MADAM CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone. Before we start on the ABCs that are in the book, I would like first to ask, we have been asked by the Department of Agriculture and Marketing, they have submitted two names for reappointment. They are not in your book. You have two choices. We can either sign waivers that we can bring them up today or we can meet next week for five minutes. There is a national meeting in May with the Department of Agriculture and the names that are being considered for reappointment are Peter Van Oostrum and Thane Fullerton. I ask you what you would rather do. Would you rather sign a waiver and approve them today or do you want to have a short, five minute meeting next week after the seven days are up?
MR. TERENCE DONAHOE: Madam Chairman, I am sorry. The meeting is what meeting?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: It is the national meeting.
MR. DONAHOE: Of?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Of the Federation of Agriculture.
MR. DONAHOE: The national federation?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, and these names are not new names. These names are reappointments.
MR. DONAHOE: To the Nova Scotia federation.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, to the Nova Scotia Crop & Livestock Insurance Commission.
MR. DONAHOE: Okay. The purpose of the appointments, or the need for the appointments is so that they have some status to attend the national meeting?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: To go to the meeting in May, yes.
MR. DONAHOE: And the national meeting is when?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: In May. That is all I know. But it will be before our next meeting in May.
MR. DONAHOE: Okay. The two names suggested are persons who are already members?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: They are already members and just up for reappointment. They are not new members but, as I say, Mora has the waivers for you to sign for today.
HON. JAMES BARKHOUSE: Madam Chairman, I move the committee accept the waivers today.
MR. DONAHOE: I don't have a problem with that. I would be pleased to sign a waiver today and get it done.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, then I will ask for the Nova Scotia Crop & Livestock Insurance Commission that the names of Peter Van Oostrum and Thane Fullerton be appointed to that board, please.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
I ask that you all sign the waivers and return them to Mora before we leave. Thank you kindly.
Now we will go to the book. The Department of Agriculture and Marketing, please, if I may have a motion.
MR. WILLIAM MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, I move to the Maritime Provinces Harness Racing Commission, Alexander (Sandy) MacPherson.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The Department of Community Services, Social Workers - Board of Examiners.
MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, I move that Deborah McGinn Norris be appointed to the Social Workers - Board of Examiners.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. BARKHOUSE: Madam Chairman, I move to the Round Table on Day Care, Jeannie I. Delany, Anna MacDonell and Shari Ridgewell.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. WILLIAM MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, I move to the Arts Council of Nova Scotia, Ninette Babineau, Ronald Bourgeois, Douglas Brown, Caroline Chan, Richard W. Emberley, Shelley Fashan, Susan Atkinson Keen, Christopher King, James MacSwain, Mern O'Brien, Joan Prosper, Pat Richards, Ken Schwartz, Carol Sinclair and Susan Tileston.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The next one, the third name down, Ronald Caldwell should be Ronald Bourque. It is correct inside, it is just wrong on this list here.
So, if I could have a nomination, please.
MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: Madam Chairman, I move the following names to the Conseil Scolaire Acadien Provincial - Interim Board: Wilfred Aucoin, Alfred Benoit, Ronald Bourque, Delina Comeau, Francine Comeau, Louis Cormier, Jean-Bernard d'Entremont, Louis d'Entremont, Louise Doull, Dominic Marchand and Louise Marchand.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Next one, please. Private Trade School.
MR. CLIFFORD HUSKILSON: Madam Chairman, I so move Tara N. Ibrahim to the Private Trade School - Provincial.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The Department of Health.
MR. HUSKILSON: Madam Chairman, I so move Clifford A. Moir.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: To the Dartmouth General Hospital.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Next one, please.
MR. MACASKILL: Madam Chairman, I move the name of Tracey Williams to the Department of Housing and Consumer Affairs, Preston Area Housing Fund - Board of Directors.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The Department of Transportation.
MR. HUSKILSON: Madam Chairman, I so move Thomas J. Hayes.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: To the Halifax-Dartmouth Port Development Corporation.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Status of Women, may I have a motion, please.
MR. DONAHOE: Madam Chairman, if I may, before you take a motion relative to the proposed appointments to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, I would like to make a motion and move that in light of the fact that the names proposed for appointment to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women do not come to this committee in compliance with an agreement reached between the Honourable Eleanor Norrie and the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, relative to appointments to that council, that the appointments proposed on today's agenda be deferred until the Honourable Mrs. Norrie has an opportunity to explain to the Human Resources Committee why the agreed process was not followed in this instance.
You will be aware, from correspondence which I shared with you and other colleagues on the committee yesterday, that I did raise the matter of the fact that in June 1994, or thereabouts, the Honourable Eleanor Norrie signed an agreement or a memorandum of understanding or there was an exchange of correspondence between herself and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and at that time that documentation set out a process and a procedure whereby the advisory council would play a role in the identification of women of ability across the province for appointment to the advisory council, that there would be a process involving a selection committee made up of two current council members, staff members, members of the women's community, who would solicit those nominations for new council members, that they would then go on to the minister.
You will recall, as will all other colleagues, that that process was, in fact, followed when earlier appointments were made when, in fact, Patricia Doyle Bedwell of Chapel Island, Richmond County; Dianne Crowell of Glenwood, Yarmouth County; Darlene Lawrence of Deep Brook, Annapolis County; Donna Marshall of Dartmouth; Jackie Nibby of Indian Brook, Hants County; Doreen Paris of New Glasgow; and Marcie Shwery-Stanley of Sydney were appointed. They were appointed following that process.
I have a press clipping of Thursday, September 1, 1994, with very elegant pictures of Minister Norrie and Ms. McDonough, and the headline is, "McDonough applauds appointments to women's council", and I did as well at the same time. The appointment
process that had been agreed in June 1994 was followed. It produced a list of proposed appointments which were roundly and soundly endorsed by everybody involved. For some reason, unbeknownst to me and to this committee at this point, Mrs. Norrie has seen fit in the present instance to come forward with nine names for appointment to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and the process set out in the agreement which she made with the advisory council has been ignored.
In that light, I, therefore, make my motion that we defer these appointments today until we afford Minister Norrie an opportunity to explain to this committee why that agreed process has not been followed in this instance. I so move.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: I will second the motion, Madam Chairman, and if I may, I would like to also make a submission on the motion. I would like to table, for the members of the committee, the actual agreement that was reached between the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and Minister Norrie.
I refer you to a memo dated June 29, 1994, that starts off with, "Thank you for taking the time to meet with Catherine Halliday and me on June 27, 1994. I would like to confirm the terms of our agreement:". Then it lays out how, in fact, that will happen.
If I may just take the opportunity to read the second last paragraph. It says, "After you have approved the list of new Council members and the Orders-in-Council have been made, we would like to hold a news conference to present the new Council. I believe that this event should be celebrated by the Council, and we would like you to attend.". That is clearly the reference that Mr. Donahoe has made, when he talked about the press clipping and the attention that not only Alexa McDonough gave the issue at that time, but the minister herself and others, that this is clearly an important process that we should all support.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there a letter from Mrs. Norrie in that packet?
MR. CHISHOLM: There is a letter here and I will table this when I am through. It is to Eleanor Norrie from Katherine McDonald. There is also a document entitled, Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women Selection Process for Council Members, which lays out, under the Selection Process it says, "The Executive Council will solicit applicants for Council. Applications will be returned to the Advisory Council. The first page of each application will then be returned to the Executive Council for their records. The Minister Responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women will make recommendations to the Council, for appointment by the Governor in Council, following an approved selection process.".
I will get this copied. I want to speak clearly in support . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: May I see that, please, while you are talking?
MR. CHISHOLM: Yes, when I am through here, I will get it copied. I want to speak in support of the motion because I think it was very clear what was to happen, and that there has been a change in that. I think it is important that the committee understand what that change is all about. I think it is important that many Nova Scotians, in particular women concerned about this issue and who have been involved in developing this selection process, understand what the reasons are from the minister.
Again I say, in conclusion, that this in no way is meant to suggest that there is anything wrong with the people who have been appointed. It is clearly a question of a process having been approved, having been agreed upon between the minister and the advisory council and there has been a change in that. I think it is incumbent upon us to determine why.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to have me call for the question now, or would you like to wait to see the papers that Robert has tabled?
MR. DONAHOE: Perhaps while they are being photocopied, might I be permitted a further comment? I noticed, Madam Chairman, that you asked Mr. Chisholm, as he was speaking, whether he had in his possession a copy of the letter from Mrs. Norrie. I am not sure if he does. The package of materials which I have, quite candidly, do not include a letter from Mrs. Norrie.
I would simply want to make this comment, if, by chance and I should not presume what might be in your mind as you ask that question, but if you ask the question so as to then allow the follow-up question, well, the absence of a letter from Mrs. Norrie confirming that arrangement indicates that Mrs. Norrie never agreed to that selection process, then that, I suggest, lends credence to the motion which I have put before your committee, namely that if, in fact, it is Mrs. Norrie's position that she never did agree, that there is no evidence of a letter back from her to the advisory council committing her agreement and she does not believe she ever agreed to such an arrangement, I believe, in fairness to the advisory council and the future work of the advisory council and the future appointment process relative to the advisory council, that it is fundamental, if that happens by chance to be the Honourable Mrs. Norrie's position, that we would have her here before the committee to say so out of her own mouth, and to explain, as I have asked in my motion, why the process, which I believe she did agree to, has not been followed in this instance.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
MR. DONAHOE: I gave Mora some documents, Madam Chairman, to be copied. You might want to just double-check with Mr. Chisholm as to whether or not the materials I gave her are those which he was reading from. I do not want to mislead.
MR. CHISHOLM: I just gave what I had to Mora.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I know you have a motion on the floor, but may I ask that, while we are waiting, maybe we could do the Department of Agriculture and Marketing. Any problem with that?
MR. DONAHOE: No, I do not have a problem with that.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I know we have a motion on the floor, but while we are waiting for some papers to come back that are being copied, and in the meantime if we have agreement with the person who made the motion and I am going to assume the seconder, that we have a motion for the Department of Agriculture and Marketing, please.
MR. BARKHOUSE: I move for the Maritime Provinces Harness Racing Commission that we nominate Alexander (Sandy) MacPherson as a member.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
I believe you all have had an opportunity to look over the documentation that was tabled. I am going to call for the question, please. Everybody understands the motion?
MR. MACASKILL: Could you repeat it, please?
MR. DONAHOE: My motion is that in light of the fact that the names proposed for appointment to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women do not come to this committee in compliance with an agreement reached between the Honourable Eleanor Norrie and the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women relative to appointments to that council, that the appointments proposed on our agenda today be deferred until the Honourable Mrs. Norrie has an opportunity to explain to the Human Resources Committee why the agreed process was not followed in this instance.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is defeated.
May I have a motion for the Status of Women.
MR. MACASKILL: Madam Chairman, I will move the appointments of the following people to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women: Elizabeth Blanchette, Karen J. Field, Patricia V. Flynn, Sharon E. Heading, Jean Catherine Knockwood, Ann M. MacDonald, Colleen O'Connor, Lisa Richard and Carolyn DiPenta Rizzetto.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Now, before you run off . . .
MR. DONAHOE: Madam Chairman, before we do run off, may I interject again? I would like to come back to the issue which we have just left. With Mora's help, perhaps, I would like to deliver to you and other colleagues . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is this the same one that we have?
MR. DONAHOE: No. Madam Chairman, I have just now delivered to you a letter relative to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and today's meeting. You will note that in the letter I indicate that I wrote to you yesterday asking if you would ask the Honourable Eleanor Norrie to attend today's Human Resources Committee meeting for the purposes that we were talking about a few minutes ago, to tell us why the June 1994 agreement with the advisory council was not being honoured in connection with the present appointments. You indicated to me in the House last night that Mrs. Norrie couldn't be present by reason of a commitment to a Priorities and Planning Committee of Cabinet.
In that event, Madam Chairman, I respectfully request that you write to the Honourable Mrs. Norrie on behalf of the Human Resources Committee and that you ask the following questions:
"Will she send to the Human Resources Committee a copy of the agreement, memorandum of understanding or exchange of correspondence between herself and the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, evidencing an agreement regarding the process of appointment of members to the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Such an agreement or arrangement was undertaken between the Council and the Honourable Mrs. Norrie in or about the month of June, 1994;".
I would ask that your letter further ask the minister if she will ". . . explain why it is that the persons proposed for appointment to the Nova Scotia Advisory Council . . ." at our meeting today ". . . were not reviewed, assessed, screened, interviewed and recommended in compliance with the agreement between the Minister and the Advisory Council;".
That you would ask in this letter further, that Mrs. Norrie ". . . explain why or how the qualifications of the three nominees recommended by the Advisory Council for appointment to the Advisory Council were not considered by the Minister to be sufficient to justify them being proposed by her for appointment to the Advisory Council;".
You will be aware that of the nine which were just now approved by the Liberal members of this committee, only one of those names was recommended by the advisory council, three other names recommended by the advisory council were not placed before this committee by Mrs. Norrie.
[10:30 a.m.]
Further, that your letter would ask the minister to ". . . make a public statement that, regardless of the reasons for ignoring the agreed appointment process in the present instance, she commits to ensuring that the agreed process will be followed in regard to all future appointments to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.".
I would appreciate that such a letter be written to Minister Norrie immediately so that the Human Resources Committee has a response from her when it next meets. I would respectfully ask that such a letter go forward from you as Chair of this committee.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I will send Mrs. Norrie a copy of your letter, under my hand.
Now, we also have to discuss what we wish to do for witnesses. We have from the PC Party, they have asked for Nova Scotia Legal Aid, Crown Prosecutors, Maintenance Enforcement Program, the Workers' Compensation Board and educational officials regarding site-based management.
From the New Democratic Party, under health reform they have a number of things listed: health care unions, regional health board representations, community health boards, the Public Health Association of Nova Scotia. Does everybody have a copy of this? Then why am I reading it. You can see it.
So, I would like us to decide who we would like to appear before us for witnesses. I don't want us jumping all over the place. I would like us to pick a topic and stay with that for a little while and then go on to another topic. So, if you have any questions or anything you would like to ask, please do it now.
MR. CHISHOLM: Madam Chairman, my submission includes health reform; the question of social assistance, the status of the move towards a one-tiered social assistance system in the province; and the final thing is the whole issue of a single options home and what the province is going to do about it.
The first one, of course, health reform has been a major undertaking of the Province of Nova Scotia and yet there are many concerns as to whether or not the goals are being reached, whether there, in fact, are gaps - many suggest there are - and so on. Included in that is the whole question of the intrusion of the delivery of medical services through private companies.
I submit to you, Madam Chairman, and members of the committee that I think it would be very worthwhile if this committee were to try to get some sense of the status of health reform by bringing together many of the participants in the health care sector including providers, consumers and administrators, and that our efforts to pull that information together might be somewhat helpful for not only the public of Nova Scotia but also the government. I have given a list of some of the groups that could be helpful in that process; undoubtedly, there would be others.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: You have all had an opportunity to look at the two lists, do you have a preference that you would like to start off with or do you want to wait until the May meeting and look this over and then come back at the May meeting and make a decision then? It is up to you people.
MR. DONAHOE: Madam Chairman, when do you expect we would meet again?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Our next ABC meeting is May 21st.
MR. MACASKILL: Madam Chairman, does that fit under our mandate?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. BARKHOUSE: The legislative mandate, maintenance enforcement comes under Justice.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Under our mandate is Labour, Education and the Status of Women.
MR. DONAHOE: I was looking for the list. Have you got it there, can I borrow it, Madam Chairman?
MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Madam Chairman, for those of us who live in the outback - according to the local news it is the outback - May 21st is the day after the holiday. As you know, we won't be travelling up until that morning, probably.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: All right, we will meet the next week, the next Tuesday, May 28th. We will meet at 10:00 a.m. if the House is in session and at 2:00 p.m. if the House isn't in session.
MR. DONAHOE: If I may, Madam Chairman, in response to the question as to whether or not certain of the things which the Conservative caucus has suggested fit the legislative mandate, I suggest that clearly they do. This committee is to look at matters ". . .
normally assigned to or within the purview of the Ministers and Departments of Labour and Education, and matters relating to the status of women,". I defy anybody to tell me that there is another program in the province other than the Maintenance Enforcement Program which relates any more directly to the economic welfare of women in the Province of Nova Scotia. It clearly, in my view, is an issue which relates to the status of women in the Province of Nova Scotia.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed that we do the Maintenance Enforcement Program?
MR. CHISHOLM: Well, it is agreed that it is appropriate for us to deal with it. But I still think we should look at health as the number one.
MR. MACASKILL: Madam Chairman, I would like to wait until we get something very definite on that before we proceed with making any commitment today as to what group we should meet with, probably at our next meeting, to give us some time . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We will make a decision then.
MR. MACASKILL: . . . to look over. So we can have a clear indication of what our mandate really covers.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I would like to say that health is under Community Services. Health isn't under us.
MR. CHISHOLM: It is very important.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: It is very important, I am not saying it isn't, Robert. I am just saying we also have things under our mandate that are very important.
MR. CHISHOLM: What is Ken's problem in terms of why we can't make a decision on some of those issues now? I don't understand.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Maybe because it is the first chance to look at it.
MR. CHISHOLM: Why defer it for another month and then we will have to set up hearings for the following month, and we won't get at it.
MR. MACASKILL: Madam Chairman, I am not quite sure whether Nova Scotia Legal Aid is under our mandate, Crown Prosecutors or the Maintenance Enforcement Program. I am not sure that they are under our mandate. For that reason, I would prefer to wait until May 28th.
MR. DONAHOE: With respect, if I may, every single one of those is the responsibility of the Department of Justice. Madam Chairman, could you read for the committee the departments that the committee is supposed to deal with?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Rule 60 (2)(c)(i), "considering matters normally assigned to or within the purview of the Ministers and Departments of Labour and Education, and matters relating to the status of women,". Those are ours.
MR. DONAHOE: Okay, I suggest to you without any qualms at all that Nova Scotia Legal Aid, Crown Prosecutors and Maintenance Enforcement Program are programs which absolutely bear on the circumstances and the role of women in the Province of Nova Scotia. I can - I don't have it with me today - come to the committee armed with communications from a number of women who have experienced difficulty with the Nova Scotia Legal Aid system, with the prosecutorial process and, I repeat what I said a moment ago, the Maintenance Enforcement Program clearly relates, in the main, to the economic welfare and prospects of the women of Nova Scotia as opposed to the males of Nova Scotia.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Any other comments?
MR. CHISHOLM: Did the Liberal caucus put in any suggestions for witnesses?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: No, they didn't.
MR. CHISHOLM: So, you did put in a submission, Bill?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I don't have a copy of submissions, no.
MR. BARKHOUSE: May I ask, was there a request to have the submissions for today?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, there was.
MR. BARKHOUSE: Was there a written request for that?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: It came from the last meeting and, yes, it was at the bottom. Yes, there was.
MR. CHISHOLM: If you don't want to deal with any of these, what do you want to deal with, or don't you want to deal with anything? (Interruption) Well, that's fine. They're good. I am always trying to be helpful. If you guys come up with some good ideas, we will deal with those. But in the meantime, let's deal with some of these. Let's not put it off, we can do it now, we don't have to ask anybody's permission.
MR. DONAHOE: Madam Chairman, if I may, the next meeting you have indicated to us is May 21st . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: May 28th.
MR. DONAHOE: May 28th and that is an ABC meeting?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, it is.
MR. DONAHOE: Is there anything to prevent us from meeting - and I do not even have my own book with me here - next Tuesday morning or two weeks today for the express purpose of addressing the suggestions made by the Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party, for potential witnesses for this committee, and we would take maximum 45 minutes or one hour to address those issues? Ken would have the opportunity to make his assessment in the meantime and we could devote that 45 minutes or one hour to nothing but settling on a future agenda as far as witnesses to the committee are concerned.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: All right, we will meet on Tuesday, May 7th at 10:30 a.m. and discuss then what we wish to do for witnesses.
MR. BARKHOUSE: Madam Chairman, would you be willing to accept further submissions . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. BARKHOUSE: . . . in the purview of the legislative requirements. Certainly everything that the member opposite has said is correct; everything that we do affects the Status of Women, but I think it has to follow within the jurisdiction of the departments that we are responsible for and I think we should look at further submissions.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think that on Tuesday, May 7th, we are going to sit down and have an open discussion on what we are going to do for the coming year, and that way all submissions will be in. That will give the NDP time to make changes if they wish to. Thank you very much; 10:30 a.m., Tuesday, May 7th.
[The committee adjourned at 10:42 a.m.]