HALIFAX, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 16, 2003
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Ronald Chisholm
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will bring the meeting of the Human Resources Committee to order. We will do a sound check around the table, starting with Mr. MacKinnon.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will move to the Agenda. We will start with the Appointments to Agencies, Boards and Commissions.
MS. JOAN MASSEY: Excuse me, before we start, would there be a place on the agenda that I could make a few comments, not in regard to each specific person but just some general comments?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I guess so. It is nothing to do with the appointments, is it?
MS. MASSEY: No.
MR. CHAIRMAN: A different issue, okay. Right after we finish the ABCs maybe we can go into that.
MS. MASSEY: Thanks.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will move into appointments.
MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, I would move Harold Rafuse to the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre as a board member.
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have all heard the motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Office of Economic Development, Waterfront Development Corporation Ltd. Board of Directors, I would move - if it's okay to go en bloc - Alan L. Barkhouse, Ruth M. Goldbloom, David Harrison and Robert E. Hartlin as directors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have all heard the motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, could I just make a comment there after that? I noticed on that one that in the requirements for that board, it should be an equal amount of board members from Dartmouth, Bedford and Halifax. I'm just wondering, with these four appointments, I just wanted to make that known that there will now be six from Halifax, one from Bedford and two from Dartmouth. So I am just wondering if in the future that could be something that is looked at when the applications come through to have a more even balance. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, point taken.
Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Workers' Compensation Board, I would like to move Gary Dean, James E. Melvin, M. Charlene Long and James J. White as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: A general observation with regard to the first applicant, Mr. Dean. I understand Mr. Dean would be representing management in this capacity. I know he would certainly bring some expertise to the board. In fact, when I was Minister of Labour, I appointed him to the board, a reappointment I believe.
I am becoming a little concerned. My understanding is that Mr. Dean spends a considerable amount of his time living in the United States, and he has effectively retired from industry. The process, really, as I understand it - and I notice there are a few senior members at the table here today who can either confirm or refute what I'm saying - the intent is to have active participants in the marketplace. This is an issue that was raised on a
previous day with another appointment. I wanted to flag that. If the committee is satisfied with that, well that's great.
I also understand that Mr. Dean is on the Labour Relations Board, as well. Interesting. I guess we could have some comments from . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not aware of where Mr. Dean lives or . . .
MR. MACKINNON: The address here is Waterfront Drive, Bedford, but . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: As far as I understand, he's been nominated by the Construction Association of the province. That's where his name came from.
MR. MACKINNON: I just thought I would flag it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have all heard the motion. Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Environment and Labour, Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council, I would move John Amirault, Archie MacKeigan, Harris McNamara, Susan Peverelle, Gary Slauenwhite, Jacqueline Hatt, Neil Power, Leo van Berkel, Rick Clarke, Gary Fraser, Rob Wells and Cecil MacRae as members.
[9:15 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have all heard the motion. Are you ready for the question?
MR. MACKINNON: I have no problem, I agree with all of those except for Mr. Wells, so I will be voting in favour of all except for Mr. Wells. I imagine everybody else will be supporting all of them but I just want to go on record as opposing Mr. Wells' appointment.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for District Health Authority No.1, South Shore District, I so move Mr. James Mosher as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for District Health Authority No. 4, Colchester-East Hants District, I so move Karen Casey.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for District Health Authority No. 9, Capital District, I so move Bryan Darrell as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Nova Scotia Hospital, I so move Bryan Darrell as a board member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, for the Office of Health Promotion, Boxing Authority of Nova Scotia, I so move Hubert Earle as Referee-in Chief, and Glen Edwards and Francis "Rocky" MacDougall as board members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Tourism and Culture, Art Gallery of Nova Scotia, I so move Carolyn R. Moore to the board of governors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
That concludes the appointments. We will now go to Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: Being fairly new to this process, there were a couple of things when I went through the booklet last week, a couple of things that I would like to maybe see in the future. I think I've only seen in here - and it wasn't in this batch, it was in the last batch - one copy of a reference. Most often it just says, references upon request and I was wondering, is there a reason why we don't see the person's actual reference letters? I would like to see that in future, if possible.
Another thing I noticed is these boards seem to have a heavier male weight to them than female. Through this batch here, for example, 8 males to 1 female; 7 to 1; 10 to 3; 10 to 4, so I would like to see that looked into and I'm sure if the applicants just aren't coming through, that maybe there are more male applicants, I'm not sure. Of course, we don't see all of the applicants which is another one of my beefs and I don't know if that's just part of the process where we don't see the applicants, or we can't. I would like to see more of the names that do come forward.
Another concern is also that - and I'm not sure how this relates to these boards working and the process that they work under - a lot of these reappointments have served nine years, you know, they've been in for four terms and I'm not sure if that's something when you are on one of these boards you're on it until you want to get off it, I guess. So I guess that's another concern, it's just that new blood is always good for some of these processes.
My last comment is, just for my own benefit and, perhaps other people might find this helpful, I would like to have a list of all the boards right now and all the people who are on said boards and where the vacancies are. I find myself just getting it on a monthly basis. This way what I would like to be able to do is through my constituency be able to let my people in my constituency, my riding, know what boards have vacancies and perhaps there will be people who would be interested in serving on some of these. It would just make it easier, and I am sure for everybody else too, to be able to get people interested in getting on these boards. I am not sure in my own head right now where we stand on these boards, if there are a lot of vacancies or not a lot of vacancies and some of these spots might be of interest to people. Those are my comments, thanks.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I think the member raises some very good points. The mandate of the committee, and I am sure the honourable members had an opportunity to go over that, requires us, as a committee, to be mindful of representation relative to culture and gender, ethnics and things of that nature. In many cases I think the member will find that there are, in fact, for whatever reasons, more males that apply for the positions than females - generally, not always.
We did, several years ago, do some research on that very topic, there was a subcommittee established of the Human Resources Committee and I had the privilege of serving on that committee along with the late MLA for Halifax Fairview, and a Liberal MLA whose name escapes me at this time, but it was a concern then and it may well be a concern now, but I would like to think that we, as well, through the selection process, that members of that entity are very mindful, too, of the qualification of candidates as much as anything, keeping all other concerns at the forefront as well. But I am sure that there are some difficult deliberations that take place when you are dealing with these nominations.
As well, the member raises a concern about reappointments and she's not the first member around the table to bring that concern, Mr. Chairman, to the committee's attention, but on many occasions, however, I think it would be difficult for the selection panel to not reappoint many of the candidates because, in fact, they've provided exemplary service to those ABCs or usually that when we read, in fact, today in looking at some of the reappointments, and there are a good number of reappointments today, especially as members recognize, when you look at the written material that's accompanying the recommended appointment for the ABC it seems to indicate that the decision was quite easy for the committee as far as the reappointment goes, that's not to say it's right. Anyway, those are just my thoughts.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Taylor. Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member does make some good points but I was a little surprised to hear her suggest that now the NDP members are going to start canvassing the general public for potential candidates, when they, on previous days, suggested there should be a hands-off approach, so there shouldn't be patronage. So I was a little surprised at that and I don't think she meant that with ill intent, but maybe her not knowing what transpired in previous committee meetings could be part of that reason.
With regard to the gender equity, that's always been a concern, I believe, speaking from having served on the Executive Council, that was always an issue that would be debated, in trying to achieve gender equity, but one of the difficulties is sometimes there wouldn't always be a female candidate apply or there wouldn't be a sufficient number to be able to generate a candidate that would meet the criteria. That wasn't always the case but in many cases that was what I found.
Her point on voting for people who have been on for quite awhile, well, I just mentioned the reference point about Mr. Dean, now retired out of the industry, but she voted for it without question. So, these are all things, I guess, we can all learn from and I will certainly take her points on notice.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon. Ms. MacDonald.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Well, a couple of things. I think the member for Dartmouth East raises some really good points. I made a list of four issues here. First of all, is there any reason why we don't get letters of reference in our package, along with the resumés? I am following up, I am looking for some answers to these questions that have been raised. First of all, is there any reason our package doesn't include reference letters?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I can't answer that, but I think we could probably write a letter and find out those answers.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Okay, that would be great. In terms of the equity issue, few women being appointed. I have to say that these arguments that there aren't very many women who apply, those are old arguments around equity that hold little water, actually. If women aren't applying, then perhaps we need to look at that and attempt to address that. We're living in a time where there are more women graduating from medical school, law school, university programs these days, for example, than at any other time and, in fact, they reflect the majority of people in these programs. So, women have certainly a lot of skills and a lot of talent and it's a growing pool of people who are in the labour market and elsewhere and there's something wrong if we're not reflecting that in the boards and commissions of this province.
We need to be a little proactive here and not sit back and say, oh well, this is something that we really can't address because women don't apply. We need to ask for some new approaches to be taken in the recruitment onto boards and commissions so that they do more adequately reflect a modern-day society and not the dinosaur age. I think that's probably something that we could do and it's worth spending some time thinking about how to actually do that.
The question of reappointments is a difficult one, as the member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley said, because there are people who do have a lot of experience and expertise. But just the same, I think we have to be cognizant that you need to constantly be renewing the participation of people on these boards and the knowledge base.
My last question is about whether or not we can get a list, if we could have a little binder, let's say, of all of the boards and commissions, who are on them and where the vacancies are and maybe have that updated annually or twice a year, that would be very helpful. I am wondering if there is any reason why we can't get that or is that something that we can look into getting? There must be an inventory someplace or a centralized list, I would think, someplace.
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): I can check with Executive Council. I only get what they send me, so I have no idea what they have. So I can check.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We can check.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: Okay, perhaps the staff through the Chairman. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We can get a report back to us at the next meeting as to what we can do.
Ms. Massey.
MS. MASSEY: I would just like to clarify a couple of points that I made. The way this process works, we only see the applicants that have basically been approved by the screening committee. So, unless I take the attitude that I'm going to sit here and turn down every person, I'm going to sit at home and say, well, I'm going to turn down this amount of applicants because they're not female, if I'm going to sit on my own, I don't have recourse, I don't have any other recourse, because I don't see anybody else's applications. I don't see the people who were turned down, so I don't know if five women were turned down and that's how this male's name got this far. As far as saying, I'm sitting here voting for these people who may be reappointments and they may be male, so it's heavy on the male side, I don't have any other recourse unless you want me to sit here. So the process doesn't really work that well, I guess that's what I'm trying to get at.
[9:30 a.m.]
As far as a hands-off attitude as far as these boards go, I always believe that it is better to communicate with as many people as you can. I just feel that that ad goes in the paper whenever, once a month or however often it goes in the paper, and not everybody gets a newspaper in this province, number one. So if I can do anything in my riding association to get that information out there, and if it's of interest to somebody. You can't sit here and tell me that other people aren't letting their communities know there are vacancies, I don't believe that.
I would just like to make the process better for the public. That's all I'm trying to do. If I can post them somewhere or get a newsletter out to my community - and not everybody who is getting my newsletter is going to be NDP - if I can help the community get involved in this province, that's part of my job.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe you can do that now. The ad is in the paper, I believe it's twice a year, The Herald, the Post and The Daily News.
MS. MASSEY: What I'm trying to do is just find out where the vacancies are right now, so that instead of waiting for that to happen, to be proactive. I just want to be a little bit proactive . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: You can get that ad and then you can do whatever you wish with that. If you want to send it to every constituent in your riding, that's your choice.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, not to drag this out too far, I indicated earlier that I personally find it hard to vote against a reappointment, provided the Form "A" indicates that they come highly recommended and in most cases they do, mind you without reference. I'm wondering, the member for Dartmouth East spoke about reappointments, if she was perhaps referring to - I will pick a couple of names at random here - Mr. Rick Clarke, for example. The number of previous terms that he has served is seven, the number of previous years he has served is 17. Perhaps to the honourable member and some others that may sound a bit excessive, but if you look at the Form "A" regarding Mr. Rick Clarke for example, you will find that his employee relations, his representation of the employees probably doesn't take a back seat to too many people. As well, I could use the name of Mr. Rob Wells.
Those are a couple of names that have been reappointed time and time again, just to look at a couple of names. I know our caucus supported those individuals and a number of other individuals who have been reappointed. I think it would be kind of difficult to just do a carte blanche on reappointments, so I wouldn't support that at all, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion?
MR. MACKINNON: Just briefly, just to pick up on what Mr. Taylor was saying, on the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council, if the honourable member was looking for gender equity, she had an excellent opportunity to do that. Mr. Clarke, as I understand, is an active member at the NDP caucus table and has stated that on numerous occasions. That would have been an excellent opportunity for the member for Dartmouth East to raise the issue of gender equity, yet she supported all male candidates for the appointments. Certainly that doesn't balance off with the structure of the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council whatsoever. I think leadership does start at home, and it's easy to point fingers at everybody else's inequities. I think there should be an even playing field here.
MS. MASSEY: I'm not pointing anybody out. I didn't mean to start this as some sort of banter, back and forth, let's go after each other. Really, seriously, this is the second meeting I've been to, and I'm just trying to point out things that maybe can be improved for all of us, not for any specific Party. I don't want to start a cat fight here, I'm just here to try to communicate as best I can and point out some things that maybe can change in the future, or maybe they don't need to be changed. I'm just putting out some things, I'm not pointing out any specifics, I'm just making some observations.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well certainly this discussion could probably be ongoing for a few hours if we wanted to let it go.
Ms. MacDonald, the last word.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: It is good to have a new pair of eyes looking at this process. I think some of us have been here five, six years or longer and you become a little complacent, or a little cynical about making change. I think that we have a new member here who is looking at this process with a fresh perspective and I would hope that those of us who have been here a little longer would be more open to taking up the challenge, I think, that she's laid here, that there can be some improvements in this process. She certainly has identified one that I would support.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We do have a few things to follow up on for the next meeting as a result of that discussion. Any further business? At our next meeting we will have the people from the community college program coming in from 9:30 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. We will do the ABCs before that, from 9:00 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. or for whatever time it takes. Is there a motion to adjourn?
MR. MACKINNON: I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The meeting is adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 9:37 a.m.]