HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. David Wilson, Glace Bay (Chairman)

Hon. David Morse

Hon. Christopher d'Entremont

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Percy Paris

Mr. Michel Samson

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Ms. Joan Massey was replaced by Mr. Graham Steele.]

[Mr. Michel Samson was replaced by Mr. Manning MacDonald.]

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MAY 27, 2008

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

8:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I call the meeting to order. We can do it in one of two ways. I think, if you don't mind, we'll just leave the correspondence until the end of the meeting, so we can just proceed with the agencies, boards and commissions if that's all right by everybody. This should be a fairly brief meeting as long as everyone behaves and I'm sure they will. (Interruptions) I just happened to be looking your way, that's all. I looked that way first and then I looked that way. Let's begin then with the agencies (Interruption) Pardon me? Oh, sorry, yes, the introduction of members.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, let's start. The Department of Community Services, Children and Family Services Act Advisory Committee. Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: I so move Tanya Ellsworth as a member of the Children and Family Services Act Advisory Committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Economic Development, Waterfront Development Corporation Limited Board of Directors. Mr. Morse.

HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I so move Tina Battcock, Mary Ann McGrath and Bernard O'Rourke as directors of the Waterfront Development Corporation Limited Board of Directors.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Steele.

MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Members will recall that these same names came up last month and they were deferred to this month in order to permit the chairman to write a letter to the minister pointing out the coincidence that there is already a former Tory MLA on the board and these proposed names include another one and for a relatively small board dealing with a great deal of very valuable property on the Halifax waterfront, it just seemed like an odd coincidence that there should be two - not one but two - former Tory MLAs on the board.

However, the minister denies any consideration other than trying to put qualified women on the board and although I have to say that some question marks remain, we don't think - well, we think the point has been made and that this kind of thing is not necessarily going to be approved automatically in the future, but we will be supporting these nominations today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I just want to comment, as well, that it really doesn't matter, I don't think, in our opinion - or my opinion at least, I'll speak for myself - what board it is, or agency, or commission. If someone is partisan, politics should not matter in this case. This committee has worked very hard, and the subcommittee as well, to put forward applications to the public that were a little bit more attractive in trying to bring forward more people, specifically women were targeted to offset the gender imbalance. We've done that and, again, I think all the work has been done prior to coming to this table, so we're happy with what is before us today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: Of course, I have to respond to that and say that it has always been our position that a person's Party affiliation should be simply irrelevant. It shouldn't disqualify someone, it shouldn't qualify them. It's hard to imagine many people saying with a straight face that of all the people in Nova Scotia, if Mary Ann McGrath were not a former Tory MLA, that her name would have come to the top as one of the very best, qualified people in the whole province to sit on a board dealing with the very valuable waterfront property. Nevertheless, there it is.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we get to the question, we did receive correspondence back from the minister on this. Regular members of the committee were provided with that correspondence.

Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Education, Western Counties Library Board.

MR. PORTER: I so move Gary Archibald as a member of the Western Counties Library Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Health, Advisory Commission on AIDS.

MR. MORSE: I so move William Hart and Bruce Moore as members of the Advisory Commission on AIDS.

MR. STEELE: Perhaps we could move all of the Department of Health ones en bloc, just to move things along.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excellent suggestion.

MR. MORSE: I would also move John Doyle as a member of the Nova Scotia College of Chiropractors; Maureen Summers as a member of the Nova Scotia Health Research Foundation; Fred Beaton as a member of the College of Licensed Practical Nurses Board; Tom Mahaffey as a councillor for the Nova Scotia Council of the College of Pharmacists; and Lillian Berry as a member of the Nova Scotia Prescription Monitoring Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, Board of Registration of Embalmers and Funeral Directors. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, for the Board of Registration of Embalmers and Funeral Directors, I so move Dennis Haverstock as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: Members will recall that last month the same name for the same board came forward and the matter was deferred in order to give the chairman an opportunity to write to the minister seeking an explanation about why there were no women on the board and why at least one known female applicant was not being put forward.

Members will recall that I'm aware of a resident in my constituency who owns a funeral home in my constituency, a very capable and energetic young woman who is highly regarded in the profession. She's tried to get on this board and has had no reply, no success, no explanation about why she's not being put forward. If there are vacancies on the board, and the board currently has no women on it, we were asking the minister if he could provide some explanation for why names were being put forward in those circumstances that didn't include any women, and to my knowledge we haven't received a reply. So I would propose that this nomination be deferred.

I want to emphasize and emphasize again that this is no reflection on Mr. Haverstock in the least. What it is, it's simply a desire on our part to seek an explanation from the minister. Since we've already deferred it once to seek an explanation, which we haven't received, I think it's incumbent on us to defer this until we do get an answer from the minister.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we did write. On May 6^th, the committee wrote a letter - myself as chairman - to the Honourable Jamie Muir as Minister of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations. We have not received a reply.

MR. STEELE: I move deferral.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, the motion on the - wait now, I have one motion on the floor already. So the motion, first, is to approve the name of Dennis . . .

MR. GORDON HEBB: The motion to defer would override that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion to defer will override that.

So the motion is to defer this appointment until the next meeting of the committee. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, I so move Mary Elizabeth Chisholm, Patricia LeBlanc, Jennie Orlando, and Doreen Paris as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: Mr. Chairman, I believe three of these - the first, second and fourth - are reappointments. I think that's correct. I just wanted to make a point about the third one, Jennie Orlando. I do note there's nothing in the book, there's no resumé, no information about Ms. Orlando, about her background, which leaves committee members in a bit of a quandary. How do we approve somebody about whom we know nothing?

I'm in a bind here because it just so happens I do know her a little bit, personally. She does live in my constituency and, knowing her background, I know she's well qualified for this. On the other hand, I think the committee needs to be clear to the Executive Council that if we're being asked to approve names, we have to have some information about who the person is, what their background is.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm of the understanding, after checking with the clerk, after going through these appointments in the book - I don't know if you have to provide a full resumé or CV because of the fact that these are below the $100 mark in remuneration.

MR. HEBB: The remuneration level concerns whether or not the detailed CV is made public after the appointment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Whether or not that means it's in this booklet or not, I'm not sure what that . . .

MR. HEBB: That has nothing to do with the question of whether it's in the book.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I did note - this is not directly to do with what you're talking about, Mr. Steele - that because of other subjects that have been raised in the past, I did note that one of the applicants stated that she had been a past candidate for a political Party twice in Nova Scotia and a campaign manager. I just note that, saying it struck me as rather funny that it was there and we were dealing with - I think it was Mary Elizabeth Chisholm who very proudly listed in her resumé that she had been a past candidate but did not name the Party, I should say. It stated that she was actively involved in politics. I only mentioned it in connection with other discussions that we've had during this committee.

On this one in particular, I do not know why the full resumés are not included with this kit. I think the clerk had assumed the same thing, that they weren't included because of the mention - it specifically mentioned about the $100 remuneration but as counsel has said, that has nothing to do with whether or not they're made public. So perhaps we can check - sorry, yes.

[8:15 a.m.]

MR. HEBB: It has to do with whether or not they're made public but it has nothing to do with whether they're in there.

MR. MORSE: A suggestion. I do not pretend to know Jennie Orlando, or at least I do not recognize her name, but based on Mr. Steele's description of her and the fact that somebody thought she was worthy to come forward today, I would suggest maybe we accept her nomination today but write the Executive Council back and urge them in the future to make sure there's some qualifying information for every candidate, if that was acceptable to the committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I should note, if you look under the Standing Committee on Human Resources Guidelines, it does say that if the remuneration ". . . is $100 or more per day, a current resume or CV of the applicant must be attached to this form!" Then it goes on to say the per diem is not $100 or more per day. Now, I don't know whether that says . . .

MR. HEBB: I thought the $100 only related, because it does relate to whether the - okay, I didn't know what the . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know whether that means - but to me anyway . . .

MR. HEBB: . . . because it does relate to whether the resumé is disclosed. If the remuneration is $100 or more it's disclosed; if they're appointed, it's not disclosed if it's less.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Steele, I think your point is that it would be nice if we had some information to base our decisions on.

MR. STEELE: That's the point exactly. I do think what Mr. Morse has suggested is probably the right way of proceeding. Now, I'm not a permanent member of the committee, but I think the committee has an interest in the future in making sure the information is complete so that there's some basis on which to vote for or against.

The other point you made, Mr. Chairman, about Ms. Chisholm's political involvement - now, apparently you know more than I do.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Only what's in the book, Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: I have no idea what Party she belonged to, but again, our point is simply that it should be irrelevant. It shouldn't qualify someone or disqualify someone. I know you're not suggesting that she's there because of her political affiliation . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Absolutely not.

MR. STEELE: That's our point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The only thing I was pointing out is that some people are very proud of the fact of saying that they're involved politically and they list it in their resumés.

MR. STEELE: Not proud enough to say which Party it was. (Laughter)

MR. CHAIRMAN: They don't hide it. Anyway, we'll leave it at that, Mr. Steele.

MR. STEELE: Thank you. I think I'll agree with the course suggested by Mr. Morse.

MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, are we all agreed on that? I don't think we require a motion or anything, do we?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): You didn't vote on it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Morse, let's go over that again, please. Do you want to . . .

MR. MORSE: I would suggest that based on, first of all, the fact that the minister seemed to be comfortable bringing Ms. Orlando's name forward and also because of the personal knowledge that Mr. Steele has of her, that we accept her nomination today, but that we do write the Executive Council and ask that in future they please provide some documentation. Really, this is a very formal process and there should be some evidence as to why the committee accepts a candidate. We have just deferred voting on somebody again who, I understand, would make an excellent member of a committee or a board because we did not get an answer which was basically as to process. So I think in future we should be consistent with all applicants.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your motion, then, is to approve the four people who are there, but also to write to the Executive Council. Is that clear?

Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

I'll just move on. We have one item of correspondence that was received from the chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. I don't know, you should have been provided with this documentation. It's a request from the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedures that the Nova Scotia Association of Health Organizations, that their request to be heard before a committee be referred to this committee, and that comes from Maureen MacDonald, the chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Is there any discussion on this, anything that anybody can add? I'm not sure if this is the right place to be dealing with these issues in terms of whether or not - normally, it's my understanding anyway, health issues are dealt with at the Community Services Committee. Now, whether or not (Interruption) Well, I know there's no committee on health, but anyway, having said that, on a routine basis they're dealt with at the Community Services Committee, I think. Are they?

Mr. Steele, do you have any - I'm not sure where to go with this. You know, it is human resources and this is a Human Resources Committee. If the committee wants to have the NSAHO here then that's your decision, but I'm not sure if this is the right place.

MR. STEELE: I know the Public Accounts Committee felt that was not the right place for this topic because it was forward-looking - however important it is, it's forward-looking - and it seemed the logical place to send it was here, there was no other place. But it really is, as you say, Mr. Chairman, up to this committee to decide whether it's felt that this is, first of all, within the mandate of the committee and, second of all, whether it's a priority to schedule it here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, just for the information of the members, we do have a list that has been waiting for some time to appear before this committee with about one - there are about seven presenters who are looking to appear and, you know, because of our schedule, which is the last item to be dealt with, it's summertime, and we only usually meet to deal with agencies, boards and commissions. So the next meeting that we would have a presenter here would be sometime in late September and whether or not, you know - I don't think it would be fair to the others to bump NSAHO above them, not that I can see for any reason. Mr. Parker.

MR. CHARLES PARKER: I was going to ask, this request from the NSAHO, are they requesting that they appear before some committee? Like, did they come before the Public Accounts Committee asking to be heard?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't think so.

MR. PARKER: Where did their name . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know if anybody goes before the Public Accounts Committee asking to be heard.

MR. PARKER: How did their name come forward, is my question?

MR. CHAIRMAN: In this it's suggested by the chair of the Public Accounts Committee that we hear them, because I don't think the Public Accounts Committee felt that was the right place.

MR. PARKER: But had they been requesting the Public Accounts Committee, to appear, or was it just a suggestion of that committee?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: They were on one of our three Parties' lists and ended up being brought forward in a subcommittee meeting that I think I was at - I'm on the subcommittee that would have forwarded this off.

MR. PARKER: It's not their own request, they're not requesting it?

MR. PORTER: No, I don't believe - I'm not sure. It could have been on our list for all I know but, anyway, it was . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, with the approval of the committee then, I'll write back to Ms. MacDonald and explain to her our dilemma and perhaps she can find another location for NSAHO.

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

The next subject is our next meeting. The next meeting, then, would be, if we stick with our - I don't know, I've never been through a summertime on this committee. If anybody has, I'll allow you to guide me here, but it's my understanding that you don't meet - you only meet once a month, to deal with agencies, boards and commissions. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: That's right, and I would suggest that we do June, July and August, we do just that for ABCs only and come back in September with a list of witnesses to bring before the committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Those meetings, I'm to understand from the clerk, still have to be held on a Tuesday because of the procedure that's followed in notifying Cabinet and so on and so forth. So is there a good time or a bad time? So if you want to leave it at 9:00 a.m. on Tuesday, that means our next meeting would be Tuesday, June 24^th at 9:00 a.m.

Is it agreed?

Unless there's something else that - Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: I'm just wondering if in September then, do we have a witness lined up at this point, or should we be suggesting somebody that Darlene could be approaching?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There are none lined up at this point in time, but there are seven people on a waiting list and if you want the clerk to try to identify one of them to be the first in September, then - you have the list, I believe?

MR. PARKER: I do, right here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If you have a suggestion that maybe - I don't know if they're in order of how they've (Interruption) They're just in random order so . . .

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, if I may. It would seem to me that as we get closer to the time, maybe one of these will become more topical and perhaps we could identify one, perhaps in August.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker, if you want to throw one out now, then we'll . . .

MR. PARKER: Well, they're all worthy issues but I don't know. The Black Cultural Centre, from the Liberal caucus - perhaps that might be as good as any, would it?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, any Liberal choice is good with me, Mr. Parker. (Laughter)

Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

Then that will be our first contact. We'll try to arrange something there for the meeting in September. Should they not be available, we'll move on to somebody else on the list so that we will have somebody set for September.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Great. Any further business? Then the meeting is adjourned. Thank you everyone.

[The meeting adjourned at 8:26 a.m.]