HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. David Wilson, Glace Bay (Chairman)

Hon. David Morse

Hon. Christopher d'Entremont

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Percy Paris

Mr. Michel Samson

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Ms. Diana Whalen was replaced by Mr. Keith Colwell.]

In Attendance:

Ms. Jana Hodgson

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, JANUARY 27, 2009

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

MR. CHAIRMAN: If we can get underway, we'll call the meeting to order. We'll start with introductions.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone. We've got, as you see on your agenda, several items to deal with under Committee Business, but first if we could just deal with Agency, Board and Commission Appointments. If we want to just roll through them, there aren't too many of them. Is that agreed?

The first one is the Department of Justice, Board of Governors for the Law Foundation of Nova Scotia. Mr. Morse.

HON. DAVID MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd be pleased to move Joshua Arnold as a member of the Board of Governors of the Law Foundation of Nova Scotia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The RCMP Advisory Boards for several communities. We'll do them one by one, I guess, if you wish. The Town of Annapolis Royal, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd be pleased to move David Brown as a member of the Town of Annapolis Royal's RCMP Advisory Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

For Cumberland County, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd be pleased to move Esther Boyd as a member of Cumberland County's RCMP Advisory Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

For the Town of Digby, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would be pleased to move Danny Robinson as a member of the Town of Digby's RCMP Advisory Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

For the Town of Mahone Bay, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I'd be pleased to move Mr. Richard Nowe as a member of the Town of Mahone Bay's RCMP Advisory Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The final one is for Inverness, Mulgrave and Port Hawkesbury. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd be pleased to move Mr. Robert Hannigan as a member of Inverness, Mulgrave and Port Hawkesbury's RCMP Advisory Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The first item of business, I think if we can just agree, Ms. Massey, your motion was the next item up there, which we can deal with. Perhaps we can move that down to later on in the agenda, if it's okay with you.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We'll skip the first two, actually. Let's go to the letter from Mr. Colwell regarding the "gas and dash" issue. Glad to have Mr. Colwell here today substituting, to fully explain everything.

I think you've got it in your correspondence where we referred the matter to the Economic Development Committee and the Economic Development Committee replied with a letter stating that they felt it was not their jurisdiction to deal with that and they've asked us to re-look at the request, from a health and safety point of view. So it's up for discussion, folks. I don't know what to do here. Ms. Massey.

[9:15 a.m.]

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have re-read the letter from Mr. Dexter and I've read notes from the Committee on Economic Development from Hansard, from the portion that applies to this. I would have to agree that originally we did try to bring it forward to this committee and the Economic Development Committee agrees that it should be here.

If you look at Mr. Dexter's letter, the last sentence in it does talk about the issue of ensuring that we adopt the best safety practices to prevent injuries related to "gas and dash" thefts. So I don't see why we can't reconsider looking at this from a human resource/health and safety point of view, so I would have to agree with that motion.

I would make a motion:

The Human Resources Committee bring forward the appropriate witnesses to deal with the issue of "gas and dash" and how it applies to safety practices.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, you have in your packages a memorandum from our legal counsel so I wanted to hear from Mr. Hebb as to whether or not we have, in your opinion, the jurisdiction to deal with this issue.

MR. GORDON HEBB: What I've said in a very brief memo to you is that there are two aspects. There is, the safety issue, which I think would come under the Department of Labour and Workforce Development - and I'll speak to that further in a second - and then there's just the regulation of that particular industry, the gasoline industry, which comes under Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations.

As I read the rules, unfortunately the rules - which haven't been amended since 1999 - talk about specific departments and, as you know, departments get changed and names combined and responsibilities changed. As best as I can determine, the rules - which don't talk about Service Nova Scotia because it didn't exist at the time of the rules that the committee put - they reference the Department of Business and Consumer Services. I think if you trace through the legislation, which I did, that those responsibilities have moved to Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations and that would come under the Community Services Committee. So depending on which aspect of the thing you're interested in, if it's the health and safety point of view - I think it is - it is this committee. If it is more just the regulation of that particular industry, then it would be Community Services.

Now, having said that, the other thing we found is there is a provision - I'll just remind you, you probably are all aware of it - that was passed in 2005. I've got you an excerpt there from the Labour Standards Code which deals with not so much safety but financial responsibility of the employees who might be the victim of this failure to pay, which the Legislature dealt with a few years ago. As well, there are regulations which I've attached - Violence in the Workplace Regulations - which were effective as of April 4, 2007, which either passed by Cabinet or the Department of Labour, and also a report, A Guide to the Violence in the Workplace Regulations.

The reason I mentioned it is because if you look in that report, there is a reference to "gas and dash". Basically what it says on Page 18:

"Incidents of 'gas and dash' were also discussed by the assessors during this assessment. Although a gas and dash is a type of robbery that could occur in the workplace, the assessors decided that it is highly unlikely that violence would ensue as a result of a gas and dash. This would continue to be addressed through regular health and safety issues (i.e. contacting the police regarding the robbery)."

You'll notice there is a reference to "gas and dash" up there in the table and that's the only reference to it in this particular report. Anyway, that's what I found from my little bit of research.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess we would have no problem, as a government caucus, supporting the health and safety and the well-being of any workers in this province. Regardless of whether it's regulatory - and I don't believe it is, I think it's a safety issue. If someone wants to discuss it, our caucus would be open to that discussion and hearing from any potential witnesses, I think.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have just a minor concern myself and that's a matter of arranging for the witnesses to appear and whether or not we would have to tie up several weeks of committee meetings to hear everyone involved, or if we could do it in one session. I think perhaps if we could aim for that - Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, and that's an interesting point you raise, I was wondering about that as well. I wasn't thinking so much maybe the actual worker who may have been involved or not, but representation from - whether it's the Department of Labour, I'm not sure who we're looking at here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Off the top of my head, probably the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association and perhaps we can - the letter came from Mr. Dexter, so perhaps we can ask the members of the NDP caucus to come up with a potential list of witnesses. Is that possible?

MS. MASSEY: Sure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker, welcome to the meeting.

MR. CHARLES PARKER: Thank you. In Mr. Dexter's letter, his suggestion was that we hear from the retail dealers, the oil companies, the department, and from health and safety representatives. So those four suggestions are in there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, you're right, sorry. The easiest way maybe to deal with that is to add - Jana, maybe we'll just add that to our list of future agenda items coming up and we'll deal with it later on.

As for the motion, if you want to deal with that now, there is a motion on the floor so, Ms. Massey, do you want to further that - well, let's vote on the motion. What was it again? You don't feel a need to vote on it?

MS. MASSEY: No, we can vote on it. I don't think we need further discussion on it, I think everybody agrees with it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If there's no further discussion then, would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

After years of consideration, the matter of "gas and dash" is finally dealt with.

MR. MORSE: Well, it has made the list.

HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: How long has it gone back and forth?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Not that long, actually. I'd like to thank the Chairman of the Economic Development Committee for getting back to us right away. (Laughter) It's one of the few letters that we've actually written that have been responded to in a quick fashion. Usually we don't even get an answer.

Next we'll deal with the subcommittee on advertising and - what else are we dealing with there, Jana? Yes, the administration of advertising as well. The subcommittee has not met. Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Since I am still really new to the HR Committee, I want to try to understand (Interruption) Well, I've only been here about a year, a year and some now, which I find still new because I haven't seen everything yet. I'm just wondering, with the administration of the advertising, it's my understanding that it's a bit of an issue where a lot of the lists and the work is being done by Executive Council and the advertising is being taken care of by the Committees Office. And also with an overlay, the Committees Office really doesn't have a budget for the advertising of said advertising.

I'm just wondering whether this is an issue that should still be considered at this committee or whether advertising should be sent back to Executive Council who, in my understanding, is interested in having it back to try to continue that flow. The issue I'm going to underline is that sometimes departments are not aware of who to go to when they need to find advertising or advertise positions for their boards, and I'm going to underline one at Community Services. We weren't on the last listing of advertising for availabilities because they called Executive Council and didn't call the Committees Office. So I'm just wondering if there's a way to maybe streamline this a little bit and send it all back to Executive Council.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, what a coincidence that you should ask that. There is, as a matter of fact, a way to do exactly that and we've been - the committee has been approached, and in particular Committees Office staff have told me that they simply do not have the resources or the budget necessary to administer the advertising part. So the Executive Council is set up to administer exactly that. The process, as I understand it, would

be faster and easier and more efficient for everybody involved, but especially for individual government departments.

As I understand it, that's the proposal - to put everything in the hands of the Executive Council. Does anyone have a problem with that? Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Well, I don't know if I have a problem with it, but would the other option be for the committee to have funding for advertising?

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a reasonable question - I don't have the answer. Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: The point is, I mean advertising is one thing, where the budget is available, from my understanding. But the other issue is that there's a full system on tracking positions with Executive Council that would be easy to marry-up. Right now, they're not married because they're in two different places, so we're just trying to find the efficiency of this and also the fact that there's no budget here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I would just add to the conversation that my understanding is it was actually designed to be with Executive Council and it was at the request of this committee some number of years ago that it be transferred here. They did accommodate the Human Resources Committee but in actual fact, from an organizational point of view, that is the central collecting point for everything. It's the focal point for this and the departments do go there naturally because the budget is there - although you could move the budget. But still, it does seem to be the go-to place. So I think it just logically makes sense to leave it with them to place the ads and then if they do not place an ad for a department, we will make them aware.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hebb and then Mr. Parker.

MR. HEBB: Mr. Morse has really touched on what I was going to say. It's not really in the mandate if you look at things, it's not really in the mandate of the committee to do the advertising.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: I'm just trying to figure - the last number of years, this committee has been doing the advertising. Obviously then we had the budget, had the money to do it, haven't we? Who has actually paid for it? I'm sure it's all government money but . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think - for clarification, we have the budget for the advertising, is that correct? I'm new to this position. Jana, help me out.

MS. JANA HODGSON (Legislative Committee Clerk): From what I understand, we do not have the budget. We had to borrow the money from other places to make it work. Then the money had to sort of be shuffled in for the advertising and then they had to be collected from the departments. Departments actually pay for the advertising, so we had to collect money individually and put it back in our budget. So there's a lot of . . .

MR. PARKER: So it's an organizational mumbo-jumbo here to make it all work.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's a streamlining to make it easier and nothing changes in terms of - as Mr. Morse said, if the advertising doesn't appear, then we'll certainly be made aware of it. The advertising, as you'll see in your kits, has been done on a regular basis.

MR. PARKER: How many years have we been doing it like this? Do we have any idea?

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's a guess, I have no idea.

MS. HODGSON: I don't know, but a number of years.

MR. HEBB: Less than 10, I would think.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to touch on one thing and that would be the advertising itself. I know, as a member of the subcommittee - I think Ms. Massey, myself and maybe Mr. Colwell were on that - we had gone through and met with folks from Communications Nova Scotia on a couple of occasions to try to design a new look, I guess, to it - for lack of a better word - and try to attract people.

I don't think there's anything stopping us from continuing to make those efforts and put those comments forward to whoever is doing the advertising, I guess. That doesn't take away, I guess, our ability to do that, does it? Jana, maybe you would know the answer to that better than I.

MS. HODGSON: Nothing would change, as far as that is concerned. It's just strictly placing the ad, collecting information from the departments, putting it all together and forwarding it to the right people. But from the committee's perspective, it's going to be - the committee still has the right to decide where they want to advertise and what they want to do. That's not going to change.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: Mr. Porter is correct. When I was on the committee we looked at this in detail, because the concern was that we weren't getting enough people applying for the positions and it was a real issue - not who applied but just the number of people applying.

[9:30 a.m.]

As long as the committee could still have some direction on where to advertise - we did a tremendous amount of work on that - it would make a lot more sense for the advertising to be done by Executive Council, because everything goes through them anyway: all of the recommendations come from them, all of the information goes to them from departments, and all of the resumés go to them. So as long as the committee can have some input on advertising, where the advertising is done, just strictly to try to get more people to apply, I think would be a positive move.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess my only concern is I don't know the history on why it was switched in the first place, so I have to question why it was switched from Executive Council to here, the control. I don't know if anybody knows that answer, but I guess my concern would be that as long as we're not losing control over what we want done, as far as advertising goes - because we have struggled. I've been on the committee since 2003 and the numbers aren't going up, as far as the amount of people applying for any of these positions. The number of women, it's pretty stagnant, even though we've tried to do a lot of changes with advertising. I think advertising has improved, the subcommittee and staff have been helpful in achieving that, but the numbers don't seem to have moved too much. So I guess, if we move it back to Executive Council . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Will it make a difference?

MS. MASSEY: I don't know.

MR. CHAIRMAN: From what I'm told - and I have no reason not to believe what I'm told by the Committees Office staff and all that - it will streamline, make it easier. And nothing else will change - whether or not it comes from the Executive Council or from the Human Resources Committee, I don't think it would make any difference, because nothing in the advertising itself is changing. Anyway, Mr. d'Entremont is next.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Well, I thought we could put a motion in and maybe do a vote on the motion. I would move that the advertising responsibility for agencies, boards and commissions be moved to Executive Council with input from our advertising subcommittee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

What are we dealing with next here, looking for a meeting? (Interruption)

You have in your kits the advertising, where the advertising is done, and you also have a summary - I'm sorry, you don't have that, I have that. Do they have a summary?

MS. HODGSON: No.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, you will soon. The records show that between October 25, 2008, and January 21, 2009, there were 192 applicants. Is that correct?

MS. HODGSON: For non-adjudicative, 150.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Non-adjudicative applicants were 150. I'm sorry, there were more than that - adjudicative was 155 so the total was 305. Of that, male applicants, there were 115 for adjudicative and 108 for non-adjudicative; female applicants, there were 40 adjudicative and 42 non-adjudicative applicants.

The applications do not - minority groups are not self-identifying on the applications, so those statistics are not available. If you could make a copy of that for everyone on the committee, please.

So the subcommittee on advertising, it would be a good idea if we had a meeting. Since the chairmen of the committee have changed over the year - I don't know is the subcommittee still the same? Mr. Colwell, you're not even on the committee.

MR. COLWELL: No, but the chairman of the committee is typically on the subcommittee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, it includes the chairman and, Mr. Porter, you had something to add to that?

MR. PORTER: It was myself, Joan and the chairman, which was Keith at the time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I see no reason to change that, as long as both Ms. Massey and Mr. Porter are volunteering to be on the subcommittee, that's great.

So perhaps we should meet before the next session and if you just leave that in my hands, I'll organize something that we can get together before the next committee meeting.

Okay, moving right along - can we deal with some future agenda items. I think you've been given a list of all the agenda items there, from all three caucuses. It's up to the committee, actually. I think you can also add to that the "gas and dash" issue that we added today. Our next meeting will be February 24^th. At that time we can have perhaps at least one presentation, no more than one. Any suggestions as to who it should be? Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: Well, we just recently talked here about this "gas and dash" issue. I think it's still quite relevant, as a health and safety issue, and I would suggest that might be as good a topic as any.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter - yes, okay. Well, that's agreed. We'll work toward contacting the witnesses, and so on, and lining them up for February 24^th. If we can't, can we have a backup?

MR. COLWELL: I'd suggest, Mr. Chairman, if I could, Apprenticeship Training and Skill Development Division of Labour and Workforce Development. I think it is a very timely topic with the economic conditions in the world the way they are today. With good trades training, that means the economy can move better.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Colwell. We'll put that down as a possible backup if we run into any problems. Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: I see that's on the Liberal caucus list there but I see also in the PC list the first one, Labour Management Agreement, Federal Provincial Transition of Funds and Programs. I wonder if there's a correlation there or a tie-together of those two topics. I'm just asking the question, I guess, if there's any correlation to have one or both of those together, or do they tie together?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know. Mr. Morse and then Ms. Massey.

MR. MORSE: This is something that has been evolving for years. I think there were other provinces that perhaps were in there before Nova Scotia. There are a couple of agreements that transferred monies to the provinces, in various incarnations. I tried to track this but I suspect that the committee, and I think the public, would be interested to understand just what has taken place, so I would concur with Charlie that it would be constructive.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: So just have Labour in?

MR. MORSE: Yes, have Labour come in and discuss the new workforce development component of the department, which goes back to those two agreements with the federal government.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey first, please.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The second one on our list is the Nova Scotia Community College. The reason behind that being there is we wanted to know what is happening with the skilled trades programs in Nova Scotia because we've heard that some programs are being dropped or are inaccessible, and what's going on without reaching the high schools and enrolment of women in those non-traditional things. I think all three of those sort of . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Fit together.

MS. MASSEY: . . . are talking about some of the same things, so I don't know how we can get the right witnesses in here and maybe kill three birds with one stone.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we can attempt to do that. Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: These are major issues and I don't think you can cover all three things at the one time. Trades training is something that the province, over time, over a long period of time, has decided that everyone should go to university and we're starting to see the effect now of that. The programs have been watered down so badly at the training session that when you hire somebody from the school - not that the school doesn't do a good job at what they're mandated to do - you've got to retrain the people when they come out, or train them completely, so they can be productive in the workplace.

I think it's a very serious thing and when you tie that together with the economy and what's happening in the economy, it's one of the things that is going to kill us, long term, not properly trained tradespeople. The agreements with the federal government are a very important part of that. I agree with that, there's not a problem. The work that the community colleges do is really tied into this as well.

I think you'd be better off having two meetings on these three topics and to really work them all over, because it's a lot of information here that's very relevant to our economy and to young people being trained properly in the proper services in the province and everything else. I think it would be more - all three topics are very important but I think a lot of emphasis should be put on this to really find out what's happening.

I'd like to see, if it was me, a couple of employers in here that hire people from these programs. I see on one of the lists here is the Dexter Training Program. They were here before when I was chair of the committee - a wonderful program they have, but if they have this program to train their people, it shows that the system - even though they work with the community college - is not working as well as it should be working, when a company has to train their own people again. So I think we should really somehow put these into two meetings rather than one.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. From an organizational viewpoint, I tend to agree. If perhaps the committee wants to spend the next two or three meetings concentrating on labour force, workforce, apprenticeship and Nova Scotia Community College, then we can aim for that. It would be a lot easier on the staff, as well, to line them up in that order and we can certainly do that. It's going to take months to get it all done and who knows, something may interrupt us in the process of doing that - I'm not sure what it would be. Mr. Porter and then Ms. Massey.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just going to say that it looks like we have ideas for February, March and April.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I agree with you, I think we've settled the whole thing right here. Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: I agree with you, as far as economic development, lack of trained workforce in Nova Scotia. The other two that are on our list right now, the reasons they are on there is Advanced Precision Machining, that's a fairly new, growing company and they have issues with the lack of skilled people that they need to work for them, so there are questions around what the Nova Scotia Community College is offering. Then Nurse Practitioner Program, why are we not designing programs to train and deploy these people to take the burden off the health care system? So all these things, I totally agree with you, so maybe we just have a theme going on here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we've got a clearer indication of what the committee wants, so we'll move in that direction. Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: But on February 24^th, it was "gas and dash" wasn't it?

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's correct.

MR. PARKER: Then the labour apprentice stuff after that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, correct. Okay, clear? Thank you.

Now, I think we've covered everything and we'll move back to what we had first on the agenda, with the motion that was tabled at the last meeting. I believe you have a copy of it in your . . .

MS. HODGSON: They don't have a copy of it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: They don't have a copy of it? Okay, I'll read it.

MS. MASSEY: I've got some spare ones.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Came prepared, great. For those who don't have it, the motion that was moved on November 25^th by Ms. Massey, the MLA for Dartmouth East:

The Human Resources Committee request that the Conservative Government report back to the committee, specifying what targets have been set in regard to diversity and equality for the government's agencies, boards and commissions.

The Human Resources Committee request that the Conservative Government seek the advice of organizations speaking for under-represented Nova Scotians about how to achieve equality, fairness and diversity within the membership of the government's agencies, boards and commissions, as well as within the current appointment process.

[9:45 a.m.]

Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, just more of a technical update on this one. We're talking about a Conservative Government in here. Well, if we were presenting this to Ottawa, then fine, we can say Conservative Government, but we're a Progressive Conservative Government. I just want to underline that issue. Thank you.

MS. MASSEY: Is that a friendly amendment?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it's probably about as friendly as you're going to get. (Laughter) Ms. Massey, do you have any . . .

MS. MASSEY: I can put that word in there, that's no problem. There you go, thank you for that.

MR. PARKER: There's a difference?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on this? I would take it that this would be done in terms of writing a letter. Ms. Massey, would you explain further?

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, we've been struggling on this committee, trying to deal with the issues of equality - equity and diversity - on the committee. So really trying to give sort of an open-ended invitation to the government that we have right now to educate us on what targets they've actually set to deal with those diversity and equality issues as they relate to the agencies, boards and commissions. So that really is the explanation for the first one. It's just trying to bring together what we've tried to deal with on this committee, anyway since I've been on it, since 2003.

The second part - and you could divide these into two motions if you wanted to - the second one is trying to find a way to have the government seek help from some of the processes that they already have underway. So, say, the Status of Women - I didn't want to design a motion that asked certain agencies to do that work. I wanted to leave the motions that it's up to the government to invite the membership of these other agencies, boards and commissions to help them with the process that we're trying to deal with, which is in regard to diversity and equality on the ABCs. I'm not sure if everybody is clear on what I'm trying to achieve.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I really don't have any problem with asking for suggestions from various organizations that might represent minority groups as to how they could enhance representation of their community on the ABCs. But I think it's important to make the point that there is an opportunity for any applicant to self-identify if they're from a minority group. My understanding is that overwhelmingly the situation is they choose not to self-identify which, of course, makes it impossible for members of the committee to take that into consideration, or the ministers making the recommendations to the committee.

So it's not that I'm averse to what you're trying to accomplish, but I think it should be recognized that there is that opportunity and that it appears that minority groups choose not to exercise that option.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure, is that part of the application, that opportunity to self-identify?

MR. MORSE: I'm going to refer this to Gordon, but my understanding is that there is that opportunity to self-identify and I know it is . . .

MR. HEBB: I don't have any expertise, but I seem to recall having seen that in advertisements for jobs. I don't know about the appointments process.

MR. MORSE: Or if it's not explicitly on the application forms, then maybe we should change the application forms to make it explicitly clear that candidates may want to self-identify.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me leave that in the hands of the subcommittee, okay? We'll take a look at the application and see whether or not it's part of the application and perhaps we can come up with a suggestion to make it part of the application.

Ms. Massey, you had indicated you wanted to say something.

MS. MASSEY: It's gone now, the thought.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's deal with these two motions. You said you're okay if we break them into two?

MS. MASSEY: Sure, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So can we deal with the first one, please, which is:

The Human Resources Committee request that the Progressive Conservative Government report back to the committee, specifying what targets have been set in regard to diversity and equality for the government's agencies, boards and commissions.

Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: That one is fairly straightforward. I think perhaps there already is a target set, I just don't know what it is. But is it 50-50 for gender equality or is it a certain percentage for diversity? We don't know, but I guess we're just trying to find out. So it seems like a straightforward motion to me, just to find out what the government's target is so that we would know. It's as simple as that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse, this would be directed to - who are we directing our correspondence to?

MR. MORSE: It's going to have to be the Executive Council, because they're the coordinating body.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Great, okay. Any further discussion on the motion? Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I believe that all ministers, all departments, are basically encouraged to consider diversity in the appointment process. I think what's possibly missing here is some sort of accountability measure or mechanism to see how the policy actually fulfills those goals. That seems like a reasonable motion and should be given consideration, in my opinion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The second one reads:

The Human Resources Committee request that the Progressive Conservative Government seek the advice of organizations speaking for under-represented Nova Scotians about how to achieve equality, fairness and diversity within the membership of the government's agencies, boards and commissions, as well as within the current appointment process.

Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I just wanted to, you know - a little more of a story that goes along with this is that one of my responsibilities, of course, is Minister of Acadian Affairs, and I have a committee there. That committee, actually, I have them tasked to go through agencies, boards and commissions, to see if there's adequate representation from the Acadian community, and I would hope that other groups do the same thing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: I think what I'm looking for here is more for the government to actually go out to the organizations that they already have and not just asking the question, how much diversity do you have now, but looking for their advice on how we can improve what we're already doing - the advice is the most important part of that motion. So however the government, or the Executive Council, wants to go about doing that, to really go out there and wholeheartedly seek advice that's going to help us on this committee achieve more equity and diversity.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Just a follow-up to that. What I have the committee do is actually go out to get the resumés from the people who they think should be on the boards. Sometimes there has to be a little bit of hand-holding here to get people interested in some of these things, to explain the importance of participating in these processes. So that's what I've done through our group, and I would think that other organizations, like the other committees or the other organizations that are in government, do the same thing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

I had an item there, Affirmative Action and Gender Equality Policies Review. I think you've all been given - or have they, Jana . . .

MS. HODGSON: Yes, they have that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . the Affirmative Action Policy. I'm not sure where we're going on that, to be truthful, so help me out, folks. Was it requested that we do a review of that - the Human Resources Committee? Where did that request come from?

MS. HODGSON: It came from the members, they wanted to discuss . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The members of this committee? All right, I must have missed a couple of meetings. Mr. Porter, what have you been doing? (Laughter)

I'm not sure where we're going. If anyone has any suggestions on this, please - Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: I looked it over and I'm perhaps going to make the suggestion that we wait for Mr. Paris who was not able to be here today, but I know he has a deep interest in this topic and it may be appropriate to just let us review it for a month and then perhaps look at it the next time around.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a fine suggestion, Mr. Parker. We'll do exactly that, thank you very much - if the committee agrees.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So your next meeting is February 24^th. I think we've dealt with everything, haven't we? (Interruption)

Oh sorry, the briefing packages. The proposal is to have one paper copy go to each of the following: caucus researchers, the Legislative Library and the committee clerk; and then electronic briefing packages will be sent to all members and researchers, if that's fine with everyone. There will be no change to the paper copy for the agencies, boards and commissions - that will go to the committee members as well.

Are we saving paper? Very resourceful. Any further discussion on any items that you may have?

February 24^th - the first part of the meeting we'll deal with the agencies, boards and commissions, and then immediately following - depending on how many appointments there are and how much discussion there is on them - we should be able to give at least an hour or an hour and a half, so we can (Interruption) Yes.

Okay, thanks very much. The meeting is adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 9:57 a.m.]