HANSARD

and

Black Cultural Centre for Nova Scotia

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. David Wilson, Glace Bay (Chairman)

Hon. David Morse

Hon. Christopher d'Entremont

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Percy Paris

Mr. Michel Samson

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Mr. Michel Samson was replaced by Mr. Keith Colwell.]

In Attendance:

Ms. Jana Hodgson

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

WITNESSES

Black Cultural Centre for Nova Scotia

Dr. Leslie Oliver, President

Dr. Henry Bishop, Chief Curator

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2008

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's call the meeting to order, please. The presenters today are Dr. Oliver and Dr. Bishop from the Black Cultural Centre for Nova Scotia but we're going to do a little bit of business first, gentlemen, if you'll just bear with us and watch how this great thing called democracy actually works.

To start on your agendas this morning, we're going to start with our appointments to the agencies, boards and commissions so you have your list in front of you, I do believe. (Interruption) We can do that, yes - do you want to do that now? We can introduce ourselves, starting with Mr. Porter, please.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now we'll start, please. Then we have some correspondence to deal with later on in the meeting but we also have an issue of a policy, the Affirmative Action Policy. Let me deal with that first of all. You'll find that in front of you, you have the actual policy there. This was a request that was made at the last meeting. We've been given this information by counsel, as well as a copy of Hansard dealing with a similar issue, was it not, back when, Gordon?

MR. GORDON HEBB: I'm not sure of the - I think it's December 12^th. Excuse me, Mr. Ferguson was here on my behalf last time and he did the research and unfortunately he's not available today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The research is there so can we, if it's okay by the committee, just leave it to the members to review until the next meeting and we'll put it on the agenda again. Is it agreed? Agreed.

MR. HEBB: If I might just add, as I understand, the transcript will, I think, cover pretty much all of the questions that I believe were asked at that last meeting.

MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, we'll leave that until the next meeting.

Okay, agencies, boards and commissions. The first one on the agenda is the Department of Finance, Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission. It's an appointment which was deferred at the last meeting. Do I have someone to nominate?

HON. DAVID MORSE: We just got the letter passed out in response to the minister's inquiry and I . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, is it here? This was a letter that just came to my attention this morning so I've just had the clerk copy it and distribute it to you. It's a letter from the Finance Minister who we wrote to regarding the appointment. Would you like a minute to review?

Are there any questions concerning the correspondence? Can I have a motion, please, regarding the appointment of Brian Butler to the Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I so move that Brian Butler be appointed as a member of the Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission, now that the minister has responded to our questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Ms. Massey.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: I would like to say that we'll be voting against this application based on some facts that the letter we just received this morning says that there were 11 qualified applicants, which means that the two females who applied were qualified. Also, looking at the cover sheet for the qualifications for this appointment, it does say actually that the person should have a professional designation or a master's or a legal education, and then they list the different places, accounting, business, engineering or public administration. I don't believe, looking at the application, that this person does have those qualifications.

Part of the CV actually is cut off at the top part . . .

MR. KEITH COLWELL: Mr. Chairman, if we're going to discuss anything about an individual's application we have to go in camera.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We do. Thank you, Mr. Colwell. Do you wish to further discuss it, Ms. Massey?

MS. MASSEY: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. I'd ask then, please, if we could just go in camera for a few minutes to discuss this issue.

[9:10 a.m. The committee moved in camera.]

[9:20 a.m. The public session reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, the Department of Community Services, Tri-County Housing Authority. Mr. d'Entremont.

HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I so move the appointment of Theresa Dalton as a board member of the Tri-County Housing Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: I have absolutely no problem with the appointment. Unfortunately, I'm filling in and I don't have a book and I was just wondering how many other people applied for the job.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm trying to find it, Mr. Colwell. Jana, take over. One.

MR. COLWELL: The reason I asked that is because I understand there was another individual who had applied as well and I wonder why this - I say no problem with the person who is going to be appointed but I understand that there was more than one person who applied for this position and it doesn't show up here. So I don't know how we address that. Maybe we could request the information, that the minister maybe clarify exactly how many people applied for the position.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It should say in your book, it usually does.

MS. MASSEY: It says one.

MR. COLWELL: But my understanding is there's more than one person who did apply.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we'll write the minister and find out. In the meantime, is there any further discussion on the appointment?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Nova Scotia Association of Social Workers Board of Examiners, one member. Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: I so move Colin Campbell as a member of the Nova Scotia Association of Social Workers Board of Examiners.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Education, Colchester-East Hants Regional Library Board. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I so move that Rob Landry be appointed a member of the Colchester-East Hants Regional Library Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The South Shore Regional Library Board. Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, I so move that Shelley Zwicker become a member of the South Shore Regional Library Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Finance, Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, there are three appointments. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: I so move Frank Elliott, Rachel Martin and Paula Minnikin as directors of the Department of Finance, Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I should be absenting myself from the next appointments, but I would like to make the comment that it is difficult to get qualified volunteers for some agencies, boards and commissions. As great a commission as the Shubenacadie Canal Commission might be, it's still something that has been difficult for them and they do have vacancies. I hope that the committee would give favourable consideration.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Morse.

The Department of Natural Resources, Shubenacadie Canal Commission, two appointments for commissioners. Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, I so move John F. O'Connor and Iain C. Taylor as commissioners of the Shubenacadie Canal Commission.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to elaborate on what Mr. Morse was trying to say. There are seven men on that board, so just to point that out. I don't know what we can do to get some women on there, but anyway, just keep on trying.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Massey, point well taken. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I would encourage all members of this committee to encourage qualified applicants to put their names forward. I can tell you that the minister would be very pleased to hear of those recommendations.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Well, I'd just like to make a final comment that as we saw this morning, there's a bit of confusion even around what qualified means, that we spent a lot of time on, I think, at the last meeting, so I won't go into it at this meeting because we do have guests today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you very much, I appreciate that.

Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, the Nova Scotia Real Estate Commission, the appointment of one board member. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: I so move that Avis Chapman become a board member of the Real Estate Commission of Nova Scotia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Gentlemen, please. Sorry to keep you waiting, step forward. Democracy is a slow process but if you have anything better, we'd love to hear about it. (Laughter) For the record, please, if you would introduce yourselves - I think we've all introduced ourselves - and then you can start with your presentation.

DR. LESLIE OLIVER: Good morning, I'm Dr. Leslie Oliver, president of the Black Cultural Society of Nova Scotia.

DR. HENRY BISHOP: Good morning, I'm Dr. Henry Bishop, chief curator of the Black Cultural Centre for Nova Scotia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for coming here this morning and we look forward to your presentation.

DR. OLIVER: Mr. Chairman, we very much appreciate this opportunity to address legislators and we hope that we can give you what you were looking for and then we'll find out more about your questions.

First of all I will say that the third person who was going to be with us, Russell Grosse, our facilities operator - representing the state that we're in right now for staffing, one staff member had an emergency, although he's the building facilities person, he has to run the place. In fact, with the three of us here, the receptionist would have been running the building, so that's where we are.

The founders of the Black Cultural Centre were the members of the Black Cultural Society 25 years ago. I just point out that we recognized our founders back in June of this year and noted that amongst them is an Order of Nova Scotia holder, an Order of Canada holder, there are people whose names you've probably seen here as they were applying for agencies, boards and commissions. Actually, one of the founders is back on the board 25 years later as an active board member, these people are still active. Unfortunately, one of the people pictured on this slide, Mr. Arnold Johnson, passed away about a month ago, he was a former city councillor. So these were accomplished people who knew their civic duty and answered the questions: should we have, why should we have, why do we have a Black Cultural Centre? The answer was to preserve, protect and promote the Black culture in Nova Scotia.

However, I came across these words, "A wise nation preserves its records, gathers up its muniments . . ." - not a typo - ". . . decorates the tombs of its illustrious dead, repairs its great public structures and fosters national pride and love of country, by perpetual reference to the sacrifices and glories of the past." Preserve, protect and promote - that's why the centre exists and who said that? Joseph Howe. On October 12, 1984, the Premier of Nova Scotia unveiled a stone where these words are carved in granite, so this is very much what the province has asked us to do and we're doing it - for one portion of the population. Since 1983, we've been sharing the pride in our African Nova Scotian heritage, in fact, talking about our heroes, doing the protection, the promotion and the preservation of that heritage.

What we have at the centre, of course, we have artifacts as in a museum, we have photographs as in a museum, we have text material, things to read, we have memorabilia, so things to jog the memory and remind people of what happened. Part of it is proof of social contribution. We like our youth to know that the people who came before them participated in the founding of this country, so we talk about people who were here pre-Confederation, who helped in the building of the society, people who served in the military, people who served in government, people who served in many ways and are the builders of the community.

[9:30 a.m.]

We have intellectual property, some of which we can represent as material that's publishable, that we can sell in our gift shop or in our bookstore. We have a research library that is used by people conducting research on African Nova Scotia history, so we have those things. We have local interests, whether it's fire department, local war service, or other things, because it's part of education and we all know that education goes on, education does not stop. Your work may be finished someday, you get pensioned off from work, but your education keeps going. Alexandre Dumas - why do I quote Alexandre Dumas? Also a man with African heritage and we point out things like this to people at the centre, so for the young people it's good to know that.

We focus not only on local ideas but global ideas, the fact that African Nova Scotians are not descended from slaves, we're descended from kings, in the same way that everyone else is. The Scots were descended from kings, the Irish, the British - right? We were descended from kings - slavery was something on the path. Gandhi, King, Ikeda, peace - there are many larger issues that are addressed and, again, it's part of the socialization of people.

Who visits the centre? We do have lots of local visitors. We have individual visitors to the museum and to the site. We have school groups who come in by the busload. Dr. Bishop does about 50 school tours a year - he does a serious number of school bus tours. There are events and special programs that bring attendees to the building and to the programs.

Former locals, folks who are now living elsewhere, they come back but they don't come back alone. They will bring their friends, their children and their grandchildren and it gives them some connection to Nova Scotia and reaffirms that connection. It's so easy for grandchildren of former Nova Scotians to say, oh I think I had relatives somewhere in the East - this way, they know who those relatives were and how it happened. We get visitors from across the country who are interested in what's going on here. We get U.S. visitors, cruise ship passengers who show up and are forever amazed at what they find here. They didn't know that they we were here, they didn't know that we were connected to them, they didn't know that they had this other reason for taking a visit to Nova Scotia.

There is a lot of international education that takes place in this province. At St. F.X., the Coady Institute, they will bring their students up to the centre so that they get a firsthand, live introduction to who are the African Nova Scotians. It's a very quick and efficient piece of education rather than spending several days sitting in a classroom listening to it. I might add that it's of some comfort to us that the Coady Institute will take the effort of bringing the students to the centre because the cost of taking the centre to the students would fall on our budget and that's something I will address in a moment, the budgetary issue.

The Mount - we're delighted to work with the Mount, with their student teachers. Before their student teachers get any other activity this year, in September, they were out at the Black Cultural Centre finding out what it's like to be teaching in a program where you might have African Nova Scotian and African-Canadian students in your classroom. James Baldwin said, "A child cannot be taught by someone who despises him." For those of you who find that a little sharp and a little negative, it's best to be taught by somebody who appreciates and understands who you are.

Cruise ship visitors - this was a day we had actually two tours, simultaneously, we had 80 visitors from cruise ships. These are not only on occasion - when Dr. Bishop asks them, how many of you have been to Nova Scotia before, there will be one or two who have been to Nova Scotia before and inevitably they will say, yes and I was here at the centre

before and I just had to come back and bring my family, so there's a lot of that. There are other people who will say, no, I haven't been here but my uncle was here and my uncle said we had to get here and see this place. So, they do these tours that are two or three days, five days, a week out of New York and come up to Nova Scotia and they will do a visit to the centre.

We've had visitors from Australia, Africa, Nova Scotia, across the country, throughout the U.S. - more states than I actually have listed here - and around the world. We do meet the world at the centre and the world meets us at the centre.

The value of the centre has been established over 25 years, so it's a place where we have some programs like the monument down at the Pictou waterfront. That is a site where we can hold an annual recognition of the Black Battalion. We receive the world at the centre, visitors. The centre is a site when there's something special that needs to happen and it's of significance to the African Nova Scotian community, the centre can host it. It's a place where we can have our celebrations and yes, we can even bring these three together.

The centre then, 25 years, and the value of the centre - this chart goes back to 1990 - in 1990, the centre was funded at $260,000. At the time it was probably coming out of Education or Tourism - we've bounced around a bit, we're currently funded out of Heritage - but that $260,000 in 1990 today would represent, using my figures, for the consumer price index, 1990 to 2008, it represents some $382,000. So our value - in 1990 we had a perceived value in today's dollars of $382,000. What we received today, $190,000, which I see as a shortfall of $192,000, so that's a reduction. Our value to the province is down by more than 50 per cent; I need to understand why.

The impact of this reduced funding value means staff cuts. We have no manager. We have a chief curator, we have a person who is looking after the building, and we have a reception and clerical person. So what do we do? Everybody does everything; some people fill in for each other. Raises? The last raises were 10 years ago?

DR. BISHOP: Yes, approximately.

DR. OLIVER: Creativity. The creative programs that cost money, that require real cash - reduced. Why reduced? Perhaps because there's no program person, so there's no one to do the creative work, or perhaps because the curator is busy running tours or busy drumming up funding or busy meeting the donors.

We have trouble running province-wide programs. The Black Cultural Society is a province-wide organization. Our board is drawn from throughout the province. For us to have a board meeting, let's say first of all at the centre, and we're bringing people from Sydney, from Glace Bay, from Amherst, from Shelburne, from the Valley, from Digby - from around the province - well, you know what the cost is of that sort of thing. These are

volunteers and we currently have them, the people who are paying mileage, we reimburse them at 20 cents per kilometre, yes.

What else do we do? We make do with inefficient technology. Walk into our museum and now it's starting to get dated. The level of technology is so low and it's just like many organizations, technology has to be low on your list.

Volunteers get tired; if you can't pay their mileage properly, you can't fully pay their accommodation, you ask them to stay with a family member if they're visiting, if they're here for a meeting, and then you ask them not only just to do the sort of things that you would expect a volunteer to do, you ask them to actually jump in and carry the load, volunteers get tired. Those of you - and I'm sure there are many - who have worked with other voluntary organizations, know how difficult it is to maintain a volunteer workforce.

We have a building to maintain and one of my nightmares is that this building will trump productivity. What do I mean? We've got to pay the electricity bill, we have to pay for the oil, we have to do the maintenance on the building, there are stains on the bricks so that has to be scrubbed. So looking after the building suddenly takes up your budget and there goes all of your other issues. It also takes away the time of your curator and of your program people.

So what do we attempt to do? The budget that we're looking at, where we have $190,000 that is our operating funds and very much needed, our other sources of revenue that we project - $17,000 from donations - but raising donations takes staff time. Fundraising takes serious staff time and volunteer time and there are expenses that just on a cash-flow basis you have trouble with - revenue from our sales of various products that we have, to the visitors. So we'll see how we do with this, that's our target. Fundraising and revenue programs and the donor relations do all involve staff and material expenses.

So we set targets for the short-term stability. Private and public funding, province-wide programs, we must be province-wide. The folks in Digby were very much part of the program but it's hard for us to reach to all parts of the province - maybe if we had stable status as a museum, officially. We need to perhaps shore up some of our tourism partnerships because I know that there are elements of the African-American tourism market that are not subject to the same pressures as all of the others. So when other parts of the industry are down, that part could, in fact, be up. I mean, African-Americans are looking for friendly places to visit and, in fact, when then look at a place they look at it and say, are they really going to be friendly to us there? So there are things that we can do there but we do need to have a stable set of partnerships.

Education partnerships. A lot of our work is education-related but we need to have some education partnerships and immigrant settlement. When I talked about pre-Confederation settlement of Blacks in Nova Scotia that's one thing, but our history that we

present at the centre really stops at about 75 years ago with the folks who came from the Caribbean to Cape Breton. Now we know that over the last 75 years there has been a whole new influx of new African Nova Scotians. Their story and their relationship to the province need to be solidified, so immigrant settlement, and there are things that we can do.

Now these are all potential sourcing of funding sources but they do all take a lot of work. Building any of these partnerships and relationships requires time. We do have a vision for the next 25 years that the organizational structure will be somewhat revised. It is a 25-year-old organization, no one's rules stay the same, or structure stays the same for 25 years. Financial stability will be looked at in a different way over the next 25 years but our vision expands. It's not just what does it mean to people in the Preston area, what does it mean to people in the HRM area, what does it mean to people in Nova Scotia? It's what does it mean to the world and we tell a story here that we are unique, we are the only ones in the world who can tell the story of why there are so many people of African heritage here in Nova Scotia. We've got the whole story there and we can tell it very efficiently. An hour in our place and they know that story.

[9:45 a.m.]

We need appropriate space for performances, exhibits and cultural activity. That was on the drawing boards when the society started but it was never achieved. So there's that next step, that's a serious step, that's the big step. But to get to that step, even to do the planning for that step, we need to get the funding restored and, of course, evolve use of new technology - and I say that because I've just spent my whole career as a computer science professor. We have to look after our technologies but, in fact, youth are looking for technology, they're looking for some signal that the centre has relevance to them. I might say that there are signals that we've been giving for youth. We recently did a partnership with the African Nova Scotian Music Association and various other types of partnerships that we're doing with organizations that have skills.

On that note, I will say this is our building. Many of you, if not all of you, have been there. If you haven't been there recently, please do come and visit.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Dr. Oliver. I know we have some questions from the committee members so I'm making a list and checking it twice. Mr. Porter, Mr. Paris, Mr. Colwell.

MR. PORTER: . . . and we have something called the West Hants African Resource Centre in my area and I work very closely with Vince and his group there and some great stuff goes on there by way of assisting many folks from the Black community and others - not just the Black community but others. Great relationships have been built there.

Just a couple of quick questions, one on the budget. You showed a breakdown of that pie chart, Dr. Oliver, with donations, fundraising. Are those estimated or are those things that you've taken over the course of years and done an average of?

DR. OLIVER: Those are estimates and wishes. That's what we wanted to achieve this year and probably is more aggressive than it had been in the past. I've been president for about the last 10 months and so in that time, was just in time for this budget cycle, to put that budget in. It's an aggressive . . .

MR. PORTER: So just to meet your total target, then if what you say is an aggressive budget, you're shooting for the $262,000 to carry you through the next 12-month budget year.

DR. OLIVER: To carry us through to the end of March.

MR. PORTER: To the end of March 2009?

DR. OLIVER: Yes.

MR. PORTER: Thanks very much, I appreciate you being here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris.

MR. PERCY PARIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all I think I want to, I guess, personally pass on to Dr. Oliver and Dr. Bishop sincere congratulations, not only to you, as individuals, but all those individuals past and present who have volunteered and worked so diligently at maintaining the centre and trying to maintain the status over the years, and so congratulations. I think that should be acknowledged first.

I've got a number of questions and I don't know if you've got me on a timeline, Mr. Chairman, or not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Absolutely not, Mr. Paris, the floor is yours.

MR. PARIS: When I look at your presentation and it's my interpretation that when you looked at the funding - and correct me if I'm right or wrong - but your funding has stayed at the same level since almost day one. There has been no increase, is that correct?

DR. OLIVER: That's correct.

MR. PARIS: And over that period of time the funding has come from various sectors of the government departments. I think one could make an argument that if taken into - and I think you're putting forth the case that if - and I'm going to put it in my own words - that

one could easily make the argument that if funding remains the same over a period of X number of years and taking into consideration inflation and all that's associated with it, I mean my interpretation is that one could easily make the argument that it's considered as a cut, as a funding cut.

So is it every year a prerequisite that you have to write to a department and look to maintain the funding and when you do that, do you ask for more and the amount that you ask for, is it an amount that exceeds the expectation of a few thousand or is it looking toward the future? What is the amount that is asked for when you do write to the government?

DR. OLIVER: As I said, I've been president for less than one year but perhaps, Dr. Bishop.

DR. BISHOP: There's usually a buffer zone that we want to put into the budget and we usually ask for anywhere from $50,000 to $75,000 extra, knowing that the case probably would be that we wouldn't get near that but we don't want to be less than we were the previous year.

MR. PARIS: Has the facility itself - now it has been there - you just celebrated 25 years, had a 25^th Anniversary, have the things outgrown the facility itself? Is there a need now for the facility to be larger, for more things to be added and not only those things that you mentioned, but in the spirit of space.

DR. BISHOP: Not only space, there's also the aspect of the security of the centre, the integrity of the building. We've recently had some issues with an elevator that is well over its lifespan and we almost lost our artifact collection. There's also the factor of the look, the appearance; things are starting to fall and crack and we're breaking down over the year, period. So all that is part of the overall picture. Do we need expansion? Yes. We need some more facility uses.

MR. PARIS: Is there anywhere any sort of documentation by the centre for what the future will look like? I mean something like a business plan, with projections and what you envision that the centre should look like and what it may look like in years to come.

DR. OLIVER: What I will say about that, my proposal for this current funding year, the one year that we're in, included some $50,000 so that we could do that. So once you get cut back to the $190,000, then again it's, can you keep the building open? So there are strategic plans that have been done but the map, the vision for the next 25 years, the space requirements, how we are going to accommodate those who've arrived in the last 100 years, how we're going to include their story, how we're going to - over 25 years we have our current collection, many artifacts that are on display, whereas now the tendency with museums is you have a representative artifact on display but then you tell the story. So yes, there's space . . .

MR. PARIS: I'm a little - I don't know if the word is "confused" or not, because even when sitting as a member of this committee and how we grapple every month, I think, around the areas of diversity - or maybe sometimes the lack of - and when I hear that Mount Saint Vincent University, which has the education program, has seen in their wisdom to utilize the centre to help educate those of our population who are going to be teachers so that they can be more experienced working with diversity, can you give me some insight as to when you make that pitch to government, why hasn't the end result been more productive?

DR. OLIVER: It would be somewhat difficult and disingenuous for me to give a direct answer to that, in the sense that I'm not the one who has made the pitch before, but my impression is that it just wasn't quite as important as some other things. Yet when I talk to people directly, who are involved in heritage or involved in museums, they seem to have some understanding that there are stories that are best told through an organization like the society and at the centre.

DR. BISHOP: Could I just add, too, that there's an impression that the centre caters to Black people only. Over the years that I have been there, which is 25 years, the majority of people who come there are not Black. They are interested to know about the culture that has been left out of the history books that they read in their school or in the university or in their lifestyle.

So again, from Dr. Oliver's perspective, it is very correct that there's a value lacking of the importance of why the centre exists. The vision of the founders, including white and Black people, saw that this place should be the beacon of inclusion of a culture that's been denied.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris, one more.

MR. PARIS: I was just recently in Philadelphia and I was joined by my very well-known colleague here, Diana Whalen. One of the things, in one of our jaunts, in one of our visits around, I came across a group of tourists who were of African descent, who were from South Carolina, who had been in Nova Scotia on a cruise. Some statistics reveal now that with the growing population in the United States of America of people of African descent and that middle class or that upper middle class growing and growing, there are some people where the lightbulb has come on and said oh, this could be - this is a potential tourist who would come to Nova Scotia or other parts of the world.

So I guess in your work with the Department of Tourism, what does that partnership look like and are you advertising things like the Black Cultural Centre south of the border so that - you mentioned that you entertained two groups from a cruise ship and I would think that cruise ships are coming here this time of year all the time. So is this a common occurrence that you entertain the cruise ships, and what sort of marketing are you doing? Is the marketing in partnership with the Department of Tourism?

DR. BISHOP: I want to back up just a little bit, Mr. Paris, because the cruise-ship industry has not been kind to the Black Cultural Centre. We had to almost threaten some of the ships' passengers to make them feel that they had an obligation to go tell the pursers on the ships that they want a Black cultural experience onshore. This happened 10 years ago, approximately, that Carnival Cruises said, well, there is no money in the Black culture. They actually told us that on a visit and we told the passengers to go back and tell them yes, there is money and do you want to do this for the right reasons? They did so and approximately a month later, a big bus pulls up with Black people and white people and Asian people and other cultures on it, interested in this particular field.

So the other cruise lines have denied us flatly, we approached all of them. Yet there are Black people on the ship, as well as others who are interested in this particular field of study, so we do appeal. Again, financially, we can't afford to put the big ads and do all of the trips across the border and do all the trade shows. We do our best to get membership with TIANS - Tourism Nova Scotia now - and we also are part of various booklets, Doers & Dreamers, and various tour guides, and the bureaus around the province are also very supportive of us.

However, again it's not taken serious enough. A lot of people have come to us and said, you're really not credible, are you really giving accurate information? Are you really doing this to educate our people in the facts? So there's this lack of validity or authenticity of what we do. I think that's part and parcel of how we've been treated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, thank you very much, both of you, for coming today. First I want to state that I'm extremely impressed with the work that the Black Cultural Centre does for Nova Scotia, not just in my community but for all Nova Scotia. With the very limited resources that you have to work with, I don't know how you do what you do, quite frankly. I think if government operated as lean and as efficiently as you do, we would have a lot of surplus, then we could put the money into the Black Cultural Centre and really make it worthwhile.

I've got a few very direct questions and want very direct answers, if I could, please. You indicated that in 1990, you had $260,000 worth of funding. Was that 100 per cent from the Province of Nova Scotia at that time?

DR. OLIVER: Yes.

MR. COLWELL: It was?

[10:00 a.m.]

DR. OLIVER: I believe it was. The $260,000 was - it wasn't 100 per cent of our revenue.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, but in 1990, the $260,000 was the funding received from the Province of Nova Scotia at that time.

I agree with your 2008 estimate of $382,000, it may even be a little bit low. Over the past 18 years, things have gone up in cost tremendously. So today you feel - and I agree with you - that the province should be funding the Black Cultural Centre. If it's going to equal the 1990 numbers, we should be at around $382,000 to $385,000 from the province.

DR. OLIVER: That's correct. That's the money I would need to start looking at how to project ourselves into the next 25 years and how to get the programs doing what they should be doing.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, so you really are working from a provincial shortfall of $192,000 - I'd say probably more like $195,000 a year of funding. Would you say that's correct?

DR. OLIVER: That's the shortfall.

MR. COLWELL: This is something I've never asked the board or anyone. I'm surprised at how you get board members to come to a meeting, paying them 20 cents a kilometre. I do understand how people who come to the board meetings will stay with people in the community because they couldn't be treated any better anywhere, anywhere they go, so I can understand that part of it. But it's got to be very difficult for people, some of your board members are retired, with retirement income, which makes it very difficult for them to do the excellent job they do and I want to commend them for the work they do, as I do the staff. It's incredible.

I think there are two major issues for the centre. Number one is proper funding for today so that you can do the things you have to do to bring the facility back up to where it was in 1990. You already talked about that infrastructure, your displays and other things that the centre has to do and has been doing quite well, considering the lack of staff you have and the lack of resources you've had. I agree with your long-term goal that it really does need to grow, your facility has to grow. I know you have many artifacts that you can't display and a lot of issues that need to be addressed.

I also know that after working in the community and growing up in the community, in Westphal, with many people in the Black community, when I was growing up I didn't realize, quite frankly, as I'm sure most of the white community didn't realize, what the Black

community was going through even at that time. I recall the community talking in 1975 about taking the school board and the Province of Nova Scotia to court in a class action suit so that the young children in the Preston area could go to school - now that's in our recent history. It's disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful that had to happen. That situation has created problems in the community.

I think if you go way back through history, as you've done with the centre, it's important to preserve the struggle that the community has had over the years and the triumphs that the community has had. You showed William Hall, and probably most Nova Scotians don't realize he's the first Canadian to receive the Victoria Cross in this country - a Black man. So the accomplishments from the Black community are incredible.

I'm really going to get back to your funding again, that really concerns me. I visit the facility, I know that with what you've got to work with, you've done an excellent job, but without more funding you're going to be in big trouble very shortly. I know that I've met with Henry many times and with board members and with yourself, Dr. Oliver, to talk about this issue. How serious is this funding shortfall, in reality? If you don't get this corrected shortly, what will happen to the centre?

DR. OLIVER: Well, what I would say is that when I retired from the university, I was prepared to stay retired. Then I got wind of what the status was at the centre, what the funding level was, and I said I cannot step back from this. I must step forward because as far as I could see, the centre was going to disappear, it was in danger of disappearing.

The resources that the business - when I say that the building maintenance will trump productivity, essentially what I'm saying is that the staff has done an amazing job at keeping the building looking good, but it's a 25-year-old building with 25-year-old infrastructure. So if you don't have new programs, then you don't get members - your membership drops, your visitor-ship drops, you don't have someone to stand down at the wharf and greet the visitors from the cruise ships, you don't have money to prepare your brochures. So I really do see the place eroding and going back into nothing.

The great thing I saw about the centre was that 25 years ago, it was created out of nothing. There was no one telling the story of the African Nova Scotians and as perhaps some at the table can attest - at the time that I was a child, the Acadians were loathe to use a French pronunciation of their names. The name would be Guy, not Guy. Since then, they've managed to promote that pride of person and sense of community. First Nations people, the same way. I mean it's a question of building the pride of community so that you've got citizens who are healthy citizens. That's basically what we're talking about, is healthy citizens.

So the answer to your question is, I see the place disappearing unless some drastic things take place. One of the drastic things I see taking place - as I had on one of the slides - is stable public and private funding. So the private funding is an important part of going forward but it's got to be something that's stabilized, so the foundation or something of that nature. So yes, I do see it as extremely serious and to the point that even cash flow is a serious issue - paying for oil, just paying the bills and meeting payroll. So yes, everything is a serious issue.

MR. COLWELL: You talk about private funding, and I agree, but the trouble with private funding is you have to have the resources to go look for it, and not only to look for it but you have to lobby the people, because typically the people with private funding are lobbied by everybody to get private funding. If you don't have the resources to travel some, meet with the people, discuss the values of the centre and probably if you could even get some of the people from the U.S. who would support - there are very wealthy individuals in the U.S. who might support the centre, or other parts of Canada, where this is the only place in our country - that's correct? - so this is . . .

DR. OLIVER: Of its kind, which makes this the only place in the world, because nobody else tells this story. There's no one else in the world telling this story.

MR. COLWELL: And that's very important, very important.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell, one last comment or question, please.

MR. COLWELL: Okay, thank you. So when you put this all together - and I've seen the work and I've seen this brochure. Maybe Henry can describe to us where that came from - this is a very professional brochure - and what this would have cost the centre and how you arrived at this brochure.

DR. BISHOP: Okay. Well, two years ago - for those of you who don't know, I am an alumnus of the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design. Two years ago, the four-year students, under my former professor, wanted a project to get their final degree and I suggested that they do a portfolio on the Black Cultural Centre. Lo and behold, one of the students from Korea, who had not been acquainted with the Black culture, came up with an idea to do this particular brochure. This brochure has an award-winning design and she got honours as a result of it. It's based on a concept of looking at things from the inside out - in other words, you look at culture as a living, breathing entity.

The brochure entices you to see that we have a lot more to learn. So it gives you what they call a smorgasbord or buffet-style of culture and you want to get more of these appetizers, you want to find out more. We've been able to do this because this would have cost us anywhere from $15,000 to $20,000 to get a graphic designer or a professional visual communications company to do this, and they did it for zero. It was a class project where,

at the end of the four years, they came to the centre and there were about 30 students who sat around and they showed all their portfolios and different designs, and that's the one that was the best.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I could have sworn I was in an Acadian meeting, as well, because you know I've heard some of the very same presentations from various organizations around our province.

I have a couple of quick questions in and around the funding issue as well. In the Acadian culture, in the Heritage package that we're able to draw funds from, not only do we get money from the province but we also get money from the federal government on normally a matching basis. Has that been an opportunity for you in the past? Is there an envelope of dollars for visible minorities in federal government funding?

DR. BISHOP: Just to make it clear, in the past we used to have programming funding at the federal level. That's changed, it's only project funding and so every year you had to do something different and reapply. So it became a real problematic area for us to do that, and consequently we didn't get as much as we usually had in the past.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: What I find we're doing more of these days, what we've found in all our designated francophone communities, is we're finding school community centres that have a theatre, maybe some display space - not quite to the size of what the Black Cultural Centre is but there has been some funding from the federal government for that. So I'm wondering, maybe there's an opportunity, through the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs, to maybe pursue that on your behalf because I think that's a good opportunity there.

A lot of what I'm seeing now - just to change gears a little bit - on the immigration front, a lot of the Black Nova Scotians, or those of African descent, who are receiving that are francophones. I'm wondering if there has been some kind of partnership, maybe through my office, that we could - because I'm also sitting as Minister of Acadian Affairs here. There's an opportunity for some translation services, those kinds of things that might aid you in telling the story better, especially to those new Nova Scotians who are coming and have a basic language barrier as well.

My final comment quickly on it is, the Acadian Federation this year is celebrating their 40^th Anniversary. It has taken them 40 years to get to the point that they are more integrated into the Nova Scotian community. It wasn't so long ago - let's go back 30 years - that you would find signs asking for employment and French do not apply - you know, that wasn't that long ago. Sure, we're not a visible minority, but a language minority nonetheless with a different culture. We've gone a long way, but it has taken 40 years.

It wasn't until 2004 that we actually had our World Acadian Congress, which did create a lot of pride in the different communities and showed an acceptance from the other communities in Nova Scotia, to us being a founder, just like you are. I don't know if there are opportunities there to have, I don't know, a congress - I don't know how you would do it. How do you get all of our African Nova Scotian communities together and get cousins, friends and all of those people together to celebrate? I think that's one of the things that we need to continue to work on.

But ultimately, those are my offers and ideas around extra funding as well, without thinking about talking to our Department of Heritage. I know I'll go back and talk to our minister and I know David will as well, to see if there's an opportunity for some extra funding there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont. Mr. Parker.

MR. CHARLES PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I was a little late coming in so, for the record, I'm Charlie Parker, MLA for Pictou West. I must say I want to comment on our annual service that we have in Pictou every year - the Black Battalion, the No. 2 Construction Battalion there. It's always well attended, always a great project for Pictou County. I've had the opportunity to attend with my colleague, Percy Paris, the last couple of years. This year I think there was an extra-large crowd, partly funded by Democracy 250, but it was great to see and as always, an asset certainly to the Black community and to Pictou Country overall.

[10:15 a.m.]

I want to come around to your funding, I guess, as well and my colleague here just asked about the federal funding and a couple of other options. Is there any money available from the municipality, like from HRM? Have you ever pursued that? Is there any . . .

DR. BISHOP: We have. Again, projects were done on a smaller scale.

MR. PARKER: Is there potential there, perhaps, to look at it again or is there any ongoing program that they might have to continue to look at funding there?

DR. BISHOP: I'm sure it's something we could explore.

DR. OLIVER: But probably not operating. If we can get something from them, landscaping or things of that nature. On the other hand, we are a province-wide organization so we do get contributions from municipalities elsewhere in the province, too, but not at the level of real operating support.

MR. PARKER: Small amounts, basically. What about foundations? I know there are a lot of charitable foundations out there. Would there be any fit with any particular foundation that might be interested in supporting you? I know there are many, many other groups that go after foundations, whether it's recreational or heritage or whatever, but are there any possibilities in that regard, I wonder?

DR. OLIVER: There definitely are. One of the issues I had this year was my hope was that we would exactly go after that, get the list of foundations operating in Canada and just start working it. That takes time, that takes staff and the $50,000 that we were going to get this year was going to find someone who would give us $5,000, $10,000, $15,000, then we can start getting some of these other things out. So yes, there are foundations out there, definitely.

MR. PARKER: Okay. I wanted to ask about your school programs, you touched on it earlier. I just wonder if you could elaborate on it a bit as to where you go, what grade levels and what it is you take to the schools, or I guess sometimes you have school groups come to you also, but could you give a little more detail on that?

DR. BISHOP: Sure. The school program is quite involved from early-level elementary to high school, as well as at the university level. We also have looked at the prospect of in-service programs for teachers and university professors as well. The system that we use is based on the curriculum that they apply to from the Afrocentric perspective. They want to learn more about how the African Nova Scotian experience has affected their lifestyles.

We are involving them in what we call an experiential learning process to get them hands-on at the centre. We have games, we have videos, I do dialogue with them, Dr. Oliver may be available to do some dialogue with them, or we have other people come in and do presentations, also hands-on - for example, Edith Clayton's basket making - one of her descendants may come in and do a demonstration. I'm an African Nova Scotian drummer, so I would do a drumming presentation and they would learn how to play African djembe drums. There are a lot of things that they do that are intriguing, exciting and fun - emphasize the word "fun" - that brings them back.

Again, here's the clicker: schools have to raise money for their buses to bring children out to events. Over the years we have dwindled and Dr. Oliver knows from the perspective of going to maybe four or five classes a week, to one or two now because of the cost factor of cutbacks at schools. Yet they say that this is important education and they want to be more inclusive and we're saying, well, you're not showing us that you're doing that in that particular way. The school will have to raise their own funds and the classes aren't given a mandatory aspect - it's up to the teacher - so the children as a result suffer from that.

We have a new program and we call it the CSI program - I'm sure you watch the television show - but we don't say crime, we say cultural investigation. So the kids come in and are all excited about being a little agent for the CSI and they go around and research information. So it starts them off learning to do things and we've found that's one of the factors that works well with our centre. We want to do more with children because that's what we're supposed to be doing in the future.

MR. PARKER: When you come to a school, do you go into the whole school or do you just go into individual classrooms?

DR. BISHOP: I do both. Usually an assembly in some cases, or there might be an individual classroom, social studies or a particular field that they want me to explore and be more specific. But again, it's province-wide and because of the shortage of staff and other matters, I have to be careful how I spend my time, right? I don't get as much chance to go to Cape Breton or Yarmouth or Digby or the Valley areas. Mostly it's metro.

MR. PARKER: Where have you been?

DR. BISHOP: Antigonish just recently, Cape Breton recently, Yarmouth recently, the Annapolis Valley area.

MR. PARKER: Has there been any financial assistance either from the school, I know who have limited funds, or from the school boards or from the Department of Education? Is there any funding to help pay for the costs of travelling?

DR. BISHOP: To be frank, no. We haven't been very successful with that.

MR. PARKER: I was just wondering if there might be some avenues there to pursue with the department, in particular, but perhaps individual school boards also? I'm just throwing that out as a suggestion, I guess, at this point.

DR. BISHOP: I'm sure there are. I just want to mention that we were under the Department of Education and Tourism at one point and that's no longer the case.

MR. PARKER: Okay, I thank you for those answers.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Parker. I'm not sure - Ms. Massey, you did nod at me. I think you're next.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to say thanks for coming in. I always enjoyed my visits to the centre, I was there numerous times with my children when they were attending P to 6. I agree with you that you've probably outgrown that facility because I can remember being in there, it's crowded and you're trying to do a lot of things

in a small space. I think you're probably having issues with hands-on activities and even the activities you were talking about doing with them, drumming and whatever, you don't really have a specific place that you can take them and do that. If you had another staff person you could be doing that while - there are all these issues of staffing, so I sympathize with you there.

I don't think there are probably a lot of schools visiting from outside of HRM and you've said that you've seen the numbers dwindle even within the HRM, and even probably just the Sackville area, and those schools don't make it in a whole lot. I think there's a big issue with your funding being taken out of the Department of Education because I would guess that if it had remained in there, there would be more funding.

It's a shame that this organization, your centre, it's almost as if it's orphaned out there on its own, struggling for funding for something that's part of our culture. Really, to go back every year and ask for more money should not have to happen, 25 years after the building has been put on its foundation. The history and our culture in Nova Scotia should not have to rely on going to the government every year and asking for stable funding. Can you tell me, is there one thing, are there two things, are there three things that are stopping the centre from getting the status of a museum? If so, what needs to be done to make that happen and if that happened, would we be in that same situation or would the funding be more stable?

DR. OLIVER: I'm not sure I fully understand what's missing in terms of us being accepted as a museum, but certainly the implications of that would be great, that portion of the work could be stabilized and we could then focus on other elements. If we could get the museum portion stabilized - and as we've noticed there are several portions to our work. There is the museum portion, but then there's the education, the tourism and the immigrant settlement issues. I'd like to get some of those elements stable so that we can then carry on with the program.

MS. MASSEY: So has the department been very helpful in trying to help you move along that path to receive that status or have they been less than helpful? I know it's hard coming in here and speaking to us about these issues, but I remember the last time you were in we discussed this same topic. There always seems to be not really a concrete, real, this is what we need to do, in order to get from point A to point B.

DR. OLIVER: Frankly, in the past 10 months I've not made that ask and the reason I have not made that ask is because I didn't have the money to prepare the ask. There's no way you can go into something like that without first having a consultant sit down and help you prepare, dig out the facts, find the data, find the justification, put the case together, look at the legal ramifications, what steps are going to be necessary and what's the budget going to look like for me to get an accountant working on this to design what the ask really ought to be, to get an architect looking at it and saying, well, here's what you need. There are costs

involved in making the ask, so there has been the casual and informal. I have not made that ask recently.

DR. BISHOP: Neither have I.

MS. MASSEY: So that's rolled up in the $50,000 a year, asking for a bit more money would get you over that hurdle and maybe into a direction where you'd be able to put together that business plan and the criteria to get a museum status, which I think would move you up higher.

DR. OLIVER: I think I've sort of lost the time for that $50,000 to be useful. Now I'm back, I need the $192,000 because this whole last year has gone and the year has gone because of the lack of any money to go ahead and do a serious ask. I'm getting people to put personal money into this, yes, and we have friends who are putting money into it, helping us with our outreach, but in order to do a real ask, I do need to have someone to do that.

MS. MASSEY: Okay, I understand that, thank you for that answer.

Mr. Parker touched on the Democracy 250 a bit. Did the centre receive any D250 money?

DR. BISHOP: Yes.

MS. MASSEY: Okay, thanks.

DR. OLIVER: We received D250 support for this year's event in Pictou, which was, as Mr. Parker mentioned, larger than it had been in the past.

MS. MASSEY: So there wasn't money that actually went to the facility per se.

DR. OLIVER: No.

MS. MASSEY: Okay, all right.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I've got a tough question for Dr. Oliver. Dr. Oliver, what I need to know is whether your lectures at Acadia, when you were a professor there, were as interesting as your presentation today.

DR. OLIVER: I haven't seen anyone sleeping here, have I? So obviously they weren't. (Laughter)

MR. MORSE: Actually, Dr. Oliver was in charge of the Computer Science faculty at the time of his retirement and stayed on for extra time, while they tried to find somebody who could fill his shoes. I know that Acadia and the entire community appreciates your contribution during that time and I just want to recognize that here today.

We have gone through an amazing time of transition during my lifetime here in Nova Scotia as the descendants of African royalty went from not being welcome at beauty salons, even on their wedding day, or allowed to deliver milk, to a point where today, I'm happy to say, that we celebrate Black contributions and culture.

[10:30 a.m.]

I wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether it would be appropriate to take the essence of this presentation and send a letter from the committee, urging the minister to be aware of the frozen historical provincial grants, since its inception in 1990, and specifically with a little assistance from Dr. Oliver and Dr. Bishop, to identify what perhaps a one-time capital grant would need to be to address deferred maintenance and technology shortfalls because there are times in the provincial budget cycle when these things can happen, if there is an unallocated surplus.

I'm not in any way suggesting that this committee should be directing ministers as to how they craft their budgets but I think we should make sure that the ministers are aware that this has been going on for 18 years and if there is an opportunity between now and March 31, it might be a way of doing something positive for the Black Cultural Centre.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you asking me that, Mr. Morse?

MR. MORSE: I'm making a motion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You're making a motion, okay, that's what I thought it was. I had to clarify that.

My answer would have been yes, but if you want to make the motion, sure. Okay, your motion is to . . .

MR. MORSE: That a letter be drafted to the minister from the committee, urging the minister to consider the frozen historical provincial grants since the Black Cultural Centre's inception, and specifically, suggest a one-time capital grant to address deferred maintenance and technology shortfalls, if the room in the budget becomes available between now and March 31^st.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on the motion? Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, it's a very generous offer on behalf of the member. Unfortunately, a one-time grant won't fix the problem. I'd like to amend the motion that ongoing capital improvement funding be made available in the suggestion to the minister, that it be done and established in negotiation with the Black Cultural Centre as one part of a long-term funding solution for their organization.

So basically what I'm saying is the idea of a capital injection - for capital only, not operation - as the honourable member has indicated, be something that be negotiated on an annual basis and set up on an annual basis to allow them to catch up on their technology and displays and building infrastructure and all the necessary things they have to do on that side of the business that they operate as a cultural site for Nova Scotia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So you're looking to amend the motion?

MR. COLWELL: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I crafted the essence of my motion carefully because I felt that this conceivably could result in, at a minimum, some capital assistance, and I felt that if it went through unanimously, through this committee, that might assist the Black Cultural Centre in this fiscal year. So I cannot support the amendment to the motion because in my experience as a minister, the first motion might be accepted by the minister and I suspect that the second motion would be more difficult because it has financial implications in out-years, which are less likely to be accepted in the short term.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: As a former minister, I understand where you're coming from but the problem that has been with the Black Cultural Centre is little fixes here and there that haven't fixed anything. So I think it's appropriate that the amendment do pass and hopefully, with unanimous support, would be support for the facility long term, rather than just a patch here and there, to give them the capital they need to do the infrastructure improvements that they absolutely have to do. They have to do it in technology and building and everything.

So I would like to hopefully get the unanimous support from all the members, including the government members, that the letter be sent. That doesn't mean that the minister is committed to it. It does mean that the committee recommends it and suggests it to the minister and, if the government is not prepared to support the Black Cultural Centre on an ongoing basis, I would question that very seriously.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I would urge the member to allow the first motion to go forward unamended and if he wants to make a subsequent amendment, then we can vote on that one. I think this first amendment actually could do something very constructive for the Black Cultural Centre.

I do not disagree with the member's arguments but I just have some experience in knowing how to get these things done in the short run. I think with the unanimous consent of this committee, and not trying to bind the minister in future budgets, that we would probably have some success with my initial motion. So I would urge the member to allow the first motion to come forward, hopefully get unanimous consent, and then if the member wants to bring forward another motion, that's fine.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: Well, it's my experience as a minister as well, typically the guidelines are set up by the department and the minister is under no commitment whatsoever from this committee to do anything the committee suggests - nothing - on your motion or my amendment. But if it's put forward that there's long-term funding available for the centre to do these badly-needed improvements that they have to do to survive - I mean this is survival we're talking about here. We're not talking about a one-time shot to fix something or do something else, this is long term.

We're talking only infrastructure. I still want to see the amendment go forward. I will support the minister's motion, as well, but I'd like to see this unanimous, and the minister fully knows that this is not binding on government, it isn't. I'd like to see this go forward so we do have some positive hope for the centre.

The funding has really been cut, it's terrible what has happened to the centre, it's just terrible. If, as a representative of the government, you're not willing to support a long-term solution for the infrastructure problem with the facility, I would question the reason for the motion that you put forward.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Colwell. Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I think Mr. Colwell is misunderstanding what David is trying to do here. Do you want a request to go in the immediate pile of the minister or do you want it to go in for consideration of the department during budget cycle? Do we need the help today or do we need the help after a budget process? Would we throw out an opportunity to get the help today and continue the discussion for tomorrow, I think is where I'd like to be.

I would suggest that the motion the member has made is one that we should support and maybe the member for Kings South - I mean within it, if you read what he has put forward maybe in your first sentence where you talk about the frozen nature of the budget, to consider that with a capital component, and the second paragraph to say, as it has been written, to look at a one-time capital grant for this year. I mean you have to separate those two issues; do we want to delay it by asking for the world, or do we want to have incremental steps and get the job done once and for all?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: Well, I think we're talking about exactly the same thing because as a recommendation goes from this committee to any minister, it is not binding, it doesn't have to be acted upon, but I know it's carefully considered by the minister. If the minister is going to consider something, I agree with - I already said I'm going to support the member's motion but it's only a short little fix and we've seen one of those here not long ago, about three years ago one of those short-term fixes, which was greatly appreciated, but that was the end of it.

I think if we're really going to do something that we're serious about helping the Black Cultural Centre today, my amendment addresses the long-term infrastructure needs of the facility and I really want to get that on the thing - the minister has the option of providing funding, or the government has the option of providing funding on a one-time basis any time they want, for the facility. I think my motion just reinforces what the member has put forward and I'm going to leave my amendment on the motion in place.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. d'Entremont, you know now I'm going to bring this to a close very soon, okay? We will have to take a vote at some point.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Listen, this is again from working within my own community and knowing what works and what doesn't work. I think over 40 years I've learned from some people who have done some marvellous things. If we read again what the first paragraph says, that a letter from the committee urging the minister to consider the frozen historical provincial grants - we didn't say operation and we didn't say capital, we said "grants" in what the minister is putting forward, since its inception in 1990. So in my mind that already addresses the amendment that you brought forward.

The second piece is specifically a one-time capital grant to address the deferred maintenance and technology shortfalls before March 31^st. So looking for the opportunity, should the unallocated surplus be able to be shared around a little bit. So I think the motion already addresses the issue and the amendment that you put forward. I think you're missing it in its entirety.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris.

MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, could we read the motion and the amendment. I'm getting a little confused here now because what I originally heard was for the immediate and I think what the amendment was going to do was looking at more in the long term. We had the motion that was looking after the immediate needs and my understanding was the amendment was to look at things that are going to be ongoing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Paris. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Yes, if I may just paraphrase and then read the amendment?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.

MR. MORSE: Indeed, I did try to respectfully bring this concern forward to the minister - the frozen nature of the funding to the Black Cultural Centre since 1990 - and that is the first paragraph. I know by experience that directives trying to tell the minister how to allocate his or her budget are less likely to bear fruit than making constructive suggestions.

The second part is to recognize that if there is a window of opportunity between now and March 31^st to do something this fiscal year, I think the minister could be receptive to that appeal, so I do feel that we've addressed both in a manner that would be given consideration. If we're too prescriptive in what it says in the letter, I'm concerned that we'll get the wrong answer and so that's why I've crafted it in this manner. With that, I would read my motion again:

That a letter be sent from the committee urging the minister to consider the frozen historical provincial grants since the Black Cultural Centre's inception in 1990 and, specifically, a one-time capital grant to address deferred maintenance and technology shortfalls should the surplus be available between now and March 31, 2009.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would say that obviously I'm supportive of my own motion, but if it is narrowed by the amendment, unfortunately an amended motion could not be supported by this member unanimously, even though I feel that we're both trying to accomplish the same thing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Paris, did you - there is a motion to amend, so I guess we'll deal with that first.

MR. PARKER: Do we need a seconder on that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't think we do, or do we? I wish Gordon was here right now - I don't think you do. (Interruption) He had to go, he had another meeting - I'm drawing on

other expertise. No, we don't need a seconder, the motion is there. Is there any further discussion? We're dealing with the motion to amend and, Mr. Colwell, it says again?

[10:45 a.m.]

MR. COLWELL: Basically, what my amendment is intended to do is to support - I'm going to support the motion for the short-term funding, but it doesn't really address the issue of the Black Cultural Centre's infrastructure needs and that's what you're talking about when you say a grant. I think we really have to have the amendment indicate, as I said, that this would be an ongoing facilities grant to improve the facilities. It's a whole other issue, the operating side of the centre.

I still want to make that amendment, I think it would be tremendously helpful to the centre if they knew that for the next five or 10 years they can expect a certain amount of money to upgrade infrastructure. It's something - the stability - that they haven't had for a long, long time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion to amend, is there any further discussion on that? (Interruption) A recorded vote? Okay. Can I call for the question on the motion to amend. Are you requesting a recorded vote? Okay.

YEAS NAYS

Mr. C. Parker Hon. C. d'Entremont

Ms. D. Whalen Hon. D. Morse

Mr. K. Colwell

Mr. P. Paris

Ms. J. Massey

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.

So that would amend the motion to include an ask of what Mr. Colwell has stated already in his amendment. Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I'm just wondering, could I see that in text? He's amending something and I really don't know where he's amending it. Again, I know we've already voted on it, but he's saying exactly the same thing that the member for Kings South . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The wording . . .

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Yes, what's the wording?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The wording is a bit different from what Mr. Morse has put forward in his original motion. The wording is "a continued source of funding"?

MR. COLWELL: Ongoing, sustainable funding.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ongoing, sustainable - so I think actually it's just a little bit of wording that we'd have to fix up. We're still sending a letter, as I understand it, to the minister, are we not, requesting funding? Mr. Morse's motion has been amended, so that motion is still intact, including the amendment as I understand it.

MR. MORSE: I feel that the amendment is more of a directive to the minister and I want the minister to respectfully hear the struggles of the last 18 years. I feel that the unanimous endorsement of this committee probably would have been helpful during the next budget cycle and this fiscal year. As I stated before, with that extra direction that is being given with the amendment, I feel that we're exceeding what's appropriate, in my opinion, coming from the committee. For that reason, I now have to vote against the amendment and I regret being put in that situation, because I brought it forward in good faith.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me interject, Mr. Morse. What we've done here is, you're saying you're looking for your Cabinet colleagues to address this issue, but you've voted against a motion that does exactly that. The only two people who voted against this motion are two members of Cabinet at this committee . . .

MR. D'ENTREMONT: On the amendment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: On the amendment, but if you're going to put another motion forward and you want it unanimously endorsed by this committee, then - is that what you're suggesting? The motion that had a recorded vote right now, that we just took, had two Nays.

MR. MORSE: Yes.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: But now we've got the amendment because democracy ruled.

MR. CHAIRMAN: But Mr. Morse is saying that he wanted a unanimous motion. Well, you didn't have one because you voted against it.

MR. MORSE: I wanted the committee to be able to put forward a unanimous motion that, I believe, would have been well received by the minister. I think with the amount of direction that is now in the amended motion, it has changed the whole complexion of the original motion that was made by me. I know we're trying to get to the same end point, but I crafted it in that manner for a reason.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Absolutely. But I don't fully agree with you that it has changed your motion to that extent. I think it's an addition to your motion. I think the intent of your motion is still very clear. I can't predict, nor can anyone here predict, how the minister is going to receive this letter. As Mr. Colwell has stated, they're under absolutely no obligation to pay attention to what this committee says. We just hope they do and that we make the case, and I think that's what we're trying to do. Mr. Paris.

MR. PARIS: I just wanted to, because we can probably go around this, but what I'm hearing though is a motion was put on the floor, an amendment was made to the motion, it was voted on. What I've heard is one member of the committee say that it's basically the same thing, and then I've heard another member say that it's the same thing but it's not the same thing. I'm of the opinion that what we have here now - if the goals are the same, it's going to be how the minister receives this letter, because the ask remains the same. The ask is looking for some immediate action to be taken by government to address the shortfall that the Black Cultural Centre faces, and part two of the ask is that we also have to look at this in the long term. (Interruptions)

MR. MORSE: One last one.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I feel the motion is probably not going to be as influential as the original motion, but I accept your interpretation of the amended motion and I will vote in favour, although I feel that we would probably have had a better chance of success with the original motion. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: A recorded vote.

YEAS NAYS

Mr. Parker

Mr. d'Entremont

Mr. Morse

Ms. Whalen

Mr. Colwell

Mr. Paris

Ms. Massey

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.

Ms. Whalen, quickly.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Just one comment. In writing the letter that will go along with this motion, I wonder if you could please put in the urgency of the funding because of the fact that what was said today was that the Black Cultural Centre, because of a shortfall in funding, their programs are eroding and their building is in serious difficulty. I think it's very important that we put some urgency in there, having heard today that this is a really serious problem.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, noted.

MR. COLWELL: Could I ask one question?

MR. CHAIRMAN: A quick one, Mr. Colwell, yes.

MR. COLWELL: Could I ask the gentlemen who are here from the Black Cultural Centre to provide us with a letter indicating what your operational funding requirements are in today's terms and what your infrastructure requirements are in today's terms and what you need to do, in some detail, and have that directed to the chairman of the committee at your earliest convenience? I realize it will take you some time to put that together. I think it's important that we have those documents and that information.

DR. BISHOP: Is there a window, Mr. Colwell?

MR. COLWELL: How long do you think it will take?

DR. BISHOP: The president says, we'll work it out.

DR. OLIVER: We'll find something.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Oliver, Dr. Bishop, we appreciate your time. Sorry it took so long, but you've given me one of the most entertaining committee meetings that we've had in a long time anyway, so I certainly appreciate that. (Laughter) Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming today.

DR. BISHOP: Thank you for allowing us to be here.

DR. OLIVER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee members, don't go anywhere, we have other business.

Right now we're circulating the annual report of the committee, please. You've been given it beforehand, so I assume that you've read it. We're signing it today.

MR. MORSE: Would you like specific questions about Page 65?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I would not. (Laughter) Definitely not, Mr. Morse, thank you though.

We're also dealing with a couple of pieces of correspondence before you today. One is from the Leader of the Opposition and the other is from Mr. John Dalziel. That matter has actually been dealt with by the committee before, but I did agree to bring it back to the committee again. So can we deal first of all with the letter from Mr. Dexter, Leader of the Opposition? It's a letter requesting that the Human Resources Committee take up the issue of "gas and dash" thefts, and specifically to hear from retail dealers, oil companies, the department, and health and safety representatives, for public discussion on this issue. Is there any discussion on the issue whatsoever? Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd just like to say that I think it is a very important issue and that it's timely. With the cost of gas going up, indeed we may see more and more of these "gas and dash" thefts. So I don't think it would be harmful in any way to have the appropriate witnesses come forward to give us their views on how possible legislation would affect their businesses.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm going to suggest that perhaps - Mr. Paris, go ahead.

MR. PARIS: When I first read this letter, I guess it was a couple of months ago now, and I think that from where the standing committee - you know, by us taking up this issue, I wonder if it would be more appropriate if we put a request into - because we have Voluntary Planning who could, if we solicited their assistance to go around and go through the process and have Voluntary Planning coordinate and gather the data and present it to us, maybe that might be something that we would want to consider.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I'm going to suggest that perhaps where we're dealing with potential witness lists coming up in our organizational meeting, would this not be a request that should go there? Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: I would agree with that but I also wonder if this might not be better dealt with - and it's a very important topic, it raises a tremendous number of issues - wouldn't it be better dealt with at the Economic Development Committee because it has an economic impact on the province? All the items that are really discussed here are perhaps things that Economic Development could look at, rather than this committee. Just a suggestion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You know the letter comes from the Leader of the Opposition directly to this committee, asking that we deal with the issue. If we're not going to deal with

it, we're not going to deal with it. But if you're making a suggestion that perhaps it should be deferred to another committee - Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: I've looked at the letter, too, and I think there's certainly a need to discuss this issue. I personally can't see why this committee couldn't look at it. We could invite a representative from the oil companies - there's a gentleman I know who fills that role; the Nova Scotia Retail Gasoline Dealers Association; and maybe someone from the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. I think it is an important issue and I can't see why this committee couldn't look at it.

[11:00 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much. I agree with the member for Preston that even though there is, I'm sure, a human resources issue here, it's not the primary issue. The primary issue is an economic one and it's a justice one, because it's sort of against the law. So I would say that we should actually refer that to the Human Resources Committee. I don't know how that could happen - sorry, to the Economic Development Committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, well, we've had several suggestions. Mr. Paris is suggesting that we have Voluntary Planning do some research for us and bring it forward. I'm not taking exception to the issue here, I agree with Mr. Parker that this is a very serious subject that should be dealt with somewhere. I just don't know if this is the right place to do it or not. Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I will apologize. I don't know exactly what took place in British Columbia but it appears with the letter that there was some sort of a public discussion, probably something that looked like Voluntary Planning, which is a fantastic mechanism in Nova Scotia. I would say I would go along with Voluntary Planning also, but do we have any other mechanism that would bring forward public debate and discussion on any issue?

MR. CHAIRMAN: In committee, when we're in any committee of the Legislature, it's my understanding that we put together an organizational plan and a potential witness list and we can ask people to appear before us, usually on a subject that's connected within the mandate for our committee. I'm just wondering - I understand the letter coming from the Leader of the Opposition - but I'm wondering, why haven't the members from the New Democratic Party decided to put this on your wish list of witnesses that you would like to see?

MS. MASSEY: We have an updated list, I just had it this morning. Sorry.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I haven't seen that, then, thank you. I'm sure it's on it, then. Okay, Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I was wondering if I could help you out and put a motion on the floor and we can vote on it or whatever, to refer this to the Human Resources Committee - sorry, I apologize, my brain is a little dead today - to the Economic Development Committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion then is to forward this to the Economic Development Committee for them to deal with. Any further discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next item is a letter from John Dalziel. I do believe that the committee - I was not in attendance at that meeting but did deal with this. Now, Mr. Dalziel did contact me again by e-mail, which you have a copy of, and I did e-mail Mr. Dalziel back, telling him that I would bring this up again at a future meeting of the Human Resources Committee, and this is what we're doing at this point in time.

Again, it was dealt with before and it was dealt with in a manner that there was a vote taken, I believe, and the vote was not to hear Mr. Dalziel at this committee meeting, that indeed he should be directed toward the college of professional engineers, I believe. Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I might have missed one of the last Human Resources meetings, but the last thing I recollect was that Ms. Whalen was in the Chair and she had made a comment about if the gentleman had already tried to contact another organization - he had jumped through the hoops - we didn't know at the time that he had done that. What happened was after she made the comment and it was voted on, we all agreed, or however it came out, that we would check to see if he had indeed filled the criteria in order to get here. What happened is when we went home there was evidence that he had already done those things. So you've probably seen the letter since then that he indeed had gone through all those mechanisms and contacted the proper - I don't know.

So I think he had done his homework and so once that request was fulfilled, I think we all had agreed that he could come in and speak to us, along with maybe the organization involved. That's what I understood.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I would just make the comment that these professional associations really value having their own college so that they can administer their own affairs, and there are quite a number of them that would like to be in the same position as the professional engineers. In essence what we're doing is allowing one member of their society to come and speak against their college.

I just do not think the Legislature needs to be sticking its nose in these areas, through its committees. I think we're setting a precedent here. I agree that the gentleman has certainly researched his grievance but I think it rests with his own college. There are many professional associations that would love to be in that position, as being recognized as having their own college. So I respectfully urge the committee not to set that precedent.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. d'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As reading this one over the last number of months and seeing the correspondence from Mr. Dalziel, you know calling a spade a spade here is that Mr. Dalziel did not like the answer that he got from the college of professional engineers. I don't think it's our mandate to second-guess a decision of a professional college.

So I would move that we stay the course and not hear from Mr. Dalziel.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I did want to just mention that when we took the vote at the meeting that I chaired, we had before us some guidance from Legislative Counsel, and so on, about the mandate of our committee and that we did not hear from individuals.

Now I gather that there may have been one time - it's mentioned in Mr. Dalziel's letter that there was a break to that precedent, but as a rule I think it's important that we try to keep our discussions to organizations and government departments. I do believe that, again, if the Acts require some change or something like that, then the way to go about it is to lobby with the Opposition and government to look for changes in the Acts - that would be the Professional Engineers Act or the Acts that govern it - if there's something wrong in that case, but I don't think it's necessary to come to this committee as an individual.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: I was going to mention that we have had individuals here before. On at least one occasion I can recall around the education with the private schools, parents and grandparents on the tuition amount. They were here as individuals at that time. The precedent has been set so I don't see why we couldn't have Mr. Dalziel here before us.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: Mr. Parker is correct, we did have individuals in here but that was on a topic of non-professional accreditation. This is professional accreditation and there are laws and the associations have set these up to protect people.

I don't know what this gentleman's concern is but I think, like my colleagues have said, this is more appropriately addressed by a change in legislation, if it's due, and close consideration by the Association of Professional Engineers. I think it would be a mistake for us to meddle in that operation, although sometimes I personally don't agree with some of the decisions that the associations make, that's my own opinion. But I never have all the facts in these cases, so I think it's more appropriately dealt with by the people who are ultimately responsible for this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour . . .

MR. PARKER: What was the motion?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is that we stay the course and not hear Mr. Dalziel. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

We will write to Mr. Dalziel and, in particular, I want it copied to the member for Dartmouth North because it was the member for Dartmouth North who referred Mr. Dalziel to us. I've had correspondence from the member in the past, to a certain extent blaming me - anyway, I'm the chairman and the committee makes the decisions, not the chairman. So this was a committee decision that was made and I'd like that pointed out in the letter to the member for Dartmouth North. Thank you very much.

The next organizational meeting, we have a list - Ms. Massey, can I see your updated list there, please?

MS. MASSEY: There are two things still left on our list, I think, and this is just three additions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The PC caucus has put forward two new ones on their wish list. The last one that was on the Liberal caucus witness list was dealt with today, it was the Black Cultural Centre. There are two outstanding ones on the New Democratic Party caucus list: statistics and data management, concerning P to 12 education, and the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia. The NDP caucus has also added Advanced Precision Machining - I'm not sure exactly what that is; Nova Scotia Community College; and the nurse practitioner program, specifically the Deputy Minister of Health to talk about that. Ms. Whalen.

MS. WHALEN: Are we having another meeting to set the agenda then, the upcoming year's agenda?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I was going to do it today but it's too late. We're losing members as the minutes go by and we've all got other business to do. What I will do is Jana will circulate all of these to everyone within the next month and our next meeting is set now anyway for October 28^th, and that's the week the Legislature goes in. We go in on October 30^th, and that's a Thursday, so we may be able to do something not that week, but the next week because we can meet again once the Legislature resumes, we're not just strictly on one month-to-month meeting just for ABCs, so we can set up an organizational meeting, I think, for the second week of the sitting, if that's okay with everyone?

MR. PARKER: Do we have a witness for our next meeting or not?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we'll just deal with ABCs.

MR. PARKER: And that's on October 28^th.

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to have the Liberal caucus submit more names since our two are now both done.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's clear to see that the Liberal caucus probably have the best suggestions because they've all been used up.

MS. WHALEN: We want to put more in.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I can't see any argument with that. We can deal with it on October 28^th, we can deal with it then. Is that agreed? It is agreed.

If you wanted to move adjournment of the meeting, that would be great.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: I so move.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The meeting is adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 11:13 a.m.]