HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. David Wilson, Glace Bay (Chairman)

Hon. David Morse

Hon. Christopher d'Entremont

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Percy Paris

Mr. Michel Samson

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Mr. Leonard Preyra replaced Mr. Charles Parker.]

[Mr. David Wilson was replaced by Mr. Leo Glavine.]

[Mr. Michel Samson was replaced by Mr. Keith Colwell.]

In Attendance:

Ms. Jana Hodgson

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2008

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Chuck Porter): We'll bring this meeting to order, we'll start with introductions, please.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll start off by letting everyone on the committee know that the first appointment under the Department of Finance for the Bridge Commission, Mr. Brian Butler, there's a short letter from the minister stating that Mr. Butler's name has been withdrawn.

We'll move on to the current boards, the Department of Community Services. Mr. Morse, I would expect you to start us off this morning.

HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I would move the nomination of Audrey C. MacNeil to be a board member of the Advisory Committee on Children & Family Services Act.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion, Ms. Massey?

MS. JOAN MASSEY: I do have a little bit of discussion. I was just wondering if you may recall a while back, two women had pressed the government on getting this committee back in action and one of them was Linda Youngsten. To the best of my knowledge she had applied to get on this specific board and to my most recent knowledge, I don't think she has been appointed to that.

There are some vacant spots on it still, but according to the information here this morning I don't know, looking at that information, what she qualified for, because for some of the positions you have to be someone with a child that has been in the care of family services or such. I guess the question is - I'm concerned that now we're putting somebody on this when she has applied a fairly long time ago. So I don't know if the minister, or somebody here with the government, might have any information on that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other discussion, Mr. Morse, on that or are you aware of anything you want to comment further on about Ms. MacNeil.

MR. MORSE: I am not aware of any of the background.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nor am I. As far as background goes, once again, this committee's mandate is to approve or disapprove the names that come forward. I will assume, at this point in time, that any other work that needs to be done is prior to the minister suggesting and signing off at Executive Council, so it has been moved. Any other discussions on the matter?

MS. MASSEY: If I can just add to that, you will notice that six women actually did apply to that. We don't know if she was one of these women. Actually, she applied back in December 2006, that has been two years, so all I need is confirmation. She is definitely not on the list of people who are on it now, so I'm going to assume that she applied in 2006 and she has not gotten on it. I don't know if she was qualified to be on it or not qualified to be on it. So again, we're in one of those dilemmas of you know somebody who has applied and you know they've applied, yet you never see their name, and it has been two years.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I was just conversing with Mr. Hebb, again, it's not the role of the committee, the name has been put forward. We're going to move through a number of names and we can either approve or disapprove them. I understand what you're stating. If she has applied, perhaps she has applied, perhaps she hasn't, all of the names have been vetted through Executive Council and at this point in time, if there is no further discussion, Mr. Preyra.

MR. LEONARD PREYRA: I'm looking at this committee and I see that four of the 10 positions are expiring, or have expired, and three of them are vacant, so seven of the 10 are in fact vacant. I'm wondering why that is with this committee and only one has been brought forward at this time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I can't answer that. We can certainly write to the minister and ask that. At the same time if there are vacancies and there are other names that members around this table are aware that have applied, given Ms. Massey's example, perhaps she should touch base with them and make sure that applicant has reapplied, or applied, or if she's on the list.

MR. MORSE: I can make the comment that of course there is a committee that scrutinizes everybody for their qualifications, it's arm's length before the names are given to the minister for consideration. I do know that this committee in particular has been a difficult one to fill because of the diverse nature of the various members who are legislated to form the committee. Again, you've heard me say this in this forum before, that it's not always easy to get qualified volunteers for agencies, boards and commissions and this particular committee would definitely be one of those.

MR. PREYRA: It seems strange that you would have seven applicants for an agency that has almost seven vacancies and only one of them was, in fact, qualified.

MR. MORSE: Again, Mr. Chairman, it may be because of the nature of the vacancies. This particular one is broken down, that there's supposed to be somebody from this sector and somebody representing that sector. If all 10 fell into the same sector, then, in actual fact, it may be a bit of an illusion that there's so many people trying to get on the committee.

I'm just telling you from my own past experience, I do not have information about those particular applicants but I thought that it might be of assistance.

MR. PREYRA: Well, maybe I can have a more specific question then, Mr. Chairman. The composition says that the "Minister appoints 2 persons (whose children have been, are or may be in need of protective services)". How do we know that those positions have been filled or have been advertised or applications have been made for those particular positions?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well my thought, Mr. Preyra, would be that this applicant has gone through the process again, as I've stated moments ago, through Executive Council. They either meet it or they don't. If they've met it, obviously their name has been put forward to be voted on. This committee has to be under the assumption at all times that that has been done.

MR. PREYRA: Could I then ask a question formally, that we ask whether or not two of those people who are on this board at the moment are people whose children have been, are or may be in need of protective services? Has that criterion been filled in this appointment process and if not, why hasn't it been filled?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we can write the minister and ask that question again. The name of Audrey MacNeil is still on the floor.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre. Mr. Glavine.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: I move the appointment of Randy Holmesdale to be a board member for the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Economic Development, InNOVAcorp. Mr. d'Entremont.

HON. CHRISTOPHER D'ENTREMONT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for being just a little late. I move the name of Susan J. McIsaac for board member for InNOVAcorp.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: I just want to point out that actually there was a discrepancy in that it did not become advertised. If you look at the form, Question 9, "Was this vacant position advertised within the last 12 months?" It says no, and that the requirement to advertise was missed due to administrative oversight. Then they followed a planning exercise where prospective board members, a list was prepared and so while it was not advertised, they actually interviewed three men and three women. This person who is on here today was actually approached regarding her interest in that position because of some work or something she had done previously that impressed somebody there.

This is the first time since I've been on this committee since 2003 that I've seen that kind of a response to whether this was advertised. So I'm wondering, is this going to set some sort of a precedent that in the future we can bypass something being advertised? I believe this is an important agency for someone to be appointed to, so I'm just throwing that out there before we vote.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would state that all of these are actually important and I'm just going to ask Mr. Hebb, since he's here, I know you've been part of that, Ms. Massey as well, the work that has gone into advertising and trying to attract people to these boards and so on. Gordon, are we able to go back on that, just where this wasn't advertised, administrative oversight or otherwise? I believe the rules do state that it has to be advertised, I thought that it would be. If it does, perhaps we need to go back and ensure that it's advertised prior to appointing that person. It may still end up to be the same, but just let's see if the rules apply.

MR. GORDON HEBB: On a quick look, I'm not seeing anything that actually requires the advertising.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not required, thank you.

MR. HEBB: It's not required by the rules and I'm not sure - because I haven't been involved with the proceedings in the past - whether this committee has laid down any criteria that they wished to lay down in that regard.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The subcommittee has certainly worked towards doing their very best to change advertisements and things like that over the past year or so to attract more applicants.

MR. HEBB: And that's my understanding of the purpose of the advertising, was to make sure that there were plenty of applicants.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, correct. Mr. Morse.

[9:15 a.m.]

MR. MORSE: Might I make a suggestion that if the committee wants to vote on Ms. McIsaac's candidacy today, a letter go back to the minister and to InNOVAcorp letting them know that we are concerned that they did not place an ad and would ask to make sure that in future, this is always done. I'm not presuming the committee's wishes in terms of voting on this candidate. It sounds like they've done due diligence in terms of finding a well-qualified candidate, but I do think that notice should be formally made back to InNOVAcorp and the minister that they missed this practice. In fact, I would suggest that they probably complicated the proceedings by not placing the ad.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Preyra.

MR. PREYRA: Yes, I think, certainly, we would agree with the spirit of the minister's recommendation, but I have a similar question of the earlier one. Now, in this one, 10 of the 12 positions are vacant and the description says that currently the board has seven men and three women. I'm wondering how we reconcile that? There are actually only two people sitting on this board but the description of it says that there are seven men and three women.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, again, I want to state clearly that I know we've had many discussions here about the diversity, the diversity, the diversity. I agree with all of them. We stated that in the past, as our caucus as well I believe, certainly the chairman has, but I want to get back to the purpose of the committee. The name has been put forward, we either vote on it or not. We can write and stress all of these things as you wish, I'm not opposed to that, but we can't rectify or answer any of the questions that you are pointing to, Mr. Preyra.

MR. PREYRA: I'm not disagreeing with the recommendation, Mr. Chairman. I'm just disagreeing with the quality of information that's coming forward here. We've got a dossier, it's all we have in front of us, that says this board is comprised of 12 members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. PREYRA: Ten of the positions on that board are vacant, only two are listed as members, and yet when we're looking at the recommendation that's coming forward, it says currently the board has seven men and three women. So there are apparently 10 people on this board but they're not listed here. The complaint is the quality of the information coming forward which is similar to the recommendation that came before.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Then I would suggest that we write the Executive Council specifically, not to any one board or agency, or any one minister specifically. Perhaps we need to write the Executive Council in general, Mr. Preyra, to say, you know, more information should be put forward as opposed to each and every individual. It appears as though, you know, it's not just on one, we've had discussion on that.

MR. PREYRA: Right.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we need to write and ask the Executive Council specifically. Mr. Hebb, do you have any comment on that or are you okay with that?

MR. HEBB: No, I think his point is that there's not enough information and that it's wrong information because there seems to be only two members of the board in one place and they're saying there are 10.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Exactly, so the clarity in where they're coming from, what the vacancies actually are, there have been a great deal of issues with this all the way along. (Interruption) The InNOVAcorp Board and this specific one.

MR. PREYRA: I've only been on this committee twice and this is only my second day, but in looking at these files, we have three files that have gone forward today and all three of them have pretty significant gaps in information, incomplete information, wrong information. I'm wondering why the quality of information coming forward is not better since, particularly, in agencies, boards and commissions, the government is saying you have to rely on what you have in front of you and that's all the information you have.

MR. MORSE: I agree with Leonard. They should be checking their numbers and I think it's totally appropriate that it be pointed out to them that there's an inconsistency in the information they've put forward to the committee. By doing so, I suspect, that whoever is responsible for preparing this information will make sure it never happens again.

MR. PREYRA: I can't believe that three files going forward, all three of them have significant errors in them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess that's what I'm getting at, Leonard, as well. Instead of writing specifically to one minister who's responsible for InNOVAcorp, go to Executive Council and say, here are some discrepancies that we're finding on a regular basis. The stuff is supposed to be checked, let's make it what it's supposed to be so this committee has the appropriate information to make the appropriate decisions when we're sitting here. The purpose of this committee is to put forward the names and vote on the names and not have to go through a great deal of discussion or debating this and this and what's not clear - as you have done this morning. I think that letter to Executive Council is fine and let's move forward.

Let's go back to Ms. Susan McIsaac and furthur discussion on Ms. McIsaac being appointed. Mr. Preyra.

MR. PREYRA: Sorry, was the minister moving a motion on advertising before that?

MR. MORSE: I was making a suggestion that perhaps the chairman would write to Executive Council and point out that they did not place an ad and that the expectation of the committee, in future, that would always be done. It was under the caveat that it was subject to the wishes of the committee to vote on this nominee because of the gap in process.

MR. PREYRA: I think we would be willing to move a motion to that effect, that these positions be advertised and be competed before they come forward to this committee.

MR. MORSE: In future, or including this one?

MR. PREYRA: The future would make more sense at this point, given that we're getting advice that this may not have been a prerequisite.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion on the floor, let's deal with that.

MR. MORSE: On the letter?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, on Mr. Preyra's motion. We have a motion on the floor.

MR. MORSE: Seconded.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion, please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Okay, let's bounce back to InNOVAcorp, Susan McIsaac. Any further discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion, please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Now, I'm going to have to be excused. Come knock on the door when you're done.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Department of Health, Advisory Commission on AIDS.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Health, Advisory Commission on AIDS, I so move Barbara Clow, Thelma Coward-Ince, Margaret Dwyer, Mary Hart-Baker, Dorothy Malcom and Lynn Stevenson as board members.

MS. MASSEY: I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I do feel I need to point out these things. When I spend this much time going through this binder, this is another one that just has discrepancies as far as how many people had applied. If you look at it, the first person on the list, it says two people applied for it; when you look at the next person it says two people; the next, four people; the next, four people; the next one, six people; the next one, six people - we have three different answers to the one question on how many people applied for those positions.

Whether that could be a glitch in that they applied during a different advertising session, maybe, I don't know. I just wanted to point that out. I think we have spent so much time in advertising and a lot of money . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have.

MS. MASSEY: . . . that we want to make sure we have that right, so I'm just pointing that out.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed, thank you. Any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

To the district health authorities, District Health Authority 2, South West Nova. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would move Trudy Amirault and Mason Van Tassell as board members of the South West Nova District Health Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

District Health Authority 3, Mr. Glavine.

MR. GLAVINE: I would move the appointment of John Gallivan to Annapolis Valley Health Authority 3.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Colchester-East Hants Health Authority 4, Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: I move the appointment of John MacDonald and Charlene McCulloch to the board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded. Nay.

The motion is carried.

District Health Authority 6, Ms. Whalen.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: I move the appointment of Ed Bowden, Travis Gunn, Howard McNutt and Joe Whalen.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

District Health Authority 7, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would move Lionel Aucoin, Phil Hughes and David Samson to be board members of the Guysborough Antigonish Strait Health Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

District Health Authority 8, Cape Breton. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would move Yann Artur, Richard Gwinn, Yvon LeBlanc and Louise Smith-MacDonald to be board members of the Cape Breton District Health Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

District Health Authority 9, Capital District. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would move Sean Paul Beddell to be a board member and Dean of Faculty of Health Professions, Dalhousie University, as a non-voting, ex-officio member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion?

MR. MORSE: Excuse me, I believe it's the Dean that becomes the non-voting ex-officio members, so there's actually two appointments there; one is a position and one is a person. So it would be the Dean of the Faculty of Health Professions of Dalhousie University as a non-voting, ex-officio member in addition to Mr. Beddell as a board member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this one I feel I need to point out that right now there are 13 men and one female on that board. If you look at the letter that was sent through from the Eastern Shore-Musquodoboit Community Health Board, they do say they interviewed three applicants for that position.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Which position?

MS. MASSEY: For Shawn Paul Beddell, and that resumés for two additional candidates interviewed are included with the package. I don't know how - somewhere in there, in this information - we don't know whether these two other applicants were female because almost all of the ones who just applied to the health authority are unknown. The question is, was it advertised, it's unknown. Most of them we don't even know if they were advertised.

On this one, it's unknown if it was advertised. So I have to bring up gender equality on this one because the Capital Health, right now, is the largest district in Atlantic Canada and that actually takes in the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre under its umbrella. This same person is going to be coming up on the next page as being appointed to the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre. The Capital Health Board of Directors right now is made up of all men except for one woman, I believe, from my information.

You know, when I went through this yesterday I think we're facing some sort of a dilemma here. Most of the people who are being appointed today, I didn't track the numbers exactly but if you look at it, a lot of them are reappointments. We're going to have to come to some kind of decision in the very near future that if we keep reappointing people who are men we are never going to give women a chance to be on these boards. So if we keep reappointing people who may have been there for a year or two years, even though they're doing a fabulous bang- up job, women are never going to get a chance to prove that they can do the same thing.

So I think it's a dilemma that the government is going to have to face in the way that these appointments are done. I don't know exactly what they're going to have to do but if you look at this one as an example, here we are reappointing a male and we don't even know if any females applied. It's a board made up of all men except for one woman and I just don't think that's fair. The government is going to have to find some way to maybe make some really hard decisions and not reappoint some of these people so I just need to lay that out there.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your comments Ms. Massey. One of the other ones that you mentioned there that's also important is the fact that it's checked unknown for being advertised. I don't know how that can be an unknown. I'm a little bit curious as to why it's either yes or no, I would think. Again it's relates back to Mr. Preyra and what we were all discussing a little bit earlier and in that letter request these are some of the points that are going to have to be mentioned. How can we know whether it was advertised or not along with some other things. I think there is much clarity it appears that needs to be required.

MS. MASSEY: To be fair, when it says unknown, it says the nominating committee in the district receives the applications directly from individuals interested in serving and follow their own screening process. So if it's not advertised and people across the province don't know that there's a vacant spot there, how do these people know there's a vacant spot there? So that leads you down another pathway also.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There are numerous reasons perhaps why they may not advertise it. There may have been lots of applications from the previous ones still sitting, there may be letters coming in, there may be any number of things. Again, advertised or not should be

fairly obviously yes or no, at the point in time, however we'll add that and find out with regard to clarity.

MR. PERCY PARIS: I was going to wait until the end but I'm going to put my question on the table now. The question I have since we're talking about the diversity or the lack of, and I know this is something that comes up at just about every meeting that I've attended since I have been on this committee - not that I've been on this committee for a long time - but in the Standing Committee on Human Resources Guidelines on Item No. 5 when I went through this I noticed and my colleague noticed the same thing. It asked the same question, "Does the ABC currently meet the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government?" What I see here is it's always yes, they do. I'm wondering if we, the committee, could have a copy of the policies as they relate to affirmative action and gender equality.

One of the things we talked about, certainly over the time that I've been on this board, when we talk about affirmative action and gender equality and diversity we always talk about the gender equity, and fair enough. One of the things that I look for and sometimes it's hard to determine is, I'm trying to determine the diversity of the names that are coming forward. Obviously that's a very difficult one to determine just by name so I'd like to know what the policy is, if we could have a copy of that policy. I'd also like to know the interpretation when someone says yes, it's meeting the guidelines of what the policy is. Maybe that person's interpretation of the policy may be a little bit different than mine so I don't know. If we recognize that the lack of diversity is an issue for ABCs in the Province of Nova Scotia but yet we're saying, yes, it meets the affirmative action in gender equality policies of the government, then I'm having a little problem trying to reconcile the two of them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for those comments, Mr. Paris, we'll certainly request that a copy of the policies be put forward to the committee if that's your wish. So we can do that, sure. (Interruption) I'm just being told that this information has been requested and it will be on the agenda at the next meeting. So we should have some good discussion at the next meeting I would assume, Mr. Paris, by having that brought forward.

The other one I would mention too, in looking at number five just quickly, or any of them that come forward with yes on them, they would almost all have to have yes on them to be recommended they be put on the list, I would think. As far as that answer yes goes, when I look at that, I'm going to go okay, if they meet them, they're not going to put no there and then submit the name. Not that that's right or wrong, I'm just suggesting that's why the yes is on the list as far as something being filled in the spot. Any other discussion on Health Authority 9, Capital District? Mr. Preyra.

MR. PREYRA: Just to ask a general question, who says yes to those forms, who makes the decision there?

MR. CHAIRMAN: That would be part of the vetting process through Executive Council. Mr. Morse, you may wish to speak to that.

MR. MORSE: I would just make the comment that when the applications come forward to the minister, that is one of the criteria that's checked off. When did they place the ad? How many people responded to the ad? Answering those general questions, you read it over and you either sign or you don't sign.

MR. PREYRA: I understand that. I don't think we can expect the minister to go through each and every application and know whether or not the equity criterion has been met; but I'm wondering, is this decision made at the regional authority level, or is it made somewhere at the executive level?

MS. MASSEY: When is that question actually answered, at what point in the process.

MR. PREYRA: Yes, but who is saying yes to these things that are coming forward and who is saying, you know, this board meets this criteria? I'm not talking about in theory because I know the minister in theory is saying yes, but in practice who says yes?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Well, I think what we're looking for is at what point in the process - and we have had the process outlined for us before - at what exact point in the process is that question answered.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good question. Do you know the answer to that, Mr. Hebb? (Interruptions) Ms. Massey, did you have something further to add to that?

MS. MASSEY: No, I mean we know what the process is but it's not, you know, we've had it outlined.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Step by step.

MS. MASSEY: Step by step, but it's not in great detail, right, so we don't know when which form gets filled out by what department.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly you can request more information. I think what we're asking for is certainly a lot more detail all around and not just specific to one item, obviously, in the appointments. Mr. Paris.

MR. PARIS: Mr. Chairman, I have to bring this up, I know that the role of this committee is not to micromanage, and I certainly wouldn't want to get in that position but,

again, I reiterate that the topic that always comes up at this table, the common theme, is generally around diversity.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is.

MR. PARIS: And I'm just wondering, when government advertises for vacancies and when they tick off the advertisement, if we're really seeking true diversity and true representation on any of the ABCs, I'm curious as to where those advertisements would take place. If one advertises in The ChronicleHerald and says, well, that fulfills the requirement of advertising, then you may not be meeting a certain target of the population that you're trying to meet. So, in other words, my question is around the publications that come out from the African Nova Scotian community, the publications that come out from the Mi'kmaq community, publications that come through the AUBA. Maybe what government should do if they're not doing it, is spread the net a little bit when it comes to advertising and seek more people from a diverse background.

MS. JANA HODGSON (Legislative Committee Clerk): I may be able to answer this question for you. The advertisement for the agency, board and commission appointments is done twice a year - in the Spring and in the Fall. The advertisements are done in various ways - they are done in the print media and they are done province-wide. They are done in The ChronicleHerald and Cape Breton Post, but also in local newspapers. They are also done on cable TV, the ads run for two weeks. They are also advertised on two government Web sites - one is the Executive Council's Web site and one is the provincial Web site.

As a matter of fact, the full advertisment has just been completed recently and all the members of the Legislature have been copied on the ad. There's what we call the bulk ad, which is a full ad, and the smaller teaser ad. All the members of the Legislature have been asked to post this ad in their constituency office and let people know that this, in fact, is happening.

That's the process associated with advertisements over the positions.

MR. PARIS: I think that further validates my concern. Even though there may be a broad brush with respect to advertising, my suggestion is that the brush be more inclusive. I'll leave it at that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps, Mr. Paris, we'll find you on subcommittee to help offer some of those suggestions as we work there, as Mr. Colwell and Ms. Massey and others have.

MS. WHALEN: I was actually going to refer to your subcommittee because I've been on this Committee on Human Resources for some time and I know we have had some special meetings along the way where we have had people come in to explain to us the process.

We've asked some questions there and it might be worthwhile. I'd like to suggest that we do follow up because, in chatting briefly to Mr. Colwell he was saying, yes, we did ask about the other avenues to reach people. I was thinking, particularly, women's groups, and you've mentioned a lot of other groups - the ethnic community, the immigrant community - people who should be invited to step forward and play a role.

I think that if we could, when the House is no longer sitting, when we get through this session, maybe set something up for January to do a follow-up and see if any of those publications or organizations had been contacted. That was our intention from the earlier meetings.

MR. COLWELL: Just for Mr. Preyra's information, we were very concerned about this process when I was chairman of the committee. It was a very serious concern - there were issues raised about were the ads effective, number one, to attract people to apply because we had a very limited number of applicants. I think only 200-plus applicants for all the positions that were on the boards. Where they advertised, how they advertised, all that information was looked at. We asked Communications Nova Scotia to bring some of the people in that are expert in this field to redesign the ads, suggest where we may advertise, ways to advertise to get to more and more people. I'm not sure if that has been effective or not, but they definitely did an excellent job on reworking the ads.

You made a good point though about some of the publications. I don't know if they got in to those or not because after that, I was no longer on the committee. I would suggest, perhaps, we get a list of publications from the Clerk's Office to see what publications they are in and give it to the members and if there are some they aren't in, the intention was before that anything we missed, we put them in there - there was no question about that, it wasn't an issue. The issue was we wanted as many people as we could get to apply.

For whatever reason, we've been a dismal failure in the past. In some cases, where you're talking about equality and different areas, if people don't apply, you can't meet the equality goals of this committee and, indeed, of government. We have to look at this in more detail, so I'd be personally interested in seeing where all the ads were placed, and we had a major discussion on that with the intention of not eliminating anybody from the ad, except expanding that to a point where we could afford to do it because there were some issues about that as well. But that wasn't the main issue, the main issue was to make sure we got it out to as many people as we could. So if you have ideas, if anyone has ideas about publication, I'm sure that it's not an issue of putting it in those publications.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Communications Nova Scotia was very open to ideas and even the design of the ads, if I recall, were tried to be changed to be more attractive than that big, kind of pale page. When you opened it in The ChronicleHerald, people would just turn the page. It wasn't that attractive to stop and look at, especially for those who may not have understood it at the time.

It has been some time since the subcommittee has actually met and there may be a need, in the near future, to have some further discussion on that as well.

Ms. Massey, did you have another comment there before we move on?

MS. MASSEY: Well definitely I would - I don't know if we need a motion, but we should have the subcommittee get back together again; because I think this morning - I don't know if I was aware of the fact that these, indeed, do not need to be advertised, and I'll say I'm very remiss if that's gotten by me, because of all the time we've spent on that. So I think that is something the subcommittee could look at and maybe put something forward to the government.

Also, some of the applicants who you see here this morning in Question No. 9, it will list exactly what newspapers the ad appeared in, but in other applicants it doesn't and then in some it says, unknown. We've got a whole mishmash, we still have to straighten that up.

We've done a lot of work in this committee in getting some of the stuff straightened up so I think we can work on that.

[9:45 a.m.]

We do need an update on the number of applicants who have come through and on the diversity of those applicants. I do believe that the last update we had, we really hadn't moved forward a whole lot. I was surprised, and I believe the committee members . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The numbers were quite low, actually, when it came back.

MS. MASSEY: Yes, we really didn't make much of an impact, so there's still a lot of work too, obviously.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Perhaps we could put subcommittee on next month's agenda for some discussion after some of the other information that's on there to come out and then we can go from there. Mr. Glavine.

MR. GLAVINE: Yes, just to add, I guess, a little bit of a reflective comment; this was a committee that I was on for three years and at the time when I joined, I think the majority of the committee were new members. We all recognized that Executive Council and government has obviously the control here, in the names that are brought forward. But, at the same time, we were pretty discontent with many of the things that have been brought to the surface this morning once again - the gender equity, diversity, all of these areas don't seem to be as pronounced as we would like to see if you go through this book.

I can't help but also reflect on the fact that there's a lot of, again, missing information here. Some of the processing seems to be really pretty sloppy, to be kind. So I think there's

some need here for review of this process. I mean, one quick little thing that's easy to take care of, in terms of when a person applied, why not have the date of application? It may be 12 months ago or 16, because there was just no opening and so on that came forward. Those are little things that I think can make the work of this committee at least a little bit more open and transparent in the process.

The other thing I must say, which I really do find disconcerting, having looked at about at least school board makeup across the province, it was very good to see through the electoral process that there was, indeed, some changes in all the boards across the province. I take this page right here, on the health authorities, and there's not a single change. How do we get new ideas and new views and so on? I think the very need of terms and so forth on some of these could also be part of that process. So just a couple of comments I wanted to add.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for those. Again, it comes back to - I think, maybe there's a meeting that has to be held just for some of the changes or simple ideas like form changes and dates and so on, that could come out and then be sent back to Executive Council for their review. Mr. Colwell, a comment and then we'd like to move on.

MR. COLWELL: A last comment, I think we've been dancing around this problem for a long time, inaccurate information and all of these other things. I can remind the members here we can reject anyone that we want to reject. Perhaps we should start rejecting people who don't meet all of the proper criteria, send a message to government. I think probably after we have rejected half a dozen people that the information will come in correctly. Whoever is filling out this information is not doing it properly. Whoever that was will probably be replaced or some disciplinary action taken so when the information comes forward it will be straightforward and all of the criteria properly addressed. I would suggest to the members if they don't like what they see they reject the people on the basis of incomplete information and we move this forward. Otherwise it's going to be like this for the next 10 years.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess that's what I was trying to get at earlier, the committee's job is to either accept based on the information provided and/or reject and you have that option. Again there's a lot that we don't know and if that's the committee's wish then the committee has the option to make such decisions. Having said that we'll move on and we're back at District Health Authority 9, the Capital District.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Board of the College of Optometrists.

Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I would move that Keith R. Ayling and Sheila M. Hoeg be board members of the Board of the College of Optometrists.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I would move that Dr. Marco Chiarot, Jane Gillis, and Ronald Surette be board members of the Nova Scotia Prescription Monitoring Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I move that Sean Paul Beddell be a board member of the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre and Nova Scotia Hospital.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Mr. D'Entremont, please. Department of Justice is where we're currently at, Humans Rights Commission, and we'll call on you to perhaps move the motion.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, for the Human Rights Commission I would like to move the names of Ernest Bolivar as Chair and Commissioner, Prem Dhir as Commissioner, Sister Dorothy Moore as Commissioner and Brad Parks as Commissioner.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I would move Doug Carver as a member of the Municipality of East Hants RCMP Advisory Board, Madaline Libbus as a member of the Municipality of Richmond RCMP Advisory Board, D. Lloyd Zinck as a member of the

Municipality of West Hants RCMP Advisory Board, Colin Curleigh as a member of the Town of Parrsboro RCMP Advisory Board, and Gary Cornish as a member of the Town of Pictou RCMP Advisory Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Mr. D'Entremont.

MR. D'ENTREMONT: Mr. Chairman, of the Peggy's Cove Commission, I move the name of Marcy Graves as a member .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

That concludes the appointments for the ABCs and the agenda for this morning. Thank you very much. Our next meeting is November 25^th at 9:00 a.m.

[The committee adjourned at 9:52 a.m.]