HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Service

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. Keith Colwell (Chairman)

Hon. Carolyn Bolivar-Getson

Mr. Alfred MacLeod

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon

Mr. Charles Parker

Ms. Joan Massey

Ms. Diana Whalen

Mr. Leo Glavine

[Mr. Alfred MacLeod was replaced by Mr. Keith Bain.]

[Mr. Clarrie MacKinnon was replaced by Mr. Percy Paris.]

[Mr. Leo Glavine was replaced by Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay).]

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

WITNESSES

Executive Council

Mr. Bob Abbott

Executive Director, Operations

Mr. Paul LaFleche

Secretary/Clerk

Dexter Training Institute

Mr. Paul MacDonald

Director, Human Resources and Safety

Ms. Shalini Richards

Recruitment and Development Coordinator

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2006

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

1:00 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Keith Colwell

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call the meeting to order. The first thing we'll do is go through our appointments to agencies, boards and commissions. Before we do that, we'll do the introductions. We'll start with Mr. Theriault.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The first thing we're going to move forward with is the appointments to agencies, boards and commissions.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Community Services, to the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre, I so move Harold Rafuse as chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Education, to the Acadia University Foundation, I so move Susan Ueffing as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

HON. CAROLYN BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Education, to the Acadia University Board of Governors, I so move Janet Kirk, Thomas Raddall and Ronald Smith as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Education, the Cosmetology Provincial Examining and Licensing Committee, I so move Melanie MacDonald as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Education, to the Annapolis Valley Library Board, I so move Terri Milton as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. KEITH BAIN: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Education, to the Cape Breton Library Board, I so move Constance Boone as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Education, to the Western Counties Library Board, I so move Suzanne White as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Justice, to the Law Foundation of Nova Scotia Board of Governors, I so move Joshua Arnold as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

That concludes our business with appointments to agencies, boards and commissions for the day.

The next thing on our agenda is we requested that Mr. Bob Abbott and Mr. Paul LaFleche join us for some discussion on how the appointment process is done, as requested by the committee members. You have a letter that you responded to, and we appreciate your attendance today. Maybe you could just introduce yourselves and indicate your position with the government, if you don't mind.

MR. PAUL LAFLECHE: I'm Paul LaFleche, the Clerk and Secretary to the Executive Council, those are two separate positions that cover different aspects of this appointment process. Bob Abbott is the Executive Director of Executive Council Operations. Mr. Abbott assumed that position, I believe, on April 1, 2005. He is the person actually in charge of running the division, so to speak, that takes care of the process for government for the appointments to adjudicative and non-adjudicative boards, and also ensures that other appointments that by convention of Rule 60 would be submitted to this committee for review come here.

MR. BOB ABBOTT: All of that is true, Mr. Chairman. (Laughter)

MR. LAFLECHE: Thirty minutes of coaching and he got there. (Laughter)

MR. ABBOTT: Somehow I feel that was a set-up, but we'll see.

MR. LAFLECHE: Can I ask who Mrs. Henry is?

MR. CHAIRMAN: She's the clerk of our committee.

MR. LAFLECHE: And who are the other people in the room? Just so I know.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe we could go around for introductions.

MR. LAFLECHE: I know who the MLAs are. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we'll go around with the MLAs again. We typically don't introduce the other people in the room. Maybe we'll start over again with the MLAs, because we've had some additions and some changes in people here.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming today. I know some of our members have some questions to ask. We have yourselves and we have another invited guest today as well. So it's really up to the pleasure of the committee how we would like to proceed today, but I think we would probably start with maybe some questions from our committee members, because I know we had a lot of questions when these gentlemen weren't here, so I'm sure there are a lot of questions you can ask while they are here. Who would like to start? Ms. Massey.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: Thank you for coming in this afternoon. Since being on this committee since 2003, I think the main issue - there have been two issues that I think we've sort of focused on. One was how are we getting people onto these agencies, boards and commissions, through advertising? We've struck an ad hoc committee, and I think we are dealing with that. We can see even in today's appointments that only somewhere around 22 people applied for 10 positions that were available. I think it's an issue that we'll continue, as an ad hoc committee, to look at, and as this committee.

I think the other issue has been in the transparency of the operations of the committee. We were given, a couple of weeks ago, the ABC appointment process, which is this document here. I understand that was put in place in 1993. The part that's missing from there, one of the parts - because we have been able to make some adjustments in that we can see how many, for example, men and how many women have applied when x number of people apply to each one of these positions.

But what we're still not able to see is the resumés of those very few people who do apply to them. I think it has been an issue for all of us for quite a while, and then some of the new MLAs from the last election are just discovering it for the first time. For example, the ones from the NDP who sit on this committee - he's not able to be here today - for example, he was talking about how in his community different people will approach you and say, what can I do to get involved in the way the province is run? This is one of the ways people can get involved.

But we have no way of knowing other than - it's almost like the process is finished and we're sort of sometimes feeling like rubber stamps. I know that our honourable chairman said it quite well at the last meeting, that really our only recourse is to vote no at the end. Sometimes I think we do get frustrated here and we do vote no, even though the person who is - because we only see that end result, that one resumé.

They are fantastic resumés, they are fantastic people, they've put their name forward to do something for the province.

So you're making a decision based on not seeing the other people who put their names forward in the process. At some level, to me anyway, it just doesn't make sense. I know if this process was put in place in 1993, then maybe it's time - and I believe that from what I understand, it was even less of a transparent process before then, but now it's almost 2007 and maybe it's time to do things in a different light.

So if you can tell us again or tell us for the first time why we can't see the names of the other people who have applied - people aren't applying for these things in droves. Last year I think we had less than maybe 300 people apply throughout the whole year and we're trying to address that issue through different means of advertising. Maybe one of the reasons people aren't applying is because they feel that it's just a government - they are just people who are appointed by the government and friends of the government or people the government knows, and what's the point in putting my name forward and going through all that? That's what I'd like to hear you folks talk about this morning.

MR. LAFLECHE: Do you want to talk, Bob? I just want to make sure we got a question, what the exact question is.

MS. MASSEY: Why can't we see the names of the other people who have applied?

MR. ABBOTT: I think, if I might, there are two parts to your question. I'm going to attempt one part and I'm going to ask Paul to address the second part.

Part I, the process. This process was put in place in 1993. The process was put in place by members of the House of Assembly, not by people such as myself - civil servants. I am a civil servant and have been since 1975. My job is to follow the process that has been put in place by members of the House of Assembly. I believe that's what we're doing, that's what we did then and that's what we're doing today. We are following the process that has been established by the members of the House of Assembly.

[1:15 p.m.]

The process has been reviewed and has been scrutinized over the years by many committees sitting here - the committees of the House, the HR Committee of the House. It's not for us to change the process. If the process is to be changed, it has to be changed by the members of the House of Assembly. We are not empowered to make those changes.

The process, again, has been scrutinized; it has been questioned. I believe, from a personal perspective, the process is fair and it's getting qualified people. The advertisements go out, they are in the newspapers, they are in trade magazines, they go to special interest groups. The departments are free to advertise in any manner they so choose. The applications come back to the Executive Council Office. We perform a coordinating role, we distribute them to the departments. There are screening panels in the departments. Those screening panels consist of generally an HR consultant - a professional civil servant; staff members of the respective departments - again, dedicated professional civil servants; and lay members who sit on the screening panels.

These panels look at the terms of reference of the various agencies, boards and commissions. They look at the qualifications and they make unqualified recommendations to the minister. The process is really not much different than the process used to identify supreme court justices, where qualified individuals' names are given to the minister to bring forward either as a recommendation to the Executive Council or as a ministerial appointment. The ministers do that and if approved by the Cabinet, then those names are brought forward to this committee. I guess I have to go back to 1993 to once again, and I know you have heard this many times - the purpose of this committee was to review and not to replace the function of government departments, the Executive Council and ministers in making the appointments. The purpose was not to replace the Executive Council and the ministers.

The committee does have the power to approve and to not approve, but the process that was set up in 1993 is the process we're following today.

I'll ask Paul to answer Part II of the question, which is why can the committee not have all of the resumés of CVs submitted.

MR. LAFLECHE: Well I think, Bob, you've alluded to it very well, the process has not been set up to allow that right now. The process can be changed. You've had a discussion on that at your last meeting. I think Solicitor Hebb has advised you on some possible avenues to change the process, should you wish to change it. If you want to make changes, as a collective of 52 MLAs, you're welcome to do so. As Bob alludes to, we are then obliged to administer a different process.

Right now, for reasons of protection of privacy, we cannot release all of the applications - only the successful ones. We are here to serve, we are here to basically help you make a better appointment process for Nova Scotia, if that's what you wish to do.

That's a bit of a frustrating answer and I don't like to come here and give you an answer which is somewhat frustrating, but Gordon can advise you on what changes could be made, if you wish to make those changes.

MS. MASSEY: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired. I will allow 10 minutes for caucus and I'll do two rounds. Ms. Whalen.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I think that the problem we have is that it feels kind of pointless, the role we play here, other than to take an opposing view. I hate to use the term "rubber stamp" but that's how it feels and that's probably the most accurate way to put it.

Unless we take a contrary view, as Ms. Massey said, it can harm the reputation or even insult somebody who is obviously qualified because everybody is qualified, as you are telling us, who reaches this level, or screened.

MR. ABBOTT: Not to be argumentative, but perhaps everybody who submits an application is not qualified, and that's the job of the screening panel within the department. That's why you have an HR consultant and staff members who have a background and experience in the respective board and lay members who round out the screening panel and present qualified candidates to the respective minister. The key there is qualified candidates.

MS. WHALEN: Mr. Abbott, are you suggesting that we are the final sort of screen for that? If somebody wasn't qualified, that we would be the final, sort of the sober second thought within this process?

MR. ABBOTT: My understanding is that this committee has the power to approve or not to approve. My understanding as well is - and I don't profess to be an expert at the HR Committee of the House of Assembly, which I think Paul has tried to build me up to be, in his opening speech . . .

MS. WHALEN: I'm disappointed now.

MR. LAFLECHE: That's why you were hired. (Laughter)

MR. ABBOTT: My understanding is that at some point in the past, this committee determined that where an appointment was to be made which had a remuneration of $100 per diem, the committee could request and examine the CV or resumé of the applicant. Am I correct in that? So again the rules were set by the committee so if that's the case, then you have put in place a process where you, as individuals and as a committee as a whole, you can examine the resumé or the CV of the applicant and make your own determination as to whether or not the committee feels that the applicant is, indeed, qualified.

MR. LAFLECHE: You'd want to be somewhat careful about what the role of the committee is and I think that's what you're touching on. It's a very good question because as Bob alluded to, you might decide that you don't want to appoint someone but you might also decide that you don't want to label them as not qualified.

It is a subtle difference, but you might find that labelling people as not qualified by this committee, when they have been labelled qualified by an expert panel, you might determine that you might want to not appoint someone for other reasons than not qualified. That's why I think you want to search around very carefully for what the role is of the committee.

MS. WHALEN: Well, I think you do suggest some of the conundrum we're in, which is that it's taking a very negative stance if we have any reason that we don't want to move forward on an appointment. So that limits our ability to even express it here. We've deferred sometimes because we're not happy, but we don't really have even the information to suggest that there's a better candidate or whatever there.

One of our biggest concerns though, really, and the reason we're doing a review of the whole process is because there has been frustration in our role and I think what we're hearing today is, we need to really re-examine it, Mr. Chairman. I'm hearing that perhaps even to redefine how this committee functions.

We are also really concerned about that public service aspect of the individual Nova Scotians who put their name forward and would like to serve in some capacity. We have over 100 boards and commissions, so there's an awful lot of different skills that we need and different ways to serve. Right now, we're finding not enough people applying and people who have applied once maybe feeling that it wasn't responsive enough and they've just not applied again, even though they may be great candidates.

One of the things that we saw particularly in talking to some of the departments, we talked to people who might be working at that level, was there a great delay in contacting anybody. I think for the majority of applicants, if they're not being moved forward in this system, they don't even get contacted.

I don't know if you can perhaps speak to that, but I think the applications begin with you, that they come in through your office and then get dispersed to departments.

MR. LAFLECHE: Yes, I want to point something out. Although Bob has said that the system was put in place in 1993 and from your point of view it is the same system, it's not the same system from our point of view. We have made many improvements and we have responded to this committee's request for more aggressive advertising, et cetera. Bob, maybe you want to describe some of the moves you're

making in terms of the information technology and other things we're doing to improve the internal process.

MS. WHALEN: I'd like that, but I'd also like you to relate to how we could communicate better with applicants and how we could be quicker in letting them know that their names are going forward.

MR. LAFLECHE: Well, I'll pass that over to the expert.

MS. WHALEN: I think that's a key point that we would certainly like to know.

MR. ABBOTT: A couple of points. There are actually about 215 ABCs in Nova Scotia, which is a staggering amount for a province this size. I think the federal government has about 250, so you have to keep that in mind, that there are about 215. Think about the population of Nova Scotia, take away your children, your people incarcerated, et cetera, and you're now down to a very limited gene pool.

MS. WHALEN: Factoring in out-migration.

MR. ABBOTT: Then factor in the people who have already served and have said, I've given my time of public service and I have served and I don't wish to serve forever. So what Nova Scotia is experiencing is really no different than what every other jurisdiction in this country is experiencing in this area of serving on ABCs. So we talk to other jurisdictions and they're having the same issues with respect to people serving.

Several things - we're working with departments on advertising and finding how to reach the citizens to get them to apply. The bulk advertisements are taking place. The departments are taking a more proactive role in targeting special interest groups, going through trade magazines. We are considering developing, for the lack of a better term - I hate to use the word because it could be taken out of context - but profiling applicants, to say that a particular board is looking for a particular individual with very specific skill sets.

One thing that we are about to do is to - all of the information with respect to the agencies, boards and commissions is on the Executive Council Web site. For those who are very computer literate, it would not be an effort for them to find it but for those who aren't, a little more difficult. So we're about to place it, hopefully - I say "about to" with approval - on the Nova Scotia Government home page Web site.

MS. WHALEN: Could I just interrupt for one minute. I don't think I have too much time left and I wanted to ask you on the question around the 215 ABCs that we have. Do you think there's a need to review them and maybe get rid of some or find some that could merge together? It seems like we're over-governed in that sense.

MR. LAFLECHE: Well, that's an opinion that we're not sort of qualified . . .

MS. WHALEN: No, you won't say, but 215 - there may be some that are fairly quiet or dormant that are meeting every couple of years, not annually. I don't know, but would it be worthwhile to suggest a review of that?

MR. ABBOTT: That's not for me to suggest.

MS. WHALEN: Well, I'll say it suggests that to me.

MR. LAFLECHE: Yes, but the departments, when you have them in - and I know you've had Education in for one, I don't know if you've had many other departments - they're really in charge of advising us or Executive Council on those sorts of things. As Bob said, they have an interest in making sure there are qualified people and a diversity of backgrounds of the people who serve on their boards. So they're the ones that the individual departments, the deputies and the ministers really need to address any particular board situation.

[1:30 p.m.]

MS. WHALEN: Okay, I understand. So your role wouldn't be to advise on that.

MR. LAFLECHE: We're sort of the mechanics of the system, as opposed to the policy-making, yes.

MS. WHALEN: Would you suggest this committee right here is the policy-making one on this process?

MR. LAFLECHE: It's an Executive Council process, so I would suggest it's actually Executive Council, yes.

MS. WHALEN: Okay, that's clear.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, your time has expired. Ms. Bolivar-Getson.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I have a few comments that I'd like to make before I ask the question. I think the overall purpose of this meeting, and with bringing in the committee or the individuals we have here today, is to see to it that we have gender balance, that we have a diverse board and that we have qualified people serving on our boards. If we want to encourage people to put their name forward, we don't want to do anything that would act as a deterrent.

I guess my question is, if publicly we brought all those names to the table who applied, then publicly all those people would be rejected in the eyes of the media, would they not? I guess I'm going to ask that question to the table, is that not what would happen here and would that not serve as a deterrent to those individuals who wanted to put their name forward?

MR. ABBOTT: If I might attempt an answer. I would say yes, that bringing all of the names to a public forum, such as this committee, might have a detrimental effect of people not applying. In seeking employment, many people apply for jobs and they don't tell their employers that they are actually doing it, for the reason that, well, if I'm not successful, I don't want my employer to know that I'm seeking employment.

Many people, I believe, who are seeking to serve are doing so in a confidential manner. Therefore, if they are debated in a public forum such as this, it could have a negative, detrimental effect.

Another point, if I might make this, is that with the number of agencies, boards and commissions that exist and the number of appointments that are made, I think the committee should reflect upon whether or not it has the time, the energy or the resources to take on the job, the role that the screening panels have within all of these departments. Do you have the capacity to do the job that the numerous screening panels are doing in the departments? I can't answer that question. Does the committee feel that it has the capacity to go through the thousands of applications and do the work that the screening panels are doing?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I realize that there is a lot of work that goes on behind the scene here bringing names forward, and I think for that process to come to this table, I'm not sure how cumbersome and how burdensome it would be to try to go through that list of names that we had before us here today. I'd just like to quote Hansard, dated June 29, 1998:

"The thing I would be very concerned about in this process is we have to have qualified people and it has to be a fair process; those are the two qualifiers. But past that, we have to be careful that we don't drag this down so badly that a lot of our boards cease functioning. I am just about to that point in one of my departments right now and if that happens, that means that the taxpayers of the Province of Nova Scotia are not going to get the service that they deserve and that is going to be very difficult to deal with. I think we have to have a process in place that does both of those things, that is fair, and we have qualified people. But at the same time we have to go through a process that puts people in place quickly enough and that these functions can continue uninterrupted."

I'm not sure if what we're asking for here today would just do that, that it would be so cumbersome it would be almost impossible to go through that. Now, there have been a number of ABCs, I believe, that have been cut over the last years, and I'm not sure how many that is or if somebody can tell me what those numbers are, but I know that there have been some reductions in the ABCs.

MR. ABBOTT: I don't have exact numbers, but I think it's probably - since 1993, I think the number has been reduced by about 100. I'm looking at Shealagh McGrath to confirm, am I in the ballpark? I believe at one point, minister, it was over 300, 325, and we're down to about 215.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: So we've eliminated a third of the ABCs in the last number of years, which I would think would be a considerable start. Is there still more work to do? Maybe so, but I think it's a considerable start to be moving in that direction.

Back on the question of qualified individuals and the actual screening process and bringing those names forward to this table - some people are screened out at the very entry point, are they not, because they are not qualified for the role that they are applying for? Is that correct?

MR. ABBOTT: That would be correct. I can perhaps give an example. I know this particular board has been talked about here, the Blasters Examiners Board. I know that it has been difficult. The committee is looking for geographic representation, looking for gender balance, and I've read several times in Hansard - it's hard to find a female blaster to sit on the board. I've seen cases where there have been applications for the board, dietitians have applied to sit on the blasters board, but in order to be an examiner you have to be a qualified blaster. For those who don't know what a blaster is, it's a pretty dangerous, serious occupation. That's why the qualifications are so strict, that only qualified blasters can sit on the examining board.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Just a comment, I have seen females blast people, but that wouldn't classify them as a blaster. (Laughter) I think one of the most important things here, and as MLAs sitting around this table, is that we really need to encourage people to step up to the plate and put their names forward, that there are still not a lot of names coming forward at the entry point for a lot of these.

Gender balance, we really need, and I know the Status of Women have gone out on various attempts to make sure that there are women putting their names forward, and at every speaking engagement I'm at, we try to encourage people to put their names forward. I think that the Office of Acadian Affairs and Aboriginal Affairs, we need to get people to put their names forward and we need to encourage them to do that. I'm not sure if there's something in the process that we lack there that we need to be better at, but we definitely, as MLAs, need to encourage that. Maybe you could comment.

MR. ABBOTT: Only that, minister, I think I'm repeating myself, as I said earlier, every jurisdiction in the country - and if the committee does not wish to take my word for it, they can certainly do their own research on this - every jurisdiction in the country is experiencing the same challenge of having experienced and qualified citizens come forward to serve. This is not unique to Nova Scotia. The reasons for that - everybody is searching for the reason - in Nova Scotia that the departments are responsible for the administration of these ABCs, I believe, go above and beyond the call of duty to make efforts to get people to apply. It's in their best interest to get people to apply, in order for the system and in order for government to work. It is in their interest to get people to apply.

As MLAs, if you can support the process yourselves, because you meet many people, you're in the public eye, if you can support the efforts that are being made by the system, by the advertising, by the placements of articles in trade magazines, by the Internet, anything and everything that can be done, it would serve the system.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired. Mr. Paris, just before you start, if you don't mind, we have guests waiting. Is five minutes per caucus enough to finish this session, this part of our session? Would you agree with that, or do we want to go 10 minutes?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I think five is enough. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, five minutes it is, that seems to be the majority.

Mr. Paris, your five minutes starts now.

MR. PERCY PARIS: Five minutes. I want to enter the arena of diversity, and I don't know if I can do it in five minutes. It's such an important topic. I've heard some words this morning - and I should mention in my preamble that I'm substituting for someone else, so some of the things I may want to talk about this afternoon may have already been covered. I've heard the words, the catchwords being thrown around, I've heard qualified, and I've heard the word fairness, and I've heard encouragement of people to apply for ABCs. I've also heard mention of gender equity throughout the course of the afternoon.

I haven't heard, and I'm very curious as somebody who is a new MLA - I'm very curious if, during the selection process, you look at the area of diversity, which not only concerns one about gender. We are a diverse province, and I certainly know a number of individuals who have applied - qualified individuals who have applied for one of the boards or agencies or commissions, and who haven't even gotten a look at. I'm wondering, do you have anything that supports the whole role, the whole concept of

diversity, and if you don't, what strategies do you have now or in the future that will ensure that diversity is going to be fully represented on the ABCs in Nova Scotia?

MR. ABBOTT: Diversity is an integral part of the makeup of the ABCs. I can't speak to the particular situation that you may be aware of but it is - in fact, I wrote a letter in response to an individual just last week. The individual was writing, saying, I have over the recent years applied, I have not been successful, I'm getting frustrated. Can you explain to me why I haven't been chosen?

Well, in writing back to the individual, I couldn't be specific and say, I don't know why you weren't successful, it may have been for many reasons. It may have been that there was one vacancy and 20 people applied. I can't answer, Mr. Paris, why a particular individual hasn't been chosen.

MR. PARIS: Don't get me wrong, this is not about one particular individual. This is about a number of individuals.

I'll ask another question. If I asked the question - not if - could you tell me, and easily we probably could do it systematically, the number of females versus the number of males who are on any board, agency, within the Province of Nova Scotia. Could that information be easily retrieved?

MR. ABBOTT: It could be retrieved but not easily. One thing that we are doing, or one project that I've initiated is we are building a new data base.

[1:45 p.m.]

MR. PARIS: Excuse me for just a minute because I have only five minutes so I want to try to get in as much as I can. So that information could be retrieved. Do you have a rough idea right now how - what's the balance right now, the gender balance, male versus female? Are we looking at 60 per cent male, 40 per cent female? Is it 50/50?

MR. ABBOTT: I can't answer that.

MR. PARIS: Okay. I think that's important information to have.

My next question would be, other information that I would be looking for, I'd like to know how many persons from the Mi'kmaq community are representative of the ABCs of the Province of Nova Scotia? How many persons of African descent are there on the ABCs of Nova Scotia? To me this is very crucial and very important information and data to have. I think that we, not only as MLAs, but certainly the ABCs should strive for that diversity on our boards. If we don't have that diversity now, I think we have to

look at strategies of how we can achieve that diversity and that strategy may not be just limiting ourselves to advertising in the local newspaper.

If that has been the strategy for x number of years and if we're at this point in time and I'm even here asking the question, then that tells me there must be something wrong with that strategy. So we should be in a position that we re-examine the strategies that we have employed in the past and come up with more strategies that are going to encourage people. You mentioned earlier and I think . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris, I'm going to have to cut you off there, but I'm going to come back to your point at the end of the meeting. Ms. Whalen.

MS. WHALEN: Thank you, I think five minutes will be fine. I do want to go back to the idea of a speedy reply and the sort of courtesy that we show the applicants because I think that's something we could resolve today in coming up with an agreement, that I would say at the front end when the applications are first received, that people are contacted and perhaps they could be given a look at the flow chart that we got that shows this is how the applications are going to be handled. We know that they are good, qualified people who want to be involved and we don't want to turn them off on the idea of public service because their applications are treated just silently.

MR. LAFLECHE: No, there is a - you brought up a very good point. Frequently, you know generally the public doesn't do this but some members might - thank God we don't have to spend all of our time on the telephone but some of the members who have sent in an application might phone up and say, what's happening, I haven't heard anything. Generally we are able to look up and say well, yes, we put out a bulk ad, this committee authorized the putting out of a bulk ad and it had all the agencies, boards and commissions on it but even though they were all listed there, there is no vacancy on that committee until January 2008, say, so they're not going to hear anything for a long time.

I know it's frustrating to the individual because when they saw those agencies, boards and commissions listed in the bulk ad, they sort of thought oh, there must be vacancies. It's not always the case because these are bulk ads. So frequently - I'm just dealing with someone who gave me a list they applied to and I gave it to Shealagh the other day and it came back that there's not a single vacancy for the five boards that this person applied to. So I've gone back to the person and said, yes, we have your application but there are no vacancies, and that's all I can really do at this point.

That's something that we're going to have to solve and we're putting in place new IT systems so that we can solve those issues and some of the issues that MLA Paris raised regarding the statistics, get them faster and be able to allow you to develop those strategies that you want to develop and provide more, I think, response and courtesy to the applicant. We aren't there yet and we realize that.

MS. WHALEN: Even at this point, if the letter was sort of a standard letter that would indicate that all the boards were listed and that some of them may not have any members retiring for up to a year or more, something that indicates to them that this is a long process and we still would thank you for putting your name in and you can call us at any time, maybe put in a number where they can check back, should they require, but you'll let them know that it's a long process. I think there would be a comfort to that and a courtesy.

MR. ABBOTT: Every application received at the Executive Council Office is responded to. Every applicant gets a letter of acknowledgment to say that it has been acknowledged and it has been passed on. We ask or expect that they identify the board or boards, so we acknowledge and we identify that it has been passed on and that it will be held in file, pending file, if they aren't successful, for two years.

MS. WHALEN: That sounds a lot like when you apply for a job, though, and they tell you they put your application on file. That's why I just mean to be more specific with them, to say the committee has recognized that there are great delays in these appointments being made and we want you to know that's going to be the case - just a big more rounded.

I could also ask that maybe we could see a copy of your standard letter, perhaps it says that.

MR. PARIS: I've got one. (Laughter)

MS. WHALEN: Oh, do you? Personally . . .

MR. LAFLECHE: That's kind of funny that you got one. That was before the June vote? (Laughter)

MR. ABBOTT: Ms. Whalen, I'm going to try to sort of answer two questions, yours and Mr. Paris' question. Mr. Paris raised a point about diversity and the numbers and statistics and so on, and I said that I don't have that. I haven't been in this role a long time. What I did discover in coming into this role is that - and it's the old saying, if you don't know how it works, then you can't fix it. So I don't know exactly how it all works, in the sense that I don't have the numbers, I don't know the ratios, the percentages and so on, but I'm going to get there. What I discovered was that we have an archaic database. It's 16 or 17 years old, it's not modern and it should be.

Upon discovering that, I have placed it at the top of the priority list so that at a future date and in the not-too-distant future, if invited back, we will come back to you and we will have that information and probably more importantly, you will have that information. You can have access to that information and you won't have to question us.

MR. LAFLECHE: That information will allow you to better design your advertising and recruitment programs and allow the departments to better design them. I think that's the key here and that's what we tried to put in place, but we're not there yet.

MR. ABBOTT: In your decision making, you will be able to make more informed decisions because you will have that information at your desks when you're looking at - should the process stay the same, you will have that information and you will be able to make more informed decisions as to whether or not it's gender, regional.

MS. WHALEN: I know we'll be in a hurry to receive it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the PC caucus have any further questions?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Yes, just a comment back to Mr. Paris' question that he asked on the gender balance and is it 50/50? I'd like to say no, it's not 50/50. It's definitely not 50/50 and there's only one board, I believe, that has 100 per cent women participants, and that would be the Status of Women. However, knowing the health boards throughout the province and so on, I do see, in my own, a balance there. I don't know how the rest of yours are throughout the province, but I do know that there are several women who sit on the district health boards.

There are some boards that definitely have more women on them than others, and women feel they're more qualified on some boards. As was mentioned earlier, there are not many women blasters out there, so why would they apply to sit on a board if they have no interest in a particular subject matter? Again, I'm going to share my time - that was just a comment - with my colleague.

MR. PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder, if we just have only a couple of minutes left, if we should take the opportunity, and I'd be willing to forgo, to talk a little bit about maybe some of what was discussed in the subcommittee. You kind of hit on that today, and I think maybe you might want to talk a bit to that. Given we have guests, though, maybe we should discuss some - if you think we're free to do that . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we're free to do that.

MR. PORTER: . . . subcommittee's will, and that we have made some progress with regard to advertising. Mr. LaFleche pointed out something that was quite interesting, the expiration of committees, we're actually posting these things. Something that caught my ear was we're posting, but there's really no vacancies. There appears to be some more we can do there, as far as before, and maybe we spend the time and the money going through the advertising . . .

MR. LAFLECHE: If I could make a comment on that. Sometimes there are vacancies coming up, but there are people who have served their first term and normally they would expect to serve a second term, so in fact they're all filled by renewals through this committee. Sometimes that's another confusion.

MR. PORTER: I think those are some of the things we need to work through. I know that you wanted to comment, Mr. Chairman, on maybe we are in the subcommittee, and I'll pass that to you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, if you guys want to relinquish the rest of your time, that would be fine. I think we should wait until the subcommittee report comes back, before we discuss that in detail. There is one issue that Mr. Paris brought up that I brought up as a member of the committee before, visible minorities and gender balance. We did ask for a report on that in the past. I don't know where the report is now, and I don't think I still have a copy of it. Perhaps we could ask, as a committee, to get a report back on that, maybe from the gentlemen who are present. We can send you a letter, if that's the consensus of the committee, so we know when names are coming forward that we're looking for those particular things.

MR. LAFLECHE: So what are you actually looking for, just so we can . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would think it would be along the lines Mr. Paris had, the number of visible minorities who are identified, because some people don't identify themselves, I realize that, when they put an application in, and then you have no way of knowing, and also gender balance.

MR. LAFLECHE: Are you looking for the overall statistics, then?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The overall statistics on . . .

MR. LAFLECHE: For people who sit on the committees at the time?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Existing, yes.

MR. LAFLECHE: And applicants?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Existing members on . . .

MR. LAFLECHE: Existing members, okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would that be satisfactory, Mr. Paris?

MR. PARIS: I'm thinking. (Interruptions) I heard it. Again, as a substitute on this committee, my first response is going to be to say yes. I'm sure the gentleman who usually sits on the committee, I'll be talking to him. So for now, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Once we get the information, we can review it and ask for further information.

MS. MASSEY: I'm just wondering, on your comment, how detailed the report might be, if it's going to be broken down into each various ABC, the various boards, or if we're looking for, not how many men, how many women in total but on each one.

MR. LAFLECHE: You'd like to take the apprenticeship board and say there are three women, five men, four African Nova Scotians, etc.

MS. MASSEY: Right. We're making light of the fact that there are obviously no women blasters in the province. These numbers can achieve another goal, too, they can show . . .

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I didn't make light of it, I didn't say anything.

MS. MASSEY: No, us women were making light of it, we're making light of it. I'm not picking on you, don't worry. What I'm saying is that all those numbers - the honourable member opposite, Carolyn Bolivar-Getson is right. We want to try to do the best we can here, and those numbers, if they show us things that aren't right, then we can say, look, obviously there are no women in this field, maybe that's why they're not applying, maybe there are no women on this ABC because we don't have women in this field. It just snowballs.

MR. PARIS: If I may, Mr. Chairman, it's one thing knowing the numbers, the numbers have to say something that is real and significant, but also, when we talk about recruitment, recruitment is only one part of any strategy. Along with recruitment, you also have to be concerned with retention. They go hand in glove, you can't have one without the other, because if you do, whatever you're going to implement is going to go belly up, it's not going to fly, it's not going to work.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris, I'm just going to stop you there. We're not implementing anything, we're asking for information. There's a big difference, because, as has already been stated, we can't implement who is going to be appointed to the boards. We can only say yes or no on them, but if we have the information to know if there is an imbalance of visible minorities or women on the boards, then we can address those issues individually on each board as they come forward. That's the way the system works. Maybe you could direct your comments in that direction, that would be great.

MR. PARIS: I have to refocus here. What I'm saying is that having the numbers is one part of the puzzle, it's only one piece of the puzzle, anything that is done to address what the deficiencies are has to have a contingency with respect to one around retention. It's no good to go out and recruit the best qualified from any targeted group if there is not some way in place to retain whoever you do recruit.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If it's the consensus of the committee, we will send, in writing, a request to you, gentlemen, requesting statistics on each board, how many women, how many visible minorities, how many men on each individual board. I understand, I truly understand that you can only tell us that information if the person is self-identified.

MR. LAFLECHE: Can I also add that in order to help everyone out here, because we are challenged by our IT system and the amount of time necessary to get the detailed stats, that maybe we'll get you the overview stats as quickly as possible, and give us a longer time to work out some of the detailed statistics. I wouldn't like to hold it all back until we get the whole ball of wax. Let's get you what we can right away. We've gotten you reports in the past, and we can get you those again. Then we'll dig down. Does that make sense?

[2:00 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Ms. Whalen.

MS. WHALEN: I'm satisfied with that, as well, in order for it to be quicker. We've been talking about being responsive. I think it's really important that we do see it by board, because while we're talking about these now 215 boards and commissions, some of them are much more high-profile and more influential than others. I think it's important that we see what the gender and other bases are on each of them, if we could.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps what I'll suggest is, maybe if you could send us the overview immediately, as soon as you can, and give us an estimate of how long it will take for the rest, and if there are any particular boards that the committee is particularly interested in, as Ms. Whalen has said, or any other member might be interested in, maybe we could forward that information to expedite that.

MR. LAFLECHE: We do them one by one, so if you're interested in five particular ones, that could be expedited. But to do the entire 215, there would be no Christmas here. (Laughter) That's where we are.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, that's great. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming today. You've provided us with a lot of information.

Now we have Dexter Training Institute coming next. So we'll invite them in.

We'll get underway right away, if that's all right. I'd like to ask our two guests to introduce themselves, and maybe a little bit about what you do with Dexter Training Institute.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Okay, I'll start. My name is Paul MacDonald, and I'm the Director of Human Resources and Safety with the Municipal Group of Companies. The majority of people know it better as Dexter Construction. With me is Shalini Richards, she is the Recruitment and Development Coordinator. When it comes to the Dexter Institute, it is basically our responsibility to oversee the running of the program from the application, right through to the graduation process for the students.

We have a presentation that we've provided everyone with. We're going to break it down into some topics. This will be fairly brief, so there will be plenty of time for questions and answers. I'm going to talk about employee retention, skilled labour shortage and some of our concerns as a company, and then Shalini is going to go through the basics of what the Dexter Institute is.

Just to start off with employee retention, losing people to out West is not as big an issue now as it has been in the past. The majority of people who have wanted to go out West are going out West or have gone. What we're seeing now is, we're seeing people going out for short periods and coming back because of the inflated costs. I recently attended a meeting where they mentioned that a mobile home on a quarter-acre is now at $335,000, and a 2,100 square foot home is now at $535,000. So you're seeing more people - the lure of the big dollar - are going out but who are now coming back because, if you look apples to apples, the costs out there far outweigh the benefits.

What we're seeing locally is that the competition is here, now. We're competing with our competitors, with people who are looking for the same skill sets. It is currently an employee market. Employees are able to pick and choose where they would like to work at this time. As I mentioned, the skill shortage is here now. It is becoming the bottleneck for a lot of companies and organizations. I have been at several conferences, have given several speeches, and in talking with individuals from companies, both large and small, this is a huge issue.

From a short-term perspective, things like immigration, innovative recruiting efforts and practices, and becoming the employer of choice is what's helping companies stay ahead of the curve. Longer term, we need innovative training initiatives, better promotion of the trades in schools, promotion of trades as a career, not just a job. That is one of the biggest downfalls we are having as a company. If you look at European cultures, trades are considered a respectable career, but somehow in Nova Scotia/North America, trades seem to be almost a secondary situation after university.

Some of the concerns that we have, and we have seen - we actively recruit not only for our company but for this program - is that parents and educators need to realize that university is not the answer for everyone. I think our education system has to adapt to make sure that there are pathways for recognizing individuals who want to go into the trades. From a governmental perspective, they need to keep abreast of the needs of business - a proactive versus a reactive approach - and the ability to change, adapt, react in a more timely manner. I realize in saying that, it is difficult and sometimes you have to weigh all the options, but it seems like, currently, what is happening is employers are taking on initiatives themselves which, if there could be a partnership, would be a much more long-term and beneficial approach.

At this point, I'm going to hand it over to Shalini, and she's going to briefly talk about what the Dexter Institute is.

MS. SHALINI RICHARDS: Thank you very much, Paul. Thank you very much for inviting us here today. Just a little overview with regard to the Dexter Institute; it's in your handout material as well. The Dexter Institute had started back in 2001 as an answer to the question of what are we going to do with recruitment and retention in the heavy civil construction industry.

We partnered with the Nova Scotia Community College to offer a two-year diploma program with regard to the general list of heavy civil construction. It's broken down into three different tiers. The program offers the students the academic components, or theoretical component, and it also offers the students a practical component whereby the students will be taught specifically by our superintendents in specified areas. The third component involves two paid full work terms in the construction industry with Dexter Construction. So the individuals really get a good hands-on experience as to what heavy civil construction is all about, and really where they see themselves within the industry.

At the end of the two-year program - these are the retention factors that we have put in place for the program - the students will be hired full-time with Dexter Construction; of course, assuming that they've completed all requirements of the three tiers. We also offer the students, if they stay with the company for two years after they've been hired, they will receive 50 per cent of a tuition reimbursement to them. This is, again, another retention factor for us.

Our statistics are very good with the program. We've had over 100 graduates of the program; approximately 80 per cent of those individuals have remained with us, with the company. So it has been a wonderful answer to our recruitment and retention problem that we're having within the heavy civil industry. As Paul alluded to, the challenge has been getting over that hump of people assuming that heavy civil construction is just a job, it's just something to do in the summer, and then you'll go to

university and get a career. By partnering with the Nova Scotia Community College, we have, in some ways, in many ways legitimized the industry itself, and the fact that we're now offering a diploma program that is transferrable - the students don't have to stay with Dexter, they can go out West if they want to, they can go to other organizations. The bonus is staying with us, and the bonus is the retention factor which is the tuition reimbursement.

That just sort of gives you a very thumbnail sketch of what the Dexter Institute Program is about. The handout material that we've provided you gives you a little bit more detail with regard to what the curriculum offers, what some of the work terms and the practicum courses are, and a little bit more detail about some of the statistics of the program itself.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: One of the things I just want to add is that we are training people for careers with this company. Hopefully some of these individuals are going to be the future leaders of our company. Already we are seeing that with several, three, four graduates already in the role of foreman, already in supervisory roles. Already we are seeing that there are careers for these people who graduate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. We'll start with 10-minute rounds. Mr. Parker.

MR. CHARLES PARKER: I was going to ask that first, 10-minute rounds per person or per caucus?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Per person.

MR. PARKER: I may not go the 10 minutes, we'll see. The program you're doing sounds very good, and I'm sure it is, and you're training some qualified people, some of whom remain with your company and some who go elsewhere, including out West. The problem I see in my constituency office, and I'm sure all of us as MLAs are probably facing this is, we get individuals who come to us, and maybe they're in their 20s somewhere and they're out of the school system and they're working now - maybe they're working at a call centre or they're working somewhere - and they're finding it hard to get to the next level, the next stage.

I'm just wondering if there's some way we can get around that. They want to take training, maybe they want to be a heavy-equipment operator, but they're sort of locked in the system right now. They're earning $10 an hour, or whatever, and they have a car payment and maybe an apartment payment every month and so on, and they just can't afford to leave their job. But then as they go to try to get sponsorship through the EI Program, where we know there are billions of dollars of extra money sitting, supposedly for training, they're told no, you're not eligible, because if you quit your job you're not

going to be eligible for sponsorship. Therefore, they can't afford to quit, and they can't afford to get into the training. They're sort of caught in the rut they're in. Do you see any way that we can get over that hump, and get more people into the training they need?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: I wish I had the answer to that, because we see this in our program. We could be students, and Shalini will qualify for EI and I won't. Exact same circumstances. The EI system - we can't figure it out. It's a perfect opportunity - the thing I like, and we try to help students in any way we can, but sometimes it comes down to the case manager you have in EI. In my mind it's a good investment for training dollars, knowing that you are guaranteed a full-time job when you come out. If you could get that answer for me, I'd greatly like to have it too.

MR. PARKER: Well, it's a big, big roadblock for many people out there.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Oh, absolutely, and we've had students who are approved for the program but because of the lack of financial means, they can't.

MR. PARKER: That's a big one. I know government and private industry and the federal government, too, has to have some role here to play, but there are billions of dollars in that EI surplus in Ottawa and yet we have people on the ground who want to get training, and they're serious about it, and they really want to do it and they even go and get accepted for the program - perhaps your program - then they think they're going to get sponsorship to help them do it. I know about half your program you're getting paid, that's a help, but it's still to get there, to get started and be able to afford to live. People are still going to have their car payment or their apartment rent or whatever. I just feel there has to be a better way because I've had people who are very keen, very much wanting to advance themselves, but financially it's just not possible. So obviously, then, it's something that you have run across before.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Oh, absolutely.

MS. RICHARDS: Sometimes part of the problem is the fact that they're getting paid. Sometimes EI will say to candidates that you're getting paid, you're going through a paid work term, so why would you qualify for EI? You're making almost $12 an hour at 55 hours a week for 25 weeks. That's a lot of money, so you're doing fine.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: They're being disqualified for student loans on that same basis.

MS. RICHARDS: On the same basis, we're running through that same challenge. The one thing that we're trying to do on our part is really getting out there and trying to educate some of the government agencies to say, this is what the program is, can you help us? Can we work with you? Can you work with our students? Sometimes education

is our greatest weapon, to get out there and say, this is a long-term investment for an individual, there's no doubt about it, but this is the benefit at the end of the program. So really education is our best defence at this point.

[2:15 p.m.]

MR. PARKER: I just mention it because it is a roadblock for many and I just hope that all of us, as MLAs, in government, and yourself as a training institute, if we can put pressure on, I guess, the federal EI systems and how to allow an easier process and more financial dollars to help those who really want to advance . . .

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: I agree 100 per cent as I see, and I'm not saying just this program but any program where you are guarantee gainful, full-time employment at the end, that's a good use of money for training dollars, it's well-spent money.

MR. PARKER: I'm going to ask you a little bit about your program at Dexter Institute. You bring in 35 students a year, what number out of those every year - do all 35 graduate or do some of them not make it? What's your percentage?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: We probably lose five a year, that's a rough estimate. It's based on sometimes the individuals get in the program and after a while realize that this is not for me. Other times it's strictly academic. Sometimes, through the nature of this program, we'll look at the individual and realize that this is not cut out for you, so it's a little bit of everything.

MR. PARKER: Okay, and out of the 30 who graduate, what percentage would you hire back into your company?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Every one of them, everyone who graduates from the program.

MR. PARKER: But do some of them actually go to Alberta, or with the competition?

MS. RICHARDS: A very small percentage do, the majority will stay. We're seeing a little bit more of an influx of students leaving after the two-year retention period, or the two-year retention bonus, but even that's a very small percentage, I would guesstimate maybe about 2 per cent of those students are leaving.

MR. PARKER: Do almost all of them eventually end up working for Dexter Construction?

MS. RICHARDS: Yes.

MR. PARKER: The practical training, then, is done at the Akerley Campus only, is it?

MS. RICHARDS: No, actually the theoretical, the academic training is done at Akerley Campus, which will be moving to the new waterfront development site or the Dartmouth waterfront site. The practicum training is actually done at our location on Lively Road in Middle Sackville. We have a school, a training institute there, and there is also a site out back where the students can go out and do some hands-on training as well. Then the work terms are different work sites, different jobs that we have ongoing during the construction season.

MR. PARKER: So wherever Dexter Construction has a contract - it could be Yarmouth, or Cape Breton, or anywhere in between - that's where your students are sent for their work terms?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: What we do as part of the program is we provide the students with a form and say, what areas would you like to work? Are there any locations you would prefer? Mind you, the majority of our work is in metro, but we consider it inside-outside: inside is metro, outside is everywhere else. What we try to do is match up the students best with what their requests are.

MR. PARKER: Okay, and in light of our previous discussion before you folks came on, what percentage of women, as compared to men, are you taking into the program? Also, your diversity policy, can you tell us a little bit about that?

MS. RICHARDS: Unfortunately it's a very small percentage of women who are in the program, but one of the initiatives that we've gotten on board with, as an organization as well as the Institute, is partnering with Techsploration. Techsploration, as you are probably all familiar with, is the advertising or the promotion of women in trades and technology. So I will go out to various events and really talk to these young girls about the Dexter Training Institute, talk to them about heavy civil construction.

Out of the 35 students we, on average, will have approximately one or two female students. Thankfully, some of the female students that we've had have been some of our top operators out of the program. They're just doing fantastic and they really succeed in the program.

MR. PARKER: Is that based on the number of applicants, that it's mostly men who are applying?

MS. RICHARDS: Yes.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Ninety-five per cent are male, who apply.

MR. PARKER: Because it is seen as a male profession?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Yes, that's the stereotype of the industry.

MR. PARKER: And what about diversity, do you have any stats on that?

MS. RICHARDS: Not really any stats on it but in terms of the diversity policy, we've really followed the policy of the Nova Scotia Community College and their diversity plan, simply because we partner with them so they're really responsible for the recruitment process itself. They will go out to different agencies and different areas within Nova Scotia and promote the program, as well as promote the college, obviously.

What I will do is - either myself or Paul - go out with the Nova Scotia Community College and promote the program specifically to advise people and let them know. We have had the opportunity to speak to a number of diverse groups. We actually did a presentation to the Millbrook group. Again, we're also looking at partnering and speaking with a number of HRSDC offices and really just going in and presenting the Dexter Institute to their clients.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Your time has expired, Mr. Parker.

Mr. Bain.

MR. BAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few questions, I won't take up the whole 10 minutes. I notice in your presentation that you said you had 80 students graduate, I think, since 2003. Were any of those former or existing employees of Dexter?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: No.

MR. BAIN: I'm asking that because you are also - part of your program is the technology side of it as well and I'm sure that a lot of those present employees wouldn't have the technical expertise at that point and I'm just wondering if they would participate in it as well.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: No, not in this, but what we do in the off-season as a company - and it's becoming less and less because of the weather - usually we'll finish up at the end of December, and January, February, March and maybe April is our down time. It's during that time that we offer courses and training to our existing workforce, everything from basic safety right up to heavy equipment.

MS. RICHARDS: But interestingly enough, if I may comment, we're seeing relatives of our employees coming and taking the program, so the niece or the nephew

or cousin or brother who want to come and work for Dexter, they will go through the program and come on board and work with us.

MR. BAIN: I was wondering whether or not there would be an interest in the existing employees to upgrade but I guess that's answered that it is, but not with this program.

MS. RICHARDS: Not so much, yes.

MR. PARKER: Okay, we talked about - you say that the exodus to Alberta is not as bad as it was, I guess that's basically what you said. Just this morning in committee we heard of a husband and wife who made in the vicinity of $60,000 who left for Alberta. They sold their house, or put their house up for sale, I should say, and they're gone. So the exodus is still there. I'm looking at this two ways, does the exodus to Alberta affect your ability to fill the class? That would be my first question.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: No, not the class. Our existing needs, our short-term needs, it affects that. The institute is more of a long term, but surprisingly it has had some very good short-term benefits that we didn't expect so quickly. A lot of it depends on the abilities of the individual, in whatever role they're in.

MR. BAIN: I'm going to follow that up with this other question. Because construction is a seasonal industry, I could see where it would be more attractive for individuals to do their seasonal work in Alberta than it would be working with Dexter. Is there enough incentive, wage, salary-wise, for them to stay, and say, no, no, it's worth it for me to stay here? Do you see where I'm going with this? If I'm going to work for four months, I want to go where the big bucks are, that's what a lot of them are saying. Salary-wise, is there good incentive for them to stay?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Yes. Speaking for our companies, a lot of our employees probably wish they were only working four months a year, we are pushing nine or 10 months, that's our seasonal right now. In those nine to 10 months, they are working more than a person would in a 40-hour equivalent. A lot of times you'll see individuals with the two months say, oh, thank God, I need the break. The other token, we see the opposite/ Some people will say, okay, I want to be home, so I'll work the eight months here, and if I know I'm going to be off for a while, I'll go out West for three months and then take a month off. We're seeing the total opposite.

MR. BAIN: I think between 2000 and 2005, I believe there was something like 3,900 more jobs in the construction industry, or it improved by that much in a five-year period. I see what you're presenting here and what you people are doing, you must be expecting that number is going to be increasing. Will it be another 3,900 in another five years?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: It's twofold. You look at the growth of the industry, and you look at the age of the industry. Just from a succession planning, we have, I forget how many people over the age of 55 in our company, I think it's like 140 people over the age of 55; there are 140 people you have to replace without even growing. It's a double-edged sword, you have to worry about succession planning and then you have to worry about growth.

MS. RICHARDS: There is also potential, we've been talking about maybe looking at 2008, expanding the program to 50 students as opposed to 35 because, again, we see that growth, we see that succession planning that we're going to need to speed up.

MR. BAIN: You say that for your courses they have to be 19 by the time they graduate, complete their course.

MS. RICHARDS: Graduate, that's right.

MR. BAIN: What would be the average age of the people who are enrolled in it now?

MS. RICHARDS: Well, ironically, what seems to happen is we get ebbs and flows every year of the influx of the program. This year, for some reason, we have a lot of young people coming into the program. I don't know why, I don't know where the differences are. In previous years we've had more mature students. Again, I don't know why. I would say probably on average this year 100 per cent of our class, the 35 students, are of the age of 17 to 18 years old.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: It's a very young class. It's beneficial if you have a mix of ages, because sometimes - and I'm sure you're all aware of this - the 17- to18-year-old maturity level, if you add some 25s and some 33s and even a 40, they kind of level the class out and keep it in line.

MR. BAIN: Sometimes you question the maturity of a 40-year old.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: That's true. (Laughter)

MS. RICHARDS: Even the demographics, we look at the demographics of our classes, and the majority of those students who are coming into the program are from rural areas, because they're familiar, they've got that comfort level with the heavy equipment, with the hard work, with the hours. It's a little bit different when we look at the HRM. We really don't have the numbers of students applying to the program from the city as we do from the rural areas, which is very interesting to see.

MR. BAIN: Final question. Do you see the program expanding to the community college in Sydney? I'll use that as an example.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: To the community college in Sydney, not at this time. We were looking at expanding it in its current location. We're looking at 2008. We haven't looked beyond that because, to some degree, you don't know what the construction industry is going to be in 2009-10 yet. You look at the Commonwealth Games bid, that may be a huge influx here. I don't know where we're going to get the people to . . .

MR. BAIN: My reason for asking that is if the shortage is out there, it would certainly be much more enticing to - and I'm using Sydney as an example - the people of Cape Breton to be able to do that and still stay at home. They're going to eventually join the Dexter workforce.

MS. RICHARDS: We had the same question in Bridgewater, the Bridgewater campus, would you expand here?

MR. BAIN: It's not out of the question, just not at this time is what you're saying.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Not at this time, no.

MS. RICHARDS: It would be a good place to go. (Laughter) Thank you very much.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I just wanted to go back, Bridgewater would definitely be a good spot to go to set that up. You spoke about Techsploration, is Dexter Institute a mentor for the Techsploration program?

MS. RICHARDS: Yes, we have had several of our graduates as mentors to the Techsploration program.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It is a wonderful opportunity to give Grade 9 students, female students, the opportunity to see if the trades is something they definitely want to enter into. Another program that is being offered on a pilot basis at the Nova Scotia Community College is the Women Unlimited, which is putting women into trades. It may be something that you would like to check out as well. It's piloted in Bridgewater.

MS. RICHARDS: Absolutely.

[2:30 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It is also being looked at piloting in Halifax, as well. It puts people out and teams them up with mentors and so on. These are women who are older women coming back into the system. My family, coming from a construction background, definitely understands the need for the labour force. I know you said, yes, there'll be lots of opportunities for people, but I guess everyone is going to be competing for those same numbers of people. I guess the economy will dictate itself. The more people you train, I think the program you have in place is a wonderful program, and I really think there is a lot of opportunity to do this with other businesses and so on. I know that another one in my community that has recently stepped up to the plate is Composites Atlantic, and a course has been written at the community college in Bridgewater, in the curriculum, and they're moving forward with that at this time.

They're win-win situations. When you have industry that already has the employment opportunities, it's a lot easier to say, yes, I want to go into that and I'm guaranteed the job on the other end, than entering into a profession where you're gambling.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Go to university. You're never guaranteed.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: On that subject, looking at a lot of the people who are enrolled in community college now, they're people who have already gone to university, gotten a degree, and now they're coming back to get a trade so they're employable.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm going to cut you off at that point. Your time has expired.

Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Mr. Chairman, I don't have too many questions, because when you see a good thing you shouldn't argue with it. My only worry would be how limited you are in your program and the fact that you only offer it in one part of the province, and the fact that you're basically a private industry that offers a course at the Nova Scotia Community College and if your company were to go under tomorrow, that would no longer be available to Nova Scotians. Is that correct?

MS. RICHARDS: That's correct. We own it.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): That would be my worry, because, as you all know, the construction industry is never what you would call steady. It goes, as you said, Paul, it depends on what's happening in the economy, it depends on what part of the province you're in, and so on. I would like to see the program widened, to be offered in other parts of the province, and Cape Breton is a perfect example. We have a great

Nova Scotia Community College campus there in Sydney, and at the other end of the province as well. Probably the most people you attract come from rural Nova Scotia.

MS. RICHARDS: They do.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Therefore, it's limited to the fact - not that you're overly expensive, but it is a rather expensive program. I take it from what I've read that you approach $10,000 for a two-year course, plus books and everything else that goes with it, so there is a cost there. But to have it offered in other parts of the province, I think would be - I dare say you're getting more and I thought I saw the figure of 120 applicants that you get, is that in total?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Is that without making it too widely known? Do you advertise this sort of thing?

MS. RICHARDS: We do. We'll do road shows, we'll go to different events and do promotional activities. We do advertising in the newspaper, we advertise in partnership with Nova Scotia Community College, with their programs.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: We send packages out to every school and it's surprising the few people who actually call us. We say, if you want us to come to your school, we'll do a presentation on this program. I'm originally from Cape Breton, I have called . . .

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I took that by the MacDonald. (Laughter)

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: . . . some schools down there and sent e-mails and sent packages and I'm surprised that I don't get replies.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): I have never heard of it before and I would suggest perhaps that's because maybe it's coming from a private company and that if Nova Scotia Community College put more emphasis on it that you would probably get more of a reply from down there.

As you would know, Paul, it's still a big issue, the out-migration is still a big issue back home. We don't lose young people anymore, we lose entire families now to the West who are going out there. I think, as you said, there are some people who are finding their way back home because they find that once you get there, the streets are not always paved with gold and that perhaps a huge part of it is homesickness, as you can identify with.

I think this is probably a program that you should - maybe not you, but the Nova Scotia Community College I should be making this suggestion to - should be looking at widening this program to make it available to more people in this province.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Part of that problem is the stigma with the construction industry - it's unskilled, it's uneducated. Educators think that way, parents want, and I'm a parent now, you want better for your children, but if you look at the career - you know people don't look deeper into the industry itself and realize the valuable careers in there, from engineering to accounting. We have 1,300 employees and there are some very senior positions in there. Some of them have come up through the ranks and some of them through university, through community college, you name it, and they are all careers.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): That's probably the only suggestion that I have, that I would like - and also in construction, mobility is a huge issue, right, in the construction industry?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): You will train your people and you will find that they are perhaps not welcome in other parts of this country but, at the same time, you will find that they are very welcome in parts of the United States or whatever the case may be. I have known people all my life who have spent most of the time working in the construction industry but not in Nova Scotia. Anyway, that's another story another day.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: You know I find it very surprising that this type of model isn't being used elsewhere. I have met recently with a gentleman from Maine who sought me out to talk about this program because they're in the same boat. They are a construction company with about 2,400 employees and he needs 100 welders today. So they're looking at a program like this. SAIT, in Saskatchewan, called looking to implement this program out there.

You are seeing a little more of the community college getting into this, like providing meat-cutting courses or meat-packing courses and you're going to see more. I'm surprised this type of model - and I'm not trying to brag this program but - this partnership is not being used more because the need for talent is there.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Just one last comment and that would be, you make reference to perhaps if the Commonwealth Games bid comes through, you wouldn't have enough skilled labour in this province to do it. So at 35 a year, you probably wouldn't meet the demand either, right? It's just a point to be made. A very interesting presentation, thanks very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey, we're going to five-minute presentations now.

MS. MASSEY: Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I look at the numbers that you presented, in 2001 you're saying you had 300 applicants, so certainly there's a greater need than you're able to provide spaces for, I guess. So even though it's a good-news story, there's a flip side and those other 200-or-so people went away with nothing. Now whether or not they were qualified to take the program or what have you, it looks like at one point you had 120 of them, 60 went on to be interviewed. So if 60 were interviewed and then it went down to 35 seats, I guess that's an issue.

I agree with you when you say university is not the answer for everybody. I went to Akerley myself when it was a community college and I guess the bottom line there is that it should be a choice, you shouldn't be forced to go to community college because you can't afford something else. Maybe there are youth next door and over in Dartmouth, next to Akerley, who are going to Prince Andrew High School and they'd love, maybe they want to, they have a passion to be something and they simply cannot afford it because we know that a lot of the out-migration is being caused because of our high tuition rates in the province right now. People, a lot of them are moving out to Alberta and where have you, just to pay off that $45,000 debt because they want to be able to own a car, they don't want to be living at Mom's forever.

So I think all those issues - I mean your story is a good-news story but it just leaves me, I guess, as Official Opposition Critic, that's my job, to look at where the holes are in this and what can we be doing better, if we can possibly be doing it better, what should we be doing? So I'm concerned about these other 200-and-so youth - or we don't know how old they are - where did they go and what happened to them?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: One of the issues - I came from a meeting this morning, I'm on an education task force - and it ties in directly to our admissions program, is that to get into the Dexter Institute you need Grade 12 and we do some basic testing; spacial relations, reading comprehension, math which is at Grade 9 level, mechanical reasoning. We do that testing and if you don't have Grade 12, or get it by the time the program starts, you are automatically excluded.

When we did the math testing, and this is something that came up in our meeting this morning, we had over 60 per cent failure at Grade 9. It falls in line with the gentleman I spoke with at Michelin, who said out of 20 people they interview or test, 19 fail. So that's my point this morning, where is the disconnect? There is a disconnect in what they're learning in school. I found out through this year's testing that you don't need math in Grade 12 to graduate. Our testing is fractions, weights, measurements, files - I call it basic math. We had a 55 per cent to 60 per cent failure rate. That's what our discussion was this morning, why - we're looking at immigration, we're looking at this,

what about the - I don't know the proper term - underutilized or the potential employees, how do you engage them?

MS. MASSEY: They're unskilled, the people that you want . . .

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Yes, because there's a whole market there. What is the figure - if you increase the high school graduation by 1 per cent, there are 10,000 more employees. So how do you engage those people and make sure they get through the program with the necessary skills so that employers like myself, like the Michelins of the world, are able to hire them?

MS. MASSEY: I hope you pass this information along to the appropriate people in the Department of Education. I mean you're hitting on all those things, the dropout rate is high right now, it's somewhere around probably 14 per cent in urban Nova Scotia, in which they are harder hit to start with, and then you're hitting them with this. Maybe the reason why you're seeing - in your little write-up here you're saying that losing people out West isn't as big a problem. Perhaps it's because a lot of the skilled people, they have gone so maybe the well is dry, who knows. You don't know, we don't know what the answer is, but certainly we've got a high level of illiteracy in Nova Scotia; somewhere around 200,000 people, I think, are illiterate in Nova Scotia.

We have a lot of problems that are stopping people from going and getting - even though you're saying 300 applied, there are probably - there could be thousands who would love to have applied for that. I think what really struck me was that those 300 - you know, what are they doing today? Are they unemployed?

Another thing, and you touched on it, was . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm going to have to cut you off, you're already over.

Ms. Bolivar-Getson.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Back to the question, 300 people applied - what is the limitation, 30, 35, that you can take in the course?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: It's 35 right now.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Do you see that 35 meeting your needs in the years ahead, with 80 per cent retention?

MS. RICHARDS: Right now, yes. However, that's why we're starting to look at increasing the number of seats to 50 seats. We're looking, potentially, in 2008 of

increasing the program to 50 seats. We know there's going to be growth, just in the business alone that Dexter is doing.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: These students need their Grade 12 and they need a minimum of Grade 9 math level and so on. You still hire people without that?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Absolutely.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What percentage of your general labour workforce would not have Grade 12?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: I don't know the exact number but to give you an example, we implemented what we call the PAVE Program which is basically skills upgrading for existing employees. It prepared them to write a GED - whether they did or not was their choice, but we had over 100 people graduate through that program.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: My question is, how many are there still within the company who are probably some of your best operators and your best laborers?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Hundreds, easily.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And that market is still there for you, correct, to be able to tap into.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Oh, yes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: What percentage of employees are you hiring now that do not go through the Dexter Institute?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: A large percentage.

MS. RICHARDS: There's a very large percentage. However, I guess the only caveat to that would be that those people we hire, potentially as a labourer or as an operator, will always be a labourer or an operator, whereas . . .

[2:45 p.m.]

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It gives these individuals the opportunity to move up through . . .

MS. RICHARDS: Yes, absolutely. Again, it is a very generalized program. It's not just heavy equipment, it's not just surveying, it's really a broad spectrum of all aspects.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Again, I think that the program is a wonderful program and definitely is giving young people the opportunity to enter into the trades and enter into an area that for years we've forgotten about. We have tended to see students go to that university stream and forget, and I guess it's evident now in the labour force . . .

MS. RICHARDS: It is.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: . . . that we definitely need skilled labourers.

MS. RICHARDS: And what has been a great selling point for us has been going into parent-teacher meetings and going into different school and home association meetings and saying, mom and dad, you want to get your kids out of the house, don't worry about the cheese. (Laughter) Send them to the Dexter Institute because we'll give them a full-time job at the end of it, plus they earn while they learn. It's a win for us as well, for sure.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: The partnership that you have with Nova Scotia Community College, are you happy with that program?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Yes, the nice thing - and I see some of you have the MOU - is it's a continually evolving relationship. From our point of view, we will go out on the job sites and one of our superintendents or foremen will say, well, how come they're not learning this, we never thought of that, so we'll go to the community college and say, we want to add this in. We do have blasting awareness. (Laughter)

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: And not the blasting I spoke of.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: It's ever evolving. This year, and it doesn't show you on this, we have a third component of math. (Interruptions) Oh it is, year two, Applied Math 3, which is basically quantities and volumes. It's through discussions with our workforce, our existing workforce that knows what is needed in the industry, not just what's in a book. A simple thing in our practicum was chainsaw safety. A lot of the students coming out were cutting trees or cutting boards and a lot of times using a chainsaw.

MS. RICHARDS: How to hold a shovel.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: How to hold a shovel - there is an art to it, believe it or not.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: Through the Dexter Institute, are they trained with all their safety programs through Nova Scotia Community College, WHMIS, and everything else that would go along with that?

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: Yes.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: So they receive those courses.

MS. RICHARDS: They are all certified before they come out to their first work term.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired. With the committee's indulgence, I would like to ask a couple of questions. I'm probably one of the very few people in the Legislature today who has an industrial background. The program that you're doing is a program that was in place 50 years ago. This is not new technology, this is not a new idea. Years ago, employers would employ and train their own staff completely, through apprenticeship programs, everything. Then the vocational school system came along and supplemented that, and worked with the businesses to do that.

I commend you for bringing that back. I think there have been too many academics who have decided what's good for industry, and industry has suffered and has suffered badly because of it. The skill level, like you say, with the schools is atrocious. We're getting people who can't read or write out of Grade 12, and they get a Grade 12 certificate. I've asked this question, and many teachers have told me, that between Grades 7 and 12, you can only fail once in the school system, no matter what. As long as you show up for class, you grade each year and they push you through to Grade 12. Now teachers have told me this, and they're very upset about it, because they want to train the people they're paid to train and work with them. That's what you're seeing, that's what I saw when I was in business. It's very difficult, especially when you have to have highly-skilled people with great math - particularly math - skills and writing skills to do these jobs. It's very difficult.

Again, I want to commend Dexter for taking this approach. The community college is a wonderful place, but they can only work with what they have to work with. Oftentimes they put programs together - I know I was on an advisory board with the Halifax Vocational School when it was the vocational school, before it went to the community college and the community college in Dartmouth. Some of their programs, it's very difficult for them, training young people and getting them out in the workforce. I hope this is the beginning of a lot of good things, that industry is going to work with the system.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: I certainly hope so, too. Vocational seems to be a dirty word now in the education system. The high school I graduated from, Memorial

High School in North Sydney, is the only vocational high school in Nova Scotia. I still have ties with an individual who just retired down there. They had to turn people away from that class. There's such a need. We have to go back to a vocational system. They mentioned the Department of Education, that they're implementing a basic math again. It's things like that, the inroads that they have to put back in place to make sure that people don't fall through the cracks and don't get their Grade 12 or aren't pushed toward a certain career path that isn't good for them.

In light of one of your comments you made earlier, I was asked to speak at the Nova Scotia School Boards Association, superintendents annual general meeting. I told them that they're part of the problem. They are by far part of the problem. They only promote or see university avenues - not the trade area. We need to get back to that basic level.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The problem I found, too, I went through the vocational system, and in Grade 12 of the vocational system, we were taking advanced trigonometry, calculus and all the things you take in first year mathematics in university, and second year in university - that has all been stopped. I can tell you when I went to work in the industry I was some glad I had those skills. A lot of the industry, a lot of the trades in particular, need a tremendous amount of mathematics.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: It's unbelievable.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just to do their daily work. It's very difficult.

MR. PAUL MACDONALD: That's the number one thing we learn as a human resource program. We tell people right up front, who are looking at this program, there's a lot of math involved. Our industry is all math, it's volumes, weights, measures. If you have an incorrect calculation, that can be detrimental. It surprises people - well, what do you mean there are three components of math? That's our biggest complaint with our students.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Those are all my questions. Again, I want to congratulate you for the fine work you're doing, and hopefully other industries pick up on it. I know the community college will work with you.

The next thing we have on our agenda here, we have to discuss our next meeting on January 30^th at 9:00 a.m. We don't have any witness coming in on that date. Is it the wish of the committee to have a witness on that date, and if so, we have a list there on the table, who would you like it to be?

MR. PARKER: Community access to schools, is that a possibility, to have somebody from the Department of Education or elsewhere speak to us about that? I know

it's an issue I run across in my riding from time to time - there's a school there and we, as a community group, can't access it without paying a large fee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That sounds very good to me, because I have the same problem. Is there concurrence with that? Maybe if I could suggest, maybe we could get somebody come in who is having trouble getting access to a school, so we can get the information first-hand?

MR. PARKER: That would be nice, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If we could find somebody, I have someone in mind in my area who could come in.

MS. MASSEY: I missed the question.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Someone who was having trouble getting access to a school, an organization.

MS. MASSEY: Or the cost is a lot, is that what you mean?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Whatever the reason is, maybe a couple of people come in.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I think we definitely want representation here from the Department of Education on this.

MS. MASSEY: The Nova Scotia School Boards Association?

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: It would be nice to have someone, yes, from the School Boards Association.

MS. MASSEY: That would be provincial, we would get the whole picture.

MS. BOLIVAR-GETSON: I'm sure we each have individual cases within our communities that we could bring one in but . . .

MS. MASSEY: We can talk about it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If you'd like to maybe bring a couple of people in, if anyone has an idea forward it to Mrs. Henry and we can look at that. I know I have one person.

MR. BAIN: One of the issues would be the liability issue, too. I guess, probably with your involvement with NSSBA, would be the SAP program, the insurance issue,

because that's why the insurance, the liability issue has made it much more difficult. So there could be some answers that could come there, too.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I think it would be - so if you have any ideas of who you would like to come in, we'll definitely bring in the School Boards Association and the Department of Education. Anyone else you would like on that list, just let us know in lots of time, maybe by the first week in January, anyone you would maybe like to invite and we'll sort of pare it down to a sensible group.

If everyone agrees with that, a motion to adjourn is in order.

MR. BAIN: So moved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We stand adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 2:55 p.m.]