HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

Ms. Maureen MacDonald (Chair)

Mr. Chuck Porter (Vice-Chairman)

Mr. Keith Colwell

In Attendance:

Ms. Mora Stevens

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Claude Carter

Deputy Auditor General

HALIFAX, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 2006

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

8:00 A.M.

CHAIR

Ms. Maureen MacDonald

MADAM CHAIR: We'll get underway. The purpose of today's meeting is to make some decisions about witnesses. We've already approved Conserve Nova Scotia and the SAP implementation. We didn't have the PC witness list at the time of our first subcommittee meeting, and we have this now.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: We can shorten the list.

MADAM CHAIR: We have a new one?

MR. COLWELL: No, we could shorten the PC's list, we can just call the deputy.

MADAM CHAIR: Well, they're all Education-related issues, aren't they, with different focuses.

Well, I'll open the floor up for some discussion then around this additional list that we have from the PC caucus. It does contain items that are all with respect to the Department of Education.

MR. COLWELL: I don't believe I'm going to say this, but the Liberal and the NDP caucuses have had an opportunity to bring their number one, or whatever they wanted, forward. I don't believe I'm saying this, but I think maybe the PCs should get to choose one of theirs.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: I thought that was what we had agreed to, we would just go one, one and one around the room, when we talked about it initially.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes. Generally speaking, we try to reach consensus on how we work with the list. I have no problem doing that. These are the issues that your caucus would like to deal with in the order of priority.

MR. PORTER: Yes, I was just looking, and I think that's fine, the order is fine.

MADAM CHAIR: That means we would bring in the Department of Education with respect to the Options and Opportunities program. I have no difficulty doing this. I have to say, though, I'm wondering how the PC list works with respect to the objectives of the Public Accounts Committee, that was my only question when I saw this list. I wondered if this is the proper committee to have some of these items before us, rather than the Human Resources Committee, which I think deals with Education matters. The committee structure is such that different committees are allocated responsibilities for different government departments.

This committee really looks at government expenditures, the expenditures of public dollars rather than the examination of a particular program, in terms of its program function in a department. For example, if we were looking at financial control issues in the Department of Community Services, if we were looking at a federal-provincial agreement on housing and the fact that money hadn't been spent that had been allocated, those kinds of things come in front of the Public Accounts Committee.

However, to look at the operation of a particular program or department in a non-financial way, in a content way, it would generally go to another committee. That's all that I sort of felt when I saw this list. So if it's the will of the subcommittee members that we just take these as is, then that's fine, but I did have some questions. Learning for Life II update, I really don't see that as being . . .

MR. PORTER: Well, we're talking about the financial aspects of each of these programs, are we on track or are we not on track, we're still delving into a financial piece of this, the public purse. I guess that's why we see them as relevant, just like any of the others here. I guess you could look down the different lists . . .

MADAM CHAIR: I see the Nova Scotia Student Assistance Program, and the Student Assistance Program, Nos. 4 and 5. I'm not sure exactly what the difference is. I'm sure one is for post-secondary and - I don't know, I'm not really sure why there's a discrepancy between those. Can you explain that, what the difference is between No. 4 and No. 5?

MR. PORTER: No, I can't actually. This list was given to me. I don't know. I would say they are two different things. I can check on that, though.

MADAM CHAIR: And the Learning for Life. Again, it appears that we're looking at the deputy or the department coming in and presenting, giving an update on their program, when that would really, more properly, belong - Learning for Life II update, that more properly belongs in front of the Human Resources Committee. That's my view. I don't know - again, it's up to the committee. I find that this will eat up a Public Accounts Committee meeting when we should be looking at the Public Accounts and public expenditures. There is another committee that deals with this.

I can see the Nova Scotia Community College Growth Program, if we're going to focus on expenditures. But some of these other items . . .

MR. PORTER: I think that all of these would be focused on the expenditures and the financial pieces. This isn't an issue of what committee we're talking about. Education, as you well know, is a huge expenditure to the province, and we want to make sure that the books are in order and we want to review this. In my opinion, I can look at your list as well and they could maybe fall under - you have the Student Loan Program delivery down there, maybe that would fall under Education, just as an example. I see this as reviewing the public money, not necessarily whether there's a right or a wrong in it, but this committee, in my opinion, is to be reviewing the money whether there's an issue or not.

MADAM CHAIR: It is, but I'm just trying to distinguish between those issues that properly belong in front of the Public Accounts Committee and those issues that more properly belong in front the Human Resources Committee, that's all.

MR. COLWELL: Madam Chair, I agree, the Human Resources Committee has taken the Student Loan Program in some detail, we're going to work on that very shortly. The problem we have here, and I don't disagree, is that the PC caucus has only put Education issues forward here. To be a little bit brash, I might suggest that maybe it's the deputy minister who answers no questions who might be a good person for them to bring here. It doesn't mean we're limited to exactly that topic when the deputy comes here, so perhaps if our caucuses becomes a little bit inventive, we can ask some broader questions of the deputy minister, and the chair's wisdom can keep the deputy minister's answers to a very short response. It might be quite useful to have him in here and grill him on some other topics outside of this.

MADAM CHAIR: Let's look at the three lists. Education and the Department of Education is certainly on the three lists. Student assistance is certainly on the three lists.

MR. COLWELL: That has gone to the Human Resources Committee, though, in detail.

MADAM CHAIR: Is it?

MR. COLWELL: Yes.

MADAM CHAIR: The Student Assistance Program, and when is that scheduled?

MR. COLWELL: The next meeting, I believe, isn't it?

MS. MORA STEVENS (Legislative Committee Clerk): I think so.

MR. COLWELL: And then possibly the meeting after that, as well.

MADAM CHAIR: That's the Human Resources Committee?

MR. COLWELL: Yes.

MADAM CHAIR: Then there really doesn't seem to be a good rationale for duplicating the work of another committee, if they're going to be examining that in more detail. I think, additionally, the Liberal caucus has the Department of Education with respect to special education, No. 23, and the NDP caucus has it regarding APSEA, which in a way does have some bearing to special education. APSEA is very specifically talked about in the Auditor General's June Report. So I'm wondering if we could bring Education, then, as our third witness, with an opportunity to talk about the Options and Opportunities program, but in addition to focus on APSEA and special education.

MR. COLWELL: What is APSEA?

MADAM CHAIR: The Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority. It's for deaf and hard of hearing.

MR. COLWELL: Oh yes, we talked about that in the auditor's report.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes, it was in the auditor's report. In that way we can accommodate the PC list and their interest in getting Education in front of us, but we will really be staying within the parameters of the Public Accounts Committee. Is that agreed?

MR. PORTER: So it's APSEA, and what was the other one?

MADAM CHAIR: The Special Education Program, No. 23 on the Liberal caucus list.

MR. COLWELL: That's fine with us.

MR. PORTER: That's fine.

MADAM CHAIR: What I would ask Mr. Porter is if you could, again, speak with your colleagues, maybe get some clarification around Nos. 4 and 5, what the thinking was, between the difference there, because No. 5 may be thinking about student assistance in the P-12, and maybe around special needs, who knows? That would be one thing.

Another thing, if you could get some clarity around the focus of some of these Education matters, in a way that does speak to the financial concerns and focus rather than, necessarily, the program concerns. If you want to bring back some additional ideas, in terms of any other department, we would be open to those as well.

I think we need to continue on, though, and give the clerk a few more. She has two approved, one which we will bring back to the full committee for approval now, which is the Department of Education vis-à-vis special needs issues, but we need to move forward with some additional items.

You have both the NDP and the Liberal lists there. I think maybe we should go to these. I want to raise an item that's not on our list, but I think is of great concern to the public and is an issue that we might consider here this morning, and that is this question of the Legionella over at the VG Hospital and the costs associated with actually addressing that. The acting CEO has announced a $50,000 pilot project. There were other options considered, options that I'm not sure we really have all the information on and certainly could seek because they were more costly. There is a significant infrastructure deficit, I guess I would say, in the Capital DHA. That has been fairly well documented. I'm sure the VG falls into part of that.

I'm just bringing this forward as an issue that we might consider just because it's out there in the public domain and there is some public concern about it. If it were of interest to members of the subcommittee, I would recommend that maybe we put it as the fourth item on the NDP list. We still have these other matters that I think are quite pressing as well, although it could come up - whatever your wish.

Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: That sounds fine to me. That's a relevant issue. It does have significant costs attached to it, from what I've been hearing in the media. It would be nice to clear the air on that, so I wouldn't have any problems if you move that up to the next one on your list.

MADAM CHAIR: Okay. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: It makes no difference to me.

MADAM CHAIR: Okay. So that would require the Department of Health, plus, I would think, the CEO of the Capital District Health Authority, the acting CEO.

MR. COLWELL: Probably the Department of Transportation and Public Works part because they're the people who actually have to do the work and cost it all out and everything.

MADAM CHAIR: Okay. The Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation is on your list.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I would say that would be the next one.

MADAM CHAIR: It also could be quite timely, there's a big conference happening here fairly soon on gaming.

MR. PORTER: Are you setting dates for these at this point in time? We're obviously prioritizing here.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes. What will happen is Mora will contact the various departments with suggested dates and then, depending on their availability, it gets scheduled. How many do you need?

MS. STEVENS: As many as you can give me.

MADAM CHAIR: As many as we can give you, okay. So we have . . .

MR. PORTER: We're certainly into the new year at this point.

[8:15 a.m.]

MADAM CHAIR: No, not even close because we meet weekly. This committee meets every Wednesday morning. (Interruptions)

MR. PORTER: I'm thinking of something else, yes.

MS. STEVENS: One of the other committees that you're on.

MADAM CHAIR: This committee is very active and we cover a lot of territory in a short period of time.

So we have the Gaming Corporation. Well, we could go back to the Department of Finance regarding the HST removal and rebate on home heat as well.

MR. COLWELL: What about the PC caucus, they should really have one in here, too. Not that I'm standing up for them here, don't get me wrong, but that's sort of our unofficial - have you got anything else besides education that you can put on the list?

MR. PORTER: No, these five things are the ones we have and in the order that we want to see brought forward.

MADAM CHAIR: Well, we could do the Nova Scotia Community College.

MR. COLWELL: And the heat program you want to do?

MADAM CHAIR: And then we can do the heat program, yes.

MR. COLWELL: That's No. 6 on our list as well.

MADAM CHAIR: The HST, it's there on your list, yes.

MR. COLWELL: And then we'd like to do the Petroleum Products Pricing Regulations.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes.

MR. COLWELL: So we're back to the PCs again?

MADAM CHAIR: All that's really left is the Learning for Life II update. Again, I really question whether this committee is the proper place for an update on the Learning for Life II Program.

MR. COLWELL: It probably should go to the Human Resources Committee.

MADAM CHAIR: I really think it should go to . . .

MS. STEVENS: They did that last year too, and they might - I know you're the new chairman, and I'm not sure if it has been discussed or not, to have an update on that.

MR. COLWELL: Not yet, I don't believe.

MS. STEVENS: I'm pretty sure they did it last summer, but I would have to check with Darlene on that.

MADAM CHAIR: Why don't we ask the HR Committee. Have you set your full agenda?

MR. COLWELL: No.

MADAM CHAIR: We'll ask the HR Committee if they would like to examine that in their committee, and wait to hear back. Then we could schedule it on this committee, if they have other items on their agenda. I think, at this time, that would be my preference, to see a topic like that go to another committee, so we can deal with the AG's Report and some of the things that were in that report.

We're back to, I think, at this stage, the NDP list. The next item is the Corpus Sanchez review on it. Do you have that?

MS. STEVENS: I'm just thinking, I don't know that report.

MADAM CHAIR: It's the $1 million contract to oversee health services, and this DHA and the IWK. Back to the Liberal list, we can look at property assessments.

MR. COLWELL: And that will give us how many all together?

MS. STEVENS: Seven.

MR. COLWELL: Seven weeks, that's almost two months.

MS. STEVENS: Plus we have the two that are already on.

MR. COLWELL: So we're over two months. That will almost take it to Christmas.

MS. STEVENS: Right now, there might be some dates, because I won't find out about SAP and Finance until the 28^th, because both deputies are away and they're trying to schedule everything. So there might be a week or two in there that isn't booked, which sometimes happens when you start up again. It's not weekly, but the more I have, the more I can fill in.

MADAM CHAIR: Well, can we put the Department of Community Services, regarding the AG's audit on as well, because that would be easy to schedule, I would think. I shouldn't say that, but . . .

MS. STEVENS: It's easier than bringing in three or four various departments.

MADAM CHAIR: Just to give Mora some flexibility, so she can get it in. But that's plenty, that gives us plenty on our list.

MR. COLWELL: Once we put that on, we would want to get another one on, too.

MADAM CHAIR: Okay.

MR. COLWELL: I would like to go, maybe, with the Offshore/Onshore Technologies Association of Nova Scotia. We'll just jump down our list a little bit.

MS. STEVENS: OTANS.

MR. COLWELL: OTANS. I think that will probably do us.

MADAM CHAIR: Absolutely.

MR. COLWELL: The PC caucus may bring some other ones in.

MR. PORTER: In my opinion this is being dominated by the chair and the decision that she wants at this point in time. I think that the five we brought forward are five that we should be looking at with education being a very big cost to this province. I tend to think that all of them should be on there, whether we feel they're updates or not. I think they are good topics, and that they should be added to this agenda. I don't think they belong at HR, or portions of them may belong in HR under other issues, but I think these are of great financial concern. So I just wanted to make that point, and bring that forward. I believe they belong here.

MADAM CHAIR: Well, they are important topics.

MR. PORTER: I believe they do belong here, with the amount of money we spend on education in this province and they should be reviewed, but it doesn't necessarily have to be an issue outstanding in the media, in my opinion, with regard to what comes to this committee. So I want to make my point very clear there.

MADAM CHAIR: So noted. Okay, any other business? Yes, Claude.

MR. CLAUDE CARTER: A quick question in terms of the past practices of the committee, in certain circumstances where our office has done recent work in areas, whether or not the committee wants an in camera briefing on the specific work that we've done in those areas. The special education and APSEA, and APSEA was really the culmination of a two-year project on special education; the other one is the Community Services audit in the July report. We've done work on the Department of Finance's SAP over a number of years, so again, if it's the committee's wish that we make ourselves available for a briefing, you can work that out.

MADAM CHAIR: Absolutely.

MS. STEVENS: Yes, the Department of Finance is very big. You've done a lot of work on the SAP and especially the new members on the committee might really enjoy that.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes, absolutely, I assumed that would be part of how we would do it.

The other thing that we still have - well, I guess it has been scheduled now but we are meeting with the Auditor General. We will have a meeting in camera for an hour, and then a two-hour meeting.

MR. CARTER: Really all I'm saying is we're available for at least those three areas where we've done work recently, and to come in and try to help the members get in a better position to ask their questions.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes, absolutely, thank you for that. Is there any other business?

MR. PORTER: I had one question with regard to the list, I'm thinking about it. With regard to Conserve Nova Scotia, that's not even set up yet, I guess, at this point in time. My understanding is that this department is not in place.

MS. STEVENS: There's nothing in place in the department. The legislation is supposed to be brought forward this fall.

MR. PORTER: I know it's on the list there.

MS. STEVENS: It is. Heather Foley Melvin, I think she's the only staff person who has been attached to that.

MADAM CHAIR: That's right.

MS. STEVENS: She was called, she's very happy to - she's more than welcome to attend. She has given me a couple of potential dates that were clear for her. As for research, we've sort of gone outside of the province, to say what Ontario has and what B.C. has, because there's really nothing that has been set up in Nova Scotia yet.

MR. PORTER: I guess, further on that, the intent here is to question the financial reasoning behind this committee?

MADAM CHAIR: The intent is to look at exactly what's on there. This branch of government has been established, there is a staff person in the job and they are receiving a salary. It has never been looked at in the Nova Scotia Legislature. Dollars have been allocated for this, so really this committee is going to look at the appointment and the mandate of Conserve Nova Scotia. We'll hear from the CEO who's in that position and we'll have an opportunity to find out what's going on, what they're up to.

MR. PORTER: Okay, I guess I just had some questions with regard to her being the only one in this committee at that time and her not being the one to appoint herself - you talked about appointment and mandate.

MADAM CHAIR: Well, if you want to recommend that we call the Premier, if you want to make a motion for that.

MR. PORTER: That's not what I'm recommending at all. However, my only concern is that we are going to be questioning the one and only staff who has no committee at this point in time and I'm not sure whether there's enough there at this point, that's all. I just wanted to bring that forward, whether we would be better served elsewhere, but I leave that to you.

MADAM CHAIR: Yes. Well, I think we've already started down this road and with good reason.

I'll ask if there is any more business, any other business?

MR. PORTER: No, not for me.

MADAM CHAIR: Okay, then we stand adjourned.

[The subcommittee adjourned at 8:26 a.m.]