HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

Ms. Maureen MacDonald (Chair)

Mr. Chuck Porter (Vice-Chairman)

Mr. Patrick Dunn

Mr. Keith Bain

Mr. Graham Steele

Mr. David Wilson (Sackville-Cobequid)

Mr. Keith Colwell

Mr. Leo Glavine

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Mr. Manning MacDonald replaced Ms. Diana Whalen]

WITNESSES

Trade Centre Limited

Mr. Frederick MacGillivray, President & Chief Executive Officer

Hon. Stewart McInnes, Chairman, Trade Centre Limited Board of Directors

Mr. Don Larlee, Vice-President, Finance

Ms. Colette Curran, Vice-President, Human Resources and Payroll

Ms. Nina Kressler, Vice-President, Sales & Marketing

Mr. Scott Ferguson, Executive Vice-President

In Attendance:

Ms. Sherri Mitchell

Legislative Committees Office

Ms. Kim Leadley

Legislative Committees Office

Mr. Jacques Lapointe

Auditor General

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Chief Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2008

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

9:00 A.M.

CHAIR

Ms. Maureen MacDonald

VICE-CHAIRMAN

Mr. Chuck Porter

MADAM CHAIR: Good morning, I would like to call the committee to order. Today we have with us witnesses from Trade Centre Limited. We will begin in our usual fashion with introductions by the members and the Auditor General and staff, as well as our witnesses. This will allow Legislative Television to know where everybody is sitting - we have a few substitutions on the caucus side. Then we will have a brief opening statement from Mr. MacGillivray and this will be followed by the first round of questions.

[The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much and welcome. Mr. MacGillivray, the floor is now yours.

MR. FREDERICK MACGILLIVRAY: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to be here with you today to share with you some opening comments.

The Crown Corporation, Trade Centre Limited, is a unique events-hosting model that began in 1984. Trade Centre Limited has since grown into seven operating units, including Halifax Metro Centre, Exhibition Park, World Trade and Convention Centre, our Trade Centre office tower, Events Halifax, Ticket Atlantic and, of course, the World Trade Centre of Atlantic Canada.

Its record of achievement is its reputation as an economic engine for Nova Scotia. This past fiscal year of 2006-07, TCL welcomed 787,631 visitors into our many facilities. These visitors were responsible for injecting approximately $170 million in direct expenditures to our local economy that particular year. That translated into about 3,465 person-years of employment, $79 million in addition to household income and a little over $7 million in government tax revenue.

Trade Centre has been a significant economic engine for Nova Scotia for many decades, but now we face new challenges that severely impact our bottom line - aging facilities, such as Exhibition Park and the World Trade and Convention Centre that are now a quarter of a century old, as well as our Metro Centre which is 30 years old and incurring high costs for maintenance and upkeep on an annual basis.

It is also challenging to compete with larger, newer facilities that offer state of the art venues that can accommodate larger crowds with efficient public transportation. In addition to the infrastructure challenges, Trade Centre is a tourism product that has been impacted by a weak American currency, high cost of crude oil which weighs heavily on transportation from the U.S. and other parts around the world that come here by car, rail or air.

Moving forward through these challenges to continue generating the economic benefits our stakeholders depend upon is not without its increasing costs. We are also working hard to retain our current workforce. The aging, shrinking workforce of Nova Scotia has its challenges and we now have to pay for third-party outsourcing. Trade Centre employs approximately 100 full-time employees and 350 part-time employees. These employees are Nova Scotia residents who have worked on major Trade Centre events, from the G-7 Summit in the mid-1990s to the Rolling Stones concert on the Common two years ago and every community dinner, concert, trade mission that we might have in between.

They staff the World Trade Centre Atlantic Canada office tower that provides leaseable office space in the downtown core. They work at the Halifax Metro Centre, that has garnered Halifax the reputation as the only city to host all three international ice hockey world hockey championships. This was earned by the complementary business unit of Events Halifax. Of course, they bid on and win many major events for Halifax, including the Clipper Around the World yacht race with the Nova Scotia brand presently touring the world.

Ticket Atlantic team continues to generate revenue and break world records as they did in the first day of sales for the recent product, Cirque de Soleil, further demonstrating the people of Nova Scotia support events. Through its innovative staff, each business unit is able to complement the other units.

Since we began in 1984, Trade Centre has generated approximately $2.2 billion in direct spending. It is the convention attendees who inject the most money into the economy at seven times the spending of regular event attendees, spending approximately $251 per day

filling hotels, restaurants, cultural and tourism attractions as well. Although they spend the most in the province, they also cost the most to attract and host.

Trade Centre is a unique model because revenue is generated from Ticket Atlantic and the Trade Centre office tower, which cover costs and is projected to return a profit. This helps to offset partial losses from the convention centre which are to be expected as it is the nature of the industry - recognizing that filling hotels, restaurants and cultural and tourism attractions are really the measure of success.

To provide a picture of how important the economic impacts are to the local tourism industry and the value of the dollar in/dollar out ratio, the provincial government's initial investment of $40 million in the current World Trade and Convention Centre has provided $100 million alone to date in provincial taxes since the convention centre opened its doors. That is in addition to the economic benefits of filling hotels, restaurants and cultural attractions with the highly lucrative convention attendees. Thank you very much for the opportunity to present.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much. The opening round of questions will be 20 minutes per caucus. I recognize Mr. Steele with the NDP caucus.

MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Thank you, Madam Chair, and I'd like to thank our guests for being with us today. I do have a couple of preliminary comments before I ask my questions. The one is that we have wanted to have the Trade Centre Limited appear before us for a number of months, however, other things took priority and there was some back and forth about scheduling. I do think it is unfortunate that you're here just as the International Ice Hockey Championship is starting, I know it must be a very busy time for you. It's just an unfortunate coincidence that you're here at such a busy time. I know everybody here, everybody in Nova Scotia looks forward to the great success of that championship.

The second comment is this, that this is the Public Accounts Committee of the Legislature. The work we do is to look backwards, to look at what has been done, not to look at the future, however interesting it might be to look at things like a new convention centre, that is not the business of this committee. Those are very important subjects but they are for another forum.

I don't doubt at all either, the economic benefits that the Trade Centre and its operating units have for the city and for the province. We all know that when you draw in the people that you do, it has a tremendous spinoff benefit, whether it's concerts or sporting events or whatever it may be. My own particular favourite, I have to say, was the Dixie Chicks concert last year, which was an absolutely fantastic concert. It sold out twice, I believe, over two nights. A great event for everybody, for hotels, for bars, for the city. The Trade Centre repeats that over and over again but that's what we're here to talk about today.

This committee tends to look at problems, exceptions, unusual situations. Some people say that that's unfortunate but that's the nature of the business that we're in here on this committee. Those other topics are for other forums, however important they are.

What I want to focus on today are the financial statements of the Trade Centre Limited and, in particular, the items in those financial statements that seem to me to be unusual. When one looks at the financial statements of the Trade Centre Limited, the one thing that jumps out as being highly unusual is an arrangement referred to as a supplemental pension arrangement with the president and the chief executive officer. I'm not aware of any other person in the entire Public Service of the province who has anything that could be referred to as a supplemental pension arrangement. So, Mr. McInnes, could you please explain what a supplemental pension arrangement is.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. McInnes.

HON. STEWART MCINNES: Let me say at the outset that this arrangement was put in place by the board at the time, about seven years ago. There was a question whether Mr. MacGillivray was going to continue as President of the Trade Centre so I understand that the board at the time, as an inducement for him to carry on, entered into this arrangement to provide this particular pension.

When I became chairman, we thought it was appropriate, in exercising due diligence, that we bring in experts to look at the pension and to advise us if it was appropriate for the position. So we engaged KPMG and Mercer Pension Management to do an analysis. They advised us that the pension was appropriate for the position for the responsibility and having regard to comparable positions of responsibility in the private sector. So we wanted that third party analysis and we got that and that is the basis and the background of the pension.

It is dependent, a little bit, on years of service. It's like an MLA, if an MLA serves for 10 years they get 50 per cent of their salary and if you serve for 15 years you get more, so it's based somewhat, obviously, on years of service.

MR. STEELE: I would like to ask you to submit to the committee, Mr. McInnes, a copy of that KPMG Report.

MR. MCINNES: If I just may respond to that. I don't know, there may be a report, it may be all oral. I will have to find out about that.

MR. STEELE: Okay, if it is in writing, then we would like to get it.

MR. MCINNES: Yes.

MR. STEELE: I don't want anybody, by the way, to think that I am opposed to this arrangement. What I am trying to do today is to understand it.

MR. MCINNES: Clearly understood.

MR. STEELE: The reason it jumps out from the financial statements, of course, is because the amount of money involved is large. The payments started in 2002-03. In each of the first three years, the annual amount was $113,000. Then in 2005-06, it climbed by $160,000 in one year. In 2006-07 it climbed by another $150,000. So at the end of only five years, the total value on the financial statements of the supplemental pension was $648,000 and with another fiscal year just ending, at that rate, the supplemental pension today must stand at approximately $800,000. Can you confirm that would be approximately correct?

MR. MCINNES: I can. That is, of course, a paper figure. There has been no cash of any amount set aside relative to that. That is on the books to recognize a potential future liability and we are obliged by good accounting practices, by the instructions of our auditors, to put that liability on the books.

MR. STEELE: That is exactly right and that raises an interesting question. According to the financial statements, except for the last one, this supplemental pension arrangement is referred to as being unfunded. Now I take that to mean that the money is legally owed to Mr. MacGillivray but the Trade Centre Limited hasn't actually set any money aside. So when the amount comes due, where does the Trade Centre Limited expect to get the money?

MR. MCINNES: Well, it will come out of their operating revenues, just out of cash, like any other salary or pension arrangement.

MR. STEELE: Now the Trade Centre Limited is a unit of government. It is technically set up under the Companies Act but the sole shareholder is the Province of Nova Scotia. It is, for all intents and purposes, a unit of the Nova Scotia Provincial Government. So, essentially, the money, one way or another, has to come from Nova Scotia taxpayers. Is that not right?

MR. MCINNES: A fair comment.

[9:15 p.m.]

MR. STEELE: Now the president and CEO receives his regular salary, plus he is, like any other Trade Centre employee, including all the ones who are here today, entitled to belong to the Public Service Superannuation Plan, that is the same pension plan that every public servant, belongs to. Are you aware of any other public servant in the province who receives a pension over and above the Public Service Superannuation Plan?

MR. MCINNES: I am not but I haven't pursued the matter. I have just dealt with our affairs. We haven't done investigation to compare this pension to any other.

MR. STEELE: Has your board verified that this supplemental pension arrangement is in keeping with the Provincial Finance Act?

MR. MCINNES: Yes, as you know, Mr. MacGillivray gets a portion of his pension, as everybody else does, from the government regular pension arrangement and this is on top of that, which the Trade Centre Limited is obligated to pay.

MR. STEELE: I believe, on my reading the Provincial Finance Act, that this arrangement may violate the Provincial Finance Act. My question to you is whether your board has ever verified whether it is, in fact, in keeping with the Provincial Finance Act.

MR. MCINNES: I am not aware of that. Our auditors, who we consult very regularly, and we have audit committees, have not made any statement about that.

MR. STEELE: Have you verified that it is in keeping with the Income Tax Act?

MR. MCINNES: Well, no, I have not.

MR. STEELE: Has the supplementary pension ever been approved by Cabinet?

MR. MCINNES: Yes.

MR. STEELE: When?

MR. MCINNES: Within the last year.

MR. STEELE: Do you have a document that you could submit to the committee on that point?

MR. MCINNES: I know that they have approved it. If we have a document, you may have it, of course.

MR. STEELE: Does the CEO's contract have to be approved by Cabinet?

MR. MCINNES: Yes.

MR. STEELE: Or by the Minister of Economic Development?

MR. MCINNES: Yes.

MR. STEELE: And when was that last done?

MR. MCINNES: Well, it was done and as Mr. MacGillivray's tenure has taken place over a period of years, he has been given increases which have to be approved by the minister and the Cabinet.

MR. STEELE: I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. Each and every time that Mr. MacGillivray receives an increase in his remuneration, that has to be submitted to the minister and Cabinet for their approval?

MR. MCINNES: Not the ordinary 3 per cent annual increments but anything more than that, yes.

MR. STEELE: I wonder if you could let us know, to the best of your recollection, at what points the minister and/or the Cabinet approved the contract?

MR. MCINNES: The original contract?

MR. STEELE: No, you said they have to approve it each time that there's a change.

MR. MCINNES: A significant change, yes.

MR. STEELE: I was just wondering if you could identify for us the points at which that happened?

MR. MCINNES: Yes, we can give you the literature on that, yes.

MR. STEELE: Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not opposed to these arrangements but they are unusual. I think we can all agree on that; they are not the norm in the provincial Civil Service. It is very important that if a precedent is going to be set here that the framework for that precedent be well understood by us, on this committee, by the Legislature and ultimately by the people who are paying for it, namely the taxpayers.

In the same vein, the last time the Auditor General looked at the Trade Centre Limited was in 2002. One of the items that was referred to in that report had to do with executive bonuses. You're probably aware, Mr. McInnes, that within the past year the government has done away with executive bonuses. Has the Trade Centre Limited also done away with executive bonuses?

MR. MCINNES: Yes.

MR. STEELE: And so when is the last time that an executive bonus was given at the Trade Centre Limited?

MR. MCINNES: I'd say two years ago, about two years ago.

MR. STEELE: Did the Trade Centre Limited do that in compliance with a government-wide directive . . .

MR. MCINNES: Yes.

MR. STEELE: . . . or did the Trade Centre limited on its own decide that the bonus system was no longer working?

MR. MCINNES: On a government directive, all Crown corporations had to comply with the new arrangement.

MR. STEELE: One of the other things that the Auditor General raised in his 2002 report had to do with guarantees. At the time, the World Junior Hockey Championship had just been played in Nova Scotia and I attended one of those games and what a fantastic event it was, just a great atmosphere and just a marvelous event. Of course, the Auditor General didn't refer to that in his report, what he referred to was the fact that a guarantee of $3 million had been given to the Canadian Hockey Association. The Auditor General pointed out at the time that that guarantee really, by law, required Cabinet approval which had never been given.

With respect to the International Ice Hockey Championship that is just about to start here in Halifax and Quebec City, am I correct that a similar guarantee has been given and that it amounts to $2 million?

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. MacGillivray.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: There certainly are guarantees in place, similar as they were for the World Juniors in 2003. I would comment on the guarantee for the World Juniors in 2003, I believe it was around $3 million of which, if you recall, we pre-sold the tickets for that particular event, so we had the cash in hand to honour the obligation at that particular time when we entered into that agreement.

MR. STEELE: And I remember that and in the Auditor General's Report there is a reply from the Trade Centre Limited but remember, Mr. MacGillivray, the issue is not whether the guarantee was covered because clearly it was, it was covered quickly and easily because there was tremendous support in the city for that particular championship. The question the Auditor General raised was that the law required Cabinet approval of guarantees, so that's the issue.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: As a result of that, obviously, we sought those guarantees on a go-forward basis to ensure it, similar to the Men's World Hockey Championship which

is now taking place there are guarantees in place which the government is aware of and certainly have been a part of what we've been doing and recognized that we have the ability to make those payments when the actual event is completed.

MR. STEELE: Again I accept that but remember, the law doesn't say the government needs to be aware of it. The law says Cabinet has to formally approve it. Has that been done?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Yes, Cabinet is aware of it and has approved the fact that we have entered into an agreement with the International Ice Hockey Federation.

MR. STEELE: Now you're saying they are aware of and they've approved.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Yes.

MR. STEELE: Do you have a document that you could submit to us on that?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Well, with that particular document, where it is with a third party . . .

MR. STEELE: I'm talking about the Cabinet order.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: I'm not aware of what I would be able to . . .

MR. STEELE: I'm talking about the Cabinet order, I'm not talking about the agreement with the International Ice Hockey Federation, I'm talking about the Cabinet order.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: I wouldn't be aware of the Cabinet report but if it is available, certainly we'll make it available to this committee.

MR. STEELE: And am I correct that the guarantee for this particular championship is $2 million?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Approximately, but it's shared between Halifax and Quebec City.

MR. STEELE: And so what portion of that would be guaranteed by Halifax?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Approximately $2 million.

MR. STEELE: Well, I thought you just said it was $2 million but it's shared?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: No, the total of $4 million is shared between the two cities.

MR. STEELE: Oh, I see. So Quebec City is making its own guarantee?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Correct.

MR. STEELE: So the total guarantee of the International Ice Hockey Federation is higher, but our share is $2 million?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Correct.

MR. STEELE: I'm sure, Mr. MacGillivray, that once again we won't have any difficulty covering that. Again, my concern is not the amount, it's the legalities of it. The laws are there for a reason. The Provincial Finance Act was amended, shortly after the Progressive Conservatives were elected in 1999, to improve government accountabilities and one of the things was that no guarantee could be issued by any government unit without Cabinet approval. So I just want to make sure that those legalities are being followed.

Now, one of the other things the Auditor General pointed out in 2002 which I came across as I was doing my research for today's session was that the Trade Centre Limited articles of association haven't been updated since 1981 and the Auditor General pointed out that this meant that governance structures were not up to date. Based on the research that I've done, it still appears to be the case that Trade Centre Limited was set up in 1981 with fill-in-the-blank, standard form articles of association that tell nothing about how the organization is actually structured. The Auditor General recommended that be changed, but it appears - and I may be mistaken - that's still the case. Has the governance structure been updated?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: There have been some updates to that original incorporation in the last three or four years and it has been part of government's proceedings. Also, too, as far as a governance process is in place, I must say the government has done an excellent job in ensuring that Crown Corporations and Agencies have all put a governance process in place. We had already started one at Trade Centre Limited prior to the government's implementation and since the government has implemented one, they have adopted and approved our governance structure which we spent a significant period of time, post the audit that was done in 2001, to ensure we had it in place. The governance process is continually updated on an annual basis, as well as the government brought us together as Crown Corporations and Agencies, at least twice in the last year, to update us on the general knowledge of governance as a subject.

MR. STEELE: But when I went looking for the documents governing the structure, what I found was the 1981 fill-in-the-blank, standard form articles of association, which would have been produced out of a lawyer's computer that could apply to any company anywhere, it didn't appear to have been updated.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: It has been updated over the last couple of years. There have been some changes to that legislation, not major changes, but there have been some minor changes.

MR. STEELE: Because it is difficult, really, to trace exactly how the Trade Centre Limited is governed and it may be that if changes had been made, they're simply not obviously available to the public.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We could make that governance process available to this committee.

MR. STEELE: That would be helpful, thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. McInnes.

MR. MCINNES: May I just say that a document about this thick on our governance procedures, very complete, we engage experts to guide us through a year-long procedure about how we should run our organization.

MR. STEELE: And my point here today is that Trade Centre Limited is a public entity and the money for it ultimately comes from this Legislature and the taxpayers of the province. That information, however good and thorough it may be, is simply not available to us because when I went looking for it, I sure couldn't find it.

The last thing I wanted to note in this round of questioning is that the Trade Centre Limited is perhaps the only government unit that does not print its audited financial statements in its annual report. Rather than asking a question, I simply want to make this comment that Trade Centre Limited seems to treat the annual report as a marketing document which is fine, marketing is important, marketing is fundamental in your business, but in our business the annual report is an accountability document and there is a difference between marketing and accountability. Your financial statements are very hard to find and they shouldn't be, particularly when questions arise about things like the supplemental pension arrangement. That should be available in your annual report. Thank you, Madam Chair.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. The time has expired - yes, Mr. MacGillivray.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: You're right, Mr. Steele, in the fact that our annual report does act as a marketing piece for us and it is intended to do that. Our Web site does hold more financial information, including annual highlights per year. The audited statement is handed over to the government each year after the audited statement is completed, so it's public record and would be available to anybody who would want to have it.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much. The time has expired now for the NDP caucus. I recognize Mr. MacDonald for the Liberal caucus, you have 20 minutes.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. First of all, Mr. McInnes, I'd like to ask a direct question regarding auditors. In the past couple of years, or of late, have the auditors that you employ expressed any concern to you or to your board, and through you to the board, about any problems that they perceive in the contracts for your senior executives, particularly Mr. MacGillivray?

MR. MCINNES: No, they haven't, Mr. MacDonald.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: They have not. And who are your auditors?

MR. MCINNES: KPMG.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: So as far as you're concerned, they're satisfied with the way things are operating over there and the way that you're doing business. Also, has the Auditor General expressed any concern to you or to your financial people regarding the way the Trade Centre is being operated or the compensation package or salaries of Mr. MacGillivray or anybody else over there? Has the Auditor General expressed any concern?

MR. MCINNES: I don't believe so.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: All right. I just wanted to ask those direct questions, because I think it's important that in your mind and in the mind of your board and in the minds of the auditors, everything that's being done at the Trade Centre is, in their estimation, appropriate with the current laws.

MR. MCINNES: Well, that's my obligation as chair of the board, to ensure that we're operating in accordance with the law. We try to do that. We consult with experts where it's appropriate to do so and we've got a very talented board of directors representing a cross-section of disciplines. I think I'm certainly satisfied, as chair, that we're on course.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: One might say from the questions that are being asked here today, if those questions have any validity, I guess, then you would have to assume that KPMG aren't doing their job because they've told you that by way of their statements to you and their advice to you, everything you're doing at Trade Centre Limited is according to law.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. MCINNES: Well, I won't comment on KPMG. They are very good, they meet with our audit committee two or three times a year. From time to time they say we should

review this particular procedure and so on. We're always upgrading or intensifying or changing our emphasis. I haven't heard any adverse comments about salaries or anything else.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. McInnes, let's put it this way, in my opinion, they're not going to jeopardize their professional reputations by telling you something that's maybe what you want to hear but not necessarily what's in accordance with standard business and accounting practices.

MR. MCINNES: I would agree with that.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Okay. Having said that and cleared that away from my mind, I'd like to just make a few general comments regarding the Trade Centre Limited and, by extension, the Metro Centre. Things that come to my mind when we're dealing with this subject, and it is germane to the subject of today because what the New Democrats, on this sheet at least, were asking to focus in on was financial statements, the Commonwealth Games and the supplementary pension issue. I suggest, Madam Chair, that all of these are issues that will be germane to what I have to say in my few moments here.

My opening statement on that matter would be that in terms of running a major corporation like the World Trade Centre Limited and Metro Centre and the other ancillary facilities that go with that, is that you get what you pay for. In this particular case I think the people I see across from you here have served the City of Halifax well and the Province of Nova Scotia well, in terms of how they've operated World Trade Centre and Metro Centre. I speak from some experience in my former life as Mayor of Sydney, when somewhat similar, on a smaller scale, we ran into similar problems about building facilities to make your city better or make your city more of an attraction for people from outside to come and visit.

Truly, while the scales weren't the same, I recall back to the mid-1980s, when we were trying to build Centre 200 in Sydney, I sought the advice of Mr. MacGillivray's people and I sought the advice of the Mayor of Halifax of the day and some other people who were involved, including the Premier of the day, and we decided to take a leap of faith in Sydney and build Centre 200. Immediately, two new hotels went up.

Immediately after we built it, the American Hockey League came to town and, for a time, we had two American Hockey League teams in Nova Scotia - one in Halifax and one in Sydney. People are still shaking their heads at how the little City of Sydney - or some people called it the Town of Sydney at the time because of our population - a city of 30,000 people could win a Calder Cup and attract that many people to Sydney in 1993. I was quite proud of that because I was not only Mayor of Sydney but chairman of the hockey club as well.

So I know there's a great deal of support out there for what the Trade Centre has been able to do to Halifax. Halifax has become truly an international city. I see what has been happening here and I see the message that Mr. MacGillivray is trying to give to the people of Halifax and, indeed, to the people of Nova Scotia, is that if you build it they will come. He has proven that and the Trade Centre has proven that time and time again. He's very right when he states that we now have outdated facilities in Nova Scotia in terms of their size.

Halifax is becoming less competitive because of the fact that we can't host large conventions simultaneously. We can't host more than one at any given period of time and we certainly can't attract the kinds of concerts to Halifax that we once could attract, and also to Sydney by Halifax doing partnerships with Sydney. We can't attract them because we simply don't have the number of seats. If there's a vision out there, I think that Mr. MacGillivray and his people have certainly grasped that vision. They know that Halifax needs to grow in the future and they are trying to convince their political masters of that fact. They convinced me a long time ago.

I will give you an example, Madam Chair. The people who travel from Sydney to Halifax used to travel every week for treatment in the hospital and stay at the Point Pleasant Lodge because there weren't medical facilities in Sydney. Now we have a cancer centre in Sydney, which is helping us tremendously, but the people from Sydney are still travelling to Halifax and they are travelling to Halifax to go to the World Trade Centre and the Metro Centre, in particular, for the concerts that we can no longer afford to have in Centre 200 in Sydney. So Halifax is generating action from all over the province in terms of people coming into Halifax, staying in the hotels, and Mr. MacGillivray is quite right with the economic driver that the World Trade Centre has become in the City of Halifax.

You know, I make those remarks because if I was being told there was something wrong with the way the Metro Centre is operating procedurally, I would be the first to take exception with it, but I don't see any evidence of that. I see a great deal of evidence that we have the right people in place over there, that Halifax, as a city, has grown tremendously because of what has been happening in the downtown core, what has been happening with facilities that are now, again, becoming outdated.

I hope that in the future, Madam Chair, the people who are in charge of the policy direction of Crown Corporations like the Trade Centre Limited and the Halifax Metro Centre - as well, in the same vein I would like to congratulate Scott for the job he has been doing over there at the Metro Centre. You can see what's happening here. Every week there's something going on there and I hope in the future that will continue, that the people who truly want Halifax to become an international centre have to realize that you can't do business from an empty wagon. You have to have the facilities in order to compete. It's the cost of doing business. I've always said that. I've said that in Sydney and I had many a fight in city council in Sydney about getting facilities for the City of Sydney. The words that

always came out were, "We can't afford it. The old is good enough. We have to do something else."

I can tell you, Madam Chair, that Centre 200 is 20 years old and it's paid off. There's no more debt owed on Centre 200. It's there, it's a lasting facility in Sydney, now it has to be expanded. I'm putting a commercial, while I'm sitting here, into the city council of CBRM at the same time, that it has to be expanded if Sydney's going to be able to continue to compete. We lost the American Hockey League franchise for that simple reason, we didn't have enough seats in Centre 200 and it became too expensive. We do have the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League there and hopefully in the future we'll be able to attract some more concerts.

I say that because I have the same kind of situation happening on a much smaller scale perhaps in the CBRM and Sydney than is going on here in Halifax. Madam Chair, I say that because I truly believe that if we're going to move forward here in Halifax, we have to continue to employ good people in these facilities. We have them now, are we going to have them in the future? Is our focus going to be for increasing facilities in Halifax, facilities that will compete nationally and internationally?

The storm signals have gone out there that we can't compete now unless we change, unless we get new facilities. Believe me, we won't go broke by getting new facilities. We've proven it in Sydney - we built a $15 million facility in 1985, it's paid for. For the 10 years leading up to amalgamation there weren't any tax increases in the City of Sydney. So we didn't go broke and we have a new centre down there. I say that again because the silent majority is always out there and I'm convinced that the silent majority in HRM and in Nova Scotia support the work being done by the Trade Centre.

Look at what's building around the Trade Centre in downtown Halifax, take a walk and see what's going on with the condos, hotels. I'm truly jealous of what's happening up here and how we should be getting some things going in Sydney, as well, in order to attract people to that part of the province.

I'm going to pass it off, but just in conclusion, I will say I'm pleased with the way things have been operating over there. No one has given me, or our caucus, any evidence that there's anything going on over there that's not correct. I believe that the financial statements adequately reflect the situation over there and, again, I'll end up by saying you get what you pay for and I can say that as Minister of Economic Development, before I left office, when the current government took over, I had the pleasure of renewing Mr. MacGillivray's contract as one of my last acts and I'm happy I did. So I'll turn it over.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald. I now recognize Mr. Colwell. You have until 9:47 a.m.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: Thank you. I'm going to ask Mr. MacGillivray a few questions here. I can recall, I remember the history of the World Trade and Convention Centre before you went to work there and under your leadership the fantastic changes that have taken place. Could you briefly describe to our committee what the situation was when you originally took the job? I remember the media stories about how the centre was losing money every year and all kinds of major problems.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Thank you. I came on the scene in 1994 and at that particular time the business was about 10 years of age. We'd experienced upwards of about $2 million in losses on an annual basis until that particular point in time.

Being able to work with like-minded people, like people who are attending here with me this morning, over the last number of years, we were able to improve that picture by increasing our revenues, increasing our business opportunities. Fortunately for us, we have not had to call upon the Government of Nova Scotia to fund any losses from 1995 through to the year 2007. The Trade Centre has been able to operate out of its own cash flow because of being able to put some operating profits in the business. The last couple of years we've had some challenges there and we will certainly be visiting, and we have visited, with our Government of Nova Scotia to the needs of improving that position at this particular point because of some of the challenges we're presently facing.

Clearly, there has been a long record of achievement, of being able to bring more business to Halifax, expanding our opportunities in Halifax and Nova Scotia in a very financially successful way. Now, of course, as has been mentioned by a couple of other people earlier in the conversation, we have to look at improving those present facilities, but clearly the track record has been a good one.

MR. COLWELL: In 1994, when you took over the World Trade Centre, how many employees did you have at that time?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Probably in the range of 80-odd employees and probably about 300 part-time employees, which now is about 100 and 350. So we have increased the number of individuals who work with us because we've increased our business dramatically over that point in time.

MR. COLWELL: During that time I remember I was on regional council and there were some really big problems with Exhibition Park at that time and with the wisdom of council, they turned it over to your management team to look after, which should have happened many years before that. Could you describe what you inherited there when you inherited that?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Obviously, we inherited some challenges in that particular facility, it was built in the early 1980s. I'm sure when it was built the funding available to it

was somewhat challenged. We received a building that certainly was in need of a lot of repair, from an operating perspective as well as health and safety issues. Also, they were facing a considerable position of debt. We, as a business, took it over without asking the government for any monies at the time and were able to put a little over $2 million in the facility to pay off debt that was encountered prior to us taking it over, as well as putting some capital costs into the building to make it structurally safe and, of course, not only safe for our customers, but also for our employees who work in that facility.

It has been a challenge, it continues to be. It is a drain on our overall ability to make profit, but we certainly are proud of the fact that we have been able to sustain a good business, grow our business over time, but certainly there are challenges facing us at present and on an ongoing basis.

MR. COLWELL: I can remember the facts and figures you brought to council at that time and were brought prior to you agreeing to take this albatross over at the time. There was a discussion about the previous board and the management there building some kind of racetrack or something without authorization?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We certainly probably were in some businesses that perhaps we shouldn't have been in at the time. Certainly we were able to look at the business, make some changes, and it fit our profile. What is Trade Centre Limited in the business of doing? It's bringing people together in Halifax and Nova Scotia to create economic generation. Exhibition Park does that as well, it's challenging to make an operating profit. But certainly the numbers, as I indicated earlier, last year alone over $170 million was generated for the Nova Scotia economy from the fact that we do run these facilities. It does make a major contribution, but certainly there are challenges on an ongoing basis to continue to operate some of those aged facilities.

MR. COLWELL: What would you need - it's an awful scary question to ask you, I know, because you have great vision for the Halifax Regional Municipality, which I greatly respect - what is the main thing that you really need to make a change that would really help our community, our municipality and our province, to really promote the things that you've been working on so hard, the concerts that you've worked on and all of the other major things, never mind mentioning the day-to-day operations, the bread and butter of the things you do?

[9:45 a.m.]

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Obviously, on a go-forward basis - and I've spoken publicly on this a number of times - Halifax is one of the highest sought-after destinations in the Province of Nova Scotia as to any other facilities across the country. People like coming to Nova Scotia, they love the experience - people will say, friendly people, safe environment, we love being on the ocean, haven't been there before. It promotes a lot of tourism for

people, like in the convention business, where 48 per cent of the people who come to Nova Scotia for a meeting or a convention will stay three to five days in Nova Scotia, pre or post their opportunity. People want to come here.

Now we're challenged by the fact that we have undersized facilities - the demand that we have created is forcing us to say, look, we need new facilities, larger facilities, more modern facilities, people still want to come here. We still are competitive, but we're losing our competitive edge because we're turning away almost as much business certain months of the year as we are bringing business here.

Recently, in the past month, I can recall a major corporation that wanted to come to Halifax in January for three Januaries in succession, for one of the largest pieces of corporate business that we would have had on our books for the next three years, we had to turn them away because of the lack of size, not being able to handle the particular business coming here.

Our vision for the future certainly would be new and expanded convention facilities, a new and/or expanded Metro Centre, an upgraded Exhibition Park - there is a huge opportunity in Exhibition Park on a go-forward basis. If you look at the land available there that's owned by the Province of Nova Scotia, it is more in the central portion of the City of Halifax than it has ever been before because of the expansion of our city. It is a prime piece of land that needs a vision on a go-forward basis to make it a real destination.

I believe Trade Centre Limited, the Crown Corporation owned and operated by the Province of Nova Scotia, has a tremendous future but the future has to include upgraded and/or a new structure to be able to meet the demands of people who dearly want to come to Halifax and Nova Scotia. We have a great future if we're able to accomplish that.

MADAM CHAIR: Order, the time has now expired for the Liberal caucus. I recognize Mr. Bain for the PC caucus, you have 20 minutes.

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning. Thank you for appearing before us this morning.

I notice in the Trade Centre accountability record in 2005-06, there was a loss of approximately $702,000 and last year $416,000. Is there any particular branch of the Trade Centre that is under-performing and causing some of these losses?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: It's really an accumulation of the facilities that we own and operate and the fact, that I've said a few moments ago, we are becoming more challenged by aged facilities, it is costing us more to operate those facilities. Our taxes that we pay as a facility to the Province of Nova Scotia - the City of Halifax, I should say - have been increasing on an ongoing basis. Those are challenges.

Insurance costs have increased, the cost of energy to run our facilities is increasing as we speak and we all know from our own home personal costs, that's not going to go down on a go-forward basis as well. So the challenges are really in running aged facilities, undersized facilities, increasing expensive facilities because of their age, so that is really the challenge we're facing these days. It is not really one particular area, it is spread over our overall business and certainly we have been in discussions with the owners of our business, the Province of Nova Scotia, about the potential of perhaps making changes which will bring more business to the Province of Nova Scotia and the City of Halifax and will grow that $170 million in direct economic expenditures that we provide to the economy here in Nova Scotia. That number will grow substantially if we're able to accomplish that on a go-forward basis.

MR. BAIN: Thank you. Are there similar organizations in other cities that are actually making a profit? You know, similar to what the Trade Centre is?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We are a very unique model of a trade centre or a Crown Corporation where we operate the many facilities that we do and have an office tower that supports our business, as well as having Ticket Atlantic, et cetera.

Across the country, if you look at other venues and other cities, they're expanding their facilities and our convention centre is approximately 55,000 square feet; if you looked across the country the average size facility in our type of business is about 158,000 square feet. So we are challenged by other cities that want the same business that we're able to attain here in Halifax. So there's no question, across the country all of these facilities are challenged by the bottom line. In some cases, the province and/or the city pays the tax; in some cases, the province or the city pays the electrical cost; in some cases, the province or the city pay other maintenance costs, et cetera, so that they don't show a huge operating loss.

In our particular case, as you see by our financial statements, we carry those costs as a Crown Corporation so we are challenged by them. If there is one facility in Canada that has the opportunity to make an operating profit, it would be the Convention Centre in Toronto that has over one million square feet. In Vancouver, they're expanding now to 650,000 square feet. Saskatoon has expanded their facilities, Calgary and Edmonton have modernized and expanded their facilities. The City of Ottawa has made a decision to close their facilities for two years, to build an appropriate-sized convention facility to be able to take that business on a go-forward basis.

Quebec City has modernized and expanded, as well as Montreal, so all of that competition across the country that loses money on a regular basis but is recognized as an economic generator to the province and the city they may be in, continues to expend and put monies into those facilities because they recognize, as well as we do here, the $170-plus million that we would be putting into helping grow the Nova Scotia economy.

MR. BAIN: Thank you. I think you answered the next question I was going to have, so I'll move on to the other. The question I was going to ask was about support from municipalities or cities that HRM wouldn't get and you've answered that.

In your opening remarks, you mentioned that convention attendees spend on average $251.80 a day. How does this compare to what an average tourist coming to the city would spend?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: I couldn't specifically tell you the average tourist numbers but I will compare our own business. For example, if somebody was to go to a hockey game in downtown Halifax on a Wednesday night or a Friday night, the average expenditure would be approximately $42, versus a convention traveller who spends that $250-plus. So there's a significant difference. It's normally about seven times the number of a normal tourism opportunity in the Province of Nova Scotia. So when we do the business that we do, we certainly are able to generate a lot more into the Nova Scotia economy than the normal tourism person who comes because, as I said to you earlier, or expressed earlier, 48 per cent of the people who come for a convention or a major meeting will spend three to five days in Nova Scotia for a tourism opportunity. Those numbers, of course, would be under the tourism numbers, not specifically under ours.

MR. BAIN: I guess starting tomorrow - well, the excitement is already in the city right now with the International Ice Hockey Federation. I think the first game is tomorrow. It's the first time in 100 years, the history of the IIHF, that the tournament is going to be held in Canada, I believe. I think I am right in saying that.

I would like to ask you, Mr. MacGillivray, what role did you and the Trade Centre play in the Halifax-Quebec City bid to host this tournament?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Well, it goes back a number of years ago when we first decided in the 1990s that we do a great job of bringing meetings and conventions to Halifax and to the Province of Nova Scotia. Why aren't we doing more to bring in major events like hockey or basketball or football, as we have done, or many other sports or cultural events like the World Theatre Congress that we brought around 2001 or 2002? We recognize the direct expenditures that would be made here and how we could help grow the Nova Scotia economy.

So we went down that road and obviously, as we started to go into the business at Events Halifax, we recognized the opportunity for the World Juniors in 2003. We were able to encourage Hockey Canada to choose Halifax as the host city. We worked along with the City of Sydney as a co-host with us. We took exhibition games around the Province of Nova Scotia. We were able to share the expenditures that were spent in this province to many other areas of this province as well.

As a result of building that relationship with Hockey Canada and the International Ice Hockey Federation, and the fact that we set records - the largest attendance ever for a World Junior Hockey Championship in the world, the largest financial return, the biggest television viewership of any game on TSN in its history, and it still stands, was the final game in Halifax - as a result of that, we were able to encourage them to bring the Women's World Hockey Championships to Halifax. We set records in attendance for that particular event. We set financial records for that particular event. We set, again, television records for that particular event.

As a result of that growing relationship, I and my colleagues were able to attend the World Championship meetings - I believe it was in the Czech Republic, if I remember back a few years ago - to encourage the International Ice Hockey Federation to bring the event, the Men's World Hockey Championships, to Canada and to approve Halifax and Quebec City as partners. As a result of that, we are the first city in the world, the first province in the world, to have hosted all three - World Juniors, World Women's and the Men's World Hockey Championship in the 72-year history of the event and the 100-year history of the International Ice Hockey Federation. They are celebrating their 100^th Anniversary here in Halifax and Quebec City as we speak.

MR. BAIN: That is certainly very encouraging and speaks well. I guess we are a leader in something else.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Well, yes, and it certainly opens the door for us to be able to achieve - I hear it often, people will call and say would you come and speak in our municipality about how you achieve those successes in Halifax and Nova Scotia. It's because of those building of relationships over the years with sporting associations as well as cultural associations.

MR. BAIN: Would you be able to estimate the financial value of the International Ice Hockey Federation being in the city for these . . .

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: The International Ice Hockey Federation that will take place this week will put in over $30 million alone into the City of Halifax and the Province of Nova Scotia as a result of this event. So when you look at our $170 million last year driven into the Nova Scotia economy to help us grow, one event this year will be well over $30 million. So on a go-forward basis, we will grow that number substantially.

MR. BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to turn the floor over to my colleague.

MADAM CHAIR: I recognize Mr. Dunn. You have until 10:07 a.m.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: Madam Chair, I would like to begin by following up on my colleague from Cape Breton, with regard to the work that your board has been doing over the last many years. I certainly agree with all his statements and realize the tough decisions and the challenges that you have had and will continue to have because of a lot of information that you have passed on here this morning. However, that has been a tremendous economic engine in our province and I certainly would like to have it on my back doorstep in Pictou County but I know that is not feasible, so Halifax isn't too far away. Certainly there's a great deal of support for events that occur here in this city due to your foresight and your hard work. Certainly there are a lot of people from the county where I live who attend these events, and across the Province of Nova Scotia - but also outside the province there's a fair number of people who come from around the Maritime Provinces to events that are held here in the capital city.

Just a couple of questions that I have, and one question that comes to mind because I'm quite a hockey fan - and I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it anyway - I was disappointed with the arrangements between Quebec and Halifax with regard to the International Ice Hockey Federation games, that we didn't obtain maybe the semifinals. I can understand the finals, but what kind of negotiation was going on there and what was the ultimate reason why both the semis and the finals ended up in Quebec?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: That's a very good question. I know there are a lot of other people who have asked me the same question. I'm sure a lot of other people would like to hear the answer, but first of all let me congratulate the Pictou County Crushers for their victory last weekend, and advance to the Fred Page Cup - well done. After a slow start, they certainly came on well on the weekend.

MR. DUNN: I'm still reading the paper to make sure it really happened.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: You bring up another matter as well, the fact that you would like to see some of those things that happen in Halifax happen in Pictou County. I will share with you briefly that we, as a company, as a Crown Corporation, the Trade Centre Limited, work diligently to find other opportunities that we can spread those opportunities to go to other parts of the province, including Pictou County, and we will be continuing to do that. Hopefully we'll be able to announce other opportunities on a go-forward basis, like Port Hawkesbury entertaining a team this year and having an exhibition game last night because of the Men's World. So we see the need to do that in other areas of the province and we'll continue to do that.

The question was why did we choose to take the portion of the Men's International Ice Hockey Federation the way that we have set it up. Well obviously I would think, first and foremost, and a decision that we made, that Team Canada would be the highly sought-after team to have here in Halifax. There's a potential of seven or eight games being played here in Halifax with Team Canada. We couldn't take both ends of it; it was either a choice of

taking the finals and the semifinals or taking Team Canada. In respect to the Quebec City operation, they deserved to have an opportunity to have success as well, and they will be hosting the semifinal and final games. So a decision was made and, clearly, we felt that the people of Nova Scotia and the Maritimes who will come for the events here will appreciate the fact that they'll get to see Team Canada as often as they will, and hopefully we'll see them in the semifinal and the final games in Quebec City. That's the reason behind the decision.

[10:00 a.m.]

MR. DUNN: We certainly understand, I know from my area, that events of this nature have to be held in a facility like is presently located in Halifax and that these types of facilities on that magnitude are difficult to be placed in many other centres in the province. So we certainly don't mind coming a very short distance to the city to see these events. Are you presently looking at any other major events or working on any other major events that may be happening in the ensuing years, the next four to five years?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We continue to work on them on a regular basis. As you would know, we participated with the province in helping achieve the Canada Winter Games coming here in 2011; we certainly have worked diligently to bring the 2009 Men's World Canoe Championships to Halifax - there are many events of that nature - we're working on potentially another Brier coming back to Nova Scotia in the very near future; and certainly we have worked with the local basketball team to bring a major team to Halifax, and will continue to work with them to keep them here.

Last year alone - if I believe my numbers are right - of ten opportunities that we looked at on an international and national basis, Halifax and Nova Scotia were able to obtain seven of them. I see that continuing on a go-forward basis, but I see it being challenging unless we really recognize our need for infrastructure in the province to be able to hold some of those events. We do a great job on individual sporting and cultural events. If we're ever going to do any multi-sport events, we must look at our aging facilities and, as you indicated by your question in Quebec City, the other consideration of course was they have 17,000 seats and we have 10,000 seats.

So those are some of the obstacles that we face as we try to bring more events here but, no, the future is strong. Nova Scotia will celebrate many more great events on a go-forward basis. The concert business is as active, or more active, than it has ever been - I think you've seen recently that we've brought forward for Halifax a number of concerts that are coming up this year. So the entertainment value in the city and the province continues to grow and I see that being the case on a go-forward basis.

MR. DUNN: There have been tremendous economic spinoffs in the province because of all the events happening here in the city. I think you mentioned earlier the great demand

that you have created has also caused problems for you with regard to enticing people because of the infrastructure deficit. Could you make a few comments on the future of facilities in this particular area of the city, your vision for what you would like to see?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: There's no question that our successes have really driven the fact that if we're going to continue to be one of the most highly sought-after destinations in the country, because of our location and our history, that we must improve the present infrastructure that we have.

Our vision would include a new convention facility, probably of 200,000 square feet, which will allow us to compete with other facilities that are competitive to us across the country; either a new or expanded Metro Centre, we believe more in the 14,000 to 15,000 seat range to be able to bring larger concerts, larger sporting events to Halifax and Nova Scotia; and certainly to upgrade and expand upon the facilities that we have at Exhibition Park. As I said earlier, I believe it is a real nugget on a go-forward basis - the position of that particular facility, and the lands that surround it allow us a vision to look at many different destination opportunities for that particular facility.

Conventions facilities. Downtown Halifax, clearly, is where the people want to be. Downtown Halifax is where the infrastructure is already in place surrounding our convention facilities. Downtown Halifax, obviously, for a Metro Centre that continues to bring lots of business to our city and our province, and can only improve upon that with new and/or expanded facilities.

So on a go-forward basis the vision is very clear - the need for new, upgraded infrastructure to be able to meet the growing demands of people who want to come to our City of Halifax and to our Province of Nova Scotia.

MR. DUNN: With regard to a new facility, would the present board that you're associated with - the Trade Centre - have a great deal of input or all of the input into how a facility should look, how big it should be, where it should be located?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We meet with our board on a regular basis. Our board is very supportive of our strategies. We've set our strategies, for the next five years, in the past year. Our board supports that and that includes, of course, in our strategies the new expanded and/or new infrastructure to be able to grow our business and to be able to grow that economic contribution to the Province of Nova Scotia that helps drive our economy. The board have been very supportive, they're very participative in our discussions in this particular subject of this nature, and on a go-forward basis, as our chairman has said, we've been able to put together a board who represent the many needs that we would have as a business.

It represents the Province of Nova Scotia well and they are individuals who have a similar interest in seeing our economy grow and seeing our opportunities grow to bring more people to Halifax and Nova Scotia. As I said earlier, our reason to be in business is to bring people together in Halifax and Nova Scotia, to grow our economy here in the province.

MR. DUNN: What would happen with the existing facilities if we reached the point where we were able to create the facilities that we know we need? What happens to the existing facilities?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: As you probably are aware, there is an expression of interest presently out in the marketplace asking potential developers of what they would come forward to, what would a new convention facility look like. It would allow the Province of Nova Scotia and the City of Halifax to assess that - of which the Trade Centre Limited, of course, is part of that assessment - as to what would a new facility look like, where would it be located, and of course it would depend on what offerings come forward. If something is close enough to our facility, we would continue to work in tandem with the Halifax Metro Centre in a new convention facility.

So, again, it's difficult to answer your question until we see what the expressions of interest will bring forth, and whether the expression of interest allows the Province of Nova Scotia and the City of Halifax to move to the next step - and that would be if they see an expression of interest that will allow that - as to where we will locate a new facility. So the decision on the present facilities would not be made until that particular point in time, but I see them continuing to be a major part of being able to bring people to Nova Scotia and to Halifax to grow our economy.

MR. DUNN: Do you have a ballpark figure of the types of dollars we would be looking at to create a facility that would be more than adequate?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Again, it would be a very ballpark but, clearly, if we were to build a 200,000 square foot facility, which is the need of our city and our province, it is certainly in the $150 million range.

MADAM CHAIR: The time has now expired for the first round of questions. The second round of questions will be twelve minutes in length, and I recognize Mr. Steele from the NDP caucus.

MR. STEELE: Thank you. I just want to take a couple of minutes to clarify a couple of points that I was pursuing in the first round.

We ended off talking about the financial statements and, Mr. MacGillivray, you referred to the fact that the Trade Centre Limited does consider the annual report to be a marketing document and that a summary or highlights of the financial statements are

provided. The message I'm trying to convey to you is that as a member of the Legislature, as a member of this committee, I don't want a summary, I don't want highlights. I want the actual audited financial statements because the document in which they're most easily accessible to myself and the public is in the annual report.

You are right, they are accessible and I know where to look for them and that is in the province's annual Public Accounts. They're buried deep in a very thick document. Most people wouldn't know where to look for them. It is only when we get the standard form audited financial statements that we see things like the supplemental pension which, needless to say, is not referred to in the highlights document that the Trade Centre Limited does publish.

Mr. McInnes, I was reflecting on what you were saying earlier, that there is a time when, in order to retain Mr. MacGillivray's services - which I would be the first in line to say he does a great job and we need to retain him and people like him - you said that this supplemental arrangement was made in order to retain him. It occurred to me, if you want to retain somebody, why don't you just increase their salary? What was the purpose of retaining him by means of an accounting entry that effectively boosts his salary but isn't reported as such? Why was it done that way?

MR. MCINNES: I don't know, I wasn't there and I wasn't privy to those discussions. I've inherited the history of the decision. It wasn't so much the paper entry - for Mr. MacGillivray it was important that he have a pension that was commensurate with the kind that he could get if he went into the private sector. That was the idea; we were in competition with the private sector to retain his services, and this was the inducement offered to secure his ongoing involvement.

MR. STEELE: Of course the main reason for my concern is because it is the Trade Centre Limited, it is a public entity, it is a unit of government. If this arrangement stands, then you can bet that other people will be looking for it as well, which is why it's important that the rules be known and that the legalities be followed and that there be complete transparency.

Now between the first and the second round of questioning, I went out to get a copy of the Provincial Finance Act. I want to refer you and your board and your legal advisors to Section 59C of the Provincial Finance Act, which was passed in the year 2000, which requires that all obligations of this kind be approved by Cabinet.

Now I just want to clarify one thing - to your knowledge, Mr. McInnes, was this supplemental pension arrangement, or was it not, approved by Cabinet?

MR. MCINNES: Absolutely yes.

MR. STEELE: And you can provide us with the documentation to substantiate that?

MR. MCINNES: Yes.

MR. STEELE: Thank you. I'm going to turn it over to my colleague now.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. Mr. Wilson, you have until 10:20 a.m.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm sorry I missed the introduction. My name is Dave Wilson, I'm the MLA for Sackville-Cobequid.

We always hear about the success of the Trade Centre, the Metro Centre, the Convention Centre, which is a positive thing and we have to hear that. We also - and I'm concerned when we hear about the Trade Centre's estimated loss deficit, like last year the estimated deficit was about $250,000 and the actual deficit was around $2 million, I believe. Then we hear, and it was in today's paper, about layoffs at the Trade Centre and that concerns me, when we have such successful events and attractions here in the province and in Halifax, that we have individuals laid off. For the record, how many individuals have you laid off because of the deficit, I believe, is what you've mentioned in the paper?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Thank you. As I mentioned earlier, the ongoing challenges of running the business, of course, with aged facilities and increasing costs, present challenges to us. We, as a business, must recognize the need to meet our obligations. The Province of Nova Scotia, fortunately, has not had to fund, since 1995, the operating costs for Trade Centre Limited. As a result of the increasing costs in the past couple of years, we'll have to revisit that relationship with the Province of Nova Scotia.

There's no question that in recognizing the need to right-size our business, there certainly has been - I wouldn't necessarily call them lay-offs, there are some positions that we have eliminated in our business. We have put a lot of thought into this, these things are always difficult to do, but we have to be responsible.

As Mr. Steele said earlier, the taxpayers of Nova Scotia are the people we are responsible to at the end of the day. None of the particular positions that have left us this week interfere with our ability to continue to operate successfully our facilities. Some of the support staff that were available to us in particular departments have left our employment. The number is six, by the way, of the 450 employees that we have at the Trade Centre as we speak.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): How did you choose to lay off those six? And, have you left the door open to bring them back if things change, if the forecast for this year is better than what you've had over the last couple of years?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: The forecast for this year is better. There's no question about that, but it still presents challenges to us. As a business that has to be responsible, we've taken a lot of time to look at our business and have ensured in the particular cuts we've made, they would not affect the ongoing operations of our business. But, again, as any business, you have to look at it on an annual basis. What are your revenues? What are you able to bring into your business? What is the cost of running that business? We are becoming more challenged than we were in the past, so some of those decisions had to be made and they were made.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): But, that wasn't the question I asked. I appreciate it, but how did you choose which individuals . . .

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Well, you would look at each individual department within our business and what changes can we make that won't affect the ongoing operations of our business. By looking at each individual business, we were able to select particular areas that wouldn't affect the ongoing running of our business. I mean, that's clearly the approach that we took.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Would that be something that would go to the board, or is that just . . .

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: No, that's an operational issue. We certainly have made our board aware of it, and we certainly will give them a good update in our next board meeting, but that is an operational issue that we have to challenge ourselves with on a daily basis.

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): You mentioned earlier, I believe, one of the questions asked here around other trade centres, other convention centres, who have agreements with city and provinces to cover some of the costs you said have increased - insurance, utilities and other things. Have you made a request from the government, from the city, to try to help alleviate your deficit, the ability not to show a deficit? Have you approached the province or the city to help with that and to identify and recognize other provinces have agreements?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We have had those discussions. There is no question there are varying models across the country. Again, as I stated earlier, there are some facilities that don't pay, perhaps, for their power costs, they're subsidized. We are probably one of the only convention centres in Canada that pays a municipal tax. Our municipal taxes last year were approximately, I think, between $900,000 and $1 million.

There are other models out there that are different than ours that help alleviate some of those losses. Of course, the whole idea of being in the business we're in, as well as similar

businesses of ours across the country, is to drive dollars into the local economy; fill the hotels, fill the restaurants, fill the taxi cabs. All of those ancillary businesses surrounding us that benefit from who pay taxes on a go-forward basis, that's our main reason to be in business - to drive the Nova Scotia economy.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): It just seems so ridiculous in my perception of a company, a Crown Corporation, owned by the people of this province and you're paying taxes up to $900,000. Have you made that formal request to the municipality to not pay those taxes? Ultimately, that has to come back to the provincial government and their responsibility to ensure the municipality, especially here in Halifax, has the revenue they need to generate the services needed here. So have you made that request to the municipality?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We have had those discussions. Certainly there is nothing, at this particular point, that I can share with you, that the position will change.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Hopefully the public, and the awareness around this, will ultimately drive a more appropriate decision when we see this because, as I said, ultimately the taxpayers are going to cover any loss shown by your organization.

One quick question. We hear about the need for a new Trade Centre, which I think everybody appreciates and recognizes. What do you foresee with the current facility if a new facility is built much larger? Is it something that will be ongoing that you will have the two facilities operating or do you see maybe a sale of the current facility to run a new, much larger facility?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Again, that will depend on what the expressions of interest bring back to us - that is the Province of Nova Scotia, the City of Halifax and the Trade Centre - to assess what the model looks like on a go-forward basis. If it is independent of the present facilities, obviously we'll have to look at what it would look like on a go-forward basis. Do we add more office space, do we continue to run it, do we make a deal to do something else with it? Bear in mind, even if we went to another facility, we still have the Halifax Metro Centre in downtown Halifax, which we will continue to operate and hopefully in conjunction with a new convention facility, hopefully in close proximity in the downtown core, to that present facility.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): What kind of timeline is on this? I know the expressions of interest have been promoted. What kind of timeline are we looking at?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We expect by the middle of May we will have the expressions of interest returned to this committee. We expect over the next number of

months that we will assess this as to whether there's a viable opportunity on a go-forward basis. If the Province of Nova Scotia and the City of Halifax feel that it is appropriate to move forward with a new facility, then we'll go to the next step. That would be a tendering contract to look at what that new facility might look like and what it might represent on a go-forward basis for us to be able to attain and grow the convention business and the meeting business in Halifax and Nova Scotia.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I know I only have about 30 seconds so I'll end on a comment. I hope with this process that we've learned and you've learned from past experiences, like the Commonwealth Games, how important it is to ensure the public is notified, the public knows the cost involved in this. It can't just be a dialogue between yourself, the provincial government and the municipal government, it has to be with the public. Far too often those in the government role forget that. I hope that you have learned from past mistakes or past experiences. I hope that's emphasized when we go forward with this.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We certainly would recognize the need to do that and, of course, it would be in partnership with the potential owners of the facility, whether it be the province, whether it be city, whether it be a combination of the two.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Thanks.

MADAM CHAIR: The time has expired for the NDP caucus.

I recognize Mr. Glavine for the Liberal caucus. You have until 10:32 a.m.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Madam Chair and thank you, members of the World Trade Centre, different levels of occupation, for being here today.

Having been on a board of an arena for about 20 or 25 years, just knowing that it has a life cycle, I'm just wondering where the Metro Centre - which is really, I think, a great identification piece for Nova Scotians, many have come for some event in particular, what the ice facility has offered. How is that viewed currently by management and a board in terms of its point in the life cycle, just for natural, major renovation or replacement?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: There's no question, as we look at our business as the managers of and the people responsible for the Halifax Metro Centre - and I would remind you that really is a municipal facility, we don't report it as part of the Trade Centre Limited in our financial statements, as you probably have noticed. But I will comment on the fact that it is an aged facility. It was built in 1978, so it's 30 years of age this year. Any buildings in our province that are 30 years of age plus, have shown some tremendous growth in the maintenance issues.

I would like to commend the people who I work with on their abilities to maintain that building over the last 30 years. I think they have done an excellent job. Our employees continue to do a lot of preventive maintenance on our facilities. That's the reason why that business continues to grow and we continue to be able to operate out of the Halifax Metro Centre.

But the vision for the future, if you want to look at the next 40 to 50 years in Nova Scotia and the City of Halifax, we must recognize that aged facility will not allow us to continue to bring the wonderful events that come to this city and province unless we recognize the need to either build a new facility and/or expand the present facility and modernize it.

There's no question in my mind that our vision clearly dictates that this is a matter we must be serious about. At this particular point, of course, our expression of interest recognizes the need for a new convention facility. Post that exercise, we will look at what are the ways and means to move forward on whether it's expansion, modernization, new facility, along with our partners, the City of Halifax.

MR. GLAVINE: In terms of attracting concerts, in fact, does that size of around 10,000 sometimes become a limitation because they can only come for a one-evening performance and just by the class that they fit in, they want a different venue? Does that sometimes happen in terms of working out contracts?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: It's very challenging when you look across the country and you look at Vancouver with 20,000 seats, Calgary and Edmonton are around 18,000 seats, and Saskatoon with 15,000 seats, Winnipeg with 16,000 seats, Hamilton with 17,500 seats, Toronto with 20,000, Montreal with 21,000, Quebec City with 17,000, and you look at Halifax with 10,000. So it is a challenge. So the concerts that are going across the country - to move all of the equipment, in many cases it's 15 trailer trucks that come to Halifax to bring all the equipment, the stage, et cetera, and if you look at the cost of coming from Montreal to Halifax and are somewhat challenged by the number of seats, it depends on the act, it depends on the ability for the act to sell the facility out, whether they're able to stay in Halifax for two nights, which brings 20,000 seats, and many times that happens.

So there is no question that we get bypassed on a number of occasions because of the size of our facility. So if we were able to increase that size on a go-forward basis, we will bring more concerts. Although, again, as I mentioned, I'm extremely pleased with the track record that we've had here in Halifax and Nova Scotia. We've brought some wonderful events here, we continue to, and I see us continuing to do that in the future, but that opportunity would only expand upon itself if we were able to find a facility with more seats.

MR. GLAVINE: In terms of the events that are brought into the Metro Centre or conventions, and you've referenced in particular conventions are difficult to have margins

of profit on and, of course, the real benefit is the larger business of metro and the province, but are there some events that you almost have to bring to the province that, in fact, have very little margin of profit but it's part of being in this business?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: That would be the case in almost every event that we bring here. We are challenged, because all of those cities I mentioned earlier in regard to the Halifax Metro Centre similarly are competitors to us in the convention business and they equally want to grow their economy. So they're prepared to subsidize and remember too, here in Halifax, we don't own a hotel - not that I'm suggesting we do. So we don't sell bedrooms, we simply sell and rent out space for people to come here.

So really we have to be competitive and to be competitive we have to charge costs that will allow - in many cases our associations are not-for-profit associations and they, as well, are running national meetings and conventions to earn monies to continue to run their business. So it is a highly competitive business but the reason we are in business, especially in our convention facilities, is to help grow our provincial and our municipal economy. So the reasons for us being in business are clearly to fill those hotels, the restaurants, the taxi cabs, bring people to our airport, et cetera, and we recognize that on an ongoing basis that will continue to be the case and we will be challenged by competition.

MR. GLAVINE: I would just like to reflect what you have said. Very recently I was a participant in a world recreational hockey tournament in Quebec City. They attracted 167 teams, 12 nations, and the closing banquet was a bit of a defining moment because our team from the Annapolis Valley, you know, we kind of looked around and said, gee, it's held every four years, wouldn't it be great to have this in Halifax. Of course, I met with a few of the board, and I eventually hope to meet with you, Mr. MacGillivray, but it was defining because we wouldn't have, I don't think, a room here that could host a banquet of 3,200 to 3,500 people. That's what there was for our closing banquet. To be there again, at an international event, we all understand and it is brought home to us again this week, the importance of doing that in Halifax.

When I met with one of their board and selection for this event, it got modernized, I think, about 12 years ago, it has been held in Toronto, held in Ottawa and Quebec City. Quebec City's benefit was going to be $20 million to the city for this event. One of the little sidebars was that they were taking all of the memorabilia and paraphernalia and all those sales and their goal was to top what they did in Ottawa, which was to give $800,000 to Sick Children's Hospital. Quebec City was hoping to hit the $1 million mark, that they would turn over to Sick Children's Hospital. So I think sometimes we lose the fact of the bigger picture, the bigger impact that an event has on here.

However, I just want to get back to the fact that the next four or five years then, Mr. MacGillivray, could be challenging in the current facility is what you're saying. We don't want to see layoffs, we don't want to see negativity. What would be something you would

be saying to Nova Scotians or, more importantly, being here in Province House, to government, that could be an assist while you're in a transition period?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Well, obviously it would be helpful to alleviate some of the tax costs that we have in our facility, the fact that we have increasing maintenance costs, the fact that we'll be facing increased operating costs from a power perspective, et cetera. So a subsidy to be able to continue to do that and operate our facilities, which we will do in an efficient manner, certainly it is a conversation that we will have with the Province of Nova Scotia and have had some discussions in that regard.

I do want to comment on the adult recreational hockey, I should have mentioned it earlier in my conversation. Along with the International Ice Hockey Federation Men's World Hockey Championship, we are running a world recreational hockey championship as well for men's hockey. It will be as big or bigger in the fact that all of the countries that are coming here, plus many others, will have representative teams in Halifax as we speak.

[10:30 a.m.]

As you indicate, the men's recreational hockey brings a lot of money to your local economy because they pay their way to come here, they spend a lot of money while they're here because they bring families and friends with them. So we are in some very serious discussions of trying to be able to make that a bi-annual or an annual event on a go-forward basis of bringing these many countries back to Halifax. We think the success of this year's tournament will hopefully allow us to do that. So we do recognize the need to look at those particular events as well.

MR. GLAVINE: For my last question, if you were to have to make a decision around being in the heart of Halifax versus moving to Exhibition Park, as you have referenced, are there any initial studies being done or planned about the possible impact if a location change is made with a new development?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: We have done studies in the past and it is very clear to us the results of those studies indicate downtown Halifax is where the people want to be, downtown Halifax is where the infrastructure is and downtown Halifax is where the business case is, to achieve the success. I'll give you an example - it could be Exhibition Park, it could be Burnside, it could be out by the Halifax International Airport - if we were to locate a new Metro Centre, for example there, people would go to the event because they want to go to the event. The Dixie Chicks, if they were there, you would go there. But when you went there you would go and you would enjoy the concert, you might buy a hot dog or a cold beverage of some kind but then you'd get in your car and you'd go home.

If we have those businesses in downtown Halifax - remember for a Moosehead hockey game when a person comes to our facility in downtown Halifax, if there's 6,000,

7,000, 8,000, 9,000 people there, not only do they spend the money to buy the ticket and spend the money within our facilities, an average of $7 or so a night, they spend $42 in downtown Halifax as a result of being there.

If that facility was somewhere on the outskirts of the city, they would drive because they want to go to the event and they would drive back home and we would not pick up that incremental expenditure that we do from being in the downtown core, plus that's where the people want to go.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. The time has expired for the Liberal caucus. I recognize Mr. Dunn. You have until 10:44 a.m.

MR. DUNN: Just a few comments, a couple of questions. You mentioned earlier, a couple of times, in 1995 and 2007, where you're using your own cash flow for operating costs. All I want to say about that is it's a remarkable achievement with the constraints, demands and challenges of today's world.

A question I have is how difficult has it been to entice big name concerts to Halifax? I'm referring to our facilities that are certainly smaller than other larger centres that you referenced across the country. Have you had many opportunities where negotiations with big names have dropped off very quickly because of our smaller facilities?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: There's no question, we continue to talk to concert promoters on a weekly basis. They, in turn, are looking for opportunities to bring concerts to Canada. In many cases we're able to encourage the concert promoter to include Halifax, but clearly the concert promoter will look at - and the concert itself - what is the cost to go to Halifax? What is the cost to be in Nova Scotia? When they leave Montreal or Quebec City as the last stop, coming east, they have to move a lot of equipment and they have a lot of road people. Unless they, in many cases, are able to stay two nights, which they normally don't want to do, they want to come for one night and move on to the next opportunity, we are challenged to bring some of those concerts.

I must say that I am pleased with the concerts we've been able to achieve for Halifax and Nova Scotia. I see that continuing to be very strong, but there is no question that the mega-concerts that go to the Bell Centre with 21,000 seats, in many cases don't come forward to Halifax - although we do get a good mix here. If we had a larger facility, there's no question we would have more concerts coming to Halifax on an annual basis.

MR. DUNN: Earlier you mentioned the Pictou County Junior A Crushers and they recently hosted the Fred Page Cup. The end result was very positive, we not only won the Fred Page Cup, but we had a beehive of activity in the county with motels, restaurants and

other businesses reaping the benefits of that particular event. What do you estimate the financial value of this particular International Ice Hockey Federation tournament for this area?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Just for the City of Halifax and the Province of Nova Scotia alone the economic benefits from that event will be $30 million-plus. That's just for our portion of the actual event itself, so it is a significant event for the City of Halifax and the Province of Nova Scotia. Last year we reported about $170 million that we were able to drive into the Nova Scotia economy as a result of our facilities and our business - that one event alone this year will drive over $30 million, thus we'll probably increase that $170 million in this particular fiscal year. So they have a significant positive impact upon the city and the province as a result.

Plus, you can't measure the marketing opportunity that it brings to our province and to our city when you have over 750 million people from around the world - especially all through Europe, which is a major opportunity for us on a go-forward basis - are watching our city and our province as they watch those games on a daily basis in those marketplaces. It's a huge opportunity that we want to continue to participate in and help grow our economy here in Nova Scotia.

MR. DUNN: Just prior to passing over to my colleague, Chuck Porter, again I want to thank you for your dedication, your vision and your determination. Your board has certainly been instrumental in so many wonderful events in the past years, and I'm looking forward to the future, thank you.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: I recognize Mr. Porter. You have until 10:44 a.m.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you very much for being here today. I want to concur with a lot of things that the member for Cape Breton South had mentioned, about the passion that was shown in acquiring such a centre in Sydney and how important that is, but again how important the one in Halifax certainly continues to be. You're right about the buzz. Any night, it doesn't matter what weeknight it is, you come to town - I know we come in from Windsor on occasion to hockey games and things like that - and you can't find a parking place, number one, and you can barely find a seat in a restaurant, number two. You need to arrange to come early, and even that is getting to be a challenge these days.

You're right, there's a great deal of spinoff from all of these events, no matter if it's a hockey game, concerts or what it is, it draws wonderful people. Just on that, those numbers, it's great that we're able to fill it most of the time - somewhere between 8,000 and 10,000, whatever the numbers are - for events. How many people, as we move forward and look toward the new, potential, a new or expanded Metro Centre, or whatever we're going to call

it - do we know how many people are unable to secure a ticket, say, to concerts or very, very popular events? I know when the Mooseheads were playing, fairly good numbers - certainly the years that they've been into the finals and so on, it's been sold out, it's been hard to get a ticket. Do we have any idea how many people are being - well, I'll use the words "turned away", unable to secure tickets?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: I could not give you - we have not researched that. I could not give you a clear number, but obviously it would depend on the event. We're able to have a major concert of a particular superstar and we have only 10,000 seats, there's probably several thousands of people who would like to go who are unable to go to that particular event, but there are other events that we aren't challenged by that. It would depend, again, on what the concert is or what the event is.

I can share with you, because of the size of the facility, I think we would reflect upon, in the Metro Centre alone if we have 10,000 people in that facility, we can only service about 40 per cent of the customers who are there because of the size of the facility and the lack of concession availability because of the size that we presently operate in. So there alone, from a business case, with a larger facility with more concession opportunities available and more seats we would grow the business case to provide more profit to that facility on a go-forward basis. So that gives you an idea, from the size of the facility and the lack of being able to attain the full business case.

MR. PORTER: So that wasn't something that was foreseen, I guess, in the building of this facility, or . . .

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Well I'm sure when it was thought about back in the 1970s, it was more than adequate to provide the needs of our municipality and our province. But as we have grown over the years and have perhaps looked at more opportunities to bring to our province and our city, certainly we are challenged by the number of seats that are there.

MR. PORTER: And we've certainly hosted some big shows here, superstars, as you said, music entertainers whereby we've hosted two and/or three, maybe, shows to accommodate the number of people going - the sellout is quite incredible actually for what we would say is a little city in little old Nova Scotia. It's very incredible the people who are coming here and you continue to bring here, which is great. We look forward to what will come.

How much time, I often wonder, does it take to secure things like the games? You know the hockey games are one thing, and I know that you look years ahead on those but things like these big concerts that we've heard about recently, you get rumours that they're coming and then they're not coming, but how long are you actually working on them to secure them?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Some could for several weeks or months. In many cases we put hundreds of hours into these efforts. We do have a business that we also run, called Events Halifax. We do pursue a lot of those concerts through that particular facility.

Again, we don't talk publicly very much about the opportunities we're looking at because, as you indicate, many don't come to fruition. Fortunately, because of being in the mix on a regular basis, on a weekly/daily basis, we're able to bring many here. So it's full time, 52 weeks a year. We have three individuals working on the particular subject of bringing events, which include concerts, to Halifax and Nova Scotia.

MR. PORTER: Is there a ratio of those that you are seeking out, or are they seeking us out here in Nova Scotia ?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Well we're always seeking them out. Obviously years ago, perhaps the phone rang more often. This day and age the phone doesn't ring as often as it used to because we're in a highly competitive business. Take Events Halifax alone - when we started that in the late 1990s there were about five cities across the country recognized or had the vision to recognize the need to put a company like that in place to bring these large events to our city. As we speak, there are over 50 across the country now, so they're starting to recognize the ability to drive their provincial economy by bringing these events to their locations.

MR. PORTER: Thank you. I'm bouncing around just a bit because I'm limited on time. I want to go the basketball for a bit. I've been to a few games and certainly the crowds seem to be growing. Are you and your staff doing anything to promote the basketball? I do see some ads on TV, more so now than I had initially, but I mean that's a great sport, there are a lot of . . .

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: Are you talking mostly about the team that was here this year?

MR. PORTER: Yes, the Rainmen.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: The team that was here this year, the Rainmen, will come back next year, there will be a league that they will play in. We work with them on a regular basis to ensure we are able to keep that particular business in the Halifax Metro Centre in our city. We work diligently with the owner, Andre Livingston, who clearly has committed himself to this municipality and province to grow his product called basketball.

We think he has a strong future. We are working diligently with him to find the right league for him to operate in. As you know, Halifax and Nova Scotia have had successful basketball franchises, but in many cases successful franchises in difficult and challenging leagues, and we're continuing to work with him to find that league that will give more

consistency on a go-forward basis. So I think you'll see the Rainmen in Halifax for many years into the future.

MR. PORTER: I'm glad to hear that. I mean that is some very entertaining basketball, some great players, style of play.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: It's a great product. CIS basketball as well - we will continue to work with the local people to try and bring that event back at some point in the future.

MR. PORTER: You mentioned about the number of people who come to town and you talked about the international hockey that is about to be upon us and the rec. tournament going along with that. Of the people who come, or the people who watch maybe even more so, any idea how many of those people will return, you know the foreign hockey players that come to our country - do you have any idea about the numbers of those folks that might come back to Nova Scotia for a visit?

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: It's interesting you bring that up. If you read the paper this morning about the team that was in Port Hawkesbury, the players were speaking openly about how well they were received and how much they've enjoyed being in that community. I'm sure it will allow them the opportunity to come back in the future. As I said earlier with conventions, people who come here for major meetings and conventions alone, 48 per cent of them will spend three to five days in Nova Scotia pre or post their event. Almost 50 per cent of them will return the next year with a family member and/or a friend to experience Nova Scotia from a tourism perspective. So it does drive a lot into our provincial economy as a result of bringing people from around the world and across the country as a result of meetings, conventions, sporting and cultural events. So yes, it is significant and it certainly adds to helping to grow our economy.

MR. PORTER: I know from where I live in Windsor, we have Kings Edgehill School there, and as you may be aware we've had some interesting hockey players from foreign countries come for that specific reason - to get involved in the more North American style of hockey and to promote themselves, show their talent. They've certainly done that and moved on.

I see my time is about up, so I thank you very much for being here this morning, it's very much appreciated.

MADAM CHAIR: At this time we would like to offer the floor to Mr. MacGillivray or Mr. McInnes to make some closing comments.

MR. MACGILLIVRAY: I would make a comment about the fact that I appreciate the opportunity to be here to help clarify the business that we're in. I hope I've clarified or made

it easier for you to understand the nature of our business. We are in the business of driving the economy of Nova Scotia on a forward basis in a positive way. I hope that we have shared with you the ways that we feel that we can continue to do that, the tools that we will require to continue to grow that and to keep Halifax and Nova Scotia as a prime destination across this country and around the world, or a place that people want to come. Thank you very much.

[10:45 a.m.]

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you and thank you to all of our guests. At this time I would like to propose a motion that we agree to pursue documents - there were a number of documents that were referred to during the questions. If you remember, last week, the discussion had been had that what we would do at the end of a meeting would be sort of itemize those documents and formalize what it is we're looking for. The Clerk has provided me with this list: a copy of the KPMG report regarding supplementary pension; documents regarding Cabinet approval for contract and supplementary pension; documents approved by Cabinet with respect to changes to the contract; a Cabinet report with respect to the International Ice Hockey Federation agreement; and updated governance procedures for the Trade Centre Limited. These are the documents that we referred to.

Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: Yes, thank you, that is a complete list. I think there's one point of clarification that in each case where the Cabinet is referred to it is not the documents leading up to decision that I'm seeking - because we all know that in the normal course we don't ask for or receive those - it is the Cabinet Order coming out of the process showing that a Cabinet decision has been made that we're looking for and those ought to be, in every case, a public document.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes. Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye.

Mr. Manning MacDonald.

MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Just one point. Having been a member of a previous Cabinet, I can only say that Mr. Steele is perhaps right in saying that a Cabinet document that comes out of Cabinet making an appointment is a public document, but I might remind the committee that Cabinet also makes decisions in Cabinet that are Cabinet decisions and stand as Cabinet decisions and are confidential decisions. I don't know, I have no idea whether that applies in this case, but there are decisions made by Cabinets over the years that are sealed decisions for a period of time. Now, I don't know whether that's germane to this one or not.

MADAM CHAIR: It's a point that's well taken. It's an ongoing conversation that we have with Executive Council with respect to the powers of this committee.

The motion is on the floor. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye, Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

At this stage, we're going to take a short break to allow our guest to leave - thank you very much for being here today - we'll reconvene in camera for a very short time.

[The public portion of the committee adjourned at 10:48 a.m.]