HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

Ms. Maureen MacDonald (Chair)

Mr. Chuck Porter (Vice-Chairman)

Mr. Alfred MacLeod

Mr. Keith Bain

Mr. Graham Steele

Mr. David Wilson (Sackville-Cobequid)

Mr. Keith Colwell

Mr. Stephen McNeil

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Mr. Alfred MacLeod was replaced by Mr. Patrick Dunn.]

[Ms. Diana Whalen was replaced by Mr. Leo Glavine.]

In Attendance:

Ms. Mora Stevens

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Jaques Lapointe

Auditor General of Nova Scotia

Mr. Alan Horgan

Assistant Auditor General

WITNESSES

Conserve Nova Scotia

Ms. Heather Foley Melvin

President/Chief Executive Officer

Mr. Allan Crandlemire

Executive Director

HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2006

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

9:00 A.M.

CHAIR

Ms. Maureen MacDonald

VICE-CHAIRMAN

Mr. Chuck Porter

MADAM CHAIR: Good morning, I'd like to call the committee to order. I'd like to begin by welcoming here today guests we have as witnesses in front of us, Ms. Heather Foley Melvin, President and Chief Executive Officer of Conserve Nova Scotia, and Mr. Allan Crandlemire, Executive Director of Conserve Nova Scotia. I'd also like to welcome Mark Denomme, a young man sitting over by his mother, Colleen. He is a Grade 9 student at A.J. Smeltzer Junior High School, and he is accompanying his mother to work for the day, so welcome.

We will begin in the usual manner of introductions so that Hansard will know who is sitting at which desks. This will be followed by a brief opening statement from Conserve Nova Scotia, and our questioning in the usual manner. Before we do the introductions, though, I would ask Ms. Heather Foley Melvin if there are any additional documents pertaining to her appointment beyond the documents that we have received that she might have available for us today.

I think the letter that we sent to you asked for any documents pertaining to your appointment, including but not limited to the following: we had listed job description, contract, CV, but there may be other documents, as well. If you have documents with you, we would appreciate if they'd be made available to the clerk for members of the committee.

MS. HEATHER FOLEY MELVIN: The only remaining documents that are available were responded to in a FOIPOP request yesterday. So, I don't believe there are any documents at all that aren't publicly available at this point.

MADAM CHAIR: I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, were responded to in a FOIPOP yesterday. Were they released yesterday?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Two FOIPOP requests, so I think there was concern that one hadn't been addressed. I believe the Treasury and Policy Board had answered to that FOIPOP request yesterday afternoon. I do not have copies of that document.

MADAM CHAIR: So there are additional documents, but they're not available at this moment, is what you're saying?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: They were publicly requested.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. Can we now proceed with our introductions.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIR: We'll also have introductions from our Auditor General and his staff.

[The Auditor General and staff introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIR: Ms. Foley Melvin, the floor is now yours for your opening statements.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would also like to thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to you about Conserve Nova Scotia today. With me today is Allan Crandlemire, Executive Director of Conserve Nova Scotia.

Helping Nova Scotians deal with energy conservation issues is a very important responsibility. Since I was asked to lead Conserve Nova Scotia, I've been busy meeting with organizations across the province. These discussions have inspired my direction of Nova Scotia's new energy efficiency agency.

One thing that we all agreed on was that energy and its effect on climate change is one of the most important issues of our time. It is not something that we can ignore, but it is an issue where government can demonstrate leadership. That leadership will come from Conserve Nova Scotia. Conserve Nova Scotia is a new energy efficiency agency. We will be working to develop and deliver conservation and energy efficiency programs and policies for Nova Scotians. We will promote energy efficiency through

programs and innovative marketing techniques. We will raise awareness of energy efficiency issues among Nova Scotians. We will measure and track our progress. We will also act on our own and partner with other organizations on public education and social marketing activities to promote sustainable behaviour.

Higher energy prices aren't unique to Nova Scotia; in Canada and around the world energy prices are rising. Changes to our climate from our energy use are not unique to Nova Scotia either. To protect Nova Scotia for future generations all Nova Scotians need to make a profound change - change in how we use and don't use energy.

Achieving energy efficiency requires social change, but that won't happen overnight - creating awareness and changing behaviour will be key. That is why creating Conserve Nova Scotia is so important. Our goal is important and it is attainable. It will require a behaviour shift. This shift will help us all deal with the changing energy world. It will require each of us to make a commitment in our day-to-day lives to using less.

We have a lot of work to do. We know that 10 per cent of Nova Scotians haven't taken any steps to reducing their energy use. Our goal will be to reach out to these people. We know that 25 per cent of homeowners are planning energy efficient upgrades to their homes this year. Our goal will be to reach out to the people who are making changes in their home to help them discover other ways to reduce their energy use even more. Our goal will be to reach the other 75 per cent of homeowners to encourage changes in the way they use energy in their home. That's why bringing back the Nova Scotia EnerGuide for Houses Program was so important - this program gives homeowners practical advice on how to best achieve energy savings in their home.

Nova Scotia has some of the oldest housing stock in Canada. Our goal will be to encourage more Nova Scotians to take advantage of our Smart Energy Choices Program. Currently we offer five rebate programs - the EnerGuide for Houses Program that I just mentioned is one of them. We also partner with the Nova Scotia Home Builders' Association on the EnerGuide for New Houses Program. This program is helping new homeowners improve the energy performance rating of their home before it is built. The potential for longer-term energy savings provides real benefits to Nova Scotians.

We also offer rebates on wood and pellet stoves, rebates on domestic solar hot water heaters and our latest rebate announced on October 20^th, efficient oil furnaces and heating systems.

Providing rebates won't be our only focus. In fact, that is just part of what we plan to do at Conserve Nova Scotia. Education is also a key part of our mandate and of our Smart Energy Choices Program. We are developing innovative ways to help our young Nova Scotians make changes in how we use and don't use energy. After all, it is their Nova Scotia that we are all working to protect.

Helping all Nova Scotians reduce their energy use will not be an easy task. It is one that all of us need to work toward to take control of our energy costs. This will be the focus of Conserve Nova Scotia. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate the large print.

Mr. Steele, the floor is yours - you have 20 minutes.

MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Thank you very much. I'd like to start by registering my disappointment that this committee doesn't have before it all the documents that we asked for. Ms. Foley Melvin said that some documents were released pursuant to a freedom of information request yesterday, but that has nothing to do with this committee. We asked for all the relevant documents to be here, on our desks, a week before the hearing was held. So now we have a situation where apparently there are relevant documents out there which we don't have while we have Ms. Foley Melvin before us, so I am disappointed about that.

Now, Rodney MacDonald won the Conservative leadership on February 11^th of this year; on February 14^th a public announcement was made that you were to be the Premier's chief of staff; on June 23^rd a public announcement was made that you were no longer to be the Premier's chief of staff - when were you told that you would no longer be the chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe it was the Tuesday following the election.

MR. STEELE: And who was it who told you?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The Premier.

MR. STEELE: And did the Premier tell you in person or over the telephone?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It was in person.

MR. STEELE: Who else was in that meeting?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No one.

MR. STEELE: As closely as you can remember, how did that conversation go?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The results of that conversation were that I was asked to implement and create Conserve Nova Scotia, an energy efficiency agency for Nova Scotians and I had agreed to do that.

MR. STEELE: Okay, I didn't ask you the result of the conversation, I asked you how did the conversation go, what was said?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I agreed during that conversation to implement and create Conserve Nova Scotia.

MR. STEELE: Okay, but that's not what I asked you.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That's my answer.

MR. STEELE: Okay, but that's not what I asked you. You're here as a very highly paid public servant before the Public Accounts Committee of the Legislature, you don't get to decide which questions you will or won't answer. So my question is, how did that conversation go?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: My conversation with the Premier resulted in me accepting the creation and implementation of Conserve Nova Scotia and to lead that implementation process.

MR. STEELE: I didn't ask you the result, I asked you how the conversation went. Who said what?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I'm not at liberty to tell you that conversation word for word.

MR. STEELE: Not at liberty for what reason?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The Premier asked me if I would take on this great task, this very important task of creating an energy-efficiency agency in Nova Scotia, which I agreed to do.

MR. STEELE: You said you're not at liberty. What do you mean by not at liberty? What's preventing you . . .

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I feel that's a personal conversation.

MR. STEELE: But the result of it was that you left one job paid for out of the public purse and you accepted another job paid for out of the public purse. I think we're entitled to know. For example, what reason were you given that you would no longer be the chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Conserve Nova Scotia, which was brought forward in the election platform, is a very important agency. The Premier felt that I was the individual to lead that organization, and he asked me if I would do that.

MR. STEELE: What reason were you given that you would no longer be the chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Conserve Nova Scotia needed a leader with the skills that I have to lead the organization, and I was asked to do that by the Premier.

MR. STEELE: Did the Premier identify for you any deficiencies in your work as chief of staff that resulted in you no longer being the chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, he didn't.

MR. STEELE: So as far as you're concerned, there was no difficulty with the way you executed that function. There were no deficiencies, nothing that you could have done better and, in fact, the reason that you no longer have the job had nothing to do with your performance?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe I was tasked to create Conserve Nova Scotia, which the Premier feels is very important.

MR. STEELE: Who first raised the idea in that conversation that you would be offered another position other than chief of staff, was it you or the Premier?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It was the Premier.

MR. STEELE: Was it at that same meeting, on the Tuesday after the election?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, it was.

MR. STEELE: Did the Premier offer you a range of positions and ask you to choose between them, or did he offer you just the one?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: He offered me the opportunity, and asked if I would accept the opportunity to lead Conserve Nova Scotia.

MR. STEELE: So it's your position today, before this committee, that you lost your job as chief of staff through no fault, no deficiency, there were no problems identified to you, it's simply the Premier had in mind bigger and better things for you?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: This agency is extremely important to the Province of Nova Scotia.

MR. STEELE: Did the Premier at any time in the conversation identify for you any deficiencies in your performance as chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. STEELE: Did it leave you wondering why you were being dismissed from a job that you'd held for only four months?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was very excited about the new challenge.

MR. STEELE: When you were dismissed as chief of staff, did you receive any severance?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. STEELE: Did you receive any compensation of any kind whatsoever in compensation for the loss of your chief of staff position?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. STEELE: Did the Premier give you time to think about whether you wanted to accept the Conserve Nova Scotia position or did you decide right then and there?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was aware of Conserve Nova Scotia and what it would do, or what the creation of Conserve Nova Scotia would mean to Nova Scotians, and it was something that I was very interested in. I accepted the task.

MR. STEELE: Right then and there?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I accepted the task.

MR. STEELE: What discussion was there during your meeting with the Premier about your terms of employment at Conserve Nova Scotia?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: There were no discussions.

MR. STEELE: There were no discussions. For example, was there any discussion about your salary?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

[9:15 a.m.]

MR. STEELE: Was there any discussion about the terms of severance?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. STEELE: So the Premier offered you a job at that meeting and you accepted it, and neither of you discussed anything to do with the terms of employment?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Correct.

MR. STEELE: Now, I notice that - as a matter of fact your employment contract is dated July 12^th, which is about three weeks after the public announcement was made that you would be moving to this position. So let me note, Madam Chair, in passing my concern, the announcement of the appointment was made before the employment contract was finalized, which hardly put the government in a good bargaining position because they had already declared who the appointee would be before finalizing the terms of employment. That really leaves the government in a weak bargaining position, but then it doesn't seem like the government had in mind driving a very hard bargain with you.

So when was it discussed or finalized what the salary would be attached to this new position?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The details were reviewed with the Premier's deputy minister.

MR. STEELE: So during that private meeting between you and the Premier, there was no discussion about the fact the salary would be the same as the salary you had as chief of staff to the Premier, namely $131,000 a year?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Not that I recall.

MR. STEELE: Not that you recall. Are you having difficulty recalling the details of that conversation?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No. I answered the question earlier, no. I'll leave the answer as no.

MR. STEELE: There was no discussion. So it would have been a pleasant surprise for you when it turned out the salary of this new position was, indeed, to be $131,000. Who was it who told you that news?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I expect it was on the new contract when I signed the new contract.

MR. STEELE: Okay, but the contract was signed weeks later - three weeks later, it was signed. At some point, somebody would have broken the news to you that the salary attached to your new position was identical to the salary you had before. Who was it who told you that?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe it was on the contract when I read it. I don't believe that it was discussed.

MR. STEELE: So at any time in your conversation with the Premier or anyone else, did you ask for or state your expectation that your salary would be at that level?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe it was assumed that there would be a transfer of the contract to the new position.

MR. STEELE: Assumed by who?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That is what happened. It was assumed by me.

MR. STEELE: Did you assume it?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes.

MR. STEELE: Even though nobody had actually said it out loud, you assumed the salary would be the same?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I did.

MR. STEELE: Okay. One of the other features of the contract is the very generous severance provision. The contract is for a three-year period. In the private sector, the general rule is that you get one month severance for every year of service, by and large - there are exceptions, but by and large that's the general rule. Your contract has nine months' severance plus another month for every year of service. So even if you were dismissed from your job tomorrow, the Nova Scotia taxpayers would be on the hook for $100,000, which is nine months of your salary. At what point did the severance provisions of your contract get discussed? Was it with the Premier or was it with somebody else?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: As I said, the contract merely had a change of what the job responsibilities would be.

MR. STEELE: And so this very generous severance provision came as a pleasant surprise to you?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I assumed that would be there as well. I left, originally, a very successful career in the private sector to join the Public Service, and I intend to serve the Public Service as well as I served the private sector.

MR. STEELE: Okay, but did you ask for that generous severance provision?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Did I ask for it? During the transfer?

MR. STEELE: Did you ask for it at any time?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It was part of the normal contract that the chief of staff had at that point.

MR. STEELE: Yes, but you were no longer the chief of staff, now you're the CEO of Conserve Nova Scotia.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Correct.

MR. STEELE: So did you ask for that severance?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I kept the same contract with the change in job responsibility.

MR. STEELE: I know you did because I read the contract. My question was whether you asked for it.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Probably, I asked if the provisions would be the same. Did I specifically ask about the severance? No, it wasn't about severance, it was about moving to create a brand new energy-efficiency agency in Nova Scotia.

MR. STEELE: That's all very well, but you have an employment contract that has a very, very generous severance provision. Significantly more generous than anything that anyone would be offered in the private sector, I would suggest. I'm simply trying to explore whose idea it was.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Severance provisions are not unusual in the Public Service.

MR. STEELE: Ms. Foley Melvin, that's not what I said and you know that's not what I said. Nine months' severance starting from day one is unusually generous. That's

what I said. I'm exploring, and you are very carefully evading the question about whose idea that was.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The contract was transferred with simply a change in job responsibilities.

MR. STEELE: But you're using the passive voice throughout. You're saying this was done, this happened. Who did it? Did you ask for it or did you not?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It was in the contract when I got it to re-sign.

MR. STEELE: So it came as a pleasant surprise to you?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I don't think it was a surprise, no.

MR. STEELE: No, and so you received a contract. Who did you receive the contract from?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It would have been the deputy minister.

MR. STEELE: Who was who?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: To the Premier, Howard Windsor.

MR. STEELE: And so he sent a draft contract to you, is that the way it worked?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That's the way it worked.

MR. STEELE: And you read it and did you make any changes to the draft contract or was the first draft that was sent to you satisfactory?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe that the first draft was satisfactory.

MR. STEELE: And so you simply, what, signed it and returned it?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I had already begun working on the creation and implementation of Conserve Nova Scotia. I was already in my new role and doing my new responsibilities.

MR. STEELE: But that's not what I asked you. What I asked you is whether you simply signed it and returned it to the deputy minister.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I certainly read it and then, yes, I signed it and returned it.

MR. STEELE: And the terms, as far as you could tell, were the same terms that you had as chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. STEELE: What was different?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: As you had mentioned, the term of the contract was different.

MR. STEELE: What was your term as chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It was one year.

MR. STEELE: And the term for Conserve Nova Scotia was three years. Were there any other differences?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I don't believe there were any other differences. I would have to sit and compare the two, but I don't believe there were any other differences.

MR. STEELE: Now, you said the term of your contract as chief of staff was a year. Are you telling me that in the chief of staff contract there was also a provision for nine months' severance for a one-year contract?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes.

MR. STEELE: Does that not strike you as unusually generous?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, I believe that was a contract that had been used prior to my arrival and by other governments in the past.

MR. STEELE: I'm sure it was used in the past because probably the last chief of staff had the same contract, but that's not what I asked you. What I asked you is whether that doesn't strike you as unusually generous for someone to have a one-year contract with a provision for nine months or $100,000 worth of severance.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I left a very successful career to enter the Public Service.

MR. STEELE: And so you felt you were entitled to this?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It was part of the job, part of the offer of the position.

MR. STEELE: You felt you were entitled to this, as somebody who was leaving a successful career in the private sector?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I have a very important job ahead of me, Mr. Steele, and it is to create an energy-efficiency agency in Nova Scotia that helps Nova Scotians change the way that they use energy.

MR. STEELE: I know, but that's not what I asked you. I asked you whether you felt that was what you were entitled to, as somebody leaving a successful career in the private sector.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I accepted the position as it was offered to me.

MR. STEELE: And so you did no negotiation? You didn't say, well, I'll accept it as long as these conditions? Somebody just handed you a piece of paper and said here, these are the terms and you said, great?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: This is the contract that we use for this position.

MR. STEELE: This is the contract that we use for the chief of staff position?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Correct.

MR. STEELE: Now, when you left Mazda Canada as the regional manager for Atlantic Canada, did you resign outright? Do you have any right to return or did you just quit that job?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I resigned.

MR. STEELE: And did you receive any severance for that?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, I didn't.

MR. STEELE: And when you left Mazda Canada, what was your salary?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That's private business, but it was substantial.

MR. STEELE: But you've just used your private sector contract to justify not only your salary but also the severance provisions, and so I think it's reasonable for me to ask, what exactly was that salary that you left?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I'm not planning to share that information here today.

MR. STEELE: But do you understand the difficulty I have where you used your private sector salary to justify the salary that you're earning today, and yet you won't reveal what that private sector salary was?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I had a very successful career in the private sector, a career that I was involved in for a very long time, and I was well remunerated for that.

MR. STEELE: Okay, and how much was that remuneration?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was well remunerated.

MR. STEELE: But that's not what I asked you, I asked you how much it was.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I'm not going to answer that question.

MR. STEELE: But then surely you can understand that if you're using it to justify the salary that you're earning now, that we don't necessarily have to just take your word for it, since you won't tell us what the salary was that you left. For example, if it was $80,000, $90,000, $100,000, $110,000, $150,000, that would give us some idea, some yardstick, some point of comparison with the very generous contract that you have now.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The reason that I am here before you today is, first of all, to let everyone know more about Conserve Nova Scotia, and second of all, to say that I am the right person to go forward in this position.

MR. STEELE: The reason you're here today, Ms. Foley Melvin, is because you're a very highly paid public servant. You got a job without any advertisement, without any competition. It was simply handed to you. The members of this committee believe that there is a problem with that. You are here today to answer the questions that we put to you, not to answer the questions that you choose to answer. I want you to be very clear on that.

You are now a very highly paid public servant. You are the first public servant that I can remember in my time on this committee, which is now getting on for five years, you are the very first public servant ever to sit in that chair and refuse to answer a question put to you by a member of the Legislature on this side. So you have, today, refused to answer two legitimate questions. One is, what was your salary in the private sector, which you are using to justify the salary you are earning now. The other one is the nature and the contents of your conversation with the Premier in which you were dismissed as chief of staff and offered this new position as the President and CEO of

Conserve Nova Scotia. I have difficulty with that, and I am sure we will be pursuing that as members of the committee later.

I'm going to give you one more chance in the time that I have available, which is only a minute or two. I'm going to give you one more chance to answer those questions that I put to you, or you can choose to be the first public servant to sit in that chair, in five years, and refuse to answer questions. Do you choose to answer, or do you choose to remain silent?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was asked to take on the task of creating Conserve Nova Scotia, which I have implemented and we have publicly launched as a new agency in Nova Scotia.

MR. STEELE: Okay, I think that's all the answer we need.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Glavine, you have 20 minutes.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you Madam Chair. I don't have the skills of my colleague, in terms of a legal background, but there are a lot of other questions I'm sure will, hopefully, help throw some light on what is a very perplexing issue for Nova Scotians. Since I had asked questions in the House, obviously my e-mails, my phone calls, letters, et cetera, Nova Scotians are begging for some clarity on this issue. Before I get started, I just have some quick questions which just require a yes or no, or short answers.

Are you aware that our caucus staff put in a FOIPOP application regarding information surrounding your hire, as well as the creation of Conserve Nova Scotia?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes.

MR. GLAVINE: When did you find out?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It would have been by e-mail. I can't tell you the date, but I am aware. It was a few weeks ago.

MR. GLAVINE: Who informed you at that time?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: There were two FOIPOP requests. One was far sooner than the second. I guess, in both cases, I was informed by our FOIPOP officer, Kathleen Bugby.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. GLAVINE: Have you looked at the information provided in the FOIPOP?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The first I looked at; the second, very briefly, I reviewed.

MR. GLAVINE: Did you have any input on what information should be omitted or blanked out?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, that's done by the FOIPOP officer. I'm requested to provide anything I might have of interest, and . . .

MR. GLAVINE: So the FOIPOP supervisor, or the director there, made those decisions?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe that's the process. That's not a process I'm involved in.

MR. GLAVINE: I can table some of that documentation today, which I will. It certainly has Conserve Nova Scotia, it has your initials at the top of some of those pages. Did you or didn't you have a hand in blanking out some of the information?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I did not.

MR. GLAVINE: I just want to begin by asking you some questions with regard to your salary, some dates surrounding your contract and how long you've been paid. The terms of the contract, within your current contract, state the agreement begins on June 26^th. Is that correct?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, I believe it is.

MR. GLAVINE: The date you have affixed your signature on the agreement is July 12, 2006. Is that correct?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe that it is, yes.

MR. GLAVINE: So why did the start date on the contract not reflect the date you affixed your signature?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe it was purely paperwork. It certainly didn't affect the actual date I started.

MR. GLAVINE: I have a piece of correspondence dated June 26, 2006 from Sharalyn Young, Director of Human Resources, to Howard C. Windsor which states, ". . . there is no organization established yet for 'Conserve N.S.' so I would assume that we'll just keep her on our books under the Office of the Premier until such decisions are made?" Is that the reality?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was reporting to the Premier's Deputy Minister at that time.

MR. GLAVINE: Okay, and I have correspondence tabled to that effect as we - a little later. There are a few questions stemming from this statement. Given that your contract was signed on July 12, 2006 was retroactive to June 26^th, were you paid during that time period?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes.

MR. GLAVINE: So you were just on the books.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was working during that time period.

MR. GLAVINE: I think the more important question stemming from this is that within the correspondence, Ms. Young states "we'll just keep her" as if you have been continually on the books for some time now. When did you stop working for the Premier as his chief of staff officially?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It would have been the Tuesday, post-election. I'm sorry, I don't have that date.

MR. GLAVINE: Up until what point had you been performing duties as the Premier's chief of staff?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: To that very moment.

MR. GLAVINE: Okay. So you've been continually on the payroll of the province since you first began back in February?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes.

MR. GLAVINE: I want to move to another piece of correspondence, if I could, which I will table for the House as well. This piece is from Sasha Irving, who we all know is the press secretary for the Premier. It is to Howard Windsor again. This piece is dated June 27^th. There's a piece blanked out within the document and it has N.A., which means not relevant or not applicable. At the very top of this piece of

correspondence, it has H.F.M. I think it is a reasonable assumption that these are your initials. Have you seen this piece of correspondence before?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe it was in the initial FOIPOP request and I did go through that. I have to sign a FOIPOP request before it leaves.

MR. GLAVINE: So you were the one then who deemed the blanked out section to be non-relevant or non-applicable?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That was brought back to me in that form. The documents are brought back in that form for my review.

MR. GLAVINE: Now, I want to move to another piece of correspondence. Again, it is addressed to Howard Windsor and this e-mail is from Alison Scott, the Deputy Minister of Energy. Alison states, "I had lunch with Heather today. She showed me the mandate you have given her. Could I have a copy? It would help us here help her if we have a clear(er?) understanding of what is expected."

I want to be clear on what this is saying and what this means. She is asking Howard to send her the mandate which Howard gave to you. This certainly suggests the mandate did not come from the Department of Energy, but it came from within the Premier's Office. Alison goes on further to say it would help her better help you if she had the mandate.

I have to tell you, this is horribly alarming that, first of all, the mandate did not come from within the Department of Energy. Furthermore, there was no obvious consultation process within the Department of Energy on the drafting of the mandate. So there are several energy efficient experts within the Department of Energy, and I would argue there are very few that come from within the Premier's Office.

Having said that, Heather, can you tell us here today where the mandate came from?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The initial mandate did come from the Premier's Office and the Premier's Deputy Minister. The goal was to look at the different ways the governance could be set up to look at the different areas that Conserve Nova Scotia might cover prior to it being assigned to a minister other than the Premier. It was part of the election campaign.

MR. GLAVINE: So then whose decision was it for the mandate of this agency to come from the Premier's Office rather than from the Department of Energy?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The "create Conserve Nova Scotia" was part of the Spring election campaign.

MR. GLAVINE: No, I asked whose decision was it?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe that was the decision of the Office of the Premier.

MR. GLAVINE: And did you have any input on the creation of the mandate as well?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Initially it was discussed, just what I would do in a go-forward capacity until we actually were prepared to launch Conserve Nova Scotia, of course.

MR. GLAVINE: At that point how much input did you feel you could even give if the question were asked of you?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: To set up an organization didn't mean, on the first day I needed to know everything that organization was going to do. There's a lot that needs to be done in order to physically and structurally set up an organization regardless of what its mandate might be.

MR. GLAVINE: So then it basically was set up through an Order in Council, would that be correct?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, I believe that it was. I know that my contract had to go to an Order in Council. There was no R&R for the agency at that point, no.

MR. GLAVINE: So I guess it's probably somewhat of a side note but, you know, I think most legislators in the House would consider this an abuse of power. That a proper legislative process was not in place to create this agency, and it just simply came from an Order in Council. Having said that, I have two pieces of information I would like to address with this issue. One is Schedule "A" of your terms of agreement. That would be the one before the October 12, 2006 amendments, which state that initially the CAO will propose legislation to give effect to that role and the goals of the corporation. I believe Schedule "A" stems from the original July 12^th contract, is that correct?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I would agree.

MR. GLAVINE: So now on October 12, 2006, Schedule "A" has been amended in several place, but specifically with regard to the earlier mentioned line of proposing legislation. A new amendment made the line read, ". . . propose governance models to

give effect to the role and goals of Conserve Nova Scotia . . ." So before I ask you this, I just want to turn your attention to another key piece of correspondence dated June 23, 2006, from Alison Scott, Deputy Minister of Energy, to the entire staff of the department. The e-mail states, "Department of Energy staff will work with Ms. Foley Melvin to shape the legislation that creates Conserve Nova Scotia."

So clearly as of June 23, 2006, even when the contract was signed by yourself on July 12, 2006, with the attached Schedule "A", the thinking was there would be legislation which would be tabled respecting the role and the creation of Conserve Nova Scotia. So, Heather, I'm left to wonder, what exactly changed from June 23^rd and July 12^th, to October when the agency was created?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Could you be more specific in your question?

MR. GLAVINE: Well, obviously, now it doesn't look like there will be any proposed legislation. So I'm asking what has changed from the time of June 23^rd and July 12, to October when the agency was created?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: When we were looking at the various governments' models to put forward to Cabinet, we looked at various forms of Crown Corporations. We looked at special operating agencies, which is where we ended. Initially it was thought Conserve Nova Scotia would be a program administrator and deliver programs. It has since come to pass that Conserve Nova Scotia will also be creating policies for Nova Scotians, which means that it needs to work much closer with the government.

MR. GLAVINE: So who decided then that the agency should be created through Governor in Council, as opposed to legislation?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: There were several suggestions put forward and that was the one that was chosen for that reason.

MR. GLAVINE: So when did you find out that there would be no legislation? Because you were led to believe there would be legislation to give structure and a mandate and direction to this department. So when were you informed that there would be no legislation drafted, and that it would be done through the Treasury and Policy Board?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We were working on various governance models and various governance models were submitted. The fact that we put forth in the mandate that Conserve Nova Scotia would also be responsible for developing policies for the Government of Nova Scotia and Nova Scotians, was the reason it would be a special operating agency.

MR. GLAVINE: But when did you find out there would be no legislation drafted?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I don't think that was a large factor. It was a very simple decision to make if policy was going to be created by Conserve Nova Scotia, that it would need to be much closer to the government.

MR. GLAVINE: And who informed you, and were in on the discussions, that this was now the model that would go forward, rather than the previously believed to have been led expectation, both towards you and towards Nova Scotians, that there was going to be legislation that would give and enshrine for the province the direction that this important organization - body - would have?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The decision was more made toward the mandate than it was to having legislation or not, back to the fact that if Conserve Nova Scotia was going to be responsible for developing policies, as well as programs and program delivery, it was very important that it remain closer to the government for that reason. Policy needs to be created not from an arm's length, but closer to the government.

MR. GLAVINE: I have with me here today as well a document called Delivering the Commitment, Champion of Conservation Energy Efficiency in Nova Scotia, dated September 13, 2006. Having pointed that out, under Our Challenges portion of the document, it states that the first challenge you face is building public credibility. Did you put together this document?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I did.

MR. GLAVINE: And were you consulted or did you work with some others at the time?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: This was a very important document to go forward. This would become, if accepted, the new energy efficiency agency in Nova Scotia.

MR. GLAVINE: So considering your background, you had procured some consultant work along the way. Who are some of the people on the team who are going to give shape to this important agency for the next 20 or 25 years?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: When this document was prepared and sent to Executive Council, I prepared the document and presented the document.

MR. GLAVINE: And where did other people, in terms of consultants, come in? You've talked about shaping a vision for this agency, where did other people come in to

help you develop this? When I read through your curriculum vitae, I don't see anything there that would support a background necessary to give shape to this organization.

So now you're talking about you did this. So what role did the consultants that Nova Scotians paid for help in the process?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: So if you're referring to the consultants, are you asking about the consultants?

MR. GLAVINE: I'd like to have a little clearer picture of the role that you played in shaping this, and the role that the consultants played.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was, as most are aware, working on my own on this project. Although I was housed at the Department of Energy, there were no staff assigned to me, as the Department of Energy is a very busy place and everyone has their tasks to do. Very normally, I called upon some consultants' help to help in the go-forward to preparing this.

[9:45 a.m.]

This is a very important agency, this isn't just - to create an agency that is as important as energy efficiency and conservation takes a lot of work and one individual - it's very difficult for one individual to do that on their own.

MR. GLAVINE: So now you're saying the consultants perhaps had a greater hand in developing some of the vision pieces and the programs that would go forward than what you would put into it and being paid a tidy salary of $131,000. It's now the work of consultants to give you the pieces that will shape this office for the next 10, 15, 20 years?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It's very common to call on outside experts. It's done on a daily basis in government. It's also done on a daily basis in the private sector, to use consultants or to go outside for expert advice. I'm in a situation where you don't have anyone on staff to help you - it is a very common occurrence.

MR. GLAVINE: So getting back then, did you personally believe that building public credibility was at the top of the list of your challenges?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe that was an important challenge, yes.

MR. GLAVINE: What are some of the steps in addressing this issue?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I hope we're taking one of those steps today.

MR. GLAVINE: What further steps will you be taking?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Well, Conserve Nova Scotia will be offering both policies, program delivery and administration to many important energy efficiency conservation objectives in Nova Scotia.

MR. GLAVINE: One of things that did intrigue me in looking at the curriculum vitae - and I would say, had you prepared that? Did you prepare the curriculum vitae?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I did, yes.

MR. GLAVINE: Okay, which is interesting in itself, looking at some of the formatting and the errors that are in there. Apart from that, 1983 to 1995 shows absolutely nothing happening in terms of your education, and I just got through reading 45 to 50 curriculum vitae, and there's that ongoing educational component. This is at the heart of your job now. What were you doing in those years?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: As I stated earlier, I've had a very successful career in the private sector. I'm very proud of my accomplishments, and I'm excited about going forward and being very successful at Conserve Nova Scotia.

MR. GLAVINE: Okay. What time is . . .

MADAM CHAIR: You have one more minute.

MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Thank you for coming in today. You had said that you had started your job the Tuesday following the election, so would that be June 20^th? Is that correct? June 13^th was the election, so I assume the 20^th.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe it was. Yes, it was the Tuesday following the election.

MR. MCNEIL: You also stated that the mandate for your new position was created in the Premier's Office?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe it perhaps was created by the deputy minister, to the Premier.

MR. MCNEIL: You at the time were his chief of staff, and you had said in a previous question that you had no input in the creation of the mandate - or the vision, I should say - for this new position.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The vision for Conserve Nova Scotia was laid out in the election program, last Spring. The initial - what Conserve Nova Scotia was going to be.

MADAM CHAIR: I'm sorry, Mr. McNeil, your time has expired. A minute goes fast. Mr. Porter, you now have 20 minutes.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Ms. Foley Melvin, for coming in today. I have a few questions for you. I'll start with, how will the work of Conserve Nova Scotia differ from the conservation efforts of the Department of Energy?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Thank you for your question. Conserve Nova Scotia is going to provide a focal point that will only focus on energy efficiency and energy conservation in Nova Scotia. The Department of Energy did a great job in energy efficiency and launching the smart energy choices. Energy efficiency has become so much more and required a single point of focus.

MR. PORTER: I understand, in addition to yourself, Conserve Nova Scotia will employ 11 full-time staff, at some point in the future. Is that correct?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, that is correct.

MR. PORTER: Could you outline for us please, the role, responsibilities and maybe the expertise of those future staff members to come and explain, what is the expected relationship between yourself and those staff, and what you hope to gain there, obviously?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Okay. Currently, we have eight people in our office, six of whom are full-time, permanent employees; one is temporary and one is on a casual basis. Both of those positions we will look for permanent people, through regular government procedures.

The additional four staff members. One will be a social behaviour marketing person, who will help us address the fact that behaviour change is so important in energy efficiency. The second will be a specialist in creating benchmarks, and measuring and evaluating, with a place to start where we're going and how we're going to get there and if we're headed on the right track. The additional individuals will be program delivery agents. They will help us develop programs and work with the partnerships that we attain to deliver those programs.

MR. PORTER: Okay, thank you. What is the breakdown of your budget between program and costs, and salaries and benefits?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Our budget for the remainder of this year was taken from the Department of Energy, mainly the Smart Energy Choices Program. It's $10.56 million; $9 million of that will go directly to programs and the balance will go to administrative costs, operating costs, salaries and benefits.

MR. PORTER: You said earlier on - I think in your opening comments perhaps - that you've met with a number of groups across the province. I'm wondering if you could outline some of those groups and organizations that you visited and what did you hope to accomplish in these meetings? Were you able to learn some stuff - was that the goal? Maybe you can talk about that a little bit for me.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Absolutely. Although the setting up of the organization is very structured, and you can go about it in a way, the learning of what the organization is going to do needs to be done with the involvement of stakeholders. There are already many stakeholders involved in energy efficiency and conservation in Nova Scotia, and I've met with several. For example, the Eco-Efficiency Centre in Dartmouth, which is funded by Dalhousie University and Nova Scotia Power, enter small- and medium-size businesses and do audits of their energy efficiency and waste management programs, and where they can help that company. Or they will develop a plan to actually help that company in a go-forward to save money, use less energy and conserve. The Eco-Efficiency Centre does a phenomenal job, so that's in the small- to medium-size business sector.

I've met with the Ecology Action Centre and groups like Clean Nova Scotia, whose mandates are far greater than just energy efficiency but already have individuals who are working diligently toward that end. They all created presentations for me and spent some time with me to let me know what they were doing.

It was important, while I was meeting with these organizations, to find out exactly what they were doing as not to create duplication of an effort, or perhaps to find where a focus could be made in the program delivery end.

MR. PORTER: Okay, and I do also understand that you have met with others, outside of the province?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, I went to visit Elizabeth Weir in New Brunswick who is the head of Efficiency New Brunswick. She also was given the task of creating an energy efficiency agency in New Brunswick, which she has successfully done. We spent about a day and a half together, an evening and a day together, discussing where she started, what her first steps were. I was seeking advice from Elizabeth, and she was very forthcoming with me and has done a great job in New Brunswick.

MR. PORTER: Can you talk a little bit about maybe what some of that advice was that she gave you, or what you learned there, maybe?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes. Her initial advice was to meet with many of the various stakeholders, both government and private sector, find out what they are doing, consult with them to see where they think an agency might go in Nova Scotia, as she had done in New Brunswick.

MR. PORTER: And you talked a few minutes ago about some of the stakeholders you met and so on in this province, as well. Was there something specific of all the stakeholders that stood out? Were there certain programs and initiatives that they're looking for from Conserve Nova Scotia?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I think one of the biggest elements that we seem to be missing, which is very important in starting out, is creating the benchmarks and evaluating and measuring where we're going, because if you don't know where you started, it's very difficult to figure out where you've come.

MR. PORTER: In your conversations with Ms. Weir then, were you able to set any type of benchmarks?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, Nova Scotia is different than New Brunswick in the way that we have a power utility that's private. New Brunswick has various different models and in a way we're luckier, we'll deal with one electric utility that we will partner with, to go forward on programs.

MR. PORTER: I just want to go back to your role a little bit maybe in the organization. As CAO, will you provide overriding direction or will you take up a particular role on a certain project?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I intend to be very involved in the day-to-day business of Conserve Nova Scotia. I feel that my goal will be more creating public awareness, dealing with the stakeholders. We have excellent staff at Conserve Nova Scotia, and we'll grow that staff, but we have excellent staff to manage the day-to-day business in the office and the program delivery. My goal will be to create public awareness.

MR. PORTER: What will your initial objectives be for Clean Nova Scotia?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: For Clean Nova Scotia?

MR. PORTER: Yes.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The agency that is currently a program delivery agency?

MR. PORTER: Yes.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We are currently working with Clean Nova Scotia on various projects. They are one of the three agencies that perform our energy efficiency audits, our "A" audits. That is part of the EnerGuide for Houses program. We will continue to work with Clean Nova Scotia and agencies just like them to deliver programs to Nova Scotians.

MR. PORTER: You also talked early on - I think in your opening statement maybe - about certain percentages of people. You talked about 10 per cent of the people, and correct me if I've got it wrong, 10 per cent of the people haven't done anything about energy efficiency. Is that correct?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That's correct. There was a survey done by the Department of Energy last year by a research company that provided that data. There are a lot of people who don't know exactly what they can do or that they actually can make a difference, and it doesn't affect their everyday life in a great way. We intend to reach out to those people.

MR. PORTER: The Utility and Review Board directed Nova Scotia Power, for example, to consult more broadly with experts and develop their own conservation and energy efficiency plan. Have you been involved in these technical conferences?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I have been. Actually, I was invited to attend both of the stakeholder demand side management meetings that Nova Scotia Power held late summer and this Fall. I was very involved as a stakeholder to find out the direction that they intended to go with their demand side management program.

MR. PORTER: Who else was present and what other organizations were involved in that?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Residential customers were represented. Small, medium and large industrial business were represented. Canadian manufacturers and exporters were represented. A lot of the same stakeholders that I would be working with on a regular basis were present for those meetings.

MR. PORTER: Recently the New England Governors and the Eastern Canadian Premiers had an energy conference in Charlottetown. Were you in attendance at that and, if so, what were some of the more informative details that were shared with the participants in that conference?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was in attendance.

MR. PORTER: Can you expand on that a bit?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was in attendance. In fact, Allan Crandlemire and I attended that conference last Wednesday and Thursday in Charlottetown. It is a conference that is a lead-up to a ministers' meeting that will be held before Christmas and a Premiers' meeting that will be held after Christmas, in the Spring, to discuss, and this will be one of the issues on the agenda.

One of the more interesting things that came out of that was to listen to other states and provinces talk about where they started, how they started, and where they've grown to. For example, the Province of Quebec started five years ago with a mandate to reduce their consumption by 0.7 terawatt, which is 1,000 gigawatt hours.

[10:00 a.m.]

It's a huge number. It's three times more than all the power we consume in Nova Scotia in a year. To reduce that, they started out with a $12 million budget for energy efficiency and conservation programs. Today, their goal is to reduce their use by eight full terawatt hours and I apologize, the eight terawatt hours is more than three times what we consume in Nova Scotia in a year, and their budget is $250 million dedicated to energy efficiency and conservation.

So these are not small budget numbers. We can make a huge difference in our greenhouse gas emissions, in our education to Nova Scotians. One of the other big points that was brought up last week was through the education system. There are a lot of provinces and states that are working with their public education systems, starting with school-age children to instill energy efficiency and how important it is.

MR. PORTER: It's interesting you touch on the education piece. It was one of the questions I have. How do you plan on getting the education piece? You talked a little bit about the kids, but can you expand on how we're going to educate Nova Scotians on energy efficiency?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Well, I'll start by using an example. I have a seven-year-old son, he absolutely - there's no question in his mind about what he does with his garbage. There is green garbage and there is real garbage and there is recyclables. He learned that through osmosis - through growing up, going to school, and being at daycare. What our goal will be is to create that same mindset in young people of today. So as they grow up and get older, it won't be a behaviour change we need to teach, it will be something that's instilled.

MR. PORTER: How difficult will that be for your department to do?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It won't be easy, but we've been working with some folks at the Department of Education who are also very, very interested in accomplishing this task. This is the beginning, this is energy efficiency which will later lead them to learning more about climate change and the sustainability of our environment. This is a great starting place that will work through education programs. The curriculum is set already. The outcomes of the curriculum are set already. What we plan to do is create projects and programs that the teachers can use to work with the outcomes that are already projected. We're on our way to doing that. We've assembled a great group to move forward on that.

MR. PORTER: Just so I'm clear, you foresee this in the future something as important as energy efficiency, obviously here in this province and this country, being taught in the schools? Are you talking about a regular piece working with the Department of Education to implement this sort of program in the school? Or are you - just specific program projects? I just want clarification, really.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The outcomes are already established. The curriculum and the outcomes are already established as to what the students need to learn and what the teachers need to teach them in a given year, in a given subject. We will work with the outcomes that are already determined to make energy efficiency part of how they achieve those outcomes in the classroom, and the best way to do that is to provide tools that are easy for the teachers to use.

MR. PORTER: Okay, thank you for that. We've seen behavioural changes through different programs, for example the Department of Health Promotion and Protection. Have you consulted with them for how some of your future programs may work or put out there to the public?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We've spoken with Human Resources in the provincial government to retain a copy of the job description for the individual they hired for their social behaviour change and marketing manager. We'll be working with Health Promotion and Protection to talk more about the individual they found, and to help us prepare our description of the individual that we're looking for.

MR. PORTER: Are there other government agencies that you will also - Health Promotion and Protection seems like an obvious one, maybe, but are there others within government? I'm just curious as to where you will go with it.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: There are many initiatives within government or arm's-length government organizations or in the private sector. For example, the waste recovery board does a phenomenal job on behaviour change. When the green bins were first brought out, there were a lot of people who really weren't sure what to do or how they could be part of it. I suspect it was change, and change is always difficult.

Certainly, that same methodology of behaviour change will be used in Conserve Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia is now leading in North America in their waste management. Other countries call upon us on a regular basis to come and help them deal with their waste management. We have a lot of experts on behaviour change in the province and we'll be seeking out the best one to help us accomplish our task.

MR. PORTER: Can you share with us, with this committee, about your past employment? Specifically, what leadership skills, organizational skills, maybe problem-solving skills that will assist you in your new position of CEO for Conserve Nova Scotia, how that will benefit us?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Most of my background, as most are aware, as my resumé had been circulated, is in the automotive business. Although I worked in the automotive business for a very long time, I'm not a mechanic, and I don't necessarily fix the car, but I'm very good at stakeholder relations. I had many clients who - in the initial stages with Mazda Credit I was on the finance side. So we needed to work with them to turn their business around. We created loan programs for them. We dealt in lending large sums of money so that they could retrofit perhaps their dealership, which is really the same thing that we'll be doing with small, medium and large businesses, we'll be introducing ways that they can do better in their business, and that's through energy efficiency.

Bringing stakeholders together and getting them on the same message is something I've also done. To have everybody focused toward the same goal - many of us, stakeholders included, have the same goal. We don't always necessarily take the same path to get there, so it will be part of my job to get us all focused in going down the same road.

MR. PORTER: It sounds like you're telling me you had a fair amount of time - can you talk more about the actual leadership? Which part of a leadership role did you play in some of the examples you gave there? What specifically was your job?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: My job specifically was to bring together, in this particular case, the dealers from Atlantic Canada. Get them to introduce behaviour change and policies in their dealerships that would bring more customers in to look at what they had to sell, offer incentives and rebates through advertising that would entice the customer to come in, as well.

So even though energy efficiency and the automotive business is very different in a lot of ways, the ability to draw to a topic and have them accomplish their tasks, have customers come in, have customers buy what they have to sell, is very similar to what we need to accomplish at Conserve Nova Scotia. We need to have Nova Scotians buy-in

that this is something they can do, and move together toward a more energy efficient Nova Scotia.

MR. PORTER: Buy-in, that's always an interesting word, and it's a tough job to get folks to buy-in because, as you stated, change is often difficult for people. What will be some of the very initial ways that we're looking at getting Nova Scotians to buy into this particular program, Conserve Nova Scotia, as well as just the whole background and the mandate behind it?

MR. FOLEY MELVIN: Well, there are many programs already being delivered by Conserve Nova Scotia. The one that we launched on October 20^th was the oil appliance rebate program. Over 60 per cent of Nova Scotians heat their homes with oil. This has the ability to affect a lot of Nova Scotians in the way they heat their homes. By purchasing energy-efficient appliances, of which we'll offer a rebate or an incentive to do just that, they will use less oil, therefore create less emissions, but it's a win/win - by using less oil, they keep more money in their pocket, and by using a more energy-efficient product they create less greenhouse gas emissions. So it helps to add to that proud Nova Scotian approach that we all like to have. I get to do good for me, but I also get to stand up and say that I've helped Nova Scotians.

MADAM CHAIR: The time has expired for the PC caucus. We will return on a round of 14 minutes per caucus.

Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: Thank you very much. One of the difficulties we face when addressing this topic of appointments and patronage is that often what we in the Opposition say just gets dismissed as partisan. It was interesting to me, a few weeks ago when this subject was in the newspaper I received an e-mail from somebody who I didn't know, and I thought this e-mail, from a regular citizen, expressed perfectly the problem with what has gone on here. So what I would like to do is read this e-mail. I've given copies to the clerk to distribute to members of the committee, because I think this expresses more eloquently than I can why we're here. It says:

Hello Mr. Steele,

As a Nova Scotian who has been trying to find a job in this province for the past five years, I appreciate your effort to force Heather Foley Melvin to produce her resume at a legislative meeting.

The appointment of this woman embodies all that is ... unfair in the hiring practices of government. I hold two university degrees and an advanced diploma in public relations. I visit the careerbeacon.com job

postings for the Nova Scotia civil service on a daily basis. Each and every job description demands that the applicant must prove that s/he has the relevant skills and experience to compete for the position. This is true even for entry- level positions.

This offensive display of patronage demonstrates that women in politics is not necessarily a benefit to others like myself who are struggling daily to find entry-level employment. If I had the chance to address this committee I would tell Ms. Foley Melvin she should be ashamed of herself.

It is signed by Mary MacDonald of Halifax.

Now, Ms. Foley Melvin, Mary MacDonald is in the gallery today - she is in the central gallery looking down on you - what advice would you give to Mary MacDonald and people like Mary MacDonald who are trying to find employment in the Nova Scotia Civil Service?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I am here to talk to you about Conserve Nova Scotia, not to give advice on how an individual might . . .

MR. STEELE: Do you understand why Mary MacDonald and people like Mary MacDonald are upset with you?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I have been asked to do a job; I have been asked to create and implement Conserve Nova Scotia. We launched Conserve Nova Scotia on October 20^th. It is a very important agency to Nova Scotia and I know that. I intend to work diligently to make it a success. We have a great team of staff to push this behaviour change forward in Nova Scotia. We have great programs to deliver to Nova Scotians and I believe - I ask you to judge me on my success.

MR. STEELE: Okay, that's not what I asked you. What I asked you is do you understand why Mary MacDonald and people like Mary MacDonald are upset with the way that you got your job?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was asked to do this job; I have had a very successful career to date, I intend to continue to do that.

MR. STEELE: Thank you. I am going to share the time now with my colleague.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank you for appearing before Public Accounts. I know it must be difficult to answer some of these questions, but I want to make it very clear to you that what we have an issue with, and what Nova Scotians have an issue with, is not you, personally. It is not Heather Foley Melvin, it is the process by which you received or were given your job. That is what we have an issue with, that is what Nova Scotians have an issue with, and I hope you understand that. It is not a personal attack on you, it is really an attack on a patronage appointment.

We all understand - everybody in this committee, I think Nova Scotians understand that a chief of staff appointment for a political Party is a political appointment, which you held. Everybody understands that, but to be a head of Conserve Nova Scotia, to be a head of this department or office - whatever you call it - in the eyes of Nova Scotians, in the eyes I think of many members here in this committee, is a civil servant position and it should be given to the most qualified person, in an open process, so that people can compete for it and be given the chance to apply for that job and hopefully receive that job. So I hope you understand that.

I would like to ask you - how many elections have you worked on in the past?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Many.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Many elections - were they all for one political Party?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, they were.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville- Cobequid): For the Conservative Party of Nova Scotia?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I know that your reputation as a Tory power-broker precedes you. As a member of an Opposition Party for the last three and a half years, I know that - or have heard that you are the one to know to hopefully make things happen within the Conservative Party of Nova Scotia. Would you agree with that statement?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I think political involvement by Nova Scotians, regardless of what Party they represent, is really important to the political system in Nova Scotia. I have been hired to do a job.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I know that, but that's not what I asked you. I think it is a very simple question - do you feel that you do have a lot of pull within the Conservative Party and that you were looked upon as someone who can make things happen within the Conservative Party.

[10:15 a.m.]

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Do I think that my skills and abilities were highlighted and noticed? Absolutely, I do. I work hard at everything I do. I'm proud of my record. Do I think it's any different than anyone who is committed or passionate to a cause? I do not.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): No. I don't question your involvement in a certain political Party, or your background or your history in the private sector. But we all know that you worked on Rodney MacDonald's leadership campaign in the Spring of this year, and we all know - I believe most people here know, maybe the members from the Conservative Party might not agree - when Rodney MacDonald announced his decision to run as leader, that he was the underdog. He was running against a well-known former MLA, a former Finance Minister of this province, and also against a CEO of a large corporation here in the province. So, from what we have seen, he was the underdog, and I think that the work you've done within that Party showed that you do have that power. You do have a lot of pull within that Party. So what I'd like to ask you is, is Rodney MacDonald, the Leader of the Conservative Party of Nova Scotia, Premier today because of your efforts?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Oh, I was a part of a large group of people working on that. Certainly, that was no one individual. As it wouldn't ever be.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): No, but I would think that you felt quite proud of the work that you did. I'm sure you worked very hard to get him elected as leader, in the convention or in the leadership campaign. So, you must have been very appreciative and supportive and glad to see that he actually won that leadership race, back in the Spring?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We all worked hard, as anyone would have worked hard, on such an endeavour.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So, I guess one of my few remaining questions is, what does Rodney MacDonald owe Heather Foley Melvin?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I don't believe that he owes me anything. I will successfully take Conserve Nova Scotia to equal some of the other agencies in Canada

that are already operating, to reduce our energy use in the province. That is my mandate and that is what I intend to do.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): And I don't question the mandate of Conserve Nova Scotia. As I said in my opening statement, it's not a personal attack against you. It's not an issue with you. It's an issue around how you were given that position, how you were given your job. You stated in some of your opening remarks that you were very excited about the opportunity to take this position, and I would say, at a salary of $131,000 a year, most Nova Scotians would have been very excited to be given that opportunity, to have a position that paid so well. I guess, from this whole process, one of the things that we can say - and I think Nova Scotians are saying - is that king makers don't come cheap in this province. Does Rodney MacDonald owe you anything, and do you feel that Mr. MacDonald doesn't owe you anything for the hard work that you've done for him, to get him the leadership of the Conservative Party of Nova Scotia, and ultimately get him to be Premier of this Province.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I was part of a very large team. Certainly, not the head of the team. Part of a very large team. I am excited about the challenge ahead of me. I put together a fantastic team to go forward in creating an energy-efficiency agency, and that's what I intend to do.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Madam Chair, I'd like to pass my remaining time over.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Steele, you still have until 10:23 a.m.

MR. STEELE: Thank you. Ms. Foley Melvin, what politicians or political staff did you meet with or speak to, to prepare for this morning's session?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I met with government staff to prepare for this morning's session.

MR. STEELE: Okay, did you meet with any politicians or speak with any politicians, or political staff, to prepare?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I did not, no.

MR. STEELE: None at all?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. STEELE: Okay. After the election, did you seek advice about anything to do with your employment with the government?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Did I seek advice?

MR. STEELE: Did you seek advice? Did you ask anybody? Did you talk to a lawyer, anything like that, about your employment status after the election?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No. I would have talked to family and friends, but certainly no one of a professional nature.

MR. STEELE: One of the things that has come up over the last couple of days, inside and outside the Legislature, is a series of consulting contracts that was given by Conserve Nova Scotia. I think the difficulty we have with that is that the job description given to the consultants essentially matches your job description. So it appears to us as that you are handed this job in June, and then you went and hired consultants to actually do your job. That's how it appears.

Let me ask you first of all, before the contract was given to Peg McInnes, did you know Peg McInnes?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, I did not.

MR. STEELE: You had no previous contact with her of any kind?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Absolutely not.

MR. STEELE: Now, I know Peg MacInnis and I know her background and she has a lot of qualities, but I hazard to say that she doesn't know anything more about energy efficiency than, well, than you did when you were hired. That's not her background, that's not her training, it's not her qualifications. Why was Peg MacInnis hired to create a vision for Conserve Nova Scotia?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Peg MacInnis was hired off the province's standard offer list to help research - and do research. I mean, my goal was to work with stakeholders, talk to people that I would eventually be working with to put these ideas forward. My goal was to meet with them. Peg's goal was to do the research and find out what's already going on, avoiding duplication, looking at best practices in other provinces. That's the service she provided to me.

MR. STEELE: As I said, I do know Peg MacInnis, I do know her background, I do know her many qualifications, but conservation and energy efficiency aren't among them. Anyway, one of the other consultants you hired is Becky Colwell. Did you know her before you hired her?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, I didn't.

MR. STEELE: And the third one is Rob Batherson. Did you know him?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, I did.

MR. STEELE: And, how do you know him?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I know Rob Batherson, I've known Rob for many years, probably 10 years through politics.

MR. STEELE: Yes. What's the connection, exactly?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We've worked together at various times.

MR. STEELE: He holds an executive position through the Conservative Party - former Director of Communications for the Premier, you know Rob pretty well.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We all have our circle of friends. Certainly.

MR. STEELE: Do you understand the difficulty we have when one prominent person in the Conservative Party hires another person in the Conservative Party?

MADAM CHAIR: Excuse me, the time has expired now for the NDP caucus.

Mr. Colwell, you have 14 minutes until 10:37 a.m.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: Yes. I'll be sharing my time with my colleagues.

Just a few questions I want to ask you. I've been listening to this very intently. It's my understanding what you've said here - I don't want to misinterpret what you've said - you met with the Premier, and at that meeting the Premier offered you this job as the CAO, or whatever the discussion was at that time, to basically run Conserve Nova Scotia. Is that correct?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That is correct.

MR. COLWELL: At no time did anyone else talk to you about that prior to that.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. COLWELL: Okay. I'm going to cut right to the chase here. The Premier offered you a job, you were working in his office as chief of staff - it's a blatant political appointment. I mean, you just admitted that the Premier asked you personally. Normally,

the Premier doesn't do hiring in this province. That just smells of the worst kind of political patronage I've ever heard. The people in Nova Scotia feel the same way.

I truly believe - this is not a personal attack on you, it is not. I believe that you're a very capable person, you've proven that in the past. I probably believe that you will do an excellent job at Conserve Nova Scotia - that's not the issue. The issue is how you were hired.

I'm sure there's many, many people in this province who have excellent credentials who could have filled the job that you did. The problem is, they were never given that opportunity. Was there ever any discussion with you, the Premier, the deputy minister or anyone else who might be interested in this position, of even advertising the position or putting a competition out for the position?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No.

MR. COLWELL: That's what I thought. We've stepped back so far in Nova Scotia recently under the present government, it reeks of years and years ago when people were appointed. We're aware of other people that were appointed this same way, which we will bring forward as time moves on. It shows us that the present government isn't really concerned about making things work the way they should for Nova Scotians and making sure their taxpayers' money is well spent. They're more interested in ensuring their friends are looked after and you already admitted that the Premier offered you the job. The Premier never offers anyone a job, unless it's something that's going to be within the Party or something else outside of what his job is as Premier.

I'm going to ask you another question. You stated the other day in an interview here in the Legislature when they announced the new oil furnace program, which I think will help very few people and maintains our reliance on oil rather than going to some renewable energy issues, that you were energy efficient at home. Could you explain that to me again?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Certainly. I think this is a very good message to send to other Nova Scotians, who perhaps don't know what role they can play. Energy efficiency at home, although might seem small, is truly a big behaviour change to go forward with. Turn out your lights. It sounds really simple. Change your light bulbs to compact fluorescent light bulbs. If every single Canadian changed one light bulb in their house, it would be the equivalent of taking 66,000 cars off the road in Canada. That's one light bulb in every house. It's something that we all think, oh, yeah, that's easy to do; oh, well, somebody else might do that. That is where this begins. It is just that simple.

MR. COLWELL: If I could ask, if I could just interrupt you, you also stated in that interview that you had in-floor heating in your home that's energy efficient. Could you tell me how that's energy efficient?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Well, my furnace, for example, burns at 85 per cent efficiency. I am an oil user. We keep our temperature set in the house at a constant pretty much the whole year. By not raising your temperature up or putting it down, or fluctuating the temperature, your energy costs remain a lot lower.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I agree with that. The only problem I have with that is it really doesn't address the energy conservation. I mean we burn oil, we're reliant on oil. We shouldn't be relying on oil. If you would have said in that interview at any time that I have an assisted solar system, I have a wind generating system - that I'm not sure that the Department of Energy is really interested in wind because the minister believes that the wind doesn't blow in Nova Scotia, in an interview he had. That, to me, is real energy conservation. That even brings into the question, do you fully understand what this job is about? I know you will eventually and you'll probably do an excellent job at this, but when you talk about energy conservation, energy conservation, to me, is wind energy, solar energy, or any type of renewable energy we can possibly use that doesn't maintain the huge reliance we have on fossil fuel. It's that simple.

You talk about the Nova Scotia Power Corporation, you were talking about them earlier, they're the worst polluters in North America and it's terrible. I mean when we look at the system, the greenhouse gases they are generating, and the province has made no moves forward to correct that. I mean they really haven't and it's not good.

Getting back to what you said, you stated that you're going to reach out to the businesses in the area for energy conservation when Mr. Porter asked you about that. I think that's a good idea. What consultants are you going to hire to make sure that that's done?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: There are great agencies, as I mentioned earlier, especially in the small- to medium-size business. The Eco-Efficiency Agency is one that delivers already an extensive program to those businesses. It would be those types of partnerships that I would build to deliver more programs to more Nova Scotian businesses.

MR. COLWELL: And what expertise, personally, did you have to decide which one of these companies at the present time would be good to do this work?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I've done a fair bit of research on talking to them, finding out what they do, talking to the customers that they've worked with, looking at what they've been able to accomplish.

MR. COLWELL: I'll share the rest of the time with my colleagues.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. McNeil, you have until 10:37 a.m.

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. MCNEIL: Thank you, Madam Chair. In the gallery today, along with Mary MacDonald, are some communications people. Some, I believe, from the Department of Energy and some from Communications Nova Scotia. Are they here at your request or are they here on their own or has someone else directed them to be here?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Who are you referring to?

MR. MCNEIL: The communications people who are in the gallery with Mary MacDonald, are they here from your department?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I see one individual - I believe that she is from the Department of Energy. There was a gentleman that I have on staff who was here earlier, but he's not there right now.

MR. MCNEIL: They're here at your request, are they?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I believe my communications adviser planned to attend today.

MR. MCNEIL: So that would be - yes, that's fine. It's not a complicated question, I'm just asking you yes, no. There was nothing hidden behind it, I'm just curious.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Okay.

MR. MCNEIL: It has been interesting, you said earlier today that you were one of the individuals in a team of people to elect Rodney MacDonald as the Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party, and subsequently became Premier. You are from the Bedford riding?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Yes, I am.

MR. MCNEIL: It's a well-known fact - I mean it's not something that has been hidden - that during that process many Conservatives felt that Neil LeBlanc was the front-runner, leading the way, until the manipulation of the delegate system which took place in Bedford, where Neil was shut out and it came out that was the defining moment,

quite frankly, in that leadership campaign where the Premier became the Premier. He owed you, didn't he?

He then provided you with a political appointment, which is chief of staff which, quite frankly, I don't think any Nova Scotians have a problem with. But you were short-lived in that position, you were there from February to June. The issue for Nova Scotians is the position that he has given you now. To Mary MacDonald in the gallery here today, July 12^th was payday, is that accurate?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, I don't believe that's accurate.

MR. MCNEIL: If the Premier of Nova Scotia had the confidence in your ability to do the job, why would he have not kept you as Chief of Staff? Why would he have left you in that position for only four months? The Tuesday following a general election, he gives you the direction that you are being removed from that position.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We're going to back up just for a moment, and we must give credit where credit is due. The Bedford issue was not my doing - thank you for giving me that credit - but I will . . .

MR. MCNEIL: First of all, I don't know if I would accept credit for that . . .

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It's not mine, it wasn't my doing so I think just to set the record straight, that was my husband who - we're married, live in the same house, but that was his project, not mine.

MR. MCNEIL: It goes to the point that the Premier is the Premier today because of the manipulation which took place in Bedford during the delegate process for his leadership, and he owed you and July 12^th was payday. That is basically what we're talking about, let's cut right to it.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The Premier asked me to be his chief of staff because he knew I was capable and able to provide that to him.

MR. MCNEIL: And Nova Scotians would accept that, quite frankly; Nova Scotians would say, you know what, the chief of staff is a political appointment and it should be. You were in that position for four months and then you were moved into this highly-paid position, to Conserve Nova Scotia, which the vision wasn't even clear. The vision is coming from the Premier's Office, not even the Department of Energy.

Earlier in a statement, you said the Premier was deciding which department this fit under. If he didn't know that it fit under the Department of Energy, what is the purpose of this? It clearly looks like he created the position to move you from chief of

staff to another civil servant position, on the hook for the taxpayers of Nova Scotia. Am I wrong?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It has been a very long time that the Premier has shown interest in energy efficiency and conservation. Most of our sister provinces already have agencies that are set up and the states that we work with in the U.S., set up to do just this. It is time . . .

MR. MCNEIL: Do you support the Premier's position of removing the HST from home heating oil and energy consumption in this province?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: What we're doing - that is a short-term . . .

MR. MCNEIL: Do you support that?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That is a short-term . . .

MR. MCNEIL: Do you support that?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I am working to conserve energy in Nova Scotia.

MR. MCNEIL: Do you support that position of removing the HST from home heating oil and energy?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: That particular program is being launched by Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.

MR. MCNEIL: Do you support that position?

MADAM CHAIR: Order. Ms. Foley Melvin, would you please answer the question.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Will I receive a rebate on my oil after January 1^st?

MR. MCNEIL: Do you support the position of the Government of Nova Scotia to removed the HST from home heating oil and energy in this province today?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I think it is very good of the Government of Nova Scotia to offer insulation against high energy prices this winter.

MR. MCNEIL: That's not the question I asked you: do you support the position of the Government of Nova Scotia to remove the HST off home heating oil and other energy consumption in this province?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I support the Government of Nova Scotia.

MR. MCNEIL: Do you support the position to remove the HST from home heating oil and other energy consumption in this province? Yes or no.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: For the short term, I think it's a good value for Nova Scotians.

MR. MCNEIL: You are supposed to be the leader in energy conservation in this province. You tell me, give me one bit of information that would conclude to any Nova Scotian that they're going to conserve energy under that policy. Give me one example of how they're going to conserve energy.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: This is a short-term fix with a longer term solution, and I intend to provide the longer term solution.

MR. MCNEIL: You had just suggested to me, and to this committee, that removing the HST from home energy consumption will reduce consumption - how?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It will save Nova Scotians money this winter. I am going to introduce to Nova Scotians things that they can save money longer term.

MR. MCNEIL: Have you said to the Premier of Nova Scotia that this will not conserve energy - this is a tax break, period, plain and simple, this will not conserve energy? Have you said that to the Premier?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: No, I have not.

MR. MCNEIL: No. So you are the leader in energy conservation in this province, you are supposed to be leading the way. You are supposed to be giving direction to this government. When are you going to give direction to the government about conserving energy?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We launched our first program on October 20^th which was the Oil Appliance Rebate Program. That will help Nova Scotians use less oil, going forward, and we will introduce other methods, policies and programs that will help Nova Scotians save money and energy, going forward.

MR. MCNEIL: Well, Ms. Melvin, I hope that the policies you introduce are in the best interests of Nova Scotians, and not supporting under the guise of what has just happened with the Premier and saying the HST is an energy conservation method, which it isn't and you know it.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I assure you . . .

MR. MCNEIL: I will share the rest of my time.

MADAM CHAIR: Order, please. The time has now expired. I recognize Mr. Bain from the PC caucus. You have 14 minutes, until 10:51 a.m.

MR. KEITH BAIN: Madam Chair, I, too, will be sharing my time with my colleagues. I just have a couple of questions I guess. In your opening remarks this morning you said that five rebate programs are being offered and one of those is the EnerGuide for Houses. Could you expand on what the other programs might be that are out there, the remaining four, and maybe outline what's entailed in those programs?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Absolutely. You had mentioned the EnerGuide for Houses program. It was launched earlier this month and overall the rebate programs that are offered through the Smart Energy Choices Program and now through Conserve Nova Scotia have helped 5,000 Nova Scotians.

The EnerGuide for Houses program gives Nova Scotians up to $2,000 back on any retrofits that they might do to make their homes more energy efficient. Individuals begin with an A audit which is done by one of the three agencies that we've partnered with to come in to look at the energy efficiency of your home currently. They leave a rating from 1 to 100 with the homeowner. The consultants who are there also leave a list of the things that the person can do to make their home more energy efficient. They are called back after these updates have been made to do a B audit. Depending on the difference between the house rating prior to the retrofits being done and the house rating post will determine the amount of money that Nova Scotians will receive back, up to $2,000.

There's an EnerGuide for New Houses program which I mentioned in my opening comments. That program is so that you're going in smarter to build your house. You'll share your plans and get advice on your building plans to build a more energy efficient home. The one that we just launched, the program we launched on October 20^th, is to retire your furnace. It encourages Nova Scotians through rebates from both the government, and from the private sector, to upgrade their water heaters and their furnaces to more energy efficient models and there's up to $750 available in rebates. Over 60 per cent of Nova Scotians do heat their houses with oil, even though it is not the cleanest energy. It's reality. So those are people we need to reach out to and offer ways that they can save money and conserve energy.

We offer a wood appliance rebate which is $200 and it's on wood and wood pellet stoves. You can save up to 25 per cent of the wood you burn in any PA approved wood stove. So that is something that has gone over very well in Nova Scotia and a lot

of Nova Scotians are benefiting from. The last is a Solar Hot Water Rebate Program, which the uptake hasn't been that strong as of yet, but we are right now in plans to promote that even more, to encourage more Nova Scotians to take advantage of that. The rebate is 10 per cent up to $5,000.

MR. BAIN: I guess the solar one would be an excellent example. The program is not just going to be providing rebates for what's going to be happening. It's to promote and advance the whole program - you know, Conserve Nova Scotia. Not everything is going to rely on rebates - is that what I'm getting out of this? The education aspect has to be there and the rebates are just for now, and we move on? Where do you see yourself going with this?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: The ultimate goal would be to use this money in ways to help all Nova Scotians, some of which can't take advantage of these programs. Initially, to gather public interest, we need to provide incentives and rebates. The education is a much longer term goal which will educate Nova Scotians as to why this is so important, make them feel part of the solution, and we won't have to provide as many incentives and rebates going forward, and we'll spend more of our money on the behaviour change aspect.

MR. BAIN: You also mentioned too that a number of other provinces are involved and you did mention to my colleague about meeting with Elizabeth Weir in New Brunswick. I think it's Ontario, Saskatchewan - places like that - have similar programs to ours. I'm looking at the State of Vermont and I don't know how far you've checked that - not because I'm looking at the degree of their weather in comparison to ours. Have any ideas come out of their program? Not specifically Vermont, any of the provinces that are there. Are there ideas that would work here, in the broader picture?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Efficiency Vermont is one of the leading models in energy efficiency, be it through state or province. They've been at it a long time - they've grown to the place that they can actually sell efficiency cheaper than they can sell energy. Efficiency Vermont has - Allan and I, in fact, spent a great deal of time last week when we were in P.E.I. talking to the folks from Efficiency Vermont, and we plan to go down to learn what really has worked for them, so therefore not to reinvent the wheel, but to take some of the ideas that have been so successful there.

MR. BAIN: At this point, Madam Chair, I'm going to just turn it over to my colleague.

MADAM CHAIR: Okay. Mr. Dunn.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: Thank you. Just a couple of questions, one that you had made some comments on earlier. Education and youth have been certainly a valuable part

of my past, as a former vice-principal and principal of junior/senior high school. You mentioned in your earlier statements that education is a key component of your mandate.

I've personally witnessed a significant behavioural change in several schools in my area with regard to Clean Nova Scotia cleaning our province through student administration, cafeteria staff, student council and so on. They have made very significant changes in our schools. The question I have, because I believe if there are going to be long-term improvements, educating our youth is critical. Will there be a heavy emphasis placed on pre-school and elementary grades as you proceed to continue with your mandate?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Initially, we're working in P to 6. Our initial goal is to have a pilot project that will launch in one of the early elementary grades, and we will grow from there. But that's where we're working today. I think it's very important that we get to children in their early years before all of their habits are set.

[10:45 a.m.]

MR. DUNN: Can you see this program expanding into the middle school, high school, universities?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Absolutely. I think it will take on other aspects. I think waste management is already in the school system and it will move to energy efficiency, which will move to more of a climate change and sustainability umbrella that will work with Environment and Labour and the Department of Energy and their climate change staff. Absolutely, it's very important.

MR. DUNN: Thank you. Just one other question. You were discussing with one of our colleagues energy conservation, dealing with the solar systems, wind power, et cetera. Can you expand as far as - have you discussed initiatives with your staff in the brief time that you have been at this post?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: We actually had a staff meeting yesterday afternoon where we reviewed all of the programs that we currently have on the go, and we're now looking for new initiatives and new ideas. We tabled some ourselves and we're looking for their ideas and initiatives and then go forward to develop new policies and programs for Nova Scotians.

MR. DUNN: Thank you. I would like to turn it over to my colleague, Mr. Bain.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Bain.

MR. BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Earlier on the discussion took place about the HST rebate. Do you know what Parties in the Province of Nova Scotia opposed the HST rebate on home heating?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I do. I believe during the last election it was the (Interruption) Pardon me?

MR. COLWELL: It'll be a political answer.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It will be a political answer? I know the answer to the question. I believe there was a Party that was not supportive.

MR. BAIN: You believe there was? Would it be surprising to you to know that all Parties supported it, even Mr. McNeil and his Party? Is that a surprise?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I think Nova Scotians were happy about it; therefore, I think everyone would like their constituents to be happy about it.

MR. BAIN: I guess, Madam Chair, for the record, I find it sort of hypocritical for other members here to attack the witness for her support - or for the initiative that everyone here has supported. I just would like that for the record.

I would like to go on further, Madam Chair, if I could and follow up on the political side of it, I guess, to meeting with the different Parties. Have you been requested by the Opposition Parties to meet with them, to hear their ideas and some of their concerns? Have you had any requests as yet?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: I haven't, but I can say that during one of my stakeholder meetings, shortly after the election I had called upon the former Leader of the Liberal Party, Francis MacKenzie, to sit down and talk about what he saw as his vision in going forward because he was very interested in energy efficiency and conservation. So I did speak with him, but no, I haven't spoken with any others.

MR. BAIN: Would you be willing if they did request a meeting with you?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: Absolutely. Every Nova Scotian is a stakeholder and I think it's very important that there's input and that I seek advice. Absolutely.

MR. BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to turn it over to my colleague.

MADAM CHAIR: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Madam Chair, just one thing I wanted to touch on a little bit was, we've talked quite a bit about the consultants and my question is, are you aware that other levels of government use consultants for a variety of different projects? If so, do you know how that works, why that works that way?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: In the Province of Nova Scotia, there is a standing offer list, which many services are on, products and service, for that matter, and it is a common occurrence for departments to use consultants on various matters. It is a common occurrence.

MR. PORTER: Just so I'm clear, why is it then that we use consultants? What is the purpose of the consultant?

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: It's to receive expert help or to help on projects in which time is of the essence and it just can't be done with the resources that you have.

MR. PORTER: Thank you very much. Those are all the questions that we have, Madam Chair. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. Well, at this time that concludes the questioning portion of today's meeting. I would now like to invite our witness to make some concluding remarks. Before you do this, I want to indicate to you that the committee did ask for any documents pertaining to your appointment as CEO of Conserve Nova Scotia, including, but not limited to, the job description, the contract of employment and the CV. At the beginning of today's meeting, you indicated that there was an additional document, which we do not have, which should have been provided to this committee. You may respond to this, but I, as the Chair of this committee, would like you to know that it is the expectation of this committee, which is empowered through the House of Assembly, to receive any documents that are relevant, and we take a very dim view of not receiving those documents.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: My response, and I wasn't clear in the beginning and I meant to get back to clarify, the documents that were sent out yesterday were part of the R and R that went to Executive Council and the Charter of Conserve Nova Scotia. It wasn't part of my hiring process so it didn't meet the criteria that you were looking for. I guess my point was just to say that we're not hiding anything, we're not trying to keep anything from anyone. We're excited about our new mandate and we just want to get on with the work ahead of us, it is important.

MADAM CHAIR: You can now make your closing comments.

MS. FOLEY MELVIN: There are just two other things that I wanted to say. To the question of there being no competition, it's not unusual. The Government of Nova

Scotia makes appointments to various positions. Regardless of the Party, deputy ministers are chosen to serve at the pleasure of the current Premier. Historically, that's the governance system that we live in in Nova Scotia and in Canada, so it is not that unusual.

Also, our hiring practices at Conserve Nova Scotia will follow fair hiring practices for the Province of Nova Scotia. Our procurement at Conserve Nova Scotia will also follow fair procurement practices for the Province of Nova Scotia. So those are just a few clarifications.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you also to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for giving me the opportunity to tell you more about what Conserve Nova Scotia's mandate is and how we plan to go ahead. We have a lot of work ahead of us, it is important work. It is important work to you and your constituents. Saving money and reducing our greenhouse gas emissions is important to all Nova Scotians. We are a proud province, we are proud citizens, and this is just one more step that we can all make to be more proud of our province.

We will continue to help Nova Scotians use energy more efficiently, we will have much more to offer in the months and years ahead. This is about our future and our children's future, so I ask that you work with me in putting the policies and programs forward to the people of Nova Scotia. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. At this time we have one more item on our agenda, which is the adoption of the subcommittee report, which was circulated prior to today's meeting. Could I have a mover for that report? Moved by Mr. Porter.

Any discussion?

Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: There are two items before us from the subcommittee. I have to admit to having a great deal of difficulty with one of them. Just for the record, I want to note that one of the decisions reached by the subcommittee - one of the recommendations made - is that we delay any discussion of the S & J Potato and Magic Valley matter for four weeks.

Now the whole point, the whole purpose of having this on the agenda of the Public Accounts Committee was in order to decide whether we would make a report to House to the effect that legitimate questions had been put to witnesses and not answered. The only avenue left for the committee to deal with that very serious issue, people appearing before this committee and refusing to answer this committee's questions, which we also saw today, by coincidence, the purpose of that was to come before the

House and report, as a matter of privilege of the members, that these questions had been put and not answered.

By delaying it for four weeks, past any time that we expect the House to be sitting, I just want it to be very clear for the record, that effectively kills this issue. We, in the NDP, are opposed to that. I do want to note for the record that this issue of Magic Valley and S & J Potatoes is being killed by the Conservatives and Liberals working together and I think the people of Nova Scotia will draw their own conclusion from the fact that the Liberal Party, which once couldn't get enough of this issue, is now combining with the Conservatives to kill it.

MADAM CHAIR: Any further discussion on this matter?

MR. PORTER: Just to comment on that. I just want to be clear I guess for the committee, about the discussions of the subcommittee. You have three new members sitting in this caucus on this committee and our request was strictly to go through a number of documents that exist, to be briefed very well on anything that we may need to be - and there's a great deal of paperwork to go through - it's a must for us to do that so that we are very aware of what's going on with the situation when the time comes for discussion.

MADAM CHAIR: As the chair of the committee, I would just like to say that when the subcommittee met I indicated that it's not so much the documents that were to be the topic of discussion but, in fact, the legal advice that we received from Legislative Counsel with respect to bringing this matter forward, but it was the will of the majority of the subcommittee not to deal with this matter for four weeks.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, on this matter, it's important I think that all the members of the committee, regardless of what Party they're from, are fully aware of all the documentation that's in place on this and the very complex issue we're talking about. I know I've been on this from the beginning, and I know some of the members of the NDP caucus have been on it from the beginning, but not all our members had been, and definitely none of the Conservative members had been. I think it's only fair to the members to let them do the research they need to do and ensure that this is fully looked at by everybody because these are major decisions we're going to have to make down the road.

I wouldn't want to have anyone to be able to say that they didn't have time to review the documentation. I know it took me weeks and weeks to go through it as we were going through it, as it did my colleagues who were serving on the committee with me at the time. That's the only reason that we supported that approach, or I supported that approach, in the subcommittee, but I think after they've had time to review the

documents - and then we've already decided we would bring it back to the subcommittee for further discussion, so it's not dead.

MADAM CHAIR: I don't want to be argumentative, but really the documents were largely blank. It really doesn't take that long to go through blank documents, which is the whole point - but, anyway, could I ask now for the adoption of the subcommittee report?

It has been moved. The question is called. Would all those in favour please signify.

The adoption of the subcommittee report has occurred.

We now stand adjourned. (Interruption) Sorry. Pardon me?

MR. STEELE: You didn't ask for votes against, Madam Chair. I just want to make it clear that we in the NDP caucus . . .

MADAM CHAIR: Do you want a recorded vote?

MR. STEELE: No, no, that's not what I'm saying. You didn't ask who was opposed and I just wanted for the record to note that we are opposed to the motion.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you very much.

We stand adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 10:59 a.m.]