HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

Ms. Diana Whalen (Chairman)

Hon. Judy Streatch

Mr. Keith Bain

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Howard Epstein

Ms. Vicki Conrad

Mr. Leonard Preyra

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

Mr. Harold Theriault

IN ATTENDANCE:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

WITNESSES

Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia

Ms. Darlene Grant Fiander, President

Ms. Susan Tilly-Russell, Chair

Office of Economic Development

Mr. Marvyn Robar, Director, Development Initiatives

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MARCH 6, 2007

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Diana Whalen

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Good morning. I'd like to call the meeting to order and I do apologize, we're a few minutes late. We don't have a quorum just yet, but my thought is that we'll get started. There are two members on their way who have called, so they will arrive. The only shortcoming is we can't make any motions until such time as they are here but I think we can certainly get underway and have a presentation and begin our questions.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses here today and perhaps I'd ask that the members of the committee introduce themselves and then our guests as well introduce themselves and then we'll get started with your presentation. Thank you. We'll start with you, Howard.

[ The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves ]

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Welcome. I'll turn the floor over to you and you can have a presentation to us for a short while and then we go to questions after that.

MS. SUSAN TILLY-RUSSELL: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and good morning everyone. On behalf of the Board of Directors and membership of TIANS we appreciate the opportunity of addressing you this morning on issues impacting the tourism industry - in particular, the issue of access. My name is Susan Tilly-Russell and I am Chair of the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia. I am joined this morning by Darlene Grant Fiander, who is our President.

I'd like to start my remarks by sharing a few facts about the industry. The Nova Scotia tourism industry is over $1.3 billion in revenue and it supports over 40,000 jobs. Visitors rarely use our social services; however, they do bring new dollars into communities and contribute to the harmonized sales tax revenues. Tourism-related businesses spread throughout the province are, for the most part, small enterprises with 80 per cent hiring fewer than 15 employees.

Tourism is a barometer of the economy, as it is dependent upon disposable income. Economic prosperity and the aging wealthy baby boomers who have both time and money to travel, will continue to feed the tourism industry. Historically, the 50-plus population has never had so much time and money. Investment in tourism marketing creates a payback to the economy and the government many times over. The remarkable point is that the province has few options like tourism where a positive return is first realized in the year in which the investment is made and that return continues for many years. It's an investment that generates tax revenues for the government, revenues that can be used to fund important needs for Nova Scotians - for example, things like education and health.

Tourism must be managed strategically as a true resource. Other countries have found that tourism is the panacea for their economy and are making major investments in infrastructure and marketing to ensure sustainable economic growth. We compete with premier world destinations, and our marketing and infrastructure investment efforts pale in comparison to the rest of the world.

Tourism is a revenue-producing resource industry. The Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage is a revenue centre. A new approach and investment in tourism would lead our province on a new path of prosperity.

So, what does tourism look like? What are the trends? Well, travellers are seeking out new destinations and experiences. They are using the power of the Internet to do research and to find that information out from the comfort of their own home. They will make more trips to more different destinations than ever before. Our current market share is very small and our competition is very strong. Affordable air travel and the Internet means that we are competing in a global marketplace against destinations like Australia and New Zealand and experiences like cruising - all of which spend many, many more times on tourism investment than we do.

The new global competitive environment has created challenges for us in Nova Scotia. We have to make sure that visitors can reach us by improving our air, road and ferry access, as well as having the right products for the right markets.

So, when we look at trends, what are the trends that are going to affect us most? Well, first of all, globalization is having an impact on environmental and consumer protection regulations. You look at the changes in the currency and the broadening of the European

Union, all provide new and reasonable destination options as well as liberalized aviation policies.

There are lots of changes in securities, many of which have been the news recently - things like visas, border control - and we need to really understand the impediments of moving people and goods across borders.

Taxation - some countries and states are providing tax breaks to the tourism industry. Others are taxing travellers, such items like airport departure tax and accommodation levies all need serious consideration and measurement prior to implementation.

Tax incentive programs like the Visitor GST Rebate Program are crucial to our competitive position and now this is in peril. This lack of understanding of the economics of this decision by politicians at the provincial and federal level has been a major concern for the tourism industry all across Canada.

As far as taxation and assessment, the tourism industry needs assistance to encourage growth and also to extend the season. Current criteria for business occupancy taxes are a detriment to small business and discourage year-round business activity and they also have the side effect of encouraging the underground economy. Safety concerns over crime, political problems and terrorism will be increased and tourists will seek out and visit safe destinations. So safety and economic stability have already become a product that will continue to affect market share.

When we look at technology, the most significant change is the evolution of the economic landscape as a result of technology advancements. The whole way that we plan and execute travel will continue to evolve, as will the way that we attract visitors. On the environmental side, a strong environmental ethic is at the heart of industry's future success. Destinations that demonstrate strong, sustainable practices and have a product that supports and protects natural assets will be successful. Market studies report that the consumers will come to a region that protects, preserves and celebrates its heritage and culture.

When looking at airlines and aviation, the liberalization of Canada's air policy will open tremendous opportunities for potential new markets. We're very encouraged by the federal government's move towards open skies. As a province, we need to strengthen our efforts to attract these new markets to come and visit and to do business in Nova Scotia. Holidays will continue to become shorter and more frequent, based on demographic realities. Travellers are older, sophisticated, wealthy and are looking for really unique experiences. Declines in birth and overall zero population growth gives us rich intelligence as to who our customers are. There are a number of constraints and barriers to the business of tourism and a lot of that has to do with infrastructure. The Nova Scotia plant is tired.

[9:15 a.m.]

Financial assistance is difficult to obtain from any source for our sector. For financing, the industry has found it extremely difficult to arrange financial assistance - we're talking here about loans, not grants - for capitalization improvements, succession and a number of different other investments required.

As far as human resource shortages go, the industry is facing a severe shortage and a major employment crunch in both skilled and front-line occupations. As the industry grows, strategic planning to meet its human resources needs is required. For example, skilled cooks are a major concern. Work to improve the apprenticeship system is crucial in filling this labour market need. Also, policy shifts that encourage year-round employment would assist in building the year-round product.

This brings me to today's topic, which is transportation issues and access to the province. Transportation issues are a major concern to the tourism industry. Although some significant achievements occurred this year - for example, pre-clearance at the airport and an increase in new flights, including the return of the very high yield Icelandair customer - Nova Scotia has to have a stronger commitment to access from all modes of transportation. Our ferry system, our rail system, our rural airports and our highway infrastructure need a strategic plan to ensure their stability and ability to meet the growth of both trade and tourism.

TIANS supports a provincial highway strategy that considers the economic impact of tourism. We need to have a filter that includes the tourism impact when we make decisions about road investment. The perception is that decisions are being made with very little economic impact considerations, and tourism should be one of the key filters in that decision-making process. We believe that the province should be lobbying the federal government to change the criteria that allows a percentage of federal funding to be committed to secondary roads. These are the roads that showcase our communities and support local and rural business. These are the roads that our visitors use. Some of the highways to Nova Scotia's star attractions are in need of significant investment.

The Halifax International Airport Authority has had a great deal of success in attracting new markets to use the Halifax Stanfield International Airport and, as a province, we need to assist with the in-market promotion to ensure that these new routes are successful.

We need long-term solutions for our ferry service to this province. We spend millions to attract visitors to Nova Scotia, and we've got a very vulnerable transportation system. Industry is continually dealing with possible cancellations or significant service reductions. We need a long-term, strategic approach. We also need to consider broadening the use of the rails as a way to get out and explore the province.

In summary, our concerns regarding access to the province are crucial not only to tourism but to trade as well. A healthy destination needs strong infrastructure to ensure access. We believe that creating policy and making strategic investment in all transportation modes would serve the province very well over the long term - one of the ways we could do this is dedicating the gas tax to transportation infrastructure. Land, rail, water and air corridors need strategic planning to strengthen access into Nova Scotia. Our future success relies on it.

Intermodal transportation is key to tourism success. Currently, there is little integration between the different modes of transportation and it needs better coordination and flexibility to serve its visitors.

In closing, TIANS has a responsibility to champion issues that it believes will serve the industry's interest over the long term. Transportation and access issues remain one of our key priority areas in our work plan. We have recently asked the Minister of Finance to address transportation issues and add the tourism consideration as part of budget considerations in road investment. We are also part of a small working group to look at long-term ferry solutions with other industry sectors. We have also asked the minister's task force to get the signage policy back on the table. This also is a transportation issue.

TIANS also has a standing transportation committee to advocate and advance some of these long-standing issues. TIANS is committed to representing the overall interest of a healthy and sustainable industry in all regions throughout Nova Scotia. We cannot do this without a healthy and effective transportation system in all modes.

Thank you again for the opportunity and both Darlene and I look forward to any questions that you may have.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr. Robar, did you have anything or are you just here for the questions?

MR. MARVYN ROBAR: I am just here for the questions.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, that is very good. We are awfully glad to have you. I just thought I would check.

Committee members, who would like to go first? Mr. Epstein.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Thank you very much for that introductory statement. It was very clear and very helpful. I have to say it was a very useful overview as to what is going on in tourism. Our focus today, actually, is on the transportation side of it but it was useful to have the overall context. I have to say that was quite a good look at it.

I do have some questions. I would like to focus particularly on the transportation side. I noticed that you talked about secondary roads and you talked, to some extent, about the need to have a filter that includes the tourism side of things when decisions are being made about various investments. I took it that you meant also on highways. Is that right?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: That is absolutely right.

MR. EPSTEIN: I wonder if you could tell me anything about the relationship TIANS might have with the Department of Transportation and Public Works. Is there any kind of formal or informal link? Are you part of a consultation group? Are you involved in any of the planning that goes on there or is it up to you to insert yourself into the system if you decide you have things to say?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Well, one of the specific ways that we are involved is with the minister's task force. Now this is a task force that goes across the various departments and certainly our Minister of Transportation and Public Works is there, as well as Tourism, Culture and Heritage and Natural Resources and a number of different ministers. One of the objectives of the task force is to look at issues that go across different departments, and transportation is certainly one of them.

One of the things that we have asked for specifically is to have them address the whole issue of investment in roads and when they are making decisions about what roads will be paved, what roads won't, to consider the impacts of tourism. I will give you some specific examples - some of our star generators, like Peggy's Cove, like Cape Breton and so on, have roads that really need absolutely significant work upon them. Again, what we have asked them to do is consider the impact of tourism when they make those decisions about where the investments in infrastructure are going to take place.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, but I think what you described to me was a group of ministers who talk to one another.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Yes, that is correct.

MR. EPSTEIN: But I am wondering about how TIANS has links to that.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: We have an opportunity to influence that agenda and we put forward to that task force. We had lobbied for the task force to be set up and occur and we put forward agenda items, and then we have a reporting mechanism back in place that reports back on their progress on how they are doing on those issues.

MR. EPSTEIN: You mentioned secondary roads particularly. Does TIANS have a list of priorities that you have suggested to either the Department of Transportation and Public Works or to the minister's task force?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: We don't have a particular list of number one, we would like you to pave this road and after you finish that, could you pave that one. What we are asking for is a filter so that based on visitation numbers, on volume of traffic and we've got a list of different criteria that we would request that they would filter any decision-making through.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, but if you applied those criteria yourself, you must have been able to generate, I would have thought, some list of priority for secondary roads, would that be right?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Well again, for example, some of the examples that I just gave would be some obvious first choices.

MR. EPSTEIN: I think we'd be interested in seeing a longer list. Have you generated a longer list for yourself?

MS. DARLENE GRANT FIANDER: We don't have a longer list developed but what we've done is, as Susan said, we've used examples like star attractions in the province where we have high volumes of people coming because we've marketed these destinations, we know people are coming, we know the traffic pattern. So we've asked the government to do that, actually, to say put it together and use that as criteria.

The sense out there is that when a decision is made or when we see a paving project, there's really no perhaps good rationale around it - that's the perception. So what we've said is, tourism and trade should be part of that filtering decision process at the very high level and we believe the government has the resources to determine how the filter works and how it is developed.

MR. EPSTEIN: Is this a new suggestion or is this one you've been making for some time? Do you know?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Well, the minister's task force - it was announced in late 2004 and I'd say in the last six months, they've had more formal meetings. We've just been advised that we'll be getting quarterly updates, so we've been kind of keeping it on our agenda with the Minister of Tourism. The Minister of Tourism is committed to giving us regular updates so this issue on transportation has been on our agenda. The minister's task force has been relatively new but that's one of the items we've been putting forth on the agenda.

MR. EPSTEIN: There was some mention of pre-budget consultation. Again, were you invited to be part of a pre-budget consultation, or did you volunteer?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: For that we were invited, actually, by the Minister of Finance, so we submitted a brief on some of the issues and where we would like to see some priority for this budget.

MR. EPSTEIN: I noticed that early on you said that the marketing and investment dollars that Nova Scotia puts into tourism, I think you said it pales in comparison to many other parts of the world. I'm wondering if you're able to quantify that for us? I wonder if you can indicate to us the kind of level of funding that you think should go into either the advertising or infrastructure investment here.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: I don't have a number for you this morning - we could certainly share with you. We have done research on how tourism fits as a priority with other jurisdictions and government agendas. We're not just talking marketing here. From our perspective, we need new investment and the infrastructure is the biggest part for us and product development. But when you look at other destinations with travel patterns and number of visitation, we don't fare. There is research to the CTC in terms of how that looks but I don't have it with me today, but we could certainly provide it as a follow-up to Darlene.

MR. EPSTEIN: Is that generally quantified as a percentage of gross domestic product or is it in absolute dollar terms? What is it you have in mind?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Well, what we've looked at in our own research is kind of destinations, the number of visitations they have. Again, GDP would be part of that. There have been studies done on kind of the top destinations and the type of investments they make.

Again, this isn't to us just about marketing - it is product development and it is infrastructure. We often don't think of the roads and transportation issues as a tourism issue and I guess our message, as an advocacy issue, is that they're very much tourism - it kind of cuts across most of the departments here that government represents - and that tourism needs to be considered, in terms of its economic strength and viability of the province in decision-making on infrastructure things.

MR. EPSTEIN: I think all of us are aware of some of the negative comments that were made, I think, in some motorcycle magazines last year about our roads.

Can I ask about the working group on ferries? What is the working group?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: When the possible cancellation of the service happened last year . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: The link to New Brunswick, yes. The Digby ferry.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Yes, the Digby ferry. A small sector group got together. There is in Nova Scotia, an association of sector councils that represent forestry, construction, mining, and as soon as that was announced, the implications became very clear for all sectors - not just tourism - because they use it to transport their goods. So a working group was established of those sectors and tourism was one and we're on that committee, to lobby and advocate for a solution but we've stayed together because part of the recognition is that we've done this a couple of times, where ferry service has been cancelled or maybe is going to be cancelled, and a lot of effort goes in it from industry. So it is a group of employers and sector organizations that are looking at long-term, advocating for a long-term solution and we understand there is some research underway by the federal government now on the viability. Instead of looking at this as a short-term fix, we need long-term stability in our ferry service. We need ferry service in this province.

MR. EPSTEIN: I think we certainly do. Is this working group focused exclusively on the Digby ferry link to New Brunswick, or is it looking also at other existing and potential ferry links throughout the province?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: It's got a broader application but the primary reason it got together was the Digby service, and then looking at what's going to happen in two years - long-term solution. What's coming out of that is the bigger issue of transportation and ferry access, so I think it'll probably maintain itself as a group because all those companies and the sectors have to do business all over Nova Scotia. Whether there's a new ferry being considered in another part of the province, they're interested in that.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. EPSTEIN: Do you happen to know if there's any progress on the hopes that Shelburne has to develop a ferry link to Massachusetts?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Last year the last we heard was that it is proceeding slowly, infrastructure work needed to be solidified. I haven't had an update in a long time, probably in about seven or eight months. We hear there is still interest and negotiations are underway for that.

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, thank you. I think that goes through some of my questions for the first round. I'll pass to my colleagues. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Preyra.

MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you very much for being here, I really appreciate reading your documents on tourism, especially in the identification of our assets and how we go about promoting them. I was struck by your comment about finding the right products for the right markets.

I'd like to focus more on non-traditional tourism because most of the reports we've seen in the presentation today, including the briefing documents, focus more on traditional tourism and certainly in my constituency in particular, Halifax Citadel, we see more and more non-traditional tourists. If you wouldn't mind, I'll take you through some of the questions in that area.

I met with the Minister of Transportation and Public Works and at the beginning of each session, he writes us a letter asking, what are your top six priorities for highway and bridge construction? I said to him, well you know I'm from Halifax Citadel, we don't have any of these large highways. He said, well then I guess we won't meet. I said well, I have other questions. One of the questions I had was about bicycle tourism.

A number of people have written to me saying we get more and more people who want to come to Nova Scotia and travel by bike. But the highways, particularly between the highway and the shoulder, is too narrow and would it be possible to widen that little stretch so that bicycle users can see more of the province? It's done in other parts of the world and in other provinces here and it seems like it would be reasonably inexpensive.

The minister says well, I'm not in that business, I'm there to provide car transportation and that's a municipal issue. What do you think we can do about infrastructure for people who want to travel by bike?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: I guess there's a couple of different ways to look at it. One is within a municipality and the other is actually on the secondary roads - when you talk about actually getting out and around Nova Scotia and exploring it. I think your questions are excellent, as far as how we can develop new markets. In order to make this work, you would have to have that kind of, again, infrastructure investment and commitment that this would be a direction that you would want to go.

There would be a couple of benefits - well, a number of different benefits to that whole strategy. One would be the whole issue of the notion of sustainability and green transportation which, again, would be good for not only visitors but also for our residents as well. I think the challenge there would be again getting the commitment to get the infrastructure investment to make that happen.

MR. PREYRA: There don't seem to be any champions in the process of doing that kind of thing. There is just kind of a bureaucratic division of responsibility that doesn't allow consideration of something like that.

I also encouraged a friend to bike from Yarmouth to Halifax last summer. He came down from Germany and got his bike, got in at Yarmouth and he came back and said it's so beautiful on that road from Yarmouth to Halifax but also very bleak. He said there are no rest stops along the way, there are big, huge gaps of restaurants - there is no food, really, along

that road for long, long periods of time. He said it is just a beautiful spot that he would not come back to just because it was so difficult to make that trip by bike. Is there any way of putting breaks in between like scenic look-offs or places where people can just stop to use a washroom or something like that.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: It is actually interesting that you say that because one of things that was identified in our transportation committee, when we are looking at the whole notion of roads, is not only the actual paving of the road but also the services that are available and the amenities that one can actually take part of along the road. Again, we are working here on trying to make, from a travelling visitor point of view, the experience quite extraordinary and these are, just as you mentioned, all part of that experience. So, again, that was one of the things that we have actually highlighted as something that has to be evaluated as far as what we have currently, where the gaps are, what we need and what would have to happen to make those investments

MR. EPSTEIN: I wonder if, with the indulgence of my colleague, Mr. Preyra, I might interrupt and pick up on this theme. It's not the first time this issue has come up with respect to tourism at this table. I have mentioned it specifically. I know Leonard is younger than I am, I will speak for the over fifty crowd here - the ones that you suggested are now the frequent tourists. We are also frequent stoppers at washrooms. (Laughter)

So I have to say that one of things that I have mentioned here before when we have had tourism representatives is that in Ontario and Quebec, there are province-owned roadside stops that are available with great regularity along the main highways. It is just a fact that it is something that is missing entirely in Nova Scotia and it has always puzzled me as to why this is the case. It never made sense to me and if you are right, as I am sure you are, with respect to the demographics of who are likely to be our tourists, let alone our own indigenous travelling public, it seems to me it is just a real omission from the amenities that should be there.

Is there any explanation as to why this continues to be the case, why we generally don't have these? I know there are small provincial parks and picnic parks but that is about the extent of it. It's not the same thing, and certainly not with the regularity or the frequency that one encounters them in many other provinces. Is there an explanation for this?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: There was a study done, there was a committee a few years ago - Transportation and Public Works, and Tourism, Culture and Heritage were on it - and they did a study of kind of rest stops and what needs to happen on the 100-Series Highways. I think the other key to that is too, resources are limited. We need to drive people to the secondary - I understand you want to stop, but there are a tremendous number of exits as well. There are communities just behind those roads that have what you are talking about, so it comes back to some signage issues again.

There was a study done on where rest stops should be developed. It started out from a trucking perspective, to kind of provide stops for large trucks and I don't know what happened to it, but it was for the 100-Series Highways. Part of that whole signage policy looked at driving people from the 100-Series Highways to the services they wanted and I think part of the implementation of that policy that was shelved very last minute, looked at some of those things in terms of services and providing those services to visitors.

MR. PREYRA: A follow-up comment on bikeways in the city as well - you know the City Bikeways Committee is trying to establish a continuous path running along the shoreline and they have had a heck of a time finding a level of government that would take responsibility for that issue. It is a great asset and it needs to be developed. The road from Halifax to Crystal Crescent Beach, for example, running along Herring Cove and Ketch Harbour and Sambro and all that.

I also had a question about seniors and people with disabilities. When the Supreme Court made that decision about same-sex marriage, for example, all of a sudden people realize well now here is an asset that we can use here in Halifax and we have quite a rise in the number of people coming here because we were accessible really to people with different sexual orientations. It seems to me that we can do the same thing with seniors and people with disabilities, if we make our tourism assets more accessible. We know that is a growing population, it's a relatively wealthy population and we have the bones here of a very good system. You know, I look out at Province House and City Hall and the Farmers' Market and we see people with disabilities struggling their way through, to try and get in or to find where the entrance is. It doesn't seem to me that we've incorporated into our design issues about access.

I know that you're looking at setting standards for tourist homes and accommodations and I'm wondering why it is that we do not have in our building codes a requirement that these buildings be accessible? I was surprised to find out that we have a case currently going to the Human Rights Commission, where the province is not obliged to put into these codes access, and it's not in there now.

My colleague was asking about coordination with government departments. Is the tourism industry going to make that an issue, making sure that public buildings and these tourism assets are going to be accessible to seniors and people with disabilities?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: We have an Access Nova Scotia Committee which is actually dealing with accessibility from a tourism perspective. There is a national program that is actually just being modified that will reward businesses that - and the thing about access, it's not just physical access. You know as people age and the demographics change, there are a number of things, in terms of being truly accessible.

Part of the issue in the past has been using a symbol that implied that you were accessible and really you weren't meeting the requirements of what true accessibility is. So Access Canada, thorough the Hotel Association of Canada, is actually launching a program here. It is going to be piloted this summer, where businesses will be able to participate and get a symbol of recognition, but it will be levelled so that it will be very clear to the consumer, in terms of what level of access the business is.

It is, again, good business practice if that's who your market is and people are looking for more flexibility in the size of menus, or whatever it happens to be. They're going to be the ones who meet the needs of the customers, and who are going to be most successful. So our approach to it really is ensuring that our operators and the industry have information of what they can do at their business.

My understanding is if they are doing a renovation, there are requirements to do it. It is to existing buildings where there is not. I know the provincial department is involved with this committee as well, so they've been very supportive of the whole access program and it is linked to the travel guide and promotion as well. So from our perspective, it's on our agenda, in terms of industry awareness and as a business best practice.

MR. PREYRA: Oh, I understand that, but could we not go a step further, especially with new construction and new buildings, to make it more of a requirement rather than an incentive? I can understand that with existing facilities you can't really do much with some cottages and things like that, but hotels and motels and tourist attractions that are receiving large amounts of government funding - could we not require them to incorporate disability considerations into the framework itself?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Again, my understanding was there are requirements for new buildings. I can't say exactly what they are but a certain percentage of accessible washrooms, minimum requirements do exist. I just can't tell you what they all are today but I'll certainly go back and have a look at that.

I'd be very surprised, with new developments, if there wasn't any requirement at all. I think this is true because we have operators call us because they're required to do it when they're building something and they need an accessible washroom and looking for resources or who to go to, in terms of who they talk to from a government agency.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'm going to move to the next speaker. We'll have lots of time, I'm sure, this morning because we've not a full committee, but if I could. Thank you very much.

I'd like to just introduce Ms. Conrad and Mr. Bain who've joined us in the interim and welcome. The next person with questions, though, is Mr. Theriault.

MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you for your presentation this morning. I'm pretty interested in tourism. I'm going to ask a question that probably was asked, kind of, but it's about revenue. We know that tourism took in $1.3 billion last year, which is on the decline some. Can you tell me, or maybe Mr. Robar could tell me, how much is invested back into tourism by this province?

MR. ROBAR: I think that's probably a question that should be directed to the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage. I don't have any knowledge of that.

MR. THERIAULT: You said you could get us some figures, I believe you said.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Yes, and I would clarify exactly with the department.

MR. THERIAULT: What is the take of revenue, out of the $1.3 billion, for the province? What is re-invested back into the industry? I think that is the question that needs to be answered.

I will go to a different thing.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: The budget, I think, is $20 million this year.

MR. THERIAULT: Reinvested back into . . .

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: No, that is the budget for the Nova Scotia Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage.

MR. THERIAULT: Out of a $1.3 billion industry?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Right.

MR. THERIAULT: Thank you. You mentioned a while ago star attractions. First of all, I want to say, you know things get old and tired; that was mentioned. You mentioned the two star attractions which are Cape Breton and Peggy's Cove. I have heard that since I was a child. Cape Breton is a beautiful place. I was up there just this past Fall, my wife and I; we spent five days up there.

[9:45 a.m.]

We went out to a place there, Meat Cove. I don't think that has been discovered yet, so that is something that can be looked at. We sat there half of the day just in awe; what a beautiful place. Not a soul around, saw a rabbit and a squirrel. A beautiful place. Peggy's Cove, wonderful place. Beautiful rocks out there with a lighthouse on it.

You know I believe we have something in this province that we even have a brighter star, a new, shiny star. I am going to table something here in a minute so you can all have a copy of it. It was given to us about 1997. It was given to us by Canadian Living magazine and it was a request to put in what makes your town the best, to be published in this big magazine of Canadian Living. It was the Town of Digby, the most romantic town in all of Canada. Isn't that wonderful? Great. I haven't heard 10 people mention it since 1997. Why? The most romantic town in Canada. Beautiful, and scallops to go with it. (Laughter) What a wonderful shining star we have down there and no promotion whatsoever. We stick it in our whale watch brochure now, what good that will do, what little we promote. But what a great thing. I always thought, when I was married, Niagara Falls was the most romantic place. Well, I went there and it wasn't real romantic to me. (Laughter) A lot of wax museums.

I have a whole document here on the most romantic place in Canada and I have two pages of pointers in here that point it out. I want to table that so everybody can see it. I won't read it all but I would like to table that. I think that is something that needs to be looked at in this province. We need another shining star to brighten things up because things are getting dull in Nova Scotia with tourism.

Before we start making parking lots along the road and start fixing the roads, we have to find ways to bring the people here. There is one way, there is one fellow in Gloucester, and I am in contact with him a lot, Senator Bruce Tarr. I have been in contact with him for two years. We visit each other. He is going to put a boat to Atlantic Canada, he said, come hell or high water and maybe not necessarily Nova Scotia - he will bypass this. But they are going to put a boat out of Gloucester because there was boat out of Gloucester many years ago, back in the 1800s. It used to come to Digby twice a month. The name of that boat was the Royal Tar, believe it or not. So this Mr. Bruce Tarr - Senator Bruce Tarr is quite keen on putting a boat back into western Nova Scotia somewhere. I don't know how it's going with the Shelburne thing, but I believe that is off track. He is looking at this province. He has been to see the Premier. Nobody seems to be too interested in these 15 million people he has access to from New York to Gloucester with a train stopping right by his boatyard.

So nothing seems to be happening there on this end and Mr. Tarr keeps calling me wondering why nothing is happening. We have 15 million people down here we can deliver to you for tourism and we can call it the love boat. They even mentioned that, coming to the most romantic town in Nova Scotia. That would fill her, I know it would.

MR. PREYRA: Don't forget Halifax.

MR. THERIAULT: It is Nova Scotia, period. We have to sell Nova Scotia, period, and that's just another star to do that. I guess my question is, why isn't something like this being promoted by TIANS?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: I think it is really important that this committee is aware of the Tourism Partnership Council. The mandate of TIANS is one of advocacy, assisting businesses with better business environment and advocating issues that are going to improve it for business. The Tourism Partnership Council is an industry-governed body that was established dedicated to strategic marketing for the province. TIANS isn't a member of the committee. Our role in that is to advocate and encourage and make sure that they remain focused on the goal of looking at new markets and the impact.

So that would be a question for the Tourism Partnership Council in terms of how they make the decisions, why they make the decisions. If something isn't being responded to, that would be the place to respond accordingly. This was developed a few years ago, so that industry would be involved in the process; that is the mechanism for them to be. We do not get involved in advocating where we should be doing. The rich research that is available goes to that committee and industry is involved in the process at that point. So I am not sure if that question has been directed to the Tourism Partnership Council on that issue from a marketing perspective. But how they make decisions, why they make decisions, how much they are putting in markets - that is all made through the Tourism Partnership Council.

MR. THERIAULT: It is all about marketing to sell something. You can have the best product in the world. If it sits up on the shelf and nobody knows about it, it will just sit there and rot away and that is where we have to go with tourism.

In P.E.I., the Asian people who go to P.E.I. to visit Anne of Green Gables, it is just a wonderment up there, the Asian people. Half of the tourists there are Asian people. I go to P.E.I. too, it is another beautiful place. How much money is invested into Asia from this province? I guess we can't get those answers from this panel.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: There is a Web site that they have, it talks about where they are putting their money and the marketing plan - we have copies of that today. I looked at your binder, it's included. The plan for this year is included in your package as well. So there is a plan for 2006. It does talk about the markets they are going into with the rationale behind them but specific questions, I guess, in terms of results, should go back to the Tourism Partnership Council in terms of marketing. That is their job.

MR. THERIAULT: Because I believe it is a great market. Look what P.E.I. is doing up there with Anne of Green Gables. I mean how many young Asians would want to come to Nova Scotia to be married in the most romantic town in Canada? I believe we could flutter, you know. (Laughter) There is so much potential here that is not being driven; $20 million out of $1.3 billion - why aren't we putting $200 million back into it, sell it and double it, $2.6 billion? I know we could.

I would like to touch on the ferry again, too, if I have time, Madam Chairman.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, you do have time. You have 10 more minutes.

MR. THERIAULT: The Digby ferry - we have a problem there. I think it is going to be a problem as long as it is in private hands because I believe the private company that is running that would like to see that ferry go away and have one little speedboat across the mouth of the bay there to Portland; I think that is the goal. I believe the more ferries we can put to this island - practically, Nova Scotia - the more ferries the better, of Gloucester, of Portland, of New Brunswick and wherever else we can bring people from.

The ferry boat is not promoted. You can talk - I know you can, I've talked to a lot of people in Toronto. I have family up there and they never hear tell of this Princess of Acadia going across the Bay of Fundy. They hear tell of this CAT leaving Portland down below them and coming across to Nova Scotia but in a huge city like Toronto, this boat is not known. That's a city here right next door to us so I am sure this ferry boat is not promoted anywhere else, if it's not promoted in Toronto.

I don't know if there is a question there, but I think that is something TIANS should possibly be looking into - how our ferries and transportation are promoted to see if a change can be made there. Put a push on the government to look at that as part of, if we are going to continue to try to keep that ferry and we have to. Transportation is a big thing here, that's for sure. We need that - that's the first thing we need, the ferry boat. Before we need the roads, we have to get ferry boats. No good of the roads, if we've got no ferry boat to bring the vehicles there. Anyway, that's enough out of me for now. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Ms. Conrad.

MS. VICKI CONRAD: Thank you for being here and my apologies for being late, as I was battling my way through traffic coming to the meeting when I got off the new twinned section, the roads were pretty slick coming in but I was still kind of making good time. When I got off the road coming down over the hill to the Rotary, it was just total congestion and I was thinking, if I was a tourist today and under a time crunch and thinking that I had given myself time to get to where I needed to be, if I needed to hit the bus station to get on a bus to continue on my journey, I would have missed the bus. So that was interesting to see how we have dealt with some of our infrastructure issues in handling our flow of traffic but when you actually hit the city and different types of weather, it completely changes that congestion. So that was kind of interesting on my way here.

I apologize for not seeing all of your presentation but I did pick up very quickly on your comments about secondary roads, and the identification and the need for that particular infrastructure to be invested in as a way to help tourism. Certainly I can understand and relate to that when I see folks coming into our coastal community of Queens and they want to be travelling along the Lighthouse routes and sometimes they are driving vehicles that are a little bit too large for the roads. They are not aware of what the road system is like and we

have actually had people in campers turn around before they reached the community or the next Lighthouse section, to go on their journey and have to come back out on Highway No. 103 and then indicate to local people later on - sorry, we missed this because we just couldn't get our vehicle down there, or, we're not prepared to continue on that journey because we don't know if it's going to get worse or better. So absolutely, secondary roads are very important.

I wonder if TIANS has been working closely with the municipalities, as well as the Department of Transportation and Public Works, in identifying those secondary road needs? I know locally the Department of Transportation and Public Works will get information from either myself or the municipality, in terms of what we're hearing from local residents as to the most pressing road needs but I'm wondering if TIANS also is getting input from other places and not just the Department of Transportation and Public Works?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: We certainly got input from our visitors' perspective and certainly, as you can imagine, we've had a lot of input, primarily concerns. We've certainly heard comments that echo the comments you have said about not just people in cars or bicycles but also RVs and their inability to go where they would like to within the province.

As far as working specifically with municipalities, I don't believe we have at this point. We primarily focused on the provincial level, from a funding perspective. Again, not identifying the specific roads but again going with the philosophy that there should be a tourism filter when you're making those decisions on which roads specifically you're going to be upgrading.

MS. CONRAD: Part of that infrastructure, as you've also indicated, is signage. Of course signage is also that marketing tool as well for products, along our secondary roads. If the signage isn't there for people or if it isn't clear signage, then we're not getting people off the 100-Series Highways into those communities.

I think that the whole signage issue is also a little bit convoluted in the sense that there are also municipal rules and regulations about what signage can be put up in some communities. So I think it is important to be working not only with the Department of Transportation and Public Works and the province and how we look at signage, but also working closely with those municipalities to perhaps look at ways that they can kind of open up their signage policies to market those products.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: You're absolutely right and it's interesting to note that for 20 years we have been working on the whole issue of signage. A lot of work had been done and a couple of years ago we were actually to the point where we had recommendations, almost had it bought into, and then, at the last moment, it sort of fell off the table and nothing ever happened.

[10:00 a.m.]

One of the things that we have said to the minister's task force is, let's get this back going again. It deals with exactly the issues you mentioned - the challenges of dealing with both provincial and municipal jurisdictions, issues of large billboards that are perhaps not in the state of repair that is conducive to creating a quality experience for our tourists or anyone, as well as actually signage directing people to the places, whether tourist locations or just plain, good signage to get people from one place to another. So that's one of the strong advocacy issues that we're trying to get exactly back on track again.

MS. CONRAD: I want to indicate, too, that I think that rest stops along the 100-Series Highways - even though I recognize that it is so important to get traffic off that series highway and into those small communities - if they can't get off into those small communities because of lack of signage, or they get there and need to turn around and go back out on the 100-Series Highway, those pull-off stops along Highway No. 103 would be extremely useful. Not just for our travelling public coming into our communities, but for those of us who are not wanting to stop into communities because we just have a direct route to take. It would be good to see those pull-offs somewhere along our way.

A question around other types of infrastructure and marketing of some of our products out there. The cruise ship industry, or part of the tourism industry, has decreased over the last several years in numbers - I believe that is what I read earlier, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm wondering if there are some markets out there that we haven't been tapping into, such as some of our ports and harbours in and around Nova Scotia. We have a lot of lovely ports with deep harbours that certainly can accommodate a large cruise ship; certainly not all harbours would be conducive to seeing huge ships come in. Once the ships arrived in some of these wonderful ports, then they are very close to the community - usually a town structure - and then they can kind of continue along the Lighthouse Routes, some of the visitors off those cruise ships.

Of course, to promote that sort of market, we'd also have to promote the infrastructure of our ports and harbours and some of them are in disrepair. So I guess the question is, are those sorts of markets being looked at, if they haven't already been looked at, and if they are being looked at, are the discussions with the Department of Transportation and Public Works along infrastructure also including ports and harbours and has this discussion also taken place with harbour authorities?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Well, I'll just say again, it would be a better question directed at the Tourism Partnership Council but I can tell you the gateway strategy and the Port of Halifax is looking at port of call and home port status and that's the big crux of it. They want to move ships into communities around Nova Scotia, has tremendous potential. I agree with you and it's very much on the agenda of the Port of Halifax, as part of the cruise association to develop new markets - and also very much supported, I believe, through

what's identified in the gateway strategy and I know the various departments are supportive of that.

It just makes good sense and it gives the opportunity of selling a different type of experience than they get when they come in here or at the Sydney port. So the cruise side of things has tremendous potential. Currently there is a study that is just going to be undertaken to look at the capture rate of the visitors. Research tells us that people who visit destinations via a cruise do it to experience the destination and sample it and that there's a significant return rate of those people for land-based destinations. That's what the research says. So the Port Authority is working with a number of partners, including the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, to do some research of the existing people who have come here to look at capture rates - I think that will give us rich market intelligence. You have hundreds of thousands of people coming, are we going back to them? Is there a possibility that we could go into direct marketing to them? Again, the Tourism Partnership Council will have more details but I do know that for sure, that it is very important and it is on the agenda in terms of port of call. But there is policy around that, there is regulation around that and that is what they are working toward right now.

MS. CONRAD: I think the whole sailboating community, too, there is certainly potential there to see that grow if we had small marinas to handle boats coming into smaller ports, having a place to pull up to, having that good structure in the harbour. We don't have that in a lot of our ports.

Another question that I have is around retailers - the small mom and pop stores that we see in a lot of our communities. Unfortunately, we are seeing less and less of these small mom and pop operations. I actually had a retailer come into my office a while ago to ask if there was some way that the small mom and pop stores could be included in the tourism package somehow? The question around that arose from concerns for this particular operation struggling through the winter season because, of course, we are not seeing a lot of tourism in the area. So this store owner is struggling with the fact that she may face closure because of all kinds of other expensive things that she is needing to put in place.

Her only good season is in the tourism season but, unfortunately, because of the signage and roads, tourists don't know that these small mom and pop stores exists. A lot of these stores also will promote accommodations in the area or scenic routes to take or places to stop. So the question to me was, do you know if there is any working relationship between the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage and small mom and pops so that the travelling public know where these pit stops are?

I mean it's fine for me if I am travelling around to a small community and I usually have my picnic basket in the back of my car and I am not really looking for that small store but if you are coming in to visit a community and you may think, oh well, I will pick something up at the small corner store, and then discover there is no small corner store for

kilometres and kilometres and you really don't know where the next corner store is to even make a rest stop or to pick up some item that you may need to carry on your journey. So is there a partnership with the small mom and pops?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: It sounds really like almost what you are describing is that of an issue of visitor servicing for our tourists is how do we find out the kinds of things that a visitor might need and how do we tell them about them? Throughout the province, there are visitor information centres - both provincial and municipal - and again that would be, primarily, I would think, the avenue in which that would take place.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: I just wanted to add, I think, again, it is a bit of a marketing question but the province's role is to market the destination and when they get here it is industry's role, and government's, to support how we service them when they are here, making sure our communities are effective. Policies help us, of course, like signage, et cetera, but you have to think, we are competing with world destinations. We can't be saying, did you know there is a store in Lunenburg but what we need to say is, when you come to Nova Scotia, you are going to experience everything - everything you need will be there. So delivering the promise is really what, at a very high level, when we are marketing either Nova Scotia or Atlantic Canada, that is the level that the customer is making its decision - assuming, at a very basic level, that they are going to be serviced really well when they are here.

What we are saying is that we need to make sure that we do service them and we deliver that promise so when we talk about our coastline, we have to make sure that they can access it and we have to have protection in place that ensures the customer can get there. So I think it is great to attract them, and we do a great job at that but then when they are here we service them in a way that we promised we would do that. It speaks to your question about businesses in communities.

MS. CONRAD: So then, where this would be a visitor service, would retailers then be encouraged to put their information forward to one of these visitor brochures to indicate that here we are if you are wanting to pull into - I am thinking more of those corner stores, those country corner stores that are not modelled after the Quick Ways or the form stores, I guess, is that correct? Those country corner stores that still have that unique service about them, that unique quality, that structure. The hub of a community that has been there for generations that is almost like that destination in itself when you walk through the doors and you see the old coolers and the old countertops and service is kind of still the same. They still have the big blocks of cheese in some of these stores.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: I guess your question, in some ways, is a marketing one. In other words, should they be in those brochures again, and as we talked about, sort of the marketing side would be the Tourism Partnership Council. There are a number of different vehicles and options for folks who are small retailers to participate in either on the regional

level or on the provincial level. So that may be the direction that may be most specifically helpful for that example.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Or tell them to go to the local centre and make sure that the people working there know what they have. I don't think we want 1,000 brochures of every - that's not, I don't think, the customer experience we would be advocating. But I think, as a business owner, they have to do what outreach they can to make sure that the servicing visitors know where they are or what they have so if there is a request they can refer them as such.

MS. CONRAD: So is there a cost for someone to be listing their information in a brochure if they wanted to be in as a destination because they had a particular service?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: It depends exactly on the brochure and what it is. Again, that would sort of be a marketing opportunity, depending on which ones they were interested in.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you very much.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bain, did you have some questions that you would like to ask?

MR. KEITH BAIN: Madam Chairman, first of all, I, too, want to apologize for being late this morning. I came from the beautiful Cape Breton that my friend opposite referenced and the weather was beautiful when I left this morning. It got worse as I came into the city and I do apologize for missing your presentation.

Madam Chairman, I probably won't have questions at this time but I would like to make a comment, if I could. It is concerning signage and it has been mentioned quite often. I guess this is a successful story. As everyone knows, in Cape Breton especially, and my constituency, the preservation and promotion of Gaelic language and culture is an integral part of their lives. Later this Summer or early Fall, I guess, there was a sign put up in Boisdale that said, Welcome to the Hills of Boisdale, and it was in Gaelic and it was in English. It was recognized by the community as something that they needed and, thankfully, the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage assisted in some way to get the sign erected.

The benefits are so great because now people identify the Boisdale area as being rich in Gaelic culture. It is going to make them stop and the signs are placed so strategically at either end of the community that people know they are into a Gaelic-speaking place there, let's see what goes on. That, to me, is a real benefit and I would like to commend the department for at least having the foresight to see the community's vision in this. I think it's a really good idea and it may be something we could see more often, too.

With that, Madam Chairman, I will leave the questioning to other members.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: If it's fine with the committee, I would like to ask a few questions in this round. Thank you very much.

Again, welcome. There are quite a number of things you touched on in your opening remarks and I was going to ask, as well, if you could give the committee a copy of that, if we could make copies here at the end. I have had a request that we would all like to see that because there was a lot of information that we could use again.

In your opening remarks, you referred to the visitor rebate program, among many other issues or stresses, but you said there had been a lack of understanding by the government, which is of great concern to the tourist industry across Canada. I wonder if you could speak more to that because I think this is something that could have a tremendously negative effect on our industry.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: You are absolutely right. As probably most of you know, the visitor rebate program, it has recently been announced that it will be cancelled. We are very strongly advocating that this not be the case, that again it be maintained. If you look at - and the whole notion, I'm sure you're familiar with what we're talking about there, this would be visitors from outside the country having the opportunity to get back the GST or, in our case the HST, on particular items like accommodations and certain goods and services and so on, that they purchase while they are here.

If you look at the top 20 countries in the world, all of them have a visitor rebate program. Canada would be the only one who is now stepping away from it, so fundamentally, this would make us non-competitive with everybody else in the top 20 countries in the world. It is simply bad policy.

[10:15 a.m.]

It is striking us particularly hard in Nova Scotia because we not only have - we're not talking about a 6 per cent GST, we're talking about 14 per cent, so the impact that this is having on many of our tourism operators is they have actually had to raise their rates by 14 per cent. That is a huge amount of money and that is often much more than what the whole profit margin is in the first place, so this is really having a direct impact on us.

There are three main areas for the visitor rebate; there is the meetings and conventions market, the tours and also the individual visitors. When the government made the decision to stop offering this rebate, they did it based on the information about the individual visitor. You may have heard in the media that they refer to things like, only 3 per cent of the people were actually claiming the rebate. Well, they have now come back to realize that first of all, their facts were mistaken, that it is not 3 per cent.

It depends, for example, if you had a family of five that was travelling, only one person would apply for the rebate but it would actually be five visitors, so when you actually do the math, it is very misleading. The other thing is that they also included people who would come across the border for a day trip. Well, since overnight accommodation is one of the key things for which you would claim a rebate, obviously they wouldn't be entitled to one but yet they are still in the large number in which they are still actually doing the division.

The main issue they had that was stated was actually the cost of administering the rebate. They said you know what? It costs us $78 million and it's just too expensive to administer. So what we have done, in concert with TIAC, which is the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, we have put forth a proposal that basically privatizes the administration of the rebate so that, in fact, they don't have to pay for the cost of administering the rebate at all, that they just have to actually pay for the actual rebate, so we have addressed their stated concern.

We have been, again, lobbying hard on all three areas. I think that we have had some indications that in the budget in March that is coming out within the next two weeks or so, we may see a change in view on the meetings and conventions and in the group because again, this was deducted from source. It wasn't actually revenue that was collected and then given back, it was just never collected at all. So there may be some change of heart about that but, at this point, we have not had any indication that they are looking at reinstating or continuing with the individual traveller. So our position in Nova Scotia, as it is at the national level, is that it is critical for us to be competitive - to have all three components in place.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: On the convention, and I guess cruise ships as well, what you're saying is those companies would be marketing the stop in Nova Scotia or the visit here to Nova Scotia 14 per cent cheaper than if they had arrived here and just bought it themselves.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL : Right.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: So that will have a tremendous negative impact. I mean I would imagine the cruise ships wouldn't want to stop here if the price goes up 14 per cent.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Well, you are competing for the business, so you have five companies competing for business and now a local company here has to hike their prices by 14 per cent in an industry where the margins are slight anyway. We have a number of businesses that had a few years of very difficult tourism. The motor coach business has decreased, et cetera. So, yes, they are 14 per cent more expensive, trying to get the same bid to bring business into Nova Scotia.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The other thing is, if we read you correctly, there is some indication that they might change on that coach and cruise?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: We don't know that. There has been a very strong lobby all across Canada and we have had some indications that they may be open to considering it. Again, our role, from an advocacy, is to keep the pressure on until that decision is actually made. Again, we haven't been told yes, we have just had an indication at this point.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: There was some embarrassment to Nova Scotia that our Premier was quoted, at least in the House of Commons, as saying that this wasn't a big deal; that in fact, people came here for other reasons, not for the rebate. I think he has backtracked on that comment now, to be fair. I am wondering about your lobby efforts here in the province so that your minister and our Premier fully understand the impact because you are an advocacy group so it would be fair to ask you what you have advocated or how.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: In the first press release that came out, actually, the minister did indicate at the time - I was in the paper, he was in the paper and the Premier was in the paper, and the minister did indicate it would impact tourism. There was a contradiction between the minister and the Premier in that article but the minister has gone to First Ministers' meetings. He has signed on to support and advocate at least the convention and tour operator piece be reinstated so we do have the minister's support. We expected and we have asked for more leadership, more public support for this issue. We have approached all the MPs - we have had our members approach MPs.

What has been shocking to us has been the lack of understanding on the issue. Even though it has been in the media and we have sent information, there has been good research done by chambers across the country and independent financial institutions in terms of the number of jobs and the drop in GDP, based on the lack of business. So that has been discouraging for us in that we haven't had more champions. It's great that we have had our department on side with it and representing it but this is a bigger issue. It's not a little issue, it's a big issue for Nova Scotia.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Have you any idea or any projection on what the impact would be to the tourist dollar - let's say your $1.3 billion revenue to the industry?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: We don't have the Nova Scotia piece yet. We have the national parts of it. Part of it, the difficulty was what would happen with the 14 per cent because of the harmonized sales tax and we don't have a clear answer, I guess, on how the provincial governments would respond in Atlantic Canada to that. Would it just all go? We are assuming it would because they weren't in place to collect it in the first place. I think the latest number, Canada-wide, was $268 million - over 6,000 jobs right off the top - but I don't have a specific Nova Scotia figure for you. I do know we have a number of tour operators as part of a coalition committee and one operator gave us what it would mean to

him financially. We have figures from a business perspective individually and how precarious some of those businesses are and how they just will not be able to compete, so we do know it will be significant but we don't know the total number.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think it would be helpful to us, too, knowing that if you anticipated a 10 per cent or a 20 per cent drop in business - if we could put some kind of magnitude. I can certainly see how vulnerable you would be with 14 per cent increase in cost. Certainly, the impact would be at least double here of what it would be in any other province, I would think.

I would like to ask a couple of questions of Mr. Robar, if I could, just because we have invited you today and I am sure there is a role for economic development in the issue of access to the province. I wanted to go to the area of Yarmouth, in particular, because the entry point in southwest Nova Scotia has been very much impacted with the loss of the Scotia Prince and the decrease in the number of trips made with the CAT even, splitting between two ports in the last year. What is the major problem in that area? Is it a matter of infrastructure not being up to scratch or is it marketing efforts? What is the problem about that entry point?

MR. ROBAR: I don't think there are any problems with infrastructure . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: It's not the terminal? Because it has been suggested the terminal isn't up to scratch.

MR. ROBAR: That could well be, but it is certainly functional. So I think it's just a matter of building the business.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is the Office of Economic Development working with the RDA to see what could be done to maybe reinstate a more regular ferry service there? I mean just a few short years ago, we had year-round ferry service, it wasn't even just the tourist season. So I think it has a huge economic impact.

MR. ROBAR: I'm not sure what the department's efforts are in respect to the RDAs.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: In your role, do you take an active role in any of the entry points?

MR. ROBAR: Yes, we've been involved with both the Yarmouth and the Digby entry point for Bay Ferries.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: And what would be the concern of the Office of Economic Development? What would your involvement be, if you're not working with the RDA?

MR. ROBAR: Of course we'd like to see that the links are maintained and grow to assist in the tourism efforts.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: And are there any efforts currently underway to see that happen?

MR. ROBAR: Well, the department in the Fall of last year entered into a funding agreement with the federal government and the Province of New Brunswick to maintain the ferry service between Digby and Saint John for a period up until January 31, 2009. It gave a period of time for us to look at different options, to try to put the ferry service on a sustainable basis and efforts are continuing on that initiative right now.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I do think that's very important. We actually had a meeting here at the Economic Development Committee to hear about the impacts to tourism and the fisheries and groups that rely on that ferry for their business.

I'm concerned because it's only a two-year window and we know how quickly that time will pass and then we'll be back to a crisis mode again, if nothing has been done. So the concern for me is, we've bought ourselves a little time and that's good but how do we ensure the long-term viability of that service?

MR. ROBAR: Well what's in process right now is, the federal government has sort of taken the lead on the file and Transport Canada is now starting an extensive investigation of the sustainability of the service, which will include hiring economic consultants to look at all options.

At the present time, Transport Canada is developing a consultation strategy in which meetings will probably occur during March and April of this year, to talk with all the stakeholders, all the businesses, all the local communities, truckers, the whole community, to obtain their input, with a view of developing a report sometime early to late summer.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Now these efforts are focused strictly on Digby, is that right?

MR. ROBAR: Digby-Saint John.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: What about the loss in Yarmouth, the fact that that was allowed to downgrade from year-round to summer only, or the tourist season, and then to infrequent and then we lost the big ferry. What about that? Has the department turned their eyes away from that issue? That could be something where the same kind of task force approach could be looking right now at, how do we revive service there?

MR. ROBAR: Yes, the department, in consultation with the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage has supported the Yarmouth runs - two services out of Yarmouth with support for marketing initiatives - and we're continuing to look at that on an ongoing basis.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Their number of arrivals in the Yarmouth area, way, way down in the last couple of years. I had it here - I can't see the exact numbers but perhaps it is off 40 per cent or so for the number of visitors. That's had a huge impact on the small businesses in the area, on the accommodations and in any number of ways. Also, our number of visitors arriving from the northeast United States is way down and that's got to be connected to the loss of that direct service from a populated area directly to Yarmouth.

So could I ask, are there any plans to revive some sort of an effort from the Department of Economic Development to see how we can just replace what was happening before?

MR. ROBAR: We have a close relationship with Bay Ferries and continue to monitor what they have done. They have reported to us on various statistics. It is really a case of having the Scotia Prince terminate its services. Bay Ferries is now trying to re-market the service and it's a question of building the business back up because people will probably hear about the termination of the service but then they probably don't know there's another service in place. It's a question of finding the most appropriate schedule times.

So they've had one year of experience and I think they said well, we think we could generate more revenues if the schedules were altered in such a way. I believe they've indicated that to the community locally, to show what impact that might have on the hotel business and the restaurant business. I think the company is hopeful that they can build the business back, over a period of time.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Are you referring specifically to them building it back with just using the CAT, rather than a bigger ferry?

MR. ROBAR: Yes, just with the CAT, yes.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Because the number of visitors, I found it has gone from almost 90,000 in 2000 to 43,900 in 2006, so that is a 50 per cent drop in the arrivals there. I think if they have just the existing CAT, it doesn't carry as many people - I don't they can recover to the level they were at.

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. ROBAR: I'm not sure of that, although certainly the CAT isn't operating at full capacity.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'd just like to signal that I think it is a real, urgent matter and there should be attention from our government to try and stimulate a solution - work with the community. I'm glad you're working in Digby, though, I'll say that.

On the access point again, I think again this might be for the department, for Mr. Robar. The idea of visas and passports and border security - is that something that gets looked at through your department?

MR. ROBAR: No, it's not.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Who would care about that, provincially?

MR. ROBAR: That probably would fall under the mandate of Intergovernmental Affairs.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Because it's more federally controlled?

MR. ROBAR: Yes, that's right.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I know I saw an article in the paper on the weekend where Mark Eyking had been speaking about the airport in Sydney and the fact that outside of certain limited hours they can't do customs and clearance and those sorts of activities. Has that been flagged as an economic problem or limitation for that area?

MR. ROBAR: Not that I'm aware of, in our department anyway.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: A different department - we're going to have to have a discussion among our committee about which department we're calling next time. I appreciate that it is outside your mandate, that's understandable then.

Just quickly on the industry, I have a few minutes left, to go back to the industry. I wanted to ask about the idea of co-marketing with our other Maritime or Atlantic Provinces and whether that's been something that you may have been looking at because we offer, in some ways, similar product, if you're talking about particularly Maritime. I'm not sure how much our visitors visit the other Maritime Provinces, but I would think there would be a good synergy for them to do a circle between the three. So, have you been looking at that and is that something that might provide an opportunity?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Well you're absolutely right. About two-thirds of our visitors actually come from the other Maritime Provinces or here within Nova Scotia. There currently exists, and there has for a number of years, a program called the Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership. Again, this is a marketing program that involves all of the four provinces in

Atlantic Canada, going with all the other marketing programs. It is not necessarily our core mandate, but it does currently exist.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Have you any idea what share of our marketing, say advertising expense, would be spent through the Atlantic partnership, rather than just directly? We know we're doing a lot of direct Nova Scotia advertising.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: And also, there's a lot of leveraging, too, of dollars between Atlantic Canada and Nova Scotia. I don't have the exact marketing numbers here. We can certainly get those but again, the tourism partnership council would be the one . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: As advocates for the industry, is it something you would advocate? Is it something you would like to push for - to have us perhaps pool our resources and do some really more major advertising by putting all the millions that each is spending individually, together?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: That is currently happening and it has been happening for over a decade.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: But we see Nova Scotia ads being rolled out, at some great expenses. Recent ones - I've been at an announcement about a year ago where they were showing those. Those are being rolled out separately, as a Nova Scotia ad campaign, so it is not exclusive. It is not being done as a group effort, certainly not exclusively.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Yes, and I think it was set up specifically for that way. Each province has its own mandate and interest and understanding of the markets that might attract. P.E.I. is a good example, where they understand the visitors and who wants to go to Anne of Green Gables, so I think there's a mandate at a provincial level but the shared program is where they could work collectively in markets that they know people are interested in the destination of Atlantic Canada. Then when we get here, the role of the provinces is to get them into the specific provinces.

We do have industry reps on that committee. I think it is at the deputy level, and staff at the department, but also we appoint industry representatives to be on the overseas marketing committee for overseas and the U.S. So we do have very knowledgeable industry reps there to give advice on issues and we reappoint them every year.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think my time is expired so I will have to turn over my time to Mr. Epstein.

MR. EPSTEIN: I have a couple of things that have to do with air travel. I want to pick up on this point about visas and passports that Madam Chairman pointed to. I think it is a real factor. A lot of our tourism, of course, comes from the United States and now with their

changed requirements, I think this is going to have a big impact. We know a very small percentage of Americans hold passports. They are going to find that this is going to be a big change in their lives in terms of documentation that is necessary. I was looking at the Airport Authority's projections for air travel this coming year and they are projecting a 4 per cent, almost 5 per cent increase in passenger visits. I have to say, given the change in American rules, I feel very sceptical about that number. I wonder if you have any direct contact with the Airport Authority? We were hoping they would be here today but they are not, so I am wondering, in your dealings with them, whether you have probed at a number like this and asked them about whether they have taken into account this change in American regulations?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: There is research that was done to the Conference Board and CTC, that talked about the impact of the changes at the border. They predict for the first nine months, you will see a change and then it will level off. We probably agree with that. The numbers at the airport have been one area of good news for us in terms of increase in the last couple of years in terms of where we have seen an increase. So I think the other thing that you have to think about is the people it is going to most effect might be the leisure travel in terms of a family deciding to go across border and then they have to think about what they need to get versus the business traveller who has to travel or has to come to do business in Canada.

The other part in this paper - it is called "Why Did The Chicken Cross the Border?", that's the name of the paper - it talks about the Americans' mindset on security is very different than Canadians and they predict there will be a better acceptance and receptivity to it. Once they know what the rule is, they are going to do it. The phasing in of the changes at the border versus the air have been somewhat helpful but the research does indicate the first year, the first nine months, you are going to see it but it will be part of the travel patterns, it will become part of what we need to do. The message we gave at our conference, it was given by the ambassador, which we kind of support as industry - it is a difficult thing to change because of what is happening in the world and the security concerns - so our message to industry now is be educated about it. Understand what your customers are going to need if they are planning to come here and actually the impact from Canadian visits to the U.S. was actually higher, which is good for us because we don't want them to leave anyway.

MR. EPSTEIN: I have to say I feel somewhat sceptical about the nine months. I bet it will take a lot longer before it evens out.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: It might but that's what the paper indicated in terms of the impact would kind of be shorter term. Well, we'll see.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, I guess we will see.

I have another question about the airport and it's this, we have links, a lot of people come by air, 30 per cent of our visitors arrive in Nova Scotia by air, so this is a significant

amount. We have had some problems - we have lost CanJet as a regularly scheduled passenger service and they were representing 18 per cent of the air passengers so that is a potential kind of blow.

I am thinking more about our advertising because we have links to London, in the Summer to Glasgow and Belfast. My list also says Frankfurt, Paris, Reykjavik; in the Caribbean to Jamaica, Cuba, Bermuda. Of course a lot of American destinations: Boston, Detroit, Newark, JFK to Florida, Chicago and so on. We have a long list of places that we fly in and out of but I am looking at our advertising that is going on right now and the Come to Life ads are running in New England, Calgary and Toronto. It seems to me that they miss a huge number of locations that we are actually linked to by air. I am wondering if you know whether there are plans to expand that to our other destinations or whether you think they have picked the right priorities. Do you have any comments you can give us to help us think about this?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Two points there that jump to mind. Number one, it is a marketing question so that would be primarily the Tourism Partnership Council. However, I will say this from an advocacy point of view - one of the things that I talked about when I opened was the need to have in-market support for these different markets when you put in those routes to the different places that you have just spoken about, the need to be able to support them in those markets, which would be an advocacy kind of role.

MR. EPSTEIN: Are you saying that's missing?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: We are saying it can be done a lot stronger.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, okay. Could you give us an example of how that would work? What should happen in Frankfurt, for example?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Could we actually be a rep? I know that the department has a project with the airport to support in-market reps or people who live in the community who promote Nova Scotia. There is a rep in New England, well you talked about New England already. I guess our point today is almost daily we are hearing about new direct flights and so we have to keep up with that and we need to make sure that we would advocate that our marketing efforts - some be dedicated to making sure those routes are successful. If we don't fill the planes, they are not going to continue to come. So you have to decide if it is business traffic, which might come anyway, or if there is a leisure travel component which would be very helpful.

The Icelandair is a good example. I do know they are putting support to help support that route again because it's not just Iceland, it's all the other areas that we have direct access to. I think there are 16 now because Icelandair coming back again in terms of the European

market. That's where we have seen growth in the last few years. We agree with your point, we are just saying we . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: Except I am not sure what we are being told. Are we being told that it is advertising or are we being told that it is someone on the ground who would fulfill a kind of counsel's role that would be both tourism and economic development? What is it?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Well, I think to be successful, you probably need both. Right?

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. I know we are in a rush and I will pass.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Preyra, I know, is waiting.

MR. PREYRA: I have three quick questions; one is about advertising. In 1995, the Premier announced an investment of $600,000 to increase air capacity out of European markets and Germany was identified as one of those targets. At that time, we had arrivals from four German airports: Hamburg, Frankfurt, Munich and Dusseldorf. Now we have only one summertime route. What happened? That is not exactly a successful program. Just from word of mouth, we know that there is a great interest in Nova Scotia in Germany itself and yet we are down to one summertime flight. What happened there and what can we do to promote tourism in Germany in particular?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: All I can tell you is that the German market - you are right, people are interested, Germans do come to Nova Scotia. Our tour operators tell us it is one of the fastest growing areas. I think it is another question, we don't like to defer questions but specifically there is a mandate of the industry-government group to deal specifically with marketing and I know at the ACTP, which is the Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership, we have an overseas rep who specifically looks at the German market and that is on their agenda, the route, the vulnerability of the route and the loss of direct flights into the marketplace. So I can't give you any more specifics than that. It is on their mandate and on their agenda to look at that.

Again, where we are seeing growth we have to make sure, like all our points today, we have to make sure that we can get people here. We have the access once we attract them and we are attracting them.

MR. PREYRA: Just to follow up on my colleague's question earlier, here we have an example of direct flights that are coming here. Obviously, there is an interest there and then they disappear. So something has happened there and maybe there is a disconnect between our promotion and marketing. I am sure there are other reasons for it as well but it seems to me that could be one of the reasons why.

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Or the promotion is good, you get them here and maybe the business - it has to make sense. It has to be a good business case for why a flight will continue to do direct business and it needs to have a certain amount of capacity at a certain number of months a year and so the job is to ensure that happens once you have attracted them to come. The attraction piece seems to be in place, but the business development after the fact and developing the route more, certainly why that happens . . .

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Some of the issues, as well, on those overseas flights have to do with scheduling and timing. To be able to be successful, you need a schedule almost nailed down, if at all possible, a year in advance because a lot of these go through tour operators and when they design their tours, if flights are coming in on a certain day and leaving a certain day, they will book all the hotels and all the tours for those dates. If then the airline changes the schedule to be different days, you have a whole issue from a servicing point of view because you now have hotel rooms that you don't need two days before, that you do need two days after. Again, what we're looking for is trying to get consistency in the marketplace so when you actually try to book these, they are things that make sense and can be bookable and maintained.

MR. PREYRA: I also had a quick question about data, and maybe this is the academic in me, but it seems to me that looking at the airport data we have 64 per cent of the visitors arriving and 36 per cent leaving. Is this data being cooked - in other words, are we using people who are deplaning and going off to someplace else, as arrivals? I know you're not in a position to answer that, but it seems to me that's part of the confusion with the tourism data - you know, the big debate we had this summer about whether tourism is up or down.

[10:45 a.m.]

It connects in part to this question about how we - and you were talking earlier about capture rates, for example - it ties into how we count these arrivals at Stanfield Airport. If they're coming here and flying off to some other place, they're not really tourists, even if they're sitting in the airports for long periods of time. I'm wondering if maybe some of the confusion comes from how that data is being counted.

I have one final question, if I have time, that is to look at Web access. You didn't mention it here but in your other material on your site, you talk about Web visits being up by 30 per cent. I'm wondering - and I think that is going to continue to grow, as you say - what does that mean for rural tourism operators who lack broadband access? We know that the government has promised access down the road, but what do we do today and in the medium term to put these people on the information highway so that they can promote their product, is there anything that we can do now?

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: Well I guess there is almost two parts to that question. One is basically from a marketing perspective, how do we get the world to know that they're there and again there are a number of ways. The provincial department has a provincial Web site, there's a provincial reservation system check-in which actually allows potential visitors to book their vacations on-line. Even if you're a small property that has absolutely no technology at all, that's accessible and available now.

The second part of the question is actually when visitors come and from a visitors servicing point of view, the whole notion of having high speed Internet available to them from visitor servicing so that they can use it and either conduct business or access their own information while they're there. As you mentioned, I understand there are plans to have the entire province up to that certain level. We're not there yet but they continue to again develop that and strive to get up there.

From a marketing point of view, if you're a very small operator now, there are many programs in place where you do not have to have technology, but you can be accessible to the world.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Theriault, you've got five minutes.

MR. THERIAULT: Just a couple of quickies, and nothing romantic. (Laughter) I know of a person in Ontario who flies into Digby every once in a while. He belongs to a recreational flying club up there and he gave me some figures one day not too long ago. A 500-mile radius out from western Nova Scotia, Yarmouth and the Digby area, the 500-mile radius which takes in New York, Toronto - the big cities because he is from Toronto - it is capable of flying here in these small single and double engine planes. There are 1.5 million people in that radius area who have a small plane or have access to one. He doesn't understand why that isn't being promoted more in that radius area - 1.5 million have access. He comes here all the time from Ontario and just pulls down the airport, rents a car and takes off. So that was something.

Another thing is, is any promotion being done out West now, in the Alberta area especially? I think we could give the people out there a package to come home to see their loved ones for a week through the Summer, it would be quite a good thing too. Has anything like that been done?

MS. GRANT FIANDER: Yes, there was a good campaign last year. Again, marketing, but it is in the 2006 plan. We have copies which we will leave. I understand they were sent out in advance.

On the tourism aviation question, we have had some inquiries about the private planes and using rural airports. We think it has tremendous potential - this is just off the cuff - in terms of that market. We know it's a growing market because of security and you are

right, there are at least, I heard, 500,000 owners of the planes and maybe 1 million people with access who want to fly to destinations within five hours or six hours and we are perfect for that. So again we will share that information and we will pass it on to the Tourism Partnership Council and we have been referring inquiries there. We have had some inquiries about could we be using those rural airports more for that type of development of aviation tourism.

MR. THERIAULT: Thank you very much.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Ms. Conrad.

MS. CONRAD: More a couple of quick comments than questions. It is so important that we focus on all of our strengths and what products we have to market here in Nova Scotia and I see that happening. There is a lot of work yet to be done but promotion in that marketing of our strengths are so important.

In Queens we have, over the last several years, been working on our festival and events component and we have really progressed in not only our marketing and promotion skills but rallying the community of volunteers who come out to really play a key role in assisting small businesses and the travelling public that come into our areas.

Just to mention a few of those festival of events: the Acadian Champlain Days in Petite Riviere. We have Privateer Days; we have the Caledonia Exhibition grounds and woodsmen competitions. We had a very successful Nova Scotia Music Week in Queens this past Fall. It was wonderful. It really was and I know the minister and TIANS were part of making that happen. We have the Hank Snow Festival every year, we are also home to the International Theatre Festival and we are now moving forward for our second International Ukulele Ceilidh in Liverpool, so we have really capitalized or we are trying to capitalize on those festival and events. Not only is it important for the spinoffs that happen for the tourism industry, but also the economic impact.

I have been seeing, over the last several years as well, small businesses developing out of the economic impact that actually happens in our area. It's very small - if you don't look close, you'll miss it - but I am hoping that with the Department of Economic Development and TIANS that there is that working component to help those type of progresses move forward. It is going to mean working closely with the Department of Transportation and Public Works to ensure that our infastructure is being addressed and it is also about promoting tourism within our own communities from one end of the province to the other and within the Maritimes. If we can't capture that international market quickly or to grow that, we really need to be growing our inside markets. So I just wanted to add that.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: I would just like to add a comment about what has been going on in Queens. As you know, you were the first super host community in the province

which is a really good example of a community pulling together and taking a look at the way in which we service our visitors and how to leverage off of the different businesses in the community and provide extraordinary service.

MS. CONRAD: It really is working.

MS. TILLY-RUSSELL: I know.

MS. CONRAD: And kudos to all of those volunteers. Absolutely.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The time allotted for our questions has expired today. I thank you very much for coming in and sharing your viewpoint with us and answering our questions. I know there are several items that I think you will be sending forward to the committee that our committee clerk, Darlene, can talk to you about.

I am just going to draw the committee's attention to a few pieces of business that are listed on our agenda today - several pieces of correspondence that have come in and requests.

I will start with the first one which is a letter we have before us which came from the unions. It is signed by three of our provincial unions, talking about wanting to come before the committee. They are asking that we call the Superintendent of Pensions. It is the last paragraph on that page; perhaps you've had a chance to read it - I hope you have. Anyway, it is asking to be on our agenda. Mr. Epstein.

MR. EPSTEIN: Well, thank you. I certainly support this proposal, but before we turn our minds to it, I wonder if we can just be brought up to date as to what our scheduling is. I mean we were moving through some pre-agreed-to topics and I am just wondering where we are in terms of what's coming next. (Interruption) Oh, have we finished? Every caucus has had one of their items gone through, is that right?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): Yes, well what happened was there was one that could not come in at all so we agreed at this meeting to review our list again and check a bunch more.

MR. EPSTEIN: Who was it who couldn't come?

MRS. HENRY: RIM.

MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, the RIM folks, okay. And that was a Tory caucus proposal?

MRS. HENRY: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: I guess I would have thought that it would sort of move to them first in that case, to perhaps nominate an alternative to that. I don't know if there's something that they have that would go because I think the two other caucuses I think have had a go, in terms of our topics . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: That's very balanced and fair of you to point out and I appreciate it.

MR. EPSTEIN: Absolutely, and no surprise, of course.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: No. Actually the PC caucus has given us five or six new items that are possible. It's one of the attachments there and maybe the last piece, starting with InNOVAcorp. So, Mr. Bain, is there a particular preference among . . .

MR. BAIN: Madam Chairman, I think Community Council would be our first choice.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Community Council, okay. So I think that is fair to include that first since your suggestion of RIM did not come through this time. That would still give us a number of months left in this series, taking us to June, that we could look at scheduling others.

So the request is before us for the pension plan, to have the Superintendent of Pensions and NSAHO Pension Plan CEO come. The other one is asking - and this comes from Michel Samson - the request to hear again from Wilson Fuels. I raise that because I was just clarifying, we did discuss that, I think. It was asked during this past month by e-mail to members of the committee and the answer had been that we didn't want to bump the Tourism Industry Association today. So we postponed it and said no, it won't take the place of this meeting but it still remains a possibility to invite Wilson Fuels to give the balanced view, I guess, from - we've already heard from the retailers association, now we would hear from a supplier.

MR. EPSTEIN: I think, in practice, what we've been doing is sort of moving through the caucuses, to allow them to nominate different topics. I think our next preferred topic would be the labour market issue and I think we'd like to look at trades and employment. I think it is listed as item no. 4 on our list, so . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Service Canada, NSBI.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, that's right. That, I think, would sort of be next rank from us.

I saw that item from the MLA for Richmond and also, of course, the request with respect to the Superintendent of Pensions but I don't put either of those at the top of our list next. I would be prepared to put forward the item of the Superintendent of Pensions in the next go-

round but at this point I think we would go for our item no. 4 and then see if the Liberal caucus, which is to choose, to use its list for that purpose.

I am a little puzzled about this. I mean having just dealt with the gasoline retailers, I'm not sure if it's a useful way for the committee to engage itself again with one entity that perhaps has a specific complaint. I'd be happy to receive correspondence from Wilson's - everyone respects this company and we'd like to hear what they have to say, but I wonder if it's all that useful. I think it would be up to your caucus to decide.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, if it's okay with the committee, I think what we'll do is take that request. I'm sorry, Mr. Bain.

MR. BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chairman. I agree with my colleague across the floor. We have discussed the gasoline pricing and there are other items here that I believe should take priority at this time. I'd like to, if I could, comment on the request from the unions. In the request, there is reference made to annual information reports and the Pension Benefits Act and everything else. I'm just wondering, should this not be referred to the Public Accounts Committee, rather than come to this committee, because we're talking specific money issues in here and I personally feel it would be better in Public Accounts than it would be at this committee.

MR. EPSTEIN: It's a hard one to decide. Public Accounts often looks at value for money and, of course, whether money is being misspent. The letter is framed, actually, in terms of suggestions of outright violations of a Statute and that makes it a peculiar kind of item for this committee. I think that point is well taken, so I tend to agree that it may well be an item for Public Accounts Committee. Perhaps you might want to chat with the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee and see if this is something that they might have the occasion for.

It seems to me that this is an important issue that they're raising but it is also not clear that it is exactly the one for this committee. Perhaps after you consult with the Chair of Public Accounts, if they - depending on the wording of their mandate - decline, we might consider it again.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think that's a good suggestion, but I think the issue they're raising is important because the suggestion in the letter is that these pensions plans aren't being properly reviewed and properly controlled or monitored. So I think that it does bear to have some legislative attention to it. I'll approach our Public Accounts Committee tomorrow, I'll be there tomorrow.

On the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association and Wilson Fuels. I'd like to be able to go back to our caucus, if I could, and we'll be able to communicate by e-mail a third choice for our Liberal caucus. Is that fine?

MR. EPSTEIN: A third choice?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, our first choice. You've selected a meeting - we have Mr. Bain's selection for the Tory caucus, you've chosen your top issue for the NDP and when I said third choice, I meant the Third Party is making a choice.

MR. EPSTEIN: You'll have to decide which topic you want, okay, I've got it. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. So we will put one forward and we'll let everybody know which topic we'll push for at the future months, then we'll let Darlene schedule them so we'll have something set. Our next meeting date I don't have before me.

MRS. HENRY: Well it's actually, because it's around the Easter weekend in there, I'm going to suggest either April 3^rd, which is before the holiday weekend, or the 10^th, which is immediately after Easter Monday, depending on how everybody's schedule is.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The House will be sitting during this time as well so . . .

MR. BAIN: We'll be here anyway. I don't think either date would matter.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, any preference?

MRS. HENRY: I'll try for April 3rd and if the witnesses can't, then we'll go with the 10^th.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, we'll give flexibility. Ms. Conrad.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you. Just about our package that we receive from witnesses, they usually get them to you, Darlene, whenever they are able to?

MRS. HENRY: These packages are done by this office.

MS. CONRAD: Okay, because I'm finding it difficult to get mine in time, before a meeting, if I'm not in the city. Sometimes they are in our boxes in the caucus office a few days before and if I'm not in the city a week before the meeting (Interruptions) Well, if I'm not in during that week before the meeting . . .

MRS. HENRY: Maybe your caucus staff can courier it down to you.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: There is just one final item before we adjourn. We have a response from the Premier on our motion that we put forward when the Nova Scotia Co-Operative Council and Ecology Action Centre were here to talk to us about alternative energies and wind power. Copies will be circulated right now, so that we can see that and see where that goes.

MR. EPSTEIN: I see that this letter was copied to the ministers involved. Perhaps we might copy it to our witnesses from that date.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, I think that's an excellent idea because I know they are interested in the follow-up from that.

MR. EPSTEIN: Oh yes, I'll bet.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: So that's very good. With that, we stand adjourned. Thank you.

[The committee adjourned at 11:04 a.m.]