HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

Ms. Maureen MacDonald (Chair)

Mr.Chuck Porter (Vice-Chairman)

Hon. Patrick Dunn

Mr. Keith Bain

Mr. Graham Steele

Mr. David Wilson (Sackville-Cobequid)

Mr. Keith Colwell

Mr. Leo Glavine

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Mr. James Muir replaced Hon. Patrick Dunn]

WITNESSES

Department of Health Promotion and Protection

Mr. Duff Montgomerie, Deputy Minister

Dr. Robert Strang, Chief Public Health Officer

Department of Agriculture

Mr. Paul LaFleche, Deputy Minister

Mr. Mike Horwich, Director of Food Protection and Enforcement

Mr. Leo Muise, Executive Director, Legislation and Compliance Branch

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Ms. Sherri Mitchell

Legislative Committees Office

Ms. Evangeline Colman-Sadd

Assistant Auditor General

Mr. Terry Spicer

Assistant Auditor General

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Chief Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 14, 2009

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

9:00 A.M.

CHAIR

Ms. Maureen MacDonald

VICE-CHAIRMAN

Mr. Chuck Porter

MADAM CHAIR: Good morning, I'd like to call the committee to order. We're a little thin on the ground today in terms of committee members. I understand a few of the members are on the road and may be joining us as the morning unfolds.

I would like to welcome today the witnesses we have from the Department of Health Promotion and Protection and the Department of Agriculture. We will begin in the usual fashion with introductions from the members, from our Auditor General and staff, and then if each of the witnesses could introduce themselves. I've noticed you've all adjusted your microphones, which is a very bad thing to do - bad, bad, bad. (Laughter)

There's a little red light that will come on when you speak. The members will attempt to identify to whom they are directing the question because we have so many speakers. If you're going to hand a question off to one of your colleagues, if you would indicate that, that would really help Legislative Television to turn the appropriate microphone on. Otherwise, if you wish to speak and your light isn't on, if you would signal the Chair, I will identify you and that way we will try to keep the right microphones going. So that's basically it and no more moving those microphones, okay?

[The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. The opening round of questions will be 20 minutes in length. We'll begin with Mr. Wilson from the NDP caucus - oh, opening statement, sorry. We'll have an opportunity to have an opening statement from the deputy ministers.

Mr. Montgomerie, please.

MR. DUFF MONTGOMERIE: Thank you, Madam Chair. Before I begin, again with me is Dr. Robert Strang, our Chief Public Health Officer. Last summer seven provinces were affected by a listeriosis outbreak that started at a Maple Leaf meat products plant in Ontario. As a result, a total of 56 Canadians became ill and 20 people died.

Some of the meat that was part of the nationwide recall was distributed in Nova Scotia, but fortunately no one in this province got sick from this strain of listeriosis. In order to take timely and necessary steps to protect the health of Nova Scotians, the Department of Health Promotion and Protection worked closely with the Food Safety Division of the Department of Agriculture. On the federal level, we also collaborated with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the Public Health Agency of Canada.

During a national event such as this, we depend upon the Public Health Agency of Canada to relay and coordinate information for all provincial public health agencies in Canada. Contact with the Public Health Agency of Canada occurred on a regular basis through conference calls, e-mail and Web postings.

HPP's major responsibility was surveillance, while supporting the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture with the recall of the product. At the provincial level the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health Promotion and Protection were in regular contact and worked together to keep Nova Scotians informed and protected. The Health Protection Act, under which we work, provides both departments with the mandate and the legal framework to prevent, detect, manage, and contain health threats, including contaminated food.

Health professionals and provincial laboratories are required to report diseases like listeriosis to the medical officers of health. Once a medical officer of health has a report of an outbreak, a protocol is then in place to investigate and manage the situation. In this case, Nova Scotia's response started once an above-normal number of cases of listeriosis were detected in other parts of Canada. Staff reviewed reports from Nova Scotia and determined that we had one case of listeriosis and that it was not linked to the Maple Leaf recall. It is normal, in fact, for this province to experience six to eight cases of listeriosis a year.

Health Promotion and Protection took additional steps to prevent the outbreak from spreading to this province. Staff formed an internal working group to monitor and respond to the situation. The province's laboratory network initiated active surveillance to provide early warning if there were any cases. Letters and fact sheets were sent to health care

providers to ensure they were aware of the recall and the symptoms of listeriosis. The public also was informed during the outbreak, both through updates on our Web site and through Dr. Strang's numerous interviews with the media.

It goes without saying, the listeriosis outbreak was a tremendous challenge for all involved. Both departments responded quickly and effectively to that challenge, largely because the province has recognized the increasing importance of a strong public health system and has made significant investments in our public health renewal.

There is always room for improvement. For instance, this province is in need of an electronic public health management system. Work is already underway on such a system, called Panorama, and it will be on-line beginning next year.

Ultimately no two outbreaks are ever the same. Each one provides us with a set of new lessons to learn. With listeriosis we were both fortunate and well prepared and by incorporating these lessons into the public health system, when the next outbreak arrives, Health Promotion and Protection will be in an even better position to respond. Thank you, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. Mr. LaFleche.

MR. PAUL LAFLECHE: Okay, we've already made a few introductions, which were part of my opening remarks, but I would like to point out that Mike Horwich, who is sitting next to me, is the administrator under the Act and it's a legal title named by the minister. Working for him are certified public health inspectors, who are the inspectors under the Act, so Mike will speak to the whole enforcement part of it in the questioning.

We, all three of us - Mr. Muise, Mr. Horwich and I - are pleased to answer any questions you have in regard to the Department of Agriculture's role, either under Section 2 of the Health Protection Act, or otherwise in terms of meat inspection and other health protection and food inspection activities.

As Deputy Montgomerie has already stated, some of the meat that was part of the nationwide recall was distributed in Nova Scotia, but fortunately no one in this province got sick from this strain of listeriosis which was involved in this voluntary recall. We are pleased to have taken an active role in the department and we are pleased with the professionalism which was shown by our Food Safety staff, under Mike Horwich, during this national outbreak.

The department is responsible for the Province of Nova Scotia's Food Safety program - that is dictated actually in the Act. The department looks after the provincial licensing of meat processing - and I stress the word "provincial" - retail food outlets, restaurants, and oversees activities related to food and consumer safety. If you wish to know, Mike has a long

list of the types of institutions - including camps, et cetera - that we do inspect and how we inspect them and what the risk management system is.

The Food Safety section is located within the Food Protection and Enforcement division of the Department of Agriculture. It is mandated to provide for the health protection of Nova Scotians through ensuring quality food products are available. This objective is achieved through legislation - that is, regulation - and through education, and those are two important components.

Nova Scotia's Food Safety section is responsible for the inspection and permitting of provincial retail food service facilities - and I emphasize "provincial" - and the provincial Meat Inspection Program. Staff provide public awareness of food safety issues through education and they inspect foods from the production and processing levels, all the way through to the final sale at the retail level.

Our Food Safety staff conduct their regulatory activities through legislation. I mentioned the Health Protection Act, Part II, but also through the Agriculture and Marketing Act and the Meat Inspection Act.

The Retail Food Service Inspection Program covers all food-service operations in this province, including restaurants, food shops, school cafeterias, daycare kitchens, hospital and long-term care homes, summer camps and retail grocery stores. They carry out inspections and audits on a risk-based assessment, which Mr. Horwich will detail at a later point. The Food Safety program can directly control some of the factors that affect our food. The program can also influence outcomes and, in some cases, respond to emerging food safety issues such as this summer's outbreak. Food safety is everyone's responsibility, starting at the farm, and continuing with the processor and retailer through to the consumer.

Our Food Safety team is made up of specialists who are nationally certified through the Canadian Institute of Public Health Inspectors. They all have degrees or diplomas in public health inspection. In fact, Mr. Horwich has graduated from Dalhousie in biology, he's got a Certificate in Public Health Inspection from Ryerson, and Masters in Health Services Administration and Public Administration from Dalhousie. Many of our inspectors have graduated from the nationally recognized program at Cape Breton University, the only one in Atlantic Canada.

We also have food inspection technicians who are experienced in meat and dairy inspection. They have specialized training in inspection procedures and also have diplomas, degrees or training in animal science. They are a very well-trained team of professionals.

Our Food Safety staff work with the Department of Agriculture's laboratory services when the need arises. They also have access to the medical officers of health, through Dr. Strang and his group, on matters of food safety, through the Department of Health Promotion

and Protection. Staff work closely with the federal government on food safety issues, through the Canadian Food Inspection Agency - CFIA for short - specifically on food recalls and food illness outbreaks, like this summer's listeriosis outbreak which occurred in seven provinces. This is where our participation was called upon by the CFIA when Maple Leaf Foods voluntarily recalled specific food products.

[9:15 a.m.]

MADAM CHAIR: Order. I'm going to interrupt you for a moment. We try to keep the opening statements to about five minutes.

MR. LAFLECHE: That's good, I can finish right now, you're good.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. So the opening round of questions will be 20 minutes per caucus and I recognize Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for coming in and talking about, I think, an important issue, an issue that I think most Nova Scotians and Canadians never thought about. They didn't give much attention or paid much attention to food safety in our province or across our country until the unfortunate events of the listeriosis outbreak, I think, in late 2007 and last year.

I know all Nova Scotians were shocked, they were alarmed and saddened by the events and by the deaths of some 20 Canadians. It's fortunate, I guess, that we hadn't seen a death in Nova Scotia, and I'll ask some questions later on about illnesses in Nova Scotia and how difficult it is, I think, to identify illnesses which are caused by listeriosis or are caused by food.

It leads you to ask many questions. I know myself, as a consumer, as a parent, for one, who makes most of my kids' lunches, and I think most Nova Scotians were concerned. I was alarmed myself walking to our local grocery store, wondering what was safe, what should I buy - should I buy this product? Do we have the controls in place on a national level, on a provincial level, to ensure food safety here in our province?

I know that the listeriosis outbreak was in the federal jurisdiction because of the origin of the meat, but there is a responsibility upon the government here in Nova Scotia to ensure that the food safety controls are in place here in our province.

I'll ask questions specifically about the listeriosis outbreak, what the response of the federal government was, and our response, and are they adequate. Does the federal government have the resources, in your opinion, and do they spend enough energy and time on food safety, and do we have that in our own province for the jurisdiction that we have

over restaurants and daycares and other facilities that we inspect or that the government inspects here in the province?

I'm not too sure where to go with the questions, so I'll ask the questions and maybe you can identify who would be most appropriate to answer. The first one, I think the most important question is, are we safe here in Nova Scotia? Should Nova Scotians feel comfortable that the controls are in place to ensure the safety of the food that we buy when we walk into our local grocery store?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: Yes, maybe if you don't mind - is that our jurisdiction, Duff? (Laughter) What I was going to say is maybe Mr. Horwich could talk about the risk-based system that we use to ensure safety because I think that's at the crux of your question, and then, if you wish, Dr. Strang can address the other part.

MADAM CHAIR: Great. Mr. Horwich.

MR. MIKE HORWICH: Thank you very much for this opportunity to respond to that. First of all, I'd like to say that the food here in Nova Scotia is very safe. You should feel comfortable, as a consumer, as a parent, to purchase food in grocery stores and in restaurants. We have a significantly strong system in terms of legislation, resources, individuals are well-trained, support and education that allows me to say that, and I'm quite pleased to report that to you.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Are you satisfied or were you satisfied with the actions of the federal government? Did you feel that they had the resources? I know you can talk specifically to yours but you must have talked amongst your colleagues, amongst yourselves to say they didn't do a great job at the national level, we have to make sure we do a better job provincially - have you had those discussions? Do you feel that they had taken the steps to ensure that this doesn't happen again, for one, but that there could have been some things that they should have done better to ensure it didn't happen?

MR. HORWICH: Throughout this event I was in constant contact with the recall coordinator for the federal government. I would like to characterize this event as one of a significant food recall and not an investigation of an outbreak of listeriosis, so there's a major difference there. The discussions that we had with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency were efficient, effective, productive. They allowed us to support their activities very quickly. There were areas that I think because of the vast distribution of these food products, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency requested our assistance. We have a number of people on the field geographically located throughout the province and we permit many of these facilities that we identified as high-risk. Those would be nursing homes, hospitals, child care facilities, homes for special care. We permit these so we had an inventory of them.

When I had the opportunity to discuss this with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, I suggested that we visit these places, contact these places, and that would be the focus of our activities. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency had their staff looking after the food wholesalers and following up on areas where the food was distributed.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): That kind of leads me into the next question. You mentioned investigation - I know that the Prime Minister, prior to the last federal election, had announced he would like to see an arm's-length investigation into what happened with Maple Leaf. Has your department, or are you aware if the government sent correspondence or advised the federal government that we, as a province, who really do most of the work on behalf of the federal government when it comes to making sure that the public is safe, are you asking them, or are you aware of the government asking them to ensure that happens so that your role in this is a priority for the federal government?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Montgomerie.

MR. MONTGOMERIE: To the honourable member, a very quick point is you mentioned federal jurisdiction. The process, for example, when Ontario became aware of what they were tracking and made the Public Health Agency of Canada aware, they automatically swung into the national framework that they do very well and brought all of the other public health agencies into play.

In December I did write Dr. David Butler-Jones, who is the Chief Public Health Officer for Canada, and Morris Rosenberg, Deputy Minister of Health, after we had discussions at a Health deputies' meeting in Ottawa where we agreed to a process that would be organized and constructive, where the provinces could feed back to Dr. Butler-Jones and Deputy Rosenburg, and then following that they would arrange a meeting with the CFIA officials where we would all sit down and learn from this event. So that process is underway.

Until the Prime Minister appoints the inquiry, the Public Health Agency of Canada and the provinces from the health side wanted to make sure we didn't let lessons that we learned go cold. CFIA and the Public Health Agency of Canada are engaged in that lessons-learned process right now.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): One of the things I've read going through some of the research for this is a call for a national coordinated surveillance program. Are you aware of a call for that? Is that something that would assist the province in your work and maybe in identifying problems that happened with this past outbreak?

MR. MONTGOMERIE: I would defer to Dr. Strang.

MADAM CHAIR: Dr. Strang.

DR. ROBERT STRANG: Are you talking about human illness surveillance?

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Yes.

DR. STRANG: Well, there is a national system, all of the provinces have notifiable diseases where there are legislative requirements. We collect that information and that is then forwarded to the Public Health Agency of Canada and is then, when necessary, as happened with listeriosis, when Ontario became aware of their outbreak, that was very rapidly communicated across the country.

Part of the purpose of Panorama is to move that surveillance system into a single electronic process and Nova Scotia is one of the provinces leading in the implementation of that. But I wouldn't want to leave the impression that there is not a national surveillance system right now.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I know I said yes, but I think I wanted to say no. I understand the health aspect, but I believe what they were talking about was certain foods that may cause people to be sick more often, there is discussion around having some kind of coordinated program for that. I don't know if the deputy minister is aware of that, but we can leave that because that's more on the federal side.

Really, when you have seen what happened over the last year or so, as I said earlier, it asks the question, are we prepared? Here in the province I understand that we have inspectors in place that inspect everything from restaurants to daycares to long-term care facilities, any organization that sells or prepares food. How many inspectors do we have in the province who are on the streets looking for potential problems or risk areas and ensuring that facilities and establishments follow the rules that we have? How many inspectors do we have currently?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Thank you. There are 24 public health inspectors and 14 meat inspectors that we have. We also have six fish officers as well. We have a "pasture to the plate" system, or "boat to the throat" if you're fisheries inclined, in which case we work through the food continuum right from production to final sale and education of the consumer. We have a very active workforce. We do in excess of 10,000 inspections a year at restaurants, grocery stores, institutions, and these are risk-based inspections - that is, we put our resources toward areas of higher risk more than lower risk. We have a very responsive complaint investigation system and we participate with the Department of Health Promotion and Protection and the district health agencies in terms of communicable disease control.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So 24 inspectors would be for restaurants, daycares, long-term care facilities, those areas. The 14 beef inspectors and six fisheries, I would assume, would be more in the processing part of that area, is that correct?

MR. HORWICH: That's correct.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So you have 24 individuals, and I would take it that they're spread out across the province.

MR. HORWICH: They are.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): They do, you said, 10,000 inspections, but does that include the beef and fisheries inspections? So those 24 people are doing 10,000 inspections, is it, a year, did you say?

MR. HORWICH: Yes, approximately.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I'm not the best at math but that's a large number when you break it down to each inspector. Do you know how many daycares we have in the Province of Nova Scotia, roughly?

MR. HORWICH: Yes, I can - if you just . . .

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): We have a lot, right?

MR. HORWICH: Oh yes, we have a lot.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I don't really need the exact number. I'm trying to frame up a question, I guess - we have many daycares.

MR. HORWICH: About 300.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): We have, I don't know how many long-term care facilities, it's always changing because of the government increasing the numbers - not to the number that we think we need, but that's another debate.

Restaurants are huge numbers. I mean when you look at the number of inspectors, 24, is that adequate? Do you have the appropriate number of inspectors to do the job, I think, especially in light of what happened here in the past year with listeriosis? Do you feel you have the appropriate number and are there vacancies right now, or are you trying to fill vacancies?

MR. HORWICH: I'm very comfortable in the number that we have, particularly given their skill set. I believe there is one vacancy but it's an administrative vacancy at the time, where someone's in the job, it's just a conversion of status of employment.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): We know that the budget will be starting to be prepared by the government, have you requested additional resources to increase that number in the next fiscal year?

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. HORWICH: No, I have not made such a request. We received two additional public health inspector full-time equivalents last year, or the year before, and then there was an administrative position given to us this year for our new database, which I'm sure you are aware of.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So two new inspectors would have probably been the 2007 budgets?

MR. HORWICH: Yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So last year, was there an increase in your budget, was there an increase in staffing? There was no increase in the staffing level, other than in administration.

MR. HORWICH: That's correct.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): And that really had to deal with the reporting of the restaurant inspections, I believe, on the Web, is that correct?

MR. HORWICH: That's correct, yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So with everything that happened in the past, over the last year or so with the outbreak of listeriosis, you don't feel that it warrants more attention from the government, more priority, or a higher level of priority to ensure the safety? Have you had that discussion amongst yourselves, amongst the department, with the ministers involved, that this - we were lucky that we didn't have a death in Nova Scotia. But if we had 10 of those 20 deaths, would we be discussing something different today? Would we see an increase in your budget by 20 per cent? Would we see 20 more inspectors?

We were lucky that we didn't have a death. So even though we didn't have a death, I think it still warrants the government to recognize the importance of food safety. So have you had discussions that we should increase the resources we have? Should we ask the government to pay a little bit more attention to this because of the seriousness of what could

happen in the future and that we need to be prepared? I know that's kind of an open question, but have you had those discussions, say, that we need to pay more attention and this is a time when our services and what we do is important and can be more recognized by government and maybe bumped up a little bit on the priority list?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Muise.

MR. LEO MUISE: I don't know if there has ever been a civil servant sit on this side of the room who didn't take an opportunity like you just presented to us. (Laughter) But I think, as Mike has said, we're quite comfortable with how things are going, as they are going now.

These two budget subjects have never suffered from a lack of money. I'm not here saying that they're balanced every year, because our workload goes up and down, our travel changes every year, but we always move money around from maybe other activities that are taking place.

We also, I think, in co-operation with CFIA and EMO and others, are prepared on the animal disease side of this equation, and after the bird flu scare of two or three years ago we have a significant amount of surge capacity that's available to us. I think I'm getting to your point about what if we did have 20 illnesses or problems here, we certainly couldn't do it with what we've got, but how often do we get that? So we have made and we would make other staff available, maybe to assist. They may not have the technical experience that the professionals have but we have a robust staff in our branch that would assist, such as veterinarians or our lab personnel or whoever, to get over this type of hump.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): With the new Web site that's in place with the inspection of the restaurants, has that placed a bit more burden? Have you found over the last while - because it's been on-line now maybe two months, I think, or somewhere around there - how are you finding the resources dedicated to that? Do you have to take away from something else to ensure that's up and running, because it was a commitment from the government to do that - how have the last number of months been? Are the resources there for that or are you going to need to look at maybe requesting additional support for that program?

MR. MUISE: The new system, it's a comprehensive electronic digitized type of database. The reports on-line get a huge amount of attention. It's not by far the main part of that system, it's a nice thing to have.

When that system first started, I could report that for the first week that was up, we had almost four million hits on that. In a province of 900,000 people, that's pretty amazing. It certainly has died down to more like 1,000 hits a week but the rest of that system is based on scheduling and removing duplication of work.

Before that system, the inspectors would go out and they would have to do their work in paper, at the place. Then they would come back to the office maybe a day a week and have to re-input it into an electronic database that we had. So we're hopeful that this system will actually save us a bit of time. It certainly won't create another position but it will give a bit more time to the inspectors in that they will only be entering once.

Now, there are a few little technical glitches that we're working on, this field doesn't look right and all that, but I think we're quite pleased with the performance of that so far.

MADAM CHAIR: Order. The time has expired for the NDP caucus.

I recognize Mr. Glavine for the Liberal caucus, you have 20 minutes.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to all our guests today. Sorry I missed the introduction, I had a little bit of a tough run from the Valley this morning. First of all, one of the areas that I wanted to hear maybe one or two viewpoints on is regarding federal and provincial inspections. This is an area I know, in the Valley area in particular, that we have several processing plants, both large and small, and we have a few federally inspected plants in the province - more, of course, provincially.

Do you see the federal inspection process as superior to the provincial or are they on parallel? We often hear as well, in terms of interprovincial trade, that we have a great product, we'd like to send it off to another province, but that's not possible because it isn't federally inspected. Just for the record, I'd like to hear a little bit about how those are seen. I know among the public, they certainly feel there are differences.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: I'm going to hand that question over to Mr. Horwich, but first I'd like to say, sorry to hear it's bad, I'm going to Kentville after this for a meeting with the horticulture producers.

That's a topical question you asked, I wanted to point that out, that we get many queries of that nature from the agricultural sector, and indeed the Presidents of the Federations of Agriculture were recently asking the Atlantic Ministers about federal versus provincial and interprovincial transference, et cetera. They were wondering whether we could look into that, so it's very topical, but I'd like to pass on to Mr. Horwich for the exact details of what is a very complex situation.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Thank you for the opportunity to address that question. Public health is measured in outcomes, so if we look at the outcome of the federal food inspection

system and the outcome of the provincial food inspection system I would say, in answer to your question, they are on par, they both produce safe food. Their processes are different, their legislation is different, training of the individuals is somewhat similar, but the outcomes are the same. I'm quite comfortable in saying that they're on par for sure.

MR. GLAVINE: I ask that as a start point because could we say here in Nova Scotia that the protocols we currently have in place put us at an advantage position to perhaps avoid what happened at the Toronto plant with the listeriosis outbreak? Are there certain things that we feel pretty strong about that are in place in this province?

MR. HORWICH: Yes, again, I'm happy to answer that question. We have a very good piece of legislation as a framework to do our activities. We have guidelines, policies and regulations that govern our inspection activities and the activities of the plant operators. I would also like to say that we have an individual working within our staff who is in the final stages of obtaining her Master of Food Safety degree from the University of Michigan State. As part of her thesis, she has put together a Nova Scotia guideline for processed foods. Part of this deals with ready-to-eat foods, we've had extensive training for our staff in this area, and we are extending this to industry. So if you asked me in terms of an evaluation if there's anything I'd want extra, I would say no, we are very strong in our area of food protection here in this province.

MR. GLAVINE: During the actual crisis there certainly seemed to be a little bit of a point in time where it didn't seem - at least communicated to the public - what the roles were and what was the role of the provincial government in relation to CFIA.. There seemed to be a couple of weeks there where we weren't sure exactly where we were going. The Department of Agriculture in relation to the CFIA is what I'm looking at.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Montgomerie.

MR. MONTGOMERIE: There are a couple of contexts to that. For example, our timeline shows that when we became aware of the health hazard alert, which was August 19^th, both the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health Promotion and Protection immediately, based upon that alert, based upon our various responsibilities, swung into action.

At HPP, Dr. Strang and his team put together an internal working group and immediately began to communicate - which I believe is in the kits that we gave you - correspondence to doctors, to health institutions and so on, all in support of the Department of Agriculture's activities, it was fairly quick. I revisited press comments starting August 21^st and 22^nd, when Dr. Strang, on a daily basis, began speaking to the media around the symptoms of listeriosis, the reason why we were doing what we were doing, and so on. I could defer to Deputy LaFleche re the Agriculture perspective.

MR. GLAVINE: That's really where I was going, what was the Agriculture Department's role here and how you are relating to CFIA.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: I was going to say again, Mr. Horwich directed that and he'd best answer that, but we have a good relationship with CFIA and we have an understanding of when we would assist them in such an event.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: I believe it was on August 19^th that I received a request from the CFIA to assist them in this recall, with continual contact with members of CFIA for 10 days on this issue, many times a day. The information I received, I disseminated to my staff in the field. The coordination worked quite well. We had publications and I did a lot of media myself, along with Dr. Strang who did the health component of it and I did the recall component of it. We talked and discussed at length with our operators of meat plants the issue of ready-to-eat foods. I think that was the extent of the activities.

MADAM CHAIR: Dr. Strang.

DR. STRANG: From my perspective as Chief Public Health Officer, I had frequent communication with both Mike at the Department of Agriculture and CFIA. I was very comfortable with the level of information we received, my comfort that appropriate steps were being taken in the collaboration between CFIA and Agriculture, that the recall was being complied with, that we were checking and that there was compliance. So I was very comfortable with the level of co-operation between the three agencies.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you. Considering that we do have a Maple Leaf plant in Nova Scotia, did the Department of Health Promotion and Protection or the Department of Agriculture take any special steps to look at the provincial plant here, or did Maple Leaf themselves put extra inspection or safeguards in place?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Although the plant is located in the province, it's under federal jurisdiction. In routine discussions in terms of evaluating what we were doing, it's my understanding CFIA had taken the appropriate precautions and had discussions with those plant operators at that time. I wasn't involved in those discussions, but I'm quite comfortable in what they had advised me.

[9:45 a.m.]

MR. GLAVINE: Just a final little look there in terms of retrospect. Did both departments feel that everything was put in place to keep the public well informed and knowledgeable about what was taking place and personal safeguards that people may need to take on their own responsibility as well, or is there something different now after having gone through this that you would initiate another time? In other words, what was the learning experience, if you wish, for us on this?

MADAM CHAIR: Dr. Strang.

DR. STRANG: I'm very comfortable that the steps that were taken were the right steps and were taken in a timely fashion. There are always things we can do to improve and we're having some ongoing conversations. Mike Horwich and myself have had some ongoing meetings with CFIA just to improve our communication, but there's really nothing if a similar event occurred today, we would take exactly the same steps. I think at the end of the day the fact that we were able to work collaboratively with CFIA, both provincial departments worked very quickly to make sure the recall was being complied with, get appropriate information out to health care providers, the public and other stakeholders. From my perspective things went very well and there's nothing major that I would consider that we would have to change to respond in a future event.

MR. GLAVINE: I was wondering how many cases of listeria we actually have in the province each year. We know that it is not just associated with a one-time national outbreak, listeriosis is there in the midst of us, I guess you might say. I'm just wondering, how many identified cases are there?

DR. STRANG: In your package there is actually a graph showing the number per year, but we typically on average see six to eight cases a year. For 2008, we had two cases in Nova Scotia, neither of which were associated with the outbreak.

MR. GLAVINE: So much associated with meat preparation, perhaps, in particular - and correct me if I'm wrong in that it is heavily weighted toward the meat sector. We know that there is obviously meat consumed in Nova Scotia, there's a lot of small backyard slaughtering that goes on. Is that a worrisome area for the provincial and federal inspection agencies in the province? I know without a doubt that since we are pushing the "buy local" movement very strongly, I would say, in fact, there's a greater exchange now of uninspected meat than perhaps what the province has seen for some time.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: Yes, you've brought up something again which is somewhat topical, given that we are promoting local food. The Act actually provides some guidance on

what we do inspect and what is exempted. Maybe the best thing for me to do is let Mr. Horwich go through that and describe the process of how we make those decisions so that you can see where the public is protected.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: The Act outlines quite clearly that any food products sold through a store, a grocery store, a restaurant, or any other facility that is licensed, would have to be inspected. Prior to that Act there were no such requirements, so there was uninspected meat in grocery stores and smaller places. Once this Act was brought into place, that stopped that activity. What the Act also does is exempt farm-gate sales, that is an individual producer may sell directly to the end-point consumer, so that is allowed for in the Act.

MR. GLAVINE: So is that just a visual inspection or are we actually into some microbiology and examination of meat that is going out to the consumer?

MR. HORWICH: The food that goes to the consumer - maybe I'll just talk about the meat that originates from our provincially inspected abattoirs. There are four main components of that. One is the fact that our inspectors are in place and they have to be in place to witness any slaughter of an animal and the dressing of an animal. They are there for humane slaughter, they do an antemortem inspection - that is, before the animal is slaughtered they check to see that it is healthy. After the slaughter they would check organs and they would check the carcass, generally looking for possibly needle marks for antibiotics or any types of other abnormalities. If they did spot an abnormality, depending on the seriousness of it, they may require a veterinarian to assist them in the final disposition of that carcass.

Our provincial meat inspectors are what we refer to as "experts in normal" so they know exactly what a normal carcass looks like, what a normal organ looks like, what normal glands look like, and they do a very thorough investigation. Should something be identified as abnormal, then they would request a veterinarian, as I had mentioned, or they may send it to a laboratory for further examination.

MR. GLAVINE: I certainly feel very confident with our inspection system here in the province and history is on our side, I think, in saying that. We know there's a lot of boxed meat that will come in from New Zealand and Australia. Can Nova Scotians have the same assurance that it has gone through a rigorous inspection at the slaughterhouse level? I know that it was, I guess, perhaps more in the area of suggestion and wonderment that when we had a mad cow outbreak in Canada, it was probably multiplied many times over in the United States but for some reason we never really had that conclusiveness, however, that there were x number of cases. Should this be a concern with some of the boxed-meat products coming from some other countries?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: The inspection system at the federal level is quite extensive and because of the globalization that we have today, there are mirror systems in other countries. Our country also audits other countries' inspection systems. They go down to the United States, they go to Mexico, they go to Brazil and they check out their inspection systems. Our federal government has the authority to delist any facility from exporting to Canada, so it's a good system in terms of checks and balances. I'm not part of that specific system, as you know. I work within the province but I am aware of it through my national work within Food Safety and with Meat Inspection nationally as well. So yes, I'm comfortable with that.

MR. GLAVINE: I'm just wondering what your viewpoint, as well, would be when we get something like mad cow and listeriosis and yet we have a strong assurance and again support, you know, evidence-based, that our inspection services are doing a great job. Is there reason to have regional protection of our product when we get a national outbreak of some disease? Are we able to separate that product that's produced here in Nova Scotia and not be impacted by what is happening nationally? Are we able to go to that extent and have kind of a regional quarter to keep, for example, our products coming off the shelf and using regional meat products? We all know that mad cow impacted, of course, the whole sector right across the country.

MR. HORWICH: If I understand your question, we have a federal system which allows for interprovincial trade and international trade. We also have various provincial systems which allow for trade within the province. Issues of disease, particularly zoonotics or even diseases which impact animals, don't respect provincial boundaries and it's something that we participate quite strongly with, full participation with the federal government in prevention of disease, whether it's zoonotics or with animal health.

MR. GLAVINE: Because of traceability, I guess is what I was wondering, why do we have these national shutdowns sometimes when we do have a disease outbreak when we're supposed to have greater traceability now than at any point, perhaps, in our food production history?

MADAM CHAIR: Order, the time has expired for the Liberal caucus.

I recognize Mr. Bain for the PC caucus, you have 20 minutes.

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for appearing before the committee this morning. It's certainly, I believe, an education for all of us on the committee, as well, for having this discussion.

I'd like to know how the Nova Scotia Food Safety division compares in relation to other jurisdictions across this country.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Thank you. I'm very pleased to address that question. We have a "pasture to the plate" system, which is we provide inspection at the farm gate for meat products and we run right through a food continuum from processing to food retail to food service and a very, very strong education component of consumers and food handlers, food-handler training.

We have strong legislation. We have authority given to our people in the field to act accordingly if they view that there's a threat to public health. We have an extremely good linkage with our colleagues in Health, Health Promotion and Protection. We have, I would suggest to you and anecdotally, that when I attend federal-provincial meetings Nova Scotia is, I would say, envied by many jurisdictions when I'm talking to my colleagues. They say, you have this, you have great legislation, you have transparency in your inspection system, you have never been cut back in your budget, and you're focused in the area of food protection where other jurisdictions may have individuals working in broad public health.

They're good, generalist public health inspectors but ours are public health inspectors with significant training in food protection. So comparatively, I'm very happy as a bureaucrat, as an administrator, I think we're in good shape.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: Just to add to that - because I think it complements Mr. Glavine's questioning - New Brunswick is just doing today what we did a long time ago in terms of provincial meat inspection. So we've really provided some leadership in the region, and nationally in some areas of food protection.

MR. BAIN: That's certainly great to hear, that we're a leader and we're the envy of other jurisdictions. I think that certainly bodes well for the job that you people are doing.

In order to be a food safety specialist, what are the qualifications that are required?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Our food safety specialists are individuals who have received academic training at one of four or five institutions across Canada, specifically in environmental health or public health inspection. They are also required to sit for a national examination, in which case they have to appear before a board to do an oral examination. They submit reports and there's a written examination.

[10:00 a.m.]

In addition to that, we have built in a requirement that they obtain a certificate as a food safety professional from the National Environmental Health Association in Boulder, Colorado, which gives a higher level of specialty in food protection, and we have an internal training system which is, as I mentioned a little earlier, currently looking at our ready-to-eat foods and our meat processing and food processing. So there's quite an extensive background to become a food safety specialist.

We are fortunate to participate on an advisory committee at Cape Breton University and we discuss with their professors there the need that we have in the field. They respond appropriately in terms of the intelligence that we give them - I've lectured there myself recently - and we have a great crop of students coming and we shouldn't have any problem with succession.

MR. BAIN: So is it safe to say that the food safety specialists in the Province of Nova Scotia, the qualifications are more than the norm would be? Is that a fair thing to say? I know you mentioned the University of Colorado and the specific things that take place there, so it almost seems like they're more qualified than is required - is that a fair assumption?

MR. HORWICH: Well, in terms of food safety, I'm not sure you can have enough qualifications. You can keep going and going. The science is always evolving and we want to ensure that our staff have the appropriate level of support, education and training. But yes, our model is different than other jurisdictions and so it's an - a food analogy here - apples and oranges kind of thing. But yes, I'm quite comfortable that our staff are well trained.

MR. BAIN: So how about a meat inspector? What would the qualifications be if an individual were to be a meat inspector?

MR. HORWICH: Our meat inspectors typically come from two sources. One, they come from the federal system where they have received extensive on-the-job training in meat inspection under a veterinarian who has also received meat inspection training. The latest ones that we've hired usually have degrees in animal science and they receive training, as well, from veterinarians with us and through the administrator position.

MR. BAIN: You mentioned earlier that the Food Safety division, in answer to Mr. Wilson's question, is adequately financed and you mentioned in your other remarks that sometimes it's the envy because you never have problems at budget time. Would you do anything different? This is a pretty broad question to ask, but would you do anything different than what you're doing now in the food safety aspect of it?

MR. HORWICH: I don't think I would. In terms of being the administrator and being placed in that position, that is a serious position of trust, the design that we have put forward

and recommended to government has only been enhanced by other input that has never been cut back. The training that we do both internally and externally is great, we want to modify behaviour in terms of appreciating food safety practices more at the home and in facilities. We have tremendous legislation, regulation, authority in the field, transparency, guidelines, training opportunities. No, I wouldn't do anything different, quite honestly.

MR. BAIN: That's good to hear, as well. Before I turn it over to my colleague, Madam Chair, I'm going to ask another question. What can we do to prevent another outbreak of listeriosis in the future?

MR. HORWICH: We have to keep up our guard and continue to do what we are doing. Listeria is a pathogen, which means it's a disease-causing bacteria, it has unique characteristics. But salmonella is also a disease-causing bacteria, staphylococcus, E. coli, those types of things. The way to combat those is through education, regulation, sanitizing, keeping up with our inspections, enforcement if someone doesn't keep the bow in the direction it should be going, that's where we have to be vigilant.

Many bacteria pathogens are referred to as ubiquitous, that means they're everywhere, so you can never let down your guard. We have to continually address the issues of sanitation, personal hygiene and education. As long as we do that, we're in good shape. The moment we drop our guard, the moment we're bragging that we're doing a really good job because there haven't been any problems, there will be. So we have to keep up, that's what we have to do, sir.

MR. BAIN: Thank you for that. I'll turn it over to my colleague.

MADAM CHAIR: I recognize Mr. Muir, you have until 10:15 a.m.

MR. JAMES MUIR: Madam Chair, I just want to begin by saying that I want to congratulate the team across the floor on how well they responded to that listeriosis last summer. Certainly, I think Nova Scotians were very confident in the way that we dealt with it here in Nova Scotia. I also just want to note that with the establishment of the Department of Health Promotion and Protection, we've got kind of a double-barrelled thing. It's interesting to see other provinces now lining up to take a look at this model that we have in our province.

I just want to say two things: I think that our model is pretty effective; and secondly, I think those who were on the front lines responded very well last summer, and I want to thank you for that. I can tell you, as an MLA on the ground, I had not one call in my office or any criticism of how our province responded last summer, so I just wanted to tell you that. You probably don't get a whole lot of compliments, it's like being an MLA, but I think you deserve one in that.

I've got a couple of questions though, and I just want to tell you that I can go back in history. At one time I did a little backyard slaughtering myself, it was a summer job and I'm not sure if we would have passed today's inspection standards, to be quite frank, I think it was pretty crude.

Two things, and I guess this one would go to Mr. Horwich. If meat is sold here in Nova Scotia - following up on Mr. Glavine's question - if somebody sells meat it has to be inspected, is that correct? If you're at farm gate and you happen to have a slaughterhouse and you're selling it to my colleague here then it has to be inspected, is that correct?

MR. HORWICH: No. There's an exemption under the Meat Inspection Act that allows for farm-gate sales directly from the producer to the consumer. That producer can cut that meat up and sell it directly to that particular individual for final consumption. Any meat that is sold within a store has to be inspected and that originates - I think it was 1996, that was the Meat Inspection Act.

If I may, just as a little bit of history on that, I happened to be seconded from the Department of Environment to the Department of Agriculture at that time to address this issue of meat inspection. There was extensive consultation done with the industry, with the public and community groups and, I might add, political Parties, to arrive at a mandatory Meat Inspection Act. A recommendation was made to government and that Act passed unanimously through the House.

MR. MUIR: Secondly, some number of years ago there used to be, I think, provincial inspectors and that particular role was absorbed by federal inspectors. I'm not exactly sure what it was, but I actually had a friend who was a provincial inspector, he worked in the whale plant down there in Blandford when it operated. Then the provincial government, through some arrangement with the federal government, gave up that role. Can you tell me what that was?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Muise.

MR. MUISE: It may have been on the fish side. If you go back into the 1980s and 1970s, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, Inspection Branch, was the precursor to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, mostly in our province because we're such a strong fish province. In the 1980s, the provincial government also started fish inspection because at the time the federal government was concerned with export and they defined export as leaving the province, crossing a provincial boundary not a national boundary.

I remember there were discussions at the time, well, aren't Nova Scotians just as important as, say, New Brunswickers? So in theory, the fish that went to New Brunswick was inspected but the fish that stayed in Nova Scotia, not necessarily. I believe at the time the province put more or less a duplicate system in place and then as budget problems came

about and the Food Inspection Agency was formed, and a whole bunch of other things happened in the mid 1980s, late 1980s, those two processes sort of melted together.

The fish inspectors that we have now do not go in the plants per se and inspect product as it's coming off the line. They inspect the fact that they are licensed, the buying part of things, the aquaculture industry, et cetera, so that may be what you're referring to.

MR. MUIR: I think I was backward. The federal government had the role, the provincial government took it over from them, and I think that's the question you just answered.

MR. MUISE: And it was in fish - I'm not so sure on the meat side, I don't think so.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: I didn't get to finish my opening statement but in it was the fact that under Part II of the Health Protection Act, and under the Meat Inspection Act, there are inspectors officially named in the Act and the minister actually appoints those inspectors. So we do have these inspectors and they work for Mr. Horwich, who is legally the administrator.

MR. MUIR: Actually, I remember having some correspondence from him about two years ago over something. I was quite surprised - interesting story which happens sometimes.

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to ask about was - and this probably is through the Department of Agriculture, or perhaps Health Promotion and Protection - in-service for those people. Do you spend a lot of time on in-service for those who are in the handling foods, producing foods, preparing foods for safety?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Yes, absolutely. We have a very strong education component with our Nova Scotia food handler training program. We train probably in the vicinity of - I think it was 5,000 people last year. We also focus on volunteer agencies and volunteer groups, where we would go out and offer our services. They may have a monthly meeting and we would contact them and say, would you like one of our food safety specialists to come out and just talk in general terms about food safety? There are many community groups that put on meals within the community for fundraisers and we have addressed this issue. So yes, we have a very, very, strong system.

MR. MUIR: The role of the Nova Scotia Agricultural College in food safety - I notice the food course at CBU, what about the AC, what's its role?

MR. HORWICH: The AC trains individuals in animal science so more of the individuals coming out of that stream are at the production level, as opposed to the retail level and the public health level which is done at Cape Breton University. So we also have discussions with the professors there, instructors, in terms of general food safety and they've been supportive. I think there's a recognition that there's a food continuum that requires various players to be involved in food safety, and the NSAC plays a role in that.

MR. MUIR: One more question. We've been talking about live things - I want to talk about feed plants, do you deal with those?

MR. HORWICH: I'm sorry, I missed that.

MR. MUIR: Feed plants.

MR. HORWICH: No, we do not.

MR. MUIR: Who does that?

MR. HORWICH: The federal government.

MR. MUIR: The federal government.

MR. HORWICH: Yes, the federal government does feed plants.

MR. MUIR: Thank you.

[10:15 a.m.]

MADAM CHAIR: The time has expired for the PC caucus. The next round of questions will be short, 10 minutes per caucus.

I recognize Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Thank you, Madam Chair. I can't believe Mr. Horwich's answer, when a government member asks you if you want anything more that you say you're happy. (Laughter) I mean that was your chance, I think, but anyway. I was looking down at him and you didn't even look over to see what you should have said, but anyway.

I'd like to go back to the inspections, of course, and the listeriosis outbreak. We know that the contaminant was through the meat process, through Maple Leaf. So our inspectors here in Nova Scotia, they look at or inspect long-term care facilities. We know, from the deaths that occurred across the country that it was a high number of seniors, those individuals

who have medical conditions, who have maybe a weakened immune system, who were sick or who got sick, and some of them actually passed away from eating contaminated meat.

When, at the height of the listeriosis outbreak, did you increase the number of inspections to, say, long-term care facilities and daycares, for example, because the kids also are at high risk? So did you increase the number of inspections to these facilities in Nova Scotia?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: During this food recall we visited or contacted all the facilities to determine whether or not the suspected foods were destroyed on-site or the status of them. Where we visited, we took the opportunity to inspect but the inspection would have been very specific, related to the recall. If I may put my glasses on, my 50-year-old eyes aren't what they should be. We've got homes for special care and nursing homes and hospitals, about 154 in the province, and we contacted those people and visited to ensure that the product wasn't in place.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Okay, that's good. Are you confident that all those facilities - because we know some of them are struggling to make ends meet with the high cost of energy and operating costs - are you confident that those facilities have the resources themselves, the individuals in those facilities, to look at the requests from government, to ensure that we do have an inventory of the food that we bought, that we do have an inventory of whatever medication we give, in case there's a recall on that down the road? So are you confident they have the resources and that the facilities that provide services driven by government departments and agencies, that they have the resources and ability to make sure they're following the compliances of the rules and regulations?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Yes, what we did was something called effectiveness checks. So these facilities should, first of all, be notified by their supplier. Our role was to determine, did the supplier notify you, did they give you the correct information, and was it done in a timely fashion? The vast majority of them were notified and it was done in a timely fashion.

There were products that were found that may have been purchased outside the regular purchasing regime of that institution and brought in, particularly in smaller places. We had to focus on those and discuss those activities.

The response we had generally was no. The response that we had overwhelmingly, I would say, was yes, we recognize the seriousness of this issue; yes, we recognize that we are a facility, in terms of hospitals, homes for special care and nursing homes, that would be more susceptible, our clientele would be more susceptible to an outbreak of listeriosis.

Listeria is a very opportunistic bacteria, as you mentioned in your remarks, and it would strike the individuals with compromised systems, pregnant women, and I think that is one of the pieces of education that they picked up on very quickly. That's why we put our resources to these particular high-risk facilities.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Have you made recommendations in those areas or those facilities that might have had an opportunity to have something come from outside its normal purchasing area, I guess? Have you made recommendations or ensured that they're aware of the potential dangers and stuff?

I know, Dr. Strang might have a comment, I think, on that also.

MR. HORWICH: Yes, we have talked to them about issues surrounding ready-to-eat products for those individuals.

MADAM CHAIR: Dr. Strang.

DR. STRANG: I just wanted to add, because of the nature of the outbreak, as you pointed out, involving seniors' serious illness, my office took the additional step, which we wouldn't normally do in a food recall. I also wrote to and, with the co-operation of the Department of Health, Continuing Care branch, had distributed a letter to administrators of all long-term care facilities, pointing out to them the recall, where they could get information and asking them to make sure that any product they had was removed from their kitchen. So we did that additional step because of the high-risk nature of this outbreak.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): A quick question, how often are long-term care facilities inspected? I may have read it but I just - so how often are they inspected by an inspector?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Sorry, I get excited sometimes, especially when I know the answer. (Laughter) They are inspected three times a year.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So I'd like to turn back to the numbers again and the resources. Of course you had stated in a previous question that you feel you're adequately staffed right now but I still go back to the numbers. You mentioned 10,000 inspections - 24 inspectors, I think, for that inspection number. I did the math while you were on the other questions - about 416 inspections per inspector. On top of that, the paperwork they do, the record-keeping they need to do to make sure that they satisfy government programs like the reporting on-line and stuff like that. Still, with that number, I think about 416 cases, if I'm an inspector I know in the next year I have to inspect 416 places. Are you confident again, are you still confident that you have the appropriate number of inspectors

and the resources to make sure that we're doing everything we can to keep the safety of Nova Scotians at hand?

MR. HORWICH: Yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): All right.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Muise wants a piece of that question.

MR. MUISE: I can't pass this up the second time around. The individual cost centres for these two functions are running a deficit and if you combine all of this work together, it's in the vicinity of $100,000 to $150,000 a year. However, as I said earlier, the services never suffered because of that, because we make this a priority and we do have plans in place and we get the money from other areas.

As Mike mentioned in his statement, we received two new workers two years ago, I believe in 2007, we received an administrative spot last year, plus we have this new database. I guess the answer to your question is today we feel comfortable. Could we always use more? The Halifax Regional Municipality is the unknown here because it's growing so much. Probably at some point down the road, if Halifax keeps growing at the rate it's growing, we're going to come here and say yes, we need two more for Halifax. The rest of the province, really, there's not a terribly big change in population and if anything, in some areas unfortunately, it's going in the opposite direction, so our caseloads are there.

The other thing I'd like to say is, I worked the first half of my career as a fisheries officer with DFO. Our inspectors and these food safety kids - I call them kids because most of them are half my age - their workload is tremendous, it's unbelievable compared to other areas. As you said, they can do 400 inspections a day. These kids are not hanging around the office and having coffee and that's not true in every organization, believe me, so we're quite proud - I know I am - of their ability to crank this out, and their seriousness and their professionalism is something that amazes me almost every day. I know where you're coming from on this because if you narrow it down to 180, or so, workdays a year, plus your training and administration, they actually are doing four or five inspections every day that they're out there.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I know I only have a few seconds and I agree, I've met many of them and know a few and they work extremely hard, so we appreciate the work that they do on behalf of the province.

We have the recognition or ability as consumers in Nova Scotia to look at restaurants for the inspections. Our beef inspectors, for example, are you considering or are you possibly looking at reporting inspections of larger facilities like beef plants, or other facilities, so that consumers can have a choice?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: I think with the new database system that we have, that possibility exists. We haven't examined that fully. We want to do one step at a time and felt that the restaurant and food retail area was the one that generated the most publicity, that may be the most effective for the public to get that transparency, but down the road I wouldn't discount that possibility, sir.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, the time has expired for the NDP caucus. I recognize Mr. Colwell.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you very much. First of all I want to state that I have a great respect for the staff that you have in the field doing the inspections and I know they do their job very, very well. As a result of that we see very few problems in Nova Scotia and I want to commend your staff and yourself and your department for doing that.

Fortunately, the listeria problem didn't result in any deaths in Nova Scotia, but the circumstances could have been different and I realize that it's mostly the responsibility of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. You were just talking about restaurant safety and I've noticed it personally, going to restaurants now, that most of the staff in the restaurants, the waitresses in particular, will pick a glass up by the rim, like this, all the time and hand it to you after they've handled money at the cash register. I know that's not supposed to be happening, but I've seen that in many, many restaurants and been a victim of that happening, I assume that's where the problem was, as have people I've known.

Now, for me it wasn't a long-term problem, or for people that I know, but if it was a senior citizen who was susceptible to a problem with bacterial infection, it would be very serious. I just didn't notice this once, I've noticed it many times in restaurants all over the province. What steps are taken to train staff not to do these sort of things because if they're doing this, what's happening in the kitchen?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: We have a requirement in the regulation that one person be trained, per shift, in proper food handling techniques and they can receive that training from us or from a private organization, so they would learn not to do that. We also view that as a "train the trainer" type of situation.

The industry that we have here in Nova Scotia, in terms of the retail end of the food service industry, is very responsible and they recognize that there are issues like that. The industry itself is stressed in terms of getting individuals to work, it's not a high-paying job and there's significant turnover. The challenge of training individuals in proper food handling is always there.

As I said to Mr. Bain, we have to be vigilant, we have to constantly maintain our food-handler training, education, expand it. We have looked at various ways of doing that and it's always a challenge. Food safety is a shared responsibility between government, industry and the consumer, and we are vigilant with it. Hopefully, you'll see less and less of this type of thing in the future.

MR. COLWELL: It is a concern and I realize it's very difficult. I don't think that the staff does it intentionally, I think it's probably because the training wasn't made available to them for whatever reason, or they don't take it seriously enough to realize exactly what can happen in that situation, especially if someone has a weak immune system. So what particular steps are you taking to ensure this happens - I mean I realize it's impossible to train everybody in every restaurant to do all of these things, but it's important that this is done somehow.

I realize, too, after running a business myself, how difficult it is to train staff when you're trying to manage everyday business and survive through the process, and get staff there who are courteous, capable, and the wage rate typically isn't very high in a restaurant. How in the long term are you going to approach this because it seems to be getting worse instead of better?

[10:30 a.m.]

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: Maybe I can start on that and Mr. Horwich will follow up on what exactly he is doing in the food protection branch. As you know, I used to have responsibility for the culinary and hospitality training at the Nova Scotia Community College for many years. I can assure you in those programs we did train people properly in how to provide food service in restaurant establishments, because that's what you're really talking about here - it's not so much the preparation, it's the actual table service. I will be talking to Dean Walsh as a follow-up to that, and maybe you and I can have a meeting with him. That doesn't cover everybody but it does cover the people who are sort of the head service people in many of our restaurants, they would be graduates from there. I think that's an important place where we have to start and we are doing that.

I also appreciate your comments about our staff, but I wish to point out that in many cases, although we would like to take credit for managing, developing and training our staff, we also have to thank Cape Breton University and the excellent education and training they receive in that program. Training and education in our institutions and doing that properly is a big part of getting a workforce that works as hard as ours does and does such a good job. Mike, would you like to take the second half of that question?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: Specifically, one of the aspects of inspection when our staff go into a facility is to determine whether or not someone has received the appropriate training. If not, that's a regulatory violation. That is placed as a requirement or deficiency that they would have to get corrected.

Secondly, they do take time to observe - and they're not really popular when they're doing this - they do take time to observe proper food handling both in the kitchen and at the serving level. They will point out things, as you mentioned. The regulatory requirement is a significant step.

In addition to that, I have a lot - and it's hard to characterize "a lot" - but I have substantial contact with both the Restaurant Association of Nova Scotia and the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association, in discussing proper food-handler training and their initiatives, as associations within this province, to address that issue.

As I mentioned before, staffing is an issue. As you acknowledged, it is an issue. We are looking at expanding our training, not only in the professional ranks but in the voluntary areas, as well as in community groups. So regrettably, your experience has been you've seen it increasing. I would suggest, from my knowledge, it's not increasing but it's getting better.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, and I hope your experience is better than mine - I'm sure it is. I'm not saying that the industry isn't doing a good job, I'm not saying that anybody isn't doing a good job here. I think it's just a matter of training. I know if I went to be a food server for the first time and I'm on the job for the first day and I didn't receive the training, for whatever reason, what to look for, I would probably have done the same thing if I didn't know. I think probably that's a problem and in a very busy atmosphere it's sometimes very easy to overlook that small detail, but that small detail can cause a lot of problems for a lot of people if it's not corrected.

I realize your inspectors do a terrific job. I've never got a complaint - well, except sometimes they figured someone will call up and say look, they're too hard on me. As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as being too hard when you're doing inspections, you have to do them properly. I've never had a complaint, ever, in all the years I've been elected, from any inspector not doing their job properly. I say that's a lot of credit for the department that does that.

I think it's an issue, it's an issue that's very difficult to address. I know you work on it on a regular basis and I don't know what the answer is. Maybe everybody that goes in there has to have a short training session, just simple things that they have to do, to do that. Maybe it's a half-hour or an hour that they have to go through and say you don't do this, you don't do this and you don't do this, and then someone just sort of checks within the establishment that, indeed, that doesn't happen. Is there any move to look at something like that, or insist that the restaurants do that, or food-service establishments?

MR. HORWICH: Yes, I was a bit remiss in just giving you one part of the regulations which says there has to be one person trained in a recognized course in food-handler training. The second part of that regulation is, and it puts the onus right on industry, that anyone working within the facility has to be trained to the level required to handle food properly. Now, whether that be the dishwasher or someone serving food or taking cash, if they're dealing with food they have to be trained to the appropriate level to do that job safely, and that is also a regulatory requirement.

When we discussed this with industry, we felt it was something we would work on together in terms of future training courses. It could be done in-house by the manager, depending on the size of the facility as well. The operators also say, well, as you have pointed out, sir, there are other forces at work here, they also have to be trained in WHMIS, they have to be trained in first-aid. There's all kinds of other training that employers are required to do.

I try to say that food handling is more important, but I'm sure someone from the Department of Labour would say WHMIS is more important. So it's a challenge and we're only talking to the one manager at the time, but the onus certainly is on that person.

So our regulations are there and they are enabling and allowing us to address your concern in the future, and currently we are doing that as well.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. Order, the time has expired for the Liberal caucus.

I recognize Mr. Porter for the PC caucus, you have 10 minutes.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome to those of you who are back again and those who are maybe here for the first time. I think I've seen most all of you here on more than one occasion, but it's nice to have you here today on an important topic.

I just want to pick up where Mr. Colwell left off, briefly, a point of clarity on a question with regard to food handling. I know a lot of community halls, fire departments, churches, et cetera, that all do these things, is there not a requirement out there that those people as well - I mean there's no food handling going on that hasn't been trained. So a church group - or a fire department may even be a better example - they host banquets, they prepare food, different organizations like that, volunteer groups. The people I talk to tell me they had to go take food training. Maybe they did that on their own but I was of the opinion that was something that was mandated somewhere along the line - no?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Horwich.

MR. HORWICH: No, that isn't particularly mandated, that is exempt in our regulations. However, that is a very, very strong area, or an area that we strongly believe that

our education piece is effective in. We're very proactive in contacting these community groups and asking, can we come in and talk to you, may we come in? Our staff are members of community groups, they're just not food safety specialists and they know and they impart their knowledge and they say look, this is a good thing in terms of reducing liabilities that you have someone trained.

We have a three-hour course that we put on for volunteer groups. At the end of the course we give each of the attendees a certificate of attendance. It's a very positive aspect of the job of the food safety specialists, because typically at the end of the evening they get a round of applause and not a lot of people, as we acknowledge, get a lot of applause in their jobs. They're welcomed back and it's great because they get questions in the future and there's that barrier between the public and government, which is a false barrier, has really been broken down and you see we're in it for the same thing - the consumer needs food safety, industry supports food safety, government supports food safety. So it's really important and we do address that.

MR. PORTER: Okay, thanks for that clarity. The reason I bring it up, I know at home many organizations have all - I guess I just thought it was mandatory because of the number that have gone through and are doing the job for the public safety. It's good to hear that there are a number of groups coming forward and I'm sure it's more than just my area that's doing that.

Just a couple of quick questions, I know our time is fairly short. Understanding, you know, listeriosis had a huge impact in this country, basically managed from a federal perspective, Canadian food industry, the federal government and so on, we never had any in Nova Scotia that obviously we're aware of. What if it was an incident in Nova Scotia because of this, or some other type, what would our place be as the Nova Scotia Government, or Nova Scotia in general, how would it be managed - in conjunction federally? Would we have a say? Would it be mostly run in the federal jurisdiction? How much input would we really have when it came right down to it?

MADAM CHAIR: Dr. Strang.

DR. STRANG: Well, from the human health aspect, it's provincial jurisdiction. It's our responsibility to work with our colleagues in Public Health, to work with our colleagues on the care provision side. We did this in this outbreak to make sure that physicians and other care providers had the right information about what to look for. Our laboratories, through our Public Health lab network, had the right information to do the appropriate tests. So we were prepared if we had human illness. I don't know if that's answering your question.

MR. PORTER: Somewhat. So just for clarity then, Dr. Strang, you had - and that was kind of leading into the next part of my question - there were meetings with ER staff and hospital administration, or whoever those people in the right places were at the right levels -

how far did that go in preparation if, in fact, Nova Scotia did have a case? Did we have a comfort level that we knew what to do with it, how to treat it, timely, et cetera, where would it go, quarantines and all of those such things, if that were necessary?

DR. STRANG: In this case it was really making sure written information was sent to every physician in the province, to make sure they knew the types of symptoms to look for. From there, there's nothing special about treating somebody with listeriosis, with severe complications, than anything else. It's really up to them and their clinical knowledge from that point.

With a disease like listeriosis there would be no need for quarantines or whatever, but we certainly have those provisions in the Health Protection Act. Through our work with the Department of Health around an all-hazards approach, and included in that is pandemic influenza, we're much better prepared to deal with, for instance, a large infectious disease outbreak of various kinds.

MR. PORTER: Thank you and I think you've answered part of my next question. So you sent out some written information to all the physicians. Did that include hospital administrators, to make sure that it got down to ER workers, nurses, other doctors maybe who don't have offices - I'm not sure how many of those are around in the province. That's part of the question and I'll let you answer that first, maybe.

DR. STRANG: We have a mechanism that if necessary, we send either via e-mail, fax, or sometimes putting in hospital mailboxes to every physician in the province. We also send it to every district health authority - they have a VP of medicine who is in charge of clinical care, as well as a VP of acute care, so we send it those routes as well and ask them to distribute it throughout their organization. It would have gone beyond physicians to other clinical folks as well.

Part of the discussions we had through this, as we have in many outbreaks, is with infection control people. Now, the Department of Health is staffing up an infection control unit, and they then disseminated information to infection control practitioners and district health authorities as well.

MR. PORTER: Did we have any responses to all of the correspondence that you sent out? Did any of those folks you just described write back looking for anything more, did they feel that was adequate, or was there just no response in general?

DR. STRANG: We didn't get a response, we don't typically look for a response. I did have discussions with our infectious disease colleagues who had input into the content and they were very satisfied with the level of content there, that it was clear, it was understandable. We looked to them from a clinical perspective - does this make sense, is what we're sending out to you and your colleagues, is that going to work for you, are you

going to be able to pick this up and take this and know what to do? - and that's why we include them as part of that process. They were very comfortable with the information that went out.

MR. PORTER: Just again then for clarity, in your professional opinion, Nova Scotians, physicians, et cetera, do you feel there's a comfort level in this province that if such a case were to happen - and I know that we've had other various influenzas and all the things you've talked about come to this province, like every other province in this country and many others - do you feel there's a comfort level in Nova Scotia that we are able to handle such a case, if we were to have something like listeriosis or any other disease that could potentially seriously impact the people in this province?

[10:45 a.m.]

DR. STRANG: Yes, I do. We have lots of experience with a range of outbreaks of infectious diseases, from food-borne illness to, almost 20 years ago, meningococcal disease. We're growing our capacity in the health system around pandemic influenza, which would be the most severe end of the spectrum. I'm very comfortable with our experience, our knowledge and our capacity to deal with infectious disease outbreaks of all types.

MR. PORTER: And just in a former life, I was a paramedic, spent a lot of years in the streets, as I know one of my colleagues in this House has done, as well, and perhaps he's asked this question. I'm kind of curious, being a front-line worker, we've talked about where that information went, the doctors, the VPs, et cetera. We have one corporate entity in this province, EMC, that runs an ambulance service, EHS - did that get down to that level so that these folks knew what they were looking for when they were picking up certain individuals with certain sicknesses or ailments?

DR. STRANG: We didn't in this case specifically direct it to paramedics. There are no special cautions, nothing they would do differently. They wouldn't get a call to pick up Mrs. X with listeriosis, they'd get a call where Mrs. X may be in a long-term care facility and is severely ill. They would follow normal procedures, including infection control procedures, which would absolutely cover them for an illness like listeriosis. Something different where there would be a need for special precautions, absolutely there would be different routes of communication.

MADAM CHAIR: Order, the time has expired now for the rounds of questions.

I'd invite our deputies, if they want to make some brief final remarks, to do so at this time. Mr. Montgomerie.

MR. MONTGOMERIE: We thank you for the opportunity, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. Mr. LaFleche.

MR. LAFLECHE: I think it's important that we had this opportunity and that the public gets educated in this area, so thank you very much.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you for being here today. This concludes this portion of our meeting. The clerk will circulate correspondence that we have received and there is one item I would like to raise with members of the committee.

In our last meeting here on the - yes, Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, maybe our guests don't have to stay for this if they want to go.

MADAM CHAIR: Certainly, thank you.

As I was saying, at our last meeting on December 10^th, we approved a list of witnesses to invite before the committee. The clerk has received back a response from the clerk to the Premier, from Mr. Fowler - you will see the correspondence - declining the invitation to appear in front of Public Accounts to discuss the most recent provincial financial update. I wanted to draw this to the attention of the members and ask you for some direction with respect to this response. Mr. Steele.

MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a motion that I would like to put to the committee and perhaps I will read it first and then explain the reasons why I hope my colleagues on the committee will support it.

The motion I would make is as follows: I move that the Public Accounts Committee direct the Chair to write to the Premier and the Minister of Finance requesting again that they appear voluntarily before the Public Accounts Committee and informing them that if they do not appear voluntarily that the Public Accounts Committee will consider issuing subpoenas to compel their appearance.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. The motion is in order.

MR. STEELE: The reason for that, Madam Chair, is simply that we have this unusual situation where the House adjourned at the end of November and based on recent comments of the Premier, it looks as if it will not reconvene until perhaps the beginning of June. So we have a six-month period in which the House is not sitting, in which there will be no new forecast update. I don't know if all members know, the next forecast update traditionally is delivered on the same day as the budget, so the supposed quarterly update will again go for nearly six months without being issued.

Although the Premier controls the timing of the House, he does not control the timing of this committee, and we just think it's important that a space be created to discuss the financial position of the province. It is rather distasteful, I think, for this committee to propose issuing a subpoena to the sitting Premier. That is why my motion is not to issue such a subpoena but simply to invite them to appear voluntarily, and if they do not then we would consider issuing a subpoena. I do think it's important that we not let this drop.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Hebb.

MR. GORDON HEBB: I'd like to advise the committee that I do not believe the committee has power to subpoena a member of the House. The only way to force a member of the House to appear would be through a motion of the House itself.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Steele, then Mr. Colwell.

MR. STEELE: We have had sitting members of the House appear before this committee before and I know that in Ottawa and in other provinces it is perfectly routine to have sitting Cabinet Ministers, even Premiers, appearing before committees of the House. So that's why I think it's necessary to invite them voluntarily and I think the question of what our powers are is something that can be explored later because really, I don't expect them to persist in declining to appear voluntarily. What I would suggest is that's interesting advice, although I know in other provinces and federally they routinely appear, so let's cross that bridge later, if and when we get another refusal from the Premier and the Minister of Finance.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: I agree with the motion that's put there. It's unfortunate the member didn't give us copies prior to that, because he had raised that issue before when one of my colleagues put a motion and did not provide it to the House, but I do agree with it. I think the motion should probably, based on Mr. Hebb's advice, be amended to take out the part about the subpoena. I think it's important that the Premier and Minister of Finance come and explain what the situation is.

The situation in the U.S., which will affect Canada and has already started to affect Canada, is grave. I'm not sure that it hasn't started to affect Nova Scotia already, and only the Minister of Finance and the Premier would know that for sure. It would be very interesting to see exactly where we stand financially. I'm very concerned about not hearing about this until next June, possibly maybe until after an election, which raises some very serious issues for Nova Scotians. So we would be in favour of that, but I'd like to maybe ask the member if he would take out the part about the subpoena at this point. We can review what course of action we can take after that, which we're not opposed to, but I think we want to make sure that we have everything in order as we move forward with this.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Muir.

MR. MUIR: I think I can say quite clearly that we don't support this and indeed, I believe it is out of order. I think Mr. Hebb has ruled on this, or at least has given good advice. To bring the Premier and the Minister of Finance before the Public Accounts Committee because you are unhappy that the House is not in at a particular time is, to me - I think you're playing crass politics and I'm sure that's not the place of this committee.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Steele with respect to Mr. Colwell's point about amending the motion.

MR. STEELE: I want to remind all the members that my motion says that if they decline that we will consider issuing subpoenas, and at that point we can get into a discussion with Mr. Hebb about what powers we do and don't have. I just remind the member for Truro-Bible Hill that Legislative Counsel doesn't make rulings, he gives the committee advice which the committee then considers.

The reason I put in the bit about considering issuing subpoenas is that the Premier and the Minister of Finance need to know that if they continue to say no, we're not just going to let the matter drop, that we will examine what powers we have and use them if necessary. So if you take that bit out all that's left is asking them again which seems to me not entirely pointless, but fairly pointless.

So what I'll do then, if that's what it's going to take for the motion to pass, is withdraw the motion and the motion now will end after the words "Public Accounts Committee." So again for the members, maybe I could read it again?

MADAM CHAIR: Before you do that, Mr. Colwell has indicated he'd like to speak and so has Mr. Muir. Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: I wouldn't be opposed to having some form of action taken if they don't appear here, I think we should just take out the subpoena part. Maybe the member could change his motion to indicate that further action will be taken by the committee at that point, if they refuse to come.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Muir and then Mr. Steele.

MR. MUIR: If I'm not mistaken, we had a financial update less than 30 days ago and I'm not sure that we need another one next week. That's why I think I'm not so sure that the member for Halifax Fairview and the member for Preston are particularly interested in the finances as much as they are interested in political posturing.

MADAM CHAIR: A point of clarification. Mr. Muir, I recognize you weren't part of the committee back in December when we had the discussion and we passed this particular item. Just for your information, we weren't looking for a new financial update. We were looking for an opportunity, as members of the House, to ask questions of the Premier, and of the Minister of Finance, with respect to the financial statement which, in fact, as of December 10^th still had not been released. It was released, as you know, on the eve of Christmas, when the House wasn't in session and members have not really had an opportunity to examine in any detail that financial statement. So that's just for clarification. Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: I'd like to thank the members for the discussion. I withdraw the motion I introduced earlier and submit the following revision:

Moved that the Public Accounts Committee direct the Chair to write to the Premier and Minister of Finance, requesting again that they appear voluntarily before the Public Accounts Committee and informing them that if they do not appear voluntarily, that the Public Accounts Committee will seek advice concerning its authority to compel their attendance.

MADAM CHAIR: The motion is in order. Is there any further discussion on the motion? Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: The motion, I feel, is a very good motion at this point. I'm a little bit disturbed by the member from the PC caucus who indicates that this may be political. He is a former member of Cabinet and if there are some problems with the finances of the province that would make this political, I'd be very interested in hearing about them. But this is information that the committee has a right to get and we have to ask the right people to come here, and that's all we are doing.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. Hearing no further discussion, I would put the question to the members.

Would all those in favour of the motion - the second motion that has been amended - please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

We will have our next meeting next week with the Department of Environment and at this point we stand adjourned. Thank you.

[The committee adjourned at 10:58 a.m.]