you.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: We worked very hard with them to establish probably one of the better municipal emergency operation centres, they have worked very hard for a small community, and my office is very closely tied in with them.

Well, let's say you had an event that got to a point where the local first responders could no longer handle what the event was, so it was a fire, it gets out of control. They have to open the emergency operation centre at the municipal level to help coordinate different municipalities to come in to fight the fire and/or other resources that they need. The fire continues to grow and all of a sudden the whole town is on fire, perhaps half the county. Well then, no longer can the municipality or the county handle it, they would then turn to us as the emergency operations for the province and we would then put our processes into play.

Your earlier comments were correct in that we are not first responders. My office does respond, but we are not first responders. Our job is to coordinate those extraordinary events that hit this province, such as Hurricane Juan, to help those first responders, those who are responsible for getting the processes back to normal as soon as possible. That's what our job is.

MR. PORTER: Thank you. I want to move on a little bit on the communications side of things. We'll use Hurricane Juan just because it's been mentioned. I know we've had numerous other events and every Fall, as hurricane season approaches, there seems to be this notice that goes out through CNS, et cetera, reminding Nova Scotians to be prepared with their batteries, water and food et cetera.

During Hurricane Juan, it comes to mind. I remember watching that night, I was working before the power went out, people were out wandering about, they were on the waterfront, they were all over the place, even media were on the waterfront. Is there anything that's in place that's going to say, you people need to go home, stay home, be safe? Is there an enforcement issue that's there through your department, or would you see that then having to go up to that executive group and try to implement something else?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: My office has no responsibility for enforcement whatsoever. We can't stop people from doing silly things. If they decide they want to go around police barriers and they want to go and skip the waves, we can't stop them from doing it - I'm talking about EMO. Are there issues the police can look at or enforcement agencies such as DNR? I have organized a meeting that's being held here shortly to look at perhaps taking stronger action at some of these places.

[10:00 a.m.]

It's not only the storm events with the waves, but people also going around barriers for forest fires and going into areas like Porters Lake when we had that fire a few years ago, that type of thing. So we're going to look with this group and see if there are other things. Maybe stronger action needs to be taken.

MR. PORTER: The reason I bring that up is - as your department does coordinate this, sometimes a massive gathering of agencies, both government and non-government - has there been that discussion, is what I was wondering? Do you have the ability to step in and say to the sergeant or whomever, I need you to step in there, there's an issue, we've got reports back, there are people crossing lines going into fire scenes or out playing in the waves, whatever the situation might be? What role, if any, did you play in that or can you play?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The role we're going to play is that we've called a meeting, I've called it on behalf of the minister. We don't have an enforcement role, they are partners in our overall response and because of that, I think it's important for us to coordinate that meeting and see if there's anything else that can be done.

It's not the person who's going to slip into the water - it's the firefighter or bystander who jumps in and attempts to save the person who may lose their life. We really have to take

some proactive and mitigation steps and this meeting hopefully will come up with some resolve.

MR. PORTER: That's good to hear. You just touched on my final part of that which was, somebody goes out and they're putting their life in jeopardy. That means others are going out to put their lives in jeopardy, ultimately, to try and recover or bring that person back.

Just on the communications piece, one more thing, the question I have is, how many people - maybe there's no way of telling, I mean, it's all good, you put the communications piece out - how many people do you think are paying attention in Nova Scotia? We've had a number of events. Do you think this is something that people are really, honestly paying attention to or are they saying, thanks very much, carry on? How many people in Nova Scotia are prepared?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I think they are a lot more prepared today than they were back pre-Hurricane Juan. You watch today when we put messages out, we did have a rather large hurricane that just missed us this year. A couple of days before this event you saw the shelves of water starting to clear off, you see the batteries starting to clear off, you see line ups at gas stations, especially that hour or days before.

I think people are heeding us. My office has established a full-time director of communications working with CNS, with other departments. We're trying to get that message out more and more. My biggest fear is, you know, you cry wolf. Somebody says, that hurricane you said was going to come up the middle missed us and we were fine. Well, it might only have missed us by 80 kilometres, that was the last one which could have been devastating. My understanding is it would have been a lot worse than Hurricane Juan.

So it's a dicey game that you play but I think it's better that we continue to go out there, I think Nova Scotians do listen. I do think we do have enough events here, especially weather- related events, that they pay particular attention and I think that our messaging is getting more and more out there, along with our training sessions.

MR. PORTER: Just on that, the cry wolf part is an interesting point that you raised. The second Sunday event was more severe than the initial potential and luckily those things missed us and that is great.

It also sounds like you have some sort of monitoring process in place or is that just something that you measured yourself by way of the examples you gave with gas, water and so on or do you actually have something formalized to measure how ready people are getting?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, one of the things that we are looking at is trying to come up with a strategy to see how people are reacting after we go out with our warnings, but to date, no, it's just personal. I've personally have looked at how things are goings and staff and people who talk to us. We certainly get a lot of hits on our website, you'll see it just before events, looking to see what they should be doing and that type of thing. But we are now looking more to what else can we do to help education Nova Scotians in preparedness.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, that was my next question. Are there changes about or is there a new plan or is there more social media - sometimes the young are busy or whatever, there are all kinds of way to communicate today. I guess I was just wondering if there are any future plans to change how you're doing business now by way of trying to make people aware of coming events or potentially what's coming?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Yes, we're certainly looking at all different social media tools that we can use. We just updated our website in the last 30 days. It was a six-month project that certainly has enhanced the sites so that those Nova Scotians who need to learn more about emergency management from the DFAA program - the Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangements program - to how to prepare a home kit, to how to contact us. This is a lot more useful tool and again we're looking at other things. There are so many other tools out there.

We're also looking at ways of public alerting , which is near and dear to my heart, on how do we get out to different media and we're looking at the national and provincial levels. Mike Myette is the director responsible for that. He just got back from Toronto working on how are we going to put in a program, how do we tell the people of just Canso to get out of town because there is a tsunami coming? How do you get mass media out over your Blackberries and pagers and telephones and reversed 911? There is a huge project that we're looking at for that mass- media notification communication.

MR. PORTER: Thank you. I just want to go back to where I started and I think it was with a budget question. I'm not sure, did you give me an overall figure of what your annual budget, what your line item is for your department?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: The Emergency Management side of the department is $2.5 million and the 911 side is around $3.5 million.

MR. PORTER: In your opinion, Craig, is that adequate?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I guess so. I could always say it's never adequate and get myself in trouble but what I will say . . .

MR. PORTER: For what you're trying to manage, in all honesty, and I know that's always the typical answer, but . . .

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I will say that there are always challenges, that we continue to work with the government to ensure that we have the resources necessary to move forward. I feel confident that at this present time that we have the funding adequate to do what it is that we need to get done.

MR. PORTER: Thank you very much and I commend all of you for the work that you continue to do work and look forward to seeing you again in the future. That's for me, Madam Chairman, at this point.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Any other questions, you have about two minutes. (Interruption) That's very good, because we did start late. I'll turn the questioning over to Mr. Preyra and the NDP caucus.

MR. PREYRA: Thank you Madam Chairman and Mr. MacLaughlan, I really just have two questions for clarification. One of them relates to enforcement and I may have misunderstood your answer but I think what you were intending to say is that the Emergency Management Office has no enforcement capacity itself, but the partners at the table have the capacity to enforce it. For example, the Chief Medical Officer, the Minister of Justice - they have the capacity to declare emergencies and to take whatever measures are necessary to address emergencies, as is necessary. Is that the case?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, that's not the case. They don't have the ability to declare emergencies. If you're talking about provincial emergencies, the Minister of Health has within the Act the ability to declare a provincial health emergency and my minister - the Minister of Emergency Management - has the ability to declare a provincial emergency for all hazard events. The Emergency Management Office - you're correct in saying that when we coordinate the response to the event, when we're at the table, those enforcement agencies such as, say, the provincial police service would be the RCMP, would be given the task of whatever would be . . .

MR. PREYRA: It would be the enforcement arm for that emergency.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Exactly.

MR. PREYRA: So there is an enforcement capacity, it's just that your office might not be the one on the front lines of doing that enforcing.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: That's correct.

MR. PREYRA: Also on the question of reviewing plans, I think I heard you say that the federal, provincial, and territorial ministers and the coordinating agencies had set up larger templates for the critical government departments and agencies to follow, and that

those templates were being used by the local authorities and agencies, and our plans were largely based on those plans that were being developed at the national level. Is that correct?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, the plans that I spoke about were the business continuity plans and those would be all - again, you'll hear me say all-hazard planning, which was the template developed through our office, the provincial office, and we submitted those out to all the different departments. They're available to municipalities, to anybody who wants them. But those are the plans right now that we're working with governments, the templates that we're working with government to ensure that an internationally-recognized template for emergency management, for business continuity, is being followed. We feel that by utilizing those guidelines, it best puts us in a position of lower risk of missing something.

MR. PREYRA: So it's your understanding that in developing those plans, those would conform with best practices.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Correct.

MR. PREYRA: Thank you. I'll hand my time over.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Very good, Mr. Whynott.

MR. MAT WHYNOTT: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you, Mr. MacLaughlan and your staff for coming this morning. From your opening remarks, I think Nova Scotians should feel quite confident for the province's preparedness for emergencies and, of course, my colleague from one of the other caucuses said that EMO is an entity that is always in transition, it's always moving forward and always trying to change plans as necessary.

Going back to your opening comments, I just wonder if you can expand on what you said in there around what a unified Incident Command System is, and just go through those steps.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I think what I'm going to do is - I have two experts sitting beside me, and this gentleman on my left, Andrew Lathem, has over 35 years of incident command experience - as I do, but you've heard it from me, so the fellow who runs the show during the times of event, I think it's important that the committee hear from him, if it's all right.

MR. ANDY LATHEM: So what specifically would you like to know about incident command?

MR. WHYNOTT: If you could just expand on it a little bit more.

MR. LATHEM: Well, the incident command system's history came from the 1970 wildfires in California, and as a result of several hundred thousand acres of homes and area burnt. There was a huge loss of homes, there was loss of life, and as a result of that, all the systems that came together recognized that they needed one common system that they could bring all the organizations together to focus them, and that is the history of incident command and where it emanated from.

As a result of that, over the years it is continuously improved to the point where it is today. A gentleman over here spoke about his fire service, and the health system, the ambulance service, also uses incident command. So you have RCMP, you have municipal police forces, you have fire services, all the first responders using incident command system. What that does is, if you have a specific situation where EHS goes and they have a mass casualty event, well, it's not just EHS, it's a number of other systems that come together. So the Incident Command System provides a common language, a common organizational structure that people understand, and it's scalable, so if you have a small disaster or a small emergency, you need a small organization in order to deal with it. If you have a big one, you need a big organization in order to deal with it - just reasonable, logical steps.

Well, with the scalable system - and I think in the instruction manual it says that you can have up to 5,200 people, first responders, working in one system and one event under ICS. What it does is, it provides accountability and it provides very specific areas of responsibility, situational awareness. What it does, the overall system, breaking it down very quickly - it provides the right information to the right people at the right time so the right decisions can be made.

Earlier there was a discussion about the executive group and what those responsibilities were. Well, if you look at the hierarchical structure of the executive group and where they sit, oftentimes they are actually going to be tasked with responsibilities emanating from the coal face, where people are actually out there doing the work and going back up through the system, and what is it that these folks need to reach their objectives and what do they need from that executive group? So decisions are being made at the executive group for special writs, expenditures, and so on and so forth. So very quickly and very synoptic, that's ICS 101.

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. WHYNOTT: Excellent, thank you very much. What other countries - is it most other countries and places in the world, do they use this model as well?

MR. LATHEM: It's prevalent over North America. It is used globally. I can't give you an exact number but it is a system that is used globally. In Nova Scotia, it has been used effectively in many situations and we use it in our operation centre. It allows for that all-hazards approach because even today as we're sitting here speaking, there's a tropical

depression that's brewing to the south of us, so we have our eye on that. As well, we have our eye on H1N1 and we're watching a number of things. So that is part of what incident command allows us to do.

One of the exercises that's coming up on October 20^th, it's an international exercise involving the International Emergency Management Group which we spoke about earlier; we'll be conducting an exercise with them. At the same time, we'll be conducting an exercise in Halifax here with federal, provincial and municipal folks.

So simultaneous exercises being conducted through the Joint Emergency Operations Centre - and you can see that this is the reality of what we do and as Craig said earlier, when we had the fires over in Spryfield, well, this is right in the midst of H1N1 at Kings Edgehill, as well as a number of other things that we're starting to watch. So you can see the flexibility of the system, the scalability of it, the accountability, and the efficiencies that are created being able to bring multiple agencies together in one common language, with one system that everyone understands.

MR. WHYNOTT: Again going back to the ICS model, what advantages does EMO have by using that model? What are the advantages of it?

MR. LATHEM: The biggest advantage in any after-action report that we've heard about, from Canadian events to global events, is communication. There are clear lines of responsibility. There's a common language that's spoken and communications - it creates an efficiency, situational awareness, with continual updates and a very structured business process that ensures that the information is not only being gathered but it's being collated. That information, as it comes in, is just information until it's verified. Once it's verified, then it becomes intelligence upon which you can base decisions. Those are some of the high points of the advantages of the ICS system.

MR. WHYNOTT: Okay, thank you. My next question is in regard to coordinating with other provinces. What work is being done to coordinate with other provinces through the various EMO organizations across the country?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN; We not only coordinate with other provinces but we also coordinate with the United States, other states, especially the close states such as Maine and New Hampshire. As Andy said, this exercise coming up in a couple of weeks time, we have a national event going on - we also have an international one with some of our friends in the Eastern Seaboard states.

I sit at the deputy minister level for emergency management across Canada, Andy sits at the senior directors level, called the SOREM group - Senior Officials Responsible for Emergency Management - also the CCM Group, which is the Canadian Council, and Mike sits on the national alerting program and other alerting programs at the national level. We

also sit at the communications level - as a matter of fact, my communications director is there as we speak today.

We meet on a regular basis and once a year we prepare briefings for the ministers, and once a year the ministers across Canada responsible for emergency management meet - that's in January of this year in Alberta. So we have a robust program with our friends across the country.

MR. WHYNOTT: If the Province of Nova Scotia needs help during a pandemic or any other emergencies that are declared within the province, do we have systems in place to ensure that we receive that help?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Absolutely. It's anything from, say, workers for power who would come from another province or from another state, such as Maine. If you needed doctors or nurses - if the Department of Health felt that within their planning they needed that, they would come to our office. During Hurricane Juan we needed snowplows from other provinces, that was all coordinated - sorry, White Juan - yes, Hurricane Juan put the trees out of the way. I guess things such as - well let's go back to Juan for a minute, when we needed the assistance of the military that all was coordinated through my office.

MR. WHYNOTT: Okay. I'm interested to find out what kind of training is provided to ensure that Nova Scotia is ready to respond to a pandemic or any other emergencies. Training could be to first responders or the Red Cross, those sorts of training opportunities - are there any in place right now?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Well if you look at the pandemic specifically, people are saying, what is it that we are going to be faced with? Well, we're going to be faced with the loss of staff, loss of services because of loss of staff. So that's why when we work with our partners within the government departments or non-government departments, those are the things that we concentrate on - how are you going to provide your essential services during an event such as a pandemic.

In other events, such as all hazards, you might have loss of facilities. So if a major building, housing, let's say the Maritime Centre was to catch on fire, you have a lot of government services that would not be immediately available. Those departments then have to enact a plan to an find alternate location to continue with their business.

That training is ongoing. My office has a training staff and if you were to go on our Web site, you'll see several courses that we offer. Those courses are offered to anybody who wishes to take them.

MR. WHYNOTT: Okay, thank you. Just a generic question - what advice can you give to Nova Scotians so that they can prepare for emergencies or a possible pandemic?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Well for the pandemic specifically, I would say listen to the Department of Health and the messages that they are pushing out. For all hazards, we are continually pushing our 72-hour message that each of us should have kits, ready kits to go, and in those kits you can go on our Web site and it will list what should be in them. You could have a car kit for winter use, you may get stuck in a snowstorm where food and water would be very important to get you through a period of time until snowplows can get the roads cleared, that type of thing.

If I might, and I'm glad you brought that question up - I was going to leave it for my closing remarks, but I think this is a good place to put it in. For 35 years, I've been working in the Civil Service. For 35 years, I have been using my abilities to protect Canadians, and at this point, Nova Scotians. Last night, I became a victim.

Last night I was evacuated from my home in Stewiacke. There was a guy walking around in the woods with a gun. I drove up with my wife to a roadblock and there's a police officer who says you can't go to your home. There I was, I had the clothes on my back; luckily I had a couple of dollars in my pocket. But it hit me harder than it's ever hit me and I think anybody that's got to know me knows how important I feel about emergency management and how I have pursued it very rigorously in the last five years.

So, I'm sitting there at a roadblock and I'm told to go register with Red Cross. They're all laughing at me because all of a sudden the guy who's usually directing it is now a victim. I guess a victim in that you can't get home. It's something that you really have to understand and it really made me think about the people in the Porters Lake fire or the last fire we had in Halifax or the snowstorms or the Cobequid Pass or all the things that have hit us as a province. All of a sudden, you're there and you're looking for somebody to help you.

Last night they were there. I'm proud to say my office was there, but the Red Cross was there, Community Services was there, the police were there, the fire department and the municipalities were there and all that they were doing was trying to make it comfortable for those people who were affected by- in the municipalities - everybody you could think of within the planning. So the municipal plan kicked in, my office was notified, I was already getting situational reports from Andy's shop on my way, figuring, oh, no, what am I going to be faced with.

I now know first hand, as a result of yesterday, not realizing it would be part of my presentation here today, the importance of emergency management. It proved to me that, again, it worked. Last night people were looked after, they were housed, they were fed, they were given information and when it was all over, that communication went out and by 7:15 p.m. I finally got back into my home.

I think that relates to part of your question, this province has prepared very well and we continue to do so.

[10:23 a.m. Mr. Preyra assumed the Chair.]

MR. WHYNOTT: Thank you. I believe I have only a few minutes left, is that right, Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have one minute.

MR. WHYNOTT: Just a quick question on municipal EMO coordinators. How much do you rely on them on any given day?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: There are 55 municipalities, some have REMOs, Regional Emergency Management Offices, where they have joined in. I'm very proud of the work that they do, we have a great structure, a plan in place. We work very closely with the municipalities and we continually encourage them about their training, exercising, establishing their emergency operation centres. We've had many events over the last five years where we've worked with them and it works well.

MR. WHYNOTT: One quick, last question. With all of the various structures in place, is Nova Scotia ready when it needs to be?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Ask me that question standing at the police line last night that says you can't go home, I don't know if I was ready. We're pretty tough as Nova Scotians and we respond individually pretty well.

Are we ready? There are a couple of things that still need addressing and that's the public alerting system. If you'd like, I could have Mike tell you where we're at with that. There are some concerns.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll begin our next round of 10 minutes with Mr. Glavine, the member for Kings West and he's going to share his time with our Chair, Ms. Whalen.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you. Just a couple of quick questions and one you already alluded to was the military. I live in a military community near 14 Wing Greenwood. Do you actually call in the military if we need them, like during a pandemic or a major mishap? Is that part of your role or is it more the coordination, or who does call in the military? I do have a good understanding of the kind of expertise they can often bring.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: They have great expertise. They are true partners in emergency management in Nova Scotia. How the system would work is, the call would come through to the provincial office that there was a need for the military. That request would go up through our partner who sits right next door, in the same building, on the same floor, called the federal government and the federal government would push that chain up.

I will tell you that Nova Scotia is the first province in Canada to have established a full-time military position who sits in my office and reports to me. That has now spread out to the four other Atlantic Provinces, but we have a Major Michel Ouellet who is part of my executive management team, who sits with the management members when we do our business. The reason that I did that and met with the military a few years ago was because the question - well, the military was always called after it's over. No, let's get the military up front, day to day, so that they are aware of what is going on. So now they are a part of all our briefings, are part of situation awareness, and like I said, they sit - at this point, he sits in the command centre upstairs with Andy.

MR. GLAVINE: I just want to end by thanking you for coming in this morning. I commend the work that you do, and especially probably clarifying some of that leadership role area. There is no question that the Auditor General was really talking about having a strong executive committee, and it will be up to us politicians in the Opposition to monitor the work of the executive committee and the kind of leadership role that you give to 930,000 Nova Scotians. So, with that, I thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.

MS. WHALEN: Thank you, and I'm just going quickly because this is a short round. You just mentioned about updating the alert system in some way. I'm wondering if you have looked at the reverse 911 that has been talked about - that's where calls go out to groups sort of like our Neighbourhood Watch, where we get a call out to a whole neighbourhood about an emergency? Can you just comment on that quickly?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: First of all, I will introduce Mike Myette again. Mike Myette is the grandfather of 911 - not that he's getting that old on me, but Mike is the one who started with the system here in the province, and we have the only provincewide 911 system, and one of his other files is public alerting. So I'll turn to Mike.

[10:30 a.m.]

MS. WHALEN: If you could say a few words on the Reverse 911?

MR. MYETTE: Yes. Reverse 911 is, of course, the ability to generate a message and have it sent to a direct geographic area. We have mapping in our province on which we can basically draw a polygon or a circle of any size and it will generate all the addresses in a data table.

Reverse 911 would work such that we would then send that data table to the phone company - in Nova Scotia, Bell Aliant manages the 911 database - and it would return us the phone numbers for all those civic addresses.

MS. WHALEN: Are you going to use it, is what I want to know. Any interest in it? I know how it works.

MR. MYETTE: We are anxiously waiting for an opportunity to use it, because the CRTC has advised the carriers to develop a tariff; we are anxiously awaiting Bell Aliant's release of a tariff so that we can understand what the costs are. We are in the planning mode for the technical side of it, but we're waiting for Bell Aliant to tell us how it would work. There is no Reverse 911 system yet available anywhere in Canada.

MS. WHALEN: It probably won't be in place this fall, if and when the pandemic comes, but I think it's of interest to us, and thank you very much. I'm sorry to be so short, but the time is short.

On the budget side, again, if I can from Mr. MacLaughlan - you indicated what your general budget is for 911 and for the office, but is there any contingency fund in place or any special funds in regard to the H1N1 possible pandemic?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Nothing with my office, but I'm not saying there isn't with the Department of Health or Health Protection. I'm not aware of that.

MS. WHALEN: We understand they have some money, but I just wondered if your office was getting any extra assistance for that. In looking at the pandemic plans, I thought we should be talking about some of the non-government agencies. I know that there have been reports of the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses having some sessions for their members, and I know I was at a panel for Capital Health where Valerie Payn spoke about the Chamber of Commerce having a plan.

I just wanted to ask you - one of the issues that comes up for the business community is the current Labour Standard Codes, which mean that people only get three days a year of sick leave under a standard code - unless you're under a union, you get different sick leave benefits. Is there any discussion around your table about how we can help businesses to keep people home or to change legislation that would allow you to say, this is an emergency, you have to keep your staff at home and somehow provide for them. We want people to stay home as long as they're sick, and if you only get three days of sick leave, you're going to want to come to work because you need money.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: My office's responsibilities are to coordinate a response.

MS. WHALEN: You don't look at those other issues?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No.

MS. WHALEN: Insurance? Couldn't you coordinate insurance for business, for example?

MS. MACLAUGHLAN: That wouldn't fall under our purview.

MS. WHALEN: It wouldn't, okay. Well, I think something needs to be done. Doctors are looking at insurance to cover them for missing hospital surgeries, the nursing union wants to negotiate their pandemic plans so that they're covered to stay home - it's going to be a major issue, because otherwise you're going to have sick people coming to work and infecting others, out of necessity. So that's one of my concerns but, okay, we can't get into that interesting area. I understand.

Have you identified the greatest risk in terms of public services that are needed? You talked about having a list of agencies - have you also a list that just talks about the greatest risk to the continuation of work in Nova Scotia?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I think what you're talking about is critical infrastructure and if that's what you're talking about, we work with critical infrastructure, government and non-government agencies. We're presently going through the plans that have been submitted to identify all those critical issues and I am presently preparing a brief that I will be presenting to government.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, it's not ready yet to have that?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No.

MS. WHALEN: That is one of the things that business is supposed to do - to begin with what are their greatest risks to continuing business. So I imagine you're doing that too.

I want to touch with you on the issue of shelters and homeless people. In the panel that I attended, they had somebody from the St. Leonard's Society who was talking about how the shelters would respond, because clearly they can't leave people out if they're sick and are exhibiting flu-like symptoms, they need to be sheltered. Are you looking at all on how the non-profits are going to be able to continue services to people who are homeless or people who need the food banks and so on?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Again, my office coordinates the response, but the responding agencies sitting at the table would be the Department of Community Services and the Red Cross and I know they're working on those issues.

MS. WHALEN: Do you know if there are any champion in the non-profit sector who you would point others to if they came to you and said - what can I do, I'm not ready for this

event. Are there any champions that you would say is a leader in the non-profits sector or in the private sector?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I'm not sure of your question.

MS. WHALEN: Well, who is showing others how to respond. Is there some company out there or some organization that have shown or have been champions for adopting plans for the pandemic that you could use a model for others who are searching?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Yes, I would think that you could look to the Department of Health and the Department of Health Promotion and Protection. You could look to our website at EMO. I'm sure if they were to contact Nova Scotia Power, I know who work on an exercise on a regular basis. But I think if they go to our website they will find some good information.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, I just noticed just yesterday, or it only came to my attention yesterday, but the Government of Saskatchewan through their Occupational Health and Safety Branch had put out a pandemic plan for businesses in their province. It says in their release that they patterned it on a similar guide produced in Alberta. They had some input from their other ministries, but it actually is a best-practice guideline for Occupational Health and Safety and they're sending it to all workplaces. Are we doing anything similar to that within the Government of Nova Scotia?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Our business continuity guidelines are on our website. Have we sent it out to businesses as of yet? No. But it is certainly something that I was going to review.

MS. WHALEN: We talked about communications - would that be something that would be a priority now, to communicate it? Because I think this is good, they did a release and again it is available and it is a checklist like you referred to, we probably have one.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I'm sure Communications sitting behind me is taking notes diligently for me.

MS. WHALEN: I think that is really important. Even the most basic information we can't say it often enough. If the answer is to wash your hands, then we have to keep saying it and we have to communicate it to every sector.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I know that there is a communications plan with the Department of Health and I know that they are working very hard at it. We've always seen it, we've all heard it and my staff is involved in it. I know there are more strategies for those weeks and months ahead. I know that and I know that those plans are coming out.

MS. WHALEN: I would just say that there are so many specific sectors that I think that need to have some fine tuning and some encouragement. I'm talking about daycare centres and universities and everything.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired. We will go next to the honourable member for Cape Breton North. You have 10 minutes.

MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, I, too, want to welcome our guests. Mr. MacLaughlan to go to the numbers, could you tell me your budget for this current year, the overall number and we're talking estimates at the same time here in the House?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: It about $6 million.

MR. CLARKE: So you're at $6 million and for those estimates, how much would you have allocated for the pandemic planning or the H1N1 situation that we're now facing?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: It's non-specific; we work on a daily basis for all hazard events, which includes pandemic. Remembering that we're a coordinating organization, so we would not treat it any differently than we would anything else. So if the Department of Health comes to us and says that they're overwhelmed and at this point they need our help to bring in added resources beyond their scope, then that is when we would kick in. So every day the funds that I have go toward all-hazard events.

MR. CLARKE: I only say, Mr. Chairman, because as you know last week with the Departments of Health and Health Promotion and Protection, they're actually tracking the amount of staff involvement and the actual real costs associated with pandemic planning associated with the H1N1 response. Because really it comes down to why we're here as well - the actual cost to the public and the value for money derived. I know, especially for EMO, you're always trying to deal with those circumstances which have been extraordinary and prepare for the ones that are not yet known. So you're always managing a lot of unknowns and trying to be as prepared, and hopefully never having to engage your system to the degree that you have to have the modeling for.

[10:38 a.m. Ms. Diana Whalen reassumed the Chair.]

The other discussion that was held last week, Madam Chairman, was around the budgetary aspect of this, specific to trying to track where we are with H1N1. How it does flow, I guess, as it goes forward. I would just note, Mr. MacLaughlan, if there are things specific to H1N1 that then get triggered by your organization, if you can flag that because through the Public Accounts Committee, we will be looking to monitor how much time was spent. The true cost of trying to track a whole pandemic that is known and that's real at this time, because part of where we're going is where the decisions will come before Cabinet.

Now, last week there was $10.8 million that we could identify and then subbed here of already expended money, or approved money, by Cabinet or Treasury Board and then there was the tier of saying, well, DHAs will have their involvement. So if it's going to then potentially be in a community where there may be other EMO response, then we're going to be looking at trying to track that to learn how much resources are truly needed to deal with a pandemic. I would just maybe note that for maybe a future question and not something that I expect you to have to track today but it is something that we're going to be monitoring in response to this topic.

As we do know and I guess bringing it to light, I would ask the question as well since in some ways it may have been good to have all three for a longer session because we're kind of going back and forth to track because it is an element. When any submissions go forward to Treasury Board or Cabinet to resource this, are they joint submissions by all three entities or are you only engaged if they deem it a need?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I would be engaged if they deemed it a need. At this point in time, during an event, if the Department of Health asked us to step to the plate, we open up the door in the emergency operation centre and we focus in on pandemic. One of the seats that sits at the table is the Department of Finance. So would we track it at that time? Absolutely.

MR. CLARKE: So in dealing with your counterparts at Health Promotion and Protection and the Department of Health, what specific to H1N1, what specific plan has been anticipated? Have they looked at it and at what point they would draw in EMO? I guess maybe what modeling have you brought forward on that matter with them?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Some of the things that we talk about and the question I think that you're asking is, what's the trigger?

MR. CLARKE: Right.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: In a lot of these events, you're really not sure what the trigger is until you get there. In this case I would believe that the health care system would be overwhelmed and that they would not be able to deal with their regular day-to-day business. I think that would be the trigger. I think then I'm sure there would be conversations with my office and then we would move forward on what the next step would be.

MR. CLARKE: So with that, of your $6 million, there's no money identified for H1N1 or preparedness. It was just going to be on an as- needed basis, go forward to Treasury or Cabinet for approval, correct?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: If there was but, again, you must remember that it's going to be the response agency that would be looking for the funding. My agency, when it kicks

in, wouldn't be specific for the pandemic. We wouldn't be ordering things out of my budget specifically for the pandemic. My office would be running the coordination which it does for other events.

MR. CLARKE: And like any other, for instance, Hurricane Juan or the like, and floods, you would incur those costs and you track the costs once they're triggered, you then would be tracking the true costs of that?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: That's correct.

MR. CLARKE: And I guess, Madam Chairman, what I'm looking at is, we heard last week of the deficit funded slush fund of $54 million that has been set aside by the Minister of Finance. Here in this room, a couple of days ago, he indicated finally that likely the vast majority of that $54 million would be going into H1N1 preparedness. When we last met in the Chamber, we anticipated it would be tens of millions of dollars. Part of that is just knowing if they've obviously done financial modeling within the Department of Finance for H1N1, then of that, how much would actually involve the EMO portion, knowing they are a trigger event. They obviously have built-in contingencies because it is very clear that if they are going to use the vast majority of that $54 million - while it's not important to EMO, it means that wage settlements which were also indicated as a factor - it's going to be consistent that they're not going to fund those because there's very little money left if you follow the minister's statements here in this room.

So one of the things is that Cabinet already has a number for H1N1 as a pandemic response and it looks to be, again, in the tens of millions. If you go to the fact that we're going to have - the Chief Medical Officer said 3,000 to 5,000 retired nurses - up to 4,000 retired nurses potentially called upon to help deliver over 800,000 vaccinations alone, with the education and the orientation required. So as we go forward, I guess we will look at that and try to determine where the next steps are. So again, you don't have to comment on any of that.

The point is that government does have numbers, they have built in detail and I would only assume if they have numbers for the Department of Health and the Department of Health Promotion and Protection, that they would have an EMO number of some sort that we'll want to look at as part of that modeling in dealing with a pandemic. Also at that modeling, they are also counting and factoring in the potential impact or areas where it would be triggered. So again we'll be looking to follow that, Mr. MacLaughlan, as opposed to you having to present those numbers.

[10:45 a.m.]

I guess one of the other things, Madam Chairman, is I think last week it was very clearly stated that all three were working concurrently, I believe, as they were going forward.

So can you just again reiterate, for my benefit, what is your working relationship with Health Promotion and Protection and the Department of Health on an ongoing basis? They indicated it was lock in step, from my understanding from the meeting we had last week.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Yes, absolutely. The Department of Health have their own Emergency Management Health within Health Promotion and Protection. The director there works hand in hand with our operations. I work with the deputy minister's committee. Of course they now at this time sit as subject matter experts with the executive committee.

I think the one thing we have to remember here, though, is that EMO may never be called to the table for this pandemic. We may never be called to the table because Dr. Strang himself will tell you, and has told me, that the health care system as we presently have it and the systems that we have in place - the event itself may not overwhelm them to a point to where they need the Emergency Management Office.

The reason that we stayed lock step with them at this point in time in reference to preparedness and/or consequence management - what we look at - is that we don't want to get caught behind the eight ball. We stay with them, we work with them, we watch what is going on, we keep our situational awareness. At the same time, we're watching what other things that are happening, between our flooding and our hurricanes. We're walking so that if they do pull that trigger, if we see it starting to come - I mean look how quick SARS hit. It wasn't months - it was in days that it hit. We'd be in step with them. We'd stand up the operations centre and we stand beside them to assist them as they try to deal with whatever the issue is.

MR. CLARKE: Madam Chairman, with that I truly hope we never have to trigger EMO as part of this pandemic planning. I do recognize that the officials and professionals at all levels have been doing an outstanding job on that. I mean ours is looking at the executive level response to these issues . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Your time has just about elapsed.

MR. CLARKE: . . . and ultimately, if you go to that, if you are ever triggered, potentially there's an involvement with the Government of Canada because they have been involved with the cost-sharing here so we'd assume that potentially they may be triggered if you are ever triggered and hopefully you are not.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I might add that there is no DFA program for pandemic and that is something I'm working on at the national level.

MR. CLARKE: Which is where I was going. Okay, thank you Madam Chairman.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The last 10 minutes of questioning are for the NDP caucus. I'll call on Ms. Zann.

MS. LENORE ZANN: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thanks, gentlemen, for coming in here today and for the other day. I really appreciate all your answers. It makes me feel a lot more comfortable. I feel, in my dealings with you on several occasions now - I feel very safe in your hands. I hope I have good reason to feel that way, but I really do, I think you take your job seriously and I really thank you for that.

I'd like to ask you a couple of things. I know that originally the Auditor General was concerned about certain things that were not really prepared for at that time, back in February, one of them being the education system, the public schools. My sister is a teacher, her husband's a teacher, they have school-age kids and I know a lot of their friends are really concerned. I'd just like to know what has been put in place now that has taken the place of those insufficient measures? For public education, also for the college and university level and also the daycare agencies. I'm concerned and curious about what has been put in place - could you help me with that?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I need you to help me a little more - was that a recommendation for the Department of Health?

MS. ZANN: Well, it was a recommendation back in February that there would be more continuity management put in place. I'm just wondering if you know anything about that or have you any involvement in that for emergency measures if the pandemic hits?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I think I'd have to get some more information from you because I'm not sure what you're referring to. It might be something that the Department of Health is dealing with or the Department of Education is dealing with.

MS. ZANN: Yes, like if the teachers are sick or if daycare people that are looking after the children are . . .

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I suggest that would probably be through those departments that you would get your best answers.

MS. ZANN: Okay, thank you. Also, just wondering about the First Nations and if there's been any more updates about that. I know they were very hard hit in certain areas where they've already had the pandemic. Do you have anything you could tell us about that?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Yes, I do. I've been very concerned about our First Nation communities here in Nova Scotia and their level of preparedness, though it's not a provincial responsibility, but solely a federal jurisdiction, as we all know. However, one of the gentlemen who sits on my executive committee with the municipalities is a member of the

First Nations community and he said one day, yes, I know I'm First Nations, but I'm also a Nova Scotian and I said, yeah, you are.

As a result of that, I've worked very hard, and my staff, to get more involved with the First Nations communities. As a matter of fact, last week in Ottawa, at deputy minister meetings we challenged the Assistant Deputy Minister of INAC - Indian and Northern Affairs Canada - what is it you're doing? I must have done a good job because by the time I got back I'd already had an invite to look at a memorandum of understanding with INAC and this province and, actually, the other Atlantic Provinces. There are staff that are now working on that.

There's no doubt that we want to make sure they are at the same level in preparedness as our other municipalities and counties are and we're going to work hard towards that goal.

MS. ZANN: That's great, thank you. There was just one other thing. You'd mentioned that there are some training programs that are offered to ensure the municipal, provincial and federal officials are ready for any kind of emergency. I think you mentioned there's something coming up for the pandemic training.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: No, as we speak right now there's a conference on the go - actually I'm speaking at it tomorrow morning - that I believe is sponsored by the Department of Health. It's all to do with health and health emergencies and it's all to do around the pandemic.

We do not teach a specific course with pandemic. Our courses are all related to all hazards so that we have a much broader view of how to deal with emergencies.

MS. ZANN: Actually, I have a good relationship with the mayor of both Colchester County and Truro and they seem to be very prepared which makes me feel a lot better for my particular area. Thank you, I think that's basically all I really needed to know today.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions from the NDP caucus? There is a little less than five minutes.

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Thank you for the opportunity. I thought others today were going to be using up our time. You referred to your Web site and I think more people should be geared to examining your Web site and so on. I'll be doing that after this meeting. Can you elaborate a little bit on what people can learn from your Web site in relation to the possible pandemic?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Specific pandemic, as I said earlier, what most people are looking at is loss of staff. On my Web site, you're not going to find specific to the pandemic,

I would suggest you go on the Department of Health, which we would have a link to, and there's a pandemic link on our Web site.

On our Web site, as you go through our new revised Web site, it will give you different things to look at, such as personal preparedness, family preparedness and business preparedness. There are sites for children to look at. The DFAA program, the Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangement program, which is the federal program that we administer for the province - we've revamped that whole thing. It's on-line now.

I think our responses with the federal government on our recoveries is going to be much better now. The last couple of events that we've had, our claims have been processed much faster. We've got them up through, you know, we've closed them out. So there are many things that people can go on, Nova Scotians go on and look at our site, get information and, you know, sign up for courses. Also, if they need to, they can contact us.

MR. MACKINNON: I know the incident command structure has been around for about 30 years and certainly the little chart that you passed out, it doesn't look overly complicated, but there are quite a few lines going every which way - in very simple lay terms, can you just describe your chart a little bit here?

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: I'll turn that back over to Andy.

MR. LATHEM: Basically you can take that chart and you can populate it under the different areas, and the span of our reporting accountability ranges from five to seven that people supervise. So for each five fire people, police, whoever is at the coal face, they report in and through that structure - I'm speaking specifically now about operations. During the business process what we have is structured planning times. So once the objectives are set for the overall situation that confronts us, the objectives are set, the planning folks go out and they are already putting plans in place, looking for four hours - and that is the reporting system that we have within the emergency operation centre.

What they do is then those tactics - the tacticians who are out at the coal face are implementing them in order to achieve the objectives, and then we get continuous reports on how their progress is being made to attain those. So we're constantly being updated and fed information back from the field, but we're not doing that in a manner that inhibits their work, and the same for . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. I wonder, we have just one more question for you and one minute to go, so could I interrupt?

MR. LATHEM: Certainly.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: If I could turn it over to Mr. Preyra.

MR. PREYRA: I just had a follow-up question on that question relating to the Department of Education and its plans, and also the question of whether or not plans were being submitted and reviewed. This committee is going to be inviting the Capital District Health Authority and the IWK and the Pictou County Health Authority because we want to get a window on specific businesses - if we can call them that - and their continuity plans and what provisions they've made and, particularly, their relations with stakeholders in the community, like the relationship between the IWK and the Department of Education. So we are trying to get a sense of the business plans because it seems to lie at the heart of the question, you know, it's just the heart of that chain - if I can mix my metaphors - so we are going to look at that.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Your time has elapsed, but I appreciate that comment.

MR. PREYRA: Thank you very much for allowing me that minute, Madam Chairman.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: With that, we've had our round of questioning and I would like to offer a few minutes to Mr. MacLaughlan to sum up, or have closing remarks.

MR. MACLAUGHLAN: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and committee members, again for taking the time and your questions. We always welcome the opportunity to discuss the work of the Emergency Management Office. As I prepared my remarks last week, the news headlines read Phillippines typhoon and a second one coming in; Indonesia, earthquake, another one came in; the Samoa tsunami - and this morning the headlines say Stewiacke evacuations, and then it says heavy rains are expected tonight and we've got somewhere, possible flooding. That's why I talk about all hazards.

So when we look at the events taking place in the world today and in Nova Scotia in the past, it brings home the need for strong and effective emergency management. The safety of our families is at stake.

So we have taken important steps forward, but we know that there is always more to do. EMO will continue to follow the evolution of best practices and adapt our processes as we learn and grow. Nova Scotians deserve the best in emergency management and we are committed to doing our part to deliver it.

I would invite everyone in this room - media, MLAs, committee members, I invite you to come to our centre to see what's going on. I assure you it'll give you a better sense of this province's preparedness.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I would just remind Mr. MacLaughlan that we have two items that have been asked for - one was a list of the critical outside agencies that you've identified specifically related to the pandemic planning, and the

question that I had that you defined as critical infrastructure, that you have a list of that as well, and that would be for all committee members. So the information can be given to our committee clerk. That would be very helpful and we do thank you for your time today.

For the committee members, there is no new business to attend to. Our next meeting is going to be on the 21^st because, as you can see on your agenda, we've rescheduled the emergency rooms closure issue to November 4^th.

Next week we will have a meeting of our agenda-setting committee; we're going to leave that until October 14^th. So that being said, I'd like a motion to adjourn.

So moved.

We are adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 11:00 a.m.]