HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MARCH 30, 2004
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Ronald Chisholm
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will call the meeting of the Committee on Human Resources to order. For the record, we will go around the table and ask everyone to introduce themselves, starting with Ms. Raymond.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, everyone. The first item on our agenda is to approve or not approve the people for the agencies, boards and commissions, the appointments. So, starting with Mr. Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Education, Provincial Examining and Licensing Committee, Cosmetology, I so move Andrea Riley as a member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Health, Crosbie Memorial Addictions Trust Fund, I so move Dave Chisholm, George Libby, Ralph MacGowan and Dennis Holland as board members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
1
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Cumberland District Health Authority, No.5, I so move Jacqueline Beal, Dora Fuller and Dr. Krystian Szczesny as board members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Health Research Foundation of Nova Scotia, I so move Frances Hinton and Peter Mullen as board members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor, you are on your own on this one.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Nova Scotia College of Medical Laboratory Technologists, I so move Mr. Bageshapura Chandrashekhar as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Licensed Practical Nurses College, I so move Lucy Reid and Lloyd Tattrie as board members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Registered Nurses College, I so move Idy Fashoranti, Rev. David LeBlanc and Jean Webb as board members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? (Interruptions) Yes, I know, they're stuck together with the plastic. (Interruptions)
You have all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question?
MR. KEITH COLWELL: I have a question. I would just like to look at - do you have the resumés here? I haven't been in this committee for a long time. I would just like to have a quick look at one of them here. Where would I find that? (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Have you found it, Mr. Colwell?
MR. COLWELL: Yes. I'm just having a quick look through it here, if that's all right.
I would like to vote on those separately.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the wish of the committee?
Okay, the first one, Mr. O'Donnell. We are doing them one at a time.
MR. O'DONNELL: I so move Idy Fashoranti as a board member of the Registered Nurses College.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The next one.
MR. O'DONNELL: Rev. David LeBlanc.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Jean Webb.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Council of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Nova Scotia, I so move Mary Seyffert Hamblin as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Board of Examiners in Psychology, Prem Dhir.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Office of Health Promotion, under the Gaming Foundation, I so move Mr. Delbert Muise as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Board of Registration of Embalmers and Funeral Directors, Wayne Weatherbee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Our last one, Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to the Public Accountants Board, I so move Arnold Fralick, Rena Langley and Robert F. Madden as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Are all of these members who we are appointing today CAs or CGAs? (Interruption) Right, yes. Sorry, I'm just asking a question. My colleague has helped me out with that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
That concludes the appointments so there is some committee business that we have. We have some requests from different groups. We have about three letters, I believe. One is from Alison Scott, a response to a letter that we sent to Ms. Scott on February 25th, as a result of our last meeting, for some more detailed information, clarifying the number and representative applicants in regard to the Affirmative Action Program. Everybody has a copy of that. Ms. MacDonald.
[9:15 a.m.]
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: In light of the information we've received from the Clerk of the Executive Council, this indicates that the number of applicants who self-identify, from affirmative action groups, is patently small. I think we really need to do something about that. I think this suggests that the current system is broken and it doesn't really work for getting the number of applicants from designated groups. I would hope that, now that we have this information, this committee will be prepared to work together to develop a plan to improve the representation of women and members of other designated affirmative action groups, like persons with disabilities and racially-visible persons and Aboriginal people. I would like to throw that out for discussion and, if necessary, put a motion to that effect.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I'm just wondering, I know in our terms of reference - and perhaps I could ask you for clarification - it clearly points out or delineates that the mandate of this committee is to approve or disapprove, and on occasion I guess we do stand some names, but I'm wondering, would I be out of place to ask you to read into the record the terms of reference of this committee?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Basically, if you go into the terms of reference - I think everybody was provided with a copy of this when we formed this most recent committee - and if you go to No. 4 in the terms of reference for the appointments to agencies, boards and commissions, "The purpose of the Committee review is not to replace the function of Government Departments and Ministers in making appointments. Its function is to approve or not approve of the name before it, not to consider or recommend alternative names for appointments." Those are basically the terms for the appointments to ABCs.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, if I could suggest, from recall, a former Liberal Government, I think under the Premiership of the late honourable John Savage, established this committee. Having been on it a few years, I know that at different times committee members have, in fact, tried to take it upon themselves to broaden the scope and the responsibility of this committee. On occasion, we have agreed to do that, and at other times
we haven't, as a committee. I think, myself, that the affirmative action provision in the ABC process is, for the most part, working.
I don't know about constitutionally, but I don't think that anyone should be forced or perhaps even encouraged to self-identify themselves as an affirmative action candidate.
Quite frankly, I think it's time that we got on with our business as committee members and stick to our terms of reference, as closely as we can. That's my opinion and I appreciate the opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to express it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Colwell.
MR. COLWELL: I'm very concerned about this - I'm representing the largest Black community, probably in Canada - that there aren't more people applying and identifying themselves as being a racially-visible person. I have some problems with that, when someone identifies themselves, as Mr. Taylor does, as having to identify themselves as a racially-visible person, but perhaps on their application form or the process that goes through there could be a better way to identify individuals who are minorities.
I think it's very important for this committee to take that into consideration, as well as the government and the ministers, when they do these appointments, to make sure that we do have an equitable position for individuals from minorities, whether they be by gender or by colour or religion, whatever the case may be. I think that's very important. If you look back at the history, in the Black community in particular, a lot of regressive things have happened to the Black community over the last couple of hundred years in Nova Scotia. I think it's time that all ended, and that people from our communities have the opportunity to serve on these boards and give the valued input, which they definitely do have.
I would like to hear, maybe from the chairman, some suggestions on how we can help alleviate this. I would also like to know how many of the people who applied were racially-visible persons, Aboriginals, disabled or women? How many of these people actually did get appointed to boards, out of these large numbers of applicants who were in there? Did any of them get appointed? If they did, when were they appointed, and to what boards? That's what I would like to know as well. That's very important. Out of 2,300 applicants, only 46 were identified. That's a pretty low number.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It was the wish of the people who applied. It was their wish, if they indicated that they were a visible minority. I'm not sure how we can, as a committee or as a government, get people to put on their CV/resumé if they are a visible minority or not. We've been beating this around now for the last three or four meetings, the same thing. I just looked today, nine women and 14 men were appointed to ABCs today, and three of them that we know of were visible minorities. I think at our last meeting two people, that we knew of, were from the Black community.
We can only go with what we have. What else we do, I don't know. The list goes out twice a year. It's identified on it that it's an affirmative action program. How we do it, I don't know. What else we do, I don't know. Ms. Whalen.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: I would just like to lend my support to this idea, that we do more to ensure that people are applying and that they are representing the people of Nova Scotia, the total broad spectrum of people in Nova Scotia, men and women and other people as well. When we read out the terms of reference there, we are making the appointments but we're responsible for ensuring that they're good appointments and that they do represent the people of Nova Scotia. I think asking where they come from, geographically, and whether they represent particular groups in the community is important.
We talked last month when we had the meeting about perhaps forming a subcommittee and having a chance to look at that in more detail. I don't know if that's where Ms. MacDonald wants to go with it, but I think that it does fall within the mandate of this committee, that we look at it more seriously. I would like to see us do that. I had mentioned last month, as well, that part of that should be to look at how well we publicize these opportunities to serve in the community.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It's our mandate as a committee to appoint or not appoint the names that come to the committee for appointment.
MS. WHALEN: I agree, but the less information we have, the less able we are to make good appointments, and if it's not well publicized then we know that there's a whole segment of the population that isn't even aware of or able to participate in the work of the province. I think that so much does depend on these many committees and boards that we should be doing all we can to encourage people to come out and participate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's true. People call my office and I think they do yours as well. I make available the positions that are available in government, and that's about all I can do with it, tell them to apply. I think in your office, as well as in every MLA's office across the province, the same thing happens. Ms. Raymond.
MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Because this is not a part of my regular committee work, I'm sorry, I don't know the actual terms of reference for this committee, but I would think, as Ms. Whalen says, the publicity is a very important part of it and it could, perhaps, be asked of the department putting out the lists, that there be some targeted advertising as well and, perhaps, that there's a very specific set of guidelines put out to the MLA's office with the request, please ensure your constituents are aware; a very deliberate effort, it doesn't take much.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, again, I repeat that we're trying to broaden the scope of our mandate and our terms of reference. It's very clear, you read the terms of reference into the record. The Human Rights Commission very clearly states that all people are equal, and we can't continually be looking at every appointment through the lens of affirmative action. Our job is very clear, to approve or disapprove appointments.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Well, I'm rather astonished at the comments of the honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. The system is not working. It is not working for a significant proportion of people in our province who are entitled to have access to opportunities, serving on ABCs in this province, number one. Number two, this province would greatly benefit from the vantage points of persons from other groups, a wide variety of perspectives and life experiences.
Perhaps it isn't the mandate of this committee to develop a plan, but there's absolutely nothing to prohibit this committee from saying to Executive Council that, to date, what is occurring is not working and we want you to provide a better plan to address what clearly are serious inequities and weaknesses in the current appointment process. If you look at these numbers, there's nobody who can argue that these numbers adequately reflect a system that's working with respect to bringing forward women, persons with disabilities, racially-visible persons, Aboriginal people to the ABCs in the province.
I think this is something that we have an opportunity to address, to send a clear message to the government, to the Executive Council that this system is not working, and we want to see something done about it. I fully concur with the member for Halifax Clayton Park, the government advertises twice a year in the newspapers, but is this really enough, particularly with respect to designated groups? Perhaps we need a different approach. That should be considered in a plan to address the current situation. That's all I'm suggesting, that the relevant body that has the responsibility, therefore, develop a plan and respond to the concerns of members of this committee.
MR. COLWELL: I am concerned, too, with the comments made by the honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. Maybe this committee doesn't realize, but in the 1970s the Black community had to take a class action suit against the Province of Nova Scotia and the Department of Education so they would get a fair opportunity for education, and they won that case. In the 1970s, when you think back, that's recent history. When you look at this, this is repeating that whole process and it's not allowing the people in the community the opportunity to get on these boards. I think it's outrageous, I think it has to stop. We really need the perspective of the people from those communities on these boards to make sure that we're represented properly in Nova Scotia. Anyone who thinks anything different really needs a new education. This is an important factor to make sure that people have the opportunity to serve on these boards and make a direction for Nova Scotia that's very important for all of us.
I really believe we are going to have to do something about this, we're going to want to see a concerted effort by government to make sure the people in all these categories have an equal opportunity to get on these boards and to make their viewpoints known; it's very, very important.
[9:30 a.m.]
As I asked already, I would like to see how many people have actually been appointed by this committee and the information that fit in this category, that have actually been appointed from the number of appointments that have been made, and I make that request, officially. As the chairman indicated, there were some people appointed and I assume he knows if they were either women or from visible minorities in some form or another. He indicated there were so I would like to see those actual numbers, I think that's important for our committee. I think we need to do something to move this forward and put some pressure on the province to make sure that this does transpire.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Everybody has a copy of the appointments that have been done, every month we get them a week ahead of the meeting. We have every opportunity to go through them, as I did, and make inquiries as to who's who, or how many women, how many men. It wasn't hard to pick out the gender, it was a little harder to pick out the visible minorities. I know from research that I did last month, there were two African Nova Scotians appointed to ABCs out of - I'm not sure what the number was, but those were people who applied. I don't know how many people applied, nobody on this committee knows how many people applied.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, with reference to the member for Preston, I appreciate the history lesson but it's not exactly as I recall it. Each and every time there is an appointment on this committee, we are told that the ABC currently meets the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government. I don't think the advertisements somehow avoid or are not circulated in individual ridings or communities, it is a provincial advertisement that goes out.
There is a difference between the self-identified applications and the actual applications that are received. In fact, we received numbers where there were 204 women who applied in 2003 and 32 per cent were appointed; we had that information at a previous meeting. I don't think we want to get carried away here and say that somehow there's a great imbalance and every time a name comes up we have to look at it through the lens of affirmative action, because it is pointed out with each and every appointment that the guidelines of the affirmative action policy are very clear and it should be very clear to that honourable member, how the affirmative action policy reads. I take some issue, quite frankly, with a member suggesting that there isn't an opportunity for people across Nova Scotia, irrespective of where they live, to apply to these ABCs; there always has been and as far as I'm concerned there always should be and will be.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: If I could, although the forms that we receive each month do ask the question about whether or not the ABC currently meets the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government, that answer is always yes, even when the whole committee, the entire committee is all men - which is the simplest thing to see what the gender breakdown is - so it doesn't seem to have much meaning. We don't know what they're doing to address affirmative action. I've noticed in the attachment to the letter that has the statistics on it, under Policy Directives which is Page 3-2, Affirmative Action Plan, it does say, "Each department, agency, board, and commission will develop a three-year affirmative action plan, using information provided in the workforce profile . . . and implementation measures designed to improve the representation of the designated groups."
I don't think we have any evidence that any of our boards and commissions have actually done this, so I would like to ask whether we could please contact our agencies, boards and commissions and ask if any of them are doing this; just ask the question, are they doing it? Perhaps they are and that's why when we see them answer yes that the appointments are all within their affirmative action plan, perhaps there's a reason for it. On paper, it doesn't appear that there is any reason to answer yes in every case.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just not sure if that would be the department or the board that we would ask that question to.
MS. WHALEN: It's the first time I have had a chance to look at that carefully, but maybe you could review that Page 3-2, Affirmative Action Plan, which seems to indicate under Policy Directives, that agencies, boards and commissions are supposed to develop that, and if that, in fact, was the case when this plan was adopted. I know from serving on those boards, sometimes things are not done as speedily as they might be because there's a lot of business to attend to. Perhaps we could ask them if they are doing it, have they done it, where they are in that plan.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: As well, just to point out, the Public Service Commission periodically conducts audits of departmental affirmative action practices and they certainly would have the ability to ascertain whether or not they are in compliance with the provisions of the Affirmative Action Program. We're being told that they are, yet some people disagree with it and obviously, some have some concerns. Perhaps they need more clarification.
MS. WHALEN: The next section, Affirmative Action Progress Report, indicates, "Each department, agency, board, and commission will submit an annual progress report to the Public Service Commissioner . . .", so if you find that perhaps more targeted, you might like to - on our behalf - write a letter to the Public Service Commissioner and ask if they've
heard of any progress reports, if they've received any, specifically, from the agencies, boards and commissions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess I go back to our mandate which is to appoint or not appoint people to ABCs, I'm not sure it is our mandate to be writing letters to the Public Service Commission.
MS. WHALEN: I think we're unable to do a responsible job for this if we don't have that information, if we don't know that this is being done, that people are being properly notified, and so on. I think it just gives a lot more credibility to the work of this committee, so I leave it with you.
MR. COLWELL: I agree with my colleague that we need to know for sure that there is affirmative action taking place here and we need to know that indeed - and I don't buy your explanation, Mr. Chairman, that it's not our decision because it is the committee's decision to vote on the people who are brought forward. If this policy is not being followed or we don't have the information to make an accurate decision on this, how do we know if this policy is going forward or not? I think it is very important for the committee members to have an understanding of exactly what is transpiring in this area.
I am going to make a motion that we write a letter to the Public Service Commission and ask them to review the affirmative action program when it comes to boards and commissions. I so move.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I second that motion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on the motion?
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The only thing I can see, as far as the ad goes, it was in a letter we got from Alison Scott last month, it is in fine print down at the bottom about affirmative action. I think if there was some way we could (Interruption) But it is in small print, so that could be changed to maybe highlight it somehow, if that's any help. Anyway, I'm not sure we can beat people on the head to apply, all you can do is give it your best shot.
MS. WHALEN: One further suggestion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: One more and that's it, we're moving on.
MS. WHALEN: I understand. I think your point about enlarging the section that says, we encourage affirmative action and so on is good but it's because we only run them in the one newspaper. Maybe we could run them in other types of newspapers, maybe we could run them in the ones targeted to different communities or that sort of thing; more broadly advertised is what I'm really saying.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I wasn't part of the discussion when it was determined how to do that, with the dailies. The Daily News, the Cape Breton Post and The Herald, those are the papers that are used now. The cost is quite high. Any thoughts on that, Darlene, as to how they . . .
MR. COLWELL: If I might, Mr. Chairman. There are some magazines and periodicals from different community organizations where it wouldn't be too expensive to put out. I can think of two or three magazines that are directed to ethnic groups, that might be a good place to advertise these or at least make people aware. Maybe it doesn't have to be the whole ad, it could be an ad that indicates there are boards and commissions available, contact the office here to get a copy of the ones that are available, and indicate that there is an Affirmative Action Program in place so people will move forward with this. Basically, if you don't get it out to the people and advertise more widely in the areas where people typically read or are aware of, they're not going to apply. So I think we have to do more to do that.
I would make a motion to do that, as well, to review the advertising process and see if we can't become more proactive in the area of affirmative action and see if we can't look at some other advertising vehicles in addition to the ones we have now, and I so move.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I will second that motion.
MR. TAYLOR: I'm just wondering on the motion if the member considered partnering up with Hungry Jack's out there. There's a nice billboard with a little room on it from time to time where you could encourage your constituents to apply when the ABCs are advertised.
MR. COLWELL: This is a very serious matter.
MR. TAYLOR: It was just a suggestion.
MR. COLWELL: I don't appreciate jokes about this. This is a very serious matter to the members of my community.
MR. TAYLOR: To members of everybody's community, with all respect, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Let's have a little bit of order here now. We're getting off topic.
We've all heard the motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
What else do we have? We have a letter from Joan Jessome. I guess everybody has had a copy of that letter in their package over the last week or so. I guess Ms. Jessome is looking to bring in the Public Service Commission as a witness and I'm not sure if that is part of our mandate. Has everybody had a chance to review that letter? Any discussion?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I think this is a great idea, this is exactly what this committee is here for. I would move that we invite the Public Service Commission to appear before us. In light of the discussion we just had, it makes great sense to have them come and have a discussion about the various issues facing the government with respect to human resources and the workforce. I so move.
MR. COLWELL: I second it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion?
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, is it within our mandate to deal with this?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, our mandate is, I guess . . .
MR. TAYLOR: Well, with all respect, I would like to hear from our sage counsel as to whether or not it is in our mandate.
[9:45 a.m.]
MR. GORDON HEBB: All I can say is your mandate is set out in the rules in Section 60(2)(c): "the Human Resources Committee is established for the purpose of (i) considering matters normally assigned to or within the purview of the Departments and Ministers of Education and Culture and of Labour." I won't read the rest, because you've already talked about the mandate with respect to the appointments.
I guess it's up to the committee to decide - clearly it doesn't fall within those departments - whether this falls under the other part with respect to your appointments and I can't give you an answer to that, I think that's something the committee is going to have to decide for itself. It may not be to the full extent that is set out in Ms. Jessome's letter - some of those things may be, some of those things may not be - but that's something for the committee to determine, whether the committee feels that that falls or has relevance to the
appointment process. I think that is something that people can have a variation of opinions on and I don't think I can give you a legal answer as to whether it's clearly not or clearly is. I think that's something the committee has to decide.
Certainly what is set out there in the rules is not just the Public Service Commission generally it's a very specific aspect of that thing, so you have to decide whether it falls within that somewhat narrower thing rather than the broad thing that falls under the first thing with respect to those departments and decide whether that falls under the committee's mandate. I don't know if that's helpful or not.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, again, I am not clear and I don't think anybody around this table is as to whether or not it is within our mandate. Obviously, Mr. Hebb is a little bit uncertain himself and I think, Mr. Chairman, it would be more appropriate for you to seek a determination as to whether or not, in fact, it is within our mandate. If we have a mandate to explore this sort of subject, I certainly would be prepared to support it; if not, we won't.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not sure if it's in our mandate as well. I would certainly be prepared to do that, get some other opinions on it. Maybe between the clerk and myself, we could . . .
MS. WHALEN: I think that would be good. I would support that, if you would have a closer look. But I wanted to remind the committee, I'm quite sure that it is the Human Resources Committee that just very recently heard from the Workers' Compensation Board and they came and addressed us in the Red Room in Province House and that was under the guise of our concern with labour and so on. These three areas, the Department of Labour, the Department of Education and the Public Service Commission seem to fall under the umbrella of this committee and I think that that is all we're looking for, is a similar session with the Public Service Commission at this point.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess the problem I have with it is they're wanting to talk about the proposed amendments to update and modernize the Civil Service Collective Bargaining Act. I'm not totally clear if that is something we should be discussing as a committee or not. So I would like to get further clarification on it. (Interruption)
Mr. Glavine hasn't had a chance yet.
MR. LEO GLAVINE: I would say that perhaps not every aspect or detail of that letter - for example, there's quite an extensive list of areas there. We certainly are under her particular area of jurisdiction but for us there may be more in the line of what we deal with here, especially with the affirmative action and people with disabilities and so forth, that do come across our mandate. So, perhaps, it could be even restricted, but I certainly see it as part of this whole umbrella of what we do here on the Human Resources Committee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe we need some more clarification on this. Mr. Colwell.
MR. COLWELL: I agree with Mr. Glavine. I think we could restrict this to some very distinct issues we've already raised today under diversity management and affirmative action. I don't think the collective agreement is for our committee to discuss, I think that's outside our purview. I think it's important that we invite them to come in. I don't think we have to review it further, I think it's a part of what we're mandated to do here, to make responsible appointments to these boards, and we have to take the things, such as affirmative action, into consideration.
These are the people who have the stats and can tell us how we're performing, and I think it's important we bring them in for that reason. Maybe we could ask them to come in just for that reason, and talk to them about that. We could also talk about the aging workforce. I believe that would probably be the end of what I would think we would probably want to do. It's just my opinion. They are all things that have a tendency to alienate people, people who have a problem with their employment, one thing or another, are on board. I would make a motion that we ask the Public Service Commission to come in . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: We already have a motion on the floor.
MR. COLWELL: Maybe we could amend the motion. Would you entertain a friendly amendment?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Amend it in which way?
MR. COLWELL: That we talk strictly about the aging workforce, diversity management and affirmative action.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would agree to amend to the last sentence in the second paragraph.
MR. COLWELL: So it would include all the issues that they have down there. We would have to leave collective bargaining out, though.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I would say that if the Public Service Commission comes before us, I think we should be able to speak about collective bargaining in a general sense, in terms of the modernization of legislation. Bill No. 28, I believe it was, was the bill that reorganized the Public Service Commission and gave them greater powers. Since that time, we have seen, in this province, a number of fairly serious labour disputes that this government did not manage very well. We saw Bill No. 68, with the health care professionals, we saw the Regional Residential Services Society strike.
I think it would be really important for us, as members of the Legislature, to be able to speak to the Public Service Commission, in a general way, about why those situations occurred, what went wrong in those situations, and what their role, shall we say, was in directing various government departments with respect to these situations. I don't necessarily think that we would get into discussing amendments to the Civil Service Collective Bargaining Act, although it's a piece of legislation that's seriously outdated and does probably require a look by the Legislature.
I think that all of these issues outlined in the second paragraph, the final line, are issues of grave concern, certainly to our caucus, in light of what has been occurring over the last few years in the province, and it would be good to have an opportunity to speak to the Public Service Commission about their views on these matters, including collective bargaining in a general sense.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Raymond, your last comment, and then we will go to Mr. Colwell on his motion.
MS. RAYMOND: I would just like to say that, again, not being a member of this committee, I would think, however, it's important that the committee remember the distinction, initially this question comes up as a question about the breadth of the pool of applicants to ABCs and that's why we're talking about the Public Service Commission appearing. Ms. Jessome is asking for an appearance before the committee in terms of the Civil Service. I just think it might be easier for your work if you keep those as perhaps two separate appearances. I have no doubt that it is within the committee's mandate to discuss Civil Service policy, but you may want to continue talking about your ABCs.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion on the floor.
MR. COLWELL: I would like to make an amendment to the motion. Again, for some of the reasons, all these issues are very important to Nova Scotians and to the Government of Nova Scotia, the government of the day, and any subsequent government, but I would like to limit this only because we want to make sure that it's under the purview of this committee to do this. I mean, if we get into some of these things and it's really not anything to do with this committee, I would amend the motion that it would only include the following issues: aging workforce, diversity management, affirmative action, and recruitment and retention, because they all would refer to this committee, especially recruitment and retention, where we try to recruit more people from visible minorities, the other ones are self-explanatory. So, I would make that amendment to the motion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Speaking to the amendment.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I will support the amendment, because it's clear that half a loaf is better than no loaf at all. So I will vote in favour of the amendment. We could make it a friendly amendment, actually.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I want to know if a motion to table the motion until you get a determination is in order?
MR. HEBB: That's always in order of any motion.
MR. TAYLOR: I clearly think we're outside our mandate and I haven't heard anybody read into the record other than what you read earlier that indicated that it was outside the mandate. Our legal counsel expressed uncertainty and here we go, we're going to take on a new role and responsibility as a committee. So, Mr. Chairman, for the record, I would make a motion that we table the motion that is presently on the floor until you get a determination as to whether or not it is within our mandate. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There's a motion, there's an amendment and now there's another motion.
MR. HEBB: It's a motion to defer.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion to defer on the floor. We've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is defeated.
The motion as amended. You have all heard that motion.
MR. TAYLOR: Could Darlene let us know what that motion was?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): It is to bring in the Public Service Commission to deal with the aging workforce, diversity management, affirmative action, and recruitment and retention.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have all heard the motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The next one we have is from the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, from Debbie Madore. There are two on the agenda, the Halifax Regional School Board.
The Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board from Debbie Madore, she is wanting to come before the committee to discuss the Breakfast for Learning program. Again, I am not sure if that's part of our mandate either. Should be, maybe Community Services or . . .
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I think education does fall under this committee, as stated in the rules.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It does.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I think that's probably what the presumption is here. I understand what you're saying, perhaps a breakfast program is more appropriately directed to the Standing Committee on Community Services.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion?
MR. COLWELL: Just one comment. I hate receiving these letters with something blacked out on them, because we don't know if it was really directed to this committee or not.
MRS. HENRY: That's the way it was presented to me. I don't know what was . . .
MR. COLWELL: I realize that. So I don't know even if that's something that . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: It appears that they wanted to meet with a different committee and it was passed on to us and I'm not sure whether it was from that committee.
MR. HEBB: It may not be blacked out, it may be yellowed, which on the photocopier comes out as black; some colours don't allow photocopying.
MR. COLWELL: Still, you can't read it; it doesn't matter, you can't read it. I have an issue with that.
MR. HEBB: I'm just saying that I don't think it was probably the intention to black it out, but to highlight it.
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. COLWELL: It looks like somebody might have redirected it to all kinds of different committees, that's what I'm saying, rather than the request come right to this committee, which I'm not too happy about.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think from the letter that she has, along with the request, is that she has met with different ministers and deputy ministers. So what's the wish of the committee?
MR. GLAVINE: I would move that this go before the Community Services Committee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder for that?
MR. TAYLOR: I will second that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
I'm not sure that we can really refer it to that committee. Maybe we could write Ms. Madore and tell her that she would have to make the request to the Community Services Committee.
MS. WHALEN: I think it would be more appropriate if we did that. I just don't think that's a very good response to a member of the public who has called upon us to hear her concerns.
MR. CHAIRMAN: My suggestion was that we write her a letter saying that we discussed it here and that we think it would be more appropriate for her to make a request to the Community Services Committee.
MS. WHALEN: Could we not make that request on her behalf? I think the person who's writing simply wants to be heard by a legislative committee; I'm sure she doesn't care which one.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess that's appropriate because on the next one, the Public Accounts Committee has requested the same thing. (Interruption) We will still write her a letter and tell her.
MS. WHALEN: Yes, and tell her what we have done.
MR. CHAIRMAN: What we've done, yes.
MS. WHALEN: Thank you, I appreciate that.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, just as an observation here. We've somehow decided that this is outside our mandate, and dealing with collective bargaining is inside our mandate, clearly, I think it's probably time that - and I'm not sure who the committee is actually accountable to, but I do have concerns that we are stepping outside our terms of reference. I didn't write the terms of reference, it's documented. I think it was the former Liberal Government that brought the terms of reference in. Again, I really feel that we are stepping outside our mandate. As much as I have concerns about Ms. Jessome's request, this one here is under the Department of Education, which is clearly spelled out in our mandate. So we're all over the road map.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Taylor. We have another one from the Halifax Regional School Board. They went to the Public Accounts Committee and the Public Accounts Committee forwarded it to the Human Resources Committee, and the Halifax Regional School Board wants to discuss the funding formula used by the Department of Education to determine the school board's budget.
I would say that that is probably within our mandate. Whatever else is or isn't, that probably is.
Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Clearly this does fall within our mandate, as you have just stated, Mr. Chairman, and I think it is entirely appropriate that this committee invite members of the Halifax Regional School Board to come talk to us about this issue. But I would also say that I think if we go down that road, we should invite the Nova Scotia School Boards Association to also appear in front of us to talk about the education funding formula, because, as we know, school boards across the province - school boards in Cape Breton, for example, are facing some extraordinary financial challenges due to declining population, declining enrolment and a funding formula that still relies heavily on per capita funding.
I would fully support that this committee start a process of hearing from the boards around the funding formula used by the current government to determine school board budgets. I think it would be quite timely, given that we're soon to have our provincial budget brought down.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a motion on the floor?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would make that a motion.
MR. TAYLOR: Just a little clarification. Mr. Chairman, is the member saying we would invite the Nova Scotia School Boards Association to each and every meeting that we entertain with the boards like Halifax, or would we perhaps as the parent or umbrella body invite the School Boards Association in?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Instead of?
MR. TAYLOR: We had a request - irrespective of what the issue was - from the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, and we said no and referred it to another committee. We have a request here from the Halifax Regional School Board concerning a funding formula and we are going to perhaps entertain bringing them in. Are we going to bring the Nova Scotia School Boards Association in at the same time, a different time? I'm just seeking clarification, Mr. Chairman.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: What I was thinking was that we would have two different days for presentations. We would hear from the Halifax Regional School Board with regard to their particular concerns, because they have requested the meeting, so let's give them the two hours to come; it's a fairly complex topic and it would probably require two hours. Then, I think it would be good to follow that up with a second committee meeting where we invite the Nova Scotia School Boards Association to come in and give us the provincial perspective.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Who is asking to come in, is it the Department of Education or the school board that wants to come in?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I think the school board wants to come in.
MS. WHALEN: It was actually a motion made at the Halifax Regional School Board asking that some of their members come and explain to us their position. They feel that there's a funding shortfall of $10 million and they would like to explain that to us and have us respond, I guess.
MR. CHAIRMAN: They're not really asking - " . . . the Public Accounts Committee of the province hold an inquiry into the funding formula used to fund school boards that shows . . .", a $10 million shortfall in Halifax. They're really asking to hold an inquiry, they don't say that they want to come before the . . .
MR. TAYLOR: I don't think there is any question that this would fall within our mandate. The question from my perspective is whether or not we would - perhaps even on behalf of the Halifax Regional School Board - invite the Nova Scotia School Boards Association to appear before the committee. However, if it's the feeling of the committee that we would deal with each board across - for example, yesterday some MLAs met with the Chignecto-Central Regional School Board and the member is quite correct, it does take
about two hours to go through the different issues and areas of concern that the boards do have, and the boards are certainly working very hard and most effectively.
I guess I'm wondering now for more clarification on the motion that's on the floor; what, where, when and who?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure if even in their motion that they're asking to come in.
MR. TAYLOR: The letter is from Mr. Steele.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, but there is a motion on the back. They're asking the Public Accounts Committee of the province to hold an inquiry, that was their motion, they didn't really request to come here.
Mr. Colwell.
MR. COLWELL: I agree with you, if you look through this, the Chairman of the Halifax Regional School Board indicates she mistakenly sent it to the Auditor General's office, that's it. There is no indication that they want to go before the Public Accounts Committee, or this committee, or any committee. It's very unusual, it seems to have been generated from the Public Accounts Committee, there are all kinds of letters here from Mr. Steele and nothing from the school board directly asking to come before this committee. I think that is highly unusual.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe, as Ms. MacDonald and Mr. Taylor have suggested, the Nova Scotia School Boards Association should come before the committee, instead of the school board. They can discuss the funding issues right across the province.
Mr. Glavine.
MR. GLAVINE: Yes, I would concur with that, Mr. Chairman. I have met with four of the superintendents in recent months and there are certainly a lot of anomalies with the current funding formula. I think, for our benefit and enlightenment, it would be great to have the Nova Scotia School Boards Association and their perspective. They have, in fact, currently drawn up some resolutions and directions which they think it should be going forward with. I think it would be of real benefit to our committee because I think, if we open up the door here - and it may be rightly - if we have one school board, I can see three other school boards following very quickly on their heels. There are some distinctions among the school boards in terms of funding and I think the School Boards Association is able to bring that in certainly one effort here to our table.
MR. CHAIRMAN: As the umbrella group for the province's school boards.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: So there was no motion, actually, but I move that we invite the Nova Scotia School Boards Association to make a presentation on the funding formula and that we follow that up then with a presentation from the Department of Education to talk about the funding formula.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: I don't entirely agree with my colleagues today. What I would like to say is that I have spoken to the school board representative from my area in Halifax and I was told specifically that they wanted to come before the Public Accounts Committee, that was where they felt it fell because of the funding formula being financial. However, it's clearly the decision of the Public Accounts Committee that it's more an education issue and should be heard here. I will say their letter is not specific, it's not really clear that they're saying they want to come. I think what is clear is that they definitely want the issue looked at and they want a voice and I think we should hear them.
The fact that the budget is coming down very soon means that if we postpone this month, it will be two to three months before they get in to see us. I would be happy to tell the other members of the committee that I have heard specifically from Mr. Campbell, who is the one who made this motion. Jeff Campbell is the school board rep for our area and he was very clear that they want to come before one of the legislative committees to make their case.
I would like to propose that we not postpone this for a long period of time. If possible, if we want to hear from the School Boards Association and the Department of Education, then I would suggest we have some extra meetings in the next month. I would like to make a motion that we also invite the school board representatives to come and make their case.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That sounds like about three months work.
MS. WHALEN: This committee doesn't meet very often, once a month and if we do have more work to do, and I think these are important issues that clearly, as Mr. Taylor said, fall within our mandate. Really, they are time-sensitive because it is a budget period.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Just a tad bit facetious, with all the issues within our mandate and outside our mandate we are going to be a very busy committee, Mr. Chairman.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would withdraw my motion on the Nova Scotia School Boards Association and the Department of Education and entertain a motion from the honourable member for Halifax Clayton Park, that we invite the Halifax Regional School Board, as well as the Nova Scotia School Boards Association and the Department of
Education. This is the second-largest expenditure in the provincial budget. Education is a really important issue and this is our mandate, so I have no problem having some extra meetings.
[10:15 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? The motion is on the floor, to have the Halifax Regional School Board in, as well as the Department of Education.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: And the Nova Scotia School Boards Association.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Maybe the member could clarify just what her intent is with her motion. I know what the motion reads, but . . .
MS. WHALEN: The motion is made by the member for Halifax Needham, but my intent would be to give the Halifax Regional School Board an opportunity to come before us and explain how they've calculated what they see as a shortfall in the funding formula. Then, I do agree it's important that we hear from the Nova Scotia School Boards Association following that, so that we can get a provincial perspective, because we know there are different pressures on different school boards throughout the province.
MR. CHAIRMAN: They would have to be separate meetings.
MS. WHALEN: I think so.
MR. TAYLOR: In that sense, they should be separate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will entertain a motion for the Halifax Regional School Board first.
MS. WHALEN: I will second that. Do you need to hear the motion?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We should, for the record.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I move that this committee invite the Halifax Regional School Board to appear before us to discuss their concerns around the funding formula.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would also move that the Nova Scotia School Boards Association be invited to appear before us to discuss the funding formula for education.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Do we have another one?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Let's see what comes out of those meetings, and then perhaps we will want the Department of Education or perhaps we will be so immersed in the budget in the House that we will have lots of opportunity to talk to the minister.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that concludes the correspondence that we had. If there's no further business . . .
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I move adjournment.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 10:18 a.m.]