HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MAY 11, 2004
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Ronald Chisholm
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will bring the Human Resources Committee to order. We do have a quorum; we don't have members of the Liberal Party here yet but they will be along shortly, probably. Maybe we could start without them. Today we have the Nova Scotia School Boards Association with us. We have Mary Jess MacDonald, President, welcome; as well we have Mr. Frank Barteaux, Executive Director; as well as Sharon Findlay-MacPhee, Communications Manager. We do have some members of the Liberal caucus coming in now. We will start by going around the table and have everybody introduce themselves for the record, starting with Ms. Maureen MacDonald.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: So we will go to our agenda and we will start with Mary Jess, if you have a presentation.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes I do and we passed around a copy of the presentation but in view of the time, I'm going to just read it, I believe, and then we will get through it quicker.
Mr. Chairman, members of the Human Resources Committee, the Nova Scotia School Boards Association, often referred to as NSSBA, is a non-profit organization dedicated to quality in public education. Our mission is to promote excellence in public education for students by providing services to our member school boards.
1
This year marks the 50th Anniversary that the NSSBA has been serving the school boards of our province. The association represents Nova Scotia's eight school boards, which serve approximately 152,000 students. The NSSBA is funded by its member boards, and it promotes their goals through advocacy, partnerships, board member educational opportunities and centrally coordinated cost-saving programs such as employee pension plan, the employee benefits plan, and bulk purchasing.
The member school boards have a voice in deciding how the association will represent their views to the public, various levels of government, education partners and other groups. So on behalf of all the school boards this morning, I would like to thank the committee members for inviting us to make this presentation and meet with you.
Education funding is a critical issue for school boards, it's also a critical issue for all Nova Scotians, and a province that provides a quality education to its young people has a far better chance of experiencing future economic prosperity. Our association is also strongly aware that the issue of education funding - the adequacy of education funding and how school boards are funded - is also of a high priority to Nova Scotians.
In January 2004, the NSSBA, on behalf of school boards, released an education position paper based on feedback received across the province at a series of community forums. Resoundingly the public and the education partners told us that public education funding was not adequate. I would like to share with you Conclusion No. 1 from the position paper: To ensure quality education, funding must be increased based on programs and services delivery. This model must ensure equity throughout the province. That, at the conclusion, we say because it's directly from the public input. This conclusion strongly relates to the government's decision to undertake this review.
Points we would like to make. The NSSBA certainly is pleased the government has recognized the importance of reviewing the formula that determines how school boards are funded. In doing a review it is important to look at what is currently in place and see what works and what doesn't. In discussions with our boards over the past few months and years, and in conversations with the public, a number of weaknesses or issues have been identified.
I would like to preface these comments by saying that as a provincial body with eight very different and very unique member school boards, it is not always possible to take a firm stand on an issue that represents the views of all of our members. Some of the issues that I will be identifying will be more of a concern to some areas in the province than others; however, we believe that these diverse factors will give you an even greater sense of why the current formula needs reviewing.
I would like to address these factors, and they're in no particular order. The first, of course, is declining enrolment. It has become increasingly clear that with the decrease in births over the past several decades and the resulting decline in school enrolment, the current
formula is severely disadvantaging some of our school boards. There's no doubt that this situation will only get worse, because the prognosis is that it's going to continue to decline.
Special needs students. Our boards have identified, and a recent government committee also identified, that in order to meet the needs of all special needs students, an increase in funding to cover those programs needs to be a high priority. I also want to note that when we refer to special needs students, we are referring to all special needs students, which also includes gifted students, who we are in danger of losing from our public schools in even greater numbers, as parents enrol them in private schools. School boards have different numbers of students in these categories and, increasingly, do not have the resources to offer programs to meet the needs of these students.
Another factor is geography. There are unique issues that arise due to the geography of our boards. School closures, busing issues are all interrelated and become cost pressures to school boards. Closely tied to geography, of course, is the issue of rural schools. It is very challenging for rural schools to offer the same educational opportunities that students have access to in larger urban schools. Then, of course, we have the issue of the inner-city schools. The urban areas have unique challenges offering education in the inner-city.
We didn't go into any detail on any of those, because it would take another committee to unravel some of those salaries. School boards are increasingly challenged by negotiated salary increases for both teaching and non-teaching staff. Other cost pressures are school board budgets are stretched to cover escalating energy and fuel costs and increasing technology costs, among others.
Our recommendations. These are just some of the issues that need to be considered when reviewing the way that school boards are currently funded. We don't have a simple answer as to how the formula should look. We do, however, hope that any funding system will address the issues that have just been mentioned and recognize these diverse factors and reflect the following principles:
Equity. We need to ensure that not only do we fix the formula, but that it be the right formula to provide equitable education funding. The formula must ensure that every student in Nova Scotia has equal access to educational opportunities and programs. In some areas, boards may actually need more funding because of their special characteristics, in order to provide the same programs that are offered in other parts of the province.
Transparency. The distribution of the provincial funding, through a formula, must be open, transparent and accountable. It also needs to be readily understood by all partners, including the public.
[9:15 a.m.]
Programs and services. All boards need to have adequate funding to provide the provincial curriculum. That is, course offerings as set out by the Department of Education.
In conclusion, we would again like to commend the province for initiating this review of the funding formula. We are very pleased that Mr. Hogg, a former Deputy Minister of Finance, has been engaged to lead this review process. We hope Mr. Hogg will have the opportunity to consult with a wide cross-section of education partners, especially students and parents. We suggest that Mr. Hogg meet with all school boards and we would be happy to assist him in any way, perhaps by coordinating such a meeting. We would also hope that he will look at how other provinces fund public education.
I don't have with me today a copy of our education position paper, but we will have some sent over to the committee. Again, we would like to thank you very much for the opportunity to speak with you today and would be happy to respond to any questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Ms. MacDonald. Ms. More, would you like to start with some questions?
MS. MARILYN MORE: I just want to state up front, just to be on the record, that I've been an honorary life member of the Nova Scotia School Boards Association for the last 15 years. I don't think that's any conflict of interest, but just to be transparent about it.
In the first round of questioning, I'd just like to ask a few questions about the province, in particular, the Department of Education mixing the old and new formulas in terms of determining the cap on the funding that goes to the school boards. Could any of you give us a general idea of what the impact of this mix has been? I understand the Auditor General has suggested that it's probably been about 75 per cent of the funding based on the previous formula and about 25 per cent based on the current formula. What kind of impact has that had on the school boards generally?
MR. FRANK BARTEAUX: Some people would take a position there is no such formula that exists at this time. Our document and our paper refers to a current formula. It's probably better to define that as a method of distribution which is occurring. So the current method of distribution does use percentages that work from previous methods of distribution and previous ways of distributing previous formulas. You would have had some experience with this yourself. Even the previous formulas, there were things that occurred within those formulas that had to be adjusted and had to be factored in annually to meet differing needs. So, I'm not answering your question specifically because we're not here as finance experts to the formula. There are people who are available to you to do that. I personally do participate with directors of finance and with senior management folks at the Department of Education with respect to the current distribution.
You're right. I think it's in that ballpark, I'm not exactly sure, but I think the current method of distribution attempts to meet the clear identification of what was previously in an older formula.
MS. MORE: Is it fair to say that, generally, the current method of allocating the provincial funding for education is based more on historical precedents than the current realities that the boards are facing?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: I feel that there is a recognition of the pressures that school boards are experiencing at the present time. We feel there is assistance directed at that, but it doesn't address the whole problem and I guess it comes back to the different needs in the different areas of the province, too.
MS. MORE: I'm not sure, am I allowed another question?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, your caucus has until about 9:26 a.m.
MS. MORE: I didn't realize we did that formally.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, each caucus has 10 minutes.
MS. MORE: I'm just wondering, I understand that a couple of the school boards have been struggling financially ever since the forced amalgamation into regional status. Was there any change in the funding formula or the distribution of funding around that time to recognize the additional pressures that would be on school boards because of amalgamation?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Frank, I think you would be better able to answer that.
MR. BARTEAUX: I think annually there's an attempt, along with leadership provided by the Department of Education, to look at what are the current pressures and to best address those within funding that's provided and made available. This organization and the boards have continued to express concern with regard to the adequacy of funding that's available, the actual distribution of the funding. There are pressures from board to board, but it depends on those unique circumstances that occur from board to board. We have a provincial French board that has special needs and from one end of the province to the other there have been statements made from those boards to us that there are special needs that need to be addressed and there are cost pressures out there that have been identified.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: It's a major challenge for a small board like the CSAP to serve the whole province with a low number of students, and there are particular items such as square footage. They have inherited buildings with a lot of square footage and low numbers of students in it. It's just one example of a challenge that might face a board.
MS. MORE: I noticed in your opening statement there was no reference to the issue of governance of school boards. I'm wondering when you did your consultations, did you hear any concern from either community members, parents, or school board members, that they feel in any way threatened about the current governing structure of school boards in the province?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, it was addressed in various forums, but people were wanting their boards to be regional with the same responsibilities and duties that regional boards have had during the time of those pilots and that has been the position that NSSBA has taken also because that's what we heard from the public and that's what we heard from our boards.
MS. MORE: I'm assuming then that there's no question in your mind that the board members should stay fully elected and that staff should be accountable to the elected local or regional school board?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes.
MS. MORE: That is your position. Have any of your member school boards, or has your provincial executive had a chance to discuss the impact of the CEOs or the superintendents possibly being accountable to the department in terms of financial reporting
deadlines.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: It has come up for sure. We, as boards, want to be accountable to the public and we want to be accountable to government and certainly we want our reports in, in a timely fashion and so forth, and we expect our superintendents to do that. But we also feel that the superintendent has to be accountable to the board and be an employee of the board.
MS. MORE: Exactly and I share that view. So I am assuming then that you also believe that there are other procedures that provide the accountability that the province is looking for without going drastic and actually firing a superintendent over the head of the school board if things aren't done exactly the way that they expect them to be done.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: School boards in the province are of the strong opinion that they are in partnership with the department and we wouldn't want to do anything that would interfere with the direction given from the province and the policies and statements and the Act and regulations, we see that as very important to public education in Nova Scotia. Certainly, we wouldn't want to interfere with that in any way, but on the other hand, too, we feel that we should be a full partner as the local representative of the people.
MS. MORE: Another level of government.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Right.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I was just going to go to the Liberal caucus. Mr. Barteaux, did you have a comment?
MR. BARTEAUX: Just one final comment. I think what we've noticed over the past couple of years, back to an upper level discussion with respect to governance, I think there is a strong, strong opinion from Nova Scotians, and we've heard it at a number of our public sessions, they want stability. They want openness, they want transparency in whatever a school board and government do together. That's what we heard. They want consistent approaches to funding around the province, consistent approaches if it's formulae or distribution, whatever it is, that's what we heard. They want consistency so that there is stability for our young people. If one board is governed one way and another board is governed another way, that does have a ripple effect right to the classroom. There needs to be stability across the province and high level governance, whether it's with respect to the duties of a superintendent or whatever, they need to be consistent.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine, the member for Kings West.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: Good morning and it is great to have you in here, it's a good follow-up actually from last week when we had the Halifax Regional School Board present here and certainly the funding formula was a very, very hot item with the Halifax Regional School Board.
However, I guess I would ask first of all, what do you think of the current level of funding? I know you identified that in the Lead & Achieve document and when we talk about constraints on school boards to deliver their programs, deliver quality of education, you've talked about, for example, a growing trend where parents of students who are strong achievers leaving the system to seek a better education, is that, in fact, strongly linked to the current level of funding? So I would like some comments about the current level of funding in education for the province.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Certainly there are a lot of pressures and they're increasing and we don't know where that is going to go. Certainly with the decline in enrolment, which in the present formula is linked somewhat to the funding, there are major challenges that present themselves. I would say a review of the funding is going to be very helpful in determining what would be adequacy for funding. Right now people manage, but we are hearing of cutting staff, and we are hearing of cutting some programs, or restricting the number of programs. There's always with a decline in enrolment a loss of staff or personnel. Last year for every 26 students you lost, you lost a staff member. This year it is for every 25 students you lose a teacher. It has an effect, because you don't lose all the students in one classroom or one school. Maybe this review process will help address some of that, especially when we are going to continue to have declining enrolment.
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. BARTEAUX: I would say, Mr. Glavine, there is a strong opinion from our member boards, and probably from the public too, with respect to the current distribution or the current formula. I think your question is more, what are the kinds of weaknesses with the current distribution. It's back to what I was really referring to. It was in the area of transparency, openness, probably understanding. Understood by elected school board people or elected members to the constituents that they represent, an understanding of how the funding is distributed so that it is very clear and very open. That's not to say that isn't happening at the moment but it is complex.
We hope that with a new experience and a new opportunity to come up with a detailed formula that will spell out exactly what are the needs for our Nova Scotian schools, that then we can address the adequacy issue. We need to have something in place, that's what we are being told by our boards, let's get down to the business of providing a formula that really meets the needs of all the boards and their schools that they work with, and then we are going to tackle the adequacy issue. At the moment our organization and our member boards have been on the other track with the adequacy issue, and that's been a major thrust for us. We have recently been told, look, let's get this in a business way looked after. Let's get a proper formula that meets our needs, and then we're going to be able to clearly identify the adequacy issues.
MR. GLAVINE: I think that is certainly a very strong approach and statement that you have made there. It is my contention that the level of funding has been rationalized or justified way too strongly with declining enrolment. We all know that is a reality right across Nova Scotia with the exception being the Halifax Regional School Board which will lose the least number of students this year. I think we have had a glorious opportunity over the past five years to start to address the question of funding to public education and I think personally, government has come up very short, in talking about it being number two in the budget this year; I think it was a dismal and distant number two. In fact, we are going to see enormous strains on the system come this school year.
Having made that statement, how was the Lead & Achieve document received by the Department of Education in your view? I know that somebody has been appointed to look at the funding formula, but there was a lot more in the document than the funding formula.
I'm just wondering what kind of a response you actually had from the Department of Education?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: We had a very positive response from the department and it was acknowledged with us that the items or the issues and concerns that were identified in the paper were also ones that the department was also aware of, and is pursuing some of them at the present time and would be working with us on any of the items
we came to them for help with. Sharon is in communication, she's been on all the committees. Perhaps you would like to add a comment?
MS. SHARON FINDLAY-MACPHEE: Well, I would totally agree with everything that Mary Jess said. In fact from all of the other partners that we were connected with and that we worked closely with when we were working on Lead & Achieve, all the education partners, the Teachers Union, the home and school and so on, and some of the business community, we received very favourable response from all of those groups.
MR. GLAVINE: Probably time for one more? I know there wasn't a direct reference and so on to the situation with the Southwest Regional School Board divided into the South Shore and Tri-County. I know that wasn't a big issue, but I asked a previous question about the level of support and recommendation from Lead & Achieve, so I'm wondering if you have taken a strong stand or are prepared to take a strong stand about what I see is a very disturbing development with the South Shore and the Tri-County boards and could lead to enormous disharmony as we approach the school year.
When I look at your mission statement and the commitment you've made to boards through 50 years, what position are you taking here in this regard?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: The position of the Nova Scotia School Boards Association and its member boards all along has been that school boards will be elected regional boards with duties and responsibilities as they exist for regional boards at this time. The Nova Scotia School Boards Association hasn't been involved with the negotiations, with the Tri-County and the South Shore boards, they're in continuing negotiations with the Department of Education and their joint committee and we haven't been asked for any assistance at this time. But I've been away for a few days, unless you, Frank, have anything further to say on that?
MR. BARTEAUX: The position we've taken, as an organization on behalf of our member boards has been very clear. We've given instructions. There's rarely an opportunity at a public meeting or with the Minister of Education, where we don't reiterate our position. Our position is, as Mary Jess has articulated, that all school boards be regional school boards in this province, all have the same duties, powers and responsibilities as current regional school boards do. We do recognize that is a pilot situation in that area, and do recognize also that sometimes making change takes a little time. We're prepared to deal with whatever transpires out of those negotiations and we'll do our best to support those boards in that area and all the boards in the province, again, with our mission with that one position. We haven't wavered from that.
MR. GLAVINE: Thank you, very much, I'm glad to hear that well articulated.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We do have a few members who came in a little bit late, maybe they want to introduce themselves. Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I do apologize for being a little late. My name is Russell MacKinnon, MLA for Cape Breton West.
MS. JOAN MASSEY: Joan Massey, MLA for Dartmouth East.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I guess we have everybody. We'll go to the PC caucus, Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: I noticed in your introduction, this year marks the 50th Anniversary of your association, and I congratulate you for that. Do you have any special activities planned to mark this occasion?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Our AGM is going to be at the Ramada in Dartmouth this month, and I'm going to turn that over to Sharon. She's making the big party.
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: That's one of the perks that comes from working in communications. It's May 27th to 29th at the Ramada. Actually, at our president's reception, which happens just prior to the annual banquet, we have sent out an invitation to former Ministers of Education and former Deputy Ministers of Education, and, of course, every year we invite our honorary members and honorary life members. So we're hoping that a lot of people who have had a very significant part in public education will be there. We're going to have video cameras there from one of the schools in the Halifax system. So we hope to have that recorded for posterity.
MR. O'DONNELL: Over the next few years, much of the teacher workforce will be retiring. How do school boards plan to deal with this matter? The other matter that I would like for you to discuss is, at the last two meetings I've heard a lot from our friend across the table about the underfunding in the school boards, and I guess I probably agree to a certain degree. Could you tell us how much, per student, the funding has dropped over the last five years, or has the funding increased?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: It does increase - you asked about the numbers, I don't have anything with me to specifically address that this morning. Certainly, it does increase.
MR. BARTEAUX: The actual dollar amounts have increased, and because the student numbers decline, I guess one could say, well, your per pupil costs have also maybe increased. When the envelope for public education funding is, I'm going to just use the figure, $800 million, and has that increased over the past number of years, I'm sure it has. The fact of the matter is that 80 per cent of the boards' budgets, and more than 80 per cent,
are salary and benefit-driven. Those salaries for teachers are negotiated provincially. The non-teaching staff are negotiated locally, but are all negotiated within certain rules and guidelines.
So there are cost pressures with relation to increases in the budgets that hit the school boards, but they are also, I might add, generally and hopefully picked up, for the most part, by the province. So the dollar increase from the government to public education does and has increased. I don't think there's any question about that.
The big stressor for boards are the other non-salary pressures that increase as well, such as the fuel costs, those kinds of things that can increase with little notice or it can increase during a budget-fixing time, and that has a really significant impact on all of the overall dollars that boards have available to youngsters, to put into the classroom, especially if over 80 per cent is salary-driven.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Then, another part of that question, dealing with the retirements, there are a large number of retirements now and we're expecting, in the next two to three years, it to continue. We're hoping to attract some of our young people back to Nova Scotia and some of them are coming. We have a lot of well-trained young people coming out of university so we're hopeful of that. The job fairs, too, that the department has set up with the partners for hiring early has been a tremendous boost to us. Previous to that, our young people were fleeing before we had a chance to get any of them hired, especially in areas where it's hard to hire French immersion and French programs, music, art and all those specialty areas. So, the early hiring has been a help.
[9:45 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have the NDP caucus next. Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: Sorry I missed your presentation, but I read through it and one of the things I would like to talk about is the per-student funding right now, how it works - or I should say how it doesn't work, because it doesn't work for the children in Nova Scotia. I was on the Halifax Regional School Board long enough to find that out.
Your education paper - when you went out to the public and other stakeholders told you that public education funding was not adequate, so I think our parents know this, our children know it and we're here to advocate - we should be, anyway - for children in Nova Scotia who don't go out and vote, their parents do.
In your paper you're saying that funding must be increased based on programs and service delivery, that the boards have diverse funding needs, diverse factors, within each board in the province. These diverse needs must be addressed. I know you're hoping that Mr. Hogg would look at what other provinces are doing. On that note, when the Halifax Regional
School Board was in last week, they left us with some fantastic information and in there was the Manitoba school boards' funding model. It's just fabulous. I'd like to go over some of the little items that you listed as diverse factors in our province: declining enrolment, special needs students, geography, rural schools, inner-city schools, salaries, other costs including the cost of energy and technology, program and services, and the costing of the curriculum.
When I look at your diverse factors and then I flip back to the Manitoba funding model, I'll just flip through some of the highlights that struck me as being very interesting. They have a baseline support but then they also have categorical support. They have some really unique things in here - this would affect your inner-city schools: students at risk support; socio-economic indicators, and these are updated; they have a sparsity support that looks at the geography of an area and the higher costs associated with sparsely populated rural and northern school divisions. That would address our declining enrolment and those particular needs. They have an information technology which is costed per student, library services, technology - they have different levels of needs within the library services department.
It goes on and on. They have categorical support for transportation which addresses urban, rural, special class/physically handicapped students. I have not spent enough time looking at this document, but they address special needs, Level II, Level III. They have different levels of special needs - senior years technology education, they have a funding model for that. English as a second language - we don't even fund that. The province doesn't even fund that in Nova Scotia. The school boards just do that on their own. There's no set amount of money set aside for that. Students at risk, they have a section on that.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: It's very complex, the funding of education. Frank, you have that information there. Probably you would like to . . .
MR. BARTEAUX: We have had access to the Manitoba funding formula, it's a government funding formula, or the formulae that they use to fund their schools, and we would hope, and we mention in our report, that Mr. Hogg would look at Manitoba, but also look at other provinces because there may be some other unique arrangements that are within those provinces to address the kinds of issues that we have addressed in our document that are right on with the needs.
Now, I'm not sure, it may come back to the adequacy issue. What we are hoping, first, is let's have a formula that's clear, open and understood and then we may have to address the adequacy issue rather than the other way around. Our suggestion to this committee is that we look at it in a business fashion and that would be the business way of looking at it, we think. We're not sure just how far to go with that because we are not, as an organization, the experts or have the expertise in the funding or financial arrangements. All we can do is articulate basically what our member boards tell us, and that's what they want.
MS. MASSEY: That's right. I think certainly what I'm hearing you say and what I've heard the school board say is that, you know, we've got diverse needs. We need equity, accountability and adequacy; open, transparent and equitable.
MR. BARTEAUX: Yes.
MS. MASSEY: It doesn't mean that every board is going to receive the same amount of funding. I mean, as a teacher in a classroom, you have to look at every child as an individual and assess their needs and try to give them the resources that they need to go forward and have educational opportunities. The province has to look at the boards in the same way. We don't all have the same needs and maybe, you know, it's time to look at a more complicated way of funding. I mean right now it's just your baseline funding, 72 per cent; the formula funding is, I think, around 27 per cent; and the other is 2.7 per cent. So I mean certainly it's well past the time for a more complicated funding model, I believe, for the children of this province. So I will just leave it at that and maybe I will get a chance later for a question. Am I out of time?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, you have until 9:55 a.m.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: As Frank has mentioned, it's better to look at the factors or the needs and see how they might be addressed through a formula and then look at the adequacy rather than look at the adequacy first and then start trying to fit the needs into it because there's more of a bypass there because you may not be adequate yet.
MS. MASSEY: Well, certainly I agree with you, I mean if you just look at the Halifax Regional School Board, the special needs just surrounding that one board, you know, they certainly have more special needs students. They have the older buildings. They have the higher average salary costs and more special needs transportation along with that. When you've got 700-plus ESL students, that's having an impact on it. I think sometimes, you know, we've got the whole issue of supplementary funding which just throws a wrench in there all the time and people will say, well, you know, supplementary funding, it's great, it's there, it's fantastic, but not everybody has access to the same amount of supplementary funding. So we've got that problem in HRM and I think that does create another funding dilemma within the province. So I'm wondering if you have any comments on the supplementary funding issue?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes. We don't really get involved with that because it's just one local board's issue and we haven't certainly been asked to intervene in that.
MS. MASSEY: I guess one of the problems, I think, that it generates is that if the province knows HRM brings in x amount of dollars through supplementary funding, then perhaps they don't fund them because that money is coming in from a different source and then, therefore, they look at that and say, well, we won't provide the same amount of funding.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: I wouldn't be able to . . .
MS. MASSEY: No, fair enough.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon, you're next on the list.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, my first question is with regard to a piece of legislation that is now before the House of Assembly with regard to the community use of schools. At the last meeting we had of this committee, the Halifax Regional School Board indicated that it would cost an additional $200,000 for that board to implement such a policy. Has your organization done a cost analysis of this legislation?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: No, we haven't attended to that issue with the boards at this time.
MR. MACKINNON: Why not?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Our organization operates on the requests or the direction from the boards, and none of the boards have asked us to address that at this particular time.
MR. MACKINNON: Would you give an undertaking to the committee that you would seek input from the individual boards re the cost analysis?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, we would be doing that - that would come to us as a normal event anyway during our board of directors meetings.
MR. MACKINNON: When is the next meeting?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: At the end of this month.
MR. MACKINNON: With all due respect, that's a little bit late, because in all likelihood the House of Assembly will be finished. So my request to you, Ms. MacDonald, is that you seek that information from your individual boards before that time period, perhaps before the end of this week if that's possible.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: We will.
MR. MACKINNON: Will you do that?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Certainly.
MR. MACKINNON: Because I found it a little concerning the fact that the Halifax Regional School Board would indicate that it would cost an additional $200,000, which is equivalent of four school teachers out of the classroom. I would like to know what the impact would be on other individual boards.
Another issue I have is with regard to insurance costs. Have insurance costs increased for your membership over the last year?
MR. BARTEAUX: It is my understanding that it has.
MR. MACKINNON: To what extent?
MR. BARTEAUX: I do not have that information.
MR. MACKINNON: Would you undertake to provide that to members of the committee?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes, we will.
MR. MACKINNON: Has there been any discussion with regard to the province taking over the responsibility for transportation and facilities from individual school boards?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes, absolutely.
MR. MACKINNON: There has been?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Do you mean have the school boards a view on that or an opinion on it?
MR. MACKINNON: Well, I don't doubt that they have a view, but has there been any discussion with the province with regard to the takeover of transportation and facilities and leaving the issue of curriculum with the school boards?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes, it has been ongoing I would say since the last two years, because the position of the Nova Scotia School Boards Association is that all elected school boards would be regional boards and that they would have the same roles, responsibilities and duties as the present regional school boards, which includes responsibility for transportation and facilities.
MR. MACKINNON: But what you're indicating - through you, Mr. Chairman - is a rather interesting observation that the province is interested in taking over transportation and facilities. Am I correct to understand that?
MR. BARTEAUX: We're not aware of that.
MR. MACKINNON: You indicated that you had discussions on that issue with the province.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, to bring forth what the position of the NSSBA was, because we did have pilot boards which would not have responsibility for finance and busing . . .
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. MACKINNON: And transportation, facilities.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: . . . and facilities and maintenance and so forth. We discussed that with the department, and the fact that that was not acceptable to elected school boards because they see it as being a very complex package, to deal with the public education picture.
MR. MACKINNON: How have those pilot projects worked out? I sense that what you're saying is the pilot projects to allow the province to maintain control of transportation facilities were not in the best interests.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, boards felt that it was a very cumbersome way of dealing with the local education management.
MR. MACKINNON: This is a major issue. It doesn't seem to be a very glamorous issue, but it's an issue I've raised in budgets for the last several years, and it's an issue that was indicated by the deputy minister as being a topic of discussion between himself and the CEOs of the individual boards. Were you aware of that?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, there have been ongoing discussions around that particular issue, because of the pilot boards and the joint committees and how that was evolving. But it's my understanding that all boards will be returned to regional boards with the legislation.
MR. BARTEAUX: Regardless, trying to get to the point of your question, aside from any discussions that have been held or any deliberations that have been held between the deputy and CEOs of the boards, aside from all of that, our position, as an organization, as Mary Jess MacDonald has stated, those discussions may have taken place and may continue
to take place, and we will attempt to be part of those discussions and monitor those discussions. The current position of our boards, though, does not coincide or does not agree with that position.
MR. MACKINNON: Okay, that's what I needed.
MR. BARTEAUX: I don't know if that's clear or not.
MR. MACKINNON: That's very clear. At one time, school boards had taxing powers, through the issue of a mandate from the local, for the lack of a better phrase, parents' associations, school trustees - in fact I was a school trustee, I was a secretary of school trustees at one time. If they wanted additional programs and initiatives within the school, they could bring that before the local ratepayers, and through the issue of two-thirds or 75 per cent, I believe it was, I stand to be corrected on that percentage, a majority vote, that would be recommended to the local municipal council, and, in effect, that could be activated to ensure additional programs and services within the school. Since then, that's been done away with, within the last several years. Does your organization have a particular view on this particular issue?
MR. BARTEAUX: I was kind of hoping there wouldn't be anybody in this room as old as I am. (Laughter) Going back, oh my.
MR. MACKINNON: My mother taught school for 45 years, and she's a life member of your organization. I think she's one of seven in the province.
MR. BARTEAUX: It's quite exciting, really. But we go back to the days . . .
MR. MACKINNON: For her, it is. I'm not that old.
MR. BARTEAUX: . . . of area rates. There was school board involvement back in those old days, but the boards of trustees, as you've said, could establish or set area rates and provide additional funding for resources within a school. A board of trustees served normally at a single school, maybe a couple depending on the geographic location.
Our organization has not taken a position that I am aware of, in recent years with regard to taxation and the way in which taxation should be looked at - that could be part of the review that's going to be conducted by Mr. Hogg. I see that as this committee may wish to forward that on, to have a look at - there are other provinces across the country where school boards have taxing powers, and of course that raises a whole area of responsibility, an autonomy within those provinces. That may be something that should be looked at in terms of review. I think that our organization would - we've always been open to any different ways of doing business that might be supportive and helpful to our youngsters down the road and, if there are ways of doing that, we would try to find a way to help with that. We
would be open to that type of discussion, but we don't have a firm position on boards having taxing power. I'm sure that years ago that was an issue at one time for boards with respect to that.
MR. MACKINNON: Just in closing, Mr. Chairman, I was going to suggest - don't let my youthful appearance deceive you. (Laughter)
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: There is a local component presently to the funding, with the monies that are collected through assessment there is a percentage collected by the municipalities for school boards.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Thanks for your submission this morning. How big is the Nova Scotia School Boards Association in terms of membership, and do all the Nova Scotia school boards belong to your association?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes, they do.
MR. TAYLOR: How many members are on your board?
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: On our board, or how many members totally in the province?
MR. TAYLOR: On your board.
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: On the board of directors? There are eight boards of directors and a five-person executive.
MR. TAYLOR: I'm just wondering, the lines for me at least seem a little blurred between the responsibilities of your association and the boards. Is there a mandate, a terms of reference that you could share with the committee? From just going through the submission it's difficult. I understand your goals, and I think they are very admirable, and I appreciate and thank you for the good work you do, but I'm just wondering, Mr. Chairman, if we could be provided - I would appreciate having the mandate of the school board.
Just to follow up a little bit on transportation and conveyance. It seems like the debate over public and private conveyance is ongoing. It doesn't matter what board you're talking to or what employee, whether it's a bus driver, a maintenance worker, or a mechanic in the public system, it always seems like they are walking on tenterhooks. They're afraid continually that their jobs are at risk. I'm wondering, do you have a position per se, as the association on behalf of the boards, or have you ever been asked for a position? Have you offered one, in fact, on that ongoing debate of public versus private?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: No, we haven't a position as an organization because of the debate that goes on, and because boards are choosing to do that business in different ways. In fact, I believe that Annapolis Valley has two, some private and some public for example. We haven't gotten into that debate at all.
MR. TAYLOR: You haven't waded into that.
MR. BARTEAUX: Coming back to your first comment about potentially blurred lines of operation, I should make a comment or two about that, and then into the public versus private services.
Each one of our eight-member boards is a corporate entity unto itself. This organization is also a corporate entity and has been established by an Act of the Legislature. However, our function and our role is a service function. In other words, we don't tell our school board members what to do, they tell us what to do. Where they are corporate entities unto themselves, they have sometimes not a whole lot of varying ways of doing business. But there are, because there are differences around this province that you folks recognize more than anybody else. Meeting those needs is always a challenge for each of those corporate entities.
Public versus private debate may be an issue in the Chignecto-Central, and the area where you are may affect constituents that you serve who are school board employees; it may not have the same impact in the Yarmouth area. Some of those differences exist - school boards with the busing, depending on the area, Halifax has a contracted system. Of course, that means that's separate from the school board to some degree, it's at arm's-length, but it is separate in terms of the day-to-day management of the employees. That's where it gets blurred. In Chignecto-Central area alone, just with school transportation there is public (Interruption) I agree, those folks, the employees, your constituents, feel threatened by whether we're going to have an all-public system, are we going private, is my job going to be threatened, am I going to lose salary from that changeover if there is a changeover? People don't normally like change. You like to have some stability, and I spoke about stability when we first started, how important that was throughout Nova Scotia and, most of all, for our young people. Our employees' needs have to be met, but our young peoples' needs are first and foremost and they need stability in a school system. That has to be a priority.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, you know, half the geography of the riding actually that I reside in is in Halifax County where we have a private company providing the conveyance. Of course, in Colchester it's public. I guess my own opinion is that the public system is every bit as efficient and every bit as effective as the private system. When you actually do the math and the employees within Chignecto-Central Regional School Board have - in fact, they were asked to show administration how efficient they are. They certainly provide a good, safe, reliable transportation. I just want to say on their behalf that if the board has an opportunity to weigh in on that debate, and I realize that probably you have to be requested,
but I just think from my experience - I know of the job losses and the lower wages - some people would say the service that's being provided is inferior. Again, it's difficult for me to make that observation. I do want to point out that I strongly support the public system that's in place and I think it's every bit as - financially, which is always a consideration - competitive as the private.
I just wanted to mention another area of concern. Again, it's probably outside the jurisdiction of the board, and that is the inconsistent storm day policy that Halifax Regional Municipality employs. Out in the rural schools - and we have a number of them - MRHS and all its feeder schools, Duncan MacMillan and its feeder schools, Eastern Shore and all its feeder schools, even in this day and age we have storm days where the buses aren't running, we're being told on the radio and everywhere else the buses aren't running but the schools are open. You folks know well and the board members I think within the HRM understand that, besides being impractical, it's almost ridiculous to keep these schools open when the roads are unsafe for the buses to travel.
Sometimes, we've been told, children and students are expected to get to those schools, if they can, and they will be taught the curriculum and the programming. I would be more, I guess, at ease and comfortable if the decision makers along those lines - I mean that was the board, I guess it was a couple of weeks ago or last week, whatever, and I certainly didn't come away from the meeting raising that concern with any confidence or comfort that they were going to look at that policy, because it really makes things difficult out in the rural areas because, clearly, that diversity in this great Halifax amalgamated municipality, is so diverse that it may work in the city but it sure as heck doesn't work out in the rural areas. Again, I preface my comments by saying it may be outside your mandate.
[10:15 a.m.]
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: We haven't been asked to address that but it certainly is a perennial problem for the rural areas. In our Lead & Achieve, of course, one of the items that parents were concerned about was time on task, and storm days are part of that scenario.
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: I was just going to add that we do have a committee at the organization that provides leadership to the Lead & Achieve initiative, and the whole issue of time on task and lost instructional time and so on will be discussed, and it's going to be looked at on two levels, both at the provincial level and of course the individual boards will be looking at it at their own individual level. Provincially I'm sure, Mr. Taylor, that will be coming up.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Ms. MacPhee.
MR. BARTEAUX: I guess one of the most difficult decisions on a day-to-day basis is the storm call. If a local MLA wants that decision, I'm sure that boards would give it up. (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure we want to go that far. Okay, thank you, Mr. Taylor.
The honourable member for Halifax Needham.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I'm really pleased that we have an opportunity to have some discussion here this morning about education. Early in the Hamm Government's mandate, the government gave itself some additional powers, or seemingly additional powers to take over school boards. At the time that occurred I was our Party's Education Critic and expressed concern that this would have a chilling effect on school boards as advocates for public education in this province.
I notice information from your Web site, it says that the Nova Scotia School Boards Association plays a strong leadership role as an advocate for school boards and public education. I don't mean to be critical, but I think it needs to be said, at least I need to say it so I can look at myself tomorrow morning, that I think the association and the school boards need to be a little more strident with respect to being strong advocates for education in Nova Scotia.
This province has the distinction of having the lowest per-student funding in the country. It has the distinction of having the lowest per-student funding in education in pretty well all of North America, if you look at the American States. While I fully support the objectives of getting a funding formula that will assure equity throughout the province, what good is equity if it's not adequate? If you have inadequate funding, but we distribute it in an equitable way, whoop-de- do, you still have inadequate funding. In my community, North End Halifax, where education is so important for all of the families that I represent, the public in that community want adequate funding. They want boards to be transparent and accountable and they want the provincial government to provide adequacy. If I went into a room with families, parents in my community and started talking about the intricacies in the funding formula, they'd show me the door. They want adequacy, adequacy. They want funding for education to improve, because that's the problem.
I need to know that the school board is saying this to government, not only in private but we need to hear you standing up and saying this, loud, clear, publicly, over and over again, because, frankly, I think you've been given a really bad bill of goods, in terms of the adequacy of education funding. It's not going to change unless you stand up and fight back, fight back for adequate funding as strong advocates, as part of your mandate. I want to start by saying that, and maybe you can tell me if there's a reason why it's not possible to do this in a somewhat more direct way to the government?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Certainly, we're not saying that we're not interested in adequate funding, that is first and foremost our position, not only of the organization but also our Lead & Achieve position paper. The results we got from our forums clearly indicated that. I guess what we are saying here this morning is we would like all the factors addressed, and we believe when the factors are addressed, adequacy will come into the picture. The way we're looking at it, if you start working and saying, well, this is an adequate pot, and then start trying to fit all the factors in, you may miss the boat.
We certainly want all the factors addressed. We just scratched the surface of them here. Many of them have come up around the table since we made our presentation. We have every faith, and that's why we're so pleased that this committee is happening, because it's an opportunity to look at other places in Canada, it's an opportunity to look at what is out there in all the school boards and the regions of our province to see what are the things that need to be funded to get the best services and programs we can afford to have for our children.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I understand, but I think, a lot of these things, we've always known. It's not news to us that there are special needs students and they're not being adequately funded. There are reports on this. What the distribution of those students are across the boards, perhaps, and how you measure that and capture that in a method of distribution is still something that hasn't been worked out. But I think we need to really go back to the fundamental problem, which is the inadequate funding, the inadequate financial commitment, which continues on and has continued, essentially in the six years that I've had the honour to represent the constituency of Halifax Needham. I'm not going to belabour that point.
I have a couple of really quick short snappers from your report. One is, what percentage of students who are gifted leave the public school system and enrol in private schools? Do you have a measurement of that? Can you quantify that in any way?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: No, we have an overall picture of numbers of students at each board, which I don't have with me.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Could you possibly provide us with that information?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes, we can.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: One of the things that you say here is that gifted students, we're in danger of losing from our public schools as parents enrol them in private schools. I'm assuming that those wouldn't be all of the gifted kids, it would be gifted kids whose parents can afford to send them to private school. So gifted kids whose parents can't afford to send them to private school drop out, leave the school system? Do you have any . . .
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: I wouldn't say they are dropping out. I think our teachers and our schools do a very good job of addressing the needs of our students. I guess what we're saying, with decreasing numbers of staff and sometimes it affects the specialty areas, is that there may not be so much supplementary support to the classroom. However, we certainly wouldn't want to give the impression that the needs of those students are not being met at all. Just in relation to special needs students, in general students with significant needs and challenges, it has increased in recent years with the closing of centres and so forth and there is better identification, I believe, of children in general. So across the province in all boards, it is an increasing pressure.
I think the department had the Special Education Implementation Review Committee put in place and that certainly identified what is happening and what injection of funds would be needed there to improve the situation for all students who have different learning needs.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: The last thing that I want to raise with you is that your presentation to us today didn't specifically, as far as I can tell, address the concerns around deferred maintenance across the boards and again this year, as you know, the provincial government certainly in the budget made no real provisions to address this serious problem. If anything, in fact, it's going to get worse as a result of the budget that will be in front of us this evening. So in terms of a funding formula, or in terms of addressing that issue, what is the School Boards Association looking at?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, as a school board member, I can address that. School boards are always concerned that there is adequate funding for maintenance because if there isn't, you know, in the past school boards haven't had sufficient money for maintenance which has been improved. There has been more of an address recently of that, but the perception was that school boards were neglecting maintenance altogether in favour of the classroom. Well, we're certainly concerned about our students, but I think government is also concerned about students because we are hearing we want more money directed to the classroom, so a decline in maintenance. So it is a concern and it would be something - we didn't list all the items there. It certainly is our expectation that that will be looked at, that's one of the pressures.
MR. BARTEAUX: Mr. Chairman, just back to that question, you're correct, the document doesn't speak specifically to that. That is a major issue though. The details on deferred maintenance and other cost pressures, I'm sure, I assume are available through the Department of Education. The details on the number of gifted students and the percentage, again, we don't have the resources to do that data or gather that but, again, you can get that data from the Department of Education, I assume you could. That's where I would go if I'm looking to answer these questions and that's where I would have to go to find it. You probably may have quicker access to that information than I would.
[10:30 p.m.]
Certainly, deferred maintenance or anything - we did identify in our document, other cost pressures. We're on Page 6. We didn't spell that out as a specific item, but those cost pressures are probably ranging 15 per cent to 20 per cent annually. It's an issue that's there, those non-salaried issues, and that kicks in, but there are also issues with respect to maintenance and capital and minor capital activities.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine.
MR. GLAVINE: Mr. Chairman, if I was going to have any critical comment this morning toward the Nova Scotia School Boards Association, I think I will refrain after challenging us to call storm days. (Laughter) I would think I would have to stop right there.
Anyway, that being said, I did want to go on the record to compliment your efforts with the small number of people, resources and so on to pull off the Lead & Achieve initiative. I thought it was a very excellent first start to challenge the government in a number of areas. I felt the Lead & Achieve document was designed, or certainly the challenge that we put before all stakeholders in education was to take a look at the very heart of education, which are the standards or perhaps lack of standards that do exist across the province when we compare with the rest of the nation.
I feel the Grade 6 literacy test, for example, that was so foolhardy. You would measure 11 out of 60 outcomes and give yourself a glowing pat on the back that 88 per cent of our students measure up to literacy requirements at that grade level. I'm very concerned as an educator about the standards in our schools. I would just like for you to make a general comment about where your role is in raising the bar, in improving the standards, because, like funding, we are also being compared to the rest of the nation. We are at the lowest end with the standards that exist in our schools.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, one of the things that school boards are doing is having a business plan, where we look to how we can address or improve the education system within our boards, and then also at our school level with the school advisory councils, which are increasing in number in each board, the school improvement plans that we are working with schools to develop. We think, in the long run, that will help. Many of the initiatives through the Learning for Life we believe, in the long-term, are going to also help us, because it addresses some of the specialty needs that are in special needs.
Also, through the last assessment and the injection we are told we would be getting to address the needs of the students who have not done so well on the literacy tests, we think working with those kinds of initiatives and sharing them among all the partners and so forth, we're hoping this will help. I think, ongoing assessment, looking at our assessments in the
classroom, looking at our assessments in our school areas and in the province, we're hopeful that by us working together and looking at how we might do that better, we'll improve that.
MR. GLAVINE: The other area that I guess I'm not seeing the dollar value for, when I see the needs on the front line of education - and we know that it's going to happen in the classroom, with support obviously, to raise our standards - when I take a look at the school year 2000-01 and in just two years, up to 2002-03, the number of consultants in the systems across the province increased from 34 to 65. That's about a $2.2 million item. The Minister of Education said, when I asked him about this in estimates last week, yes, that is correct, but didn't offer much more. When I take a look at the Halifax Regional School Board, with 100 classes this year with students between 35 and 40, isn't this alarming in your view, or not?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Certainly, you want reasonably sized classes, for sure it's easier to manage. A major factor too is the makeup of the class and the kinds of needs that are in there. As far as consultants, I understand from your figures that it has raised but I believe some of the consultants offer the support to teachers who need to make changes relative to literacy or the teaching of math, especially. So, that would be an area where school boards, through resolutions and so forth, have said if you are going to put a new initiative in, give us the resources to address that. In some of those areas, that would account for that rise in the consultants. Resources have been provided for a new literacy program and Active Young Readers and Reading Recovery - those kinds of things - but also consultants to back that up and school boards would be supporting that, because our teachers need that kind of support in the classroom, if students are going to get the program adequately.
MR. BARTEAUX: If I could ask just for a little bit of clarification on that comment, I think we're talking about external leadership people to the school system - is that what you're talking about? You picked specifically consultants, but within the numbers of persons in the province who provide outside leadership responsibilities beyond the classroom, was that what that figure was referring to? Because that's quite different than the information we would have.
MR. GLAVINE: That's from the statistical yearbook, which I believe is just in the process of being printed. I had a rough draft from the department - and this was from the systems across the province - that it had increased from 34 to 65 in a two-year period. I think the minister, to be honest with you, was alarmed by that figure as well.
MR. BARTEAUX: Yes, I guess what I was getting at is it the global number of persons who are providing leadership to the schools in the province, has that number increased, or is it just that category has and the total province-wide numbers have diminished?
MR. GLAVINE: No, it has increased.
MR. BARTEAUX: In leadership people to the schools?
MR. GLAVINE: In leadership people to the schools.
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: Mr. Glavine, what were the years there?
MR. GLAVINE: It's the 2000-01 school year to 2002-03, so it actually reflects two school years. That's as far as the historical profile went back. Of course, this school year is not included in that data, as we know, from year to year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we have about 20 minutes left, Mr. O'Donnell, do you have anything? Ms. More.
MS. MORE: I just have a couple of quick questions about the relationship between the Nova Scotia School Boards Association and the department. Does your executive have a regular meeting schedule with the minister and his senior officials? Or how often do you meet with the minister?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, it isn't a regular schedule, but the minister comes in at various times to meet with our board of directors and the executive meets two or three times year, usually at our request. One of them would be a meeting to discuss what the resolutions are from our membership. Then there are times when the executive director and myself meet with the minister, and that happens two or three times a year.
MS. MORE: Do you feel listened to when you go to the department and the minister? Do you see any action taken on the concerns that are expressed to the department?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Yes, I would say we're quite successful and certainly they come up as items that are addressed with us with the minister. You don't always get your own way. (Laughter)
MS. MORE: I do sense a change in sort of the mandate of the association since I was involved, and I suspect it has something to do with the fact that we've gone from hundreds of school boards down to, whether there's seven or eight?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Eight.
MS. MORE: So, I'm getting the sense now that you see the association more as a support to those school boards instead of being sort of the leader or voice or the advocate out front leading the charge. Has this just evolved over time, or was it a conscious decision once the number came down to eight that you wouldn't take on any sort of initiative that the school boards hadn't authorized as your members?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: I'm going to let Sharon . . .
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: Okay, I guess just a couple of things. The first thing I wanted to say was in relation to your first question, I guess, Ms. More, about the relationship with the department. I just wanted to give a little bit of historical background, I guess, on it. To put it in context, I've been with the association quite a few years and really it's only been recently, I'd say within the last perhaps four or five years, that any Minister of Education has come to meet with our board of directors, and now that is, what I would say, a regular occurrence, that when the minister is invited to come to the board of directors meetings, he or she, whoever it happens to be at the time, does come. As I say, that's only happened within about the last four or five years. I think that's quite significant.
I guess in terms of the second comment, I personally wouldn't want to see any sort of confusion, I guess, or misunderstanding, about the role of our organization from our meeting here today, because I think our membership would feel, and our school boards, and I know certainly our president and board of directors and staff, that our organization is an advocate on behalf of school boards, that we do speak with a voice. Most of the time it is with a voice on behalf of all the boards. Naturally, there may be times when you have eight boards, that you cannot speak definitively on behalf of the eight, but advocacy and leadership is still very much part of what we do.
There are times when we take the initiative because something has come up and we feel it's important, and we will go out to the boards and seek their input. On the other hand, at board of directors meetings, most usually, the boards will also bring issues to our attention. As Frank said earlier, they are corporate entities unto themselves. We cannot tell them what to do, but certainly in terms of issues and trends and things that are of concern in public education, we have taken a leadership role and we do work on issues of our own initiative. I thought that should be clarified.
MS. MORE: Yes, thank you for clearing up that confusion.
[10:45 a.m.]
MR. BARTEAUX: We also do meet with the Leaders of each of the Parties, we meet with their Education Critics. We invite them to our Board of Directors meetings that we have, we have been very proactive working with all of the three Parties.
MS. MORE: Thank you, and again congratulations on your 50th Anniversary.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We are going to have some time for a few short snappers. I guess, Mr. MacKinnon, you are on next.
MR. MACKINNON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Two short snappers. One is the fact that your association is represented on a number of provincial committees, one being the School Capital Construction Committee. I was dismayed at the small amount of money that was allocated for maintenance for repairs to schools across this province. What input did your association have in the deliberations on this issue, given we have a deferred maintenance of $0.5 billion.
MR. BARTEAUX: I sit on that committee. The committee's function and role is primarily to identify what the needs are from board to board, receive requests and information from the boards and assess those, and develop a province-wide package for submission to government . . .
MR. MACKINNON: Did you do that?
MR. BARTEAUX: Yes.
MR. MACKINNON: Would you then provide that list for members of the committee?
MR. BARTEAUX: That was a public document, I understand, some time ago. Are you talking something recent?
MR. MACKINNON: Yes, for this fiscal year.
MR. BARTEAUX: No, not recently, but the most up-to-date submission is certainly available.
MR. MACKINNON: Okay, if you could provide that. I hate to cut you off, because I know time is valuable here. One other issue, quickly, with regard to the young people in Nova Scotia, my concern is their lack of participation in the political process. It's an issue that I speak to on a number of occasions in the House, and we just actually received third reading on the Youth Secretariat Act, which brings that organization from seven departments down to one. It establishes a template for future considerations for the young people of Nova Scotia. Have you had an opportunity to review that particular piece of legislation, and what is your association doing to support young Nova Scotians to become leaders of tomorrow into the political process?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: It has been an item on our agenda for our education committees. There's a new initiative, I'm just taxing my memory now, I think it's Kids Vote.
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: It's Kids Vote Canada.
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: So we have endorsed that for our boards and sent the people out to each of the boards and the schools to see if they couldn't get participation in that. We think it would be very worthwhile, having some form of it to get young people interested in voting. I'll turn that over to Sharon, because it . . .
MR. MACKINNON: Quickly, Mr. Chairman, before you do that, if I could. If you'd be kind enough to give an undertaking to the members of the committee that you would circulate this particular document, this legislation. I think it's futuristic, in years to come they're not going to know Russell MacKinnon or the name of any member of this committee, but it's a very important document for the young people of Nova Scotia.
MS. FINDLAY-MACPHEE: A couple of things that our organization is doing - first of all I have to give credit to the Halifax Regional School Board. The Halifax board actually started recently, I think within the last year or so having a student member who sits on the board. That person does not vote, but that person does sit on the board and has an alternate if she cannot be there. I know that's happening elsewhere in Canada, in Ontario it's been happening for a while. One of the things we are going to do at our annual conference at the end of this month, is we are going to have a series of bell-ringer sessions, and that student is going to be providing one of those kinds of workshops. Just in case any of the other boards in the province want to try it, they will have the information.
The other thing, too, was that through the Lead & Achieve, through the community forums, all of the school boards did invite students to attend through the student councils and so on, and in a number of the forums there were a lot of students there who did speak very vocally on some of these issues.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, the NDP caucus. Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask a question about deferred maintenance, but also in your comments regarding talking to the minister and meeting with the minister, of course, that's a positive thing, but I'm sure that many of the committees that met with the minister or his department, or whoever was there at the time, the various Ministers of Education that we've gone through throughout the years, you know, the SEIRC Report was done back in 2001 and the BLAC Report in 1993. The kids who would have benefited from the $20 million injection needed for the SEIRC and $3.5 million that's still needed for the BLAC Report, they're going to be out of the system before that money ever falls across their desk. The last time the funding review group met, they said there would need to be an injection of over $100 million. So I just want to remind you of those facts on the negative side when you are meeting with the minister.
My question on deferred maintenance is, the Halifax Regional School Board alone received a report on facilities' renewals from the province, I believe, and that was back between 2000 and 2002, which said that that board alone had deferred maintenance which
exceeded $150 million, if I've got my information correct. Teachers and people within the various departments of the board at that time said that there would be an immediate need for at least $15 million injected in the year 2003. Unfortunately, there was a shortfall in money provided to the board and things remained deferred. In fact in that year, I believe, they had a budget expenditure of $1.5 million to deal with what really was a $150 million deferred maintenance problem.
So my question to you is, would you agree that these deficiencies often extend to the classroom and can affect the teaching and learning environment, would you agree with that comment from the Halifax Regional School Board in this report?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Well, if the maintenance isn't adequate or up to snuff, it certainly will affect the environment for learning, there's no doubt about that. If you have a leaky roof and a pot in the middle of the floor, it's not going to be very conducive. It might be better to watch the drip. I think it's just an obvious thing. I think that would certainly be a thing that this group would be looking at, all those kinds of issues, because they are the pressures that we are talking about and we are hoping that they will be all sought out and looked at, of how we might get adequate funding in all those areas so that there would be a positive learning environment.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Glavine, the last word goes to you.
MR. GLAVINE: The last word, thank you very much. During the past school year I certainly applauded Dr. Gunn for his strong position in terms of inadequate funding for the AVRSB and I, as one of four MLAs representing AVRSB, heard their presentations. I certainly was impressed with some of the groundwork that the Nova Scotia School Boards Association presented on that day. While the government has appointed Mr. Bill Hogg, my - not advice, I guess, but my plea would be that the Nova Scotia School Boards Association take a very, very strong role in the direction of where funding is going to go in this province if we are now the least funded per student in the country. There is already some work that has been done within some of the school boards showing the inadequacies and I would certainly hope to see your organization, as you step into the next 50 years, be a leader in that area. Thank you for coming today.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Does your association have a few closing comments?
MS. MARY JESS MACDONALD: Again, I would like to thank you all very much for inviting us and hearing our concerns. It's a very positive thing for us that in all the school boards the funding formula is being addressed. We do know it's very complex, you could come in with a list of numbers, you could say this pot might be big enough or so forth, but it is so complex that you have to look at the whole complex issue and see what the parts are, the components, the pressures and how you can address them adequately. I think in the long
run it will make it clearer what is adequate funding, what will put us up where we should be in addressing the needs of students, with money.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Barteaux, Ms. MacPhee and Mary Jess, on behalf of the committee, we thank you very much for being here today and making your presentation and answering the questions. I guess maybe some people know, maybe some people don't know, that Mary Jess is a board member of the Strait Regional School Board, the one that I represent. Mary Jess has been an advocate in the area for a long, long time as far as education goes. I might also add that her husband, Red Eddie, as I know him, was a member of the Inverness council down there and a warden for a good number of years. Give my regards to Red Eddie. So, thank you for being here.
We have one more item here. Just for the members' information, May 25th is our next scheduled meeting for the ABCs. That's the day after the holiday so I guess it would be my suggestion that we meet at 1:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m. instead of at 9:00 a.m. It will give us a chance to come in in the morning.
Motion to adjourn.
MR. MACKINNON: I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We are adjourned.
[The meeting adjourned at 10:57 a.m.]