HANSARD

and

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. Keith Colwell (Chairman)

Hon. Carolyn Bolivar-Getson

Mr. Alfred MacLeod

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

Ms. Diana Whalen

Mr. Leo Glavine

[Ms. Diana Whalen was replaced by Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay).]

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

WITNESSES

Department of Education

Mr. Darryl Youden

Senior Executive Director - Corporate Services

Ms. Mary Fedorchuk

Program Coordinator - English Program Services, P-12

Ms. Wendy Luciano

Supervisor - NS School Book Bureau

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MARCH 27, 2007

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Keith Colwell

MR. CHAIRMAN: The first thing we're going to do this morning is the appointments to the Agencies, Boards and Commissions and before we start that, I'm going to start with introductions around the table, and start at the far end.

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Clarrie MacKinnon, MLA for Pictou East. I have to apologize, I'm on both committees and I'm going to stay in this one for a few minutes and then go to the Resources Committee.

LEO GLAVINE: Leo Glavine, Kings West. I also am on both committees so we'll be back and forth a little bit this morning.

[ The other committee members introduced themselves. ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we're going to start off with the appointments to the Department of Community Services. Is it satisfactory to everybody that we move them in block, or do you want to go one at a time? Block - anybody have any objection to that?

Okay, let's start first with the Chair, so I would entertain a motion for that. Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you. I would move that Mr. Brian Tapper as the Chair of the Disabled Persons Commission. Do you want me to just continue with that entire block, then?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, just do the Chair and then the other ones.

1

MR. PORTER: Just going to do the Chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Thank you. I would move Mr. William Crawford as a member, Mr. Ralph Ferguson, Ms. Kimberley MacDonald, Ms. Marcie Shwery-Stanley, Ms. Jane Warren, Ms. Jenna-Leigh Wilson, as members of the Disabled Persons Commission.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next is the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre. Mr. Glavine.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: I would like to move Mr. Murray Salsman as a member of the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre.

HON. DAVID MORSE: I would like to second that and I think Leo and I would both say this man who lost his wife a few years ago was just an outstanding citizen. He is now devoting a lot of his time to raising funds for cancer and care for cancer patients.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next one is the Round Table on Early Childhood Development. Do I have a mover? Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to move Mrs. Ronda Bagnell and Ms. Jane Cawley as members of the Round Table on Early Childhood Development.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Finance, Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I would move Mr. Wayne Mason and Mr. Russell Hatton.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation. We will do the chairman first and then the others en bloc unless anyone . . .

MS. MASSEY: No, I would like to do them separately.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, no problem. Okay, let's start first with the chairman.

HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I so move Mr. Peter McCreath as Chairman of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the motion?

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, the official opposition has a real problem with this appointment. This appointment came about five years ago and everyone is aware of Mr. McCreath's political past and his various roles as Progressive Conservative politician, advisor, organizer and so on. The situation is that decisions that are made by the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation impact on the employees and we believe, or I believe, that the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation is not as employee friendly as it once was and we know that a number of communities have, for many years, been seeking to be linked into the corporate identity of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation.

What we are finding is that the corporation has been consolidating its corporate presence more and more instead of respecting the hard work and efforts of its employees by seeking to use them in an expanded corporate presence. Now we know that under Mr. McCreath's tenure that very high bonuses were paid to senior executives of the NSLC over recent years and Mr. McCreath has defended and endorsed those bonuses. Also, during his watch, there have been very large severance packages paid to a series of senior executives - unnecessarily, in some cases, and inexplicably. So there are a number of issues that we have in relationship to this particular position. There is always the attitude that the principle of arm's length has to be taken seriously and that means appointing objective, qualified people to adjudicate the Crown Corporation boards.

So we, as opposition, are opposed to this and I am also concerned on a personal level. There was an incident last week, for example, where a 19-year employee was overlooked for a promotion and the accusations are being made that it was a political situation. So we are concerned about this filtering down through the system. So having said that, my vote will be negative, as will the other members of the Official Opposition.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I certainly respect the comments of our colleague and friend, the member for Pictou East. I do agree that there has been some dramatic change in the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation over the last five years and change does not come without ruffling some feathers. Notwithstanding the comments made by our honourable colleague, I would suggest that this organization has made a transition from an antiquated one to a modern Crown Corporation during that time.

I can tell you that, as somebody who has sat around the Cabinet Table when proposals have come forward for funding prior to the budget, how heart-wrenching it is to sometimes not be able to approve them because there is just not enough resources on the table. The phenomenal improvement in the profit picture of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation has dramatically enhanced the Nova Scotia Government's ability and I would point out minority government's ability to fund these programs. I feel in a large part, that has been due to the leadership shown by the present chair, Mr. McCreath. In the interest of completing that evolution to a modern Crown Corporation and all of the benefits it brings to Nova Scotians by way of funding Health, Education, Community Services and other cherished government programs that I would urge members of this committee to give consideration to Mr. McCreath's candidacy for chair again.

MR. MACKINNON: One thing that I want to state emphatically from a personal perspective is that I know Mr. McCreath and I like Mr. McCreath and I respect much of what he has done over the years from the writing of a history book on Nova Scotia years ago with John Leefe. I watched this person in many aspects of his life and have a respect for him on that level.

However, having said that, I still want to reinforce that under his leadership, that there has in fact been considerable profit. We have to realize we are dealing with a monopoly on the market, for sure, but the gross waste of taxpayers' money in relationship to the high bonuses that have been paid and the severance packages that some people of a very short duration in their positions - they are there for only a matter of months and a severance package is being offered that is extremely high.

[9:15 a.m.]

As I mentioned, the situation that sometimes there is the appearance out there at the local liquor store level that if you have a membership card in a certain political Party it would enhance your chances and that is what's being alleged in one incident I was dealing with last week. I find that very hurtful when there may be a filtering down at that level.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the member for Pictou East's personal comments about Mr. McCreath in that he has an appreciation for what he brings to the province. Just to put this into perspective, relative to my earlier comments, I was not anticipating having to defend Mr. McCreath's record as chair of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, but I would like to put it in this context. I believe that the increase in the profitability during his tenure as chair has been somewhere in the vicinity of $50 million and if we were to take that off the table today in our budget - just to allow Nova Scotians to relate to the importance of what has been accomplished financially on the Liquor Corporation - that would be the equivalent of, say, the Department of Agriculture.

To make it a more personal connection, I don't there are any of us in this room that have not had a loved one who has had to go to a nursing home and that's roughly the cost of enhancing the coverage of nursing home care in Nova Scotia, in other words, covering all the health care costs. If you were to take that $50 million off the table, I'm not saying that that would necessarily be the cut, but I think that makes it real for Nova Scotians as to just how important it is to have enhanced the profitability of the corporation and again I have every respect for our colleagues' comments and his right for his opinion. I just want to try to also try to put it in perspective as I encourage others who have perhaps not already made up their mind on the committee to consider his candidacy to be Chair again. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to extend this vote but I just want to reinforce the principle of arm's-length and reiterate the point that most people, many people, speculate that the initial appointment five years ago was a political appointment and most people would speculate today that the reappointment is again a political reappointment. That is the feeling that I'm getting from caucus members and others.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other comments?

MR. GLAVINE: I would just go on the record to say that we haven't caucused this particular appointment and without one of the key members of our regular standing committee here today, I would ask for a delay in the appointment of Mr. MacCreath.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So do we make that a motion?

MR. GLAVINE: I would move that and make it a motion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So it has been moved and seconded that this be put over until the next regular meeting of our committee.

MR. PORTER: I'd like to make a comment and I think certainly we'll vote with the motion but I don't know how many times in this committee we've sat here and gone through these appointments. I'm certain from reading through some of them, they have been very blatant, you know, partisan to one side or the other. I guess I would like to think that these folks have gone through a process whereby they've made it here, we would trust that all of the appointments we make and all of these people are on these committees and boards and agencies for the right reasons and doing a fine job. So I don't think - and I want to be very clear - that I don't think it any partisan and I think all of our partisans would be represented here, or swayed one way or the other when it comes to making good decisions for the people of this province.

MR. CHAIRMAN; Could I possibly make a suggestion, and it is just a suggestion, perhaps we could delay all the appointments on this board so we don't identify one individual, if that would be - could you amend your motion to say that?

MR. GLAVINE: I would so move, Mr. Chairman, that all of the appointments to the Liquor Commission be deferred until the next meeting. It has been seconded, thank you.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, under the comments on that as well is that when you look at these appointments, we are dealing with an organization that is very, very gender imbalanced. We have one female appointment on that entire board, I believe, who has gone through this committee. Is that correct? That is an understanding that I have and here we are again, looking at four male appointments to the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In that top, would you like us to address a letter to the minister responsible, to see if consideration could be given forwarding to bringing more women forward, or visible minorities or whatever?

MR. MACKINNON: I really believe that should be done because when you look at a board of the significance of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation and there is one female representative on it - I think we try for gender balance, don't we?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's deal with the initial motion first, to delay this for one month, all the four potential appointments. It has been moved and seconded. Any further discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Now on the topic of gender equality, would you like to make that a motion that we send a letter to the appropriate people, let's put it that way?

MR. MACKINNON: I would move that a letter be sent from this committee to the appropriate people, encouraging the appointment of more gender-balanced appointments to this and other boards.

MR. CHARLES PARKER: I'll second that.

CHAIRMAN: It has been moved and seconded. Any comments?

MR. MORSE: I would just like to go on record that Ms. Bolivar-Getson is quite aware of the gender balance on the board and she considered that, I know, when she brought forward these names.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: I would to comment, Mr. Chairman, that according to the records, 17 males applied and five females, so if maybe they could go back and look at those five females again to see if there is anyone who might be appropriate. It deserves a second look, I believe, for the various reasons discussed earlier and the gender imbalance that appears there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It has been moved and seconded that we put a letter forwarded - do you want to read that motion again?

MS. HENRY: Well, actually, I don't have the full motion but I will try to ad lib.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I will just recap it, if we can send a letter to the person responsible, the minister in this case, to see if we can get more gender balanced appointments to the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation in the future. Is that correct?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, I guess we better just deal with this corporation at this time rather than trying to put a plug in for other appointments.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Before we finish with this, I just have some comments I would like to make.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Moved and seconded, are there any more comments on this particular letter we are going to send?

Hearing none, would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Ms. Massey, you had other comments?

MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if we have ever discussed this at this committee, but for some reason when I was going through these on Saturday, something that struck me was the differences in the amount of what you want to call expenses paid, hours paid, travel expenses, the amount of meetings that different committees have throughout the year - there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason that I could figure out. For example, the Disabled Persons Commission, it appears that they meet 12 times per year and they get $48.50 per meeting; the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre meet once a month for two hours each meeting and they receive a $1,800 stipend; the Early Childhood Development Roundtable meet four to six times a year, travel expenses only; the Department of Finance Halifax Bridge Commission, $12,000 per year and I am not sure how many hours they spend on that; and the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, the chairman receives $1,000 a month, the members $600 a month, I believe, and expenses, there was conflicting information there, or it was $1,000 a month, I'm not sure.

I don't know how recently someone has looked at that from the government's point of view or the taxpayers' point of view or anybody's point of view. I often wonder, sometimes when you are looking through them, there doesn't seem to be any sensible description of the amount of hours that people actually do have to spend on these various boards and commissions. I am just assuming that many of them meet much more often or that the job is bigger, I really don't know. So I am just looking for some further information on that and perhaps when was the last time those money amounts were looked at? Does anybody else have any questions on that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any comments?

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I don't think it's a matter for the committee to deal with, I think it is a matter for the Internal Economy Board of the Legislature. I'm guessing that is the committee that would deal with it, I don't know, but it's more of a matter of the entire House than it is just of the committee, because the rates would be set. They haven't change since I have been here, I know that. It's not that long.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I agree with the comments of the member for Glace Bay and perhaps that would be a good suggestion. I would comment that during the transition years of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, I believe the Chair found himself more involved with the

actual administration than he actually wanted to be because of trying to bring about cultural change within the organization. I'm not sure that it's still the case today but I had the sense that he felt like he almost had a full-time job and I think he was getting paid something like $25,000 a year, so just to put it in perspective, and he would have had no reason to tell me this at the time, ever anticipating that we would be deliberating this decision here today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey, I don't know where we go with this because I don't know what the answer is. Probably some of this may be in legislation, I don't know. It could be that each department does it differently, I'm not sure.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I think, Mr. Chairman, that at one time, I can remember several years ago there was talk of striking a committee that would look at everything from, they were looking at committee structure and they were looking at pretty well overhauling legislative matters. I don't think that committee has ever been struck. That was several years ago that I recall and it's just in the back of my mind that they were looking at legislative reform. The committee structure and how much you're paid on the committees, I would say, would fall under their jurisdiction. Again, the only committee I can think of is that it may be the Internal Economy Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That would be perhaps, Mr. Wilson, because I wasn't, I missed some years in between there, that would be a matter for the Legislature rather than this committee I would think. It would have to be a legislative committee.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): And perhaps the Speaker's Office, I don't know.

MS. MASSEY: I was just wondering, Mr. Chairman, if you can find out through your position who actually sets those rates and then we could go from there. If we don't really know who's in charge, then we can't...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good idea.

MS. MASSEY: In your position maybe I would request that you find out who actually sets those rates and maybe it's different for different departments or, you know, honourable colleague, maybe it is the Internal Economy Board.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: With the committee's permission, what I would do is I would write to the Executive Council, I guess, probably, and just find out what the process is and how they determine remuneration and ask them to reply to us. I think that would be a good starting point and go from there. Any objection to that?

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I think probably you would be better off sending your letter to the Speaker's Office.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Speaker's Office.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we'll send it to the Speaker's Office. He doesn't make these appointments by the way.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): No, but he does, the Speaker, it is his House, he's the guy.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we'll send it to the Speaker and he'll send it on, but we'll send it to the Speaker. So no objections to that? We'll do that and just inquire as to how these are paid.

Okay, on further to the last group of appointments here, the Department of Community Services Disabled Persons Commission, we'll start with the chair and then move the rest en bloc. (Interruptions) Oh, it's in there twice, sorry about that. So we're finished with those. Okay, so now we'll go to our next, Nova Scotia School Book Bureau next. I know some of our members have to leave for the other committee. (Interruption) Yes, this committee is always set at this time so I don't know how come they've got today. Yes, it's not good.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I don't think committees should be meeting when the House is sitting..

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, that's a good point.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): They never used to.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, except for maybe these appointments because you can do the appointments in 10 minutes. After this meeting we'll make that motion. (Interruption)

MR. MORSE: We need to make the appointments but perhaps we could dispense with the presentation afterwards while the Legislature is anticipated to be in session.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We can reschedule. (Interruption) So after that you can make that motion. That's one I would support.

Okay, I want to bring the meeting to order again and I would ask our guests to introduce themselves and we'll go from there. Start anyway you want to do it.

[ Witnesses introduced themselves. ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: We would like to start with a presentation and then go through a series of questions. Today our questions are going to be different. As requested, we will divide the time up evenly amongst our members and each member will have the equal amount of time to speak.

MR. DARRYL YOUDEN: Mr. Chairman, did you wish for us to make a few opening remarks and provide you with some context?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. YOUDEN: Thank you for inviting us to appear before the Human Resources Committee this morning. Our hope would be to provide you with a better understanding of and appreciation for the role of the Book Bureau within the public school system in the province.

There is no mystery to what the Book Bureau does, the bureau and its eight employees provide a vital service to schools across the province. The Book Bureau is responsible for the processing and distribution of more than 300,000 textbooks, learning resources and other related products every year through its warehouse operations. This includes some 1,500 electronic orders, 6,000 directed purchase orders, 1,000 cash orders and more than 70 major distributions to the province's 438 schools. Its key objective is to make sure that all of those resources are made available to schools in the most cost-effective and timely manner possible. I'm confident in saying that the bureau does an admirable job in achieving that goal.

Our ability to bulk-purchase items dramatically reduces the overall cost of learning resources we buy, usually in the neighbourhood of 10 to 30 per cent from our primary suppliers. If I may, I'd like to talk briefly about how the Book Bureau does its job.

Funding to school boards is provided within the department's budget for the purchase of resources to a predetermined maximum. This is done through a credit allocation system which this year has been budgeted at $8.8 million. That allocation represents a dollar commitment for learning resources to support the curriculum, and the calculation is based on a per-student amount and the actual school board enrollments.

We use the buying power of our credit allocation system to further save money. Up to one half of each board's allocation is set aside for directed purchases by the Department of Education. That kind of buying power brings us substantial savings. Let me give you a recent example - this year, the department purchased 10,000 social studies textbooks for every Grade 8 student in the province. That directed purchase allowed us to buy an $85

textbook for just $40. There are many other examples of similar savings in the past year, including a math essentials text for junior high and a new Grade 5 math textbook.

The directed purchase program involves the identification of common learning resources for each student enrolled in a specific course or grade level province wide. Our programs division manages the selection process and the bureau oversees the tendering, ordering, receiving and distribution of those materials.

In 2000-01, the Auditor General reviewed the operation of the bureau and confirmed that the program achieves substantial savings through purchasing learning resources in bulk. The remaining 50 per cent of the credit allocation for each school board can be accessed by individual schools and boards to make purchases of learning resources in support of board and school priorities. There is a small portion of the allocation that can be used to buy eligible learning resources not included on our authorized learning resources list. Those decisions are made at the discretion and authorization of the local school principal.

The bureau's web-based ordering system has also created efficiencies in the ordering of authorized learning resources. It has eliminated much of the paperwork and reduced the time it takes to process orders and significantly improve the service to our schools across the province.

Some of you may have had the opportunity to hear of our authorized learning resources list (ALR) which I'll refer to as the list. Let me just take a moment and explain what the authorized list is about. There are over 7,000 titles currently on the authorized list, all of which have been approved for use to support Nova Scotia curriculum. These resources undergo a rigorous evaluation to ensure they are free of bias, they are appropriate for the grade level, and that they fit the curriculum we are teaching our students. We are constantly refreshing the list, replacing outdated or out of print titles with new resources that are either more relevant or will better support new curriculum.

In addition, the bureau also supports the distribution of materials for other partners such as Health Promotion, Canadian Heritage and any other materials that we may be approached by an education partner on to rely upon our distribution channels to schools.

So, ladies and gentlemen, I hope I have given you some context around what the Book Bureau does and what we're about and we would welcome your questions. At the same time, let me extend the regrets of our Deputy Minister who had a commitment today that prevented him from being here but certainly we'd be pleased to address your questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll start with Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you. It was a quick little presentation - anyway, the information you provided us was very interesting also. I do have some questions. The

information that was given us that talks about Learning For Life, and I guess there were some recommendations made during the process but I'm not sure when the timelines for all that is? Was it around 2005 that the Learning for Life document came out?

MS. MARY FEDORCHUK: Yes, well, we've had Learning for Life I and Learning for Life II, so we've been referencing Learning for Life for three years now. This is the most recent document.

MS. MASSEY: So when I see recommendations in here that refer to Learning for Life and you're trying to move those through the system as money comes in to put forward the recommendations. Okay, all right.

One of the things in there was, I guess, the wish or the recommendation to put one million more books in the classrooms to support curriculum but I'm not sure what the date, by what date kind of thing, or how far along are you on that? That's one of my questions.

MS. FEDORCHUK: That allocation is annually so we have, since 2002, put one million books in classrooms. Many of them identified by the level of literacy, so Active Young Readers, for example, Primary to Grade 3, and then we went to Grade 4 to 6, Grade 7 to 9. Last year, we talked about Grade 10 and we talked about books particularly to promote literacy at Grade 10. This year we're working on Grade 11, so you see that our strategy has been, by grade or by a number of grades, to put these textbooks into classrooms.

The last time I did sort of a random count of this was in 2005-2006 and, in fact, it was one million books, probably exceeded one million books, and at that time, 2005-2006, I think the credit allocation was $8.3 million, but I'd have to check with my colleague about that, millions of dollars, to provide those millions of books.

MS. MASSEY: So in closing the gap, which is in the Learning for Life document also, that's what you were talking about. What I was reading here - you were near completing Grade 7 so now you have moved on to the Grade 10? You've finished the junior high altogether?

MS. FEDORCHUK: We've finished junior high. Last year, we did Grades 9 and 10 and this year we're working on Grade 11.

MS. MASSEY: So you've finished Grades 9 and 10 and you're on Grade 11?

MS. FEDORCHUK: Yes, for this new fiscal year it'll be Grade 11.

MS. MASSEY: I'm not sure on - I know you talked about books and you touched on electronics but I'm not sure - does that include the computer itself or its just the software you're talking about?

MS. FEDORCHUK: The credit allocation is for books. It would include what we call manipulatives and that is items that young people can use in mathematics, for example, to learn a particular operation, number operation, but it does not include software - we have a different allocation for that - or hardware.

MR. YOUDEN: Just for clarity, it does not include software purchases, your Word Perfect or whatever the case may be, what you are talking about. Those would be dealt with outside of the credit allocation.

MS. MASSEY: Just to go back to the Grade 7 allocation, because when I was reading through this that said that was where you felt the oldest resources resided. So has that totally - you know you're happy with what's there or much more needs to be done? I'd like a general feeling on that.

MS. FEDORCHUK: We would like more and what we intend on doing is going back with additional supplementary resources. So it's a difficult question to answer because if you asked me for one specific area, for example mathematics or social studies, I would say, do you know what, we've got the basics out there, but in other areas we do not. So there's always more work to be done.

MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, do you know how much time I have?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, until 10:47 a.m.

MS. MASSEY: I guess what I would like to talk about is maybe your feelings on - I know the province allocates a certain amount of money and it's per student. I know we're not at the high end per student because Ontario - I think it's $75 in elementary and $100 in secondary, but New Brunswick is down at $31 and I'm not sure how recent those figures are. They were just in this documentation that we were given, but I believe ours is around $50 per student but then, you see, you hold back a chunk of that. Half of that is held back to make these huge bulk purchases. So I understand that part of the equation.

One of the things I think is a problem- and it's not so much a problem for the have-schools and the have-communities but for the have-not-schools and the have-not-communities- is fundraising at the school level, especially to put resources in the libraries, and as a parent who has done a lot of fundraising and seen what communities that are really great at fundraising and have the money in their communities can do. I guess there's an inequity in the system right now in our schools. It's specifically in our community school libraries. I mean I've seen some libraries that just wipe the other ones off the map and a lot of that is due to the fundraising done in that community. So how do we address that kind of issue where communities are going out and fundraising and they're upping the resources that they have as compared to the communities that can't afford to do that?

MR. YOUDEN: Well, maybe I'll just start and then I'll refer it. Just to make reference, you touched on the issue of what our allocation is in Nova Scotia and just to clarify, it's actually not $50. It was $61.68 last year. For this year, we're just finalizing the enrollment counts as we speak and we'll be finalizing that over the next 10 days or so. We anticipate that where it's going to fall out is probably about what it was last year when the final numbers do come in. So that's where we stand.

The school boards, in providing their allocations to schools, of course, ensure equity in how they distribute that across their schools. So the issue that you're referring to with respect to fundraising is above and beyond sort of the basic that's provided through the system and I guess the only comment I would make is it's very difficult to- certain communities have a much stronger base to provide extra support to the schools than other communities and it's difficult to counter that.

MS. MASSEY: And I guess you can look at it the other way and say, you know, if a community can fundraise and put extra resources in their library, then when it comes time for the principal, or whoever goes in and says here are the resources we have and here's what we need, those extra resources are taken into the equation. I've heard that from parents too that, you know, if we fundraise and we buy X number of computers and we buy X amount of books, is the money going to be held back from us, are we're not going to get our share of the allocation because we have fundraised? So there's a flip side to that fundraising thing. too. You're shaking your head no, that doesn't happen?

MR. YOUDEN: Well, for clarity, on the issue of a clawback, whether it's at the department level or at the school board level, there is a very strong commitment to equity in providing for the core services and what you're referring to with respect to fundraising, that would apply to sports. You know there are so many issues that that applies to and a community does have the ability to provide more, but whether it's a school principal, or a school board, or the department, that commitment to equity that we provide services equally across the province is 100 per cent and that does not involve a clawback because a community brings in extra resources, by any means.

MS. MASSEY: So the allocation per student, it has increased? I was reading in here it hasn't increased in several years. The figure in here says 50 and you're saying it's 61, so it must have increased since this was written.

MR. YOUDEN: I'll just read to you, I'll just go from 2003-04 forward. Our per student allocation in 2003-04 was $50.40; it went to $51.20 in 2004-05; in 2005-06 it took a rather large jump to $59.27; and then in 2006-07 it went to $61.68. For 2007-08, we know that our total dollar allocation is $8.8 million, but we're just finalizing the student counts. I can tell you that it is going to be approximately what it was last year; the changes in the numbers shouldn't be too dramatic.

MS. MASSEY: That's great, thanks.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, your time has expired. Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I thank these folks for coming this morning, it's good to have you here. Just a few questions. Who decides - it wasn't really clear - on how the textbooks actually get on the authorized resource list? Is there a committee within your group somewhere?

MS. FEDORCHUK: There's quite a rigorous process to identify appropriate resources to support the curriculum from Primary to Grade 12. Basically what happens is, the Department of Education will go to a call to publishers requesting submissions around Grade 5 science - we want a Grade 5 science textbook. We go to tender and make selections for the most appropriate resource for that Grade 5 science textbook.

Who decides? We, in conjunction with our colleagues in the boards decide, look, we have to do something about Grade 5 science textbooks, there aren't any, there haven't been any in 10 years, we have to have support for teachers to develop and implement this curriculum and so science is on the agenda for this year.

Annually, the department, with colleagues in the boards make decisions about what areas we are going to identify as directed purchases and then boards themselves make decisions about their part of the allocation.

The authorized learning resources list is an attempt to provide the most updated resources, the best resources, high quality resources for school boards and schools to make selections from. We have a process within the department where every week, a group of individuals gets together to do a bias evaluation on the new resources coming in and then to make recommendations of those resources based, not just on bias, but also based on appropriate curriculum fit. So, it's an ongoing process within the department and in many ways it is extremely onerous because it takes up a lot of staff time to review books. We go through hundreds and hundreds of resources from Primary to Grade 12 annually.

MR. PORTER: That's a lot of work to go through, obviously. Would there be changes? You used your Grade 5 science book example. If you were replacing a Grade 5 science book, would they all be replaced in very school in one year, all at the same time?

MS. FEDORCHUK: Yes.

MR. PORTER: On that, I'm kind of curious - would there be more call for any particular grade level? Would the higher grade levels, as you get into high school, would there be a higher percentage of those types of books being allotted as opposed to maybe the Primary, Grade 1 or that kind of curriculum?

MS. FEDORCHUK: A good question. What we try to do is make sure that we identity resources in P to Grade 3, Grades 4 to 6, Grades 7 to 9 and Grades 10 to 12. I'm not suggesting at all that these are equivalent dollar expenditures, but rather by need. We would not find a year where nothing would go out to high school, for example.

MR. PORTER: How often would that curriculum change? If you bought Grade 5 science books this year, for example, for all the schools in the province, would you anticipate that it would be maybe five years before you did that again, or is it too hard to judge it?

MS. FEDORCHUK: It would be great if it were five, we say it's seven, but the reality is sometimes it's 10 or more years before we can come back.

MR. PORTER: We talked a little bit about technology and I know you said the software and the hardware comes from a different budget or a different group. I know that there's a lot of interactive kind of learning in some of the schools, so that has nothing to do with this? Do you anticipate that becoming part of the IT portion of it, because its not just about the software. It's actually a physical learning type of program?

MR. YOUDEN: Perhaps I should have explained that more clearly. What is contained within what we are talking about today within the Book Bureau is learning resources. What I was trying to distinguish is that schools purchase software for a whole host of reasons which are more basic - your Microsoft products, et cetera - which wouldn't go through this funding envelope. However, if it's truly a learning resource and it is strongly curriculum related, then it would be addressed through this. It just happens to be learning material in electronic format, as opposed to software.

MR. PORTER: Maybe just another question. What other organizations do you support? I'm assuming it's not just schools, you talked maybe about a couple there but I would assume there are quite a few probably that would come to you.

MR. YOUDEN: In my opening remarks, I alluded that the Book Bureau does have a distribution method which is very positive in terms of getting things cheaply to our schools. The Book Bureau serves as a breakpoint for large orders and then we distribute them to the schools, and when you consider that there are 438 schools in the province, many of which are not located in easy-to-ship-to locations. So that distribution channel is positive if Health Promotion or any initiative that can be happening either from government or from other areas, we can use that distribution system and are very happy to co-operate and assist them in doing that.

The other thing that other organizations - taking your question a little more broadly - we also provide support with text materials for students as an example, who are in - I won't say long-term care, but longer-term care at the IWK. If a student happens to be in a hospital circumstance for, I believe it's 10 days, if I remember correctly, then effectively the

educational support kicks in. We provide those materials in allotments to the IWK. We also support First Nations bands, there is roughly 1,000 students attending band schools in the province currently and we provide resources through the Book Bureau. For that population, it would be very uneconomical to support the purchasing and benefit that we can bring them, so it's just something that is co-operative and helpful to do.

As long as it was not in any way negatively impacting upon the public school system, then we're more than pleased to do what we can.

MR. PORTER: So I as, let's say, a Rotarian in Windsor could put an order in and say we wanted to purchase some books as a group, we could go through the Book Bureau for that?

MR. YOUDEN: The Rotary is probably a good example where there is a common interest. When there are programs wanting to access our schools, we have made our distribution channel available to support that, such as Health Promotion reaching out with healthy lifestyle issues to students and schools. We also have purchases over the counter cash sales, we sell approximately $220,000 a year, it goes up and down, of over the counter sales. Those over the counter sales tend to support parents; you have home schooling parents; you have parents who are maybe purchasing additional materials; you have teachers who maybe want to supplement what they have, so those things are occurring; private schools purchase through the Book Bureau. We're passing on our buying power and our operation to benefit the entirety of those groups, but they're of an educational flavour. We haven't entertained opening the doors to just anybody and everybody who might want to purchase a published document because that could negatively impact.

MR. PORTER: And time consuming as well.

MR. YOUDEN: Time consuming and you know, you have to balance whether or not it has a negative impact on what we are there to do. So, we're looking for complementary purposes to the public school system or even to benefit education more broadly to private schools, First Nations bands, but it's about public education.

MR. PORTER: So the orders come in, what's the turnaround time?

MS. LUCIANO: The orders that come in online, I would say four to six weeks is the turnaround time. We order four times a year; we order in bulk because there is cost savings in ordering in bulk and shipping to one location.

MR. PORTER: Certainly that would make sense, I guess, and that goes back to possibly my first question about are you replacing all of the Grade 5 books in all of the schools. You would need that quantity anyway, I guess.

MS. LUCIANO: Yes, and with the directed purchase, as the tendering process finishes on those, then they are ordered and they, as well, would come in anywhere between four weeks and six weeks.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired, Mr. Porter.

Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I am at somewhat of a disadvantage that I am a substitute on the committee so I haven't had access to the previous material but your presentation was quite interesting and you seem like friendly people. We ran into each other on the elevator.

MR. YOUDEN: That we did. (Laughter)

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I guess we take it for granted sometimes that if you have schools, you have books and you have someone to buy them, purchase them, distribute them and make sure that every student in this province has one. It's not always the case. I have run into various cases back in my riding in Glace Bay where I have had complaints from parents in the past that their students were sharing books in school or using textbooks that were pretty well outdated. I am wondering - and I am not looking to blame anybody - but I am looking for where to place the responsibility of that happening. Would it be the book bureau or would it be through the district regional school board at that level?

MR. YOUDEN: I guess I would echo your comment. It is not a question of blame. There can be situations where there are problems with access. It is a very large system. The department is trying to facilitate, as rapidly as we can in terms of getting the materials out to ensure that there is a reasonable refresh rate, but that doesn't mean that there are not going to be problems on occasion. Those things happen. There are 140,000 students in the province and changing curriculum so there can be instances where there is a shortfall. We would always like to do more. There are an awful lot of available learning resources and I am not sure when you reach the point and you say enough is enough, that you have met your mandate. That is probably a subjective call and a difficult one.

[10:00 a.m.]

One of the things that helps - it's funny, enrolment decline is something we are concerned about from many perspectives, but in terms of providing text materials and learning resources, it does help alleviate demand in that we are in an environment whereby our population in the schools is declining by 2.5 per cent or 3 per cent annually and that does contribute, the incoming class next year, even though we do have some materials which may

be damaged or lost, the class is smaller so that does help alleviate with some of those problems.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I don't have too many questions to ask you because I didn't know there was a Book Bureau until I walked in here today so it is interesting to hear exactly how it happens. I would imagine that in this changing world that we live in, it would be worrisome to you that a lot of students in this province now do not gather a lot of the information they are using from books but they would instead be gathering it over the Internet. If, indeed, that is the case, and I know from previous experience of my own that the Internet is a tremendous tool but you have to be very careful on what the source of that information is on the Internet. It is easy to take a textbook and identify your sources and who wrote it and so on and so forth but on the Internet there is so much available to a student out there. I am wondering, have you considered that?

I am not asking what you are doing about it because you can't do anything about it, but is there something that you can do to probably take a look at that situation and see exactly what is being used in terms of reference material by teachers and so on. When they are sending students home to do their homework, if they don't have the proper textbook, you know probably in this day and age, they are going say look it up, Google it, you will find out. Have you considered that sort of technological change?

MS. FEDORCHUK: Yes, we have and we talk about this all the time because we recognize that there needs to be a balance between a textbook and resources outside of the textbook. In some instances, we have done some really significant work in this area. For example, the Grade 11 Canadian history course, we had a customized Canadian history textbook developed for us here in Nova Scotia in the year 2002 and with it came a CD for students to use and, in addition, an online resource. The online resource that was developed was a secured resource online and it had archival materials that was organized for kids so that they could do their exploration through historical labs and places like the National Archives in Ottawa and Nova Scotia Archives, for example.

So that was a very good example of using the technology to supplement and enhance. A textbook cannot be everything and you can't have everything in a textbook. Every school and school board and, in fact, the department, has policies around accessing the Internet for students to make sure that they are secure and safe. We have, in our own documents, made the policy that we will only identify Web sites that are provincial government Web sites or federal government Web sites so that we can be assured that these are secure and safe and don't change Web addresses over time, but we recognize that there is a lot of very good material out there. We have asked teachers, in our curriculum materials, to do some searches on their own and we, for example, have given them tips on the kinds of things, key words, to look for so that they can review sites in advance before their students do that kind of research which we want kids to do online.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, I appreciate your presentation today. Thank you very much, it was very interesting.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you finished, Mr. Wilson?

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I have no questions. I am interested that such an organization exists in the province and I think it is certainly delivering great benefits for those who it serves.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: It came around quick, didn't it. Thank you. I must comment, we miss the deputy minister here this morning. Usually every monthly meeting, we have had Mr. Cochrane here.

MR. MORSE: Yes, he would just be finishing his opening comments. (Laughter)

MR. PARKER: That's true.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And not talking about the topic...

MR. PARKER: So we miss his smiling face but perhaps next month we will have him here, I don't know.

MR. YOUDEN: We wouldn't attempt to... (Inaudible)

MR. PARKER: There you go. It just seems coincidental that most of our topics over the last few months have been on education and the deputy minister has been here.

At any rate, I had a few short snappers here I wanted to ask you about. You are located in Dartmouth on Acadia Street, I think I read the address there. I understand you are not necessarily open to the public but you do sell over the counter, only to groups or recognized educational organizations. Are there any plans, at some point, to open up to the public if somebody is interested in perhaps attaining their child's social studies book to help them at home or just for somebody who has a general interest in a topic that might want to pick up a book?

MR. YOUDEN: I think probably my comments didn't hit the nail right on the head. We are most definitely open to the public. What I was trying to distinguish between was the reference to if the Rotary was looking to purchase something that was totally unrelated

educational or if somebody wanted us to come in and special order something that was entirely off the publishers which we access. We are not in the business of responding to IBM wanting to purchase their training materials through us I guess is what I was trying to get at. We are very much open to the public and the materials we purchase, Correspondence Studies would be another example. We are supporting educational purpose.

MR. PARKER: If somebody just wanted to walk in off the street and out of interest wanted to buy the Grade 8 social studies book, they could?

MR. YOUDEN: They absolutely could.

MR. PARKER: And is there a markup on that or is it sold at the same cost as to the school or how does that work?

MR. YOUDEN: Why don't you speak to that, Wendy?

MS. LUCIANO: Okay. There is a markup on cash sales, 16.5 per cent, but there is not a markup on credit allocation or resources given to schools, just on cash sales.

MR. PARKER: Okay, so it is really open to anybody who wants to drop in and pick up a book.

MR. Luciano: Yes.

MR. YOUDEN: Absolutely. And the markup - what we do is, if you look at our budget, actually within the Education budget you will see there are costs associated with the book bureau, being our cost of running the distribution centre and the ordering and distribution centre.

The reason for the 16.5 per cent markup to general sales to the public is that we flow through materials without any overhead. We pass it on at cost, period, to school boards, et cetera. The 16.5 per cent is actually a slight recovery against our costs.

MR. PARKER: Okay and at your location, do you have a list of what is available or can the general public go in and actually look at the books and pick out what they want, like a library, for example.

MS. LUCIANO: There's a library at the Trade Mart that has a copy of all of the learning resources so that if teachers or educators or I am going to say the general public, wanted to go in and look at what they were purchasing, they could do that there.

MR. PARKER: Where is that again?

MS. LUCIANO: It's on Brunswick Street.

MR. PARKER: At the Trade Mart, okay.

MR. YOUDEN: Is the general public also able to access the web page?

MS. LUCIANO: Yes.

MR. YOUDEN: We started - I guess it is about three years ago now, Wendy? We moved to a web-based ordering system which really - what was occurring previously is teachers who really is who you're trying to get to and provide your service to, the teachers would place their orders with their Principal, who would place it with their Supervisor, who would consolidate them at the board level and then they would come to the board.

We wanted to break that chain and kind of get closer to your customers I guess would be the best way to put it. In doing that, we brought forward a web-based ordering system whereby the teachers bring forward their individual order and the public could access that same system. Web-based is probably the number one source for them to identify what materials we can provide, et cetera, and they could access us that way.

MR. PARKER: Now you're involved in sales of books and other materials to the schools and to the general public; do you also have a loan program for teachers, or is that a different department or does that still exist? I used to be a school teacher and I can well recall borrowing materials from somebody, I can't remember if it was the Book Bureau or maybe it was another organization, but as a science teacher I borrowed mineral displays, an insect display, films and so on. Is that the Book Bureau or is that somewhere different? It has been a number of years and I can't recall where it came from.

MS. FEDORCHUK: Each board does have a teacher resource centre and those kinds of items are available for teachers to borrow. The Department of Education offers the services of a library and it is possible to borrow some items from that library but, as you can imagine, it is not set up to distribute widely, one or two resources that we might have there on display. So we're not able to accommodate requests by teachers through the Department of Education. But, indeed, school boards do have the capacity and do provide learning resources through a lending program that they put in.

MR. PARKER: So there is nothing actually in the Department of Education here in Halifax where the teacher can borrow materials on a province-wide basis.

MS. FEDORCHUK: No, they can come in and they can look at it but they cannot take it away.

MR. PARKER: There used to be years ago, I recall, there was some years institution where the teacher could borrow materials for their classroom and send them back.

MS. FEDORCHUK: Its true that you can still, and teacher do access media services, so things like videos and CDs and tapes and that kind of thing - yes, absolutely, they can borrow that material, but not other kinds of learning resources like textbooks.

MR. PARKER: Okay. How long does a textbook remain relevant in the system? If they buy them this year, are they good for 10 years or 20 years or much shorter than that? I don't know.

MS. FEDORCHUK: It's interesting because publishers will come to us after three or four years with a new edition and they say, well why don't you replace them all? We just say that we cannot do it and we will not be doing that. So in answer to your question, five years would be great but we cannot accommodate a five-year turnaround, so we're looking at more like seven years, eight years, maybe in some cases longer. There have been some areas where we have not been able to provide learning resources for a very long, long time.

MR. PARKER; You have control over what books go into the classroom, I guess, but of course there are all kinds of other materials coming into the classroom. Do you have any control over groups, private businesses, religious organizations or whatever, that want to put materials into a classroom? I think the Gideons supply a New Testament Bible, there's the Nova Scotia Forest Products, they put some materials into the classroom and so on. Do you have any say on that or is that done at the board or the classroom level?

MS. FEDORCHUK: At the board level, so boards can. All boards will have policies around this as schools will, as well. Sometimes we have organizations that come to the department and they say, look, we've developed this wonderful resource, and we want to put it in every classroom and schools and so on, and we will review it to see if it is appropriate and if it is, we will do that. For example, the Canadian Writers Federation, every year they provide a little book to Grade 1 kids and it's free across Canada. So, of course, we would distribute for them that little book for every Grade 1 kid. If there's a problem with that book, we would make that known to the school, that we feel it's inappropriate for some reason.

MR. PARKER: I guess like there's an interest group, you know, whether it's religious or business, or whatever, they have a goal to get this material into children's hands and generally good intentions in most cases, but perhaps not necessarily always. Do you have any control over that or is that somewhere else?

MR. YOUDEN: Well, maybe I'll just allude back to something that Mary said earlier and that refers to the purchases that are directed through the Department of Education. Those go through a biased evaluation which ensures that they're sensitive to a whole host, I think it's seven categories, to ensure that, as an example, representation of First Nations might be

one, but it would address some of those issues to ensure that the materials provided as directed by the Department of Education are neutral in that regard. The board would then have autonomy with respect to other materials that supplement that and their choices around it and they're very sensitive to those issues as well and have policies around it.

MR. PARKER: Do we have enough books in our classrooms? Are we up to where we should be or are we underserviced at this point in time? I guess that's a complaint I hear as an MLA - you know, my children don't have enough textbooks, there's just not enough books in the classroom for the teacher to adequately work with, and should we have more textbooks?

MR. YOUDEN: Well, we would certainly like to have more. As I said earlier, it's a bit of a subjective call in terms of when enough is enough. At the same time, we know that there are schools that have an abundance of textbooks and it's finding that balance, but we would like to have more certainly.

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. PARKER: I've got one final little question here. There was a federal program called SchoolNet that was available right across the country, I'm not totally sure if it's still operating or not, but have you had any contact with that program or is that something that, it's a resource federal program that goes into our school system, are you familiar with that or not - SchoolNet?

MR. YOUDEN: I know the name but it's not ringing any particular bells with me, I apologize.

MR. PARKER: It was an Internet program for resources available to the schools but it's not any contact with the Book Bureau then. Okay, I guess that's all my questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's good timing on your behalf.

With the committee's permission, I would like to ask just a couple of questions, if that's all right. Are there any objections to that? Just a couple of things, basically what your mandate is - is to supply books that are requested or mandated by the Department of Education and the school boards, is that correct?

MR. YOUDEN: I would sort of split our mandate into two roles, if you will. One is there's an operational side which is - you know, $8 million worth of resources or $9 million worth of resources is a lot of material and it's a lot of care and handling and distribution across the province. So there's a very large operation side of this in ensuring that that happens in a way that we get what teachers want and need quickly, efficiently and cost-effective. The other side of it is really what Mary has spoken to in her questions which is

around directing or ensuring that the materials that are selected support the curriculum on a current basis and are bias-free. So there's a management of the materials going through the operation side. So there are sort of two pillars there that I would describe.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And that's good. It sounds like probably the most difficult one is the one deciding if there's any bias to a book because that's a rather objective thing and not a job I think I would want to do and I commend you for doing that.

When you talk about books in the classroom, I'll just draw your attention to an example, and it's not your mandate but I just want to put this on the record. Several years ago a friend of mine came to me. His son was in Grade Two at the time. They had absolutely no textbooks in the local school. He went to the teacher and he said to the teacher, I'll buy the textbooks for the class. The teacher was all excited and went to the principal. The principal was all excited and said, well really, we need books for all of the Grade Two classes. This gentleman was quite financially independent and he said, yes, I will do that, no problem. So of course the principal had to go to the school board. Well, that ended the purchase of the books, which was not appropriate, absolutely not appropriate. The whole school could have had books, the proper books in the curriculum, not something that was special or anything, whatever the school had requested, he would pay for. It finally came down to the point, he made a deal with the teacher and photocopied the books - which is illegal, of course - and gave them to the classes in the school and had them done to get around the school board.

Now I think that is absolutely atrocious and nothing to do with the operation you do. I think the school board has to be held at task for this. I know the government tries to provide the resources to do that, but I just wanted that on the record. The gentleman is available any time anyone wants to talk to him. He is really irritated about this - to this day, he is very irritated about it and that was many years ago.

It must be a colossal effort. When you are doing your distribution, is there any consideration, when you order the books, if you know what the distribution is going to be before you order, which wouldn't be always the case, of course, that you can get the companies to ship direct to the schools and save the handling internally?

MS. LUCIANO: The thing with your cost-savings is order in bulk and ship to one location. So if you ship to one location, your shipping and handling fees and your discount are anywhere between 10 per cent and 23 per cent, which on $9 million is a fair chunk of change and purchasing power. So if they sent to the 400-some schools from Ontario, it would be much more expensive than to get them in bulk in the province and turn them around and ship them out that way.

MR. CHAIRMAN: What is your cost of shipping, percentage per?

MS. LUCIANO: It is about $150,000 a year, because we work for the province. We have good Canada Post rates, track and trace, so there are.....

MR. YOUDEN: If you wanted to understand the economics of the Book Bureau, we are purchasing about $9 million a year and estimating our discount that we are getting as a savings arising from that, it is probably in the area of $2 million or $2.2 million - assuming a 20 per cent discount, which we think is probably what the economics are. The entirety of the cost of the Book Bureau is about $400,000 for the staff and associated costs, much of which would be there, irrespective of how you deliver it. The model, if you will, is probably comparable to the grocery industry where you ship to a point, such as Moncton or New Glasgow - that is your break order point and then you distribute. It is almost like the centre of the wheel and the spokes being the delivery. That is the model under which it operates and tries to maximize the efficiencies on the shipping side, because the bang for the buck that we create is through consolidating our purchasing wherever we can.

We order four times a year. We try to group our orders as best we can. Also, with our directed purchases, what we are really doing, while we are facilitating the curriculum side, we are also grouping into one very large order, so we get as much bang for the buck as we can there. Then, what we try to do is find the most efficient shipping model, which is what I just described. Something else that is noteworthy, I think all of those things are fairly standard. One of the things that I am very pleased about is that the Book Bureau has been very successful in talking to suppliers, because in terms of saving money, we learn an awful lot from our suppliers telling us time of year - when to tender. It is a seasonal business, the summer is very intensive and the publishers will tell you when you will get your best prices.

We host - I will call it a conference, but it is not a ritzy affair. We host meetings with our vendors each year with the publishers and that is the kind of communications which occur and it has worked out very well for us.

MR. CHAIRMAN: What does it cost you to operate your operating costs internally every year?

MR. YOUDEN: The budget this year, I think, is $440,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So you are definitely saving a lot of money.

MR. YOUDEN: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Plus you get the benefits of the other things that you do. That is great. Those are all the questions I have. Ms. Massey, do you have another one?

MS. MASSEY: I was just looking at the numbers again. You were asked some questions about are you allocated enough money. I am looking back at the figures with

Ontario getting $75 for an elementary school level per student and secondary, $100. So we start thinking, well, why isn't ours separated out that way because I'm assuming books for the higher levels might cost more.

You had mentioned that your purchasing power allows you to say, for example, buy an $85 book - you're paying only $40. So since 2003 to 2007, which is four years, the allocation amount has basically gone up $12 per student and we're still down at - maybe this year it looks like you might get maybe close to $62 that we got in 2006/2007. We don't know really what that equates to this year.

You're looking at really one book, you're just skimming the surface; if you're getting a book for $40, and $85 book for $40, your purchasing power really allows you, or the amount you are allocated - you're looking at one book per student per year, really that's what you're looking, isn't it. So probably the books that Charlie was reading in school and I was reading are probably floating around somewhere still.

So the question is, how much money has the Book Bureau actually asked for? I'm assuming departments - the way it worked on the school board was we would ask departments how much money do you need to operate that department, and then we'll look at how much money the government is giving us, so it works that way I'm assuming with departments within the Department of Education and you are the Book Bureau department. So how much money - did you ask for a specific allocation increase or what is the amount that we really need in this province to supply what you think our students need to keep up with the curriculum changes, the keep up with technology, to keep up with what's going on in our economy in all our subjects.

I know it is a big question but I guess that's what we are really here today to find out, what is the bottom line? What have you asked for? Have you got it? When are you going to get it? Are you going to get it?

MR. YOUDEN: First off, the Book Bureau doesn't generate and ask, this is what we need. What we do in determining - I'll speak generally to funding the education system, we look to the school boards to tell us what the needs are. They are closest to the action and they are the best people to address what the needs are, so that conversation really starts with the school boards and they bring forward the cost pressures facing education.

There absolutely is demand for more - we would very much would like to have more, as we said earlier. I would say that this was not a number-one priority brought forward by school boards. There are other pressures that were considered to be higher on the list. Alluding to earlier comments, part of the reason, some of the things that mitigate demand are the fact that we do have a declining enrolment and we will lose in the area of 3,300 students this year. Those chairs will be empty and will not require a textbook of any sort. So there are mitigating factors there.

We have other issues around those empty chairs but with respect to what we're talking about today, it does relieve a lot of the demand-side pressure around these materials.

MS. MASSEY: I just find it interesting how one province can allocate a certain amount of money and yet we allocate so much less. Are they getting a better education than our children? I realize, you know, now you're telling me it is the school boards that tell you or tell the province how much money they need, so I guess I'll have to ask the school boards how much money they asked for and whether they got it or not.

MR. YOUDEN I can tell you that the school boards did not have a specific ask or number associated with these materials.

MS. MASSEY: That's what I have been meaning to find out, is . .

MR. YOUDEN: I would absolutely say the school boards would say, look, we would appreciate more materials. One caution, I mean when one cost compares to one province, I think that our allocation is not out of line with provinces nationally. If one compares to Alberta will the number be lower? I can guarantee without even looking at it that it is not going to match Alberta's spending level, but nor does our revenue side.

If one compares across the broader spectrum of all of Canada, I think you will find that our numbers are not out of line.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just another question or two. You talked about the best bang for our buck here in this province and that's great and I commend you on that. You purchase four times annually and I guess my question is, do you tender each of those times? Do you tender four times annually?

MR. YOUDEN: Absolutely, we tender all of our purchases. A competitive environment is part of getting the best value.

MR. PORTER: And I guess the only other question was, is there a great deal of difference when you tender and you get tenders back in and figures? Is there a lot of difference between, I don't know how many companies might tender or publishers - three, four, five, whatever it might be - is there a substantial difference in them?

MS. FEDORCHUK: Yes, you would be surprised. Depending on what publisher and from where. We always put together a tender that identifies the quality aspects that we want of that particular book. So we're not necessarily going to go with the lowest price and we say

that in the tender up front. So in some instances, we've had products that are pretty equivalent in terms of the quality product and you will have a difference of maybe $5 or $10 per item. In those cases, we do go for the lower price, if they're sort of comparable. In other cases, you'll get publishers submitting a lot of junk, really - materials that ought not to be in any classroom, thank you very much, and we don't want it. While they might offer it to you for bargain basement prices, it's not good enough to put in our classrooms and so we say no to that.

So, yes, you would be surprised that there are these differences. Sometimes publishers are interested in getting a foot in the door or experimenting with a new kind of approach to a learning resource, so they're using their research and development dollars to offset the costs. In some cases, we've had them do that, where they're actually developing new materials, that the cost is higher than it would be on retail; but then they're looking around the country for other buyers for this product, Ontario for example, or Alberta, so yes, there is a difference.

MR. PORTER: I guess you've sort answered my next question, which was it's not totally about the costs, it's about the adequate material for our kids in our schools.

MS. FEDORCHUK: Yes.

MR. PORTER: That's all I have. Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does anyone else have any other questions? Thank you very much. I appreciate you coming in today and keep up the good work.

We've got a couple of other things we've got to discuss quickly. Mr. Porter, you had an issue about the meetings during the Legislature?

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. PORTER: Yes, I just wondered if we might discuss it briefly, it was mentioned earlier; other than doing the appointments while the House is sitting, we're all very busy trying to get through numerous materials and so on and meetings, if we would be interested in moving toward just meeting long enough to do the appointments on the regular days that we would meet instead of taking up a two-hour meeting while the House is in session only.

MR. DAVID MORSE: I would make a motion, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, what is your motion please?

MR. MORSE: I would move that the committee dispense with presentations when the Legislature is anticipated to be in session with the first meeting to forego witnesses to be during the Fall 2007 session. (Interruption)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just very clearly repeat this, because I don't think people understand what the motion is.

MR. MORSE: Well, we are going to forego the presentations while the Legislature is anticipated in being in session and that will not affect the presentation schedule until the Fall session of the House.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, so let me get it straight, because I didn't understand it completely. So basically, we'll continue our presentations on a regular schedule now, but when the Fall session comes, then we'll only do the boards and appointments until that session is over, is that correct?

MR. MORSE: Yes. As an example, if it's anticipated the House is going to be in session at the end of October, then there would be no witnesses called for that Human Resources Committee meeting, in that month. So there's no change for the next six months. I'm not anticipating that the House is probably going to be in session, possibly next month. I guess we would defer to the Opposition to answer that question.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And then there wouldn't be any meetings anyway.

MR. MORSE: Yes, that would solve that problem. So, okay, we will either be on the doorsteps or probably (Interruption)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacLeod.

MR. ALFRED MACLEOD: I just think that the motion is agreed that this committee will not entertain presentations when the House sits. We do the ABCs, because if by chance on April 24^th we're still here, we should be coming in to do the ABCs, but we shouldn't be doing a presentation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does everyone agree with that amended motion? Does the mover agree with that?

MR. MACLEOD: I also have the member for Glace Bay's proxy, I spoke to him outside.

MR. CHAIRMAN: He's not here so we can't say anything.

MR. MORSE: Maybe I could just clarify the motion, dispense with presentations when the Legislature is anticipated to be in session.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we have a seconder for that? Mr. Parker. Any more discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next thing I have here, with the permission of the committee, I'd like to add one more witness to our group of witnesses and we can decide later when that comes in, I'd just like to add a witness and I'd like to make it to the Nova Scotia Community College system. Does anyone have any objection with that? We can just add it to the list and we'll set the list of other priorities after our next meeting. Programs and operations. Is there anything else anyone wants to add?

MS. DARLENE HENRY: I'm just waiting to see, if the House is still in session I cancel this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: A motion to adjourn is in order.

We stand adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 10:34 a.m.]