HANSARD

and

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. David Wilson - Glace Bay (Chairman)

Hon. David Morse

Mr. Alfred MacLeod

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

Ms. Diana Whalen

Mr. Michel Samson

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Chief Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, JULY 31, 2007

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I call the meeting to order. It is my absolute pleasure to be your new Chair of the Human Resources Committee - just glad to be here. Get a card later on and pass it around and sign it, I'll accept that. (Laughter) No need for any other congratulatory messages, in person.

There's a number of things we can start with today, I think probably first would be the appointments for the agencies, boards and commissions. You've received the material in front of you. I don't know if it's your wish to do these individually or in bunches, whatever the case may be, but when the motion is made, just a reminder that we do not require a seconder at these meetings. It has been done in the past but it was never required. So you just make the motion and we vote on it and away you go.

Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, the first thing I would suggest...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, excuse me, sorry, I forgot one thing. Perhaps we can go around just to say our names, for the record, please. Would you start, Mr. Porter.

[ The committee members introduced themselves. ]

MR. PORTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First I would suggest we generally do them individually for each committee. I would start off with the Children and Family Services Advisory Committee and move that Audrey C. MacNeil be appointed as a member.

1

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is on the floor. Is there any discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next one is Housing Authorities. There are three Housing Authorities, I take it to read that way - the Annapolis Valley, Cobequid and Metropolitan. Mr. Morse.

HON. DAVID MORSE: I would like to move Wayne Hyson, and with great pleasure, for the Annapolis Valley Housing Authority. I would explain that Wayne is a long-time former social worker who worked with the Municipality of the County of Kings and then subsequently with the Department of Community Services. It gives me particular pleasure to move his name because Wayne is a cancer survivor and I think that there have been a number of diagnoses in the past that would suggest that he would not be here today to receive this nomination, so with great pleasure, I move Wayne Hyson for the Annapolis Valley Housing Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next is the member for the Cobequid Housing Authority. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I am not a linguist but I am going to do the best I can with the next few names. I would move Robert Michitsch for the Cobequid Housing Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Metropolitan Housing Authority, Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I would move Lizette Coelho and Craig Quaintance as members of the Metropolitan Housing Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Nova Scotia Association of Social Workers, Board of Examiners. Mr. Samson.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: Mr. Chair, it would be my pleasure to move the name of Richard J. Melanson as a member of the Nova Scotia Association of Social Workers, Board of Examiners. I've known Mr. Melanson for a number of years, through his work as an attorney with the firm of Blois, Nickerson & Bryson and he has also had extensive work with the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board. I am also pleased to say he would bring bilingual experience to this board as well. Mr. Melanson has extensive experience in the law and would certainly be an asset to this board and I would so move his appointment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I would like to add that we're lucky to have such qualified applicants because it is not always easy to get people who are willing to serve in this capacity. So when you get people who are not only willing to serve but have such an excellent resume, it certainly is good to see.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Education, Agricultural College Foundation, Nova Scotia. Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I would move Mr. Laurie Hennigar and Mr. Kenneth Peacock as members of the Agricultural College Foundation, Nova Scotia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next is under the Department of Education, Apprenticeship Board. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I move Colin Campbell as the Chair and a member; Michael Boutilier and Heather Cruickshanks as members of the Apprenticeship Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Next is the Department of Education, Youth Advisory Council. Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: I would move Sarah Lefurgey as a Youth Advisory Council member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Energy, Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board. Mr. Samson.

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure to move the nomination of Timothy J. Brownlow as an Alternate Board Member for the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board. Tim Brownlow would be no stranger to most members of this committee, due to his extensive experience with the OTANS here in the province. Tim was previously an employee with the Government of Nova Scotia, working on the issue of offshore benefits and is now a representative with the J.D. Irving Group and I am sure would be a tremendous asset to the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board and I would so move his nomination.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: I was going to make that motion as well because I have worked with Timothy Brownlow in the past and he does have a wealth of experience in this field.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is on the floor. Any discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture, Fisheries and Aquaculture Loan Board. Mr. Samson.

MR. MICHEL SAMSON: You might want to move them first.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I thought you wanted to move them?

MR. SAMSON: No.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I so move Moody McKay and Paula McQuinn as members of the Fisheries and Aquaculture Loan Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Samson.

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, this is one I have some difficulty with. Not the individuals involved, but if members look to the composition of the board as it exists, you have Edmond AuCoin from Antigonish; Peter Burnie from Digby; Martin Cottreau from Wedgeport; Moody McKay who would be a reappointment from Dartmouth; Eric Nowe from Lunenburg; Michael Parker from Bridgetown, Annapolis County; and Roy Surette from Church Point. What jumps out at me - being an MLA from Cape Breton - is that there is absolutely no representation from Cape Breton on what I would consider to be a vital agency.

I'm aware, having grown up in the fishing industry, of the importance of the Fisheries and Aquaculture Loan Board and I don't think I need to inform members of how important the fishery is to the Cape Breton Island economy. I would submit to you that after this year's lobster season and crab season that the fishery is once again king of the economy in Cape Breton.

In my own area of Isle Madame, for example, over $1 million of lobster was landed this season in a two-month period. The fact there is no representation from Cape Breton causes me great concern as one of the appointments is a reappointment from Dartmouth and the other lady would be from Argyle which is again on the other end of the province.

[9:15 a.m.]

It is unclear from this as to whether the minister intends to appoint any other members to this board and if that is the case, I would not have an issue with this and would certainly ensure that he would have good applicants from Cape Breton Island to sit on this board, but at this point in time I don't think there is any way for us to be able to determine whether the minister does intend to make any more appointments because it's not clear what is the maximum or minimum board members required for this particular board.

It would be my intention, unless there is more information that can be provided at this point, Mr. Chairman, to move that these two names be stood for this meeting until such time as we have an opportunity to hear from the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture as to whether there are going to be further appointments to this board or to hear his opinion on my concerns of the lack of representation from Cape Breton on this board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I concur with the minister from . . .

MR. SAMSON: That was a long time ago, Clarrie. (Laughter)

MR. MACKINNON: I had a very busy night last night at a public meeting with a couple hundred people there, so I'm half asleep this morning. I apologize for that. I concur with the member for Richmond and having worked in Cape Breton in the fishery for a number of years, I think there is a real problem that there are four counties where the fishery is very important, that there is no representation. I agree with the staying of these appointments for a month. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are just looking to see how many actually applied here and there is a number here. I have absolutely no issue - being the mover - concurring as well with Mr. Samson, there should be representation from across the province with such a very important board. If we'd like to stay this until next month at this point in time, we certainly have no problem with that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that although I agree on one level, one of the people we are putting off is the female, which would be the only female, I believe, on that board. Of the numbers who applied, there were three males and one female, and I know we have had a lot of talk around the table about trying to get females on this, so I do have some apprehension in putting that off. Is there a certain, exact timeline that we would be putting if off to?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Samson.

MR. SAMSON: I appreciate the comments by Ms. Massey, and I had the same apprehension in that it was actually refreshing to see a female would be appointed to a board that would historically have been male-dominated. It was certainly good to see that such an appointment was going to be made, which is why I didn't want to single that appointment out considering the other appointment was a reappointment, which is why I suggested both be stood for now so that the minister - if he's not going to make any further appointments - will have a choice to make as to whom he wishes to appoint at that point.

It is not my intention to delay this any longer than necessary; in fact if we could get an answer from the minister today, I would be prepared to move on this today, but that is not realistic. I would certainly suggest that this matter be brought back for consideration at our

next meeting, and hopefully by that point we will have received some information from the minister after, I'm sure you, Mr. Chairman, will have the opportunity to write to the minister expressing the concerns that were raised and asking for his feedback on this matter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? I'm not clear on exactly what the composition of the board is supposed to be, so maybe we could ask for some clarification on that as well.

MR. SAMSON: It seems to be at the discretion of the minister, which is not clear, and I'm not sure historically what was done either, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So you're not saying there is a certain time frame then, Mr. Samson, how long we have to stay this? Our next meeting, for instance is not until August 28^th.

MR. SAMSON: Yes, we meet once a month, so it would be in a month's time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And that is not causing any undue hardship to the board or anything else - so is everyone satisfied with that?

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, if you look at the amount of members currently on the board who are not going to expire anytime soon, this should not cause any problems at all for the board to continue its operation without these two appointments going forward.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion on the floor then was to approve these, but there has been an amendment to the motion - is that they way we are doing it?

MR. SAMSON: The motion is now that the two appointments be stood until we meet at our next meeting of the Human Resources Committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Health, Board of the College of Chiropractors.

Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I would move that Linda Diane Hefler be appointed as a member to the Board of the College of Chiropractors.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on the motion?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

Board of Dispensing Opticians.

Mr. Morse.

HON. DAVID MORSE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to move Thomas Burlock, Gregory Gillam, Lorne Ostrov, and Graham Sweett as members of the Board of Dispensing Opticians.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, is it appropriate for me to be involved with the next one, because I'm the Minister responsible for the Shubenacadie Canal Commission?

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a very good question, Mr. Morse. Is it appropriate for you to be on any committees at all, I don't know? (Laughter) Due to the circumstances, I think we'll skip that debate right now. We do have ample members here for a quorum - if you wanted to remove yourself from this vote then by all means, if you feel more comfortable, please do so.

MR. MORSE: I don't feel any need to vacate the room, unless that is appropriate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't think that is necessary, I think if you have pretty well decided that you're (Interruption) Pardon me?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): He can abstain from ...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can abstain from voting, so if you are making that official, you are abstaining from this vote.

MR. MORSE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Department of Natural Resources, Shubenacadie Canal Commission.

Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I so move that Alden Killen be appointed Commissioner of the Shubenacadie Canal Commission.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: I just want to say something after we vote.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, sure. There is a motion on the floor.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to state that I think the record shows that there is now going to be five or six vacant spots still on that commission, which seems like a large number. I would just hope, if I'm looking at that correctly, that the government moves quickly to fill those positions because I think that is a very important commission in the province that really could help our tourism industry. There is no end in sight for what could occur there and I know that they do have a business plan that they sent and we all had a copy of that back in the Fall session. They sent that forward and at last checking, I don't know if they've actually met with all of the departments that they would like to. I would hope that that has happened since I last spoke to them, but if there are that many vacant spots then we need to make sure we do everything we can to fill those.

MR. SAMSON: You'll make note of it with the minister?

MR. CHAIRMAN: So noted. Would you like a letter or something from this committee sent to the minister to that effect?

MS. MASSEY: I'll leave that in your capable hands. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Make note of that, please, and we'll write the minister expressing our concern about the number of vacancies on the board, as highlighted by the member.

Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, now that we've taken the vote, I am very pleased to see that the member for Dartmouth East has taken an active interest in the complement on the Shubenacadie Canal Commission, and I look forward to her coming forward with some excellent recommendations that I am sure I would be pleased to recommend to this committee.

I would like to have a gender balance, and I would also just put on the record that I did bump into one person whom I thought would be a good candidate and did encourage him to pursue it with the committee. I believe that one name will be coming forward, but really what I'm trying to say is this is another one of these committees where there are criteria laid out for the makeup of the committee membership and we just simply do not get enough qualified names, and in fact I would say that we do not get enough names. Of course, we need qualified names, but it is just a question of not enough people being prepared to allow their name to stand for consideration.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: If we are done, I would just like to move the next . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are done, but I already have a request on the floor to go to Mr. Samson for the next one.

The Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, the Gaelic College Foundation, Board of Governors.

Mr. Samson.

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, it is with . . .

MR. MORSE: Can you do that in Gaelic?

MR. SAMSON: I can do it in French, but not in Gaelic.

Mr. Chairman, it is on honour for me to move the name of Mr. Ken MacAskill - better known to all of us as "Kenny" - as Governor of the Gaelic College Foundation Board of Governors.

Mr. Chairman, I believe most members around this table will remember Mr. MacAskill during his time as MLA for Victoria. I believe he is one of those elected members who had the respect of all sides of the House and, I believe, distinguished himself during his time both as MLA and as a Minister of the Crown. Mr. MacAskill was one of the few members in the House who was able to do resolutions in Gaelic and it is a pleasure to see that he gets to continue his passion for the Gaelic language and culture while serving on this foundation. I would therefore move the nomination of Kenny MacAskill as Governor with the Board of Governors with the Gaelic College Foundation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion?

Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say that I worked with Kenny MacAskill on quite a number of issues relating to his constituency years ago on fishery matters. I, too, have a great respect for him and what he has stood for over the years and some of the mediation work that he did, in fact, do in relation to aquaculture sites and other controversial issues that came about during his time as an MLA, so I'm happy with this appointment, and also the fact that he has been involved with the Gaelic end of things for so long, where some of us have lost that through the generations. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon. If I had to add my own personal two cents on this issue, you couldn't meet a finer gentleman anywhere in Nova Scotia and I couldn't agree more with the appointment. But anyway, regardless of that, let's move ahead.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Heritage Property Advisory Council, Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: I move Mr. Gordon Harmer as a member of the Heritage Property Advisory Council.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Committee business is the next item on our agenda and the scheduling of witnesses for September. Dr. Henry Bishop has been rescheduled now from June to October 30^th, and that's confirmed. That was at Dr. Bishop's request, was it not? So that's taken care of.

Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I just make the comment that I think there had been discussion, and I'm going to say agreement, in the past that we would not have witnesses during times that the Legislature was in session. Of course the difficulty here is we're not sure when that's going to be but my guess would be that we likely could be in session on October 30^th.

MRS. HENRY: If I may, if that's the case then I can reschedule Dr. Bishop and I'm sure he'll be in agreement with it but as you say, it's hard to determine when; I can't assume, but we can move him to the end of November if the House is out of session as well.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Not being on the committee before, I don't know what the discussion was but you'd have to have some sort of a date or a timeline as to when you're going to cut off scheduling people to come before the committee, would you not, whether that's October 15^th or October 30^th or September 1^st? I don't know how you would operate on that, since we're not meeting very often in the summer - we only meet once a month, correct? We're mandated to meet once a month.

MRS. HENRY: Yes we do. The committee has been holding dual meetings. We have been doing ABCs at the first part of the meeting and then having presentations in the second half.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we can call Dr. Bishop then and just ask him if he is available before October 30^th, is that possible? Or shall we stick with October 30^th? Mr. Samson, someone bring some more discussion, please.

MR. SAMSON: I would just suggest that we leave him on the schedule for October 30^th. Once we get our 30 days notice of the Legislature resuming, that will give us a sense of when we'll be back and I'm sure the clerk at that point will be able to discuss it with the chairman and the decision can be made as to possibly postponing Dr. Bishop to a later date.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed? Thank you.

The next item is special education tuition funding. I've asked that this be revisited myself. There was a letter, that you should have before you, from a former member of the committee and former chairman - Mr. Colwell - regarding this issue. I think we were in the process of scheduling an extra hour, or half an hour, whatever the case may be, for a number of witnesses that were going to appear before the committee.

I just wanted to bring it back to the committee. I thought - I'm of the general opinion that two hours is enough for any meeting and I just don't know where we were going with this. There's no way - with the number of witnesses that we were calling for - that we would have been able to do it in even two and a half hours. So I'm just looking for some discussion on this matter as to whether or not we're going to go ahead with it and how we're going to proceed. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: The first thing that I want to clarify is that I believe the suggestion to have this topic came from the member for Kings West who is the Liberal Education Critic and he also is the Department of Natural Resources Critic. He clarified with me that I believe the actual topic is the Tuition Support Program, that would be the correct program.

I would like to further say, unless I'm corrected on that point, that I think it is an excellent topic to bring up for discussion. I think that this support of special needs students has been sorely needed in this province for a time and much appreciated by the families. I think it's an excellent subject to be bringing forward before this committee. My compliments to the member for Kings West.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Samson.

MR. SAMSON: Mr. Chairman, I don't have any problem with those witnesses coming but if I look at the list here, there's two from our caucus and there are five from the PC caucus and most of them are couples. Logistically, I just don't know how you're going to do this. Are they each going to be given an opportunity to speak, give their story? How do you even envision doing this, because obviously if each are going to speak, I think that'll be two hours just of hearing their presentations, if we can even limit it to that. So I'm just not sure, logistically, how you're going to be able to frame this so that these witnesses feel that they've been able to inform us of their concerns and yet for us to be able to carry out our meeting in a timely and organized fashion. So I'm just looking for some direction as to what the chairman sees how this will take place.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair is looking for direction as well. Mr. Parker, then Mr. Porter, then Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. CHARLES PARKER: Mr. Chairman, my understanding when we last talked about this was that each caucus would have two members. While you don't see any there at the moment for the NDP, I'm quite sure we do have two families or individuals that would want to present and I understood the government caucus and the Liberal caucus would also have two members. I see two there for the Liberals but I understood there would be only two representatives from each caucus and that would allow six witnesses, which in two hours might be tight and that is why we suggested two and a half hours.

The other thing, I just want to clarify that this is tuition support. An example then would be a family would send the student to somewhere like Landmark East in Wolfville, they're trying to get assistance, so I'm on the right track there then. I think if we can narrow it down to two per caucus, then that still makes for a long meeting.

MR. PORTER: I agree with Mr. Parker, that was exactly what was discussed. We would put forward names and then two would be selected from each caucus to speak with - we did allow a little bit of extra time there, I believe, thinking that it may, with appointments, run over where we do the dual meetings. I can assure you our caucus is quite happy with two hours any time that we can manage it. We agree it is enough with everything else that we have going on.

The names were put forward and again, these names were just submitted but we are more than prepared to pick two of those five and, unless the committee decides we are going to one of those, we'll choose one. We're wide open to whatever the committee is happy with but I do recall, Charlie, you stated it being two per caucus and limited to 10 minutes or so apiece, perhaps, giving us some time for questions when they were done.

There was no limit, I do not believe, so for example, those five that we put forward, all five of the representatives could come and sit around the room and listen. I think that was also, but it was limited to the number of speakers, Mr. Chairman.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I was going to comment on the two per caucus and the three NDP members of the committee have had discussions on who best could articulate the concerns. In my area we had three and the member for Pictou West had one. We had some discussion and I think that the member for Dartmouth East had a number of people as well.

I think we have sort of decided that at least there would be one from Pictou County and I think that person is going to come from Pictou West and one from Dartmouth East, perhaps.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I think one of the things we need to clarify today is if we are going to have people come in and speak for 10 minutes, they need to know because we hadn't - I don't believe in the previous meeting - talked about anything more than them making a presentation. We didn't talk about us asking them questions and I think people have to be prepared for that if they are coming in. People can get very emotional when they're talking about their children and I think they need to be really prepared that if we are going to ask questions, they have to know that in advance. If we are now talking about us asking them questions, what is the timeline on that also, so we have to know those things to tell them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Just a thought on that, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps two things, one looking at getting the meeting to two hours, that is fine; the other, Ms. Massey raises a very good point, perhaps we would not ask any questions. We would thank them for coming and giving their presentation, but it would give us some questions to prepare to perhaps bring the Department of Education or anyone else back before the committee, to then move forward with some of the information given. Maybe that would indicate some questioning at a later date for us in another meeting of committee and not put those families on the spot because I agree, some of those will be quite emotional and they're not going to have enough time to get into that story and answer questions. We could see this going on and on just with one

presenter. Ten minutes to come to do a presentation is probably ample if we're going to have six presentations and do our committee business. We're going to eat up two hours, I think, quite quickly.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: I agree with the time constraints of bringing in that many witnesses, but this program is breaking new ground in Nova Scotia and for the families that need the services of those now three approved schools in the province, as has been said by previous speakers, it is going to be very moving to hear from them. I've heard families come in before we had the program in place and have actually had parents in tears because they were not sure how they were going to continue to fund their children's education and they saw what a difference it made in their lives. To them, it was the key to a future with a successful career, as opposed to perhaps dropping out of school. I do think there should be some opportunity to focus the presentation, so that we can get a little bit back from the witnesses if we need extra clarification.

I think that this agenda item really has the potential of further improving what I think was unanimously agreed in the Legislature as being a very constructive initiative on the part of the government and the Department of Education. I guess I am saying that I would want to think that there was some opportunity for the witnesses to answer questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, when I made my statements earlier, I wasn't saying that we can't ask questions, but that the witnesses would have to know that we were going to be asking questions or not. I do think, the way we used to do it on the school board was, when we had witnesses come in we could only ask questions for clarification, which is a good point, which is different than delving further into people's issues or whatever. I think there are going to be very personal stories.

We might think about cutting it down to one from each caucus, I don't know, because we have to add on the time for asking questions. Another point is, did we discuss at all having the department come in at the same time so that we could hear these stories and then after we heard the stories, ask them questions?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it has been suggested by the clerk that we can split the agenda item and do the presenters one day and then another day we'll do the department, if that is the case. Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking away from the importance of the agenda item, there are many other things that we could be talking about as well that I am sure we could spend a lot of time on, I'm just worried about the time of the committee and how it is going to be spent.

As I said, I'm a firm believer in the fact that two hours is enough for any meeting and enough for any of us here. It poses not a problem for the committee, but to put six witnesses in here poses a problem for me, as Chair, I don't want to be keeping these people in line to a time limit and then imposing questions on them from members, or rushing them out of their chair, or rushing them through a presentation just so we can get through six witnesses. Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: As a constructive suggestion - or I hope it is taken as a constructive suggestion - to the member for Dartmouth East's suggestion about including the Department of Education staff, could we possibly invite the administrator of the program to come and listen to the presentations and then as a result of hearing those presentations, then might be able to come back at a subsequent meeting and comment. I think that there is going to be some really constructive material that could potentially come out of this session and it would give the Department of Education - through the point person who has been charged with administering the program - the opportunity to come back and make constructive suggestions as a result of the presentation and that really, I think, is why we want to call these witnesses.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is my understanding, from what the clerk has told me on this subject, the department has appeared before the Public Accounts Committee and . . .

MRS. HENRY: The topic of special education and all of these programs have been before several committees over the course of time anyway. Before Human Resources, before Public Accounts, at different levels.

[9:45 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parker.

MR. PARKER: Special education is another topic almost. It is a component of this, but there are so many other aspects of special education. This is tuition support only we're talking about here - part of special education, but still a very different component in many ways.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the best thing to do then is, we'll stick with the two per caucus and when we contact the presenters we will inform them that there will be a time limit on their presentation, no more than 10 minutes, I think is fair for a presentation, and that there could be questions from the members afterwards.

Since more of the members are here now, just to inform you, because of the time constraints we won't be allowing for 20 minutes of questioning or 10 minutes of questioning, you'll be lucky if you get a few questions in per caucus to get through the morning. Perhaps that same morning we will move through our appointments to the ABCs rather quickly. Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the member opposite that the point person from the department should be in attendance, but not be involved as a voice at the meeting, but would be great for follow-up.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, would you want that person contacted to let them know that this is going to take place? The committees are open so anybody can walk in, but would you like that person contacted directly?

MR. MACKINNON: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Great, okay, so noted. Any further discussion? (Interruption) I suppose we're saying, is it August 28^th you want it or did you want it . . .

MRS. HENRY: No, it's September.

MR. CHAIRMAN: September 26^th. Unless we're sitting at that time and we'll deal with it at that point.

There is apparently some discussion we're supposed to have on meeting times. Is that coming from you?

Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Thank you. I really don't have any idea, but I'm going to suggest that the meetings of this committee remain held between 9:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. as normal, and we have had some attempts to move them. Was it last month, Joan, we came for nine o'clock and it was actually moved to ten o'clock and a couple of us maybe had forgotten or weren't aware? I know people travel but it has been that way and our schedules - I'll speak for my own schedule, it's set up based around these committee meetings.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, it was the member for Cape Breton West we were trying to accommodate and that member was travelling all the way in that particular morning of the meeting. I like to have it at nine o'clock as well, but it was an accommodation situation. Certainly ten o'clock would have been better for me today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: I think I was one that got it put on the agenda because I thought at one point we had agreed that during the summer, to allow people more travel time, that we were starting at ten o'clock, so a couple of us did show up - forgot about that - at nine

o'clock and it was ten o'clock. Then I thought that it was going to be throughout the whole summer and into the Fall that we would start at ten o'clock, but I guess I misinterpreted that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for your information, I was contacted through the Office of the Clerk by the member for Cape Breton West about changing today's meeting to ten o'clock and I said no, that the meetings would stay from nine o'clock until eleven o'clock. It was a question of travel time - I mean, I live the furthest away of any member in the Legislature and I was here at 8:40 a.m.

So for the record, as far as the Chairman is concerned, the meetings will stay from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m.. That is a set time for committee meetings and I think they should stay that way. It is also important to Cabinet Ministers and so on, who are serving on committees, that you be able to keep your agendas on time and schedule for your appointments, as the rest of us do, but even more so with Cabinet Ministers, that you know well in advance that a meeting will take place on such-and-such a date at nine o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Morse.

MR. MORSE: Mr. Chairman, actually I guess it was probably my own fault that I did not convey the change in the starting time for the last meeting to my secretary, but it was because of the ten o'clock start that I missed the last meeting because I had a conflict. I was available for the initial part of the meeting where we actually do the appointments, so I appreciate your comments - you are absolutely right, it is difficult to change the schedule.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are all agreed. I must say this is a very friendly committee. I appreciate what we're doing here this morning. Having said that, we'll move on to the next meeting date, which is August 28^th, from 9:00 a.m. until 11:00 a.m. which, for this point in time, will deal with just appointments to agencies, boards and commissions.

Are there any further items you'd like to discuss this morning? If not, I think it is appropriate to call for a motion to adjourn.

Motion carried.

Thank you very much.

[ The committee adjourned at 9:51 a.m.]