HALIFAX, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2004
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Ronald Chisholm
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will bring the Human Resources Committee to order. We will start by going around the table and have everybody introduce themselves for the record, starting with Ms. Whalen.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: So we will go to our agenda and we will start with the appointments to agencies, boards and commissions. Mr. Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, with the Office of Economic Development to the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, for the positions of directors, I so move Brian Butler, Robert Curley and Frank D. Elliott.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, as you know, we had put these over because of a concern that had been raised about the lack of gender representation on the board of the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation. A motion had been adopted to ask for clarification with respect to the number of applicants, how many applicants had, in fact, been women. We have now been provided with that information. We know that at least six of the applicants for the Liquor Corporation board were women. Sadly, we don't know if any of these women are qualified to perform the requirements of this board but I want to express our ongoing concern that gender representation on the ABCs, in many cases, is dismal and that on this particular board it's unacceptable to have such an imbalance, especially when we are getting applicants.
1
I want to say, after I raised this issue at the committee the last time with my colleague, Joan Massey, I have had calls and I have had letters from women around the province, who I don't know, who have called up to say that they are very interested in serving on the ABCs, and in particular I've had calls from people who are interested in this ABC. They aren't seeing the ads. They feel that we can do more and should do more. So I want to register those concerns again and I want to say that I won't be supporting these names for any other reason than I think that we need to do more and this creates an extraordinary imbalance in a board that is quite important. I think we all recognize the importance of this board.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think later in our agenda we are going to be having some discussion on a letter from Alison Scott that we got on January 16th regarding some of the questions we did have at a previous meeting. That is one of the issues. Gender equity is part of that.
Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, I so move Ernest Dick, Rita Lamontagne MacDonald and Paul MacKinnon to the Film Development Corporation Board.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have all heard the motion. Are you ready for the question?
MS. DIANA WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, could I just mention something? On a similar vein to the gender equity, the issue that strikes me going through all of these names is the number of people who are reappointed. I've seen this in previous meetings as well, some of them going on - not so much in this case for multiple terms but a lot of them are going on for second terms. The three coming up for the Film Development Corporation are all going into their second terms which, at least on that particular committee, they have a maximum number of terms you can serve which is two.
A lot of the committees, when I looked through, it didn't say that there was any maximum on the term. It just said, as decided by government or something like that or at the whim of somebody. But I think that it's equally important that we make opportunities available for people to come on board, any Nova Scotians who want to serve, when we get new people showing an interest, that where they are qualified they need to be given an opportunity and if people who already know their committees well keep getting recycled through those committees, then we don't have the opportunity for new people.
In this entire batch of names we have, there are 8 new people out of 21 positions and I have excluded the health authority ones because those names come to us from the committees themselves and we know that it's difficult to get people to serve on the health boards but if you look at the other boards and committees we are looking at with 21 names, only 8 represent new people who are serving. I don't know if they may have served on boards before but they are new to those committees. I think that we need to include that as well in that same conversation about how we bring these names forward and the issues that we need to look at.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think, as I understand it, that it is set out in the legislation, when each board in the agency is set up as to how long the term is going to be. That is my understanding. Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to add to that. All the appointments here this morning, as with previous appointments over the last number of years, meet the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government and it is very important to note that, as you indicated earlier, we are going to discuss this a little bit later on. We have to be pretty careful here. A number of these ABCs have to have some continuity and consistency and I think, based on some other ABC appointments, that 8 out of 21 is probably about as good as it has gotten for some time. I'm not saying that we can't strive for even more but I think just looking at it in that context, it's fair.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, as you recall in the last meeting, and I agree with my colleague who has raised the concern about reappointment after reappointment, essentially creating the optics of a closed-shop perspective. It's important that government does have some symmetry in philosophy. In general terms, you can't have a government with several hundred boards and commissions where they are completely at odds with every turn in the road on government, but I want to be mindful of the last meeting when we raised the concern about gender equity only to find that it was essentially a majority female board that recommended male appointments. We were taking issue, that was the southwest health board. Sometimes the optics of what we see here is not exactly the way we are in reality.
The fact of the matter is, we were criticizing, or at least some members of the committee were criticizing, the fact that there wasn't gender equity when, in fact, if we were to do our due diligence, as I did in that case - I felt I did - I went right back to the chairman of the community health board who was a retired nurse and she advised me that the majority of her board were women and they recommended the male candidates for the appointment that came before this committee. I'm not sure if there has to be some kind of a balancing act on what information we have here versus what is carried out at the local level or what. I put that on the table. We can't be too harsh.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We can discuss that further when we get further down on our agenda. We do have a motion on the floor. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Trade Centre Limited, I so move Peter Bryson, Q.C., David R. Chisholm and Wayne J. Crawley, CA as directors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would just like to intervene and indicate that, again, this board has representation of nine male members and two female members. I think there is room for flexibility, when we look at the fact that the Trade Centre board has all of these constituents that it draws from in terms of HRM Council and different groups. So it's understandable, I think, in some ways that the gender parity isn't reflected to the same degree as we would want.
However, having said that, I think it is important to note that here is a really important facility with a board of directors and, with all due respect to Mr. Taylor, I see no affirmative action candidates, really, on this board, in terms of public appointments. This is a concern. We have an opportunity here, I think, to start addressing these issues, and we need to show some political will in that regard.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering - and not being facetious - if, in fact, the honourable member feels the same way about the membership on the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, whether or not she feels we should strive for gender equity on that particular committee? I think that with some of these committees you have to take them in context.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Point taken. Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Education, Nova Scotia Advisory Board on Colleges and Universities, I so move Brad Barton, Dr. Charles MacDonald and Dr. Leslie Oliver as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Finance, Nova Scotia Gaming Corporation, I so move Peter Gerard Fardy as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Health District Health Authorities, District Health Authority No. 2, South West Nova District, I so move James Graham as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Health District Health Authorities, District Health Authority No. 7, Guysborough Antigonish Strait District, I so move Allen Radford as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Health, Nova Scotia College of Physiotherapists, I so move Janice Atkins as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Tourism and Culture, Board of Governors of Gaelic College Foundation, I so move Ronald A. MacDonald and Rev. Sandra Morrison as governors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Mr. Taylor.
[9:15 a.m.]
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Tourism and Culture, Advisory Council on Heritage Property, I so move Peter Sheehan as chairman/member, and, as well, Douglas Day; M.H. Frank Harrington, FRAIC; David A. Murphy, M.D.; and Allen Robertson, Ph.D. as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You've all heard that motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye.
MS. WHALEN: Would it be possible for me to just make a comment on that committee?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MS. WHALEN: And maybe you could advise me whether we do more than appoint, do we advise these committees in any way? It was my understanding that that committee hasn't met for perhaps a year. I'm wondering if we have the authority at this committee to ask them to review their schedule or to put in their terms of reference a minimum number of meetings per year. I did read in the applications that they've been without a chairman; it said there hadn't been a chairman on that committee. One of the applicants, I think, has put his name down saying he's willing to be chairman. Is that possible, that we could make a
motion that they look at that and create a regular schedule of meetings, even if it's twice a year, just to say that they . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe we could maybe drop them a note or a line and ask the question.
MS. WHALEN: I would be happy if you would do that on our behalf.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That would be fine. Darlene, we can do that.
MS. WHALEN: And perhaps with these reappointments, we will start to get them going again with a new chairman in place. I think it should be noted that these are very important, and there are properties probably waiting for a determination from that committee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will do that. Is there any further discussion? Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
That concludes the appointments to the ABCs. We will go to Committee Business, Revision of the Human Resources Guidelines. Everybody has received the letter. I guess all caucuses have received this.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, are we going to deal with this at this particular time?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess so, it's on the agenda for . . .
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, through you, Darlene, would you be able to apprise us of the distinction between these guidelines and the previous ones?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): From the last meeting, it was asked, in reference to Guideline 10, to distinguish how many of the responses that we receive from the advertisements are of the female gender and of the male gender. What I had done is just added that motion to the question, and then put it out to the committee as a draft to see if that's how you want it or if you want to change it some more. That was what was brought forward from the last meeting.
MR. TAYLOR: That just basically replaces Guideline 10 that was there, asking for the collective response.
MRS. HENRY: The original Guideline 10 is still there, I just put this on the end of it. It's still the same, with the addition of the motion.
MS. WHALEN: Mr. Chairman, could I just clarify? Is it just Guideline 10 where we've added what the gender breakdown is? I see previously that we just said how many responses came from the advertisements, and now we're asking how many were male and female?
MRS. HENRY: Yes.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, on Guideline 11 it asks the question, "Was this person solicited to apply for this position?" I was somewhat intrigued last week when the Chairman of the Workers' Compensation Board came before our committee and indicated quite clearly that he had been solicited to apply for that position. Yet, if you read the information that was put before the Human Resources Committee, when we voted on it, it indicated no, he was not solicited. I'm just a little bit curious as to the dynamics of this particular question. Should there be a little more detail to it, or has somebody been misguided?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe we can do Guideline 10 first, then we will come to Guideline 11, Russell. We will go over this whole draft. With Guideline 10, where the responses that came from the advertisement, how many are of female gender and how many are of male gender, is there any more discussion on that?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Yes, I'm wondering, I know that at the last meeting Mr. Taylor made an intervention around the affirmative action designated groups more broadly than just gender. Perhaps that question, in fact, could reflect the breakdown between male applicants, female applicants, and affirmative action applicants consistent with the affirmative action policies of the Public Service Commission or the Human Rights Commission. That way we would have a better appreciation of whether we are getting applicants that reflect the diversity of people in the province.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure, we should probably get some advice on that one.
MR. GORDON HEBB: I'm not sure what the question is . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maureen was saying she wants to include ethnic backgrounds and that sort of thing.
MR. HEBB: As I understand it, in the Civil Service people aren't actually asked for it but people are given an opportunity to self-identify with a minority group if they wish to do so. I see no reason why you couldn't tabulate that information for the committee if that's available.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: The Province of Nova Scotia has an affirmative action policy. The ad that goes in the newspaper on the bottom in very fine, minuscule, hard-to-see print indicates that appointments will take into consideration the affirmative action policy and categories. So that information surely could be compiled and given. Clearly, some candidates may not self-identify in the affirmative action groups when they apply, and that's fine, we have no way of knowing, but at least we should have that information. If we are going to make any changes that will provide more equity in ABCs then, you know, we have to start someplace and having the information is one place to start.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I'm satisfied with the fact that Guideline 5, which is related, of course to Guideline 10, "Does the ABC currently meet the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government?" - I think we are perhaps straying a little bit from our agenda, when we would require somebody who is a visible minority, for example, to make that denotation. Again, I have no difficulty, if that's the feeling of the committee, but we are told - and have been told by this government and the previous government, when this question was part of the guidelines - that the affirmative action and gender equality policies are being met. I recall, as the honourable member mentioned, that at the last meeting I said if, in fact, we're going to go after the gender of any given candidate, then why don't we go further?
Upon subsequent reflection, Mr. Chairman, from discussions with some folks, I think you will find they may not be willing to provide that type of information and it really wouldn't reflect, in that sense, whether or not visible minorities did apply. So I think the gender one may be more appropriate or supportable, but that's just a concern I have. Like I said, I won't be dismayed if we do include it all.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: The difficulty with Guideline 5 is nobody really knows what that means in practice. I have been on this committee for a long time now and I see a range of responses to that question, "Does the ABC currently meet the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government?" Frequently, with the various ABCs coming in front of us, that question is filled in yes, no information provided. Frequently, when we have a 100 per cent white-male, able-bodied ABC in front of us, that question will be responded to with a yes. Well what does that mean? Does that mean they attempted to meet the affirmative action and gender equity policies of the government and were unable to? Does it mean they just had no applicants from these groups? We don't know what that means.
If you look today at the responses to that question, for example, with the Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation, "Does the ABC currently meet the affirmative action and gender equality policies of the government?" the response is, "The Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation is comprised of six (6) male and one (1) female members." That
doesn't really tell us anything, it doesn't answer that question whatsoever, so this is my point, that we need better information. That particular question does not really get at the information that the committee could use, in terms of making appointments here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Just a further point, we agreed at the committee level some time ago that, in fact, it was a subcommittee of this committee that said information reviewed on any resumé or CV will be completed by the committee in camera and not released to the media, excepting that should the applicant be the successful candidate to the position on the ABC, and if successful the resumé could be subject to public scrutiny. I'm not sure whether Guideline 10 would contravene that type of information or whether or not as a committee we want to change another decision we made as a subcommittee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. MACKINNON: The member for Halifax Needham does make some good points but nothing is foolproof. There is a certain degree of due diligence that has to be carried out by departmental staff, senior directors and so on. Unless we have some tangible evidence that there is something dysfunctional, then I think we have to be a little cautious suggesting that they're not doing that. But that doesn't discredit - you know, the point that is made is a good point. I will give you an example of how it is not foolproof.
I recall one application when we were in government that came before government - I just mentioned it to my colleague here - when somebody was applying for a particular agency of government, one of these ABCs, if you were to read the resumé, clearly, you could not come to any other conclusion but she was a member of the African community; she was not. It was through a whole series of memberships and associations and so on, she wasn't even a Canadian citizen, she was here in Canada for a one-year term. You would never know any of that information unless you knew that individual, so nothing is foolproof.
I don't know what the balancing act is, I do believe we should have more information, but to what extent I don't know. I do know one thing, I would be very concerned about questioning the integrity of our public servants who, in many cases, have to review these ABC appointments to ensure we are getting quality candidates.
[9:30 a.m.]
I know I had to, as a minister, rely on senior directors who would make recommendations. You couldn't put somebody, let's say on the power engineers, you know the elevator lifts or something like that, who didn't know anything about that profession. You had to have some expertise. Now I know not all boards and commissions are of that nature.
The degree of expertise varies depending upon each one. Somewhere in the mix, I think there could be some refinement but a wholesale change, I would be very cautious about.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if it might be an idea if we get our subcommittee going again and maybe that subcommittee could sit down at a session and go over this draft and see what changes or how we may want to handle it and bring it back to a committee meeting.
MR. MACKINNON: Agreed.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would agree to this. If we can agree, I would propose that we also ask that committee to look at ways to promote the ABCs beyond the traditional methods that we use that would hopefully see a larger number of applicants from designated affirmative action groups. I think that ultimately is where we all want to go. We want to see these ABCs more representative of the province more generally. If we can find a way, as a committee, to facilitate a better representation of applicants because everybody seems to recognize, I think, that the number of applicants for the ABCs are quite small in many respects. The Public Service, when they are doing the screening, as the member for Cape Breton West says, they can only work with what they have in front of them, but perhaps what we ultimately need to be doing - and this is our point - is to broaden that group. We need to be looking for a better representation in terms of the affirmative action groups. Perhaps the subcommittee could be given that task.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, there are a number of things I guess we can discuss at the subcommittee.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Beyond the form, I would say.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: Since you mentioned that there are other things, I would like to add something else to the work of that subcommittee if we, indeed, decide to form it and that would be the means by which we advertise these agencies, boards and commissions. I think that the member for Halifax Needham had mentioned that people have called and said they don't see the ads. They are not always in places where people will see them and that will be either members of perhaps other groups and visible minorities, or even just regular people doing their business don't notice those ads. So whether they need to be better publicized or in some different way brought to the attention of the public, I think that would be a good idea.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe over the last number of years there has been a lot of discussion on the advertising part of it.
MS. WHALEN: I've heard the same thing as a city councillor as well, when we put our ads in, that they are a bit obscure the way they are put in the newspapers. So I think it could be reviewed by the committee. We don't need to discuss it here but if the committee is looking at how this form looks and what kind of information we are making available, then I think that should be considered.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I would be prepared to put a motion on the . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think Mr. MacKinnon has a word there.
MR. MACKINNON: I agree that we have to find some way, because probably the more Nova Scotians becoming involved in this process the better it is for the quality of government. I do agree with that and I do believe not enough Nova Scotians are applying, whatever the reason. It may be to the points that you have mentioned and it could be for other reasons. There are many Nova Scotians who apply, go on these boards and commissions and never show up because they feel they are losing time from work and they are losing money and a whole lot of reasons. It could be a whole variety of reasons. I'm absolutely amazed why somebody would go through a long, complicated process, at times, only to find out that at the end of the day they don't want it. I've seen that on a number of occasions.
As I have said, it is not foolproof. We have seen, two meetings ago, where a lot of issue was taken, as well as the last meeting, as well as again today, on the issue of gender equity, but looking at the Occupational Health & Safety Advisory Board, all labour representatives who go on there have gone through the Federation of Labour and there is very little gender equity that came forth there yet all members on this committee supported those appointments. So we can't have it both ways, is what I am saying.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I think before we establish a subcommittee, we should try to get some hard, fast information. We are told time and time again, every time relative to an ABC, that affirmative action and gender equity is being met. In fact, I think Darlene, at the last meeting, had some figures relative to proportions of the number of females, for example, that apply and the number that are appointed, and the percentages were fairly good in that context. Again, there is a concern about the numbers that apply.
So I think before we bite off a little more than maybe we can chew, why don't we try, through Executive Council, to get some information on the present situation relative to affirmative action. I agree with the member for Cape Breton West that we clearly have to have people on these ABCs who are qualified to carry out the responsibilities and roles of any given ABC. Again, I don't think we want to set up a subcommittee with a terms of reference unless we know what we are looking for. That is just a concern that I would have that maybe affirmative action goals are being met, as we are being told, but really I think it
is something that before we establish a subcommittee to go out and set an objective, we should see what grounds, what basis there is for setting a goal and an objective of a subcommittee because we clearly don't know.
MR. MACKINNON: Can we have a report for the next meeting?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we could ask Executive Council to provide as much information as they can . . .
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: With all due respect though, Mr. Chairman, you know, the stats are going to be worse for other affirmative action candidates than for men and women. Mr. Taylor, you and I have both been at this committee now for a number of years and we have seen the names go through. It's not rocket science to recognize the absolute absence, practically, of appointments from the African-Nova Scotian community, the Mi'kmaq community, persons with disabilities. The stats will be dismal, they will be much worse than what we are seeing with men and women. That is clear. I have no objection to attempting to get that information from Executive Council if that will help move this issue along, but let's not be naive here about what the circumstances are. That's the first thing.
Secondly, surely no members of this committee would suggest that the problem is that there aren't qualified women or there aren't qualified members of these designated groups. The problem is we are not getting the applications in the numbers that we require and we need a strategy to deal with that. That, I think, has waited for far too long and we have an opportunity here to address that.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I respect everybody's opinion. When we leave here at the end of the day, we make the decisions whether we agree or not. The NDP, up until several meetings ago, insisted on having a complete menu of all ABC appointments - who is sitting on those appointments, the expiry dates, how much they are being paid, the whole gamut. They were provided that booklet and the reason they wanted that booklet is so that they could go out, as the record will show, and solicit their constituents.
Now let's put it in perspective, what is the MLA for Halifax Needham's game plan? She can put icing on it all she wants. What she seems to be alluding to, if she would agree with her colleague who made the statement is, we want all NDP appointments on these boards. That seems to be where she is going with this.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor. See if we can wrap this up.
MR. TAYLOR: You know it is a difficult position, I think, from time to time that all board members find themselves in regarding these ABCs. I think if we are honest, we would admit to that. We know that there are a number of NDP candidates who are successful.
We've seen NDP candidates for reappointments, six times in fact, and never a word was said. I believe that candidate is more than qualified to carry out his function, without mentioning the committee.
How do you get the balance? I'm willing to work with committee members to see if we can get a balance. We have to be fair here as well. There are a lot of qualified candidates who are applying, and if we can get the information first, before we go out on some type of a mission - Mr. Chairman, by the next meeting, it would be nice if we could have that information, if we can - then we could take appropriate steps, if there are some shortcomings or deficiencies. But rather than just starting to set terms of references without really having the information that's so necessary to do that, I just don't think it would be the appropriate thing to do at this time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Whalen.
MS. WHALEN: I wonder if Mr. Taylor could just elaborate a little bit on what information it is we're looking for. You've referred to Guideline 5, and that was mentioned earlier, about that being kind of an obscure question because we keep getting a yes in answer to that in every case. Is that specifically what we would like a little more clarification on, what exactly is being measured when we get a yes or a no on that question?
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, with all respect, I think that was the concern that was expressed, that perhaps affirmation action considerations were not being adequately or appropriately addressed by the committee or, in fact, the folks who pass these books over to the committee members. If we had that type of information, the number of applicants, the proportion that is actually qualified, something like we had relative to the gender question, I would be satisfied with that. Then we could look - because when we received the number of applicants and looked at the proportion that was actually appointed, it was reasonable. Let's not get the cart too far ahead of the horse here. I think we have to work at this, but do it in a comprehensive manner.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So you're suggesting that we send a letter to the Executive Council to try to get that information for our next meeting?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Agreed, if it will move it ahead.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for the record, to follow up on what Ms. MacDonald said about the appointments, there were two African-Nova Scotians reappointed today to . . .
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Out of how many though, Mr. Chairman? How many this year?
MR. CHAIRMAN: They have to apply, and that's part of the problem.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: That's exactly my point. Let's do something about that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will do that. We will get a letter off to the Executive Council to try to get that information for our next meeting.
The next item is to review the correspondence of January 16th received from the Executive Council . Those are some of the questions that we had at our meeting in December, probably. The reason we have this on the agenda today is at the last meeting different caucuses hadn't received the letter as of the day of the meeting, so we put it back on . . .
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I still didn't receive it. It was faxed, I think, to the caucus office yesterday.
MRS. HENRY: It was couriered the day before the last meeting, that Monday.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I saw it for the first time this morning (Interruptions) No, it wasn't part of the package that was couriered to me.
MRS. HENRY: No, it was sent separately, couriered to the office and signed for. (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on the issues that were raised and the response we got from Alison Scott, Clerk of the Executive Council?
[9:45 a.m.]
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I'm wondering if we could put off discussion until we get the information that we've asked for, for our next meeting? Perhaps that would make sense.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We could do that. Is everybody agreed? Agreed.
Our next meeting date, March 30th.
Is there any further business? Hearing none, we are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 9:46 a.m.]