HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. Keith Colwell (Chairman)

Mr. Chuck Porter

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Diana Whalen

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

WITNESSES

Executive Council Office

Ms. Shealagh McGrath

Department of Environment and Labour

Mr. Shawn Mosher

Communications Nova Scotia

Ms. Terri Aker

Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations

Ms. Dianne Grant

Office of Economic Development

Ms. Sheila Henman

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2006

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

1:00 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Keith Colwell

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call the meeting to order. The first thing we're going to do is go around the table and do introductions.

[The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a couple of things on our agenda, our advertising strategy, but before we get to that, the different government departments have come in and each requested to make a brief presentation on what they think the problem is with getting people to serve on our boards or applying for boards, whatever the case may be. Would you like to start off?

MS. SHEILA HENMAN: I've been doing the administrative end for three ABCs, the Waterfront Development, Trade Centre, and Nova Scotia Film. I've found that over the years, historically, there has been a very low response from women. They're very high-profile boards, they're looking for senior level attributes from applicants. Sometimes when we have a number of women apply, they don't meet the criteria as established by the board. Our system is to have the applications reviewed by an independent review committee that only determines whether they meet the criteria, they do not recommend names at all. So that lists goes forward as meeting the criteria of the board.

I think the ad is, I would say, one way of attracting people. I think there may be some missed opportunities in reaching women's groups, perhaps advertising through the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women or some other venue where the membership is predominantly female focused.

I think the other thing that needs to be done is perhaps more work by the boards themselves, who come from various parts of Nova Scotia and who know who the leaders in the community are. Perhaps this is happening behind the scenes, I don't know. I don't see a lot of evidence of that in terms of total numbers.

The other thing that I would bring up is that it's difficult to tell, unless the names are clear, who is from a minority group or who may be a person with a disability, unless they self-identify, so that would be helpful as well - or if they're from an Aboriginal community. That's all I have.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Grant.

MS. DIANNE GRANT: A couple of things. I'm on the UNSM committee, the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities Women in Local Government Committee. This is a problem not only at the provincial level, but it's also a problem at the municipal level - a very low response rate from women for agencies, boards and commissions of every kind.

As far as Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations is concerned, in the past we've had very little response from women in particular, but also we've had very little response in general from most of our agencies, boards and commissions. Even ones like the Regional Assessment Appeal Court, the board members are all lawyers and in the past we have had to contact law firms and remind them that these board positions were available and to please look at the ad when it comes out because we just didn't have enough lawyers who were applying for the Assessment Appeal Court board in the past.

It's pretty much general for all of the boards that we're not getting enough applicants - not only not getting qualified applicants, but not getting enough applicants at all.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any suggestions?

MS. GRANT: I'm kind of at a loss as to how we're going to do this. How do we get more people to apply and, in particular, more women to apply? I'm just at a loss as to how we can do that, other than going out and talking to people and asking them to.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

MS. GRANT: Yes, it does.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sorry to interject here, but it's hard to believe that we aren't getting people to apply, because some of these boards pay and there always seems to be

a lot of interest when you're talking to people about it. But I think the interest dies and they don't bother applying, it's a shame.

MS. GRANT: I think one of the problems is the length of time it takes for their application to be processed, for one thing. When they see the ad in the paper they will apply and I think they're expecting to hear back within a week or so, whether or not they're going to be considered for the board. In some cases it takes six months for them to hear whether their application is even going forward from that point or not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So are you suggesting that possibly we might look at a different process to speed it up? I mean it's almost like a job application; people need to know because they have to work their lives around the time they're going to spend on a board.

MS. GRANT: That's possibly one solution. Another solution is maybe better communication with the applicants. Maybe if we send out letters for every application that's received and keep them informed throughout the process, that their application has reached this stage or this is what to expect next.

I know that's kind of labour-intensive, but a lot of the times they don't hear anything for months and sometimes if they're just aware of what's going on. In the past I've gotten a lot of phone calls from applicants who were calling to find out where their application was - has it just been neglected or is it still in the running or whatever.

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): One of the things that I've heard was that instead of running the ad once in that six-month period, with the ad going to a multitude of community papers and EastLink cable and all these different things, is to run it twice in that six-month period, one week and then the next week, in the six major newspapers and then in the interest newspapers. For instance, there is the Mi'kmaq Maliseet, Street Feat, Touch BASE, Progressive Choices women's magazine, and then there's this new BOOM Magazine for baby boomers, for those people who have more time. We have The Coast, and we also have Le Courrier - I don't know if I'm saying it right - the French newspaper. We're condensing the ad, as a cost-saving measure, because right now we're spending quite a few dollars expanding this ad all over the place - condensing it down to just those papers.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Can you just let the committee know what we're spending?

MRS. HENRY: Right now, this past ad that we just did for the Spring of 2006 was $15,830.00.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a lot of money for only 213 applicants, some of who would have applied for more than one position. So we're definitely not getting the

message out there, there's something desperately wrong. Ms. Aker, could you give your opinion on this, as well? This is going to be a very informal meeting today because we really want a discussion.

MS. TERRI AKER: I think, as far as the print that we're using with the dailies and the Mi'kmaq Maliseet, Le Courrier - and Touch BASE is also included in that - that's a good mix, but I think there's a loop there where we're not targeting specialty publications, like the Nova Scotia Business Journal. You have to look at your demographic, and your demographic is a higher-educated, higher-paid demographic. Possibly chamber journals, to get it out to the community - some of the chambers of commerce have a weekly or a monthly journal - to include it in that as well. Then specialty magazines such as Boom, Progressive Choices, Atlantic Business, and those types of publications. Right now it's just going mostly to your newspaper, with the exception of BOOM and Progressive Choices.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Any general comments or suggestions?

MS. AKER: Well, any little bit helps, so if what we're doing right now doesn't work, we'll have to revisit and look at the cost of running in these specialty publications, and look at the overall picture, and then the circulation figures. We can't make people apply, but we can certainly get the message out there more than it is now.

MRS. HENRY: This is on the government Web site, with links to the Executive Council site. Then when you click on a particular board, it gives you all the criteria. So that will stay in place, as well as the contact phone numbers and stuff. It's just trying to condense.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: I have a question. Do we know how often that site is hit? Does it have a counter on it or anything?

MS. SHEALAGH MCGRATH: No, I don't think there's a counter.

MS. MASSEY: We don't know if people are just sort of looking but then they just don't bother. Maybe if there was something on the Web site that people could put in a question, you know how sometimes there's a little spot there where you can put in some comments. I'm wondering, too, if you're talking about putting it in twice - are you saying put it in the major newspapers the one time, but the other time put it in the smaller community newspapers?

[1:15 p.m.]

MRS. HENRY: The six major papers, and then the interest papers . . .

MS. MASSEY: Like The Coast and those kinds of things.

MRS. HENRY: . . . and run it - well, it's a biannual ad, but instead of running it the one time in that six-month period, it would be one week, skip a week and then the next week in that six months. Then in the Fall, we do the same thing.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: The idea of frequency in advertising is usually the key thing, isn't it, because people will say, I didn't see it the one time it was out. If it's just once, there are a multitude of reasons why you might have missed it. I think that's where you're going, just a little bit more, or even if they thought of it the first week, the second week they act on it, like you would in advertising. More visibility.

MS. MASSEY: Is there any way to gear the ad to a target audience? So if you're putting it in The Coast, you gear the ad itself, you change the look of the ad, maybe didn't list all of the openings, but ones that were geared toward those who may have an interest, the group of people you're sending the ad to. I don't know, I'm not in marketing. It's definitely a problem that we have to fix. If we've spent that much money and only got 213 - is that 213 applicants with that much money?

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 213 applications, but some of them have applied for more than one position.

MS. MASSEY: Exactly.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So you don't have actually 213 applicants, even.

MS. WHALEN: That's just over 100. It's 91 and 28, isn't it? That's bad. I didn't realize that.

MS. AKER: With regarding to running the ad a second time in your daily papers, if you run it within the six days, you get a flop rate which is a discount, so it wouldn't be double, if you're looking at that price of what you paid for one run. It would not be double. There would be a discount there, 15 to 20 per cent off.

From past times, when we advertised with chamber journals, it's very inexpensive. It's an inexpensive way to get your message out to the chamber of commerce, and to businesses and associations within the specific communities. It's very inexpensive.

MS. WHALEN: So it's a good, reasonable choice to look at extending to.

MS. AKER: Yes. Like, sometimes a full page might be $200, you know, in the Pictou Chamber Journal. In the Antigonish Chamber of Commerce Newsletter, it might be $150. It's very inexpensive. It basically covers their costs.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. McGrath.

MS. SHEALAGH MCGRATH: Well, I receive the applications. When the ad runs, they come to us. I'm seeing a constant drop over the years. I also get phone calls from people saying, well, I applied back in the spring. Are you telling me I - and without coming out and saying that - I say, well, I just encourage them to apply again, that there will be other openings coming up. After a while, they get tired of hearing that and they just stop applying. I hear that comment often.

I'm just wondering if we're missing some avenue that we could take. I know you don't want them solicited but there are certain boards that we have to have a specific requirement to sit on that board. If you're not even getting the people who have those qualifications applying, you have to approach them - the group. I'm wondering if we're just overlooking, maybe, a cheaper way of reaching a bigger audience.

MS. MASSEY: I'm just wondering, do we know if other provinces are facing the same kind of dilemma, and maybe they found ways to fix it?

MS. MCGRATH: I don't know.

MS. MASSEY: We should find out if somebody is doing something differently and why we're not getting the results that we want.

MS. MCGRATH: I've never checked with other provinces.

MS. GRANT: The UNSM committee says the same problem is across the country.

MS. MASSEY: Is that right? Okay.

MS. WHALEN: Can I just ask which department you're with, Ms. McGrath?

MS. MCGRATH: It's Executive Council.

MS. WHALEN: Executive Council. I just didn't mark it down. You said it and I missed it. Thank you.

MS. MCGRATH: I've got to say that a lot of the newer boards that are being set up are expenses only and people are just too busy to volunteer their time now. That's a whole other issue, remuneration. I think that has a lot to do with it, also.

MS. MASSEY: Do you seem to get more applications for the ones that do have a stipend or a little bit of money attached? Have you ever looked at that?

MS. MCGRATH: There are a few boards that are quite popular.

MS. WHALEN: It's interesting, though, that the Waterfront Development Corporation and World Trade, which would be the high profile boards - you know, we're still hearing the numbers are down.

MS. HENMAN: Actually, when you look at - it's $100 a day, plus expenses and you're looking for people with senior level expertise. It's a day, either out of their own business or a day out of their community. The money is not what is drawing them to the board, I don't think.

MS. WHALEN: No, I would say it's high profile. There's quite a lot of prestige, I would think, to be part of that board.

MS. HENMAN: Absolutely. But I don't think it's the money.

MS. WHALEN: And if they're not getting the applicants. It just shows that for the lesser known boards, it's going to be harder and harder, isn't it, to attract people.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The fact is that somebody who has the quality that you probably want for those boards doesn't worry about the prestige.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, that's true.

MR. CHAIRMAN: They don't have to. They've already accomplished things in their lives and they're not worried about that.

MS. WHALEN: And we want them. (Laughter)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Those are the people we really need on those boards.

MS. MASSEY: So it's not an issue, or is it an issue, of people applying and not hearing back for six months and they give up. That sort of gets out in the community, so why bother applying, nobody calls you back. Is it a matter of people applying and then when they do hear back, they're turned down, they're not really given a reason - are people given a reason why, like you just don't meet the criteria?

MS. MCGRATH: When they apply, they get a thank you for replying letter. In the letter it states, you won't hear anything unless you are the successful applicant.

MS. MASSEY: We face an issue on the committee ourselves, because we only see the person whose name has actually come forward from the minister. We don't know - we don't see anybody else's resumés.

MS. HENMAN: I think the process is even longer. I think the process for the three boards that I have can be up to two years. I think perhaps a letter, in addition to Executive Council, that I should probably do is a letter saying, thank you for your application, your application will be considered active for a period of two years. Then, silence is a response. If they don't hear, then I think they could safely assume that, for whatever reason, there's no point in applying for those boards again.

MS. MASSEY: That would be a case of if somebody actually met the criteria but you had already filled it with somebody who met it to a higher degree, but they were pretty close and you're sort of going to keep it on file in case . . .

MS. HENMAN: There could be only one vacancy on a board, so the next round to fill the director's position could be another six months to a year. That's why the two years, to me, to be active makes sense, but they should have some sort of notification that that's the active period for their file.

MS. MASSEY: What if they don't get on that specific one that they wanted to get on? Maybe we could contact them and say, you weren't successful in getting on this one although you had a great resumé, but would you be interested in these other ones, or could you look at these as an option, the other ones that have a space. Just kind of try to nudge them in, because if they want to volunteer, maybe they weren't thinking that way but you could sort of nudge them in that direction. I'm wondering if we could do something like that.

MS. GRANT: I'm not sure there would be many boards that you would be able to do that with. Some of them call for very specific qualifications.

MS. WHALEN: You would also need a central person to be responsible to do that, because if one department is responsible for say just a handful of boards, maybe three or four, as you said, and another one has another basket of boards that would have some complementary skills that would be needed. You would need a central place, if there was going to be any management of those applicants to try to . . .

MS. MASSEY: It doesn't seem like we've got a whole lot to manage. From the looks of things, it's pretty dismal. I'm wondering about any idea at this point, I guess.

MS. WHALEN: I think the point that was made that people are losing interest, often very well-educated, highly qualified people in their own right, losing interest and just saying, look, I offered to give my time to the province and they're not interested. That leaves them with a bad taste, and they're probably saying to their friends, don't bother applying, you'll never hear back. That kind of sense that we're not open and receptive to those applicants, I think there's a mood out there of that.

Since we're sort of looking for solutions, if we could make it more timely, I think that's very important. Again, professional people expect to be treated professionally. If they just send in an application to the bureaucracy and it goes off into a black hole, essentially, then I'm sure they're not too impressed with the way it has been dealt with. I don't know how we can do that, because we've just heard that maybe two years is reasonable, given the way the board functions and the openings come up, but that isn't reasonable, I don't think, from the point of view of an applicant.

I know a lot of people who volunteer who consider, what am I going to do this year, I've finished that project, that's done. If you have been in schools, you say, well, my children are out of that section, and now I have extra time and I want to volunteer. There are a myriad of places they could call and go, and their time would be valued. So if they put the application in here, they are probably thinking this year, at least within the year, to make a commitment. It's too long.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mosher. We haven't been ignoring you, by the way.

MR. SHAWN MOSHER: No, that's quite okay.

MS. WHALEN: Everybody gets a chance.

MR. MOSHER: Thank you. I know with Environment and Labour, we have a lot of boards that have specific requirements for its members. For some of our boards we need a mechanical engineer or a power engineer doing mechanical work, different types, like an elevator operator and stuff like that, that are not being captured in the ad. We get people applying, for example, we had a university professor apply to sit on all these different boards, not knowing that we needed a power engineer for that board, because it wasn't in the ad. When we contacted her, she was quite upset that, well, if that's the way it is, why aren't you putting it in the ad? We can't very well say, well, cost savings and stuff like that.

We're doing outreach to our different stakeholder groups every time there is an ad. We send out a letter, along with the copy of the ad and we're looking into doing the electronic newsletters to different stakeholder groups to send out to all their members, and putting in hyperlinks for the Executive Council and things like that. It seems to be working a little bit better than just the ad alone, but we're still having a problem getting

the number of applications and getting them from people who are qualified to sit in the position that we have vacant.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder, too, I'm just looking at the ad here which is a whole lot better ad than the one I remember, and there are a lot of things here. Are all these openings, or are they just boards that we've got?

MRS. HENRY: Those are all vacancies.

MR. MOSHER: Those are boards with vacancies.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, but it doesn't really say anything about it, in any of them. I know if you start describing each one, you'd need half the newspaper to do it. If I decided I was going to apply for any of these boards - Health Promotion and Protection somewhere here - there's no place I can go on this and get all the information, is there?

MS. MCGRATH: If you went to the Executive Council Web site and clicked on it, it will walk you through to find the list. You find the board, double-click on the board and it opens up a criteria sheet. It tells you the Act, all the remuneration, the time, the term of appointment, criteria, what they're looking for. Now, that's for people with computers and I do get those who call and they don't get the newspaper and they don't have a computer, so this gentleman was heading for the library on Saturday. So we put in our fax number, our phone number and the Web site. We even installed a toll-free - I think that was your suggestion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You just mentioned libraries, is all this information - well, of course, libraries can look it up on a Web site, but we have a whole series of provincial libraries operated all different ways but a lot of people go to the library for information.

MS. MCGRATH: I attempted that about a year ago. I heard of a mass fax. I had never heard of it before, so I spent a day doing research on the Internet trying to get Web addresses so that maybe I could put them into a group and just bring up the group, attach the ad. I don't know how that goes over. I did it for a year, I can't say I saw a spike in the numbers. I did it for libraries, university foundations, faculty of the different universities and I suppose you could even do it for Health.

[1:30 p.m.]

MS. MASSEY: If you're doing that, could you send it to the schools? You were saying before the meeting started that a lot of the places you find, especially where we're not getting a lot of women, we're getting fewer women than men applying for them, and you know the school budget councils and the home and schools are really, the majority of the time, run by women. A lot of times, this is where you find your community

activists who are really interested in what's going on in the community and in government. So if there's some way that we can hook up to the school system.

MS. WHALEN: I found it interesting, Mr. Mosher, what you said about sending a letter. You have identified those groups that would have the skills you need for those very specific boards, right?

MR. MOSHER: Yes.

MS. WHALEN: And you seem to have - you have to be an elevator operator, that's pretty specific. But knowing them and sending it out with a letter, is that a new process?

MR. MOSHER: I've been doing the appointment process for about five years with Environment and Labour, and we've been doing it for the entire time. Our stakeholder group does grow every year, depending on the boards that we have. Sometimes we have boards taken away and it shrinks a little bit, but we do target specific groups almost to the point of begging them to apply.

MS. WHALEN: But I think that personal touch, the letter coming along with the ad to a group, that should start to address the fact that the ads are pretty impersonal, and you're still saying that your numbers of applicants are down?

MR. MOSHER: They're way down.

MS. WHALEN: In the five years you've been looking after it, have they been declining?

MR. MOSHER: When I first came to the appointment process - I would say we had lost about half the applicants from five years ago to now.

MS. WHALEN: Even though you've used this personal touch.

MS. GRANT: I'm wondering if perhaps taking a different approach than the ad might make a difference. I'm thinking along the lines of HRM when they have a new season of recreation programs come out they have an insert in the paper that describes all the programs and when they're starting and so on. I'm wondering if we did a little booklet like that, with all the different boards, with a bit of a description of the board, the qualifications, and put it as an insert in the paper so it wouldn't get tossed out the day that it was published. Maybe people would take the insert and hang onto it for awhile and look at it. It would be available in libraries and schools and so on, too.

MS. WHALEN: You could have some testimonials, too - I served on this board and it was a great experience.

MS. GRANT: Some photographs, especially for women, photographs of women who have served on the boards or whatever.

MS. MASSEY: That's true because when you get that little thing from Cole Harbour Place or any of those places, you sort of stick it in a drawer and then Continuing Education, you get it out and you . . .

MR. CHUCK PORTER: That's a very good idea and I had made some notes a few minutes ago with regard to the percentage of readers of that paper, do we really know what that percentage is. I know when we talked about sending it out twice, it they're not reading it or taking interest the first time, I doubt very much that they're going to see it the second time, they're just going to pass it.

I had "flyers" written down there. The flyer system in this province - maybe that booklet idea would be better off. In our area they go out on Saturdays, I don't know about area, but putting it out because people do tend to flip through them and look for certain things, even though they may throw away one particular flyer, they do look at them all and they'll pick out what they want, if it's designed well enough and it's attractive enough and it catches your eye because that's what you need in any marketing, I think.

Something like that with detailed information, because I think there's a big problem with just listing off things and saying, this is available, okay, I probably wouldn't qualify anyway, because it doesn't detail out what I need in a resumé. I think we need to get that out there. For $15,000, almost $16,000 a year, I think we could have a pretty good kick at some good advertising, but I think it needs to go out and it needs to reach everybody.

I know we aren't wanting to target certain groups or whatever, but I think those people would be deterred anyway because they will read the details, they will know what kind of resumé they have to have and they'll say, I don't qualify anyway so I'm not going to apply. It's that other group that we're targeting: you know what? I do meet that, maybe I should take a chance and submit.

MS. MASSEY: Terri, do you have any idea how much that would cost?

MS. AKER: I just priced it. To reach those flyer packs in The ChronicleHerald and that's full circulation, that would be subscribers, not newsstands, but the flyer packs that come that are thrown in your driveway on Saturday or Sunday, is about $15,000, $16,000, plus tax.

MR. CHAIRMAN: But then you've got to print them as well.

MS. AKER: You have your cost of producing the book on top of that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's not bad, actually.

MS. MASSEY: You're talking about a flyer pack there, though, are you?

MS. AKER: Yes, a flyer pack and Herald subscription inserted in the paper to subscribers throughout the province, and then in the flyer packs as well. It reaches 247,000 homes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: About half a million people, roughly.

MS. AKER: Yes, we've had great success with them.

MS. MASSEY: Do you have numbers on the booklet idea that . . .

MS. WHALEN: To print it? Yes. The idea of a little booklet, if it was . . .

MS. MASSEY: If Cole Harbour Place can do it, I don't know how wide a range they have, certainly it wouldn't be the same.

MS. AKER: I'm not sure about production costs, that you would have to check into. I do know we ran one for the Department of Education. I could find out how much it cost and get a sample shipped over. I think that was about a 12-page publication on a good-quality news stock, not the dirty kind, but the nice, white-type paper, and it was folded. They have to be under a certain gram weight, a minimum and a maximum. You can get them quite large, as far as - I think 90 grams is the highest that you use. So your cost, your expense is going to be producing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The only thing I was thinking, too, as we were talking about this is, when we ask people to send a resumé in, a resumé for a board is different from one you would send for a job application. On the ones we see here, probably in some cases there's way too much information that really isn't applicable. Some other applications don't have enough.

Would it be suitable in these things to make it standard, like an application form which would ask the specific questions that we would want answered? It would be a lot easier. Then the people can come in and give the information that's really needed. Then, instead of having to struggle and sit down at the computer or get someone to write an application or a resumé up for you, here it is, just fill in the blanks and send it in. It would make it a lot easier for people, and we would have, specifically, the information

we need to make a decision. I think that would make it easier for people, too, because people are busy, they don't have time for these things. I know I help people write resumés all the time, and they are lost. They're totally lost when it comes to doing resumés.

MS. MASSEY: Right now, can you apply on-line?

MS. MCGRATH: We do that for the adjudicative boards, because they do want to have specific areas answered. So they target just exactly what they want the people to answer. We have gone that far with the adjudicative boards. We talked about it for the non-adjudicative boards, but it hasn't been done yet.

MR. CHAIRMAN: What we should probably, with the concurrence of our committee, is maybe look at doing a flyer, like you suggested, see what the cost is, and see what circulation we get, see if maybe we can get other locations, too, maybe in Cape Breton, in the Cape Breton Post, maybe have the same deal, I don't know. Look at those options and see exactly what it would cost to do that. I really think an application form, a generic one that says what board you're applying for and all the relevant information, and a few lines, what your experience is. You can always check that out when they come in, or call them for more information if you need it. That may make it easier. If someone is really busy, they don't have time to spend three hours getting a resumé together that doesn't have even half the information you want anyway. So we could do something like that.

We're spending a lot of money now and not getting results, so what does the committee think? We have to make a decision to move forward.

MS. MASSEY: I think we need to find out - that's right, look at some other options if what we're doing is not getting the results. Looking for those other options and price tags is going to be helpful. It still doesn't address that we're not getting women on these ABCs. I think that's a whole other topic, really. I think there are some issues there. I agree - information. We'll have to stick with what we're doing for now, I guess.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I take your point very well, because we do need more women to apply for these positions and get the positions. But if we make it easier for them to apply, hopefully more people in general will apply and more women. Then we can make sure that we get women appointed to the boards.

MS. MASSEY: I really like the booklet idea, something that you can keep in a drawer and take out and look at.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would someone like to make a motion along these lines?

MS. WHALEN: I think there's more for us to do, certainly, but I think one motion would be that we ask for the costing of a flyer insert that would be like a booklet form, that would allow us to give more information on the boards, and also generate some excitement about what it's like to serve on a board, how that's good, what you learn and what you contribute. I think that would be very positive, so I'd like to make a motion that we ask for the full costing of what that would be.

I like the idea of a standard application . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do I have a seconder for that?

MR. PORTER: Seconded.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. WHALEN: The idea of a standard application, I don't . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it another motion?

MS. WHALEN: It's another motion, if you'd like one. I'd like to move that we have one prepared, because I think a lot of people who are busy working haven't updated their CVs in a long time, it just becomes a nuisance. They might be interested but they don't have time, as you said, to do so. There are others who might be - as we talked about, if we want to get into things like the schools and the PTAs, there may be a lot of women serving there who don't have one up to date. Again, it's just a question of, they may not have the time or know how to go about doing it. So a standard application really removes one barrier for a lot of people, regardless of their situation.

I like the idea of getting one in place that would serve that purpose, because it would allow you - first, it would be a way to screen people, and you could always go back for more information.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you also make that a motion, to come up with a standard one that could either be in the booklet, or apply on-line, if that's possible, and you just fill in the blanks and apply on-line?

MS. MASSEY: I don't think you need all those details in the motion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I think it's important. Maybe it should be in the motion to look at options of applications under a standard form.

MS. WHALEN: Where we could use it, where they could be available. I definitely think we should, as a committee, have a look at a standard application form, just have somebody put their mind to the basic questions we need answered, so that people could quickly fill one in, and it would serve the purpose of the departments that need to do a quick screening. It would have to have the information you need in your first go-rounds, and more could always be added, as I say. It would be another way to have more communication with them, because if a first one comes in and you acknowledge it and some are asked for further information, it creates more of a loop.

I'll just make the motion now, that we ask that the form of a standard application be developed and brought back to the committee, with recommendations or suggestions of where and how they could be circulated.

MS. MASSEY: Is there any way that we can sort of outline some of the issues that we've heard at this committee meeting today?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's finish this motion, first. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. MASSEY: I'm just wondering, is there any way we can sort of incorporate some of the other ideas that have been discussed by various people here today and some of the issues that we've sort of highlighted, and get it to the appropriate person?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Or persons.

MS. MASSEY: I think one of the issues, which is very interesting, is the length of time to process these applications. That's one of the issues. So if we just sort of look at the minutes later on, the Hansard - are they taking minutes? Great.

MS. WHALEN: I definitely think the length of time is a real problem, and even speaking from years ago, I had applied, when I was at home with my children and not working, to a city one - and you were mentioning it's just the same with city ones - and I never heard anything back at all. I didn't apply a second time, ever. I knew I had a good educational background and lots to contribute, and I thought, fine.

MS. MASSEY: I applied, too.

MS. WHALEN: People must feel that way, I've done it, I went through the motions, and I didn't even get acknowledged or anything. I think that keeping in touch and going back to people and saying, not this time but we're very interested in you, something that encourages them not to just decide it's who you know and not what you

know, that sort of thing. That's sort of how I came away feeling, and that was years ago. I think that communication link has to be there, so even if we could address, one, keeping in better touch, even if there's no way to address the time span, and the second one would be we should be trying to ask departments, how can we look at a faster turnaround?

It isn't the committee that's the problem. Applications come here once a month, we meet regularly. I often hear from people who say the library boards are desperate for the province to make their appointments, or the health boards, where people's terms have finished and there's this real need to get people in place. They're very anxious, and yet the names aren't coming to us here at the committee level. There's something happening in the departments that's slowing it down, and it's not coming through. That becomes a problem at a community level when those boards aren't filled.

[1:45 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Grant.

MS. GRANT: I just have one question. If the committee decides to go with a booklet instead of the ad, is there going to be any problem as far as the legislation is concerned on how these are supposed to be advertised? Is there a legislative requirement?

MR. CHAIRMAN: We can investigate that with Legislative Counsel. We can do that, that's very easy for us to do. We can check that out, and if there is a problem, then we'll have to address it in some way.

MS. WHALEN: The third thing that was mentioned was the libraries, today. I believe the chairman raised that. It was mentioned that they had received a blanket e-mail. I think if these were available in hard copy at libraries, a lot of people come in and they do spend time there. I know at the one in our neighbourhood, they come in to do work but they also look around and see what's new and read what's on the bulletin board. It's a real connector to what's happening. I think people would pick it up there, and they also have access to computers there. But some way to get the library - and that can be done through their boards probably - to communicate with all the branches in each of their zones. I'm not sure how many library boards we have in the province. HRM has 14 libraries within their system, so that would get out to every community in HRM. If each of the library boards did that, we'd be able to reach into the community.

I think the e-mail alone isn't enough because the librarians and the people in charge there need to understand it themselves, so that they'll be aware of it and be able to put it in the right place and talk to people about it. Again, it's the personal touch so either we could do the outreach or it could be done through the library boards

themselves. I think they are one of our best community resources if we want to get right to the ground and get a wide cross-section of people. So I think that should be looked at.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, with some suggestions made about the length of time and everything, maybe we should - I should know how the system works and I probably do because I've been on both sides of this whole thing, both in Cabinet and as an MLA and the whole nine yards, and people bugging me that they want to get on a board and all those things that aren't necessarily always fun. I wonder, Ms. McGrath, if you could maybe write a chronological order for us and the committee of how this works, like the ad goes in, you get it and how it all works, just generically.

MS. MCGRATH: Yes, sure.

MS. WHALEN: Follow on through, basically.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, follow on through, for the committee members. So that may help us, as well, when we look at how we're going to advertise these and how it's going to work. Maybe at that point in the chronological order we can maybe, as a committee - with the committee's concurrence, of course - write a letter to whoever is ultimately responsible - and I believe that in each department it's the minister and the senior staff - and ask them if we can shorten these times up, from the time they get the application in, maybe the committee will decide not to accept that application that's older than two years, or six months old or something like that.

I'm just saying that not to set any rules down, but some way we can - I know they want to get those appointments filled and there are sometimes difficulties, but some way we can accelerate the process and not meddle in the process, because I don't think our committee should meddle in the process. We should make sure there is some way we can accelerate it so we get their boards filled and we get more applicants in to do that. So if you would be kind enough to forward that to the committee, I would greatly appreciate it.

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple more things I would like to raise today, since we're just examining this. In the applications when we receive them, one of the questions in the cover sheet says, were you asked to apply for this board? We actually asked that question so that the people say yes or no if they were. I have not really considered that. We talked today about sometimes the only way to get qualified people is to try to do the personal touch and to encourage people to put their names in. Do we frown on the fact that they've been asked? Who decided that we would even ask that question, I guess is what I'm wondering about?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have no idea.

MS. WHALEN: And is it a pertinent question for the committee?

MRS. HENRY: That question would have been put on the application form back in 1993 when this whole process . . .

MS. WHALEN: When it began? Okay.

MRS. HENRY: I think it's part of the solicitation question . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: It could be.

MS. WHALEN: It's not regarded as a negative, though, if the answer is yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, maybe.

MS. WHALEN: Well, then you have to say, who asked you to put your name on and maybe that's it. It's an odd thing that our aim is to increase participation and yet we're asking a question that we really look askance at, if you've been encouraged. So if you haven't done it of your own motivation, all by yourself, we frown on it - perhaps we frown on it, let's put it that way.

MS. MASSEY: I'm not sure how we look at that. The thing is, if somebody ticks it off, yes, I was asked or, no, I wasn't, there's not enough information there for us to - who asked you, you know, did your . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Why were you asked?

MS. MASSEY: Yes, it opens up . . .

MS. MCGRATH: Are those the questions in the four main guidelines?

MS. MASSEY: It's the questions that we see when . . .

MS. WHALEN: It's a standard cover sheet, almost, that seems to be on each of the applications.

MS. MCGRATH: Well, that's not being filled out by the actual applicant, that's being prepared by the department.

MR. MOSHER: Yes, that's being filled out by the department.

MS. MASSEY: It says, was the applicant asked?

MS. WHALEN: I should have it in front of me, maybe you have a copy of what it is, but it's there for each one and it's just a question that makes me wonder why we ask it if, in fact, we're anxious to get more people on board.

MS. MASSEY: You bring up some good points because maybe we need to look at that again to find out - that might be a good tool, to figure out who is applying and sort of the process they've gone through. A lot of times we complain there's not enough information there for us.

MS. MCGRATH: Well, there was talk a few years back to combine those two forms into one because they do ask similar questions. That is a committee form. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe we should review the form. That's not a bad idea.

MS. MASSEY: Maybe we could put that on the agenda at some point and just have a brainstorming about that. We did have it changed at one point where it now says - you know, it separates female and male, which helps us to sort of see the . . .

MR. MOSHER: There would have been guidelines that they changed, the total number of applications, and then the number that were male and the number that were female.

MS. WHALEN: Right. And the department answers that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey, if you would like to suggest, maybe we could have another subcommittee meeting to discuss this.

MS. MASSEY: I would like to suggest or make a motion that the Human Resources Committee strike a subcommittee to look at the application. I don't know the proper word for it, what's it called?

MS. WHALEN: Sample guidelines, it says, and there are 13 questions on it.

MS. MASSEY: Look at the sample guidelines. Is that what's . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. I don't think we have to form another committee. I think we just have to use the existing subcommittee.

MS. WHALEN: Yes, but just have another meeting to look at that.

MS. MASSEY: We could use this committee, yes.

MS. WHALEN: Particularly with the two forms that may be duplicating a little bit.

MS. MASSEY: So we could have another meeting, just to look at . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for this, prior to any advertising being changed. Then, maybe, it might tie together. Would that be appropriate?

MS. WHALEN: That's right. I have one other question. Okay, finish that one.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, do I have a seconder for that motion?

MS. WHALEN: I'll second that motion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. WHALEN: The final question that I have, which may be a bit beyond the purview of this committee - but there are over 100 agencies, boards and commissions. I'm not sure of the total number but there is a long list. I wonder if they have been rationalized. Mr. Mosher, you mentioned that it has changed a bit over time. Some have come and some have gone. Could we ask departments to reconsider, are these committees still meeting, are they still pertinent? I mean, I'm just wondering if we need all 100 and . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not positive that's within our mandate to do. We're here and I would like to, maybe, get the solicitor's view on this because the departments make these up for particular reasons. They have particular reasons to do them and there are all different reasons for each department. I don't think that we should, probably, look at that at this point but, again, I would like to see the solicitor's view on that, to see if it's something we can do before we move in that direction.

MS. WHALEN: All right, fair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: These appointments we make, based on the recommendations from departments, hopefully they get the best possible people and we weed out people here who we don't think are the best possible. That's an issue, I think. My own personal opinion is that it's probably an issue that the government should decide themselves. I will ask the question of the solicitor and bring the answer back.

MS. WHALEN: My thought is just, if some on that long list are not really active anymore, and so on, that we should just make sure that we're focusing on the ones that are. That would be an internal - perhaps for the individual departments to deal with. I will leave it until we hear the legal response.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there anything else?

MS. HENMAN: There's just one other point. I've always thought, perhaps, it would be a good piece of information to have in the ad and the general ad, to let people know that you can't serve on more than one ABC at a time. This would affect the length of time that your application is in the queue somewhere. If you're selected to serve on a board and you're selected to serve for, say, two years or three years, you really have to apply again, if your active application is, say, two years. So once you finish serving on a particular board you would have to reapply. People don't know that.

MS. MCGRATH: No, it's not put out there. It's sort of just a directive that they like to follow, instead of having one person on three boards, just trying to make it more even for people. The only drawback to that would be they only apply for one board and they don't qualify; whereas, they might have qualified for another if they had applied to a different one. We thought about that for awhile. We didn't bother putting it in the ad, because we didn't want to limit someone getting an appointment at all for the sake of applying to the wrong board.

MR. PORTER: So if it's a two-year appointment, at 18 months do you say, okay, this is coming up in six months? Is that the time to apply? If you're looking at a lengthy time frame, I guess maybe we should be telling people that . . .

MS. MASSEY: It's like making a dentist appointment.

MR. PORTER: Exactly. If you're interested in staying on this committee, then perhaps you should be applying now so that you are notified in advance, or if you're not, then the opportunity is now open to apply for another. I think the time issue is a very serious issue, obviously, and the time it takes to get appointed and go through the process.

MS. MCGRATH: I receive applications year-round, regardless of these ads. I get applications, it's an ongoing process. It's just, this ad tells the people exactly which boards have openings in the next six months. That's a problem, our ads ran last Saturday, but we're covering the next six months. That also adds to that long time frame. We might be advertising the Housing Authority in Annapolis Valley, but the next vacancy isn't until January, so that adds to that time.

MS. MASSEY: So they're not going to be put on it, even if they meet the criteria, until that's vacant.

MS. MCGRATH: We couldn't afford to advertise every . . .

MS. MASSEY: Just because it's vacant at the actual time . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: But if you did the booklet, you could do that. You could be more definitive about what it is, the whole nine yards. The booklet could probably be good for a year, if you printed it properly with all the correct dates, on this date, this opening is going to be here, but you have to apply six months in advance, or whatever the departments think is appropriate.

MS. MCGRATH: Remember, I have a 15-year-old database. (Laughter)

MS. AKER: Can I suggest something? It would be nice, also, to look at revamping the ad to something that's quite a feel good, more graphic image oriented, and drive people to a Web site. I'm just looking back, we did this campaign for adoption last November. We ran photos in a series of a four-week campaign. That drove the adoption rate up tremendously, because people were attracted to the images and they read the little bit of information we had on the ad. The information was to drive them to a 1-800 number for more information and to a Web site about adoptions.

With this type of thing, you could almost run pictures of professionals who have sat on boards. It doesn't have to be a big ad, but something very simple with very little information that will catch their eye and make them want to go look and be like that person in the picture. Something like that.

MS. MASSEY: Maybe if it turns out that it's something we want to do, if you get the costing on the booklet or the flier, some of those options, and then you go towards that, which is something that's concrete and you can keep in your home, then if you still do the ad, it could be something smaller with just like what you're talking about, not trying to fit tons of information in this one little block, but you could do something more eye-catching. That sounds like a good option, too, doesn't it?

[2:00 p.m.]

MS. AKER: People don't have time to read all the information. They want to look at the paper really quickly.

MS. MASSEY: Know where to go to get the rest of the information, I guess, yes, that's interesting, too.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think this booklet idea really has some merit, especially if you can make it long-lasting, so maybe it's a yearly booklet we put out. In that way, there are all kinds of ways to distribute it, through the papers like we talked about and other things. Then it gives everybody the information, what it's about, how you apply, and graphically nice, and then be able to go to a Web site and get more information if you want it, or directly to a department and get information, if it's something very specific. I think that would be a very useful tool.

People keep booklets, they do keep them. I know I keep all kinds of booklets that come into my office, and I take them to my office and I put on them "Free." They just continually disappear, which is good for people who are interested in things. I think it's something that would work. Again, what the cost is and whether we get the budget to do it, and all those things, we just have to really get a fix on it.

MS. HENMAN: This is a suggestion. Maybe some brainstorming around frequently-asked questions that would cover the range of boards because someone might say, well, if I don't have a university degree or I'm not in a profession, am I eligible to serve on any of these boards? That might be a question. Then you're questioned about, we're looking for elevator operators, we're looking for that sort of range of skill sets and people say okay, great, there is something here that I can apply for. But I think you don't want to raise expectations where they're unrealistic and I think the linking back to the ABC's board criteria which says, we are looking for, I think needs to be up to date, needs to be very clear so that it needs to be a good match of skills and needs between the applicant and the board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is some of that on the Web site now, but maybe we should review it.

MS. HENMAN: Clearer instructions have to get there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And maybe more specific to each application, especially when it's not just a generic one. I mean if you need an elevator operator, you have to have an elevator operator and it's no good for me to apply because I don't know anything about elevators except that they go up and down and that's about it. Basically that's what you need, you need someone who has the expertise.

Maybe we should look at our Web site, too, in this whole process as we go through this, and make sure that it's friendly and see if we need anything that's changed there as well, and tie this all together. If you make it easy for people, they'll do it, to start. Once they get interested, you won't have any problem.

MS. WHALEN: I have just one further question which was raised earlier, but it was looking at what other provinces might be doing. They must be facing a similar

challenge in getting people engaged. I'm just wondering if the committee feels we should do at least some scan of other jurisdictions, because we might find some really good ideas. I mean if other provinces have dealt with this, very likely they've taken some other routes or tried something different.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a good idea.

MS. WHALEN: Ms. Massey mentioned it, but I think it often is a good idea. Again, it's just being able to have somebody take the time to do that. If they contacted, it would probably be through, I would imagine it's the Executive Council in each province.

MS. MASSEY: Even just going on the other provinces' Web sites, the same way as going on ours.

MS. WHALEN: Maybe even a scan on the Web sites might be a good way to see what the process is as well, you're right, we wouldn't even have to go directly.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll task our caseload system here. (Interruptions)

MS. WHALEN: That's why I hesitate to mention it. I know our Committees Office is busy.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll investigate that, how does that sound?

MS. MCGRATH: We had a conference last fall of all clerks of Executive Councils and we hosted them here and they couldn't believe our appointment process, how open it was. They don't have anything set up like this at all, so I don't know . . .

MS. WHALEN: You're not expecting we'll find that they're doing . . .

MS. MCGRATH: Every province is different. They're still back in the stages of picking and choosing.

MS. WHALEN: I think that's positive for us, in the sense that we do have a more open process and we're trying really hard to engage Nova Scotians and so I think that's encouraging for me to hear. I wouldn't have expected that we were ahead of the curve but if we are, then maybe we'll be paving the way for some other provinces to look at what we're doing.

MS. AKER: I can certainly call Communications New Brunswick and find out what their team is doing, as far as advertising strategy, and get a feel of what's being done up there.

MS. WHALEN: That would be a great help, if you could, and if you'd just let Darlene know, then we could bring it back to the committee. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Or if any of your counterparts that you're talking to in any other departments have any ideas, just feed them back through Darlene. We're here to make this work, that's what we're here for. Who knows better than the people who live with it every day and work with it every day.

Is there anything else? That being said, a motion to adjourn would be in order.

MS. WHALEN: I so move.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We stand adjourned

[The subcommittee adjourned at 2:05 p.m.]