HANSARD

and

Department of Education (Student Debt)

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. Ronald Chisholm (Chairman)

Mr. Brooke Taylor

Mr. Cecil O'Donnell

Mr. Frank Corbett

Mr. Howard Epstein

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Russell MacKinnon

Mr. Leo Glavine

Ms. Diana Whalen

[Mr. Ronald Chisholm was replaced by Mr. William Dooks.]

[Mr. Frank Corbett was replaced by Mr. William Estabrooks.]

[Mr. Russell MacKinnon was replaced by Mr. Daniel Graham.]

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

Mr. Keith Colwell

MLA, Preston

WITNESSES

Department of Education

Mr. Dennis Cochrane

Deputy Minister

Mr. Kevin Chapman

Manager, Student Assistance

Mr. Bill Turpin

Communications Advisor

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 2005

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Ronald Chisholm

MS. DIANA WHALEN (Chairman): We are called to order. I just want to get started because it is after 9:00 a.m. and we have guests this morning as well. We don't want to cut the time short for our discussion on student debt. I wonder if, just for the record, everybody would please go around and introduce themselves. Maybe we will start with Mr. Glavine.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I wonder if we could go right into the agencies, boards and commissions. We will do that work first. We have one letter first, one old business. There is a letter on your desk that we hadn't seen. It just arrived yesterday at the clerk's office. It's in answer to questions that had come up in the last meeting of our committee. If there are any questions or whatnot, we can talk about that just now. I know it is the first time you have seen it, so just take a moment.

MS. JOAN MASSEY: Madam Chairman, the second question, the answer was that of the 15 applicants who applied to the board, two were female. I have noticed that, for example, in today's package of ABCs, we don't always get a breakdown of even how many people actually applied and then when we do get the breakdown of how many people applied, it doesn't always break it down by female and male so I think we still have a little bit of a problem with everybody giving us the same information. So I just wanted to note that.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think that is good to point out. Maybe we could again ask our committees if they would send that information with them. I think we should do that because it is something we ask every time. Otherwise, we might end up here wanting to hold something up because we don't have that information. So good point. Are there any other comments on that correspondence? If not, we can move forward with the appointments.

So we will go right into the agencies, boards and commissions. Do you want to make one of the motions?

MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: Madam Chairman, to the Farm Loan Board of Nova Scotia, under the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, I so move Leo J. Cox as chairman/member, Carol Versteeg as vice-chairman/member and Victor Moses as a board member.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Community Services is the next one.

MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: Madam Chairman, to the Department of Community Services, Housing Authorities, South Shore, I so move H. Frederick Bland as a member.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The Department of Environment and Labour, Fuel Safety Advisory Board.

MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Madam Chairman, to the Fuel Safety Advisory Board, I so move Winston Burke, Harvey Fedyk, John McCormack and James D. Wilkie as board members.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Power Engineers and Operators Board.

MR. O'DONNELL: Madam Chairman, to the Power Engineers and Operators Board, I so move Barrie W. Fiolek, Gordon D. MacNeil, John D. MacNeil and Curtis L. Purdy as board members.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. DOOKS: Madam Chairman, for the Department of Finance, Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission, I so move Tom Calkin as chairman/member, and I. David Covill and Clinton E. Schofield as members.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Yes, in taking a look at this particular commission, I have noticed that all five positions have the same final date for the duration of the terms of the Bridge Commission. Normally there is a chairman, a secretary and three members. I am just wondering why all five wouldn't be appointed at the same time since their official duties end on March 14^th and I'm not sure if our committee will be meeting again. Why would they leave two positions unfilled? That's one of the questions and I guess perhaps we don't have somebody here today who could tell us, for example, about even the date of closing for these positions. I wonder, were there some difficulties with applicants' paperwork and so forth? There are a number of, I guess, questions around the five positions and only three being presented today. I'm not speaking against the three that are being presented, I'm just at a loss as to why the entire Bridge Commission would not be replaced at the same time.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Any further comments? I think the question does need to be asked if there are five members and only three are being reappointed to appear to expire in the next month. What would you suggest?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): I can find out and get back to the committee.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, so that answer can come back to the committee for the next meeting?

MRS. HENRY: Yes.

MR. GLAVINE: And the date of closing, their applications as well, just in case there is some connection with applicants not being in on time or processed or whatever. I think there's a wonderment around this as well.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, so we will make sure that correspondence goes off and there is a letter back by next month, definitely.

So we will continue. The question has already been placed.

Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The next one is the Department of Health, AIDS Advisory Commission.

MR. TAYLOR: Madam Chairman, to the Advisory Commission on AIDS, I so move Margaret Dwyer; Pamela Fry; William Hart, Ph.D.; and Shannon Taylor as members.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Health Authorities, District #2, South West Nova.

MR. O'DONNELL: Madam Chairman, to the Health Authorities, District #2, South West Nova, I so move Brian Coker as a member.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Health Research Foundation.

MR. DOOKS: Madam Chairman, to the Health Research Foundation of Nova Scotia, I so move Maureen Summers as a member.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

College of Licensed Practical Nurses.

MR. TAYLOR: Madam Chairman, to the College of Licensed Practical Nurses, I so move Fred Beaton as a member.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Board of Examiners in Optometry is the next one.

MR. O'DONNELL: Madam Chairman, to the Board of Examiners in Optometry, I so move Dr. Andrea Hawkins, Dr. Sheldon Pothier and Dr. Timothy Winslade as board members.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Nova Scotia College of Pharmacists. Mr. Dooks.

MR. DOOKS: Madam Chairman, to the Nova Scotia College of Pharmacists, I so move Tom Mahaffey as a member. (Interruptions)

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

We are making good progress. The next one is the Office of Health Promotion, Nova Scotia Boxing Authority.

MR. TAYLOR: Madam Chairman, to the Office of Health Promotion, Nova Scotia Boxing Authority, I so move Ricky Anderson and David Grace as members.

MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Excuse me, Madam Chairman, I don't want to tie up the meeting but I am going to. I know the topic has been brought up numerous times about gender equity. Now if there is any vestige of the old boys' club in this province, no reflection on the current people who have been there, a number of them for many years, I think it's about time, considering - I mean have you seen probably the best movie of the year, Million Dollar Baby? I mean we don't need any other examples aside from Doris Hackl from Pugwash who gained some prominence as a woman boxer. I heard from a friend recently in Montreal whose daughter is interested in going into boxing. Coincidentally, his son is interested in ballet so I mean I guess we have equity there.

[9:15 a.m.]

I would ask - if we could and if this committee would entertain the thought, or if it's necessary to have a motion - could we send a letter to Health Promotion, asking them to actively recruit a representative on the Boxing Authority, to have a seat designated on the authority for a woman? I'm sitting in today for Mr. Corbett, excuse me, I didn't introduce that earlier.

I was looking over these things last evening and believe it or not, my wife and I do talk politics on occasion and she brought it up as a result, I guess, of Million Dollar Baby. If you haven't seen the movie, I would encourage you to go see it, aside from the fact that there are some Oscars on the line there. I don't know the feeling of the committee or if it's appropriate to direct Health Promotion but I would like some direction from maybe some of the committee members who are here regularly.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: We won't take the gloves off on this one, Bill, but, Madam Chairman, I would say the member is raising an extremely good point. I think there are nine members on the Boxing Authority and they are all males. However, I would say that I do know, for example, Ricky Anderson - and a number of people around this table would agree, and I know the member isn't speaking against these particular names - I really believe Ricky is an excellent member and has a great track record with the commission and a great track record with young people fighting against drugs. As well, as an aside, he certainly represents the visible minorities in this province so I wouldn't want to do anything to compromise the position of Mr. Anderson.

The member does raise a good point, perhaps we could request that a position be made available or at least find out how many females have applied - that would be interesting as well - I don't think that information is in here. I think that is a good suggestion.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Madam Chairman, I would suggest that you, as the acting chairman, communicate to Health Promotion that we would like to have them be more proactive in recruiting a woman to serve on the authority. We're looking forward to the next round of appointments for gender equity and the popularity of the sport among women, that we'll see a woman on the Boxing Authority next time.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, that's good. I don't think we need any motion to that effect. We can send a letter and ask them to be aware of that for the next round of appointments so that will be done, as well.

So we have the question for the appointment to the Boxing Authority. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. O'DONNELL: Madam Chairman, for the Department of Justice, Human Rights Commission, I so move Ron Dawson and Eunice Harker as commissioners.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. DOOKS: Madam Chairman, for the Municipal Board of Police Commissioners, Amherst, I so move John G. Kline as a member.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: Madam Chairman, for the Voluntary Planning Board of Nova Scotia, I so move Dr. Teresa MacNeil as director/vice-chairman, and Dr. J. Colin Dodds; J.D. (Jim) Eisenhaur, P.Eng.; James B. Henley; Dr. Daniel MacInnes; Malcolm Shookner; and Louis Tousignant as directors.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Thank you, those are the ABCs. We will just call in our guests. We have our guests with us today from the Department of Education. We're giving them a moment to set up - don't worry too much, Mr. Cochrane, we'll give you a second - but I just wanted to continue on with the meeting. You have three people with you, right? The only thing is to make sure people sit at a microphone if they're answering any questions. I know you've been here before so you know the drill. If you would introduce yourselves and the people with you, that would be great, Mr. Cochrane.

MR. DENNIS COCHRANE: Sure, I'm Dennis Cochrane, Deputy Minister of Education; with me is Kevin Chapman, Manager, Student Assistance, Department of Education; and Bill Turpin is from our Communications Division.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Do you have a presentation this morning? We allow about 10 minutes for a presentation or any comments.

MR. COCHRANE: I just have a few opening comments to kind of set the stage for what we do. Basically, we're pleased to have an opportunity to be here this morning. We did go through Hansard from the last meeting and found some information that perhaps it would be good to respond to in response to your questions.

The government-funded student financial assistance, between the federal and provincial governments, seeks to ensure that no qualified student is denied access to post-secondary education as a result of financial constraints. Obviously, we know that everyone

doesn't get all the money that they may want and certainly, neither government provides all the money that a student may need because there are contributions expected by the individuals and by the families.

The Nova Scotia Student Assistance Office administers a number of programs. First of all, we deliver the Canada and Nova Scotia Student Loan Programs; we administer the Nova Scotia Debt Reduction Program; also, on behalf of Millennium we administer the Canadian Millennium Scholarship; we also deliver on behalf of the Government of Canada, the Canada Studies Grant, Interest Relief; and other initiatives that are put forward by either level of government with regard to student financial assistance.

The most significant one that people talk the most about is the Canada and Nova Scotia Student Loan Programs and the weekly load limits have been $165 from the Government of Canada and $150 from the Province of Nova Scotia. The limit is now changed with regard to the federal government, it is going to $210. So previously, where a student was eligible for $315 a week, it's now up to $360 and there were a number of adjustments made by the governments in addition to that.

The average Canada student loan given to a student in Nova Scotia is $5,327 a year and the average Nova Scotian student loan is $4,189. We pay approximately 40 cents on every dollar of loan that's issued, 60 per cent federal, 40 per cent provincial. In addition, we have an Interest Relief Program in the province, we cover all the interest for the first six months. As a student graduates from university then their loan is consolidated after six months. Depending upon their earned income, we will cover for up to 30 months, the interest on that debt. Federally, they will provide a longer period but for the first six months they cover the interest but it's consolidated into the capital loan after that, so you get the money but they add it onto your debt load, as opposed to what Nova Scotia does.

We also offer through Nova Scotia the Debt Reduction Program, for students who study in Canada and who graduate from the program from which they received their loan and this began in the province in the year 2003. If you received your maximum Canada student loan or Nova Scotia student loan and Millennium, between Millennium and the Debt Reduction Program it could cover up to 60 per cent of your total loan limit. If you don't receive Millennium it could cover up to 40 per cent as we go through.

Our total from Millennium has dropped. With the new census and the adjustment in the population, we've dropped about $300,000. We contend that Millennium should be awarded on the number of students, not on the population which, obviously, would be beneficial to the students in Nova Scotia. However, they have not accepted that theory and as a result of the population shift, the money went west. We're not particularly happy about that but nonetheless, that program exists until 2009. Where we received about $8.9 million before, we now receive $8.6 million that we administer on their behalf.

In addition to that, the Canada Studies Grant Program provides grants, not loans, to a number of targeted populations: high-needs students with dependents; high-needs students who are disabled; female doctoral students; students with permanent disabilities; and high-needs part-time students. They're assessed at the time the loan is calculated and they're grants as opposed to loans, and the total in Nova Scotia given out in that category is about $4.3 million.

We've made some changes recently which we think will relieve a bit of the pressure. The memorandum of understanding with regard to universities provides a significant increase in the contribution from the Province of Nova Scotia. We also negotiated at that time with the universities, a cap on their tuition, except for three programs.

We do have the Debt Reduction Program, and we are now into the second year of the application of that. We had about 1,800 applications under that program. Obviously, as students go further into the program, more students will become eligible. There is discussion about a designation framework which has had some discussion around the CMEC table and, I think, was also discussed in a number of forums throughout the area. So a number of things are happening and a number of things are going on.

Do we have all the money we want to either give or lend to students? The answer is, no. We don't get it from the province, we don't get it from the federal government. Obviously, we would like to have more, we would like to process it. However, there are constraints by both governments. We try to process as efficiently as we possibly can. Our turnaround period is about four weeks. If people apply on the Internet, the turnaround period is much quicker. What percentage now are . . .

MR. KEVIN CHAPMAN: About 90 per cent.

MR. COCHRANE: About 90 per cent of people are accessing the Student Loan Program through the Internet which does make it quicker for them to get their award and get their information.

It's a convoluted system. I, for one, have been quite critical of the relationship between the Province of Nova Scotia and provinces in the federal government. We would have students in this province, depending on where they went, that may be dealing with three different service providers as their loan has gone into consolidation.

We have different rules. We try to mirror the federal government rules and we were pretty close. We haven't harmonized the programs completely as a couple of provinces have, but I would say, quite frankly, the program hasn't changed significantly since 1964 when it went from grant to loan.

The client out there, at the end of the day, goes through a very convoluted process. We try to process it on behalf of the federal and provincial governments. We do the best we can but the rules are different when you go into consolidation, when you go into collection. They are different with regard to how you get interest relief. Really, there should be a serious look across the country by the federal and provincial governments at trying to restructure the Canada Student Loans Program and the provincial Student Loan Program.

My opinion does not surprise them but I think we have to focus on the client. The client is the university student or a post-secondary student, going to the community college, university or the private career colleges, and it is a bit of a quagmire to work their way through it.

As I say, the only good news, I guess, is that there is one office that processes the applications. That's here in Nova Scotia. But, nonetheless, I think it's time for governments to take a step back and take a look at how we have created these programs, the changes that have been made recently and over the years, and what could we do to, perhaps, make this a little simpler for the applicant, perhaps a little less convoluted, as far as people trying to understand. We have harmonized - we have done more things together but there are still a lot of things that are not as simple and as streamlined as we might like.

However, having said that, we will continue to administer the program as it is. We will continue to try to make improvements and we continue to try to make sure that the institutions that are providing service are giving the best possible service they can and quality programs to the students in the Province of Nova Scotia, and elsewhere, because we do have a significant number of students from outside of our province.

They come with their student loans from their home jurisdiction. They don't borrow from the Nova Scotia program, so if you came from Ontario, you have an Ontario student loan and you have your Canada student loan processed through Ontario. If you stayed here for a period of time, obviously, and became an independent student, there are some rules that change over a period of time. But students arrive with their student loans from other jurisdictions which also causes us to do some things on a national basis, particularly with regard to designation. If we don't do certain things then some of those lenders in other provinces may not agree to lend money for students to attend some of our institutions, so we have to make sure that we are able to work that out amongst us.

[9:30 a.m.]

Anyway, those are some opening comments. We would be pleased to answer any questions that you like. If we don't have the information, particularly of a statistical nature, we can certainly get that and get it back to you as quickly as possible. There is a great deal of information available with regard to numbers of students, amounts of loans, kinds of rebates, et cetera, that are out there.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, thank you very much. We do have a couple of people, already, on our list for questions. I will begin with Danny Graham.

MR. DANIEL GRAHAM: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you for coming, Mr. Cochrane and Mr. Chapman. I would like to start on a bright note; that is, a note of acknowledgement, that the forum that you put on in Truro this past weekend was an important first step with respect to public education. I think that if you continue that process down the road of consulting and listening to people - and I do believe it should continue - that it would be a good idea to continue that exercise. More information, perhaps, should be provided to the participants in advance of that forum. Perhaps a smaller group over a longer period of time would make it a more agile exercise that really gets down to the substance of how you want to make changes in the public education system.

Today we are here to talk, however, about post-secondary education. I am sure you are familiar with the questions that have been raised by various members of this committee, sitting here today. I am here for Russell MacKinnon, of our caucus. You know that I have raised questions about this particular issue on a number of occasions in the past.

I would like to first focus on one critical element of that. I would set the background, first, by stating the obvious, that for undergraduate students, the cost of tuition in Nova Scotia is 38 per cent higher than the national average, that from the period 1990 to the present time, the average student debt has gone from about $8,000 to $25,000 and the gap in participation rates continues between families who can afford it and families who cannot.

Back in the fall of this year, there was the beginning of discussions about capping tuition rates in Nova Scotia amongst students. At that time, during Question Period in the Legislature, I put your minister on notice about the lack of consultation with students and the fact that students were being shut out of the consultation process with respect to developing this plan. I made it clear that, certainly from our perspective, given that students pay almost 50 per cent of the total freight for university costs, that they are an integral player to whatever agreement is ultimately reached. There is government, there is the administration and there are the students.

While there was, I understand, a meeting with students at some point, at no point was there any serious consultation with students, and at the end of the day, this proposal that was eventually advanced was one that was criticized heavily by students for the failure on the part of government and the administrations to include them in the process. The 3.9 per cent figure that was ultimately arrived at as the cap for the next three years happens only to meet the present national average, the current national average for increases in provinces across the country.

My question to you is whether or not you can respond to the criticism that has been squarely levelled at your department for not including students in a meaningful way in the exercise of capping tuition rates?

MR. COCHRANE: First of all, the 50 per cent number is actually 44 per cent of the revenues at university level come from tuition and about 41 per cent come from government.

We had a serious debate in the department as to how we could have meaningful consultation. The other partner, obviously, when they chose, through CONSUP, to send representatives from three universities to the table, I guess we felt that there was some representation in their governing bodies, obviously, from students. They weren't at the table, nor were the other boards of governors members.

We looked at trying to find a way. We did have some discussion - and I agree with you, it wasn't significant consultation, I'm not going to try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. But, nonetheless, we did have some discussion, we did have some consultation.

One of the difficulties that we encountered was, how do you put people at the table who would have to, or hopefully would, come to some kind of conclusion in the discussion and would have the ability or the right to make a decision on behalf of a group? I don't know that I would want to be the student that was invited to the table, that would go home and say, I have agreed to a 3.9 or a 2.5 tuition increase.

I guess, in retrospect, we should have let them make that decision, whether they wanted to be put in that awkward situation, or not. But that was one of the debates, how do you invite someone to the table, particularly when some student groups agree with no increase in tuition; others want to see a freeze of tuition and those kind of things.

Probably, in retrospect, we should have said, look, here are the parameters, here is the situation, do you want to come to the table, and if you want to come with that kind of constraint and knowing that we are going to come to something other than a freeze or other than no increase. That was one of the concerns we had, do you want to put someone in that situation where they go back to the group they represent and ask them to kind of carry that load?

On reflection, we probably should have let them make that decision and whether they want to put themselves in that position, or not. There are students on boards of governors. We did give the information out quickly.

The other thing, it was our first effort at this. This was the first time we ever had a memorandum of understanding amongst the 11 universities in the Province of Nova Scotia, dealing with things like tuition and dealing with their expenditures. It is a learning process. We learned a lot from this one and, hopefully, in the next three-year period we will do it

better. I don't know who's going to be at the table in three years' time but, nonetheless, we have learned a lot from the process. It was a first effort, we will have to make improvements and we will have to involve students in a more meaningful way in that process.

MR. GRAHAM: It will be for students to respond. I take your acceptance of responsibility for what you concede was a failure. It clearly was their choice, about whether or not they would want to participate. It is quite obvious, I think, that if they had participated, the voice they would bring to this question would be a distinct one in all of that. You pointed out the 44 per cent figure and the 41 per cent figure which seems to reflect the fact that students actually pay more for the cost of post-secondary education. Then government pays but they still, despite being put on notice, were not included at the table.

My question relates to whether or not your admission that this was a failure in the first place will cause you to, in any way, revisit this specific process, and if you won't revisit this specific process, whether or not you may be inclined to set some kind of policy for all future significant negotiations of this nature, necessarily including students in a meaningful consultation as you go forward?

MR. COCHRANE: Well, first of all, I wouldn't use the word "failure" but I accept the fact that you would like to do that. I think the process actually, in spite of the fact that we didn't have the consultation that we should have had with students, was extremely successful. For the first time, we got universities to talk about an efficiency factor and trying to do some things.

We also, in the MOU, got a commitment from universities to deal with a whole number of issues that are out there that we would like to talk about. We have, since that time, had some discussion with students and it is our intention, as we put these subcommittees together, to deal with duplication of service, to deal with the economic aspects, to deal with research and development, infrastructure, that we would put students on those subcommittees. Lesson learned from the big process and we will include students in that process as well.

I am convinced that in the future, as we negotiate an MOU, or renew an MOU, that we would involve students and, again, let them have a process by which they want to choose the representation. We are looking at, very quietly, another MOU process, not with regard to universities, but we will be involving students if we do enter into that kind of a process.

MR. GRAHAM: Again, I just want to highlight the distinction between involving students and having some meetings with them, and actually giving them a place around the table. What I am suggesting strongly, and I invite your response to this as I move on to a separate subject - so two responses, if you could - is whether or not you see that consultation process actually including them as players at the table throughout the development of these significant policies. It may be with respect to the community college, I'm not sure what

you're referring to. But it's a fundamentally different thing. Their interests are squarely different than the administration's.

The second item I would like to bridge to is the one of designation, whether or not there is a plan in place with respect to the department targeting programs and, perhaps, universities and programs within those universities, where default on debt is higher, and whether or not there will be a different treatment for those programs and those universities as a result of the default rate being potentially higher?

MR. COCHRANE: Thank you for the opportunity to speak to designation because there is a fair amount of misunderstanding about it. In Nova Scotia, certain institutions, all of our educational institutions, the community college, university and the private career college, register with the department and, therefore, they are eligible for students who attend there to get a student loan, both Canada and Nova Scotia.

One of our issues, as I referred to earlier, is the fact that across the country the CMEC, the Council of Ministers of Education, have talked about a designation framework, so that if we send a student to Alberta to an institution, we have a comfort level that they are going to get a quality product, that there are going to be opportunities for employment, they are going to get financial counselling on the way in, all those kind of things. Similarly, we will make the same commitment here in Nova Scotia.

I am not interested in sending Nova Scotia students with a Canada and Nova Scotia student loan to some diploma mill, in another jurisdiction, where they are not going to get a quality program and are not going to have an opportunity for employment. I don't expect another jurisdiction to want to send someone to Nova Scotia to do that either.

The designation process is really an indicator of discussion that's needed. What happens, we have a series of criteria and one criterion is, what kind of default rate are we encountering? You know, there are all kinds of reasons for default rate but we have, in the Province of Nova Scotia, some institutions where 100 per cent of the students who attend go into a process by which they repay their student loan. So the quality of the program has to have been good, they found employment, they obviously knew their obligations and they are meeting them.

We have some institutions in Nova Scotia where no one who goes there pays back a penny in this particular year of their student loan. Then you have to reflect on what's happening, why is this?

So what the designation process does, it's a flag. It tells us, we should have a discussion with that institution and the discussion should involve several things. What are your standards for entry, what kind of quality of program are you offering, what kind of graduate survey work is done to see if there is an opportunity for these students to find

employment, are you offering programs where there are opportunities for employment in the Province of Nova Scotia, and are you offering a program in such a way that it's going to make you qualified?

One of the issues that we're asking institutions is to talk to students about all the aspects of student loan that are available to them. We have students default on their loans who never apply for interest relief. That is a shame because the interest relief is there to get them through a position so they can meet their obligations. Yet, we have a huge number of people who default that never do apply.

I'm just going to give you an example, if I could, just to show you. We had a particular private career college in trouble. In our private career colleges we have three safeguards. You actually apply, your programs are approved, your instructors are approved and we have people in the industry review your program to make sure it's relevant. Then we have a $75,000 bond that the owner of the private career college is expected to file. In addition to that, there is a 1 per cent charge on tuition that goes into a training fund. So if somebody defaults, we can get from the bond and the training fund the money to make sure the student is going to get the train-out that they are entitled to and that they should have.

In one of these situations we have dealt with, we found that, unfortunately, the rebates that were entitled to be paid to the students weren't paid for a period of three or four years. When we went through the file and determined this, we indicated that that had to be paid. There were 87 students who had borrowed the money from the bank, gone to this institution, possibly dropped out for some reason, and then the institution was to send the money to the bank to rebate the student. In a four-year period, this issue happened and, I said, approximately 87 students.

As we were dealing with the institution and making sure that they were solid, and the protections were there, one of the 87 students called to ask - and my fear and my concern is that 86 students had a debt at the bank that should have been reduced by a rebate, by the operator, and didn't even know that they were entitled to a rebate, whether the rebate had been paid or not, and that's the kind of information the designation is supposed to make sure that the institutions are providing to the students who go there.

[9:45 a.m.]

It's about protection of the students. It's not about protection of the institution. It's about protecting the client who is going there on their parents' money or on the government's money and obviously making some obligation to repay. I am, quite frankly, not having any sense of apology for us trying to do things in this province and across this country to make sure we have quality institutions where students are getting good information and that we are protecting the students as far as the program they are getting and the obligations are going to have to repay that debt. So if we are to be condemned for that, fill your boots, but I don't

have any apology, nor do other provinces and jurisdictions. We have to do something together to make sure that the quality of program is such that our students are going to get the kind of program that they are paying for and, more importantly, that they are entitled to. Anyway, that is one of my hobby horses.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Did you have a final short one, Mr. Graham?

MR. GRAHAM: No, I don't want to take up more time. I just would point out that with respect to designation, it relates also to the depression of the economy in a local area where there are greater challenges and that clearly this issue is one that requires a great deal of thought before the government starts to wade willy-nilly into this discussion. It's something that has broader implications. So those are my thoughts, thank you.

MR. COCHRANE: Just on that, it's very programmed, nothing willy-nilly about it. We do know there are some economic areas of the province where the institutions have to be and where students do have more difficulty with regard to finding employment and so on but there is still a quality program expected from that institution. We still want students to have good information as to the vast array of options that are available to help them with their education costs, repayment and the Debt Reduction Program that we have or interest relief that we or the feds have. So all that kind of information is very positive. All the designation will do, it will start a process by which we will work with that institution to deal with a number of these issues in such a way to protect the client.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Estabrooks.

MR. ESTABROOKS: First of all, Mr. Cochrane, I thank you for your candour. You used the word "quagmire", you used the word "convoluted" and those are concerns that are shared with students who I have referred through to your office and the department. I think that that is the right approach. We don't have it right but you are going to make the attempt to make it better. I want you to know, as long as you don't let Mr. Cochrane get up and walk around in here with a microphone in his hand, we will keep him on the topic but you had to be there to see Jerry Springer in action.

I want to ask a couple of questions, one to you, Dennis, and another one to Mr. Chapman, if I could. I must, in advance, as the chairman knows, apologize for the fact that I am going to leave in a few moments for another commitment. I want to refer, if I could, to a young woman who appeared in front of our committee on November 30^th. You always have to be impressed with student leaders because of their basically brutal honesty but also because of the fact that they are giving a tremendous amount of time and commitment to their own institution but, of course, to other institutions. Danielle Sampson appeared in front of the committee. She is a Nova Scotia College of Art and Design student and the topic, she was responding to a question that I asked about needs-based grants. If I could, Madam

Chairman, I would just like to read this into the record and then ask Mr. Cochrane for his response.

Danielle explains, "A needs-based grant is a grant that is based on the student's financial need. So it is a non-repayable grant, it is up-front, and that's to equalize the opportunity for low-income students and those from higher- and middle-income students. There are many provinces - actually, Nova Scotia is one of the only provinces that has eliminated its needs-based grant program, one that we had. We are seeing more provinces move away from needs-based grants . . . actually, coming from the U.S. that they say that needs-based grants are the only measure that substantially increase the opportunity for low-income students."

I'm wondering if, Mr. Cochrane, you could clarify whether your department has any plans to reinstate this program that unfortunately fell under the axe under a previous administration in the 1990s? Needs-based grants are obviously something that are well received by students.

MR. COCHRANE: The Debt Reduction Program that was reintroduced in 2003, is at the end of the day a needs-based grant, it's not up front, it's after you continue based on the amount of money that you borrowed which was based on your need, then up to $5.1 million is put in our budget to reduce that for students. That could be up to - depending upon Millennium - as high as 60 per cent of the amount of money that a student would have borrowed from the Province of Nova Scotia. So there's one, that was a reintroduction.

With the federal government and the recent changes, there are some new needs-based grants. There is one new one particularly that will pay up to half the cost of tuition, to a total of $3,000, if the family is eligible for the Child Tax Benefit. This is designed to get the children of low-income families into the post-secondary system. These can be stacked and there is obviously a number of them as well, with regard to special situations that I referred to earlier. We try to base the award of the loan on need and we try to make sure the people who get the greatest benefit from the Debt Reduction Program or the other grants, are those who have the greatest need. It's a combination right now and undoubtedly could be perhaps processed a bit better if we had a different structure. So we're back into it as far as the Debt Reduction Program but it's at the end of the day.

The Millennium, itself, is really needs-based in the sense that depending on how much you are eligible to borrow, how much the government will give you to reduce that total load limit. So there are a combination of things out there now. Between Millennium and our debt reduction, depending on what people could borrow, it could be up to 60 per cent.

MR. ESTABROOKS: I must admit though, just as you're answering the question, the word "quagmire" comes to mind.

Mr. Chapman, first of all I want to compliment you on your quick response to a number of situations that I have brought to your attention, I appreciate that. I have two questions for you and again, I would like to refer to a comment made by Scott Saunders, who was another one of these student leaders that day, who appeared in front of us.

Scott is what we would call a part-time student, although the days - I want to call them the good old days - when I went to university from September to May, I went to work on the railway for four months and came back as a man, those days are no longer there. I want to just relay Scott's situation and it is again, from that same meeting of November 30^th, that Tuesday when he appeared, along with the other student leaders.

"I was part time last semester and the one before that, became full time this semester. What's interesting when it comes to student loans is that, you're absolutely right, when it comes to part-time loans, it is actually more difficult for students to access and difficult on-line to do that. I've had to go through those motions myself. Even speaking about full-time loans, it can be difficult to work with the government . . . I've experienced as well, not only with the waiting lists, sometimes you fall through the cracks, get shuffled to the back." What is your definition, Mr. Chapman, of a part-time student?

MR. CHAPMAN: A part-time student, Mr. Estabrooks, is defined through the Canada Student Loan Program as a student who takes a course load of less than 60 per cent. A person who does not have a permanent disability and takes a course load of less than 60 per cent is defined through the Canada Student Loan Program as a part-time student. Disabled students are students with permanent disabilities and can take less than 60 per cent and still be considered full time. A student who takes less than a 60 per cent course load, a 40 per cent course load, for example, at university, is defined as a part-time student.

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may, Madam Chairman, my time is going quickly . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: That's fine, you can take your time.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you. The idea being, of course, that now students go to school September to Christmas and then they take the next semester off. In this case, Mr. Saunders is not taking off, he's working full time so he can bump into the next semester. I can't imagine going to university in the Summertime but that's just my bias. Is there consideration for the fact that we no longer have the September to mid-April type programs? You are aware of the fact that many students are in this bind, they go three or four months

and then they take three or four months off and so on. Those people are not falling through the cracks, you're telling me?

MR. CHAPMAN: I wouldn't suggest, Mr. Estabrooks, that no students fall through the cracks, obviously, I'm sure anybody could find situations of students who fall through the cracks. Obviously, we would like to treat every student as appropriately and expeditiously

as possible. To the deputy's point, it is a complex and convoluted system. Part-time students are only eligible for a specific loan process through the Canada Student Loan Program. There are different rules for part-time students in that you have to apply basically in the jurisdiction for which you are going to school, and that can be problematic, so there are a myriad of different rules for part-time students that do complicate the issue.

I would suggest we try, certainly, not to prioritize full-time or part-time loans. We try to have a queue going and whenever you apply we try to process that loan as expeditiously and appropriately as possible.

MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may, Madam Chairman, I have one more. Mr. Chapman, again, I have great difficulty in determining what an independent student is. Again, in my day - not that that was yesterday - I'm aware of the fact of a student who had to prove to your office - not to you, personally - that she was an independent student by getting the divorce settlement that her father was not in any way connected to the family. There are older and older students going to university because they've gone to work and are coming back and all those sorts of things. You get the young man who, for one reason or another, takes a couple of years off and goes to Australia, works, comes back, is 21 years of age, wants the status of being independent. Is there a special designation for that term "independent student"?

MR. CHAPMAN: An independent student, again, is defined through the Canada Student Financial Assistance Act as a student who has been out of high school for four years or has been out of high school and in the workforce for two consecutive years. The Canada Student Financial Assistance Act deals with the student directly out of high school as a dependent student for the first four years.

One of what I consider to be critical components of our program is the appeal process. So while there are what we refer to as guidelines or rules in terms of defining residency, in terms of defining dependency, independence and so on, students can apply under extenuating circumstances to a lower board or a higher appeal board, which can - if you will - override the program criteria and that certainly has happened in the past. It is not anything that we take lightly because, as the deputy mentioned, student assistance is meant to supplement a family or an individual's contribution, so we're very cautious about that.

We also get into situations around parents who have children, who would be defined as "dependant" under the Act but who are looking for independent status, where the parents do not want to be treated an independent but the child wants to be treated as independent. Those are very delicate situations and we try to deal with those, again, as expeditiously, but also as compassionately as we can, recognizing the framework that we deal with. Certainly, four years out of high school or two years and in the workforce for two consecutive years, you get independent status.

MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey

MS. MASSEY: Thank you for coming in today. I was listening intently as Mr. Graham was asking his questions about your exclusion of students in this whole MOU process. I was trying to keep track of what you were saying but what I thought I heard you say was that you didn't think the process was a failure and you were sort of looking forward to a better process in the future. You had mentioned that you were going to be consulting with the students on a subcommittee level, but that you weren't sure how successful they would have been in coming in on the original process. So I guess I'm not sure why you would think they would be successful or who would come to the table on a subcommittee level. I don't think I heard you specifically say that three years from now you would be going to have them in at the lead discussion. Are you going to be doing that or not, yes or no?

MR. COCHRANE: On the subcommittee there are a number of subcommittees that were referred to in the MOU, things that we want as a society to deal with the universities and discuss. There's a huge role in the economy of Nova Scotia for universities and post-secondary institutions to play and we want to maximize that. What we're trying to do now is look at a number of areas where we're going to work and go forward, and on those subcommittees we will be asking students to be part of that subcommittee.

There is one, for example, dealing with - we have a bit of a hang-up - maybe there should be a central registry, one application and the universities process it and so on and you don't pay 10 fees, all the things that go along with that. It's client-focused and it is convoluted and it is difficult sometimes in the whole process, so we want to involve the universities, the students and the government.

[10:00 a.m.]

For example, on the economic one, it will really be led by the Office of Economic Development, so they'll be involved, we will be involved, we've asked for student representation to be included and the universities, obviously, will be involved as well. So as we put these subcommittees together, we will be looking for student representation. It would be our intention, in the next MOU process, to involve students, not just from the information point of view but from the participatory point of view.

MS. MASSEY: Thanks. In Paragraph 4 of the MOU it states, in part, that the province wishes to ". . . ensure that all qualified students are able to access a university education, if they so desire." So having put such a statement in the MOU, you obviously do have an idea of what that means. Can you tell me how you will be measuring the accessibility of a university education for those qualified students and what are you using to define qualified?

MR. COCHRANE: We are going to be doing some follow-up with regard to accessibility, under-represented groups and whether or not they are able to get into the university structure and post-secondary structure as they should. When we talk about qualified, we want to make sure that the people who are accepted in a program have the necessary background and education level that would contribute to their success. There is not much success in enabling someone to get into a program if they are not going to have much chance of being successful. Is there upgrading needed or are there prerequisites that they don't have that they need that would give them a better chance to be successful?

Those are the kinds of things that we have to spend some time on with the universities and the students and so on to make sure that under-represented groups are able to access it, that financial limitations don't keep people away, that there are a series of grants and loans that would enable them to access the process and to make sure that the background that they have is one that is going to enable them to have a chance of success.

MS. MASSEY: Thanks. Do you have any recent estimates of how high the average level of student debt has risen in Nova Scotia?

MR. COCHRANE: I think we actually have ours here.

MS. MASSEY: Actually, if you have the last three years, since the Loan Remission Program was cut in 2000.

MR. COCHRANE: When we put together our Debt Reduction Program, we did an assessment of the amount of debt that students owe with regard to the Nova Scotia program and the average debt load at the community college as a student finishes the program is about $10,700. The average load of the private career college is about $13,700 and the average load at that time, which would be the 2002-03 figures, would be about $18,000 for an undergraduate degree at university. The average in Nova Scotia for students entering the workforce as a result of having been in a two-year program or a one-year program or a four-year program would be $16,153. That, obviously, would be higher now. Those figures would actually be three years behind now. So in that average is what we looked at.

MS. MASSEY: I talked to people just recently, in the last week, who have said their son went to university or college here and he has had to move somewhere else to go off to teach English or whatever and I think it is an issue where our students are moving away from Nova Scotia and we are the ones who are making the investment but they have to go elsewhere to pay off these huge debts that they incur. These students have pride and they don't want to carry these large debts around their neck for a long period of time. They want to get it off. Some of these people aren't going to come back. They are going to meet somebody, start a family even. We are losing our people. I would just like to see us offer some programs that could keep our students here with their families and just give them, if

they want to go somewhere else, they are not forced into going somewhere else but I feel that a lot of our students really are forced into leaving the province.

MR. COCHRANE: I think we would all love to see the economy of Nova Scotia in such a state that there are employment opportunities for everyone and I think it is better. I think more of our students are able to find employment in Nova Scotia but we have work to do, as other provinces do, in making sure that we develop our industries and our opportunities for people to work here. I know in the public school system, there are more and more opportunities every year because we are adding new programs and hiring more people, in spite of the enrolment decline and with retirements and making sure that we have people qualified to take their place, I think there are certainly employment opportunities in that sector. What we have to do is make sure that the other sectors also have opportunities and that depends upon a vibrant economy with a tax rate that people can afford, all those things.

MS. MASSEY: It's a more complicated issue than just one issue. The last time that I was at this committee, we had some students come in, and one of the things they did talk about was the issue of food banks and accessing those. It's not easy for a student to stand up here in front of us and talk about really personal things but they did come forward and talk about those kinds of things. It has to be hard. I know they talked about the rise, that they thought there was a rise in the amount of students who were actually going to the food banks, particularly over the last few years. So I was just wondering, does your department track, are you doing any tracking on an ongoing basis, of students having to go to the food bank because they just cannot afford to purchase their own food because they have to buy books, rent, child care?

MR. COCHRANE: No, we don't. We try to provide the level of financial assistance that Nova Scotia and Canada can afford and provide it in such a way that it gives the greatest benefit to those who need it the most. There are cycles in the year. For example, the first of the year is more difficult because you have the text books, you are moving to town, all those things cause more pressure. Unfortunately, there is a cycle. We try to level the loan out and give it in a certain way to offset that but it does depend upon the assessment of their need and how much they are going to get. There will always be cycles, unfortunately.

We would like to have the level of loan and grant that would enable us not to have that situation but I guess it is something at this point that the taxpayers of Canada and Nova Scotia just can't afford to that extent. I guess what we look at is we do the best we can with what we've got, try to distribute it in the fairest way we possibly can to make sure it is going into a sector where there are opportunities for employment and that there are at least accommodations with regard to repaying it.

MS. MASSEY: I don't know if it's that we can't afford it because I could argue that, but it is whether or not it is going to be one of our big priorities, or this government's priority. So I think that would be more of the question.

MR. COCHRANE: We lend out, by the way, about $138 million a year from the department on behalf of the Government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia, with an administrative amount of less than 1 per cent. So I'm proud of that and we try to do the best we can with the amount of money we have. If we had more, we could do more. If we had no default rate, we could give or lend more as well but that is reality, unfortunately.

MS. MASSEY: So your department asks for more money on a regular basis, do you?

MR. COCHRANE: We're not shy.

MS. MASSEY: That's good to hear.

MR. COCHRANE: Every government has to balance how much comes in with what goes out. We try to ask for what we think we need to hopefully meet the needs and then, hopefully, spend it wisely.

MS. MASSEY: I think I have a couple of minutes left. I was just interested, I couldn't make it to the forum you had recently but I did run into one of my friends that worked with me when I was on the home and school at Bel Ayr Elementary. She was going to the forum because she was on the School Advisory Committee.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MS. MASSEY: I was just wondering, did you have a good turn-out of SAC reps, or home and school reps, also?

MR. COCHRANE: Actually, it was quite phenomenal. It was our first effort. We had about 507 registered, another 50 showed up that had been invited and hadn't registered and there were probably 40 of the ones that registered that weren't there, so we had around 525. It was quite amazing on a Friday night to see about 400 people and 500-some on Saturday. Even at 4:30 p.m., on Saturday, as we were wrapping it up, we probably still had close to 300. So I think it indicates a strong interest.

One thing we did do to try and encourage parents - and, you know, I'm sure someone is going to ask us, how much did this cost and that's fair. We did subsidize transportation and accommodation for a number of parents because we wanted to have, I mean, school board members come with an expense account and they're going to be there, but we did look at the 350 SACs and did invite them and did provide some subsidy, so when we give the cost it will be broken down. You know, you could come and there would be an accommodation for you but we wanted to make sure that we could get people who are out there in the trenches, trying to make these things work. Not blowing our horn but a lot of people did respond, contribute and participate which was complimentary.

MS. MASSEY: I'm glad to hear that because when I was on the home and school at Bel Ayr, we would be looking for volunteers to go to various things that would be put on, but if the home and school association didn't have the funds, then you couldn't go. So, you know, these things do cost money so I am glad to hear that. Consultation, you know, that's what we need in government and there's not really enough of it. I'm glad to hear that you did provide some . . .

MR. COCHRANE: It was our first ever. Of course, one of the questions that came up is, are you going to do this again?

MS. MASSEY: Right.

MR. COCHRANE: It may not always be the same because they did say, when you come back now with a draft of what you're going to do, could we see that before you finalize it? So we are looking at what process we could put in place to cause that to happen.

Maybe we have been criticized at the post-secondary level for the lack of meaningful consultation on behalf of the students but we are learning and we are trying to do it better. We are not in this alone. School boards, government or home and school - we are not going to solve these problems alone and we do want to engage people with regard to what we can do. So I'm hopeful that it was a good effort and we will have to do more.

MS. MASSEY: Well, I will look forward to talking to her and finding out what she thought about it. I will find out, yes.

MR. COCHRANE: I usually get their feedback.

MS. MASSEY: Okay, thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Epstein, it's your turn.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Thank you. Mr. Cochrane, did I hear you say that some provinces don't give student loans if their students are intending to attend university out-of-province?

MR. COCHRANE: I'm sorry. If they attend . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: If they're going to be going to university out of their home province . . .

MR. COCHRANE: Oh, no, we give . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: No, no, not us. You said some other provinces do that. Did I hear you correctly?

MR. COCHRANE: Oh. They give student loans now but one of the debates is, if we don't have a designation process or something at the national level, at least a framework, the concern is that some of these provinces may say, if you're not putting rules and looking at your institutions the same way we are, we're not sure. So this is one of the reasons why the national effort designation.

MR. EPSTEIN: I see. You're not describing an existing situation, you were talking about . . .

MR. COCHRANE: Well, we were discussing a concern.

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, that's fine, all right.

The second is, I'm wondering about cost recovery programs. They are referred to in the MOU. I am wondering if you have a list of existing cost recovery programs by institution, and if you could supply the committee with this? Not in the text of . . .

MR. COCHRANE: You mean some of the programs by which they charge students a fee that covers the cost of . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, exactly. Sorry, I should have said full cost recovery program. That's what I meant.

MR. COCHRANE: Well, like residence, for example?

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes.

MR. COCHRANE: We would have some of that information, certainly.

MR. EPSTEIN: No, no, I don't think it quite means that. I think that there is a reference in the MOU to full cost recovery programs, let me just see where this is.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: It's at the top of the second page.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, full cost recovery programs are excluded from the tuition cap.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: I don't think this means residence, I think this means . . .

MR. COCHRANE: Well, residence would be one.

MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, yes?

MR. COCHRANE: When universities have their auditing done, they cannot move money from - they cannot raise money, for example, in the residence fee account and move it over to the educational accounts and so on. So there are quite a few strict rules at the auditing level. What we did, rather than us getting into the cost of a meal at Acadia versus the cost of a meal at Dal, we said, look, you can't raise that any more than what the cost would be.

MR. EPSTEIN: I'm concerned about the tuition part. Your footnote, No. 3, refers to executive programs.

MR. COCHRANE: There are three exempted on the tuition side, yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: Three in the whole province or . . .

MR. COCHRANE: Yes, and they are all at Dal.

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, so that is the full list?

MR. COCHRANE: Medicine, dentistry and law.

MR. EPSTEIN: No, no, this is in addition to medicine, dentistry and law.

MR. COCHRANE: Oh, yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: Do you have the MOU in front of you?

MR. COCHRANE: No, I don't, sorry.

MR. EPSTEIN: We're having trouble, I think, communicating here.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: Listed in the exclusions from the tuition fee ceiling are medicine, dentistry, law . . .

MR. COCHRANE: International student.

MR. EPSTEIN: . . . and full cost recovery programs, and foreign student differential fees.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: I was asking about the fourth item on the list, full cost recovery programs.

MR. COCHRANE: I think we can find those.

MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you.

MR. COCHRANE: Those would be programs, for example, that they offer in response to an industry, in response to a program by which they put it on and they generate enough money to cover it.

MR. EPSTEIN: I think I know what they were.

MR. COCHRANE: We can try to find those.

MR. EPSTEIN: I just want the list, if you can send that along at some point.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. The third thing I was wondering about was the debt figures that you gave a few minutes ago, to my colleague, Ms. Massey.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. EPSTEIN: You were talking, for example, about a $16,000 figure and so on. The first thing I wonder is, why is it that these figures are three years old? Is there no mechanism for having more up-to-date data? Where do they come from?

MR. COCHRANE: Those are just the ones that we used at that time when we put together the cost and the elements of the Debt Reduction Program. We would have an update with regard to that but, basically, it comes from a combination and it was based on 2002-03 data. We can do an update.

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, that would be fine. In fact, it would be good if you could send that to us.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: The other is, I'm wondering, when you gave your $16,000 figure, it sounded as if you had rolled into it a number of different programs.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes, on average.

MR. EPSTEIN: You would take students who had finished medicine, finished law, finished engineering, finished a four-year degree, finished a Master's degree, and students - I think there was even some mention of one- and two-year programs?

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: What are the one and two year - are you talking community college or are you talking university?

MR. COCHRANE: Well, most of the private career colleges are one year.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes.

MR. COCHRANE: But tuition is very high.

MR. EPSTEIN: That was my concern. My concern is that, since they are all rolled in together, it doesn't exactly give a full picture. So, for example, someone who is thinking of going to a regular four-year degree as an undergraduate might hold $16,000 as an average debt figure in their head; whereas, it's very unlikely to be that?

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: I'm wondering if you have a breakdown.

MR. COCHRANE: What we did do and the reason we broke it down by institution is the percentage of the debt reduction you get increases as the number of years grows. The intent of that was, the longer you're in the institutions, the more your debt load is. So we back-end loaded it. So, for example, a two-year community college program, they would be eligible for 15 per cent in the first year and 25 per cent in the second. The same as university but then there is a third and fourth year.

One of the nice things about the Debt Reduction Program in Nova Scotia, as opposed to Millennium, is the first year is eligible, which is a positive thing. That way, the community college, if it's a one-year program or two and the private career colleges are also eligible.

MR. EPSTEIN: Well, I think we're familiar with how the system works. What we're concerned about is what kind of debt loads the graduates are carrying around, and if, indeed, you can provide us with a more detailed breakdown, so that it would show something like

community college students, or private institution students, or those with four-year degrees, those with graduate degrees and so on . . .

MR. COCHRANE: We can do an update on this.

MR. EPSTEIN: That would be perfect, okay.

The next thing I wondered was this. The first three things I was asking about were really data requests but now, what I am wondering about is, the provision in the MOU that excludes those professional schools: law, medicine and dentistry. Why were they excluded?

MR. COCHRANE: Much to my chagrin, I can tell you. The universities felt, and, particularly, Dalhousie, because they're all there, they are very concerned about quality of program in a very competitive field. They also felt - and I have the numbers here - with regard to where they rank in the country. They felt at that time . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: Rank in terms of tuition?

MR. COCHRANE: Yes. They felt at that time - and I've got it right here - for example, in the field of medicine Dal has the eighth highest tuition out of 16, so it's middle of the pack. They felt, if they needed to have more money come in, in order to keep competitive with the other medical schools in the country, that they would have the option. They felt, if it was tied at 3.9, they wouldn't have that discretion. Remember, there is a very strong accreditation program associated with medicine.

MR. EPSTEIN: Clearly, what you have said is, it was a proposal that came from the Dal administration?

MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: I have to say, as well, this seems a very peculiar approach to the idea of competitiveness. You're saying that Dalhousie took the position that the higher their tuition, the more competitive they were with other medical schools? How does that make them competitive?

MR. COCHRANE: No, but I think what they want to make sure is, it's a question of quality. I don't think anybody wants to see the Dal Medical School get unaccredited, or no one wants to see the Dal Medical School not be able to provide the kind of quality that we would expect, and everyone has grown to expect, from Dalhousie with regard to medicine. They felt that those three areas, there was huge opportunity for repayment by the graduates, that there was a very competitive field out there, that they had to make sure they could maintain their accreditation and provide a quality program.

They had had some discussion, I understand, amongst the students and the faculties with regard to what limitations we have with regard to what we might be able to do, and the quality questions, depending on the lack of availability of some money to reinvest. It was a discussion, there was some negotiation and Dal felt very strongly about it.

The other universities, obviously, were not focused too much on the three programs at Dal. So we recognized that Dal had a concern and when they did show where those tuitions were in the country, where as everyone goes on about Nova Scotia having the highest tuition in the country, in the med school we are eighth out of 16, law we're 10^th out of 15 and in dentistry we're seven out of 10. So we're not the highest in the country in any of those fields and they did feel that they wanted to make sure they could maintain the quality of the programs in Nova Scotia.

MR. EPSTEIN: Of course, this is a highly contentious point. The difficulty being, if anchored in real expenditures for those programs, if the argument can be made by the university that it costs so much more for these programs and furthermore, the cost is really rising at a much greater rate than other programs, then that's quite a different thing. But unless they have said that, unless they can show that, then there isn't necessarily a huge justification. There's also an implication, a problem for that which is that to the extent that money discourages people from going to programs - that is the cost of it - there's going to be a disproportionate impact on lower SES students going into those professional programs, which is not good.

Furthermore, in something like law, the assumption that the graduates are going to have the earning capacity in order to pay back really high tuition, tends to mask an assumption that they're all going to be working on Bay Street, or down here in the Purdy's Wharf Towers and that is not necessarily the case. It doesn't address legal aid lawyers and it doesn't address people who are doing immigration law and it doesn't address people who are doing a whole variety of other things with their law degrees; there is a real masked issue there. Anyway, I'm glad to hear it wasn't your proposal and I look forward to that debate continuing.

That leads me to my next point - if I can briefly ask - which is, do you have statistics on the SES of students who are in university in Nova Scotia over an extended period of time - socio-economic status is what I'm meaning by SES - or if you don't have direct SES information, something that might be a substitute for it that would be either income or education level of parents? I'm wondering if there are changes over time because the core issue that often gets debated is whether higher tuition fees are discouraging poor students from getting to university and that's a very important issue for all of us.

MR. COCHRANE: We would have some information with regard to the parental contribution, the income levels from which they come, because we get all that information; it's confidential to us but we could summarize.

MR. EPSTEIN: Let's be clear, I'm not asking for individual . . .

MR. COCHRANE: That's right. Our participation at the post-secondary level is up about 12.3 per cent over the last seven or eight years, which is better than the national trend. So, in spite of the fact that our tuition is fairly high, there seems to be a fairly strong participation rate from the Province of Nova Scotia. I don't know that . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: What is the family background on these people?

MR. COCHRANE: We can track as much information as we have, we have all that information as far as debt loads, parental contribution, parental income and we would know the bursaries that the students might get and the opportunities that they get from other agencies and our own, and the African-Nova Scotian student bursary and all those kinds of thing.

MR. EPSTEIN: Well, this is really crucial and I've had this discussion with a number of the university presidents who claim they really don't know. What I think would be very useful is if the department could let us have anything that they've generated or that they can generate that would, if not give an exact answer, at least give some indicators and over as long a period of time as possible would be helpful.

MR. COCHRANE: Only about half of the students in post-secondary education in Nova Scotia have a student loan, so I don't have any statistics on what they would come with. The universities might, I doubt it, but about half of the students in our universities are there with the assistance of student loan which indicates to me that there are a number of people finding a way to cover the full cost without the assistance of either the Canada Student Loan Program or the Nova Scotia Student Loan Program.

MR. EPSTEIN: One of the things that happened, of course, is the kids drop out sometimes for full semesters and work and then go back, which is kind of a pattern.

MR. COCHRANE: With co-op programs and those kind of things, also we're finding other opportunities for students who may not have had opportunities because they do have an opportunity to go out and work and generate some money and go back. So there are a whole number of factors that are changing but basically, we could get statistics on the half in the university/post-secondary level who are there with the assistance of the Canada and Nova Scotia Student Loan Programs.

MR. CHAPMAN: One of the major improvements, Mr. Epstein, that is coming this August is to parental contribution. I think there has been a feeling that the contribution that parents are expected to make towards post-secondary education is very punitive. I think Nova Scotia has been a leading advocate of trying to change the parental contribution formula.

As the deputy announced in his opening remarks, there are improvements to the Canada and Nova Scotia Student Assistance Programs scheduled for implementation in August of this year. One of the major components of that is a change to the parental contribution formula that will increase the threshold at which parents are expected to contribute and decrease the rate at which they're expected to contribute. Now, it's not a panacea by any stretch of the imagination, but it will, for a number of students who currently get assistance, provide a greater level of assistance, and for students who perhaps don't qualify now because of family contributions, they will now qualify.

MR. EPSTEIN: The bottom line, of course, is no qualified student should be discouraged from going because of the financial side. Thank you for your help.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: We have a couple more speakers but just before we go there we have been joined by Keith Colwell, MLA for Preston. Welcome, Keith. The next person on the list is Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: Just before I move to a different line of questioning, what is the current threshold regarding parental contribution?

MR. COCHRANE: Right now, the parental contribution indicates - we have that chart?

MR. CHAPMAN: It's about $30,000 to $33,000; it differs, Mr. Taylor, by jurisdiction across the country. The formula seeks to incorporate a moderate standard of living that differs for each jurisdiction, so the contribution in Nova Scotia may be different than it is in other jurisdictions. Right now, in Nova Scotia, it's about $33,000.

MR. COCHRANE: And other factors come into it in the sense of number of dependants at home, number of students in university, all those kind of things do come into the calculations.

MR. TAYLOR: I wonder can you tell us, what percentage of our young people who start school - I'm talking post-secondary - don't graduate? Do you know that figure?

MR. COCHRANE: Not off the top of my head but we can certainly find that out; I mean, it's readily available across the system.

MR. TAYLOR: A former colleague of mine, John Leefe, used to suggest that it was around 29 per cent which seems quite high but again, I just wonder if we could perhaps have that . . .

MR. COCHRANE: I think it's probably fairly accurate.

MR. TAYLOR: That's what John felt the percentage was and that was probably eight to 10 years ago. I think you would readily agree that not all of our young people are perhaps as academically inclined as others and we frequently hear talk from all parties about the need to provide opportunities for the people who may be academically challenged, or may not be academically challenged. We still need the carpenters, plumbers and truck drivers out there and I'm just wondering, specifically, where the department is with those types of vocations and what . . .

MR. COCHRANE: We had the forum on the weekend and a couple of the MLAs were there. We are actually creating a new high school program called O2, which stands for Options and Opportunity, which is designed to take some students who aren't necessarily comfortable in a strict academic environment. Some guru in the 1990s believed that everybody could learn by sitting in front of a computer terminal. I don't happen to agree with that and quite frankly, the statistics are proving that not to be the case, that there are some students who need that hands-on experience and they flourish in that kind of environment. So we've created a new program by which we're going to try to provide more of those kind of opportunities not only in our schools, but in other facilities - in the community, co-op ed, workplace education - so we can encourage these students to stay in school, to motivate them.

[10:30 a.m.]

The good-news side of that connects to the government's commitment to spend $123 million on expanding the community college system by which we're going to add 2,500 seats. One of the things that was told to me, to our minister and to the government is, we don't want just seats that are competing with post-secondary university. We want to make sure there's somewhere for the students to go who are not necessarily academically inclined but want to get into the trades, want to get into the workforce more quickly, and so on.

Our new program is actually going to have a plan for these students in Grades 10, 11 and 12, a number of opportunities within the system and outside the system through co-op ed, workplace placement and so on, using shops that may be in our buildings or in the community colleges. If they are successful in this program they will have a guaranteed seat at the community college. So the dots are connect.

We have added the capacity at the community college and our goal is to have more students successful in graduating from high school. They will go into the community college, help them prepare for the opportunities that are out there - and Ms. Massey referred to the economy and what we're doing - and then an articulation agreement so they can go on to post-secondary university if they all of a sudden became motivated in that regard.

It's a good feeling because not only are we trying to put them in a program to get them to graduate from high school, but we recognize that no longer is just high school graduation going to do it. The statistics show the opportunities that are open to students who go beyond high school in this day and age. At one time you could go out to the resource industries and you were fine. That's changed.

So what we're trying to do is to make sure that there is a way for these students to finish high school, to motivate them, a place to go at the community college and then out into the workforce with still another opportunity to go on to post-secondary. The other part of that is, we're also going to give recognition to some of the credits they take in high school against their apprenticeship program. So the carpentry - all those kind of things.

It's a major change but it's recognizing the very thing you're outlining. I think it's positive, it's been well-received by the education system. In fact, it's been developed by teachers in the education system.

MR. TAYLOR: That's very encouraging because a goodly number of people are very good with their hands and may not be so well off academically. As well, I'm a bit curious as to whether or not there are any - I suppose you could call them truck-driving schools, that are accredited, or at least recognized and qualify for some student loans through the Department of Education?

MR. COCHRANE: There are. In the private career college sector, there is at least one, if not two. I think the threshold is 12 weeks of instruction that would qualify them for a Canada student loan or Nova Scotia student loan. I haven't looked at the default rates but my impression is that there are a fair number of opportunities out there for people in that industry. There are some barriers. One thing I have found - I deal with the trucking council and the industry, a fair amount, and they have done some interesting things with regard (Interruption) Oh, I must have said something controversial. Whoops! (Laughter)

What happens, there are opportunities but some of the other barriers, which are interesting, you know, the long haul - and now you're seeing truckers going partway and they are switching on the road with another one. It's an industry that seems to be keeping pace and our institutions are providing the kind of training and, certainly, students going to the private career colleges in Nova Scotia are eligible for a student loan if the program is 12 weeks in duration.

MR. TAYLOR: As well, I think it was just last week, perhaps, we were asking the Nova Scotia Power witnesses at the Economic Development Committee about linemen. Some of the information we have received - and it's been in the media - is that a number of Nova Scotians, and perhaps other Canadians, are apprenticing in that vocation but, in fact, they are just not getting the jobs. We have received information through some internal

postings; in fact, as recently as just last year, 18 positions were advertised and none of them were filled. Or, at least, that's the information we have.

I'm just wondering, what about tracking and following those sorts of allegations or claims regarding the different apprenticeships? Do we have too many linemen, for example, or do we have too many plumbers?

MR. COCHRANE: We have a division called Skills and Learning that we would be pleased to come and make a presentation and it deals with what we call labour-market information. One of the keys to success in Nova Scotia is going to be able to determine where the opportunities are. Very often we will deal with the industry that may come to us and say look, we need 30 people, what can you do to assist us in this kind of training? Private career colleges often pick that up but community college picks it up very quickly and it's called contract training. If Nova Scotia Power went to the community college and said we need a training opportunity for linemen, they would put a program on, say here's the tuition and charge them back either to the company or to the actual participants.

MR. TAYLOR: There is a program now.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes, and we do all kinds of those and obviously you are trying to make sure you're training for opportunities that exist and, of course, with the linemen, it's not just Nova Scotia Power, it's EastLink, it's the cable companies and everything - and Aliant, I better not leave them out. So we try to track what the needs are and we try to get real statistics as to whether it is a real need and we certainly co-operate either through the community college or through our department in trying to provide these opportunities.

MR. TAYLOR: I just had another question, Madam Chairman. Can you provide the committee with some hard, fast numbers relative to graduates from that particular . . .

MR. COCHRANE: At the community college?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, regarding linemen.

MR. COCHRANE: Yes, we can.

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you. I will yield the floor, Madam Chairman.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. The next on the list is Mr. Glavine.

MR. GLAVINE: Madam Chairman, we do have in the wings over there, Danielle Sampson, who made some presentations. I want to welcome her today and I know she is very interested to know if there will be any cracks in the MOU over the next three years, and opportunities for university students to have, perhaps, some kind of partnership like the

larger Nova Scotia education community saw on the past weekend, which I commend you for.

I don't think the students' wide, collective voice was heard very well during that period and I think they are hoping that there may be some kind of stronger, more significant forum for them to engage in in the coming years and I'm wondering, Mr. Cochrane, if you have any comment in that regard.

MR. COCHRANE: Well, certainly we recognize the situation that did occur and we assume responsibility for that. Obviously we made some determinations and some decisions and they have been criticized, justifiably. I wouldn't be in the education business if I didn't learn from things that we did and we will attempt to do that better. We are making progress right now. I've had a meeting, because there are two student organizations in Nova Scotia. It's not a one-stop shop, as you know. One represents a huge number and one represents significantly less. They don't necessarily agree philosophically on some issues associated with post-secondary education but regardless of that, they are there and we have to make sure that we find a meaningful role. We are looking for that now with regard to the subcommittees. We are looking for that in the future with regard to the MOU as we come to the point of trying to renew it or perhaps creating another one for another sector.

We are also beginning to take a look at some of the student loan aspects in Nova Scotia and it would be my hope that if we get to that that we would involve students because they are the consumer. As I said earlier, I am concerned about access to the system, how convoluted and difficult it sometimes is for students, so obviously the best people to talk to about that are those who access the system. Certainly those are things that we would like to undertake in the very near future.

MR. GLAVINE: Speaking of access and picking up on a theme that Mr. Epstein introduced, and that is about students from the low socio-economic group in Nova Scotia. Certainly, I didn't bring the report along this morning but I would have to say that in the last six months, the most disturbing piece of information that I have collected has come from the report by the higher education committee with the Council of Maritime Premiers. When they released their report in September, they had been tracking students from 1999 to the year 2002, and during that period they saw a significant increase between about 8 per cent to 10 per cent students from the low socio-economic group that were entering Nova Scotia universities. I find that very disturbing because it is very un-Nova Scotian.

We had a strong Debt Reduction Program and we let it go for about a three- or four-year period. I think it conjured up in many students this phenomenal debt that students - and not all by any means, but many students - were coming out with. For many poor families, that kind of borrowing or even their child having to get a line of credit from a bank, I think this has all created a tremendous play on Nova Scotians and especially those who are in that lower group, so I find that a disturbing trend.

I'm wondering in the Department of Education, is there thinking and debating about how we level the playing field a little bit more? I know, just as one further little comment, as a vice-principal dealing with Grade 12 students, I faced that reality on a number of occasions as I would discuss the future of young Nova Scotians and many certainly capable students felt now that they would have to go out and work first and maybe look at a university education and that certainly delayed them in their potential. I am just wondering if you have anything on that, Mr. Cochrane.

MR. COCHRANE: Well, I guess there are a couple of things. Since the early 1980s, the participation rate in Nova Scotia has doubled in the kids at university level. So something is changing and something is making it more attractive for students to go. The new program that is going to provide up to $3,000 or equal to half the tuition for families who can access in their normal process the child tax benefit, that will help. It's a grant. So those students will be able to apply for that and they will get a $3,000 grant right off the top before any calculation with regard to how much loan they are actually going to get from Nova Scotia or from the Government of Canada. I think that helps.

There are other barriers as well. One of the things that is a statistic that is concerning, and not unusual, is that children of university graduates are much more likely to go to university than children of non-university graduates and we haven't been able to break that trend. I think we have made dents in it and we are getting better but it's interesting. If someone didn't go to university, there is less chance that their child will go and that is a barrier that is not necessarily financial, it's a barrier with regard to either reticence or reluctance or concern. So we have to do more, also, in counselling students.

I remember meeting a focus group of students from one of the high schools and I said, what is your biggest concern leaving high school and they said money. I asked them if we had been in to talk to them about student loans and so on and at that point we hadn't, but all the universities had been in and the community college had been in. In my impression, we should be in first, probably in Grade 11 or Grade 10, talking about that because sometimes students won't go because they think it's going to be a burden on their parents that is insurmountable and yet they don't know all the courses and the programs and the provisions and the interest relief and debt reduction and grants and so on that we offer. So I think we have to make better information available sooner so students can make a decision without feeling that they are going to put their parents in a - and with the reduction in the threshold for parental contribution, that's going to help as well.

I think information will help but there is a barrier out there and if you look at the trend, those without some post-secondary education are usually in a different socio-economic level than others and therefore automatically there are going to be less students from that group because of their parental influence, they are going to feel they can access post-secondary. So all these things really have to be looked at but it is a concern for us as well.

One of the statistics that came out recently was about the income level of people who went to medical school and, if you track it back, there are probably more doctors' kids in medical school than other people but that is because of the experience that they have had, where their parents come from. The same kind of thing in reverse of what I just discussed, that if you didn't go to post-secondary, your children are less likely to go just because of the way that's been valued in their home and in their society. There is a number of things like that that are non-financial barriers that we have to deal with as well. But no question, I think we have such a menu of programs available now that we should provide that information to people as early as we possibly can so that they're not making a decision, or they're avoiding making a decision to go because of their concern about the burden they would place on their parents.

[10:45 a.m.]

MR. GLAVINE: My next question is, in talking about participation rates and I think there's an obvious tie in as well with student debt reduction and the help along the way. Actually, we can break up the past 10 years, I think, very nicely, if we take a look at the Millennium scholarship information data sheet. Certainly, we have been above the national average with students who go to university and college in Nova Scotia. But if we take a look at the past five years, or four full university years, the national average has seen an increase of university students of 20 per cent, but in Nova Scotia, we've only had a 14 per cent increase.

In 1999 for over full four years, we took $10 million of student debt reduction out of the system. I think that has started a trend, as I mentioned a moment ago, of the low socio-economic group entering or the lower numbers of students now going compared to the national average. We do have some, of course, who are leaving the province because of the high tuition.

A little trend in my old school again. In 1999, we had two students go to Memorial University, this past year we had 12 go because they can go there, make two round trips back home to Nova Scotia and still save $2,000 to $3,000; very significant, indeed. I'm questioning and wondering about what kind of impact the current Debt Reduction Program is going to make. Because I hear of not $5.1 million per year, but $5.1 million sort of tracking through the life of the student. We have 1,800 applications for student reduction. How much has gone out in almost, now, one full calendar year since it was announced in the budget?

MR. COCHRANE: Do you know the number?

MR. CHAPMAN: Sure. We've probably physically spent about $700,000 but I think the benefit of the program, Mr. Glavine, is that it recognizes the future potential of a student for a debt reduction award and, in fact, sets aside that award each year while the student is

in school. So a student in a four-year program sort of accrues the funds each year. Since we're only in year two, the only money we would have paid out are to students who would have graduated last year with a one-year program or students who were in their fourth year of a university program and graduated. There's little question, I believe, that within the next couple of years we will absolutely see it level off and we will pay $5.1 million and we will keep accruing as students earn debt reduction awards so that when they ultimately do graduate, we don't have to come up with $5.1 million, we've set it aside every year.

MR. COCHRANE: That's how we have to do our accounting. For example, once we create a program there's a liability and we have to book to meet the obligations. Similarly, when we lend money, if the default rate is 18 or 19 per cent, we have to set aside a certain percentage of the loan portfolio to offset what may become a default. A lot of our money is kind of notionally in an account and then we pay it out as we go through.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: If you could, a short one. We have some committee business and we have one more speaker in the second round.

MR. GLAVINE: Thank you very much for that explanation, I appreciate it, Mr. Chapman. It was interesting that at a university forum at Acadia, a couple of students pointed out that we have a very low participation rate, however, in community college. In fact, over the past 10 years in Nova Scotia, we've actually gone down by 0.1 per cent and the national average, of course, is much higher, a 3 to 4 per cent increase.

You talked about Options and Opportunity, the O2 introduction on the weekend but what else is the department looking at doing to try to change that mindset? I juxtaposition it with studies that have been done showing the deficits that some Nova Scotia companies and industries are now finding in the skills or lacking in the skills, when they join the workforce.

I do hear from construction companies that there doesn't seem to be enough tradespeople coming out and I had that from Mid-Valley Construction just last week. We're losing 100 places at the Annapolis Campus, replaced only by 30 with the hope, of course, of courses increasing their enrolment but at the same time, a local construction company doesn't have enough top-notch carpenters.

MR. COCHRANE: We do a fair amount of work with the sector councils, there are 21 or 23 sector councils in the Province of Nova Scotia, and we do a fair amount of work with them. We're trying to get good labour-market information because sometimes anecdotal comments are a little misleading. There are barriers to some industries that are probably as much a deterrent to people. The seasonal work aspect of, perhaps, construction, causes some people to say, I may not go there or I may not want to, I may not be able to.

I think the big thrust that is going to make a significant difference is - our high school program is one, but - the expansion of the community college system with 2,500 seats, it's 7,500 now and it's going to go to 10,000 seats. You are correct, we have a disproportionate number of people in Nova Scotia, in the post-secondary level at university, compared to community college. We're about 83/17, 83 per cent of our post-secondary people are in university and about 17 per cent are in the community. Nationally, it's about 65/35 and we said, why is this?

There is also a study that shows the location of a university and the proximity of a student to the university, what it does. Of course, we have 11 universities in the Province of Nova Scotia which means that one is closer to most Nova Scotians than most jurisdictions, that's one issue. The other one is our community college is growing.

We took over a vocational system that carried with it in the minds of many people a stigma. Quite frankly, they tell me African Nova Scotians are less excited about it because that used to be where they felt they were relegated to, which is unfortunate. However, we're modernizing it; $123 million is going to upgrade all of our campuses in the province. The new facility over here is going to be a step forward, so I think that's a major step forward, plus the fact that we're trying to find a program in high school to keep our students there but to directly access them to it. There will be more seats that will be available to the trades and opportunities, so I think we're on the right track.

What we have to do now is continue to work with industry to make sure that we're ahead of the curve, that before you need the people we have them trained. Certainly, I think we're making a great deal of progress in that regard but I do hear the anecdotal comments. I remember one in the retail industry that said, we can't get people. Well, one of the reasons they can't get people is because the people who used to go to work for $6 in the retail industry are now working in the call centres for $9. There is a question of barriers, financial, all kinds of other things, people don't want to do split shifts. People aren't going to work for $6 an hour when there's a job for $10.

We have to look at the industries but we also have to make sure they can maintain their competitive edge, because you can't afford to do some of those things. I see the chairman giving the sign and I read Bill Estabrooks' comments in the last meeting that Mr. Cochrane could come and talk for two hours and I'm guilty. But I think all of those things have to be tracked and we have to look at what are the barriers, both financial and as far as the career is concerned, from people doing certain things in our province.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: We have one last question coming from Mr. Colwell and then we do have some committee business so I would ask that the answers be short, too. Thanks.

MR. KEITH COLWELL: I'm going to continue on with the community college aspect of it. I'm a former employer that hired machinists. In the Province of Nova Scotia there is a shortage of machinists, in this country there is a shortage of machinists and in North America there is a shortage of machinists. Eventually, if anyone came into my office and said, I'm a machinist, I'd hire them on the spot whether I needed them or not because you wouldn't get someone else to replace him.

The program has been watered down so bad that it's really not useful anymore in the community college, it was shortened from three years, to two years, to one year. It takes eight years to train a machinist from the day they start until they actually can be productive and it's a long, hard, slow process, there's a tremendous amount to learn. I'm using that as one example. I'm really pleased to hear about the high school to the community college and then to post-secondary education, I think that's a very positive step forward.

One quick question - and I could talk to you about this for hours - are they going to reintroduce some of the shops in the schools that they eliminated and put computer labs in? A lot of those shops were very useful for people to give them a taste of what could be done and the trades and careers they could possibly go into, now, that's gone and that equipment has been sold or given away. Are you going to reinvest in that again?

MR. COCHRANE: One of the problems is that with the demands of the post-secondary level, a lot of students didn't have room in their course load to pick up some of the shop programs that they used to get and enrolments were declining on their own and there's no question, there was a trend.

What we're trying to do through the new program - we do have some shops left, Auburn, for example, has a great shop opportunity, we have it at Ilsley Memorial, there's a whole bunch of them - we're going to try to make sure we can use more of them for the group of students that want them. The community college has also been very good if you're in proximity to a community college, of using their facilities. But our real thrust is going to

put our students out in the workplace where the equipment is state of the art and where people out are using equipment every day in a practical way. If you go to Auburn, talk to the students about some of the opportunities they have had with regard to the workplace. We've got to do more of that.

We recognize, in rural areas, we've got to provide transportation. There are a number of things like that we have to do. We do have to reinvest in some of our existing equipment but one of the problems is, it's changing so fast that it would be extremely difficult financially to keep our equipment to state of the art.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Could I interrupt? I think we have one snapper and we're done.

MR. COLWELL: Just one quick thing. I've gone through that process of bringing people into the business, the manufacturing environment. After one year in vocational school they're slightly useful. After two years you have to completely train them. So if you take someone out of high school and put them in a manufacturing environment, it's not going to work.

MR. COCHRANE: Well, what we've got to do is to make sure that we have an opportunity so that the employer has some assistance in providing the supervision and the guidance, and that our students are able to cope. You know, transferrable skills are what you're looking for and that's what we have to make sure our students have.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think we could have a long discussion about that, perhaps, another time.

MR. COLWELL: Okay, thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: If I could, I'd like to thank our guests for being here today. We have one or two items of committee business. Thank you very much for being with us. I do hate to cut you short. Thanks very much.

There was one other item of business on the agenda. It's the discussion of an additional item on the Workers' Compensation Board. Mr. Colwell.

MR. COLWELL: Yes, I would like to move a motion that we bring the three former members of the Workers' Compensation Board that have resigned within the last six months before the committee and get some inside as to how the board is working. The compensation board is having a great deal of difficulty with the chronic pain issue and other issues and I would like to find out why these members resigned at this very critical time in the board's history. I would like to make that motion.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Discussion on the motion? Yes, Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: I was just wondering if the motion maker could impart the names of the individuals who have resigned. Who would we be bringing in? I think it's only fair we should know at the committee level.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I don't have the . . .

MR. COLWELL: I don't have all of them either but there are three members that have resigned in the last six months, three voting members of the board.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Most recently.

MR. COLWELL: I can supply them.

MR. TAYLOR: Oh, that's fine. I think Ms. Long and Mr. Dillman, and maybe Mr. White . . .

MR. COLWELL: I believe those are the three names, yes.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on the motion?

MR. TAYLOR: Can I just ask, through the Chair, do you know, do they have a quorum at the present time?

MR. COLWELL: I'm not sure if they have a quorum or not. I wrote a letter to the minister and asked that very specific question. I haven't got an answer yet.

MR. TAYLOR: Did you name a date or did you say, bring them in ASAP?

MR. COLWELL: As soon as possible.

MR. TAYLOR: Yes.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: If I could, on our meeting on March 29^th, there are no guests at that meeting. Based on our agenda, on April 26^th, we do have the Special Education coming in. So it would be possible, if there's agreement, to do it then. Any further discussion? There is a motion on the table.

Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

The motion then would be to invite them to our March 29^th meeting. That's good. Just as we close, the next meeting is March 29^th here and the next meeting after that will be April 26^th, when we have guests for Special Education.

The meeting is adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 10:59 a.m.]