HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. Keith Colwell (Chairman)

Hon. Carolyn Bolivar-Getson

Mr. Alfred MacLeod

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Charlie Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Diana Whalen

Mr. Leo Glavine

[Mr. Alfred MacLeod was replaced by Mr. Keith Bain.]

[Mr. Leo Glavine was replaced by Mr. Stephen McNeil.]

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 31, 2006

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Keith Colwell

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order. It's great to see everybody here this morning, all chipper and ready to go. We're going to start off with our appointments, and then we have some committee business after that we have to discuss regarding further meetings and possible witnesses for some other dates. We can start off with our appointments.

HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Community Services, Children and Family Services Act Advisory Committee, I so move Katherine Briand, Lynn Cheek, Cheryl Harawitz, Richard Gruchy, Trena Gallant, and Barbara Sowinski as members.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Seconded.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: With regard to that committee, I'm just wondering if the committee is now full, if all the spots are full on that committee. I know we had some discussions at prior meetings, and I think this is the one where we were trying to make sure that parents who actually had children who might have been in need of protective services, that those parents had gotten on that committee. It just seems like a lot has happened since last Spring, with the election and this sort of thing. If you'll excuse my lack of remembering what actually happened with that committee, maybe we can get an update if the committee is actually full.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's not a question I have an answer to, but we can inquire to make sure and bring that information back to the committee.

MR. CLARRIE MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, as a novice, this is a general question which I would just like to get clarification on. When we are making appointments like this, there are never any listings of the people who have applied who are not being appointed. I think that would be most helpful to have an entire list and then to see the appointments. I'm wondering why it doesn't work that way. It's probably a juvenile committee point to be making but I'm a juvenile here, despite my age.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to take that under new business, if I could, because that's something that I think would require some discussion, if that's all right with the member, and I will put it under new business, but it's a very good point.

We'll get the information Ms. Massey requested. We'll send a letter off to the department.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I do know that the people who have applied did meet the parameters of what we were asking for, but I'm not sure if the committee is 100 per cent full.

MS. MASSEY: It's the parents with the children who actually were involved with those kinds of situations.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm told that they did meet the parameters that we applied for, but . . .

MS. MASSEY: The people who are being appointed here today do not fit those categories, I don't believe. There is a legal aid lawyer, the minister's representative, agency representative, so I'm just not sure. I would like to have a little bit . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll send a letter to the department and get a definite answer on whether this is a full appointment, and I'll bring that back to the committee at our next meeting.

Any other questions on this before we move the question? Ms. Whalen.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Just one question, but this is an unusual one in that we had quite a bit of discussion about it last year on the composition of the committee because it has very strict guidelines about the membership and who they should represent. What I'm noticing today is that it has come back so quickly and when you look at the information, the fine detail, it shows that the term is only one year, which seems really short for a committee because as we know at this Human Resources Committee,

we look at over 100 agencies, boards and commissions. If it's going to be renewed every year, I think that's a little bit too short, actually. I imagine they've hardly met. Prior to us making appointments last year, it was a committee that hadn't met I think ever, or it certainly hadn't met in the last three or four years. So could we also, in your request - my request would be to ask why the term is so short and why it wouldn't be two or three years.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we can do that, if that is the wish of the committee. Okay, we can do that as well. Any other questions before I call the question on this?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Next we have the Preston Area Housing Fund Board of Directors. I'd like a mover for that, please.

MR. KEITH BAIN: Mr. Chairman, I so move Garry Bernard as chairman and member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I have a seconder?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'll second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next one is the Round Table on Early Childhood Development. Can I have a mover for that?

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I so move Marquise Sopher as the board member for the Round Table on Early Childhood Development.

MR. CHAIRMAN: A seconder?

MS. WHALEN: I'll second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Education, Council on African-Canadian Education.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I so move William Crawford as a member of the African-Canadian Education Council.

MR. CHAIRMAN: A seconder?

MR. BAIN: I'll second it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Dalhousie College and University Board of Governors. Could I have a mover for that?

MR. BAIN: Mr. Chairman, I so move Jay Abbass, Elizabeth Beale and James Cowan as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I have a seconder for that?

MS. WHALEN: I'll second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.

MS. MASSEY: It's not actually a question, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to point out again my favourite topic of how many men and how many women are on these committees. I believe that committee now will stand with 10 men and one woman. It's a bit ironic because I do believe there are more female students in post-secondary education than males. So I would like to see us push harder.

I know we have because the committee did meet - our little subcommittee met just last week, I think, and there's a big issue. We heard from various departments that females don't seem to be applying in the same numbers as males and how we did come up with some suggestions to try to move forward in a progressive, positive way and look for some ways to deal with that issue of the lack of people applying to these ABCs.

Again, just to point it out so we don't forget that this is what's happening here around this table. I just wanted to point that out. Thank you.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Just to continue on with that, yes, it's very hard to pick names from a list when there are no women on the list to pick from in the first place.

I think you will find that when they do apply that they do very well. So we do need to get the word out and we need to have more women apply for our ABCs.

MS. MASSEY: So for example, on that one, Mr. Chairman, would it be possible for us to find out, or maybe there's a member here who could tell us if any females - were there more females who applied for that and they just didn't meet the criteria? I think I'd be interested and maybe other committee members would be interested in finding out, maybe some women did apply and just weren't meeting the proper criteria, because it is a big issue.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Ms. Massey, in the write-up here we have that 10 males and 5 females applied for those positions, a total of 15.

MS. MASSEY: So I'll assume they just didn't meet the same criteria as the men did.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I can't answer that question.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess a lot of times when these boards . . .

MS. MASSEY: I mean, we don't see the resumés, so we can't judge it.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: . . . when these names come forward to the minister, they're put forward by the board and they are recommendations by the board, originally.

MS. MASSEY: They've obviously met some kind of criteria.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: That's really a follow-up to the previous comment, but it does say here on the board composition that different groups nominate for this board at Dalhousie. Some of them are the alumni association, it says they're up to 25 members, but they have 12 nominated by the alumni association, too, by the board of governors at Kings College, one from the United Church of Canada and so on. So I believe that this is one where we take our guidance from outside of government. I still think it's worthwhile to have it on the record that we would like to see better balance for gender, and encourage others to do so.

[9:15 a.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: If I may suggest, the issue brought up by Mr. MacKinnon, maybe we could include that in our discussion with that because I think the two of them may go together.

Any more discussion on these appointments?

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Council on Mi'kmaq Education.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I so move the appointment of Holly Meuse to the Council on Mi'kmaq Education.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I second this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

St. Francis Xavier University Foundation.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I so move Donald Munroe and John T. Sears as members of the St. Francis Xavier University Foundation.

MR. BAIN: I second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion?

MS. MASSEY: Just a comment on that one. Again, three male members and two members . . .

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: This would be the same as the Dalhousie board, that the names are coming forward.

MS. MASSEY: Yes, the same sort of where they come forward. My question then is, do we know if any special advertising went to the college alumni for that one, specifically to women members? I'm just looking for ways if the names are coming forward from another organization, because this is what we talked about in our subcommittees, how we're going to look at innovative ways to reach out to women in the province. That's just a suggestion, I'm just wondering if maybe it's something they might look at doing in the future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any more discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next one we have is the Department of Environment and Labour, Arbitration Advisory Committee.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, I so move Bruce Archibald as chairman and member, and Robert Chisholm; Robert Dunn; Linda Gallant; Ray Larkin, Q.C.; J. Gordon MacLean; and Peter McLellan, Q.C., as members.

MR. BAIN: I second that.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, again, we have six appointments and only one female.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess if you look back to the . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Only one applied.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: . . . amount who have applied, it is self-explanatory, we need to get more women to step up to the plate and apply.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any more discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, to the health authorities, District 1, South Shore, I so move Roxanna Smith as board member and chair; and Don MacDonald, James Mosher, Dawn Payzant, and Sandra Richards as board members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. BAIN: Mr. Chairman, to District 2, South West Nova, I so move Ronald Horrocks as board member and chair; and Melbourne Comeau, David Irvine, and Mason Van Tassell as board members.

MS. WHALEN: I second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, to District 3, Annapolis Valley, I so move David Logie as board member and chair; and Preston Ilsley, Gregory Kerr, and Heather MacLean as board members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, to District 4, Colchester East Hants, I so move Gerald Ritcey as board member and chair; and Ruth Crowdis, Ken Curren, Judith Wesley, Brenda Whittle, and Jim Wyatt as board members.

MR. PARKER: I'll second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, to District 5, Cumberland, I so move Bruce Saunders as board member and chair; and Jacqueline Beal, David Douglas, Dora Fuller, Doug Marshall, and Dr. Krystian Szczesny as board members.

MR. BAIN: I'll second that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, to District 6, Pictou Country, I so move G. Murray Hill as board member and chair; and Norman Lord, Linda Muir, and Janette Sears as board members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion?

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make one comment on how well this board is working with a new CEO up there, Pat Lee, and the board and the new CEO seem to be really in sync on a lot of issues and doing very good work in the area of recruitment, which is essential to any hospital. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other comments? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, to District 7, Guysborough Antigonish Strait, I so move Patricia Bates, Juliana Julian, Theodorus J. Martens and Alfreda M. Tate as board members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, to District 8, Cape Breton, I so move Margaret Herbert, Elizabeth Nearing and Peter Patterson as board members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, to District 9, Capital District, I so move Sean Bedell, Paul Campbell, Alan Ellis, Brian Hennen, Marek Jagielski, Michael Marentette, Graham MacDermott and James McAllister as board members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. BAIN: Mr. Chairman, to Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre/Nova Scotia Hospital, I so move Sean Bedell, Paul Campbell, Alan Ellis, Brian Hennen, Marek Jagielski, Michael Marentette, Graham MacDermott and James McAllister as board members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Justice, Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission, I so move Robert Hannigan, Frank D. Likely and K. Martha MacDonald as commissioners.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Natural Resources, Shubenacadie Canal Commission, I so move Maurice E. Lloyd and Gordon Warnica as commissioners.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, Art Gallery of Nova Scotia Board of Directors, I so move Paul Bradley, Duncan Gould, Dennice Leahy, Andrew Lynch, Shirlee Medjuck, Rob Sobey, Ken Ward and Glenn Williams as members.

MR. MACKINNON: Seconded.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, Public Archives Board of Trustees, I so move Alexander Herbert MacDonald and Brian Tennyson as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Now, we have a few other things here on committee business that we have to look into. The next meeting is going to be November 7^th, and I thank everybody who responded in favour of this because we just didn't have time today to go through this. There has been only one question, the Department of Education has indicated they don't

really want to come in for this and they don't think they have to. I don't agree with that. I think they should be here, but that's my opinion. I'd like some direction from the committee. They think that since they put out this $400 per student assistance, that they don't need to come and explain anything anymore. I think that's unusual, when we've asked them to come. So I'd like your input on that.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I think it's of paramount importance that the department be here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion?

MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, who is coming, then, as witnesses next week if they're not coming?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): A representative from the Department of Finance, a representative from the two student groups, and Education.

MR. PARKER: Nobody from the federal department? It's a federal bill, C-48, but there's nobody from any branch of the federal government here?

MRS. HENRY: It was just asked during one of our meetings that these people come.

MR. PARKER: Just the provincial people? Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: At this point, we could add someone; we could bring this back, if you wanted, later. It's going to be a pretty full schedule with the people who are coming, I think.

MR. PARKER: It certainly would be nice, though, to have people here from the Department of Education. It's their prerogative. They're monitoring the program for the feds.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, I would think that if we were looking for somebody, it should be more the responsibility of the federal government to be here, as it is their bill that is being put forward here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So what's the wish of the committee?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'd like to see the feds here.

MR. PARKER: What has the Department of Education said? Did they just say no? Is that it?

MRS. HENRY: They just said, why do they need to come in now that the announcement has been made? Do they still need to come in, basically?

MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure of the rationale behind the department's analogy that because they've announced a $400 reduction that they don't have to come in, and student debt issues are finished. As a member who's sitting in on this committee for one of my colleagues, I think it's paramount that the Department of Education comes in to discuss this issue. If the department is now trying to convince Nova Scotians that the debt load of Nova Scotia students is not high anymore because they've made this announcement, then they should come here and say that. I would think it's important for this committee to call them in here and move forward. If you find later on that you need the federal government here, then just bring the issue back to the committee.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, certainly the assistance that is coming forward doesn't do anything to alleviate - well, it does something, but it doesn't do a great deal in cutting the gap in tuition levels from other provinces in comparison to ours. I think it's still a very important issue, and that the department should be here with bells on for that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: To bring this to a resolution, I just ask if we have a consensus that the Department of Education come in. I would rather do it that way than go to a vote, but I will go to a vote if we need to. Does anyone have any objection to the Department of Education coming? Hearing none, we will make sure the Department of Education is here.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I also feel that the federal government should be here as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. The problem is it wasn't requested earlier that they come when we went through this process, but I agree they really should be here.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: We're talking about the level of government that is ultimately responsible here and we're not even inviting them to the meeting to talk about student debt.

MS. WHALEN: The federal government has transferred money to the province, but ultimately it's the Department of Education that's responsible. It really is. Education is a provincial matter if we're looking at strict guidelines. I think, as you say, there may be other questions around the program that they're transferring money or, you know, something on that matter, but I don't think it's necessary to see them in the first instance.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: But I guess the money is coming from the federal government in a lot of cases and it's the cutbacks over the years, the last number of years, that has seen us be where we are. So I think it's imperative that the federal government be asked to attend as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: To resolve this, and I agree, I think the federal government should be here as well, but they weren't requested initially or else we would have had them and we would have requested them. What I would probably suggest because this is a major issue, is that the committee look at the possibility of bringing in the federal government and maybe some other groups at a later date and the later date could be as early as the same month if we can get them in here that quick, because we have a tentative date set for agency, board and commission appointments on the 28^th. So we could bring them in on that date if we can get them here.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Well, I guess if we're talking about student debt and we're going to have everyone in the room, it would be nice to have all the parties in the room at the same time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We can put the request in if that's the wish of the committee, as long as we can get them here.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I would like to see the request go in.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed?

It is agreed.

[9:30 a.m.]

MS. MASSEY: The meeting will have to go longer. If they do say yes, they can make it, then the meeting will probably have to be adjusted.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Maybe we should look at who we do have here and spread it out to make sure we do have representation from all the groups that should be speaking on the subject matter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I think that's why I thought it might be good to go to two meetings because this is a major issue and it's a lot of information. I think it's great to have the federal government in here too. I don't think there's any disagreement with that from anybody but, number one, we've got to give them enough time to get here. We've got to give them enough notice and we have to make sure we've got enough time in the committee meeting to really ask all the questions we need to ask. So maybe we could leave it to the clerk, with the permission of the committee, to see if we can get the

federal government here this time and possibly extend it over into the 28^th meeting if we run out of time or if the committee's not satisfied they have enough time to ask the questions.

Does that sound like a reasonable approach? This is going to take awhile. Is that agreed? Okay, we'll look into that and we'll advise the members. So that sort of settles the 28^th meeting with the boards, agencies and commissions that we're going to talk to. We'll continue the student debt situation.

Due to the Christmas holidays it has been suggested that we meet on December 19^th and that's tentative. Does anyone have any problems with that to make our appointments? Is that satisfactory with everybody? Okay. Mr. MacKinnon, we have under new business a list of people who applied for the appointments. I will open that discussion again.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, as a new committee member, I see this whole process as being very "Mickey Mouse" if you don't have the entire list of applicants. It may make for a large binder, but by the same token we are making motions on appointments and we have no idea in the world who else has applied and what the qualifications are of those people. I don't understand the process. In any position that I've ever been in on school boards and council, or on school board and councils and what have you, we always looked at all the applicants. We didn't look at the successful ones. I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the process if we don't.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on that? Ms. Bolivar-Getson.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I guess when you look at people who apply for boards, not everyone qualifies for a specific board. These individuals are screened out even before the list gets to a minister's table, as to whether or not they fit the criteria that was there. When there are independent boards putting names forward, they already go through an independent screening in some cases and you only see the list at the end of those who are qualified.

MS. MASSEY: It's very interesting, I just love hearing my colleague talk about this because it reminds me of the first time that I came to one of these Human Resources Committee meetings and thought I had discovered something new and exciting that nobody else had noticed before about the lack of women, women versus men. I don't like to use the word versus, but what else are you going to say?

The first time I was ever handed one of those binders, I went through it and I came up with the same kinds of thought patterns, I guess. So it is good, I think, for all of us to see another set of fresh eyes coming in here and looking at the process. It can never

hurt to have somebody else point out maybe some of the things that we need to look at yet again at the way we're doing business here or we're not doing business.

I would like to point out again, Mr. Chairman, that we just had the subcommittee in here, I believe - and Diana might be able to correct me if she remembers the numbers more than I do - and there were less than 300 applicants who had applied. So we're not talking about thousands of applicants that we would have to flip through. I don't think it would be a bigger job for us and I'm certainly willing to take it on. I'd love to see the other resumés of the people who are applying for this. We've said that before so I just want to put my voice in there for that.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I don't think it is a matter of fresh eyes. I think it's a situation that is fundamentally wrong and it has to be righted in some way. I think that anyone who applies for serving on a commission or board expects that they are going to have their application reviewed by various parties and they're very naive if, in applying, they think it's being done in a total void or vacuum.

When someone applies for a board or commission, they should know that someone is going to be involved in scrutiny, and what better than elected representatives? I mean here we have recommendations coming forward and I have moved and seconded some of those and I have no idea in the world if there were better applicants there or not.

MS. WHALEN: If I might, just to pick up on the subject of our subcommittee meeting when we talked recently about advertising and trying to get more people to apply for these many positions that we need them for, because these are really important boards and commissions across the province. One of the things that we asked the clerk who came from the Executive Council, I believe, was to outline the whole process because I think that even sitting here we are the last step in a lengthy process, and I don't think that as members of the committee we fully understand how the applicants come in, how they are distributed, where they go and the whole flow chart that these applicants go through.

One of the things we complained about was it's taking far too long. When people apply they often don't hear anything for a year or their applications sit and there is no communication with those applicants. They very often don't reapply, even if they are very highly qualified, because of that length of time and their expectation that they will hear one way or the other, just as a courtesy.

Looking at the time lags, we said, let's try to better understand the whole process. I think that once we see that, that will help all of us to better understand because really, at the tail end here, you're right, we don't see the other applicants. We have no idea - I don't have confidence myself in how that's done. At this point we're in an awkward position at this committee because we have only the option to oppose. That means we

have to - if we are uncomfortable with a committee, your only choice is to delay an appointment or to oppose it for some reason. That's a little awkward, because these are individuals who have offered their time and they're offering to volunteer. Before we complain about the whole process, I say let's understand it a little better and perhaps then we'll see our role, and we can discuss our role.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a very good point. I think it's a little bit, maybe, different than what we're talking about, so I'll address that in a minute. In the meantime, I would like the solicitor to tell us what we're allowed and not allowed to do. I think that would clarify the situation.

MR. GORDON HEBB: Mr. Chairman, the terms of reference for the committee, on this function, are set out in Rule 60 of the Rules of the House. I won't read them in their entirety, and perhaps there's no need to read more than Term of Reference No. 4, which says, "The purpose of the Committee review is not to replace the function of Government Departments and Ministers in making appointments. Its function is to approve or not approve of the name before it, not to consider or recommend alternative names for appointments."

So under the Rules of the House, the committee doesn't have that choice. I'm not saying what the Rules of the House should say, but under the Rules of the House as they presently stand, the function of the committee can only be to review the name put forward by the government. There are some other things, the committee is entitled to interview the candidate who's recommended, but not to know the names or consider the other names that are put forward, other than to turn down the name and then put it back in the hands of the government, if they want to put that same name forward or somebody else. Other than that, they don't have that choice, as Mr. MacKinnon has suggested.

MS. MASSEY: I guess our only recourse is to find out how we can go about changing the terms of reference. It is disconcerting to sit here when the people who apply, the resumés that we do see, are usually fabulous but, sometimes, I have sat here and voted against certain applicants. I felt I had to because there were just so many men and not enough women. It's a level of frustration that we reach here on this committee that makes us do those kinds of things. It's unfair to the applicants who have applied when we do that, because they are volunteering their time, their effort and they are community citizens who want to do what they can for the province. It's unfair for us, in a way, to vote against them, but we've done it and we'll continue to do it that way until you give us another way to do it. By you, I mean government.

We're sort of stuck in the middle. Sometimes the frustration level rises to the point where we do vote against them, even though these resumés are great. I'd just like to say that, put it on the record.

MR. PARKER: I was just going to say, I have similar feelings as my colleagues have expressed around the table. It is sort of an awkward process. We're being asked to approve a list of names that may or may not be qualified. Their resumés look generally good, but how do we know who else is out there? How do we know who else may have applied? They also may be very good, but we have no idea who they are. There's something wrong, something fundamentally flawed with that process. We don't necessarily know who the other applicants were. I guess we're told how many applicants came forward, but we don't know their names. That's the real problem.

It was mentioned earlier about the complement of the board members, is that the whole board or just part of the board? There's some question about whether the names that are before us fill out the board, or if there are others who are serving one-year, two-year, three-year terms, that's sort of unclear to me at least, and the length of time that they're serving too, is it one year or longer? There are a lot of questions, but it's mainly the fact that we don't know who the other applicants were - maybe good, qualified applicants.

I think it would be nice to get a full explanation of the process here, obviously we feel it's not working like it should, and see how best we can change it to make it work better.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to extend this discussion for too long or belabour the situation that much, but we have a situation in all parts of rural Nova Scotia where out-migration is one of our most serious problems. I have been encouraging people, not people from my Party, but I've been encouraging people in general to apply for some of these boards. Dealing with a school teacher who went back to university and had worked a number of years in the fishing industry, got a B.A., got a B.Ed. and is now subbing and has been doing that for a few years and is thinking about going out to Alberta, I'm trying to think of ways to say, you know, maybe if you sub and you are more involved in the community and you get involved in a board or a commission or whatever. So I'm encouraging that particular person to apply for a position.

I will have no idea in the world if she has an application in, if she isn't one of the ones who is selected, no idea in the world. I know her qualifications are outstanding, but if they don't match up to whatever the criteria may be - I would like to see more rural people involved in these boards and commissions. I have no idea if the people I'm encouraging are going to have applications in.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: If you look at the information that we receive every time before we come to these meetings, there is a fact sheet, a board information chart before the resumés. It does say the board name, the Statute, the objectives, the board composition and the length of terms, and everything is outlined in there, so we do have

that information before us for every board that we just made appointments for. So I did want to clarify that we do have more information than we may think we do, in this book.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I think we're missing the point, the most important thing would be the names.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, it's not our mandate.

[9:45 a.m.]

MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Chairman, as a fill-in for my colleague, there seem to be two issues on the table. One is the process, which you can easily find and maybe feel a little more comfortable with if you bring the Clerk of the Executive Council in and just basically have described to you the process that happens when a name is received and how it finds its way to your desk in front of you, as the applicant.

The other issue is, unless we can change the Rules of the House, this is what we have. I think the first step might be, and I would make this a motion, that you bring in the Clerk of the Executive Council to give a full briefing on the actual steps that takes place when an application is received until it ends up in front of us as a committee. Then I guess there will be a longer discussion on whether or not we change the Rules of the House and how we do that, but I think that would be a good first step from this committee, so I would make that a motion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So moved. Do I have a seconder for that?

MR. MACKINNON: I second it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on that? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The other thing here that Ms. Massey brought up was special advertising for alumni. Do you want to take that to the subcommittee, Ms. Massey, as we continue our process with that? Would that be appropriate?

MS. MASSEY: That's a good thought.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have one other thing on the list here. We have a letter addressed from the Chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Seeing that we are going to do education - actually the first item we have on there, the Department of Education, higher education, delivery of the Student Loan Program, I

think we're going to be handling that in our next couple of meetings. The other one is the Learning for Life II update. What is the committee's wish on that? Do you want to consider it for awhile and I'll just respond back to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee indicating that we are presently looking at the Student Loan Program, and we'll consider the other one? Would that be appropriate? Thank you very much, we will do that.

Unless there's any other business, we stand adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 9:48 a.m.]