HANSARD

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STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

Mr. Ronald Chisholm (Chairman)

Mr. Brooke Taylor

Mr. Cecil O'Donnell

Mr. Frank Corbett

Mr. Howard Epstein

Ms. Joan Massey

Mr. Leo Glavine

Ms. Diana Whalen

Mr. Russell MacKinnon

In Attendance:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Mr. Gordon Hebb

Legislative Counsel

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, APRIL 26, 2005

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Ronald Chisholm

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone. We'll bring the meeting of the Human Resources Committee to order. Maybe we'll start with doing the introductions for the record.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, everyone. I guess as you all know, today we did have some witnesses that were going to come in - special education were supposed to meet with us and we've been trying to get that one for quite awhile. What's happening today with the budget being presented, those people were unavailable to be here. We've had to reschedule them for next month and I believe they have confirmed they will be here at our next meeting.

Having said that, we have our ABCs, the appointments to the agencies, boards and commissions. Maybe we can start with Mr. Brooke Taylor.

MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Fisheries and Aquaculture Loan Board, I so move Roy J. Surette as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: To the Department of Community Services, I so move Aubrey Chapman to the Cobequid Housing Authority.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: To the Department of Education, South Shore Library Board, I so move Clara Dugas and Debra MacLean.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: To the Western Counties Library Board, I so move Gary Archibald as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, still with the Department of Education, the Provincial Apprenticeship Board, I so move Graham Baxter and Gordon Giffin, Jr. as members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Environment and Labour, Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council, I so move Joel Marsman, Kevin Beaton, David Davis, Sheldon Andrews, Betty Jean Sutherland, Dave Hindle and Maureen Pickup.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Health, Board of Dispensing Opticians, I so move Thomas Burlock, Gregory Gillam, Marion Landers and Lorne Ostrov.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, Board of Registration of Embalmers and Funeral Directors, I so move Dennis Haverstock.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. O'DONNELL: To the Real Estate Commission, I so move Hobartson Augustus James Wedderburn.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, Peggys Cove Commission, I so move Murray Garrison as chairman and David G. Parkes as a member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

Okay, some committee business. Some of the committee business that we had, we did send a letter to Paul LaFleche as requested by the committee the last time regarding the secretarial position that they have at the Halifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission. We do have a letter - I think everybody has received a copy of that - so they've responded. I think that's the only correspondence that we have.

Our next meeting dates as we said before, the special education people will be in at our next meeting and we do have an agenda that we'll just move back a month. I think the NSGEU are in. What we have scheduled for June is NSGEU and then the Workers' Compensation Board the month following that.

Ms. Whalen.

MS. DIANA WHALEN: Actually I wanted to reference the Workers' Compensation Board because last month we had the members in who had resigned from the board and it was agreed at that time we would call the government side, as well as the senior management of the Workers' Compensation Board so that they could answer some of those questions. I think it's a little bit more timely than that to put it off - a month after might be the Fall if we don't meet in the Summer months. So I wondered if after the House is no longer sitting, maybe we could have an extra meeting in June in order to hear them before the Summer break?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it probably would have to be an extra meeting if we do that because we've been putting off the special education people because of different things, as well as the NSGEU and the student debt.

MS. WHALEN: I certainly think both those issues are very important and I don't want to delay them either, but I just thought that while it's still current in our minds and it hasn't been that long since we've spoken to those members who had resigned from the board, that we could hear the other side of the story and put two and two together. I think it's important that we do that soon. So if the other members of the committee are agreeable to that, I'd like to make the motion that we do ask the Workers' Compensation Board executive and perhaps the minister responsible - as we decided last time - and I'd like to do that in June.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.

MR. TAYLOR: I'm just curious as to who the witnesses were.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it was intended to be the minister, the deputy minister, as well as the chairman of the board. Mr. Corbett.

MR. FRANK CORBETT: I believe the CEO also. I have really no objection to having them here, maybe the clerk could tell us where the state of play is with the request. Maybe that would give us a better idea about timing, if we have actually written them or have we contacted them about the possibility?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): Not at this point, no.

MR. TAYLOR: If I could just ask the second part to my first question.

MR. CORBETT: Oh, I'm sorry.

MR. TAYLOR: That's fine. I was just wondering, Mr. Chairman, you referenced the minister was included in that list?

MR. CHAIRMAN: He was.

MR. TAYLOR: I'm wondering, perhaps other members have more knowledge than I do regarding this sort of thing, but I don't recall - if the minister wishes to come in, that's his business, but have we ever had a Minister of the Crown - well, I know they haven't on this committee, certainly as long as I've been a member - appear before other standing committees, is that something that we have jurisdiction over, I guess, or is there a protocol relative to that, Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not aware of any ministers coming before any of our committees since I've been around for the last five or six years. Mr. Hebb.

MR. GORDON HEBB: I don't think I can think of any. There's nothing to stop it, but it's not something that's been done. I think there might have been that once somebody had appeared before the Law Amendments Committee, but I don't think it was the committee requesting him. I think he may have asked to appear, I'm not sure.

MR. TAYLOR: No, I guess where I was going with this was, Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree that it would be timely to bring in - if you want to look at it in that context - the other side of the workers' compensation issue, but I think if we're going to do it as a committee, we should do it as expeditiously as we can. If we're going to wait until June, I personally feel that's too long. If there are members who are coming in, I believe we should try to do it and slot it in when we can. Between now and the end of May would be my preference and if the invitations are going out, there's lots of time for the minister or the deputy, whoever is coming, because it's not going to go away. You know, if we deal with it in June, or it could end up being July, or we could postpone the meetings, they're still going to come in my opinion.

In the name of fairness, we've heard the issues surrounding the board members who resigned and it may be more timely to deal with this if it's a CEO, or the deputy, or whoever it is who's coming in, Mr. Chairman, it would be my thought at least.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well, I guess all I'm saying is that we've had our schedule set for a number of months. The NSGEU issue on the status of student debt is very important, we don't want to put them off. As well as special education, that's an issue that we've been trying to . . .

MR. TAYLOR: Am I clear that our next meeting is May 31^st?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. TAYLOR: Well, this being April 26^th, I guess what I'm saying is I think . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, with the House sitting, you know, what do the members want? Mr. Corbett.

MR. CORBETT: Well, I have no problem with bringing in whoever we can get in from WCB. My worry is that right now they're, more than ever - and they usually are always in a state of flux for one reason or another, but more so than ever because what we have now is them really looking at a new governance model and so on.

So I'm a little worried about what answers we're going to get from them if they're in the middle of a new governance model, a new model that will choose different styles of board members, and are we going to get the answers. Well, we have just changed that and we're going to look to see how that works and that's my worry right now. I mean they've got it out to the stakeholders. The stakeholders are looking at it. I'm not saying whether I'm one side or the other of their governance model, but if we call them too early, are we risking the problem of them not being able to answer the questions for us because they have said, well, we have just changed that, we don't know what it is. It's a caution more than anything.

MR. TAYLOR: Look, I just threw it out there. I can live with whatever the decision of the board is.

MR. CORBETT: Yes, that's more by way of information, Mr. Chairman. If we can get them in tomorrow, I'll be here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: There are basically nine weeks left before the end of June. My suggestion is that we have three meetings to accommodate - I think there are really four groups, but if we can accommodate three of the groups that we've been talking about having in, I would certainly like to see one of them be the deputy minister or CEO, and so on, from the WCB. I think having one-half of the story and a lot of still unanswered questions about where things are going there, I think to hear it from these people is an important part of that whole equation. I would like to see special ed and the students, that was an important study that was done involving 800 students, and I think we should have a good look at that and WCB would be the third that I would say let's try to finish up this year.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe that's the way we had it scheduled.

Mr. Epstein.

[9:15 a.m.]

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Just a small point about bringing Cabinet Ministers in front of committees. The precedent in Nova Scotia, I think, is the Public Accounts Committee. The last time I clearly remember this occurring was back in 1998. At that time the Public Accounts Committee was looking into the Ralph Fiske business and indeed we had a sitting Premier come to the committee. So it's not unprecedented, but it tends to arise mostly where there's some extraordinary business that compels the committee to move to that point. I don't think there's anything that constrains us except our own convention and I think the main element of that is probably a recognition that Cabinet Ministers are busy and if we can satisfy ourselves and get the appropriate information from departmental officials, we should probably do that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, that's fair. Ms. Whalen.

MS. WHALEN: If I could, maybe to wrap up, I think it seems that there's agreement to have them come sooner rather than later, and not to wait just for the general course of affairs to get to that date. Again, in terms of who those guests are to the committee, I don't know. I don't remember if we said the minister last time and I don't think that that would add a great deal. I think really we need to hear from perhaps the Deputy Minister of Labour and then the senior people, the Chairman and the CEO of the Workers' Compensation Board. I think that would probably satisfy all of our needs. Again, I don't think this is an unprecedented situation, as Mr. Epstein says.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for the review of the committee or for their information, there was a motion that was put forward by Mr. MacKinnon and it states that we invite the Minister of Environment and Labour and the chairman and the deputy chairman to appear before this committee. That's what the motion was.

MS. WHALEN: Well, maybe we can amend that motion at the same time as we make a motion now, or maybe we don't need a motion but just agree that we're going to schedule it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we can just agree.

MS. WHALEN: If there's an agreement and I'm quite happy whether it's in May or June. I just thought, again, with the House sitting that people might be very busy in May, but I'm perfectly agreeable to whatever date they can come. If it is earlier in May, I'm sure that we can make ourselves available. I don't know if other members of the committee have a real preference. I just didn't want to let it go into the Summer and then to lag through to the Fall and it really loses all its impact.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Early June probably. At the end of June we'll be having the NSGEU. That's scheduled - or we're trying to schedule.

MS. WHALEN: Let's just say early June, if everybody likes that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: They haven't responded to our request yet. We're waiting for a response from NSGEU on June, so if it's the will of the committee we can maybe ask for the Deputy Minister and CEO and the Chairman of the Workers' Compensation Board to come in early June?

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I don't think you should tie yourself to early June. I think when they're available we should meet with them. I understand Mr. Corbett's point of view but I don't think that actually would exceed some of the concerns we have for the issues they raised at the hearing that we held over at the Chamber. I think we're going to have - we don't have to, but there's going to be - some focus on those particular issues and I think right now if we bring in the deputy and the CEO and they don't know what they're doing, then that may (Interruption) That's correct. I think they probably have a handle on what's being at least portrayed or being promoted by the WCB.

I think we have to move on this as quickly as we can. The Legislature is sitting. It's sitting today. We're in the city, Mr. Chairman. That would be my thought, to deal with it - it's not something that's going to preclude us from having a thorough hearing, but I don't know how much time members need to prepare. I could sit down and talk to them tomorrow, but I don't expect that to happen.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we'll just request them to, if we can find a date that's suitable.

MS. WHALEN: I like that. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Between the clerk and myself we'll figure something out. Any further business? If not, we will adjourn.

[The committee adjourned at 9:20 a.m.]