HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. David Wilson, Glace Bay (Chairman)

Hon. David Morse

Hon. Christopher d'Entremont

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Percy Paris

Mr. Michel Samson

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Mr. Chuck Porter was replaced by Hon. Brooke Taylor.]

In Attendance:

Ms. Jana Hodgson

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Neil Ferguson

Legislative Counsel

WITNESSES

Executive Council Operations

Mr. Robert Abbott

Executive Director

Ms. Jeannine Lagasse

Senior Corporate Policy Analyst, Governance & Accountability

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MARCH 31, 2009

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, I call the meeting to order. We have a number of things to deal with today but I think, because of the weather outside, let's just move right to the presenters that we have here this morning. We won't be dealing with any appointments to agencies, boards and commissions today and we'll explain that to you later on as to why. So let's just ask our guests, please, to introduce - sorry, our members to introduce themselves first and then our guests will introduce themselves.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. If you would, our guests today are from the Executive Council Operations. Would you like to introduce yourselves, please.

MR. ROBERT ABBOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. My name is Bob Abbott, I'm the Executive Director of the Executive Council Operations branch.

MS. JEANNINE LAGASSE: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. My name is Jeannine Lagasse and I'm Senior Corporate Policy Analyst, Governance and Accountability.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The purpose of our guests being here today is, number one, to give us an explanation of a change, I guess, in operations involving the advertising of agencies, boards and commission appointments. (Interruption) Okay, sorry, the Web site and the brochure that's going to be distributed as part of the ABC appointments or whatever.

I don't know if you have a formal presentation, Mr. Abbott, or would you just like to do a brief presentation to us and then we'll open it up for questions from the members.

MR. ABBOTT: I'll just make a brief statement, Mr. Chairman. Of course we are here at the request of the committee, through invitation, to come and speak about the brochure that has been produced and the ABC Web site that has been created by the Executive Council Office. We can also speak on other initiatives that are going on in our office with respect to the overall ABC appointment process. In particular, the brochure that you've noted is a result of work that has taken place between the Subcommittee on Human Resources, which was working with Communications Nova Scotia to find new ways of advertising, new ways of reaching out to Nova Scotians to apply.

There was a feeling, I believe, both at this committee level and within our office that some of the forms of advertising were perhaps somewhat outdated, maybe complicated in the way that they were presented in the newspapers. There was an effort to try to make the advertising more attractive, more appealing, more user-friendly, so we believe that the brochure is part of that effort of bringing Nova Scotians forward to apply.

The brochure was made available to all MLAs, to their offices, and I believe that they have been placed in other locations across Nova Scotia, Access Nova Scotia Centres and some of the public libraries. The brochure also directs applicants to the Executive Council Office Web site where they will be introduced to the new database that has been created, where there is more information today than there has been ever before. There the applicants will get specifics on the particular agencies, boards and commissions, the profile, the legislative authority that creates it and other relevant information. We believe that all of these initiatives have been made in support of the efforts of the committee and the subcommittee, and we're open to any questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Abbott. Are there any questions? Mr. Samson.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Abbott and Ms. Lagasse. In my 11 years I can certainly say there seems to be more of an effort being made to publicize the agencies, boards and commissions in the information that's available on the Web site. I'm curious if you could inform the committee, where are we application-wise today compared to two years ago or five years ago? Are we still receiving as many applications or - as I'm very suspicious - are we seeing less applications being made to join an agency, board or commission?

[9:15 a.m.]

MR. ABBOTT: Probably we are on par with previous years. It's always a struggle or an effort, however you want to coin it, to get qualified applicants to come forward. The reasons for it are probably varied. One, there are over 200 agencies, boards and commissions in Nova Scotia - I don't have the exact number but I think it's 230-plus ABCs. Nova Scotia

has a relatively small population. Some of the positions are specialized in the sense that the profile of the candidate that you're looking for is specialized and therefore it's just natural that it's going to be difficult to find the appropriate candidate to fill those spots.

What is happening in Nova Scotia is no different than what is happening in other provinces across the country. We communicate with other provinces on this issue and other provinces are having similar challenges to populate their particular boards. In general, I think Nova Scotia is doing a good job in this particular field and these changes in efforts, in advertising - whether it's in print or whether it's in the electronic world - we won't know if it will make a difference until some time in the future, if it attracts more people.

What we've also communicated to the various departments - because it is primarily their responsibility to populate the agencies, boards and commissions - the Executive Council Office is performing a coordinating role, we help in those efforts. But if a department wants to target, we certainly encourage that. In other words, if a department wants to go to the Barrister's Society or the Professional Engineers Association or any particular group and specifically target, by all means, we would encourage that. So the efforts to populate the ABCs are not simply through the advertising campaign that takes place in the Fall and the Spring.

MR. SAMSON: I'm curious and I'm not sure if you have this information or not, Mr. Abbott, but how do we compare with other provinces in the fact that we have this actual committee here that gives its last approval to applications? Where are other provinces, whether they be Atlantic Provinces or even elsewhere in the country, when it comes to the appointment process? Does a similar committee such as this exist in all other provinces or are other provinces still having those decisions made by Cabinet only?

MR. ABBOTT: To the best of my knowledge, Nova Scotia is the only jurisdiction that has a committee such as this which has the power to approve or not approve a recommendation that Cabinet makes.

MR. SAMSON: As far as you're aware, we're the only jurisdiction?

MS. LAGASSE: The Province of Ontario does have a committee also, but its function is a bit different than this particular committee. There is a House committee in Ontario also, but that's the only other province.

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Abbott, I'm curious on this - and you may not be able to answer this and feel free just to say you can't answer it - is one of the reasons why people do not apply for membership on ABCs in Nova Scotia because of this committee?

MR. ABBOTT: I don't think so. In fact, in my opinion, most of the people who apply are not aware of the committee and the role of the committee. I don't personally believe that the existence of the committee and its work to approve or not approve has any bearing whatsoever on who applies to an agency, board or commission. I'd be very surprised to find out that's the case.

Again, there are over 200 agencies, boards and commissions and we have a population of 940,000. If you start from the top and work your way down the number of people in this province below 18 years of age, the seniors, people who have already served, the stay-at-home parents who aren't coming out, the pool of which we have to choose from is really quite small. Within that pool there are those who serve maybe one or two terms. In some cases, the legislation says that you're a two-term appointment and there are also cases where people have served and they've said, well, I've done my public duty, I've served and I'm not interested in serving again. So long answer, no, I don't believe the committee and its existence has anything to do with the appointment process.

MR. SAMSON: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Samson. Ms. Whalen.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you. I had a couple of questions around access to those committees. I know we've talked a lot here about the number of applicants we were seeing because we see the tail end of the whole process and looking at it and seeing that there weren't many women who were applying and there aren't many people of sort of visible minorities that we want to see representing our province on these various committees. So in designing the brochure and coming up with a new Web site, have you also gone further - which I know some of the earlier subcommittee meetings had talked about and I think it may have been even three or four years ago that we talked about reaching out to particularly - I'll speak more about women's groups, let's do that - and say, how do we contact more women through the women's centres and those kinds of access points for women? Can we just talk about that and maybe you could give me a view on that?

MS. LAGASSE: I think what we tried to do with the brochure, and certainly in the work that was originally done on the campaign for the advertising, is to profile people who are actually on the boards. So what we've tried to do is find as diverse people as we can to actually appear in the advertising as one of the ways to try to get people to see themselves and to broaden our base as much as possible.

What we've done, as Bob said earlier, with the brochure is it has been distributed to all of the MLA offices, it's gone to all of the Access Nova Scotia Centres and we've also been working with other stakeholder groups that we have access to within the province, such as the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, the Office of African Nova Scotian

Affairs, and the Office of Acadian Affairs. They all have copies of it also and have been really encouraged to speak with their stakeholders and to go out.

I know that certainly the Advisory Council on the Status of Women have been doing that. Their council members have taken the brochures out into their communities and we've been working with them on things like that. So we're trying, as much as we can, to get a broader network. We're also really encouraging all of the MLAs to speak about it in their communities and to try to get as many people as possible to come forward. We want to get as many people applying as possible, that we can get them into the application system, and then hopefully we'll be able to find as diverse a population as possible from that.

MS. WHALEN: You mentioned earlier about talking to the departments, that they are ultimately responsible for bringing names forward to Executive Council. So have you done the same sort of - has there been any directive to them to do the same thing, to actively seek out the stakeholder groups and to make sure that these brochures and the Web site get in their hands? Have you done that too?

MR. ABBOTT: Yes. The departments, for one, on a day-to-day basis, they're governed by an Employment Equity Policy which, on February 16^th, I provided a copy to the committee. In addition, the Government of Nova Scotia also produces an annual report on diversity, which I've also supplied a copy to the committee. So it's an ongoing process within departments. It doesn't happen once a year, it happens every day. It's an ongoing process of having a diverse workforce, so the same efforts that are made within the government departments are made to populate the agencies, boards and commissions.

One of the - I'm hesitant to use the word "difficulties" - in knowing, it is, I guess, a challenge in the sense that when people apply, it's difficult for us to know. In the Executive Council Office, we maintain a database but it's difficult for us to be able to tell anybody, especially the committee, what the makeup of the ABCs are because, as in government departments, you have to self-identify yourself to be one of the designated groups. So it is self-identification.

We've talked to the Status of Women and we've talked to the Disabled Persons Commission about this, and the advice that we're given is we probably shouldn't go further than where we are on this self-identification. There's a feeling, particularly with the Disabled Persons Commission, that people want to be judged based upon their qualifications and not on a designated group. In fact, the feeling in some circles is that by forcing people to self-identify, the effect might be just the opposite, you might not get the same level of applications.

MS. WHALEN: You mention that as one of the difficulties, but I'd like to go to the timelines for applications as a difficulty that we've seen. Perhaps you could tell me if there's been any improvement in terms of the long delays between people submitting a resumé and

saying I'd like to serve, and then literally one or two years going by where they often have heard nothing in the meantime, not even an acknowledgment of it, they've forgotten about it completely.

I can say this from a community level, that often when people are at the point that they're ready to do something, they're looking for a volunteer activity or they want to join a committee, they're ready now. I mean you go back to them in two years, well, they've found something else, they're working for the Red Cross now or doing something different. So we miss that time of being able to respond quickly and letting people know whether or not they are qualified and whether or not they're being looked at. So how are we doing on the timelines? Have we been able to make some progress there? I mean, it was extreme before.

MS. LAGASSE: We've tried to introduce, as Bob said, along with the advertising side of things, some improvements in the overall process and the timeline is a big concern and we hear a lot of that from the agencies ourselves, who we work with.

What we've tried to do is give people better information at the front end, when their application comes in, that we're in the process right now of creating a new acknowledgment letter that actually sets out for the people the process that the application goes through and then directs them to the new Web site, where they can get more detailed information about the process.

I think as Bob referred to earlier, a lot of people don't understand, too, all of the steps that go into the process, so we're trying to get better information out about that. Also, we've been working with the departments - each department has an ABC coordinator in it - to talk to them about the timeliness of convening screening panels to screen applications and to keep the process moving along as quickly as possible. So we're trying to introduce process improvements to keep the system moving as quickly as possible.

MS. WHALEN: Can I ask, Ms. Lagasse, is this letter ready now and being used, or are we just producing it now, developing it?

MS. LAGASSE: It has been produced but what we're just working on now is to link it to the new database that we have in our office, so that the letters can be automatically produced via the database when applications are introduced. So we're just working on the IT solution right now.

MS. WHALEN: Do you think some committees are going ahead and just bringing people on board and waiting for the official sort of approval later? I had one case like that in my community where I called somebody and said, it's wonderful, your name has just come forward at the committee and I see you're going to be serving and she said, oh, I've been helping that committee for two years. So because she had an interest, she was already there.

Now, she obviously wasn't officially approved and the stamp wasn't on the approval, but are the committees so short of people that they need to bring the people in and start getting them going? I'm not going to name the committee, because clearly that's not the usual. She was surprised it had been here, she didn't even know it was coming here.

MR. ABBOTT: I have no knowledge - I guess I would say I would assume that's an unusual case. I do not believe that is standard fare.

[9:30 a.m.]

MS. WHALEN: Do I have a minute for another one?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.

MS. WHALEN: I don't know how strict you are with time. There are fewer of us here today so I guess . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: We're pretty flexible, go ahead.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask you again about the - around the process and the priority that this gets in the department and in the various departments because I think it has been a really low priority, as Ms. Lagasse said, you had to encourage people to meet more frequently and get those approved.

I think right now it's one of those small tasks that has just been overlooked up to this point in time. It's very good that you've redesigned the Web site and that there's a spotlight being shined on this whole process so that we can get all of the buy-in, because I think you talk about the outside stakeholders but we need buy-in within government that this is an important function. I think you might agree with me on that and I think maybe your steps to date have shown that, as well, as we go forward.

What I would like to see is that this becomes something a lot more important to everybody. I think one of the problems, again, is the 230-plus agencies, boards and commissions that you mention. Is there any move to review those and see if, indeed, they're all required - are they necessary, could some of them merge together, or could we get rid of some of them - so that we are a bit more streamlined?

MR. ABBOTT: That would be a decision of government. I can say that over the past 10 years government has eliminated approximately 100 agencies, boards and commissions because in 1999 that number was over 300. So it's down considerably over the past 10 years.

MS. WHALEN: Are you suggesting it wasn't done in a really deliberate way, though, that it has just been happening almost by chance? I think we need to look at them, somebody needs to look at them. Maybe each department needs to be charged with going out, reviewing them and seeing if they really make sense because, as you said, times change, situations may become obsolete, that sort of thing. So are they still necessary, are they meeting regularly, are they an essential committee for the province?

Has there been any suggestion that that kind of an internal review could be done? I think, really, government needs advice on that. I don't believe the ministers would be looking at that, they haven't got time to look at that and unless somebody suggests there's a problem with having too many they would not consider it. I'm suggesting 230 is a lot because you've mentioned it's very difficult to get people for them and to make the process work. There's nothing more you can say about that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't see an answer forthcoming, Ms. Whalen, so I'll step in and say thank you very much. It's certainly outside the mandate of this committee. Mr. Paris.

MR. PERCY PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to pick up on MLA Whalen's questions around diversity. I think one of the things that this committee, since I've been a member, has consistently brought up is the issue around some equity issues. Although you've redesigned your brochure and you've taken some steps around advertising - and I heard you mention the Disabled Persons Commission and the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, am I to interpret that it is their sole responsibility to make sure that advertisement gets to those other stakeholders that aren't normally represented on those ABCs?

MR. ABBOTT: The responsibility to - and I'll use the term - populate the respective agencies, boards and commissions belongs to the respective department. If a department has non-adjudicative boards it is that department's responsibility to ensure that those boards are populated. What the Executive Council Office does is we assist the departments in advertising and promoting the vacancies that exist. We assist by, twice a year, in the Spring and the Fall, putting together bulk advertising that is in most of the daily newspapers and there are targeted newspapers - the Mi'kmaq Maliseet, Le Courrier, Street Feat, I won't get them all.

The departments will come to us on occasion and will say, we believe we need a particular skill set on our board, do you have any ideas, do you have any suggestions? We will ask them about the particular skill sets and might suggest specific targeting. Diversity is always in the forefront, it's just part of the fabric of the Nova Scotia workforce. It's in policy, there's an annual report on it in the Public Service, there is an initiative that is undertaken by the Public Service Commission - and I will probably not get the name correct, but it's Count Yourself In - or there's a survey.

In fact, I just participated in the survey myself as a civil servant where the Public Service Commission is asking civil servants to self-identify - do you belong to a designated group? I think last year out of the survey of probably thousands of civil servants who participated, I believe somewhere in the range of 837, or whatever, civil servants self-identified.

So diversity is always at the forefront, but you can only choose from those applicants that have applied. In some cases, and I can switch to what Ms. Whalen was referring to, people apply and they don't get chosen and it can be frustrating. To populate these boards is quite often - you're targeting perhaps regional representation. If that is the case, if you have a board that says we want someone from northern Nova Scotia or from southwestern Nova Scotia or from Cape Breton Island, and six out of seven people who apply are from HRM and only one from the particular area, what does the department do? It's a matter of choices.

Quite often in making those choices, the department may be faced with - out of the six from HRM, there is a candidate who meets the designated group, but your goal is regional representation. Perhaps the candidate that meets the diversity is not qualified - might be great on that board but doesn't fit the profile for this particular vacancy. So it's complex.

MR. PARIS: I heard you talk about policies and that type of thing, but do ABCs have a reporting process? Do they report to their departments that maybe in turn may report to you with respect to the lack of diversity on any one board?

MR. ABBOTT: There is no direct reporting back to the Executive Council Office because, as I mentioned earlier, one of the difficulties with respect to knowing who is on a particular board, other than names, is the issue of self-identification. Unless people in the application process identify themselves as a diversity candidate, then we have no way of knowing. The department people may or may not know that as well; it's a matter of self-identification and that's something that we're not prepared to step beyond. That would entail a policy decision of government to move into the realm of self-identification.

MR. PARIS: And if I heard you correctly, with respect to the advertising, there are specific places where you do advertise, but other than that you rely upon the Disabled Persons Commission and like agencies, the Department of African Nova Scotian Affairs, to spread the word as well?

MR. ABBOTT: In as many forms as possible, yes. Of course, the ads are public for every Nova Scotian to access. They're in the newspapers, these brochures are now in Access Nova Scotia Centres, we direct them to our Web site - of course, not everybody has access to a computer. Could we do more? Possibly, but at the moment we believe that every Nova Scotian has access to the vacancies that exist and it's up to Nova Scotians to apply.

MR. PARIS: And access may be one thing, but also there's that one of welcoming. There are a lot of people in many communities in Nova Scotia who may have access to something, but if the welcome mat is not out there, then having the access doesn't mean a whole lot.

MR. ABBOTT: I would agree with that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Paris. Mr. Samson, you have a quick question?

MR. SAMSON: Yes, Mr. Abbott, in light of your last comment about not everyone having access to a computer, I'm wondering, have the brochures been made available at CAP sites around the province - which I know in my community, for example, are very popular, especially for the areas not serviced by high-speed or even any type of Internet. I'm just curious, if it's not currently being done, I would certainly recommend that it be sent to the CAP sites, as well, because I know they play a very important role, especially in rural Nova Scotia where people don't have easy access to a computer. That would be where they would go to access a computer, so it would be a great place for them to see those brochures and be able to get that information at the same time.

MR. ABBOTT: We can look into that.

MS. LAGASSE: Also, in all of the advertising it refers to our Web site, which does have all the information on it, but it also has all of the Executive Council Office information on it. So one of the people in our office takes those calls - there's a toll-free number for throughout the province. If someone called and said, I've seen this advertisement and I don't have access to a computer, will you send me the information that's on the Web site, we will forward that information to them by mail, absolutely.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions? Well, okay, first of all I'd like to thank our guests today. Not only was it good of you to attend and answer our questions, but in the weather, to make it through, we very much appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to appear before us. Do you have any closing statement that you'd like to make before you leave?

MR. ABBOTT: Just, Mr. Chairman, that we're open to suggestions, if the committee has suggestions on a go-forward basis, on how we can improve the process and to broaden the reach, the scope of advertising. We're certainly open because probably too much cannot be done in this area, so we're more than willing to work with the committee on bettering the process.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Abbott, we appreciate your co-operation, thanks. You can get up and leave - I won't ask you to stay through the rest of what will be a rather mundane meeting. Shall we continue on?

You all received an e-mail from me - or you should have - I believe, regarding the appointments to the ABCs, the March appointments. There was an e-mail that went out that advised that Cabinet did not meet during the March break, so the Form "A"s - together with various support documents for appointments to the ABCs - weren't available for distribution to the Human Resources Committee one week prior to the committee meeting. That is a very strict requirement under the Rules and Forms of Procedure of the House of Assembly.

[9:45 a.m.]

The names are now available and the clerk has them today but we can't deal with them. For that explanation, I'll turn it over to Legislative Counsel, Mr. Ferguson. Would you just give us a brief explanation.

MR. NEIL FERGUSON: Briefly, while the committees generally have a lot of power to govern their own procedures, you will all know that this particular committee has terms of reference set up in the rules unlike any of the others, and it's a long-standing authority that if the House has said these are your terms of reference, then it's not open to the committee - even unanimously - to depart from those. I have, if anyone cares to see them, the authorities from Marleau and Beauchesne, and it was even ruled on specifically in 1972 by the then Speaker Mitchell. So even if you were to decide unanimously, you do not have the power.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Understood by everyone? So I would suggest now that we perhaps decide whether we're going to leave these names and appointments to our next regularly scheduled meeting or should we have a special meeting to deal with them before that time? Any suggestions? Mr. Samson.

MR. SAMSON: Has there been any request from Executive Council to appoint these people before our next meeting in April?

MR. CHAIRMAN: None.

MR. SAMSON: Then I so move that we move these to our next regularly scheduled meeting in April.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, our next regularly scheduled meeting is April 28^th at 9:00 a.m. We also have a witness to appear that day, the Department of Labour and Workforce Development, but we'll deal with whatever batch of ABCs we have.

The names that the Committees Office has now will be distributed and sent in the regular fashion to members so that everyone is available.

We also have a report from the subcommittee meeting on February 18^th, which was so long ago that I can't really remember. We met on February 18^th and discussed the bulk ad for the Fall of 2008. We also discussed application forms and the new ABC Web site, which you heard about today from Mr. Abbott. Based on those discussions, the subcommittee recommended to create an application form for ABCs to be filled by an applicant - one page, simple form - and make it available on the Web site, and also to add to the guidelines form the date when an applicant first applied for the position, which is not there now. There was some discussion on that - Ms. Whalen, did you have that discussion? No.

MS. WHALEN: It was a question we've been asking, though, about just how long - that two and three years go by and people forgot that they applied.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So basically we want to keep track of that and we thought a good way to do that would be to have it on the application form. So if the committee agrees, we'll take those recommendations and pass them on to Executive Council to see if those changes can be made. Any discussion on that? Is it agreed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We were also supposed to have a discussion today on the Affirmative Action Policy review, but I notice that there are a number of regular members of this committee not here today and I would prefer if we could have those members in attendance to discuss that. I know, in particular, that Ms. Massey has raised it several times and I'm sure she would want to be a part of that discussion.

MR. PARIS: Absolutely.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, agreed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You're very agreeable today, I love this. Is there anything else that anyone wants to discuss? Am I missing anything, Jana, who is the only real person who knows what's going on here?

If not, then I apologize for going ahead with the meeting today, despite the weather, but I thought most people would be here and I was here anyway, so I appreciate your making the effort to turn out. We know that it wasn't the best of conditions.

Having no other discussion on anything, then I would adjourn the meeting. Thanks everyone.

[The committee adjourned at 9:49 a.m.]