MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning. I call this meeting of the Human Resources Committee to order and we're here today to make some appointments to some agencies, boards and commissions. To begin with, in our usual way we will start by going around the table and introducing ourselves.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: With that we can move into the business of today and I believe our first order of business is the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.
MR. TIMOTHY OLIVE: The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Farm Loan Board of Nova Scotia, Carol Versteeg, vice-chair, member; Stephen Healy, member. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Community Services, the Housing Authorities, Cape Breton Island, Frank Sutherland as a member, and in Cobequid, Zena Foster as a member. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Dr. Smith.
DR. JAMES SMITH: Mr. Chairman, Ms. Foster puts in her resumé, in her information, that she's working in an MLA's office, and from our caucus we'll continue to not support that. Although there's no remuneration, it's not a money issue, this is an issue of information and would be inappropriate that persons would be coming to an MLA's office and then later would have someone sitting on the Housing Authority on matters that might be involving them. I am sure, on reading the person's qualifications, the person seems qualified in many ways, I think it's just a matter of principle here.
The other person I would just point out is the President of the Richmond Tory Association. Mr. Frank Sutherland ran for the NDP in 1993 and ran again for the Tories in 1998. I am a little bit disappointed that he hasn't seen his way clear to run for the Liberals. (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time may come.
DR. SMITH: So on that basis alone, I don't know how I should vote, Mr. Chairman, on that one. I don't want to scare him off.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for that. Mr. Steele.
MR. GRAHAM STEELE: Mr. Chairman, it has always been my view that people shouldn't be disqualified from serving their government simply because of their political affiliation. I wouldn't want anybody to think that just because somebody was a Tory or a New Democrat or Liberal that that fact by itself was enough to take their name out of contention. In fact, I have also said that there are certain agencies, boards and commissions in which general sympathy for government policy in the area is something that should be considered although that doesn't necessarily translate into membership in a Party.
However, I think this situation, again - you know you have two housing authorities here, one is the President of the Progressive Conservative Riding Association and the other one works in the MLA's office - what it does, to me, is it sends up red flags. It doesn't mean that you should vote against them, but what it means is that you should ask more questions about whether, in fact, these are the best qualified people and not just qualified but of all the applicants are they the best. The problem, and I've said it before many times and I will say it again, is that this committee doesn't get enough information to enable it to decide whether these people are the best from among those who applied. I don't see how this committee can properly function without that information before it.
MR. JOHN HOLM: I don't know Ms. Foster. I do know Mr. Sutherland and, his current misguided politics aside, in terms of the responsibilities that he would have on the board, given the various activities that I know he was involved in terms of council and community activities within actually the Sackville area, I don't have any doubts that he has the qualifications. Whether he is the most qualified, as my colleague points out, because we
haven't seen the other resumés, we're never going to know, but I certainly don't have any questions but that he would be able to fulfill his responsibilities within that, and I might even point out that before he went down the road, he was not only a New Democrat candidate, but once upon a time he was the riding president in the old riding of Sackville. So he has obviously fallen upon hard times. (Laughter)
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact there have been some concerns raised on Zena Foster, maybe we could stay that name until the next meeting. I would still put forward the name of Frank Sutherland though, for Cape Breton Island, as a member.
MR. STEELE: I would like to thank Mr. Chisholm for doing that, but I do want to make it clear that I am not opposed to Ms. Foster; in fact I wasn't even planning to vote against her. Because of the nature of her office, I would just like to be more persuaded that she's, in fact, the best qualified and, you know she may very well be from among the applicants. I am just looking for more information.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: I think there was some concern raised at a previous meeting to similar situations that arose.
MR. STEELE: So shall we defer that perhaps to our next meeting?
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: To the next meeting.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's fair enough.
DR. SMITH: I want to thank the member for that. I think that's thoughtful, and I read carefully, a couple of times, this person's application. I, personally, wouldn't want - were we in government, or not in government, or just as of today, I would not want - my constituency workers to be on a board such as this. I would request that they would not do that. It would be their right to apply, but I would request, as their employer, that they did not.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So right now we have the motion for Frank Sutherland. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. CECIL CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Education, for the Agricultural College Foundation of Nova Scotia, I put forward the following three names: Richard (Dick) Huggard, Margaret (Norrie) McCain, and Sherry E. Porter as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Dr. Smith.
DR. SMITH: I was going to say that I really want to say that these applicants and these recommendations to this position are really, in my opinion, very highly qualified people. I think the Agricultural College Foundation would be fortunate to have the three of them there and I would like to say I am in support of these nominees.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. RICHARD HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, Library Boards: Cape Breton Regional, John Mitchell, member; Eastern Counties Regional, Kirk Stone, member; and South Shore Regional, George MacAdam, member. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Education, Saint Mary's University Board of Governors, John S. Fitzpatrick, member. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So moved. Is there any discussion?
MR. STEELE: A fine gentleman, a constituent of mine and very committed to community service.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I certainly appreciate those interventions.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Education, University College of Cape Breton Foundation, Scott MacAulay and Gordon M. MacInnis as members. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, for the Department of Environment and Labour, Blasters, Board of Examiners, Kevin Beaton, chair and member; and David Clark as a member. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, still under the Department of Environment and Labour, the Construction Industry Panel, Labour Relations Board, Patrick L. Bourque and Stephen C. Graves as alternate members. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. CLARKE: Mr. Chairman, still under the Department of Environment and Labour, for the Occupational Health and Safety Appeal Panel, I move the name of Paul Voynovich as chair.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So moved. Mr. Steele.
MR. STEELE: The Occupational Health and Safety Appeal Panel is one of those quasi-judicial boards that I've spoken about on numerous occasions. They have a very important job in deciding on the rights and liabilities of members of the public. Their hearings are formal, very much court-like in their procedure, and it's extremely important that the people serving in the position of neutral chair of the Occupational Health and Safety Appeal Panel be of the highest possible calibre and quality. I notice that this is a reappointment for Mr. Voynovich. I have said before at least once, and I will say it again, that in situations like this where we're reappointing someone to, really, what is an extremely important body, it would be useful for the members of this committee to have some information before them about whether the person is actually doing a good job.
Now I hasten to say I have no information that Mr. Voynovich isn't doing a good job, and to the contrary, but it shouldn't have to be up to me to make my own private inquiries. It really should be something that comes before this committee as a matter of course. There is another chair. Mr. Voynovich is a co-chair. There is another chair for whom I have the highest possible regard. Michael Hewitt is his name. He served on this appeal panel for a number of years, and is just about one of the best people you can imagine filling this kind of role. It would have been helpful, I think, for the government itself and also for this committee to have some idea about Mr. Hewitt's review of Mr. Voynovich's first term in office.
[9:15 a.m.]
Having said that, I certainly intend to vote in favour of Mr. Voynovich. My intervention is more about the kind of information I would like to see this committee have before it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, Securities Commission, Nova Scotia, I so move Robert MacLellan as chairman and member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Health, Advisory Commission on AIDS, I so move Larry Nelson Baxter as chairman and member; Janet Connors, Dr. Jacqueline Gahagan, Robert A. Marshall and Dr. Rodney David Wilson as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, Department of Health, District Health Authorities, District 7, Guysborough-Antigonish-Strait, I move Wayne Boudreau as a member; and District 9, Capital District, I move R. D. (Reg) MacLean as an ex-officio member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Dr. Smith.
DR. SMITH: Just to be clear, on the out-of-province appointment, Mr. MacLean from Dalhousie, New Brunswick, I noticed it was at the request of the Deputy Minister of Health. Is he replacing persons outside of Nova Scotia? I know the IWK Health Centre has quite an initiative outside of the province, in the Atlantic Region. Is this something new at the District Health Authority 9? Does anyone know? What sort of expenses would be covered there? I wasn't quite clear on that. I guess my question would be, is this reflecting a new makeup of the board, and have there been previous board members from outside of Nova Scotia, and what are their arrangements for expenses?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Olive.
MR. OLIVE: In response to the questions from Dr. Smith, it is my understanding that this is a non-voting position, but more importantly the fact that QE II Health Sciences Centre, as Dr. Smith knows, as the major heart surgery medical facility in Atlantic Canada, along with a lot of other major medical services being provided to patients throughout Atlantic Canada, it has been suggested and agreed to between the Province of New Brunswick Department of Health and the Province of Nova Scotia Department of Health that they, in fact, would have a member on the board as a non-voting member in order to maintain some continuity of communication between the programs being developed in Nova Scotia and how they affect New Brunswick.
That is the main reason for this - it can be called a change, but it's seen more as a positive addition to the board to allow the Province of New Brunswick greater insight into what's happening in Nova Scotia and how it affects the Province of New Brunswick.
DR. SMITH: I was just looking for information because I think it is a good move. I am just wondering, also, if the person was involved - and there is no indication of that - with the education program at the university, you know, at the medical school. I would imagine it's more to give representation relative to cardiac programs. In fact, I think if you're looking for numbers, it may be an attempt to have some referrals from that northern region which, being French-speaking, tend to go to Quebec or Montreal. As we know, we can't maintain the basic, core services sometimes. Dr. Ross left as a cardiac surgeon, albeit it was pediatric, because he couldn't maintain a practice; there weren't enough referrals. I think a lot of referrals from northern New Brunswick go west.
So I think this is good. I have no problem. I am just looking for more information and if we would expect more from other provinces like Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, and who was responsible for the expenses of that. I mean, if he hops on a plane every couple of weeks, who's going to pay for that sort of thing?
MR. OLIVE: A couple of other issues. One, this appointment is made under the Health Authorities Act, so I would presume that any appointments made under that Act would, if you're talking about financial implications, be whatever they are under the Health Act now. The second important thing to note is that the health services provided to New Brunswick through the QE II Health Sciences Centre are on a cost recovery basis. There's some advantage to the Province of New Brunswick having some input into the processes, and that's probably one of the many reasons why they would like to have had and will have, if this is approved, a member on the board.
MR. HOLM: You're probably right, but we're just - probably we don't know the actual reason.
MR. OLIVE: Well, I think I have given you a number of reasons why the person is there.
MR. HOLM: No, no. From your perspective, but not from the department's point. I am not saying that the logic that you put forward is not sound, but it would have been helpful had that come from the department as well.
MR. STEELE: Just to be clear, right now we're voting on just District 7 and District 9. Is that right?
MR. CHAIRMAN: District 7 and District 9, yes.
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. CLARKE: For the Health Research Foundation of Nova Scotia, I move the names of Joan Fraser and Dr. Thomas C. Larder as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. HURLBURT: For the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre and Nova Scotia Hospital: Linda M. Best, Garnet Burns, Terrence D. Daniels and Dr. Ed Kinley as members. I so move.
MR. STEELE: I was wondering, Mr. Chairman, if you or anybody on the government side knows what the criteria were that were applied to selecting these particular individuals, because for each one, for example, in Guideline No. 4, in the answers to the guideline, each one of them says, "The candidate meets the qualifications as defined in the criteria and guidelines approved by the Minister . . .". I am just wondering if we actually have those criteria and guidelines in our book that I didn't see, or if somebody else has them, because if we are being asked to approve people based on their meeting criteria, I think it would be helpful for this committee to know what those criteria actually were.
MR. CLARKE: To the best of my knowledge, these members are already appointed. This is an internal restructuring and this is just formalizing the restructuring of that, as far as I am aware. It is amalgamation, but it is more or less confirming the restructuring as far as I know.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, the guidelines note directing you to see Section 67(1), which is included in your package.
MR. STEELE: So these are section numbers from a piece of legislation? Okay, here it is - Section 67, yes - they are not numbered, so it is hard to say, but this is from - I can't even tell what Act it is from, but there is a provision here saying that, ". . . the Minister shall appoint the same persons to be the members of the board of directors of the Capital District Health Authority . . .".
MR. GORDON HEBB: It's the Health Authorities Act.
MR. STEELE: The Health Authorities Act, okay, so this is pursuant to Section 67 of the Health Authorities Act. The reason I ask, of course, is there was one in particular that caught my attention. He is the only one out of the four who is not a reappointment. So there is one person out of the four who is being added to the Board of Directors of the QE II Health Sciences Centre and Nova Scotia Hospital. When I looked at it I thought maybe there had been a mistake. I thought maybe this person had slipped into the wrong part of the book because - and I am talking about Terry Daniels here - his expertise is in mining, forestry and agriculture. If you look through his resumé, as far as I can see, the word 'health' doesn't appear once; all of his expertise is in mining. I thought, why is it that somebody whose career expertise is in mining is being proposed for an appointment to the QE II Health Sciences Centre Board of Directors?
Obviously, this is the major health facility, not only in the province, but in this region of the country. So you want to have people you are convinced know their way around the health care system or hospital system, but I am at a loss to see anything in his background that would suggest - and I want to be careful how I say this so there is no misunderstanding - that among the applicants he is the best qualified because his expertise, at least as he describes it himself, is in mining, forestry and agriculture, which means that presumably none of the other applicants had any experience at all in the health care system.
Of course, being a curious fellow, I went and checked the political donations and found that in fact he is a regular, but small, donor to the Tory Party, which explains something, at least. But I am just troubled by the idea that somebody could be proposed to the board of directors of the largest health care facility, the tertiary care facility in Atlantic Canada, and there is not one mention anywhere in his bio of any previous knowledge of or involvement in the health care system. It just seems strange. I am really hard-pressed to support that kind of appointment, really I am, without a lot more information about why he is being put forward as the best-qualified applicant.
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. OLIVE: I am not going to begin to try to qualify Mr. Daniels' nomination here, but I think it is important to note that diversity is a very important part of any organization, both diversity of experience and diversity of thought. The other issue is that under this new system of district health boards and regional boards, such as the Capital District Health Authority, it is very important, and it has been the objective of our government, at least, to ensure that we have people who have been involved in the community and have an awareness of community issues.
While the honourable member for Halifax Fairview makes note of a lack of direct medical expertise, I think the qualifications, the education, and particularly the community interest in community development and his activity in several community groups, would certainly provide that diversity of interest on the Capital District Health Authority, along with his professional expertise, which I would suggest would give him a very balanced ability for intelligent thought, and the fact that this individual could provide - again using the word diversity because I think it is important - a diversity of opinion in the decision-making process at the Capital District Health Authority.
So while I appreciate the comments from the honourable member, I do believe that it is not always necessary to have medical people, and I think Dr. Smith could probably qualify some of my comments in that I am sure he welcomes the opinions of people who are not directly involved in the Medical Society in discussing policy development initiatives. I would just like to add that.
MR. STEELE: I do note that I wasn't specifically talking about medical experience, although Dr. Ed Kinley has just about the best medical resumé that one could imagine. But the other two people being put forward - Garnet Burns, for example, is not a medical person, but has been involved for many years in the hospital foundation, his regional health board. The other person, as well, has similar experience in the broad health care system. I don't disagree that sometimes you need to broaden the perspective and that sometimes when people have management or administrative or business experience, that is a valuable asset to the board. What is really problematic for me is that it has nowhere been stated as being what the government was looking for. It is not in the legislation. It is not in the ads that were put out. If anybody could show me anywhere where the government said in advance that that is what it is looking for, I would say fine.
But the problem with what Mr. Olive is saying is that it allows you to say, after the fact, that no matter who you pick as the best qualified person, rather than doing it the proper way, which is to set the criteria and then pick the people - Mr. Muir, the Minister of Health, certifies that in his opinion, this is the best qualified person to carry out the duties of this position, and I just don't see the evidence that would justify this committee in agreeing with
that and I don't think this committee should be in the position of simply taking the minister's word for it. So it is my intention to vote against Mr. Daniels.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any other discussion?
MR. STEELE: In light of the fact that there is one person who I am voting against and three for, I wonder if we could do them individually?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly, we will.
DR. SMITH: I don't see why the member for Halifax Fairview has a problem. I felt that this gentleman made it clear that he was Director of the West Hants PC Association. He is Director of the Kings Hants PC Association and he seemed to feel that was positive. I know we need more business people in health care. I don't disagree with the member for Dartmouth South in what he says, but I guess those are the things that maybe make him feel he is qualified. So someone, I think, gave him some encouragement along that line. I don't have any more problem with this gentleman than I have with a few others. (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will go through these appointments and we will vote on the individuals. We will start with Linda M. Best as a member. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Garnet Burns as a member. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Terrence D. Daniels as a member. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Dr. Ed Kinley as a member. Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
That concludes Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre and Nova Scotia Hospital.
MR. OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Transportation and Public Works, Sydney Environmental Resources Limited, I so move George Hepworth, Fred James, John MacRitchie and Fran Morrison as directors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, the Treasury and Policy Board, Voluntary Planning Board of Nova Scotia, I so move James B. Henley as a director.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
That concludes our appointments to agencies, boards and commissions today. We still have some meeting dates as other items of business on our agenda. The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, December 18th, from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. That is because of the holidays.
MR. CLARKE: Is it possible to do afternoon meetings, just with winter travel and all that?
MR. HOLM: Winter's not here yet.
MR. CLARKE: Well, we just don't know from one day to the next. It's just, the way it is now for anyone travelling from outside the metro area, you are coming in the night before to make a 9:00 a.m. meeting. If you're staying in for caucus, you're here for another day. It means that technically you're gone - anyway, it's just a request. I think it's easier in the afternoons, then you drive in the morning, in the daylight.
MR. HURLBURT: I second that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Open for discussion. Mr. Steele.
MR. STEELE: I have no objection whatsoever. I just wanted to bring to the attention of Mr. Clarke that I had suggested something similar for the Public Accounts Committee, which was soundly rejected by all the members of his caucus. My reasons were a little different, they were more related to the age of my children and what hours you can get out in the morning. However, I am happy to support that completely, if he would promise to take back to his caucus my plea to reconsider the time of the Public Accounts Committee.
MR. HOLM: I am just wondering too, when you are talking afternoon, do you want it - I am just wondering if late in the morning might be better, even 11:00 a.m. (Interruptions)
MR. CLARKE: It was just a question. Sometimes a question is just a question.
MR. HOLM: Let's make a motion. (Interruptions)
MR. CLARKE: Maybe I will just stay that comment, Mr. Chairman. (Interruptions)
MR. HOLM: Should we make a motion and see if we can get a split in the Tory caucus vote?
MR. OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, if I might make a comment to the honourable member for Cape Breton North. This involves other schedules, other committee meetings and things like that. I would like an opportunity, if I could, to sort of review this as it relates to other things that happen in the afternoon on Tuesdays, because when members can't make a meeting we have to find someone to stand in for them. Tuesday afternoons may not be appropriate. We do have people who are available as stand-ins. I would like to discuss it with the caucus first, if I may.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The meeting time, from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. on December 18th will stand, but we will investigate, in the new year, check out to see if afternoon meetings would be appropriate and helpful and if they would work into people's schedules.
MR. OLIVE: I have no problem with the concept, I would just like to clear it with a few other members first.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. We just need a little more time in between. The next meeting would be January 15th, time pending, and then January 29th.
MR. STEELE: Can you tell me, Mr. Chairman, just exactly the nature of the meeting on January 15th? Is she coming in just to talk broadly about intellectual property or is she advocating some reform? Where did this particular meeting come from?
MR. OLIVE: I can respond to that, if you would like.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure, Mr. Olive.
MR. OLIVE: For the member for Halifax Fairview, remember we did have a meeting and we talked, intellectual property came up in one of our sessions here. To the best of our knowledge there was nobody around here who knew anything about intellectual property and,
to the best of our knowledge, there was nobody around here who knew anything about intellectual property versus the intellectual property laws that are in the United States.
I was aware that Christine Hirshfeld of Boyne Clarke is sort of the resident expert in this area, only through other issues, but it was interesting. I did get a call from her the other day after she talked to Darlene, wanting to know what this was all about. I indicated it had come up during our committee hearings on intellectual property for the music industry. She said it was very timely because she had just come back from, in the last month, I understand, the first Canadian conference on intellectual property with representatives from across the country. It is becoming an issue at the federal level. It's my understanding that intellectual property law could not be, or would be very difficult to enact in Nova Scotia without federal co-operation and accompanying federal law.
She is really up on this. She said it was a very interesting conference - she learned an awful lot about it - and that this would not only be a good opportunity for her, but a good opportunity for us to get the latest information on intellectual property and where it stands in Canada and some of the suggestions the provinces have made. The timing of bringing her in coincides quite well with her professional advancement in this area.
MR. STEELE: Thanks for the explanation.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So those are the meeting dates, and if there is no new business . . .
MR. HOLM: No scheduled meeting in January for ABC?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, January 29th, there are two in January.
MR. HURLBURT: What's the correspondence from the Department of Health?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): I just put that on to make sure that you all received the correspondence. I sent it out to everybody; you all have it. (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: The meeting is adjourned.
[The meeting adjourned at 9:43 a.m.]