HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. Ronald Chisholm (Chairman)

Mr. Brooke Taylor

Mr. Cecil O'Donnell

Mr. Frank Corbett

Mr. Howard Epstein

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Russell MacKinnon

Mr. Leo Glavine

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Ms. Joan Massey was replaced by Mr. William Estabrooks.]

[Mr. Leo Glavine was replaced by Mr. Daniel Graham.]

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

Ms. Shealagh McGrath

Agencies, Boards and Commissions

Database Coordinator

Executive Council

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, JANUARY 25, 2005

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

4:00 P.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Ronald Chisholm

MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess we have a quorum to start. We will bring the meeting of the Human Resources Standing Committee to order. First of all, I guess, I want to thank everybody for making the changes to their schedules by being here today at 4:00 p.m. instead of 9:00 a.m. I guess the snowstorm tied up all of us, so on behalf of myself as the chairman of the committee, I would thank everybody for making that change.

With that, the only thing we have to deal with today is the ABCs. The Department of Education staff who were going to be in here for student debt, we will deal with a little later on the agenda, try to reschedule that. We have a couple of dates that we will present to the committee for that.

So anyway, I guess the first thing on the agenda then is the appointments to the ABCs.

MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, would you do introductions for recording purposes?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, yes. Sorry about that. We should go around the table for introductions, starting with Mr. Estabrooks.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now we will get into the appointments to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, I so move Leo J. Cox to be a member and Chairman of the Farm Loan Board.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Community Services, Tri-County Housing Authority, I so move Theresa Dalton as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Youth Advisory Council of the Department of Education, I so move Sarah Lefurgey and Ashley Smith as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question?

MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I don't have an issue per se with either of the two candidates. They have rather impressive curriculum vitaes but I am a little bit concerned about the questionnaire that was posed to one of the two candidates for application, although it is an optional issue, but it is something I have never seen before for any of the previous candidates and I'm a little concerned. The Optional section states, "The Nova Scotia Youth Advisory Council strives to be as representative in its membership as possible. To this end, if you are a member of one of the following groups or another group whose perspective you would represent on the council, please indicate below."

Then they go through a series, a menu of issues: Race - African Nova Scotian, Aboriginal, Asian; Gender - Male, Female; Culture - Acadian, Other (specify); Sexual Orientation - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual; and the final, "Are you a person with a disability?" I'm a little perplexed why those questions are there because they are for this particular candidate. I've never seen it for any other candidate and that question is not posed for the second candidate, Ms. Smith. I was just wondering if maybe somebody from the Executive Council might be able to speak to that particular issue, what the rationale is.

MS. SHEALAGH MCGRATH: I believe that's an on-line application form so this lady might have gone on-line and filled that out herself but the other one did not.

MR. MACKINNON: I just want to be clear on this, so there are two different types of applications?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe we could get you to come to the mic if you are going to answer.

MS. MCGRATH: I'm not sure about this but I think the Youth Secretariat might have put this out themselves.

MR. MACKINNON: I could just flag it. I didn't even know if it was appropriate or if it was . . .

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, just on a point of order, as you know, these pages aren't numbered and I would just like to follow the member because I'm quite interested.

MR. MACKINNON: Under the CV of Ms. Lefurgey, her application, the back page to her application. We will just take it on notice. If we could get a general response on that because it seems to be breaking some new territory here.

MS. MCGRATH: Yes, Ashley Smith filled out the same one but I see that Page 2 is not showing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will try to get some more information on that.

Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Finance, Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation, I so move Sean O'Connor and Peter Fardy as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graham.

MR. DANIEL GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I do have some comments and a motion that will go with that accordingly. First I should say that this matter, the appointment of Mr. O'Connor came to my attention only over the weekend. Yesterday was a storm day and I have begun the process of raising this matter with my colleagues. The matter of gambling addictions and the growing problem in Nova Scotia has continued to be of great concern to Nova Scotians and we are all aware that in the last seven or eight years, particularly, the problem of addictions in Nova Scotia has been on the rise. There appear to have been 6,400 problem gamblers back in, I believe it was, 1988. That number has grown to the number of 15,000.

I am also aware that the problem of addressing addictions does not rest solely with the Gaming Corporation. Indeed, there is another arm of government, the Gaming

Foundation, that is more responsible for this problem in terms of addressing it than the Gaming Corporation. However, the Gaming Corporation has been centrally associated with, for example, the consultation paper that has recently been circulated. They are also involved in Responsible Gaming Week. They are involved in activities that may or may not increase addictions.

I have said in the past, and I repeat again today, that the responsibility for correcting this problem rests at a political level. There is a great deal that can be done below a political level to ensure that we get the results that we need and for there to be more responsible gaming in our province. The experiment with VLTs, in particular, has been a failed one in Nova Scotia. Responsibility for that problem rests with many people.

During the time that this nominee was the Chairman of the Gaming Corporation, there have been warnings from experts that the introduction of bill acceptors was going to increase addictions. That advice was ignored. There was warning from experts that speeding up machines was going to increase addictions. That advice was warned.

This Gaming Corporation has been involved in moving VLT machines from low-volume locations to high-volume locations. GPI Atlantic recently suggested that the materials that they produce for Responsible Gaming Week were, in some respects, insincere and did as much to promote the attractiveness of gambling as it did to promote responsible gambling. Lastly, the consultation process that it has been involved in is described by some as being a hollow sham.

In all the circumstances, given the gravity of the problems that face Nova Scotians when it comes to VLT addictions, the motion that I would put on the floor is that we defer the appointment of Mr. O'Connor to a date later, perhaps in four weeks or so.

The present government has indicated that in early 2005 it would come forward with a gaming strategy. We expect that that will happen sometime soon. Once we see the gaming strategy, which the Gaming Corporation has a significant role in developing, then my clear sense is that we will be in a better position to determine this.

This isn't to hang the total responsibility for our problems on the shoulders of Mr. O'Connor. It is, however, to send a clear message that what has happened, to this date, under his watch from the Gaming Corporation, has not met the standard that Nova Scotians would find agreeable.

I so move.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Estabrooks.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Firstly, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to clarify what the motion says. I know the member for Halifax Citadel feels very passionately about this topic and I congratulate him on that. The motion was to say that this was to be deferred to a later date, or was there a mention of a time frame of four weeks? I'm just wondering what the motion specifically says.

MR. GRAHAM: I would be agreeable to a friendly amendment, certainly, if there was a suggestion of any time in the next four to six weeks, that would certainly be an agreeable part of any motion that I would put forward.

MR. TAYLOR: On a point of order, just on procedure, Mr. Chairman. We do have a motion on the floor, do we not?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: I believe, before we entertain another motion, we have to deal with that motion.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Absolutely. It was just a question but I have some comments, if I may, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: On the original motion?

MR. ESTABROOKS: Absolutely.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Let me tell you where I was. I can tell you exactly. It was August 20^th. I was on Prince Edward Island. I don't regularly read The Charlottetown Guardian and I can tell you the reasons why. But I took that paper that day because in that paper that day, on the sports page - and I guess I should say, personally, I respect where you're coming from, Danny, but then in return, on that day in The Guardian - I read that Francis MacKenzie, who at that time was campaigning for the leadership of the Liberal Party is in P.E.I. supporting racinos, and there were certain numbers of VLTs that were going to be put at the CDP, and that there were another 100 or so that were going to go to the Summerside Race Track.

I can tell you, that stuck deep in my craw because I think members in this House will know, they have heard me speak at length about VLTs, they have heard me speak about the dangers of them and there is no doubt that some of these authority people who are put in there to maintain and run the Gaming Corporation have concerns.

[4:15 p.m.]

But I ask this, how many Liberal leaders are there? How many Liberal policies are there on the gaming policies in this province? That really concerns me. It concerns me to the extent, Mr. Chairman, that if we are going to use these two positions, if we are going to use Mr. O'Connor and we are going to use Mr. Fardy as the test case, as the lightening rods for this - you know, if we have concerns about this government, we take this government on in the House. We take the Premier on in the House. We take the particular minister on in the House on this issue. But to delay it at this stage says to me it's more of a political statement when, really, your strongly-held convictions aside, Mr. Graham - I mean, those are personal opinions and I think that it is time that we look at what is actually at the root of the problem here.

The root of the problem comes down to the fact that I, as a backbencher in my caucus, speak of one topic when it comes to this particular one. We all sing from the same songsheet, yet, in return - recently I have been following some of the releases and some of the topics of the now Liberal Leader of this province, endorsing VLTs. In fact, putting them into racinos as we revive the harness racing business with this particular use of VLTs.

So at this stage, I certainly would like to hear more conversation about this possible delay because if this is political grandstanding - maybe I'm doing some of it now, Danny (Laughter) - okay, Russell, you'll get your shot. But I'm telling you, speak from one side of the mouth that you're speaking on, on this. You've got a Leader who's promoting racinos and, in turn, we are going to hold hostage these appointments for a period of time so that we can demonstrate that we should have responsible gaming in this province.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. O'Donnell.

MR. O'DONNELL: I was just going to question whether a motion could be put on the floor while a motion is there, unless there was an amendment to the motion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we are on the original motion.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Well, the original motion was to make the appointment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Right.

MR. EPSTEIN: Then there was an amendment to that which was to delay it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, there was another motion to defer.

MR. EPSTEIN: Well, I would have thought that is always in order. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion to defer is in order, yes.

MR. GRAHAM: Motion to defer this until a later date. My assumption is that that would take precedence over the first motion.

MR. EPSTEIN: That's my understanding too. We take a vote on that.

MR. GRAHAM: Yes, right.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. MacKinnon, do you have a word?

MR. MACKINNON: Just a few. I mean, I'm not going to be as prolific as some speakers. (Laughter)

MR. ESTABROOKS: I wonder what your policy is going to be.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, I believe I am usually consistent, Bill, and you know that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Stick to the issue here.

MR. MACKINNON: Precisely, Mr. Chairman. On both of these candidates, they asked the issue of gender equity and they indicate that is satisfied. I believe they also indicate that there were 15 individuals that applied for positions on this board. My question, were there any females? None?

MS. MCGRATH: None that we know of.

MR. MACKINNON: No? Well, why don't we have that information here? This is a very important piece of information.

See, the reason why I raise that, it is not just to come down on one side of the issue on the gender equity thing because each and every one of these individuals are all re-appointments. The concern has been raised about a certain kind of status quo mindset that is evolving that seems to be more focused on generating as much money as possible, regardless of what the consequences are. For example, I don't know Mr. O'Connor any more than, perhaps, most people around this table but he seems to be very keen on the revenue objectives for the Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation, as well as the Atlantic Lottery Corporation. He has even gone to great lengths to take credit for the $5 million to $6 million agreement that took place between the provincial government, as you recall, Mr. Chairman, back in 1998 when the then Minister of Finance, Don Downe, wanted to pull out of Atlantic Lottery Corporation because New Brunswick wasn't giving its fair share.

Then, of course, that went by the way when the government changed and then the following Minister of Finance, the Honourable Neil LeBlanc, took over and said, okay, well, we're going to stay in but we want it renegotiated. Then, all of a sudden, we see this

individual taking the credit for it. Then, the focus of most of his CV is, for example, that he led the management and reporting of over $1 billion in revenues. It just goes on. Everything is all about revenues and the issue of responsible gaming is a concern, particularly with VLTs.

I know some of these individuals on there, for example, Mr. Mont. At the risk of being criticized, for as long as I've been coming since 1988, he's been on boards and commissions almost every year, every day of every year. There's no new blood, if I could put that in there. And on the issue of gender equity, how can you say it's satisfied when we don't know if any females even applied. There's not one female candidate on this board. I would think that would be an issue of concern.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe the role of this committee is to either approve or not approve the names that come forward.

MR. MACKINNON: That's true, Mr. Chairman, and I agree. A basic question - we don't even know if any female candidates applied. I'm sure there are some very able female candidates out there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We could probably get that information at a later date.

MR. MACKINNON: But what's the value of it now?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I might just say, and you're right that the committee usually but not always approves or disapproves appointments. On occasion we have, until more information has been compiled for example, stood motions, we have stood names and stood motions. Then, sometimes, after the information that members, with justification, are seeking, we have brought the name back and deliberated it.

I can kind of sense the way the stars are lining up here that they're pretty well, perhaps evenly across the board, but I don't want to prejudge that, Mr. Chairman, that's your job when you call for a vote. I will just point out to Mr. Graham that we have stood motions. Potentially it's essentially doing the same thing. You're suggesting a deferral of four weeks? I thought it was a stand-alone motion at first. I'm just not sure of the procedural . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's deal with the deferral first. Mr. Graham, the final word to you.

MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the step that I've proposed is a modest one. If I was looking to grandstand, then we would be looking to oppose the appointment of this gentleman to the chair of this board. I'm looking for practical results, though. This is, I would

suggest, a practical step that has the purpose of achieving a result. It's nothing more and nothing less than that. I think it's transparent by the framing of this that it certainly sends a message, it puts the government on notice that we're in the time of a minority government and this is something to take seriously.

I won't respond to everything that's been put forward by my friend, Mr. Estabrooks. Certainly reports are never fully in context, about what happened. I would encourage my friend to take a transcript from the comments provided by our Leader as recently as last week, I believe, on the Rick Howe show, it might have been the week before, where he indicated a very strong, firm stand with respect to this, and also an indication that our position will be coming forward over time.

That's clear, that's on the record. This is a practical step, it's not grandstanding. I don't think anyone could possibly see it as that. This is one of those rare opportunities, Mr. Chairman, where members of a committee have some real, practical input to substantive government policy. I would certainly urge the members of the committee to consider it favourably.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess we have to deal with the deferral.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

MR. MACKINNON: What's the question?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is defeated.

The question was the deferral for a month.

MR. GRAHAM: Could we have a recorded vote on that please, Mr. Chairman?

YEAS NAYS

Mr. Graham Mr. Estabrooks

Mr. MacKinnon Mr. Epstein

Ms. Whalen Mr. Chisholm

Mr. Taylor

Mr. O'Donnell

MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is defeated.

We'll go back to the original motion, which was Mr. O'Donnell's, for the appointment to . . .

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, before we move on to that, could we have an undertaking from our representative from the Executive Council that she will report back on this gender equity issue?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think you could request that through the chairman.

MR. MACKINNON: Yes, that's what I'm asking. Somebody must be . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The chairman will request the information that you were looking for. Darlene, there will be a record of it. We will endeavour to get that information.

Ms. Whalen.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: If I could, just another question, as well, that I would like to have answered, and that is with Mr. Fardy, his name had come forward in February 2004 for a one-year appointment, and I was surprised to see his name again, being reappointed now. There was some reason why a year ago he was only appointed for a single year. I understood at the time that it was because they were refreshing the board and were bringing new people on, and that he was just staying on for that shorter period of time.

I reviewed the Hansard on it, couldn't find any information or any discussion at the time. So could we have that clarified, because I think the issue that is very important on all of these committees - and we've talked at length about it and I, myself, have - is the fact that we put people back on the same boards time after time. I agree that there should be some experience, but there should also be a stated objective to encourage new ideas and new thinking on these boards as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will endeavour to get that information for you.

Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add, we've sat around this committee several times and discussed the fact that we're striving for more gender equity, and the member for Cape Breton West did raise a valid point, and I know you know that many times we've tried our very best, and I think on many occasions have succeeded, but here, as is clearly pointed out, they are all males on that committee. I'm not saying they're not qualified, they're perhaps more than qualified, I have confidence that they'll certainly carry out their duties professionally, but as the member requested we should perhaps have that type of information. It would give us a better understanding of how many people are applying and their gender, et cetera. It's very important.

MR. MACKINNON: I know, Mr. Chairman, the member for Halifax Needham would certainly make that point very eloquently.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, she would.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We do have a motion on the floor, Mr. O'Donnell's motion for the appointments to the Gaming Corporation of Nova Scotia, Mr. Sean O'Connor and Mr. Peter Gerard Fardy.

Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, I have a further motion, if I may. I would like to move: Be it resolved that this committee hereby emphasizes that the nominees for the membership of the Gaming Corporation of Nova Scotia should always keep in mind that there are thousands of Nova Scotians struggling with gambling addiction and should oppose new or additional gaming-related activities, such as the establishment of a racino and other VLT-expanded activities. I have this written out, Mrs. Henry, if you'd like a copy of it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: Earlier on the honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect, who is a seasoned veteran around the Legislature, spoke about a racino. I have absolutely no idea what a racino is. I want to be honest with you, before I could ever support a motion like that, I think, with justification, I would like to be more informed. Again, I appreciate the member's assessment. No doubt there's some validity in it, but I'm sure that some of my colleagues opposite may have a different opinion of the member's definition. In that sense I would have to, at the very least, abstain from the motion, with regret. I would ask him to perhaps consider withdrawing it until we're more informed on what a racino is, because I clearly don't know, Bill.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I'm no expert on it, but I can tell you from the experience that I've seen on Prince Edward Island and what the plans are, it's not a direction that the Gaming Corporation should be taking in this province. I understand that you might have reservations about this expanded use of VLTs, but that's basically the bottom line on how I see it and what's going to happen on the Island. I do not want it to continue to happen here. I wanted a message sent to these newly-appointed people that we are concerned, and I think the member for Halifax Citadel would support that, but then in return, anything that involves a racino is a concern of expanded VLT use and we should oppose it.

[4:30 p.m.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.

MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I concur with my colleague, the member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. What is happening here is a little unprecedented. It's not the way this committee operates. This type of petty, political grandstanding is of little value to the merits and the contributions to what has to be done. If there is some legitimacy to the issue that is raised, fine, I have no problems with that but to come in here with this type of approach to a very serious issue, I find is most unsettling and unpalatable. I would expect that any professional who is worth his or her salt would expect other members to examine with full due diligence before casting an opinion one way or the other and I think that, at the very minimum, is what should be expected.

We've done it before. We generally serve notice. We don't play these types of games at the expense of people who do have some serious problems with gambling and it's a very serious issue for all stakeholders, including the ones sitting around this table. I would ask, out of respect, that at the very minimum, the honourable member withdraw the motion at least until a future day when we have a better chance to examine the merits of it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Stand the motion for a month?

MR. MACKINNON: I move that the motion be stood for 30 days.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graham.

MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, if I could speak on the motion or the amendment movement. I do this by asking quite seriously, what is the purpose of this Standing Committee on Human Resources? Is the purpose of the Standing Committee on Human Resources to pass motions or approve appointments to agencies, boards and commissions? In these circumstances, there is a qualitative difference between the petty response of the NDP and the practical motion that was put forward by the Liberal caucus. They stand in marked contrast with each other. On the one hand, in advance of this meeting, mind you I indicated to the committee that the first opportunity that I had to find out about this was over the weekend and the first opportunity I had to speak with someone from the NDP caucus was this afternoon, approximately one hour before this meeting just to give them a sense of what was going on. There was a commitment that we would have a discussion before this meeting. It's clear from what has been tabled that this was typed and written before the members of the NDP caucus arrived today.

Rather than engage in a serious discussion about whether the motion that we have put forward, which is a practical one within the boundaries of what the ABC process is in the Human Resources Committee, they chose instead, clearly, to grandstand. It's unfortunate that there is an opportunity here for both Opposition Parties to work together to an end that would be to the benefit of Nova Scotians, that would have some practical ramifications but we appear to have squandered that opportunity and instead the message that will potentially come out of all of this is that the Opposition Parties can't agree on something that

fundamentally, I think, there is strong agreement on. That is unfortunate and I'm not sure where it all began.

It clearly was an act of good faith on our part when we put this motion forward and it harkens back to certainly the spirit that I held when the New Democrats on the home care issue, some time ago, came forward with a proposal and showed some leadership on that, and when they succeeded in their achievements, it was our Party that was among those who applauded their success and, in fact, remarked on it on a number of occasions. It's unfortunate that when it comes to a time when it's clear that we are ready to take some clear action, we run into the problems that we have. I support the motion to stand this in the circumstances and my remarks stand as they are.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: I now have a copy of the motion and I do have to say, Mr. Chairman, we generally understand the intent of the NDP motion here but the fact still remains that for many of us - I trust I can say for many of us - we clearly don't know the difference between a racino and a "hyeno" for example. I'm being very genuine here. I think that possibly the member would maybe consider, or you could, Mr. Chairman, if the motion is stood, if, in fact we want to go down - I'm not sure we would want to go down that path. As I understand it, this may be a position, may be a platform that is a work in progress for the Liberal Party and other Parties have positions that other Parties may not agree with. I'm not sure if we want to go down that road.

This is very unique to this committee. It's something that we haven't engaged in in the past but again, that's not to say that the committee can't deal with motions. We have also done that. But this here, to my way of thinking, like I said earlier, I couldn't support it so I will be voting against the motion and in support of the motion being stood, if it prevails.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Estabrooks.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Firstly, I would like to clarify, the member for Halifax Citadel at no time spoke to me an hour in advance.

MR. GRAHAM: It was your colleague.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I have the floor at this stage and I would like to also point out to the member opposite, we were looking to send a message. We are going to send a message to these nominees. We are going to send a message that we are serious about this problem in this province. That was the intent of the motion that you brought forward earlier when you wanted to defer this so there was the lightening rod of these two nominees and that they were going to be held in abeyance, would send a message to them how concerned we are. So in return, I decided that along with some advice at our caucus - and I was not talking to the

member for Halifax Chebucto - that I would introduce this motion. This is an extension of what gaming is in this province and I believe it is a motion that will send a very clear message to the two new nominees that we are not interested in more VLTs and we are not interested in racinos. I do not intend to withdraw the motion. I believe that the motion should be dealt with. If it is stood, that is the wish of the committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we do have a motion to stand the motion, it's on the table. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is stood.

Okay, where are we? Municipal Board of Police Commissioners.

MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Justice, Municipal Board of Police Commissioners, Kentville, I so move Allan Bruce as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question?

MR. MACKINNON: I'm trying to get a little more detail on this, Mr. Chairman, on Mr. Bruce. The other candidates, it said there were four other applications. Is that correct?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There were four.

MR. MACKINNON: I need some clarification. Was he recommended by the minister?

MR. CHAIRMAN: In the question, "Was this person solicited to apply for this position?", the answer here is no.

MR. MACKINNON: Well, we have seen that question answered no before only to come back and find out that wasn't quite correct. Ms. Haliburton confirmed that, but anyway.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, the motion is on the floor. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, Certified General Accountants Association of Nova Scotia, I so move Gregg Knudsen and Lantz Siteman as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, Real Estate Appraisers Association Board of Directors, I so move Valerie Folk and Douglas McNeil as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Some of the committee business that we have left over, an alternate date for the Office of the Ombudsman. I think that was scheduled for two weeks ago, January 14^th or January 18^th, somewhere around there anyway. We have a date that looks half decent, I guess. It's February 1^st, next Tuesday.

MR. TAYLOR: We scheduled Economic Development for February 10^th, didn't we?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. So is February 1^st all right with everyone?

MS. WHALEN: Do we know what time?

MR. CHAIRMAN: At 9:00 a.m. The Ombudsman will be in speaking on the wrongdoing, the whistleblowers, Dwight Bishop.

Then today's meeting, the Department of Education, student debt, was on. The deputy minister and someone else was scheduled to be here so we have to reschedule for that again. Do you want to do that at our next meeting on February 1^st?

MR. MACKINNON: Or we could just leave it for our clerk, if it's agreeable with all members, just whenever is most convenient.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The clerk and the chairman? Okay.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, could we clarify again - I recall having had the opportunity to represent Ms. Massey at that committee also - we are getting Mr. Cochrane, is that correct?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Who is the other person we have requested?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Kevin Chapman. He is Manager of Student Assistance.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you. That's who we want.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So that will take place on February - no, we will decide that on February 1^st if we don't have a date before that. What else do we have? That's it. The next meeting for the ABCs is February 22^nd. We're done.

The committee is adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 4:43 p.m.]