HALIFAX, TUESDAY, JANUARY 27, 2004
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Ronald Chisholm
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to bring the meeting of the Standing Committee on Human Resources to order. I guess the first thing we have on our agenda is the appointments to the ABCs.
We will go around the table for introductions, starting with Mr. O'Donnell.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Now we will get into the appointments with the Office of Economic Development. Mr. Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Office of Economic Development and more specifically the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, I so move Brian Butler, Robert Curley and Frank Elliott to the positions of directors.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, in our last meeting, the member for Dartmouth East had raised concerns about the lack of gender equity issues around the appointments to these boards. With respect to these appointments, we think that these appointments will mean that this board will be completely dominated by men, I think 9 to one. So With that in mind, I speak for myself here, but I am not prepared to support these appointments. It has nothing to do with the capacity or the capability of these individuals but if we are going to start addressing the equity issues, then this is probably a good place to start.
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: As a follow-up to the past meeting, or the meeting last month, there were I think five points that were referenced by the member for Dartmouth East. I did send a letter to Executive Council asking for clarification on those five points and we did receive a letter back from Executive Council. I apologize, we only received the letter back from them on Friday. They were couriered yesterday to each caucus office so you may not have had an opportunity to see it but I do have a copy here if anybody wants to see it. So that is on the table and that was one of the issues. There is a sheet there on the back that shows the number of males versus females appointed to boards. So I will just pass that on if you want to have a look at it.
Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: The only thing I wanted to add to that, Mr. Chairman, any one of these three candidates, I have no issue with them individually but what is happening is you will end up with eight men and one lady on the board. I guess the question I would ask is, were there any female applicants for this board that we know? How many applied? I think 26 applied, I believe, if memory serves me correctly. There was a fair number but it doesn't indicate if there were any women who applied. My thinking is, if it doesn't create any hardship for the board, there are still six on the board presently so the board is functional, unless we can get an answer today. If you can get an answer today that there were no women who applied who would certainly qualify, then I have no problems letting them go through but if we don't have an answer for that, maybe just put it in abeyance until the next meeting.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey.
[9:15 a.m.]
MS. JOAN MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I do have now in front of me the letter that was sent and thank you for that. It is disheartening to see the difference between the male and female numbers, appointments made to the non-adjudicative boards, 160 males as opposed to 66 females in the year 2003. That is just one number.
I'm just wondering, Mr. Chairman, if it would be - well, before I say this, I would like to say that I can't support these three applicants for the same reasons that I spoke of last month. I'm just wondering if it is appropriate at this time if I could move a motion to have one of the forms amended to reflect some of the questions we are asking here today. I will move a motion . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion on the floor now, so we have to deal with that motion, at least.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I'm just seeking a tad bit of clarification here. The member opposite for Halifax Needham indicated, if I heard correctly, that the board would be completely dominated by males and then I subsequently heard from the member for Cape Breton West that in fact there is, at present, one female on the board. So I would like some clarification as to whether there is a female on the board at the present time.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Yes, there is one woman.
MR. MACKINNON: Yes, it's in the book.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, well, that was my understanding but I understood earlier - maybe I misheard - so yes, perhaps we could say that there is nearly a domination of males on the board but in fact, at the present time, unfortunately, I will say as well, Mr. Chairman, that it is not the only board, whether it is a judicative-type board or not, that has perhaps maybe only one female. I am aware of another board that is in a similar situation and I just wanted to point out that, in fact, we are having some difficulty - or at least the screening committee is, it appears - with the gender balance that perhaps is required. So I just want some clarification on that.
MR. MACKINNON: On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, do we have any knowledge, of the 26 applicants, were there any women at all?
MR. CHAIRMAN: That we can't answer today. That would have to come from the screening . . .
MR. MACKINNON: Well, if it doesn't hold up the board, is there any problem just putting it in abeyance until the next meeting?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I think our role here today is to either appoint or not appoint, or approve or not approve.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, we do have the ability, as the member for Cape Breton West knows, to stand a motion. We have, in fact, done that in the past, seeking greater clarification and based on the numbers around the table, it might be perhaps - well, that aside, that in addition to the fact it would be the right thing to do, I would certainly support perhaps if the board is functioning - and it is a functioning entity - perhaps we could seek that type of information. I would have no difficulty with that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Does everybody agree?
MR. MACKINNON: Rather than defeat the motion, it's better to stand it, I think, in fairness.
MR. TAYLOR: I agree with the honourable member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, that motion will be stood until maybe our next meeting until we get further clarification on gender equity.
MR. TAYLOR: If I might, Mr. Chairman, we do have to put that to a vote as well, the motion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Massey, on the motion?
MS. MASSEY: Not on the motion, no. It's something else.
MR. MACKINNON: I move that the three Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation appointments be stood until the next meeting.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, before you move on to the next one, I'm just wondering if it would be appropriate to move a motion that Form "A" be amended so that it shows how many applicants were male and how many were female.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We could ask that question of Executive Council, I guess.
MS. MASSEY: I know that sometimes the forms don't always reflect the same information, I'm finding, and I'm just wondering, that might be something that would make it easier for us. We would know at that point, as soon as we got our booklet, that 26 people applied, five were, whatever, we would see the numbers upfront.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Did you make that a motion, Ms. Massey?
MS. MASSEY: I did make it a motion.
MR. TAYLOR: Just a question related to the motion, Mr. Chairman, the letter that you referenced earlier from Alison Scott, are all members in possession of that letter at the present time?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No.
MR. TAYLOR: I think what we should do, we can deal with this motion, I would suggest, but I'm wondering, before we go into any more appointments, if we shouldn't deal with that. I think it's so relevant to what we're discussing here now.
MR. MACKINNON: I don't think there would be much of an impact with the other appointments from my study of things.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Perhaps it will for one or two.
MR. TAYLOR: I just think where that was actually part of our last meeting and we have a response, I'm wondering because it's on the agenda, if we should deal with it. We could deal with it as a motion to suggest amending Form "A".
MR. CHAIRMAN: It was just pointed out by legal counsel that Form "A" is part of the rules and that we can only recommend to the House that they change.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, the amended motion would be that the Standing Committee on Human Resources is recommending that Form "A" be amended - not to put words in the honourable member's . . .
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Can I just intervene for a second around this because it is true that Form "A" does appear in the rules but it seems to me that there is latitude to break out the number of applicants. We often get on Form "A" the current composition, "Current Composition of Agency/Board/Commission" What those numbers tell us is, it says there are currently six. But on the form it says, "Where relevant identify gender, regional representation, etc. . . ." So that's already on the form but we're not actually getting the information in a detailed kind of way. Frankly, I don't see this motion as having any relevance to what's legislated. I think, in fact, it's just a clarification asking for the practice of the information that we're getting to be improved, it's not asking for a change in the form, it's asking for the information that we get to reflect, in fact, what this form talks about, identifies.
MS. MASSEY: Actually, Mr. Chairman, my motion does say I move that, "Form "A" be amended so that it shows how many applicants were male and how many were female." I think where it says, "Where relevant identify gender . . .", then that's appropriate that those numbers could just be put in there.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Can I show counsel the actual form that we get? This is the actual form that we get.
MR. GORDON HEBB: But this is talking about the current composition, it's not talking about the applicants.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Oh yes, right.
MR. HEBB: So the information she's looking for really has nothing to do with what's on the form, it's really related to other information that is not included on the form.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: It's probably this form that needs to be amended then, the Standing Committee on Human Resources Guidelines, is what needs to be amended. It is Question 10 of that form that says how many responses came from the advertisements. We get a total but we don't get it broken out. And this, I would suggest doesn't have any relevance for the rules.
MS. MASSEY: In that case, Mr. Chairman, I will remove my motion and if I could change that to reflect those last comments. I move that the Standing Committee on Human Resources Guidelines form - I don't know if you want to call it a form, it's actually two pages back to back - Question 10 be amended so that it does show how many of the applicants were male and how many were female.
MR. TAYLOR: Gender equity, allegedly has always been a concern when it comes to a board's membership. As was pointed out in the letter, Mr. Chairman, we received from Alison Scott, it stated in the biyearly bulk ad that the affirmative action policy of the provincial government is to be adhered to. I'm just wondering if we're not - I'm certainly in favour of gender equity in balance - as well concerned about ethnicity perhaps and visible minorities and so on and so forth. If we're adhering, and the Executive Council in the ad, a logical extension would be that that screening committee and the senior managers of the appropriate department would be adherent to the affirmative action, I wonder why we would be perhaps more concerned, or perceived to be more concerned, about this particular element of the affirmative action policy when, in fact, there are other considerations that may be every bit as valid.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think, too, in the letter we received from the Executive Council, the applications received for non-adjudicative boards, there were 431 males, 204 females. Out of those applications - that was 32 per cent female and 68 per cent male - 29 per cent were appointed female and 71 per cent male, so it's probably roughly a third of the appointments. To go along with the applications that came in, I wouldn't say it's fair, but anyway we have a motion on the floor.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, can I speak to the motion? I think Mr. Taylor raises a good point about other affirmative action categories and candidates. Perhaps what we should do, if the mover would be agreeable, is to amend the motion so that, in fact, we get the information that breaks out gender but also indicates other affirmative action candidates who are part of the application process.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable?
MS. MASSEY: Yes.
MR. MACKINNON: It would certainly add some clarity to Question 5, where it simply asks, "Does the ABC currently meet the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government?", and the answer is yes, we have no evidence to support or refute that point, so clarity certainly wouldn't hurt.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion on the floor.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
I guess we can move on to the Department of Education, Youth Advisory Council.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Youth Advisory Council I so move Maggie Burke, Luc MacInnis, Ms. Jamie Sealy, and Mat Whynott as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have all heard the motion.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The Department of Health. Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: To the Council of the College of Registered Nurses, I so move Reid Harrison and John McNeil as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have heard the motion.
Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I would like to perhaps, in the same way we deferred the appointments to the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, do the same thing. Both of these individuals clearly are upstanding citizens with interesting backgrounds but the information we got on this particular ABC indicates the college at this moment only has one person who is a male and we're appointing two more.
I found it quite confusing actually when I tried to read through the legislation to understand the composition of this particular ABC, because it indicated that the numbers of persons will be determined by bylaws, and we don't have the bylaws. So I couldn't understand how a council of one person, right now, could function, and what, precisely, this group does and what the composition actually is, without the bylaws. Just some additional information might be helpful here, as well as a better understanding of what the composition of that group actually is.
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. MACKINNON: We reviewed it, Mr. Chairman, the fact that there were only six who applied, and I couldn't find any tangible evidence of difficulty with it. I must say I have no problems with this. I'm not sure about my colleague. I presume we have no difficulty, given the dynamics of this, supporting this.
MR. TAYLOR: It does state, as far as I'm concerned, the objective and as well the mandate of the association. The board regulates the practice of nursing through, "the registration, licensing and professional-conduct processes . . .", and establishment and promotion of standards, and, in fact, it carries on with other duties. I'm not sure there is a concern from this side about the clarity of what is expected from the board. I'm prepared to support the names that came forward.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
District health authorities.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Health, for District Health Authority No. 1, South Shore District, I so move Don MacDonald as a member.
MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a comment on this. Don MacDonald, again, I'm not saying anything against this particular person. He looks like a good citizen with an interesting background. Again, this committee is currently made up of two females and nine males. If this person is put on the committee, it will then have two females and 10 males. I'm not going to reiterate everything that's been said before, but I would have to vote no on this one.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I did a fair degree of research on this particular issue, even to the point of communicating not only with the South Shore district board, but also the South Shore community board, the Lunenburg board. I must say that one thing that became evident is that it's very difficult to find volunteers at the community level for boards
such as this. The chairman of the community board indicated to me that the first time they put the ad out to have members of the community put their names forth, there was no response whatsoever. The second time, I believe it was four.
I had two concerns. One, the large percentage of retirees on the board. I think out of the entire board there are only two who are active in the marketplace, two doctors on the board. It's because in this community it's predominantly a retiree community at large. The lady who is chairman of the community board was very helpful in explaining all the reasons why they came up with Mr. MacDonald's name. I have no problem supporting this. I did have a little bit of a concern that New Germany and New Ross, up in the northern part of Lunenburg County, were not represented very well, but it is well represented on the community board. So in that sense there was a balancing factor.
As far as the gender equity, the majority of the members of the community board are female, so it balances off, one against the other. Actually, this board is well represented overall, and I have no problem supporting Mr. MacDonald.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would just add that the nominating committee of the respective district health authorities receive these applications and they, in fact, screen the names and subsequently send them off down the line, the Executive Council and on and on, and it finally comes here. So if the member has concerns about gender equity on the district health authorities, perhaps she would be inclined to send a missive off to the district health authorities, because it's their screening committee that actually advances most of these names that come forward. It's their screening committee.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I think the member makes a good point, and I think that's precisely why we have to send a message, as a committee, to the public and into the community that we are interested in seeing them more aggressively, more actively pursue the appointments of women and members of other affirmative action groups. This has to be something that we take, as a community, a lot more seriously. Just passively running ads hasn't worked for the affirmative action categories, in terms of appointments to the ABCs, so if we're going to really address it, then we need other people to participate in this.
As Mr. MacKinnon indicated, the community health board in this particular area is a board that has a large number of women already serving on it, yet the appointment that's being brought forward doesn't reflect that. I think this is a message that we really do need to relay back to not only this particular board but all of the boards, that we are interested in seeing this addressed at the . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor, final word.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would just say that if the member looks at the various district health authorities, she will find that on some there appears to be gender equity. In fact, the next board that we're about to deal with has, in fact, more females than males on it, the current composition at least. So I think we might be sticking our nose in someplace that it has no business being. When you start interfering with these volunteers - and they are only volunteers, they don't receive any stipend other than perhaps some expenses - I certainly have no interest in interfering with the business of volunteers out there in Nova Scotia communities and won't involve myself in it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. There is a motion on the floor.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Could I just briefly respond to that?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Briefly, because we have some people here from the community college waiting.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I don't want to get into a big match here, but the health boards serve a very important role in our province, in terms of the delivery of health care. I think that it is important that the boards not just reflect the regional composition that they cover, but it also is important that they reflect people from various walks of life. Women, certainly, are the largest consumers of health care in our province. I think it's important that the perspectives that people bring are adequately reflected in the management and the delivery of health care in our province. That's what these boards are about.
So they may be voluntary but that's not the point, it's the work that they do and the importance of the work they do and the importance of having perspectives reflected in the work they do that we're looking for here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There's a motion on the floor. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Health, for District Health Authority No. 4, Colchester-East Hants District, I so move Gerald Ritcey as a member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Health, Provincial Health Council, I so move Francis MacNeil as a member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
That concludes the ABCs for this morning.
We have with us some people from the Department of Education, Mr. Dennis Cochrane, Deputy Minister of Education; and also from the Nova Scotia Community College, Mr. Ray Ivany, President and Colin MacLean, Director of Organizational Development. Welcome, gentlemen. We are the Human Resources Committee and we look forward to your presentation. We will give you a bit of time to do your presentation, then we will get into a question-and-answer session afterwards.
MR. DENNIS COCHRANE: Mr. Chairman, certainly we appreciate the opportunity to be here. I have a few opening comments to make, and then from the community college, Mr. Ivany and Mr. MacLean will also make a presentation, and we will be open to questions that anyone may have at the end, or at any time you want during the presentation.
I am pleased to be here. It's the first time I've met or seen, actually, the member for Dartmouth East and the member for Halifax Clayton Park. We're sure that the information here will help them as they watch the Department of Education and the various things we're doing that we think are very positive for the students, young adults and adult students in the Province of Nova Scotia.
I guess to begin, to better understand the relationship between the department and the college, I would like to outline some of the processes that were put in place as a result of the Community College Act, which was passed in 1996. That Act transformed the community college from a government department to a board-governed institution. In general, the following apply: the Minister of Education approves new programs of study, the admissions policy, the tuition policy, and the schedule; and tables an annual report for the Nova Scotia Community College in the House. The Nova Scotia Community College is required by the legislation to provide an operational and organizational review every five years and that was recently submitted to the minister. That five-year review period was from 1996 to 2001. Finally, the minister may make payments to the college appropriated by the Legislature.
The operating grant of the Nova Scotia Community College was $53 million in 1999-2000; it went to $56 million in 2000-01; $62 million in 2001-02; $66 million in 2002-03; and currently, this year, the grant from the Province of Nova Scotia to the Nova Scotia Community College is a little more than $70 million.
The government supports the Nova Scotia Community College through a number of other changes. There were amendments to change the Nova Scotia Council on Higher Education in the year 2000, to the Nova Scotia Advisory Board on Colleges and Universities, and that's the first time the community college was put into the realm of post-secondary education. In other words, a mandate was given to the advisory board to give advice to the minister with regard to colleges, universities and student financial aid. I think this was a major transition because it began to get the public and government to think about the Nova Scotia Community College as an integral part of post-secondary education. That is a major change. I'm not sure that it necessarily pleased the universities, but I think it recognized that the Nova Scotia Community College is a viable educational institution, open to serving the educational needs of people at the post-secondary level in our province.
We have had a strong relationship and a number of partnerships with regard to the Department of Education and the Nova Scotia Community College. Many adult learning programs through the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning are provided by the community college; services for disabled students via rehabilitation services; and many initiatives in the Skills and Learning Branch are also intricately involved with the Nova Scotia Community College, to advance the provincial labour market strategy.
Levels III and IV of adult literacy are provided throughout the province by the community college, and I guess I would be remiss if I didn't indicate that today is Family Literacy Day in the Province of Nova Scotia, and the Nova Scotia Community College plays an integral role in making sure that Nova Scotians have the appropriate levels of literacy to open a number of doors, to hopefully ensure their success.
[9:45 a.m.]
We also have a long relationship with the Nova Scotia Community College, with regard to apprenticeship and training. Apprenticeship programs are extremely important in this province and most of those programs are delivered by the Nova Scotia Community College, in a very good relationship among government, community college, and labour in this province.
In March 2003, the provincial government made a landmark investment in the Nova Scotia Community College by announcing a $123 million capital program in a multi-year plan, to further the vision of creating a national calibre college for Nova Scotians. Of this amount, $38 million is being used for capital renovation in rural areas of the province, $56 million for the current phase of capital development in metro Halifax, and a $29 million
investment for further development in metro in future years. Operating costs will begin to escalate in 2004-05, as a result of the development initiative. The increase will start at a proposed $1.1 million this year, up to a total increase of $10.3 million by 2009-10.
In making this investment the government recognizes the imbalance that exists in our province between seats at the university level and seats at the community college level. That imbalance is significant and we're trying to make a change in that over a period of time. The capital initiative, along with its associated operating costs, will add 2,500 seats to the capacity of the community college system in the Province of Nova Scotia.
The government views the college as the main vehicle for providing relevant training that meets current and future labour market demands. Obviously, there is a concern that post-secondary education at the college level is affordable and supports the needs of a diverse audience of students.
I think the graduate survey that is done by the community college shows that the investment by this government and previous governments has begun to show the rewards that we're looking for. The survey of 4,322 Nova Scotia Community College graduates of 2001 notes the employment rate of graduates was 88 per cent, with an average wage of $23,044. So, that's a pretty significant, I think, result of that graduate survey showing that 88 per cent have found work in their field and are beginning to earn a reasonable wage as entry-level participants in the labour market.
Obviously, we have some concern about the coming wave of retirements in many of our occupations. That combined with a declining population in some of the Nova Scotia communities, and growth in others, is obviously a concern, I suspect, of the Human Resources Committee. Those factors will necessitate careful future programs and services planning by the Nova Scotia Community College and Education, to make sure that we are going to be able to meet the labour market demands that are going to present themselves in the various sectors in the Province of Nova Scotia.
It has been, not a long relationship, but a good relationship as far as the department and the Nova Scotia Community College is concerned. There have been significant items of progress made but there is much left to be done. It is certainly a relationship that we're anxious to see continue on a very positive note. The growth plan for the community college is a major step forward, not just for the community college but also a major step forward in meeting the educational needs of Nova Scotians, and enabling us to meet some of those labour market demands that are going to be very evident in future years. It is always too late after you recognize there's a shortage. You have to identify it first and get ahead of the curve so when the shortage does actually exist, there are trained people there to do those jobs. Certainly, the community college already has a track record in that field and we don't anticipate any change in their success in that regard.
So that's the opening from the department and I will now introduce, although he has already been introduced by the chairman, Ray Ivany, who is the President of the Nova Scotia Community College and Colin MacLean, who is the Director of Organizational Development at the community college. Ray.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ivany.
MR. RAY IVANY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to be with the committee. As Deputy Minister Cochrane noted, the relationship between the province and the Nova Scotia Community College is a close and integral relationship. I will start with a bit of history here and it will show you, I think, why that is the case and why it needs to be the case.
Nova Scotia actually was the last province in Canada to formally establish a community college and that is an important fact - Dennis alluded to it and I will come back to it several times - in setting the challenge that we believe we have in front of us in developing the college. I think many people in the room will recall the 1988 White Paper that said, essentially, we are going to take the regional vocational high schools and the technical institutes that existed in the province and combine them under the rubric of a community college.
That started us along the way. Interestingly, it was the 1993 Auditor General's Report that actually formed a bit of a catalyst for the creation of the college. The Auditor General, in that report, pointed out, and they were largely drawing on the experience of other jurisdictions, that if you want a modern community college, in terms of responsiveness to the labour market needs, a nimbleness in decision making, you really need to set it up with a board of governors, much like other post-secondary structures. That began a process that culminated in the proclamation of the Community Colleges Act in 1996. As the deputy minister pointed out, that is when the college that was an entity inside government came out to be board governed with an Act that prescribes the connecting points between the college and the Department of Education, the minister and government broadly.
In 1999, the college established its first strategic plan. Again, it couldn't happen until the board governance was established. We did a large-scale consultation with Nova Scotians, inside the college and actually in communities. What we were searching for was that Nova Scotia definition of what they wanted in a community college. We knew, having been established later than those other jurisdictions, we could look at their experience, hopefully learn from it, but we absolutely wanted to find a way to make it the right response for Nova Scotia. That was what we were searching for in that planning process.
This slide, which we've updated to 2003, and I think the members are very familiar with, I included because it sets a context that is important in defining that kind of college that Nova Scotia needs. This tells an important tale of, if you will, the knowledge economy alive
and well and living in Nova Scotia. The light blue bars indicate the net number of jobs having been created in this province from 1992-2003 for people with some post-secondary education. If you consider that as kind of a proxy for high-level skills and knowledge, the credential is not as important, actually, as what people know and what they know how to do.
The dark blue line, unfortunately - and by the way Nova Scotia is no different than any other province in Canada in this regard - is net jobs lost for people without post-secondary education. We all know, in our communities, we've seen that, whether it's a particular industry that dies away and individuals having a difficult time making a transition from that industry to other employment. This tells the tale on an aggregate basis across the province.
This shaped, hugely, how we saw the kind of college that Nova Scotia required. When you do a strategic plan, I guess, oftentimes you think of it in a way of almost defining a path for the future. We took a bigger leap than that, and we changed the mission statement of the institution at the time of the strategic plan. We're very proud of the mission, "Building Nova Scotia's economy and quality of life through education and innovation." Perhaps one of the most fascinating things about that mission is that we freely admit that we alone can't achieve that mission statement, absolutely not. I think that's one of the reasons why we adopted it.
Again, as the deputy pointed out, this underscores a college that sees itself outside its own walls in partnership with government, with industry, with labour, with communities, and if you think about it, again in that search for a Nova Scotian community college, uniquely defined by the challenges facing our province, it also evokes the images of Coady and Tompkins in the sense of using an educational institution as a development vehicle. We did that quite consciously.
So let's take a look back to 1996, just to again try to draw on the same frame of reference in time. Our enrolment at that time was about 6,600 students, a little better than that; graduate employment rate at 73 per cent. We, at that time, became the employer of the staff and faculty who had previously been government employees. To put it rather kindly, we were at the very rudimentary stages of trying to define basic services in the institution that didn't exist, because of the history that I described earlier. So library, student services, information technology, really on the day the Act was proclaimed in 1996, we were starting, in many cases, from if not a clean sheet of a paper, then bare bones.
The first thing that was undertaken was a program renewal process. Again, I think all members are aware, one of the fundamental roles of colleges is to have a vibrant renewal process for programs. As the deputy indicated, and there is arts and science in this, it is to try to make those judgment calls on the development of new areas in the economy and have programs available so Nova Scotians have the skills when those opportunities exist.
As you can see, we've had a lot of change in our programs. We just picked this one up, post the strategic plan in 1998-99, 38 new programs. We've had a major move in the college to move to two-year diploma programs, which are the norm across Canada and the U.S., in colleges. So 17 new two-year programs and 65 program suspensions. We do this in partnership with the labour market development data that comes from the Province of Nova Scotia, as well as program advisory committees made up of industry and employers in each of the program areas. So this is a constant renewal process inside the institution.
Let's take a look at 2004. Our enrolment is up to 8,463, a 21 per cent increase since that data in 1996. We're very pleased with that, and I will come back to some of the highlights of where we've had increases. We've also seen a significant change in the way that our programs are organized in academic schools. We created a school of business, health and human services, applied arts and new media, and trades and technology to focus on the quality of our programming, essentially. So we're very pleased. Our employment rate since 1996 is up by 15 per cent to 88 per cent, 78 per cent in related jobs, and that's up 9 per cent as well. The last statistic, which we don't have a comparator to in 1996 because we weren't asking the question in the graduate follow-up survey, but one that we're really pleased about, 95 per cent are living and working in Nova Scotia. Again, community colleges tend to be deeply rooted in community, and individuals are often looking at a job in that area when they take a particular program.
I will just give you these highlights, and I realize we have some time constraints, but I will try to characterize that notion of defining the kind of college that Nova Scotians told us they wanted and needed, and what has been a dramatic increase in the number of private sector partnerships. We have a business development unit in the college that is specifically charged with making sure that we have the kinds of connections with individual industries and the industry sector. The sector councils, for instance, that have been established through HRDC, now HRSD, in the federal government, we work closely with them as well. Some great partnerships here that underscore the private sector in Nova Scotia looking forward - I'm looking at Dexter there in particular and Stora Enso - which really said, we can't get our business to where we want it to be without a partnership to develop new skills.
So we've used some creative models to do that. One that the deputy alluded to that I really want to underscore for the committee, because I think it's a fundamental change in our province and a positive change, is the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning, funded jointly with the province and through their arrangement with the federal government as well. We had a challenge, in terms of access to the college, particularly for those individuals who had some literacy needs and had some needs completing the secondary school level credentials.
We've increased our capacity in that regard significantly over the past two to three years, for the School for Adult Learning. At last count, we were between 1,300 and 1,400 students studying in the School for Adult Learning, and these are adults who are pursuing the
new credential, the Nova Scotia High School Diploma for Adults and I guess three years ago we were probably somewhere in the 300 to 400 range, so that's how significant the increase has been. This is a way into post-secondary education for many adult Nova Scotians and again, if we think back to the slide of jobs gained and jobs lost, very clearly, one of the main pathways of getting from the jobs-lost to the jobs-gained side of the equation is post-secondary education.
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College prep is our primary partnership with the public school system in Nova Scotia. We have signed memoranda of understanding with the school boards in the province and this is to try to have young Nova Scotians see a viable end point in high school being the kinds of occupations that college prepares people for. This has been used in the U.S.A. extensively over the past 20 years and quite frankly, it works. When you have an opportunity for somebody in Grade 10 to see a way of completing high school that prepares them for a particular career, their motivation to complete tends to improve.
The applied research area is another one that I wanted to highlight because it is relatively new for colleges across Canada and we've been one of the more active colleges. We have about $11 million of activity underway now and it's an important piece, again, on the economic development side because the role colleges play in R and D is at the commercialization stage. The more practical, hands-on model that characterizes our academic programs also extends to our approaches around applied research. The area that has been most active, and again, members would know this by reputation, is our Centre of Geographic Sciences in Lawrencetown, they have long had an internationally known research capacity.
Disability services, this may be lesser known. I think we are well aware that many individuals moving through the public school system that have had a disability that was accommodated through their public school careers, are now looking to post-secondary educational institutions to do the same thing. Again, this is an area where we have had a significant increase in the number of students and it's another partnership, actually, with the provincial government, both Education and other departments within government. I think we have about 530 students currently, with declared disabilities, that are in the college today.
Another highlight, we believe, has been the fiscal stewardship of the college. We have had balanced budgets since we have come into existence in 1996 and have had unqualified audit statements from our auditors. Our Board of Governors has a nationally-recognized governance model, they have worked very hard on fulfilling their fiduciary responsibilities, and the governance model has drawn some interest from elsewhere in the country.
Another piece in this has been, again, in reaching out beyond our walls, the link with the Regional Development Authority. I extend this a bit further, we are here with the Department of Education but one of the things that has resulted from our partnership with the Department of Education has been a greater connectivity with other government departments. If you think of the economic development strategy of the province, health reform, community services reform, every one of those documents includes reference to the role of the college. We see that very much as the kind of college we want to be and we think, again, in a relatively small province, that kind of co-operation is going to pay significant benefits.
The last is the development project, itself, the deputy made reference to it. This is the opportunity for us - we said that we were the last province in - to really play catch-up and we hope beyond catch-up, to put us in a leadership position in the country in terms of, particularly, the quality of our facilities.
The last slide is on the development project, itself, it includes improvements to all of our campuses, although there are more significant projects like Kingstec, Pictou, Truro and the Strait area and then the metro campus at the Nova Scotia Hospital lands, we are still in the design phase for that construction.
I think, Mr. Chairman, I will stop at this point, there is a summary slide here that people can go to if they want to refer to any specific area. Again, Mr. MacLean our Director of Organizational Development and former Secretary to the Board of Governors is here, should there be any questions he can address. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will now go to questions by members.
Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Ivany. I would just like to say thank you very much for coming in and making the presentation. As we spoke of, when you first got here this morning, I did go to the Akerley Campus when it was a vocational school. I certainly enjoyed my time there and it was time well spent, I think. I think your plans for the future look bright and I certainly wish you all the best in the coming years ahead, it looks like you have a great footstep there and you are going to move forward in leaps and bounds, I think.
MR. IVANY: Thank you very much for the comment. I am always pleased to run into a happy alumnus. Interestingly, I expect you may be one of the early alumni of the college that has ended up being in the Legislature, so that's another sign, I guess, of the progress of the institution. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. O'DONNELL: I noticed on your slide where you said enrolments have increased by 21 per cent and I heard the deputy minister say each year funding has been increased with the Nova Scotia Community College. I wonder what the long-range plan for small community colleges, such as Shelburne, is? Does that continue to grow or is that to phase out and move to the larger centres?
MR. COCHRANE: No, actually, one of the elements of the growth plan was there would be an increase in the number of seats in metro, but also a corresponding increase in the number of seats elsewhere in the province. Four major campuses were getting the bulk of the money spent in the regions but all of the campuses are having some work done, with regard to upgrading their facilities to keep them competitive and to keep them as attractive places to go. When the growth plan was developed, it really was designed to continue to keep the community college very present in all parts of the province. Although there is an increase in the number of seats in metro, there is, I think, of the 2,500, 1,500 were going to the regions and 1,000 to metro, and that was by design to make sure it was a provincial campus.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. MACKINNON: My first question is to Mr. Ivany. How many are on a waiting list to get into community colleges?
MR. IVANY: It varies significantly by program.
MR. MACKINNON: Province-wide?
MR. IVANY: Well, province-wide, last year we were at 8,463 and our application numbers last year, I think, were in the 16,000 to 17,000 range.
MR. MACKINNON: So you're only taking about 50 per cent of all the students that apply.
MR. IVANY: Yes, in terms of total applicants versus spaces. That kind of filters down through a funnel in terms of qualified applicants, et cetera, and also the main variable for us in matching the supply - and thus as the deputy indicated, the investment to increase capacity - is specific program in specific location and demand. In other words, you may apply for a program at one campus - and we do a much better job of this now - and there is an opening in that program but at another campus. The challenge is trying to get that match appropriate.
MR. MACKINNON: You indicated that you work closely with HRDC. I know on numerous occasions I have had to assist constituents in securing funding from HRDC to be able to go to community college. Sometimes HRDC will say, we don't fund that particular program, and it raised a very important policy question that I was really quite taken aback
on. They do not track the number of applicants that apply for assistance when trying to get into a community college program. So essentially, they can't tell me how many individuals apply for cosmetology or how many apply for aquaculture or whatever. They only track the number of individuals who have been accepted.
The question I ask is, given your relationship with HRDC, how are you able to accurately measure whether you're in tune with the demand from the community at large throughout the province, and being contemporary in the programs that you're offering, if this agency, which is a very important agency and partner to community college programs, does not track the issue of supply and demand, for lack of a better term?
MR. IVANY: The deputy may have a comment on this, because we have sort of a tripartite relationship with both the province and HRDC. On the specific issue, Mr. MacKinnon, I would like to explore that in some discussion with HRDC because we see their clients when they've made their decisions on the kind of issue you're alluding to, in terms of an individual client, a program and whether they're willing to apply support. Then, of course, we're trying to match them into programs where we have capacity. The process of what they get in their applicant pool, we're not privy to. I don't know if the province is or not.
MR. COCHRANE: We negotiate, on behalf of the Nova Scotia Community College, the skills development agreement with HRDC. They purchase a certain number of seats at the community college, something in the area of $10 million worth. I think the last agreement was 950 seats, this year it's 1,050, or whatever. The president is correct, we don't necessarily know who has approached them for placement, we just know that this amount of money buys this many seats from HRDC. It's been a good relationship in the sense that they fill up a lot of seats at the community college and pay good money, and it does meet the needs of a number of people, but I have heard other concerns expressed about clients going to HRDC and where they're placed and whether or not they're eligible for actually taking the seats.
MR. MACKINNON: I have other questions, but I know everybody wants an opportunity and, Mr. Chairman, I can come back.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Thank you very much for coming here this morning. I think it's always good to talk about education. Certainly I know people who have graduated from your program, and you're doing a very fine job, I would like to say. They enjoy their time, and they go on to make important contributions in their fields.
My questions pertain to the following, you indicated that you have partnerships with the private sector, but I'm wondering about partnerships with the public sector, specifically with respect to health care. You did make reference to working closely with other
departments, the Departments of Health and Community Services. Right now in Nova Scotia we're experiencing a significant shortage in home care. I note that you have a continuing care program. I'm wondering about the capacity of that program, and what coordination is being done between the college and the Department of Health right now to attempt to address the shortages in the home care field. Also, I note you have practical nursing programs. Certainly in the long-term care sector, this is an ongoing concern, about how to maintain an active labour force to provide those services.
MR. IVANY: Ms. MacDonald, to underscore the partnership with the department - again I expect the deputy will want to make a comment as well - there are two points I would like to make first. On the continuing care area, that's an area where we've increased capacity in the past number of years, the same thing with licensed practical nursing. We've done so in consultation not only with the Department of Health but also the licensing bodies for those particular programs. For instance, they've asked us, and we have in the past three years, offered a program in one geographic area of the province because there are specific shortages there. Then that program may actually move to another geographic area in a subsequent year.
I think the partnerships are robust. One of the things that will kick in as we move through this development phase that was announced last year will give us more capacity to increase in those key areas. The other comment I wanted to make, because again it underscores this historical aspect of the development of a college in the province, typically in other jurisdictions you see a range of health and allied health programs in colleges. In Nova Scotia, we have what would be regarded as a minimal number of those programs. Again, simply as an artifact of our history, because the college was not created when the need was there in that health sector, those programs ended up being enshrined elsewhere. I think this is an area where the deputy would want to comment.
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We've had discussions now with both the Department of Education and the Department of Health to say, maybe in some of these areas we need to look at models where you have a two-year program in the college, with an exit into the labour market in the health care field, and then an articulation arrangement with the university where you could complete the baccalaureate. So that which is more the normative elsewhere in the country, is an area which I think has the greatest potential for us in the future.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: That was sort of my next question, whether or not the work to develop a more seamless process, partnering with the universities, is a part of the planning for what it is that you're doing. Maybe Mr. Cochrane can respond to that.
MR. COCHRANE: The Atlantic Deputies of Health and Education now meet probably three times a year to take a look at the educational needs of people who serve in the health care field. One of the concerns that we have is, the term is called, credential creep. We
want to make sure that every course for people getting into health care is not necessarily a four- or five- or six-year university course, but they would have the opportunity to enter at the community college level, and then have an articulated program by which they will get credit of a much greater magnitude than they're currently getting for some of the courses at the community college for several reasons.
One, we have need for health care professionals. From the taxpayers' point of view, we pay three times. We pay if it's a four-year seat, we pay for four years at whatever institution. We also provide the student loan support for it, and since most of these people work in the public sector, we also pay the wages. So what we're trying to do is to make sure we get qualified health care professionals but on a continuum, that they could start working after two years at the community college level, with an articulated program that they would then be able to go on to university to get a degree, and then obviously a higher level of income.
It's been a major concern. What we want to do, and I think the growth plan for the community college and the philosophy the community college is putting forward is helping. Right now I know there's a debate that occupational therapists have to have a master's degree to practise in the Province of Nova Scotia, someone wants that, and we're saying, whoa, there may be a need for a certain number of people in that field at the master's level, but for much of the kind of advice and the kind of work that they're doing in our health care system you don't necessarily need that.
There is an Atlantic group. We've also formed the Atlantic Health Human Resource Council, which now looks at all the requests for courses at that post-secondary level in health care before it goes to the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission, so that we're able to say yes or no before it goes, to make sure that there is that balance at the diploma level versus the degree level.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I do have other questions, but I would like to share . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you to our presenters. I just had a question, I guess it's more of a concern on behalf of young people with their Grade 12. Some have complained, quite a number, that the admittance standards, for example, have evolved to the point where pretty much if you're not an honours Grade 12, it's very difficult to get into the NSCC. Have you had some concerns passed your way along those lines?
MR. COCHRANE: Only a few. Ray and I, in fact, just talked about this the other day. The pendulum has swung perhaps too far. We will never go back to vocational options in the basement of a school beside the furnace room with 60 welding booths lined with asbestos. We are probably never going to go back there, much to the chagrin of some people. However, we do recognize that there are a number of students who would benefit from more hands-on educational experiences in high school. We're losing some of these students.
But what we're looking at doing right now, we're doing an inventory of the programs we have across the province. For example, Memorial actually in Sydney Mines has a very extensive, comprehensive program with regard to vocational options. The schools throughout Chignecto-Central have what they call the OPP program. We have a mish-mash across the province. We're doing an inventory of those now. Plus, we have a number of programs that are pieces of programs.
What we're trying to do is focus on these students who may be having some difficulty, trying to provide more hands-on opportunity, more likely through co-op ed and work experience, so that then we would recognize the credits that they get for high school graduation, begin to recognize the credits they get for apprenticeship, and for acceptance into the Nova Scotia Community College. We've just started this, and we have a committee working on it now in the public school system. We're now looking at expanding that committee to involve the Nova Scotia Community College, the private career colleges, the Department of Education and the school boards to make sure that that group of students are receiving the kind of program they need to get them through high school, but also then getting recognition so that they're able to enter into post-secondary.
It's a tender balance because there are people out there who will want it to go back to what it used to be and some of what it used to be may be good, but at the same time, we were also dead-ending some students way too soon. What we are trying to do is find what kind of program they need - and I think we have a pretty good idea of that - to get them into the community college and with the growth plan of the community college, there will be seats waiting for them when they get there.
MR. IVANY: Mr. Taylor, if I could, and I appreciate the question. Yes, we have heard that but I think it's really important to clarify for the committee that that is not the case in the material we have circulated to you. Our admission requirement is a Grade 12 or equivalent, so GED completion, the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning adult high school diploma. I think where that impression has been created has been the capacity crunch that we faced. In other words, you could be applying to the college in a program that was in high demand and not get admitted and feel, to some degree, that maybe that was because you didn't have a particular grade point average in high school. Often it was a match between the number of seats available and the applicant pool for the particular program.
I think that one of the major benefits of the development project for the college and for the province, is that when we take some of the pressure off that capacity crunch, those individuals are going to be admitted because there is going to be more space for them. On the point of acceptance, relative to their high school completion, as I indicated, in the past number of years we've actually increased our capacity to take a student who didn't have high school completion at all and bring them into the School for Adult Learning, get them to the completion of their high school diploma while at the college and then on into a program, but it absolutely is.
I think, as the college was established - again, perhaps the lateness is a bit of the issue here as well - all of a sudden you went from having the programs delivered within the regional vocational high school structures, to being delivered within a college. There is no question that impression does exist.
MR. TAYLOR: I wasn't zeroing in, as you did, on the adult learning, I realize that is more of a specialized program, so to speak. I'm speaking about those out there with a Grade 12 certificate that, for example, might want to get into carpentry, might want to get into plumbing and heating, electronics. Many have complained, like I said earlier - and perhaps it has more to do with capacity - that it seems as if the demand is exceeding the ability to supply. I would like to think that NSCC would maybe revisit just how our young people are being admitted to the community college system. I know there's a technical side to carpentry, plumbing and heating, et cetera, but as well, there is certainly a very practical side. Many of the graduates of the vocational schools are fine tradespeople. It appears that you are cognizant that at least there is a concern out there and I'm very pleased that you're looking into it.
MR. IVANY: Absolutely. That's one that we do monitor constantly and it's one, over time, as we are sitting here today, believing that the development initiative alleviating some of the capacity challenges will make that a lesser issue. Again, on the key point that you raised, Mr. Taylor, on a Grade 12 graduate, are they eligible? The answer to that is, yes, and then the other issues of which program in which location and whether or not there is enough capacity, that's what kicks in at that point.
MR. COCHRANE: I think a big part of that is we have to craft the programs in the public school system to make sure some of these students, who are leaving in Grade 9 or Grade 10, are kept into the system so they get the Grade 12 requirement to get into the community college. I don't think we, as a society, can say how important it is to finish high school and then have a whole bunch of opportunities for people who don't. I think what we have to do is make sure that we get everyone in the system to that standard by challenging them; challenge for credit, co-op ed, work experience, all those things. Everyone is not meant to do three levels of math and three levels of science and quite frankly, I accept that. What we have to find is a way for those students who have that hands-on ability, who have the
ability to work in a more practical program, that we give them an opportunity and they don't leave our system before they have a chance to access the community college.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. MACKINNON: I noticed in your presentation you indicated about 95 per cent of the graduates stay in Nova Scotia to live. How does that compare to universities? It is my understanding there is considerable concern about the . . .
MR. COCHRANE: That's very high. What you must remember - and the exact percentage is probably - around 25 per cent of the students in our universities aren't from Nova Scotia to start with. A good number of those, interestingly enough, stay here but automatically a number are coming into our province for one reason or another in the post-secondary system and leaving, but 95 per cent would be extremely high and very positive. I could find out the number for you, sir, if you want. We don't do graduate surveys the same way at the university level, which probably will be the subject of tomorrow's Public Accounts Committee presentation, but certainly it's not near that, but by design it's probably not near that.
MR. COLIN MACLEAN: If I might just add, if I could comment on the college, 95 per cent is a growing trend for us, as well. If you couple that with some of the other statistics that Mr. Ivany showed in the presentation, specifically the employment rate, but the employment related to the jobs that they're in, their studies relate to the jobs. Those are terrific markers for us and we're getting that nice match with the labour market, people are actually finding jobs and finding them in Nova Scotia. It is a good indicator for us, we use a graduate follow-up survey to help with our program renewal, so we can speak on it from that side.
MR. MACKINNON: Just on that, perhaps on a future day you could lay out a plan as to how you are going to deal with the backlog, given the fact - as Mr. Taylor has indicated - the concern about entrance where we have a 50 per cent waiting list; almost 8,000 is a high number. I will just leave that with you.
I was looking on Page 374 of the Public Accounts and I was looking at the unfunded liability and the actuarial report for the community colleges and I noticed it is very high, it's about 60 per cent. What is your plan to deal with that? It says here that the unfunded liability is $46.3 million out of a total value of about $74 million, that's about 60 per cent.
MR. MACLEAN: I'm just surmising here, that's probably our pension fund. Our employees are with the Public Service Superannuation Plan, which is administered through the . . .
MR. MACKINNON: It sounds to me as a high unfunded . . .
MR. COCHRANE: And tomorrow at the Public Accounts Committee, some of the questions will be with regard to the university funds. I think everyone in their pension fund, whether it's public or private, has gone through a rather depressing devaluation of what we have had. At any point in time you are going to find a certain amount and when those evaluations were done, certainly the market wasn't good. I think if you did it in two year's time you would see a significant improvement. But we have a concern and we obviously aren't going to be able to infuse a whole bunch of money but all of these funds have employer and employee contributions and certain benefits that go into the actuarial evaluation.
We are certainly going to watch very carefully and very closely, whether we have to increase our contributions on behalf of the employer or the employees, or we have to look at the kinds of benefits that are provided. I don't think people should get overly panicked at this point because if you look at your own RRSP portfolio you probably found some bad news in the last couple of years.
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MR. MACKINNON: I haven't looked at it since . . .
MR. COCHRANE: And that's probably the best way to deal with it. Unfortunately, we didn't have that luxury when someone looked at ours. There has been significant improvement but we are watching that very carefully and every time we sit down in negotiation, it's a discussion on how viable the plan is and what we're going to do and who's going to contribute what.
MR. MACKINNON: I raise that because the unfunded liability in the community college system is growing, it's not shrinking and at some point there is going to be a breaking point. I'm getting a little concerned that it is getting closer and closer to what happened with WCB, it was at a crisis situation, and that's in no way to detract from the excellent work and all the programs and so on. I think Mr. Ivany has brought the community college program a long way under his tenure and I would like to congratulate him for that, but this is a very concerning issue. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Just a couple of questions, if I could. On the existing partnerships that you do have, generally - I'm not sure if it's privileged information when I say generally - with EnCana, could you just explain to the committee the structure of such an arrangement?
MR. IVANY: Certainly, Mr. Taylor. EnCana, in partnership actually with Ocean Rig and Irving - I guess this dates back probably about three years ago - as they were planning their projects they made a decision that they wanted to have Nova Scotians with the skills
they were going to need in their drilling program and others - those three companies. What they did was made an investment in the college of $2.25 million in total, for the development, largely around the equipment, in order to deliver the programs that supplied these skills that they needed. That is a common type of partnership that we would engage in, where a private sector entity, knowing they need programs developed in a particular area, make an investment in the programs. This allows us to have our students get experience with state-of-the-art equipment, and also meets the need that is currently there in that particular industry sector.
We also use Dexter as an example and that one is even a bit more innovative on the standpoint of the employer. Dexter had done an analysis that said - they were looking five-plus years out - that in order to have the people they needed in the heavy equipment industry, they weren't going to leave it to chance. They said, we are going to select people to go through a program two years in length, a program that didn't just provide the basic skills, and we are seeing that more and more because companies are realizing it is a major investment in an individual, that these are the folks they want to see progress through supervisory levels, et cetera. So it's not just the technical content, you're seeing business skills, you're seeing communication skills, et cetera, in that program. Their partnership with us was one where the students were selected, they went through the program and are guaranteed employment.
MR. TAYLOR: Selected by whom?
MR. IVANY: Selected by Dexter because they employed those students during their work terms, then they guaranteed them employment and if they stay with Dexter for a period of time, there's a rebate against their tuition. We are seeing more and more of those kinds of partnerships on an industry-specific basis. Sometimes we do it with the entire industry association; I mention the sector councils that have been established, where if there is a change in technology, whether it be in the home-building business or whatever, we have a way of taking that information and feeding it directly into the design of the programs. Again, we have a match between what's happening with the industry in the province and the kind of training and education that's occurring in the program.
MR. TAYLOR: Obviously there would be more potential out there to perhaps consummate some further partnerships. I note that Stora Enso, for example, has an arrangement. Is DND a little bit exclusive compared to others or is it . . .
MR. IVANY: Again, Mr. Taylor, the one with DND - and we're still in the process of fully developing it - is an interesting one that will face other sectors in the province. It's the demography, they're looking at significant numbers of retirements, particularly in their skilled trades area. They are trying to look ahead and we're partnering with them so that they can have that program essentially delivered to the individuals who will replace the retirements. Getting the timing of that right is what we are in discussion with them on right
now. That issue of an aging labour force generally, we, like the rest of Canada, face that in a significant way.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Maureen MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I want to ask you a bit more about the plans for the metro campus. You indicated an architect has been secured for the Nova Scotia Hospital site. When is that projected, when do you think that site will be opened and what happens to the other campuses? Do we know what's going to happen to the Leeds Street facility, for example, which is in my constituency?
MR. IVANY: Thank you, Ms. MacDonald. The current plan is that we would break ground on the Nova Scotia Hospital land site in August or September 2004. The likely date for us to have the first phase completed and operational is likely January 2007, the second term in 2007; it is a major project and will take us a significant period of time. The timing and the work relative to our other campuses is underway in a pretty intensive fashion right now.
The one thing we do know, of course, with the new high school construction - and again, we are working with the department on this - is that our Bell Road site will close, we will no longer be there and then we will have kind of a musical chairs of program shifts to both the Leeds Street campus and the Akerley Campus and potentially some other space during the period, and we hope it's only going to be one academic year while we're making the transition over to the new site.
Leeds likely will continue well past that date because there needs to be a second phase of construction on the hospital lands before we could contemplate. As you know, we have some specialized facilities, the Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing Centre, et cetera, that we're not going to be able to easily replicate elsewhere. That site and Akerley will continue to operate; in fact, we're making an investment in Akerley right now in the culinary area and welding area, so those programs will continue to be delivered there.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Do you offer night and weekend programs?
MR. IVANY: Yes.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: And at different campuses around the province?
MR. IVANY: Yes and again, to underscore a theme that we have touched on several times through the meeting, appropriately, that menu of programs, when and where and what, would be developed very intensively within that local community. The kinds of programs we would offer in the evening in Pictou, for instance, may be very different than the slate of programs we deliver in Yarmouth.
MR. MACLEAN: One of the trends that we are actually seeing on programs is a growth in the number of credit opportunities. The biggest amount of education used to be in the metro area and it was generally continuing education of a general interest, but we have seen a big trend with people wanting to access education that they can take on a part-time basis, that they can then translate into one of our diploma programs. The second piece is that we have begun to offer it around the province, based on local needs, so it really is a growing area and it speaks to the access people want for education.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: The last question I have then is around call centres. Do you train call centre workers and if so, what's the name of that program? Is it reflected here or is it a different intake process? How does that work?
MR. IVANY: I think right now, all of the work we do with call centres is on a customized training basis, so it's not in our core academic programs, we do it on a contract basis, relative to their particular need. That varies incredibly by regions of the province and who the operator of the site is, so we don't offer it as a core academic program, it's on a customized basis.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: Just a couple of questions, and it's a pleasure to see all of you today and I'm happy to have had this presentation. I'm actually speaking at lunch to the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters and I know apprenticeship is one of their key policy areas and I'm hoping you're working closely with them, too. On your board - I notice it's quite a large board - do you have specific numbers that are allocated to certain industry groups like that, that might identify members to serve?
MR. MACLEAN: We approach the board much the same way as I heard the discussion this morning, we look at geographic interest, because we have a province-wide institution, Yarmouth to Sydney. We look at industry sectors, public, not-for-profit, private sectors and we try to have them mirror where our programs, where our emphasis is. So we do have manufacturers and members from the manufacturing association on our board as well as we do from other community interest groups and other sectors.
MS. WHALEN: Well, that is good to hear because I do think that all of those groups have a lot to contribute and I think one of the big successes that you have pointed to are the kind of partnerships you have been able to forge right across the province and with many diverse groups. So all the stakeholders are at the table with you and I think that is really important.
On the percentage of public funding at the college, I am wondering how that percentage works out. We have heard the university figures quoted before about how much is tuition and how much is public money. I'm assuming those are essentially the two sources of revenue, right? Can you give me a breakdown on that?
MR. IVANY: Yes, Ms. Whalen. We are at about 60 per cent in terms of public funding. Our tuition last year was about 13 per cent of total operating budget. We have a third stream that is a major component of our operating budget and that is the customized training, these partnerships that we are talking about again. We operate those on the basis of fee for service. It's a way of augmenting the public support to the college and again quite common within colleges across the country. So that is another significant stream.
We have diversified to some degree. I indicated the applied research activity, et cetera; so we didn't have that all five years ago and now have a small stream of revenue. Again, what we are trying to do - and this again underscores the partnership with the department - is we are trying to use the public support to build the platform of a national calibre college and then we are trying to be entrepreneurial in a lot of our other activity to make up the balance.
MS. WHALEN: A question about your students then, as they graduate. Have you any figures on their student debt load that they graduate with? Again, we hear a lot about the difficulty of students accessing university education. I think colleges are more accessible but I would just like to get a relative sense.
MR. MACLEAN: They are more accessible. Our debt load is increasing but I honestly don't know the figures currently. I know that the debt load, I think generally for post-secondary education is about $20,000-some-odd.
MR. IVANY: For a four-year program.
MR. MACLEAN: The most recent figure that I recall for the college may be in around the $10,000 to $12,000 figure but I would have to go back and check.
MS. WHALEN: Okay. A further question, if I can continue a few more, do you have any links directly to Community Services? I am thinking particularly of your program for adult learning. Is that funded by Community Services?
MR. COCHRANE: Mainly, we buy the seats and pay for them for the clients at Level III and Level IV. Level I and Level II, we spend about $2.8 million in the Community Literacy Network. There are 30-some organizations in the province that provide Level I and Level II and then we go to the community college for Level III and Level IV. Most of that money comes from the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning.
MR. IVANY: Just to follow, not on the funding side but on the delivery side, we have very good partnerships with the Department of Community Services both in terms of at the policy level as well as on the ground in various areas across the province. Actually, the arrangement with HRDC and their partnership with us and Community Services has seen an increase in accessibility for their clients. So there have been some creative ways to have more of Community Services clients get the barriers lowered so that they can access our programming.
MS. WHALEN: I think that's so important because we all know that additional education and training is the key to break out of a cycle of poverty, which people don't want to be in. So I think that is so important that we try to explore that as well as other training.
On the literacy side, when you say Level I and Level II, are you thinking of the kind of programs that are offered through libraries and community groups?
MR. COCHRANE: Yes. We give grants of about $2.8 million. There was a fair amount of federal money and one of the concerns now is that some of the program money from the federal government has dried up as of March 31st and we know there are some groups out there that are having a bridging problem that we are looking at but our budget has been about $2.8 million. It has gone up each year in the last couple of years trying to support the Community Literacy Network that is out there. Primarily we contract for Level I and Level II there and then Level III and Level IV.
MS. WHALEN: As it becomes more advanced, that's right.
I just wanted to touch on something. You talk about your business development group and I assume that largely they are forging those links with business. Do you have an international component at all and could you maybe just briefly talk about that? I don't know how significant it is within your organization.
[10:45 a.m.]
MR. MACLEAN: We've taken the early steps in international development and typically in post-secondary education, they are student recruitment on the international side and international projects, whether it is contract work with countries elsewhere or working developmentally with organizations such as CEDA. We have not done much on the student side because we have been concerned about student enrolment and access for Nova Scotians. Our work has actually been in student internships. We have had students go to Central American countries, Bolivia. We have done developmental projects through CEDA funding in places such as Uzbekistan, the Gambia and we have a current piece of work that may take us to Eritrea; so very early steps for us. We are doing some work in collaboration with other post-secondary institutions on matters related to immigration as well.
MS. WHALEN: In the longer term, would that provide another source of revenue for you?
MR. MACLEAN: It potentially could. Some institutions have been able to draw on some revenue, many have not.
MS. WHALEN: All right, so it is not guaranteed.
MR. COCHRANE: We are always concerned that we may spend all of our revenue chasing the contracts. We would like our people who are well-trained to be here working for Nova Scotian students and as long as they are lucrative enough, I think we will look at them. We have some international connections in the public school system. We are involved in a school in Hong Kong with regard to curriculum. That is going through some changes but we have just signed a contract with regard to three schools in China which will eventually teach the Nova Scotia curriculum and use mainly Nova Scotian teachers. There are really good opportunities there, once those get developed and cultivated for the community college to come in after they finish their high school program, and we have seen some success in other provinces in that regard.
So I think there is an interest but it always has to generate some benefit for Nova Scotia and I think we all look at those kinds of contracts to make sure that whatever share we are going to get is going to be, indeed, something that we can reinvest in our own programs.
MS. WHALEN: I think that is important. Thank you. I know there are other questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have time for a couple of short snappers, I guess. Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: I will try to be quick. To Mr. Cochrane, Mr. Taylor brought up the fact you are partnering with EnCana and that they have invested $2.25 million in the college. I am just wondering, how do you decide when you are saying there are only so many spaces and there is a backlog of people waiting to get into the various programs, how do you decide then that you are going to go forward with the partnership that may then use up part of the facility or the spaces and also to that particular one I am assuming they leave behind any of the investment that they put in it. The third part of the question is, those students who graduate from that course, do they stay in Nova Scotia, do you know? Do you have any figures on that or is that a fairly new course?
MR. COCHRANE: If I could just make a comment on the waiting list, though. Very often, people apply for more than one program on more than one campus and also apply to universities or private career colleges. So sometimes when you actually go to them and offer
them a seat, they have already gone somewhere else. It is difficult to tell whether we are double counting and we are seeing that happening. Ray will speak to the contract training side, the customized training side with regard to those because they are really done outside of our seats that we support.
MR. IVANY: Ms. Massey, that is the key point. When we do those partnerships, we do them incremental to our base of programs that you see in our calendar, for instance. It's not taking away, that's one of the reasons we do them, to be really honest with you, is so that we can create new opportunities over and above what already exist.
On your second point, absolutely. Any results of that investment, whether it be equipment or whatever, becomes the property of the college. That is part of the arrangement that we would engage in. On your last point, we don't know yet because the program is actually still in first cycle.
MR. COCHRANE: Just a point on the programs, all of the partnerships are not necessarily with the private sector. For example, there is an excellent program on the med lab technicians where there are 25 students in a program and there is a return for service from Health. If those students are successful and they do two years of service for the Province of Nova Scotia, then there is a $4,000 bursary to defray some of the costs. So some of our relationships are customized training with the private sector but many of them are with the public sector where we have recognized there is going to be a shortage, we want people in those programs. That partnership is also extended to the other provinces. New Brunswick may buy seats in the med lab one because it is not viable to offer three of those programs or four of those programs in Atlantic Canada. So the partnership network is quite extensive, both public sector, private sector and between provinces.
MR. MACLEAN: And you can add to that, Ms. MacDonald's point earlier, it is the not-for-profit sector as well. For example, we have a partnership with the Metro Immigrant Settlement Association, working in partnership with them with in developing some on-line abilities because they are actually getting demands outside metro for some of their programming for immigrants and the employment programs; English as a second language bridging programs. It's even the not-for-profit sector.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, one quick one for Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, last week the HRM put a freeze on further development for a cooling-down period. With that in mind - and you have an ambitious capital construction program which seems to be primarily focused on metro at this point - are there plans to reduce the community college's commitment to the facilities in rural Nova Scotia? Are any facilities going to be closed or privatized?
MR. COCHRANE: No.
MR. MACKINNON: So everything we have outside of metro will . . .
MR. COCHRANE: Continue to be built upon, yes.
MR. MACKINNON: In the long term. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess that concludes the question and answer session. It was quite an impressive presentation by Mr. Ivany, Mr. MacLean and Mr. Cochrane. On behalf of the committee we thank you very much for taking the time to come in here today. All the best in the community college system.
Now, workers' compensation.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, you probably have that letter that I sent to you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I do.
MR. MACKINNON: I'm not sure. Did other members of the committee receive a copy?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think so, yes.
MR. MACKINNON: As you know, the Workers' Compensation Act is in the process of being amended and there are public hearings with the Law Amendments Committee. There are a number of governance issues that were raised at the Law Amendments Committee that extend outside the legislation. Given the fact that it looks like Mr. Dorsey will be coming before the Law Amendments Committee, I think it is an excellent opportunity to have representatives from the Workers' Compensation Board to appear before this committee, which has the mandate to deal with these issues.
I would make a motion that we invite the Workers' Compensation Board senior officials, the CEO in particular, the chairman of the board and perhaps their legal counsel because some issues will overlap. I do believe that we should not wait a full month before we have them in. I know this committee historically meets once a month but I think perhaps in two weeks' time - I am open to that - in a reasonable period of time, so as to absorb a lot of the impact of their presence before this committee. So I would so move that first of all we invite them, at the approbation of the committee. Indications are that they will appear, from your letter, Mr. Chairman, and the timing is the other issue.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good, a question of the timing. As you say, we do have a letter saying that they will appear before the committee. There will be a compensation board meeting on, I believe, February 12th. They are compiling a bunch of the input that they have
received from the Law Amendments Committee and that sort of thing dealing with it on that date and probably after that date would be a good time for them to come in here.
MR. MACKINNON: Do we have any possible openings that we could schedule them?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY(Legislative Committee Clerk): I'm thinking February 17th which would be the week before our regularly scheduled meeting. That way we can devote the full two hours.
MR. MACKINNON: February 17th. Is that okay?
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's not a good week for me, I can tell you that much. I am totally tied up that week. I have ministers coming into my riding.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I'm not speaking for your caucus, but I know in our caucus perhaps there may be some replacements in order to carry some symmetry on some of the issues from one committee to the other. We could always get the vice-chairman to fill in - that's myself, of course. I'm sure members would like that because I would be less apt to ask questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think I have Ms. Massey down first.
MS. MASSEY: Yes, I am in agreement. I would like to see them come forward and at an early as possible time. February 17th is okay for me.
MR. CHAIRMAN: February 17th is a Tuesday. Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I was just basically going to say the same thing. I think it would be good to bring them forward as soon as possible, really.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor, anything?
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, they have agreed to come in and if, in fact, that is logistically acceptable, the vice-chairman has indicated that he is prepared to substitute if need be. One way or another they are going to be in here but they will, I'm sure, notify us if it's not possible to meet on that date and if that's the case, we will have to go back to the drawing board.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We can make a request for that date.
MR. MACKINNON: That sounds like a good date. It leaves a reasonable amount of lead time from the time we would hear from Mr. Dorsey and WCB, for the Law Amendments Committee and Legislative Counsel and any issues that may crop out of the governance issues to be dealt with if, in fact, they are somehow related to the legislation. So I think that would be . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: A place to have that meeting. It was suggested at the Law Amendments Committee last week that this room would probably be too small. It was suggested that maybe we go to the Red Room in the Legislature. Would that be a problem?
MRS. HENRY: No, it's not a problem. With our meetings, though, if we do have observers, from other workers groups and stuff, they cannot speak.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, that's understood.
MRS. HENRY: Just so they understand because most times when they are over in the Red Room they get to stand up and speak, so they won't be able to in this type of setting.
MR. MACKINNON: I agree, Mr. Chairman, because Friday past there were a number of injured workers who got a little bit caught up in the moment and they were quite emotional. As you noticed, at the end of the meeting security was quick to calm things down. So we have to be very cognizant of the fact it is important everybody be given an opportunity to be heard and we respect their feelings. There has to be an ensured decorum.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we will work with that. Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: It's actually not on this, it's something else.
MR. MACKINNON: That motion is okay then?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we can send them a letter requesting February 17th. Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: Just as a bit of business. I'm not sure, I have to apologize, I didn't do up a formal letter to bring forward a motion but I'm just wondering if you would indulge me on a motion.
I move that the Human Resources Committee instruct the Executive Council office to immediately take the necessary steps to appoint the Nova Scotia Environmental Assessment Board. My reasoning behind that is because we all know that the environmental assessment regulations are being revised right now and I know we have probably all taken part in that and I know the government does want to do the best job they can in protecting our environment. I think we need to have a board prepared to look at a Class II
environmental assessment if need be and I do believe - I could be wrong - that that board is not in operation right now. So it's just sort of a proactive approach that I would like to see steps taken by staff to get that board up and running again.
MR. MACKINNON: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, since we were totally unaware of the motion and the dynamics to it, if she would just have it as served notice today and the next meeting we will deal with it. Would that be fair?
MS. MASSEY: Sure, yes. That's fine.
MR. MACKINNON: The reason why I speak to that is because I have seen advertisements recently in the media where the government is asking for public input on the review of the Environmental Assessment Act. We have already gone through a very elaborate consultation process. That report was tabled with the minister almost three years ago and nothing has been done on it so we would like an opportunity to kind of digest the implications of what she is talking about.
MS. MASSEY: Fine.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, it should be as well - whether or not there is legislation that speaks to that, it may be a little outside of our mandate here. Not that we couldn't send a letter off, but I think it does deserve a little time and we are certainly prepared to look into it and if it does merit (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, no, just a second now. We have one more item here. We had the correspondence from the Executive Council from Alison Scott regarding the five points that were brought up at the last meeting. Everybody has a copy of that? (Interruptions) It was couriered yesterday to the caucus offices, so it is over there.
[11:00 a.m.]
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Can we discuss it at our next regular meeting?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MS. MASSEY: It would be better for us.
MR. CHAIRMAN: A list of the present boards and all members on said boards and a listing of the upcoming vacancies; they have compiled binders for each of the caucuses so each one can have it.
MRS. HENRY: It will be one per caucus.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Each caucus office.
MR. MACKINNON: I so move adjournment.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The meeting is adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 11:01 a.m.]