HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

Ms. Diana Whalen (Chairman)

Hon. Judy Streatch

Mr. Keith Bain

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Howard Epstein

Ms. Vicki Conrad

Mr. Leonard Preyra

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

Mr. Harold Theriault

IN ATTENDANCE:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

WITNESSES

Nova Scotia CAP

Mr. Eric Stackhouse, Chair

Nova Scotia Library Association

Ms. Charlotte Janes, President

HALIFAX, NOVEMBER 14, 2006

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Diana Whalen

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'd like to call the meeting to order, if I could. We have certainly got a quorum here, we're just missing one member and we have regrets from one member. Just to begin the meeting, I'd like to have the committee members introduce themselves, and then we'll have our guests introduce themselves and you can begin with your presentation.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think we're missing Mr. Preyra, but he'll be right back. I wonder if you would like to introduce yourselves, as our guests, and begin your presentation.

MS. CHARLOTTE JANES: I am the President of the Nova Scotia Library Association and have been involved with CAP since it began, so a long history and passion for the project.

MR. ERIC STACKHOUSE: I am the Chair for the Nova Scotia CAP Association. I am also the Chair for the North CAP Region and, like Charlotte, I've been here since the beginning, and am still here.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I know you have prepared a presentation for us this morning.

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MR. STACKHOUSE: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, and thank you very much, committee members, for allowing us to speak today. I will be going through this PowerPoint, it won't take too long. Then we are certainly anxious to answer your questions and anything that we can provide to the committee, we would be more than happy to bring forward.

What I would like to do is go through a little bit about what CAP has been, where it began, why it's a little different in Nova Scotia and I think particularly why we're seeing the reaction of people in communities across Nova Scotia, particularly where there is less of a voice across Canada but I think I'll try to explain a bit of that, as well as give you an idea of where we're heading with CAP.

The other thing I would like to do is try to bring it down to what it really means at the community level, so I have some examples from across the province that might bring it a little more home.

We are now in our 11^th year. We had actually a 10^th Anniversary last year with all of our partners around the table and we had that here in Halifax. We also had a chance to honour 15 volunteers from across the province who had given above and beyond for the program and for their communities. We have had 11 years now of growth and success. The program initially began as a series of programs aimed at connecting Canadians to the information highway. There was Schoolnet, which was a partnership of Industry Canada and schools, mainly around connectivity, trying to get schools hooked up to the new broadband pipe. The Nova Scotia Department of Education, the public libraries - the first public library was actually hooked up in New Glasgow and it was actually the first public access spot in the province. Although they say that - and I am from New Glasgow - really it was Canso. I can say that Canso was actually the first one hooked up.

Then finally there was the Community Access Program and it was a partnership of Industry Canada and various communities. Over time, the last two in Nova Scotia have really combined forces to become CAP as we see it today. Schoolnet has really become much of the computers for school initiatives and other things like that. In Nova Scotia, the public libraries and really the CAP with the Office of Economic Development and the Department of Education and local communities and regional libraries have combined together. I think that's very unique in Nova Scotia.

Across the country, there has been these two sort of streams and I think that, in a way, has weakened the program. I think we have always been good at partnering in Nova Scotia and that certainly has been one of our successes.

Now the Office of Economic Development joined as the provincial partner shortly after CAP began, to become an agreement between the federal and provincial

government, so in a sense it has for the early years acted on our behalf, or acted on sites' behalf, and I think sites were very pleased with the very co-operative arrangement that was there.

I think in Nova Scotia it is a new program; not only in Nova Scotia really, but across Canada. What makes it unique is really like any other programs, you go to Service Canada or you go to many others - there is this very, very strict, here's what the money has to be used for. What Industry Canada did that was unique was said, well, here are the guidelines but we're going to be a little more loose in this and say look, you as a community, decide where you want to put this money, what you want to do with it. Of course you have to tell us and we have to agree to that, but it really let the community decide what it wanted technology to look like in its own area. Really that was because none of us knew what it was going to look like at the time. We didn't know whether it was going to be text-based, graphic-based. Were we training people, were we helping small business, were we working with seniors? So each community had the chance to take the money, partner it with other monies that it could receive and then move forward with its own vision.

Now oddly enough, as you would expect, a lot of them were very similar. There was very much a small business theme, particularly rural communities that wanted to keep their small businesses going. There was a concentration on seniors, for example, because communities knew they were at risk of being left behind. What occurred was it fostered partnerships between the volunteer, local agencies like regional libraries and development authorities, schools, really anybody in the community was there. In rural communities, as you know, and sometimes in low-income urban areas as well, you don't have a multitude of partners that you can pick from. There may be one or two that just happen to be strong champions in the area and we are able to go to them and tap into their experience.

So what Nova Scotia CAP was all about, then, was really to access the technology and the Internet, that was the first priority; skills development, and I would say that on a personal level, or on a business level, or on a variety of other levels; support for small business technology adoption. I could say, as Charlotte would be able to as well, that for many of the small businesses in our area, this was the first time they had ever used a computer, the Internet, high speed, digital cameras, Web page development, and other things like that.

Nova Scotia digital content and Web presence, we began - people in communities wanted to tell their stories. They were going online and finding - for example, to take an example of lobster fishery, if kids were going on and looking about things in the lobster fishery, they would find out all about it, Maine, New England Coast, and if they wanted to make sure that their community and their ecology and their business was represented online. One community actually did an entire Web site devoted to lobster ecology and

fishing, and that's probably one of the most accessed sites now. As a matter of fact, in the end all the digital sites have to be registered - local history - or should be registered with the National Library and Heritage Canada. Nova Scotia has the second highest number of digital history content sites in Canada, just behind Ontario and not very far behind.

The community identified projects to make the best use of investment and these could be anything from - if the community thought, okay, we've got a difficulty here, how can technology be adopted to help support that program or project? It might be something working with kids. It might be seniors. It might be that they lost a bank and they needed access to banking services. It could be really anything that was determined by that community that technology could be lent to because at the end, this program was not about technology. It was about people and how they were interacting and using technology.

So we went from establishment to sustainability. In those first years, Industry Canada called it the establishment phase. That was where you got your bricks and mortar in, you got your technology in, you established your committees, you got up and running to determine what it is the community wanted and, by 2002, gone from establishment to making a site sustainable with both levels of government. One thing the government didn't want to do is it had thousands of sites across Canada and the federal government, and the provincial government as well, did not want to deal with individual sites anymore. They wanted to deal in regional networks and also, the other thing too, they wanted sites to combine their resources to move ahead. So we were encouraged to form regional networks.

Shortly after that, we became 11 regional networks and those were really developed not because someone said, here are the areas that we have to form into networks. They said, well, what does it make sense to join with? So some are a single county while others, such as the one I'm from which represents Cumberland, Colchester, East Hants, Pictou and Antigonish, we just had always worked together very well, so it made sense to us. Plus, if you follow it, it follows the Sunrise Trail, a bit of the Glooscap Trail and we always had a bit of a tourism initiative there too. So it came about because of what happened and who the partners were we were working with.

We organized and the result was a three-year business plan released in January 2004. The key piece was to establish an association that included the networks and the main partners, and I'll just read you the vision there. "NS CAP is an integrated information and communications technology network which enhances our communities, ensures all citizens benefit from technology opportunities, and makes Nova Scotia an intelligent province." That hasn't changed. We are coming up to the final year of that three-year plan and really the vision hasn't changed. When I went over this PowerPoint

with the other chairs around the province, they agreed that really that hadn't changed at all, and we're still working on going from there.

What we have is 11 geographic networks representing the 279 CAP sites and their local partners; I'll say about 279. One thing that some of the sites did, they may say, you may have a site in a public library, but you may also have a youth centre that came about five years later and said, you know, we really like to do some after-school homework sessions and we need some help and support. So that CAP site would also take them on as a satellite, maybe put in one or two computers and support them, knowing that maybe the kids weren't going to come into the public library as much to do their homework, but they might go to their local youth drop-in centre.

So we were trying to get out and go to where people needed us. Some people went into seniors' homes; others, maybe it was a small store that maybe was more accessible and the owner said, sure, use our Internet connection, we're open and we'll allow people to have access to it.

We also now have one francophone community of interest that was a result of last year. They work within the 279 CAP sites, but what they have is a coordinator who supports the development of special projects that would impact on the francophone community. For example, we have a coordinator and they deal directly with our Pomquet CAP site, as well as ones within HRM and other places.

[9:15 a.m.]

Certainly, our very valuable partner has been the Office of Economic Development. The Nova Scotia Provincial Library is also around the table; the Department of Education is very critical, particularly through the public library system; and Industry Canada. I'll have some more to say about that partnership in a moment, but that has been, typically, the CAP association. As far as we know, Industry Canada still has a seat around that table. They haven't said they don't want it anymore.

The association is flexible and dynamic and can accommodate future partners in communities of interest. We wanted to keep it like the CAP program itself at the local level; it was there, willing, if others came forward, then we're willing to work and to listen. If you think it's a good partnership, then come forward.

The CAP picture in Nova Scotia. We have 279 sites, as mentioned. We have 1.8 million uses of a computer per year in Nova Scotia and we're pretty religious about counting those. That has gone up. I can say from experience, and I think Charlotte would as well, if we put another computer in a location, it will go up again. There doesn't seem to be an end to that.

What is occurring though is the user is becoming more sophisticated. We still have the interest from people who want to use a mouse and learn how to use the mouse - maybe they just haven't used it, but now they're coming in and saying, I have to download this to a flash drive or a USB and I don't know what this is. It's becoming more sophisticated as time wears on.

What's occurring too is that as you get more and more government services and government information goes online, we're getting more and more people where, if they call up and they're asking for help across the phone, they say, well, you can get this online and they will say, well, you have a CAP site or a library near you, you can go there and they will help you. Maybe it's a PDF, maybe it's an online forum or many of those other things that people just don't know how to use.

Over 10,000 Nova Scotians are trained each year. That's anything from using a mouse to maybe using a digital camera or whatever. There are 180 youth hired per year, especially in rural areas. I can say that some of the places like Meat Cove, there aren't too many jobs there for youth to come back to their community. CAP has provided those consistently and they've done some incredible work.

Thousands of unemployed persons have been provided with good work and skills experience over the past 11 years. We've worked very closely with Service Canada, through the Job Creation Partnership Initiative, and provided good work experiences for folks to get, particularly for those who have been out of the workforce for a few years, maybe it's a single mom or whatever. They come back and all of a sudden they have to know how to use technology. What we do is get them to do community projects and we give them sort of the equivalent of what was called the European driver's test - it was a way of ensuring that a certain suite of Microsoft applications could be used, and we would give them the equivalent of that.

So hundreds of community-based projects completed and, really, Nova Scotia is an internationally recognized leader in public library. I was talking with a friend of mine in Ireland and telling him what we were - he had been over at one of our CAP summits that we had - I told him what we were doing to try to save this program. He e-mailed back and he said, you can tell Europe is absolutely envious of what Nova Scotia has in terms of computer access technology.

There are places, we've had inquiries from the southern United States and other places, after trying to rebuild after the hurricane down there. They've been looking at rebuilding their public library system and they want to know how to do community access technology well. So they've inquired about Nova Scotia.

But in the end, for every $1 invested by the government, communities invest $9, and we know that. We've quantified it, at the request of Industry Canada and the

provincial government. So for a $10 million investment, the CAP typically runs a year, it's about $1 million from the government side, for the Industry Canada side.

Now to bring it down to, I guess, the local level, where it all counts. I asked our chairs to contribute success stories from across Nova Scotia and they sent in about 30, that just came to mind. I asked them to do it in a day or two, so they had to do it quickly. And then I had to choose about five or six from there, which is not always an easy thing to do, but actually, right now, we have a youth who we've just hired. We're going to hire when I get back tomorrow, to actually take those stories. She's a journalism student and she's going to take those stories and write them up so we can put them on the Web site. So that's the kind of thing we do.

They have a program in HRM called Bridging the Gaps, which brings assistive technology to adults with low literacy and learning disabilities and it goes on in a number of sites for within HRM. The LeBrun Centre CAP site in particular, they have one example. They have a person with cerebral palsy who came into the centre and could not really communicate all that well and it was affecting his life in general, and they were able to teach him text-speech software, so he could type his thoughts and then the computer reads them aloud, in a constant stream. So all of a sudden he was able to communicate. That's the type of thing that was going on within that program.

The Yarmouth Library and CAP site, Simply Accounting for small business. One of the volunteers in the CAP committee was Becky Cottreau of Cassa Business Supplies and what she volunteered to do was train business people who came in on entry-level Simply Accounting. They didn't want a long course at community college, but they wanted to get involved. These were small-business people who just needed to get up and running, and she has now trained over 40 businesses and individuals and that's through the Yarmouth Library.

Meat Cove, to go back to that one - Meat Cove and Glendale. Two-way, high-speed Internet satellite systems were installed at both CAP sites. There is no high-speed access or broadband access there. So these are the only high-speed "nodes" in these communities. Several people, youth and unemployed, have been hired to work on community technology projects, including local Web information. Tourists can now stop and stay connected while travelling and research other Nova Scotia tourism information. So those people - that Internet satellite system would not be in place without CAP. Those people would not have been able to be employed, and I think it really just allows a local community to stay connected to a larger initiative.

The Upper Big Tracadie CAP site. A youth, Maryam Rasheed, was employed to assist people use the site in the summer, and to help train community members. She was able to work in her own rural community, contribute something back to her community and earn money to return to college. There aren't a lot of jobs in Upper Big Tracadie, on

average, for students in the summer, but it gave her a chance to work in her own community. Actually what she did - where I got this from - she actually wrote a testimonial at the end of her work placement. And some of them - in our area, North CAP - we actually video. We had one youth video them all and tell where they're going back to, why they thought this was important work here and to really get an indication of it.

Now this one, I guess it's personal to me because I've worked very closely with River John Library and Innovation Centre. The community after working with CAP actually invested $600,000. They took out a partial mortgage. Because it's a public library, the county was willing to enter into a 15-year lease, for the rental, for a public library and CAP site, and it was a $600,000 investment for a new building. Now what that does is ,we have an office there that draws small-business counsellors, employment counsellors, and Service Nova Scotia out to the area. They never had a small-business counsellor go to River John before. Now they have one going twice a month and working with small business there, because we were able to give them a technology space that was professional, had faxes, phones, all those other things.

The community then went on and wanted to build what they termed a virtual village, www.riverjohn.com, and it provides an online presence for all businesses and service groups in the area. When we went to our regional development authority, we said, the community wants to do this, how many businesses do you think are in the area? They said, probably about 25. We sent a youth around with a couple of volunteers, and they found 80. There are 80 businesses working within that community. They now all have a Web presence.

We have several online collections of local history and ecology, and they were the folks who wanted to do the lobster project, by the way. They've just finished a Come to Visit, Come to Stay multimedia CD, produced, and it's now mailed all over the world. So people go on the Web site, request it, and it's mailed out to them at no charge. The other thing, too, is the fellow who worked on that - it was a job creation partnership through Service Canada - he actually was unemployed at the time, and his wife ran a lavender farm. Now he's actually in the business of doing this, he's doing it now for other communities. So while he was there, he learned how to do this.

The CAP committee has assisted a wireless Internet provider start-up in Pictou County that is now offering service along the North Shore. That was done without any government grants. This was a local company that did two-way communications and he wanted to get into the Internet service provision. He now has, I believe, about 50 customers along the North Shore of Nova Scotia, and he's hooking up more. River John just wanted to be first on the list, so what they did was they actually took some of the money that they had made, and they put it forward there to help him get going.

Then from the Windsor CAP site, from Charlotte's area, and this was contributed by Catherine Neily, who e-mailed this in:

"The fact is that without the CAP Program, I probably would not have made it to college. My first trip to the campus when I decided to apply, was an event that I heard about through connections to CAP. I learned how to do my resume that was a required part of the college application at the CAP site and I took several courses there about the Windows operating system and Microsoft Word. But most importantly, it was through participation in the CAP site that I conceived that taking post secondary education was a reasonable thing for me to do. Without CAP I wouldn't be where I am today."

What we've created, in a sense - or not what we've created but, really, what Industry Canada has created is a house of cards. At the end of the establishment phase of CAP, Industry Canada provided $1.3 million to CAP Nova Scotia, and I think that was a good amount. It allowed us to do the things that we wanted to do, but over the past three years it has been whittled away to $370,000 with the promise each year of a review of the program. We've had three years of promise, saying we're going to review this program and we'll let you know. Every year, they've just taken it down a notch, taken it down a notch; oh, well, here's enough to survive, and you get into this cycle.

It's not sufficient to fund a province-wide technology program. Without federal involvement, we believe the provincial contribution will falter. Then our local partners will disappear. It takes all pieces of the puzzle to make this work. Volunteers have told us that they want to be connected to a Canadian vision of community development. That's very important. We did focus groups with the volunteers, and they said, we really like being part of something bigger.

We're also concerned about the CAP Youth Investment contribution from Industry Canada that employs so many youth, especially in rural and low-income areas that rarely see employment opportunities.

But CAP has a future. We have continued technology access, broadened to include 24/7 wireless, plus new and emerging technologies. We're now in the process of putting wireless 24/7 hot spots around all of the CAP sites, at least all the libraries first, including most of the CAP sites, so people could just drive up, hook on, if they're travelling on business, travelling as tourists, or anyone.

A strengthened volunteer base to keep innovation growing at the local community level. This has not been easy for volunteers to have this up and down for over three years. The provincial partner has been very steadfast, that has always been there, and we understand from the government that there is interest in continuing, but it has been very

hard, from Industry Canada, this up and down. They care about operating in their CAP sites, they don't always care about all the reasons why things get reviewed five times a year in over three years.

We'd like to do better marketing and promotion, especially to tourists and business travellers so they could stay connected in Nova Scotia. You see the @ symbols on the highways now, and what we need next is to get you off the highways once you see the @ symbols and go into the towns, we need that piece connected, as well. Thanks to OED and the Department of Transportation and Public Works, we were able to get that done, the first in Canada, I believe, to do that. Continued community projects such as small-business training, online content creation, youth employment, skills development, and what we really want to do is make Nova Scotia a leader in community-based technology.

In summary, the Community Access Program has become the community's access program, relying on all partners to build a bright future. I think really the core of it is that Industry Canada in Ottawa thought it had this program that they called CAP but they hadn't realized that the community had taken ownership of it and, all of a sudden, it wasn't theirs anymore. I think that's why, really in the end, you had this big outcry when people felt the decision was being made without due consideration and others. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for that. It was very comprehensive. I have certainly learned a lot more about the background of the program today. What I was going to do today, I mentioned that I'm going to be more rigid today in our timing, because in the last two meetings we've run out of time for our questions, so I wanted to do it by caucus today, and start with the Progressive Conservative caucus, with maybe 15 minutes in the first round and then we'll have time for successive rounds. So if you would like, Ms. Streatch.

[9:30 a.m.]

HON. JUDY STREATCH: Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. We'll all do our very best to stay within those time frames you have given us, so I'll get right in.

Thank you very much for the presentation, very in-depth. I couldn't agree more than with your last statement about the communities, indeed, feeling ownership and feeling very defensive and very protective of this program. I represent an area that's quite rural in certain aspects of it. I can't imagine what our communities would do without our CAP sites. In my own community of New Ross, we do not have high-speed Internet, despite my efforts and my constant nagging and my continued work, and will continue to push for that. Without that, the CAP site really is the centre point and the heart for a

lot of the businesses, the schools. Ours is actually located at the Ross Farm Museum, so, indeed, it does respond to the needs of the tourists as well as the locals.

I know from a personal point of view, as the MLA, I have written my Member of Parliament, I have spoken to Minister MacKay and other federal members, other federal ministers, encouraging them to maintain the funding. I'm sure everyone around this table has done their part in that regard, as well. If I may, Madam Chairman, I don't think I would be out of line to say that you're likely preaching to the converted, that we are all totally committed to these programs and certainly want to do what we can.

So I guess I have a couple of quick bats for you. The first one is, what has the reaction been? You've gone through a lot, but I guess I'm looking for what have groups, what has the government, what have we come to the table with, what have we said, here's what we're now prepared to do? So that's the first part of my question. My second part is, from there, what more can we do?

Madam Chairman, I'm sure that at the end of this meeting there will be some type of motion regarding an urge to write a letter or contact our federal counterparts and urge them to continue this funding, and we'll perhaps put a motion on the floor in a bit. I guess I'm looking for your response to those two questions first.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Well, certainly from the community side, I understand that about 90 per cent of the correspondence to Industry Canada and Ottawa is from Nova Scotia regarding the fate of the CAP program, so that really took them aback. The public has written letters, they have phoned their MPs, they have put letters to the editor, they have been very vocal. Certainly, both provincial and federal MPs have heard that. There has been a lot of press coverage. It was a story with legs, so it managed to make the press and continues to make the press.

The reaction from the provincial government, we've had ongoing discussions with our partner at OED, though the CAP coordinator, and have had assurances from Minister Hurlburt and also from the Premier that CAP is an important program and will stay. However, at the federal level, we heard nothing - the only thing we heard was a press release from Minister Bernier's office that basically corrected a few factual errors in the first article that appears, which we know there were factual errors and we pointed those out to the Halifax ChronicleHerald, but that's all that was there, was just to correct that.

Then after that we heard that there was word through the Office of Economic Development that there was approximately another $90,000 coming from Industry Canada and they said that had been released for the remainder of the year. Our association then wrote to Minister Bernier and asked for a meeting. We asked that, thank you, that's a start but that's not enough to run the program, we want to have a dialogue

about the future of this program. We just don't want to have a situation where it's don't you call us, we'll call you. So after about another week of pressure from the media and from people, we did hear from the minister's office. His special assistant did call me and explain that it is going forward to Cabinet, but since that time we have not heard anything and we've not heard any indication of whether the minister would meet with our association or not.

MS. STREATCH: Madam Chair, could I have one quick follow-up? Good, at least if it's going to Cabinet, that's a positive step. I hope it's going to Cabinet to continue the funding, or indeed to increase the funding, that would be my hope. I'm wondering, do you have a sense, what's the reality of the cuts? We've heard $1.1 billion for a group of programs, correct, so what specifically have you heard or are you anticipating that the cuts are specifically to CAP?

MR. STACKHOUSE: This was not part of that larger one. The fact was that those cuts came at about the end of September, but the federal government had also been telling us that the CAP program, they would have a decision to us by the end of September. So the two things just happened to collide at the same time. CAP is not part of the cut, it's just that between the time that we were told the program was being reviewed back in the Spring, they said there would be a decision by September 30^th and we never heard a thing again. It was September 30^th so we're assuming that the program would be sunsetted, the contract with the provincial government would just lapse. We had not heard anything so that's why we decided to go public.

What it actually means, though, is that if there was not any more money, sites would close. There are sites that had to pay, you know, not large amounts of money but they had to pay for Internet connectivity. They had to pay for heat and lights. They had to pay if some piece of equipment goes and has to be fixed. It would also mean that we would have no means of leveraging any other monies from Service Canada, from the local municipalities, or anything else. That little bit of money goes a long way because it allows you to leverage others. So sites would have closed. Our partners, such as public libraries, Charlotte and I both speak on behalf of them, but it would make public libraries say, well, why are we in this partnership anymore, you know, and things like that. So that was why it was a concern.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: You have 15 minutes. Would other members of the Conservative caucus like to go?

Mr. Bain.

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you very much for your presentation this morning. Being from a rural area like Victoria County, every community has a CAP site in Victoria County, I believe. I live in the Boularderie area

and I can see the groups working together with the Historical Society, the policing office. They do training, they put out monthly newsletters together, and everything else. I guess being from the rural area, the benefit of high-speed has been tremendous through CAP, but now with the high-speed connectivity coming in some of these areas through Aliant or EastLink, what would the goal of CAP be in the future? Do you see it becoming - it will still be serving the remote areas but some of the rural areas are coming more on stream, would it be more training than connectivity or where do you see it going as each of these communities gets access to high-speed?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Well, I think the reality is too many of our communities have had high-speed, like some of our CAP sites in some of the towns have had high-speed for a number of years and what we've seen is the use just gets more sophisticated. You might use it at home but you might want some training. You might want to learn how to use - I know when the broadband initiative went forward in Antigonish County, the RDA there used the sites as training centres for folks who were getting high-speed, to learn about e-commerce, word processing, even things like people who travel and they want to use a Webcam to communicate, or maybe with a client or whatever. Those are not always easy things to use, as I'm sure all of you have experienced, and they're looking for someone to assist them.

The second part of it is - that's one of the training - the community projects I think will go forward. The big thing was that CAP brought a number of people together and people thought that this program would bring all the techies together and it didn't. What it brought together were all the people who cared about their community, those who volunteered on the women's institutes, maybe the chamber of commerce, or whatever, and they got together because they sort of just knew that technology was important and it was going to be important to their community. They will continue to get together and determine what kinds of things they can do in the future.

The other thing is, there are a lot of people there who just can't use technology - seniors, people who for a variety of reasons cannot access technology - so even if high-speed is there, they may not use it or they may not have it or the means to have it or they may not have the technical knowledge to get it all hooked up.

So I think it's going to go through a period of change, but I think we've already seen what it is and it just doesn't - it surprised us. We sort of keep thinking it's going to go away or it's going to say everybody's going to stop, but it doesn't, it just keeps going.

MS. JANES: I know over the 10 or 12 years public libraries have provided public access, the usage rate - we've doubled the number of computers in libraries in most cases, or more - the rate that they are used is higher than it was when we started. We think people have computers at home and they have CAP sites and everything is growing - technology is out there, but as Eric has said, people still don't know how to use it. We

have people who won't park in the library parking lot when tutorials are scheduled because they don't want anyone to know they need help.

It's a real literacy issue to make sure people out there know how to use it. We still have people coming in and needing that assistance. Public access is still very much a need out there.

MR. BAIN: So it would be more of a bridge, would that be the best way to say it? I know initially when the CAP site in Boularderie started, yes, people were getting training, but there was no high-speed. If they wanted high-speed, they would go to the school and use it, but now they have access, but it's more of a training - it's a bridge to get you to that next level.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Maybe one point of clarification and that's a good point. As well, we have had CAP sites that have finished, have said that's it for them. They came into it for particular reasons. A lot of schools joined CAP to get high-speed Internet access into the school. The access piece was secondary, not all schools, but some, and once they got that and once it was covered by the school board, they said really we've accomplished what we wanted to do.

Others, if they were a service agency or whatever, maybe they just wanted to impact a certain group and they did that and they completed. What has continued on is those who really came into this program, were the original model, saying this is a community development exercise.

The other part too, is we also regularly have other places that come forward. I have one in the East River Valley in Pictou County, they would like just one machine just to have access. They don't have high-speed, they'd just like one machine, just something in their community to do it. Now there are no more sites, but perhaps one of the sites might take them on as a satellite.

Summer Street Industries in Pictou County, in my experience, they came forward and they changed from doing workshop activities for their learning-challenged clients and they wanted to get into getting their computer skills up to date. So the New Glasgow CAP site is working with them to provide some recycled equipment and other things to get going. It's a bit of a moving target in a way.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: You talked about 1 million-plus people accessing, or I'm guessing maybe times. I'm looking for the number of times versus the number of people. Do we have an idea of how many people - I know it's not 1 million-plus annually accessing CAP sites - I'm wondering, how many people is that?

MS. JANES: As far as the libraries, I don't know about people so much as time slots used. It often is the same person. I know we do seniors' tutorials and people come in for one-on-one teaching and it's the same person who comes every week for months, and then they might stop for the winter because they go away, but they're back again. Sometimes it's a social interaction that they're needing, as well as computer, because it just doesn't stay with them long enough. There's always something new to learn but we haven't counted actual individuals, for the most part, in our statistics.

MR. STACKHOUSE: One thing we can do though is under the CAP rules, in most of the library situations but I also know on the CAP, to make room for others, you only get one hour a day, once a day, so you couldn't book two, one after another. So you are seeing that. I guess, anecdotally, you do certainly see a number of the same people, but what has been occurring too is now once people are travelling and they realize that they can just drop in and use, you're seeing people you just haven't seen before. Whether they're business travellers or whether they're tourists or whatever, but there is certainly a core of people that that is their lifeline. I know when a snowstorm closes one of the sites, you might as well just take the phone off the hook because they just call. They're calling to find out whether they can check their e-mail or whatever they want to do.

MR. PORTER: I've never used one because I have computer use at home, but is there a logon that allows you then to do a count of a visit? If Charlotte goes, do you log onto a name and password and okay, there's a visit, so do you count that as a visit?

[9:45 a.m.]

MS. JANES: No, it's logged by staff, so you have to sign up at the desk, to use the computer. We often say, the most interesting statistic overall would be turn-aways. The number of people who cannot get a computer slot because it's peak time after school, early evenings. It would be amazing the number of people who can't get in to use. There's a lineup, as Eric said. People might only get half an hour today because there are just too many people wanting to use it, or they may get an hour, if they're lucky because there aren't as many.

We don't have a log-in, especially for tourists. We have a guest with our wireless in our public library system because branch staff will look and say, why isn't that person coming in? They've been sitting out there in their car, every day for the last week. What are they doing? Then they realize they're accessing the wireless, that they have a laptop and we have pictures of people just sitting on the step. There are several of them just sitting there, talking with each other, but using the wireless connectivity. So it's several levels of use when we talk about CAP and libraries and access to the Internet.

MR. PORTER: That was kind of leading into my next question. Do you have any idea of how many people don't get access or are turned away in the run of any given day? Ever measure it?

MS. JANES: No, it would be very time-consuming to do, but I would love to know because I'm sure it's quite high on given days. We have users and they ask what the hours are of the site a few miles down the road because they'll go. If they can't get access in one site - and they have that mobility - they will travel to the next site, but they really take ownership of the one in their community. It's a lifeline for a lot of people.

MR. PORTER: Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I'm going to turn the time over now to the NDP caucus. Mr. Epstein.

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: So when it comes to economic development, there's no clear dividing line between federal responsibility and provincial responsibility. It's just not so clear in the constitution who has jurisdiction. So we get joint jurisdiction. We get the feds involved and we get the provinces involved. When it comes to local economic development, then of course it's logical for the province to be involved when it comes to economic development that depends on a form of communication that's regulated federally as the Internet tends to be, then there's a logic for the feds to be involved. So it's not a surprise that we get joint federal-provincial involvement in this program.

But I would like to focus for a minute, if we could, on what the provincial dimension is here because it's not clear to me exactly where we're going. Would you just clarify for us, what do you see are the differences between the stated provincial policy on broadband access to be, and the CAP program? Tell me the differences and how you see those two interacting, if at all.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Well, in terms of the broadband policy from the provincial government, I think what we went to OED and argued was that where there isn't any broadband access, the least we can do is put broadband access into the CAP site. So at least there's a node, and we did have a successful program where we - all sites now are connected at least up to a two-way, high-speed satellite service, which is not as good as having a DSL. It's close.

MR. EPSTEIN: You better say what a DSL is?

MR. STACKHOUSE: It's an Aliant or cable network type of feed, one you would get in a town or a city. It's not quite as good, but it is certainly way better than just dial-up. So we've now accessed those, and we know, hopefully, that's temporary and that

places will get actual broadband into their communities. That part of the program, CAP has been involved with. There has also been some - we have not been part of the formal, for example, the tendering process that has been going on in the northern shore of Nova Scotia, although River John has been working with an Internet provider to get access.

MR. EPSTEIN: Is it fair to say that broadband is essentially a promise to private individuals and businesses, that sooner or later that service will be available if they want to purchase it, and in the meantime CAP is a publicly available system that in effect has the same standards as the broadband would have when it comes to the community? Is that a fair assessment?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: So in the meantime, communities that don't have the broadband have CAP?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Yes, and I wouldn't say all communities because not all communities have a CAP site.

MR. EPSTEIN: Sure, but the ones that do have CAP . . .

MR. STACKHOUSE: But we have pretty good coverage.

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, I think that's clear. Actually, to the province's credit, they seem to have stepped in and filled a bit of the gap that's left this year by reduced federal funding. Is that also accurate?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Yes, they have committed more money to the CAP program to help bridge that over to March 31^st, to the end of the contract, as well as the $90,000 extra, give or take a few thousand - it's around $90,000. So that combined with the province, I guess we'd call it life support.

MR. EPSTEIN: You've made it clear that the federal interest in the future of CAP is not clear. I'm wondering about the provincial interest in the future of CAP after the end of the current fiscal year. I noticed that the Premier had said that the question of whether CAP should move in a new direction was one of his concerns. I don't know what that meant. I wonder if you have any idea what it means, and I'm wondering, is there any mechanism in place that you're aware of at the provincial level to assess what's going to happen with CAP?

MR. STACKHOUSE: We've not had any assurance past the end of this year from the provincial government, other than the assurances that we've all seen in the papers and other things. To be perfectly honest, from the past experience that we've had with the

provincial government, with OED, the Office of Economic Development, through its CAP coordinator, would be looking to the association to work together to develop a plan. I think in past experiences, they usually assist us, they let us - for example, the next chair's meeting in December, which we're getting together, we're going to start to look at what are our next steps over the next year, because our three-year plan is beginning to come to an end.

Now, in that case, usually what OED would do is support us, maybe through some funding, to get our business plan done and that sort of thing, then it would take that plan as a partner and sign onto it.

MR. EPSTEIN: So your three-year plan ends March 31, 2007 or 2008?

MR. STACKHOUSE: I think it goes through past December. It's our own association's plan, so it . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: What I was wondering about was the provincial government's commitment to CAP, when does that end?

MR. STACKHOUSE: March 31^st.

MR. EPSTEIN: Of 2007?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Of 2007.

MS. VICKI CONRAD: I agree with some of the members across the way that we are all very concerned about the support of CAP and what happens if that changes, especially in our rural communities. You made mention that currently you're on life support, just kind of getting by. Looking through the slide sets earlier, the decrease in funding from the federal government, how have you been putting out that money in the 11 regional sites? Because I'm thinking that the training base for the volunteers who are in those CAP sites needs to be upgraded to help people coming into the sites, to be able to better use those sites. So where is that? How are you divvying up what little bit of money you have now, and what are you doing with that money? Is it going into training, is it just keeping the hardware kind of current or is it, I'm assuming, very bare bones?

MR. STACKHOUSE: The contribution agreement is signed between the Office of Economic Development and each of the 11 networks, and that is divvied up by CAP site. So if you have 15 CAP sites within your network or 40 CAP sites, basically the 279 is divided into the total sum and sort of each site has - that's the formula we've used. So if you are a network with 10 sites, you would get x number of dollars based on the number of sites you have, that then goes to the network and we have to provide a plan as to how that money is going to go out. Right now it would mainly be going towards

technical support, just keeping the equipment running and any heat and lights or connectivity issues.

For example, Pictou Island, probably until the end of the year, needs about $400 in connectivity costs, so they would get that. Some sites, though, don't need as much money, they may have it covered by a public library or whatever, so their need may be only $100. So we basically balance it off depending on the need of each one and then we provide that back to OED as to where we spent it.

The thing that has helped us is we just received word that Industry Canada did have some extra money in the youth initiative and so now we're in the process of hiring about 80 youth across the province - that's another program that if CAP fails at the Industry Canada level, that fails, too. So that's good for this year. There's more than just that initial money, there is that youth initiative money. We're doing that and that will certainly help with issues such as training of volunteers and things like that.

MS. CONRAD: So do you see with the potential loss of funding from the federal government and perhaps if there's a different direction from the province as to what broadband will look like and how CAP kind of connects into that, that the youth initiative program will suffer as a result of those possible funding cuts?

MR. STACKHOUSE: If the federal component of that is not there, I would wonder whether the provincial component of that would be there. That would then, in the summer, not allow us to leverage the money out of Service Canada for that youth initiative. So it's like a house of cards - you pull one card and the rest falls down. That's because it's a partnership-based initiative.

When we were receiving $1.3 million, as a province, in sustainability funds from the federal government and the province was contributing what it was contributing, that was a good level, and I think we all felt that was a good level to be at. Then, as I say, just every year and every year - but there was always a promise that we were going to review it and we will get back to you. The next time you got back it was - and this is from the federal government, not from the provincial, because I know the frustration level was at the provincial level as well - they would say we will get back to you, but they would come back and say, well, we're going to review it over the next six months and here's less money. After a while it got pretty frustrating. It is very frustrating; it's an incredibly frustrating process, and I know it is for our provincial partners as well.

MS. CONRAD: I want to go back to the thought that the province has made commitment to see all Nova Scotians connected to broadband by 2010. I think, realistically, there will always be pockets in our communities that won't have the resources to be connected to broadband, for whatever reasons - whether the family doesn't have the financial resources to get hooked up, whether, as you indicated earlier,

they may be hooked up but may not have the confidence to be sitting at home and going to the increasingly new technology month after month and so need that support, and so CAP is very important to their skill development, and of course seniors and youth who would prefer that more community environment.

So I'm wondering, is there a concern that the province's vision for broadband across the province may not be the same vision that perhaps CAP has, the future of CAP?

MS. JANES: I think that broadband has only been - it's just a piece, as Eric said, CAP is not one entity, it's not one organization funding, and it's threads of many and it works, it makes it happen. Broadband coming to communities is only going to help and, yes, there will always be pockets that don't use it, or maybe all of them - but where do people go when they get new technology and how do they figure out how it works? Who do they go see? CAP sites are there for that right now, so I see CAP sites needing to be there.

Originally, when CAP came out as a federal initiative, it was a three-year program, and that was the end. It was to establish CAP sites to train communities, and some communities are finished because they fulfilled exactly that, but in others it has grown because the communities decided what's going to happen and what they need. It's absolutely amazing to see the differences out there in one community and the other, because it is community based. So the broadband people are very excited to think that's what's coming, and not because the CAP site won't be needed, but the other things the CAP sites will be able to do. So I think we're looking forward to what the provincial government is planning for broadband in the province.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Maybe just one note on that. I know Ronnie Baillie is councillor for the district out in River John. I was at a presentation he gave with the community volunteer, an economic development conference hosted by the province, and he said that if it wasn't for the CAP program that River John would not have succeeded as a village, as an area. It was on its way down. It had lost its bank. It had lost all these other things and it was at a stage where it could have gone either way. Now they're actually restoring buildings, building buildings, more businesses are going in, and I think he meant what he said. I think that goes for a number of communities across Nova Scotia. That's why it's more than just broadband now. It really is about development.

[10:00 a.m.]

MADAM CHAIRMAN: You have a minute or two, a little bit more.

MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you, I will make it quick.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: We will come back for another 10 minutes.

MR. PREYRA: Thank you very much for coming, especially Mr. Stackhouse. I've seen a lot of your work over the last year or so, especially since the cuts were announced, and you've really done a wonderful job with your stewardship, this chair, of this really important committee. It's a shame you're spending so much of your time trying to deal with the cuts issue and really do the job that you were really supposed to be doing, and I'm sorry that so much time is being spent on that.

I had a question about the provincial government's plans. I know you answered this question a couple of times, but we keep coming back to the broadband access question. Broadband access is not the same as access. I represent Halifax Citadel, for example, where we have a great deal of access here and, yet, if you go to the Spring Garden Road library, you'll see lineups of people there making appointments. If you go to Spencer House, which is a seniors' home on Morris Street, you see people lined up there.

So I think there are conflicting signals coming out of the government on this, where Premier MacDonald says, this 2010 promise - or election propaganda, as the Health Minister calls it - is going to provide for broadband access. The Minister of Economic Development says, no, this is a really important program, we have to save it, and we have to do something now. The two government departments, if you can call them that, are going in two different directions where one says market forces and growing access will deal with the problem, and it's not. I think most of your literature is focused on the growing isolation of rural Nova Scotia, in particular, and the digital divide. I'm wondering where the government was in March, for example, if they knew that this was going to happen, and it was not until September or October that we see any evidence of concern that this was happening, particularly in rural Nova Scotia. Did anything happen between March, October and November?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Well, we're always in constant contact with our CAP coordinator at OED, and other folks. We're literally, almost day by day, in contact. The big thing was, we kept asking, well, where's Industry Canada? We had absolute silence, and there was nothing, they were hearing nothing. So I guess, really, that's where it came down to us. There was lots of communication, it's just that we weren't really learning anything.

MR. PREYRA: It's unusual. Everyone says this is a great program, it works really well, especially for seniors, immigrants, low-income youth, inner-city youth, and all that, yet we seem to be marching into oblivion with this program.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Yes, and it is very frustrating; it has been a very frustrating process, I must say. I think what we want is some stability. We want stability in the program. We want to know our partners are there around the table and working with us. That's where it's so critical, the federal government showing some leadership here, and

saying there's a future for this, and stating that clearly and unequivocally, because the public's reaction, I don't think, is going to die down. I keep thinking it will die down - Charlotte and I do have day jobs - and it doesn't, it just keeps going. I know there will be articles in papers this week. It's important to people, I think.

Technology is so much part of our lives. You can imagine, over the last 10 years, how much the world has changed. People don't want to get left behind, and they want to feel they have some control over that change. I think CAP sites have given them that sort of control, and that's why they're not willing to give it up. Broadband is just one small piece. You can have the biggest water pipe you want going into your house, but if you don't have any taps or you don't know what to do with the water, it's not going to help.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I'm going to turn it over now to Mr. Theriault, from the Liberal caucus. We'll have 10 more minutes at the end.

MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Madam Chairman, sorry I was late coming in. My name is Harold Theriault, MLA for Digby-Annapolis. You're speaking of the future of CAP sites. I believe there still is a future for CAP sites. All the while you were talking this morning, I was thinking of a few years back - and I won't say how many but probably close to 50 - I guess I did say it. We used to get together in our little community. We had one or two televisions in the whole community. We would get together in the evenings, some of us, the odd evening to watch these televisions. We never even had telephones then. So a couple of telephones came to the community, and we'd go to that home, or two homes or three homes, and use a telephone, just call the two or three people in the community who had them. (Laughter)

We've come a long ways from there, that's for sure. We all have telephones, we all have televisions now, I believe, and someday we'll all have computers. Right now, we don't all have computers, in rural areas. I have the odd neighbour who comes to my home to use my computer, or my family's computer I should say. They use it a lot more than I do.

Anyway, there were a few interesting things in your presentation. One was, you mentioned that for every dollar that government spent, $9 was spent from the community, generated by the community. Can you give me an idea of where that comes from, and does the technology industry, the cable industry, invest any money in this, or is it just profit for them?

MR. STACKHOUSE: No, they do not. Under the federal restrictions, they're not allowed to give away communications, actually that's part of the legislation. So if you went to Aliant and said give me an Internet connection for free, they cannot do it, or the cable folks. That is part of the Telecommunications Act. Where that money comes from

is municipalities, so the municipalities, for example, pay the heat and lights for libraries, for many of those community centres, other things like that; private individuals provide their time, they also make donations; and when I say the community, it also could be, perhaps because we got that money we were able to go to Service Canada and do a youth initiative or an unemployment scheme where we were able to hire someone to provide training or experience in the CAP site.

We have various people who use CAP sites. For example, we had an investor syndicate in our area go through. They needed a place to meet in the area, and afterwards they rented the site, and that goes into the site income. It's a mixture of different things.

We have to provide financial accountability at the end of the year, to the Office of Economic Development. That clearly outlines it. For example, our CAP coordinators in many of our areas, about a third of their salary, maybe a little bit more, is paid for through contributions through the Office of Economic Development, and the rest comes from libraries, RDAs, other municipalities, other folks in the community to make that job work.

MR. THERIAULT: So there's no private funding at all?

MR. STACKHOUSE: In some cases there is. They would be more at the individual site level. So, for example, if a store has one, they might actually provide the Internet connection and other things. It all depends on the individual site.

Also, we've done training with business and many of the times we may not ask for any money but they give significant donations back. So, for example, Lismore Sheep Farm in River John, they do one fundraising day a year where they have Sheep Days and they usually provide about $400 to $500 in cash.

MR. THERIAULT: I may have missed this at the beginning but if the federal government pulls out of this, what will the extra cost be to the province to keep this going?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Well, if they were to fund it at the level at which it was funded, at a good funding level when we felt we weren't having to worry about staying on life support, it was $1.3 million to the Province of Nova Scotia. So they have now whittled that down to about $370,000 so we're now missing that $900,000.

MR. THERIAULT: One million dollars more, easy.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Yes.

MR. THERIAULT: If this all shuts down, if the CAP centres all shut down, what will the economic impact be to this province?

MR. STACKHOUSE: The economic impact, well, I guess all of the projects that have occurred, all of the skills development pieces that have occurred, the 180 youth who are employed each year across the province, the ability of small businesses in rural areas to at least go to an area and connect, to help each other train, to come in and use digital video cameras, to work together, that will be gone. We have never done a tally on that. I guess, in a sense, we never wanted to know the specifics because we'd just be trying to keep this going.

I think what the public are saying is that this is an important - I know UNSM just made a resolution, that was brought up by a number of councillors - this is an important program at the municipal level and they have spoken very clearly on this issue. So it will be significant. This is the little program that could.

The other thing I'd equate with your analogy about the television and the rest, I'll go back - I'm not 100 years old but - 100 years ago all people didn't have books and they formed public libraries and public libraries are still around and they are still heavily used. A lot of the model we've generated in Nova Scotia is along the same model of the public library system and that hasn't gone away. So I think we hope that technology will be a social thing as well; get together with your neighbours and get together with the folks in the community, don't isolate yourself just online, don't go home and sit in front of your computer and go zooming off to Google. Visit Nova Scotia, learn more about your neighbours, work with them and come up with a future for your community, using this small investment that the federal and provincial governments have provided.

MR. THERIAULT: Do you know to what extent the provincial government has negotiated with the federal government over this? Can you be involved, if you want to be in the negotiations?

MR. STACKHOUSE: I do not know - now I'm certainly taking our provincial partners at word and I have no reason not to - I think there has been some discussion but not much. I think the provincial partners are waiting for initiation by the federal government, although I think that can change.

The second part, we've asked. We've written a letter to Minister Maxime Bernier asking to be involved. We wish to have a meeting with him to explain over this same sort of thing, say why it is important to Nova Scotia and Nova Scotians. I have heard back, verbally, from his assistant but I have not heard back that we would be involved in any way. It was just more or less, if you need to know anything, give me a call. So we want to be involved.

MR. THERIAULT: You mentioned lobsters two or three times in your presentation. It perks my ears right up when I hear lobsters, it's one of our biggest industries around the coastal waters of this province. You talked about students doing some science.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Yes.

MR. THERIAULT: Are they doing this for the Department of Fisheries or for the university? Science, we've been pushing for DFO science for years to do more science and they seem to be doing less. So it's nice to hear that.

What kind of projects are they working on and . . .

MR. STACKHOUSE: That was a project done a few years ago called the Lobster Project. Basically, the people in River John and along the North Shore, they got tired of going online and seeing the kids go online to learn about the lobster fishery and getting it from Maine and New England. So we hired one youth - that went over two years, actually - who was a graduate of a science and a masters, she went out on lobster boats and took digital imaging of all of that. She did all the research, did everything else, came back and we actually made a site - it's on www.riverjohn.com - and we know that's one of the biggest hit sites, visits, is that site of all the digital projects. It has lobster recipes on there, the ecology, the fishery, pictures in the cannery, so at least kids can learn about their own environment.

Other things we've done is, we also go out and do surveying. Sometimes, if there's something going on and maybe there's some GPS tracking or whatever, anything to do with technology, we may give some of that time to a youth in a CAP site to go out and help another project that's going on. Maybe they just need to do some GPS coordinates and things like that. Basically, whatever is going on in the community, they come to us because they know we have the technology and we have the know-how to use it. Then we usually provide either youth or some other grant to do it. We're there to help, whatever goes on in the community.

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. THERIAULT: Maybe you could apply to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for a little financial help. You seem to be doing a little more work than they are on it. It may be a route. Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: If it's fine with the committee members, I would like to ask just a couple of questions here from the Chair. Thank you very much, I appreciate that.

I just wanted to pick up on a couple of the points that were made today. I was very impressed to hear that internationally we're looked upon as a model jurisdiction, having this kind of community access in place. You said there are 279 sites currently operating, which in a fairly small geographic area, it's really quite something.

I also noticed in one of the media things we were given, it said the National Broadband Task Force had also said that we were a leader in terms of the number of communities with high-speed access. That was just last year in a little article about the 10^th Anniversary of the CAP program here. Clearly, Nova Scotia has done a good job in getting these sites up and running, and reaching our communities.

I'm also interested to note that so many of the calls for help are coming from Nova Scotia - you said roughly 90 per cent of the letters going into the federal government are from Nova Scotia. We all agree Nova Scotia's great, but I wonder if you could say, what's different about Nova Scotia? This program rolled out across Canada; why are we seemingly to be ahead of the curve? Also, it seems to mean more to us here.

MR. STACKHOUSE: I think a couple of things. One was that community economic development. I guess we believe - I won't say propaganda - but the propaganda that said this was a community development exercise. That's the way they introduced CAP and we believed it. I think we thought, let's get our communities involved.

What occurred in the other parts of Canada - in New Brunswick, for example, it became a provincial initiative so it starts in Fredericton and they said there's a site here, here and here. It's very much top-down. Ours was a bottom-up.

The other thing that occurred - the federal government in many of the other provinces, they don't have a provincial partner. They go directly to the sites, so you completely miss a provincial partner at all who's closer to the ground. I don't know how one person in Ottawa can keep track of all the sites in Ontario, it would be a pretty hard task.

The other thing that did occur - this is why it's so nice to have Charlotte here - is that libraries and community sites work together. In other provinces, they saw it as a bit of a competition. The libraries said, okay, there's some money, we want this money. The community groups said this money, and they didn't want to talk. I think because a number of us very early on were librarians on this - and also our regional library system is very different than across Canada - we said, no, this is all about getting the community together. For that, I think, I know we're looked upon. We go to National Library Association meetings - Charlotte and I - and they're talking about CAP and it just doesn't bear any reality to what we're looking at.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: It sounds like a real success. I think maybe if the provincial government is looking for more "good things are happening in Nova Scotia" ads, they might look at the CAP site and then maybe there will also be an urge to make a larger commitment.

I think, as you've said, the partnership idea from top-down, Mr. Stackhouse, is what's really helping. It's from the federal government. We need that core funding from the feds, but it's the partnership right down to the grassroots in the community that has really made a big difference here in Nova Scotia. Certainly I think it's something we should be proud of. I'm always happy to hear that we're standing out as being one of the best, because too often we see ourselves further down the list in terms of how things are going here. So it's good to grab hold of things that we're doing in an exemplary way and try to maintain them, certainly, and extend them even.

I'm interested in the relationship with RDAs because that again, they seem to be our vehicle for community economic development. How closely are you aligned with the RDAs?

MR. STACKHOUSE: It depends on the area. Some areas, very closely. I look at Cumberland, for example, very strong RDA there, works very closely with the library and then with all the community volunteers too. Those were the two champions. In other areas, that may not be the focus with the RDA, not technology access. It may be more small business development, outside of it. It depends on the focus. So what we looked for in each area was a community champion and, nothing against the RDAs, it's just that in the area of this technology and that, they may just not be that champion in the community, but they certainly are there at our regional network, working tables.

MS. JANES: I work with two of the 11 regions and the RDAs have had involvement in the past and it may come and go, but they're certainly there as a resource; when they're needed and when we call upon them, they're there. Certainly, in one of the regions I'm involved with, they really took hold and started the CAP initiative and created a region there - the RDA in Annapolis-Digby was certainly instrumental in creating a region in that area. So they're our partner there.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I'm going turn it over again. If there are more questions, we'll be more casual in this second round. But I'll look at 10 minutes, at most. So everybody gets a crack at it.

MS. STREATCH: Thank you, Madam Chairman. Certainly it would be my desire to put on the record, since this is reflected in Hansard, that the provincial broadband initiative is a commitment, by this government, to take place by the year 2010. I firmly believe that commitment will be upheld, and as we continue to move forward with this,

I think the pilot project that was announced in Tignish is a fine example and evidence that it indeed is a commitment by this government.

I guess I have a couple of quick little questions. The first one is, prior to the September 30^th deadline for Industry Canada, did you have any indication from the Nova Scotia Government that they would not continue to fund at the current level

MR. STACKHOUSE: No.

MS. STREATCH: Okay. So I guess the next statement then - and thank you for that - I'm a firm believer in respecting jurisdiction and I know that sometimes we might think the easy answer is for one of us to pick up the slack, when another doesn't come to the table, but I certainly wouldn't want to see the Nova Scotia Government be the only ones sitting at the table.

It would be my hope, and I think as I mentioned earlier, perhaps the best thing for this committee to do would be to write a letter to Minister Bernier urging his department, and him as minister, to reconsider and/or consider to fully fund the CAP initiative. I'd also put on the record right now, I think we should write the Nova Scotia federal minister, Minister MacKay, and encourage Minister MacKay to fight at the Cabinet Table for continued funding to CAP. I guess I would be looking for maybe just an opinion that respecting that jurisdiction would be the wish to continue the program, we really need to have all the players at the table.

MR. STACKHOUSE: There's no question and we know that from our volunteers. They like being part of a national initiative. In the past, despite the confusion that we've had over funding, we have worked very well with our Industry Canada folks in the past. It's just that we've had silence for whatever reason and we want to have a discussion. This is a partnership. We want to have everyone around the table.

MS. STREATCH: Thank you.

MR. BAIN: Is there a formula to determine where CAP sites are?

MR. STACKHOUSE: No, it was generated . . .

MR. BAIN: Is it based on need? I'm looking at a couple of situations where there's a CAP site at Point A, and seven or eight miles away there's another one. It's not a heavily populated area. Is it based on need at that point?

MR. STACKHOUSE: No, it's based on the community's willingness to step forward.

MR. BAIN: Should they be willing at first and that dwindles, goodbye CAP site? I guess that's basically . . .

MR. STACKHOUSE: We had one in Lismore that actually, because it was sort of led by one or two people, we went through the initial progress, they got $40,000 to start their CAP site. When I went back to the community and said, you have your $40,000, they said, actually, the people have left the community and we're not sure we can carry it forward, and they gave the money back. The community just wasn't willing to step forward, and that's why you see them where they are.

MR. BAIN: I wondered about that, because there are some in close proximity. The question for me at this point is, what do you see the shape of CAP being if the feds pull out? Would CAP sites have to close, would there be programs lost? Will CAP survive?

MR. STACKHOUSE: I guess it would rely then on the rest of the partners around the table who are still there. I guess that's more of a question for you folks, in terms of where the provincial government is, what the province's wish is. Well, certainly right away, you're going to see sites close. You're going to see other partners just say, hey, it isn't worth it anymore.

MR. BAIN: Do we, at this point, have enough CAP sites in this province? I know if I asked if we had too many, you would say no, but do we have enough?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Do we have enough? It all depends, and I think we're going to lose some. Some will say, well, we've done our bit, and you could see it go up and down. It goes up and down every year, we count them, but it seems to have steadied off now. We lost a number once Industry Canada really cut that $1.3 million down to $370,000. We lost a number of sites, they just said it's not worth it anymore. But on the other hand we had other sites that came forward and said, yes, but we have a need. It will go, it could go up and it could go down. Basically the funding all depends on how many sites we have, and that has gone up and gone down.

MR. BAIN: So it's basically a cycle . . .

MS. JANES: As communities change, that changes. The key is it is a community program. So as far as why they're in this community and not in this one, it's the community and the people in that community and what they feel their needs are and how they feel they can be addressed. As I said, it's absolutely amazing how different this community's CAP site is to this one, and that's why it has worked and is so strong compared to other provinces. It belongs to the people, it belongs to the community. Now it's in jeopardy, so the people are the ones speaking out, not a government body that sees

another program disappearing. It's the people who see what belongs to them being threatened. It changes - it's quite a unique program.

MR. BAIN: I certainly thank you for that perspective, too. I think it changes everybody's view, instead of looking at it on the community level, it's theirs. There's an ownership there, I guess that's it.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Preyra.

MR. PREYRA: Just to follow up on the comments of my colleague, the member for Victoria-The Lakes, on which sites would close, I think it's an important question. These sites will not close in any neutral way. I'm assuming that sites that have libraries or that have some kind of fixed infrastructure, they will survive in some way or another. Do we have any idea of these other sites? You were talking about rent and heat and all these other considerations that drive the cost up for other organizations. Do we have any sense of how those sites will close, when they close in March? In some communities, it's the only site there, and that community will be devastated; in other communities, say like my own, Halifax Citadel, there may be other options for people. Do we have any general sort of idea of how these cuts will play out?

MR. STACKHOUSE: There are how many library sites across the province, 78 or 79? So 79 of those would probably continue on but not at the level - they would not have the training. It would maybe be a computer you would come in and use.

MR. PREYRA: There's a hope of them surviving.

MR. STACKHOUSE: But the other 200, I doubt would. They are the ones that are in community centres, they are the ones that are in the schools. I guess school is probably not going to continue access if - nothing against schools but they provide that after-school access to the community and it may be their only one but if there's nothing to help keep the machines up or anything else, they may not do it.

Public access is a mandate of public libraries across the province. Public access is not a mandate of schools. So it depends on what your mandate is.

MS. JANES: I'm getting calls, as a chair of a regional working group, from a CAP site saying, you know, our satellite connectivity bill is $500, is CAP funding coming because we're going to have to close? I said, well, we hope it is, it's there but we haven't gotten it yet. They are like, well, how are we going to pay this? That's what you're getting now from public libraries - what's happening is that people are coming in and they need help with what they're doing on the computer and we don't have that resource. We can't say, well, you can sign up on Tuesday afternoon and you can get one-

on-one instruction with somebody, because right now I have only two minutes and the phone is ringing and somebody is at the desk.

The public libraries will continue but the level of resources they have is less and CAP sites are worried about, can we keep this satellite connectivity going? Are we going to have access to the computers at all? So it's a real threat all across the board, no matter what the site is like. Some of it is a matter of whether the door is going to stay open at all anymore.

[10:30 a.m.]

MR. STACKHOUSE: If I may add one thing. For example, in Antigonish we have one library site but we have 10 sites in community centres throughout Antigonish. We use those, as a library, to provide our service. We don't want to see them go. We use it as outreach platforms for our services.

We, in a sense, even though we haven't received some of the money, we actually help bankroll that as a public library, we help keep that going until we can receive the money, but you can only do that for so long.

MR. PREYRA: I have one quick comment, I know my colleagues on this side have a question. We tend to talk about CAP in terms of productivity and job skills and all that and - Ms. Janes alluded to this earlier - that these are also becoming important public spaces where people can get together and also a great place to tell their stories.

I know, as a critic, I often will get something from a CAP site or a community network site where people might not have a chance to connect with other people outside, in government. I know my mother-in-law in Goderich, Ontario, will send photographs and we'll send photographs of the kids, so it's an important way for people to tell their story. It's hard to quantify that in terms of economic development and benefits, but certainly it's an important benefit in isolated parts of the province and with isolated groups.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Madam Chairman, if I may point out on the screen there, that young woman at the bottom there is 93 years old and she had a headset on and she is communicating with her grandchildren in B.C. She is a shut-in, she can't get out. She was able to call; she called because she saw the CAP site. Her name is Margaret and we actually sent a trainer to her home, who knows about assisted technology, and we got her hooked up. Now she has actually put her life history onto a CD. So those are those personal stories that you're talking about.

MS. CONRAD: I fully support the idea that we do have to advocate with our federal partners, and that's the first important step forward. However, that deadline of

March 2007 is very close at your heels. So I think the onus really is on the province to also look at a backup plan because, realistically, the federal government could just not respond after that deadline, or not respond in a way that's going to really offer the support that's needed. So I think we, as a province, really do need to discuss the what-ifs, because I think that this has other serious implications if we lose the CAP.

You talked earlier about the Youth Initiative Program. It has serious implications for that particular program. I think, too, in light of the fact that funding has been cut to libraries in the budget in the next coming fiscal year, I think it's going to be more of a struggle. Certainly the libraries that are putting in some of those funding dollars now into the CAP program will be less able to do so, to really support and boost up the CAP system.

I also suspect that this is going to really have a drastic effect on our potential for adult learning and adult literacy programs across this province which, in turn, really reduces that knowledge-based economy that we're needing to keep up with and I suspect, too, that the CAP sites play a big role in that knowledge-based economy and our adult learning programs across there. So I want to know what that connectivity is and if you feel that the province really needs to start strategizing about a backup plan - the what-if scenario. It's fine for us to advocate, to plead and say we want you to seriously consider Nova Scotia has been a leader in this program across the country, but the what-ifs - the federal government certainly doesn't need to respond.

MS. JANES: A backup plan would be absolutely ideal, if the federal government doesn't come through the way we all hope that there is another plan. Adult literacy is very important out there and, as I mentioned, we have people who won't park in the library parking lot because the library is closed and everybody knows the only thing going on there right now is an adult tutorial for using the computers. They won't park there. They'll park elsewhere and walk so no one sees and knows that person doesn't understand how to use the computer they have at home. It is very important - adult literacy - and it really is going to be affected with the withdrawal of the CAP program in those smaller communities where there isn't anything else.

Immigrants coming in - I always like to tell the story in one of our CAP sites, a woman came in and she was desperate for news from home in Europe. She was looking for some information and asked staff if they could get a newspaper. Well, they not only got a newspaper, it was a newspaper in her home language. So she was in tears before she could start reading, but it was just absolutely the connection she needed that day. That happens because of CAP, and that is an adult literacy issue of another kind as well.

MR. STACKHOUSE: One of the other things to keep in mind is March 31^st, as we all know, April 1^st dollars don't flow, there are then contribution agreements that have to be settled between the province and the federal government. So there can be - we've

had times of between seven months that it takes to get some of these contribution agreements. Now, on the other hand, we've had - this is why it has been so critical to have a good provincial partner; the province is willing to step up and say, we know the money is coming and to be able to forward it to us. So that has been very important. It certainly does make a good point for having a plan in place.

MS. CONRAD: Just one quick question. You're agreeing that we should have a plan in place?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Well, yes.

MS. CONRAD: What would that plan look like if we need to have that?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Well, I think at that point we would have to go back to our association and talk with them, but we know we'll sit down with our provincial partner and have that discussion. We know that will happen and our big fear is it's not going to happen with the federal government and the province isn't going to be able to have that discussion with the federal government. I guess right now we're just really focused on the here and now, which probably isn't always the best thing.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would you like to ask one more?

MR. EPSTEIN: Minister Streatch suggested that if the feds pull out of some particular funding program, it's not necessarily going to follow that the province will step in to fill the gap. If that doesn't happen, I'm wondering if there's any existing entity in the communities that you're talking about - the ones, say, that are just now served by CAP sites without even considering expansion - are there any entities that can step in and fill the gap? Can a local RDA without any addition to its budget do it? Can the local libraries do it without any addition to their budgets and, if not, why not?

MR. STACKHOUSE: The RDAs, I can't speak - we're not from an RDA - but I would assume that they would say they do not have the extra funds to do it. Libraries, I think, we're stretched to the point - Charlotte would be able to, we're both librarians - we're stretched to the point now. The only other one I can think of are the municipalities, and I can probably leave that to your imagination, because I don't think they could pick it up.

MS. JANES: I think part of that is the CAP sites are already trying to get contributions from their communities and the people that they can to enrich their programs, because obviously the funding hasn't been sufficient to do what they're really doing. So volunteers are getting tired, worn out and the fact of monies coming but we don't know when, and it might be six months late, or it's always on a string, and some of them are just getting very, very tired out from that program. We've lost some because

of that. If the communities very strongly need it, they're still there, but I think they've tapped into all the resources there are in their communities. So there really are - everything's hooked on what funding is coming.

MR. EPSTEIN: So far the provincial monies that have gone into CAP sites have been Economic Development dollars, is that right?

MS. JANES: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: What about Education dollars? Libraries would come under Education.

MS. JANES: Yes, libraries and schools would come under Education, but the dollars have been with connectivity. For example, all the public libraries, the Department of Education looks after the Internet connection for those sites and a lot of the staffing. So that's all part of that entity's program. There isn't additional funding for the site down the road if something happens there.

MR. EPSTEIN: So when libraries are involved, what Economic Development dollars end up going to the libraries, if any?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Through CAP and through to the technology. So if a library is involved, like in our Pictou-Antigonish, for example, we do all the technical support to all sites, whether it's libraries or community sites. So that money allows us to be able to do that. Out of 20 sites, six of them are in libraries and we do technical support for all of them, plus coordination for them all, and we help write grants and do other things, and anything that they require. Without any money to assist in doing that - we can't buy equipment if we don't have any money.

MR. EPSTEIN: That's fine.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Theriault, you had a question?

MR. THERIAULT: Madam Chairman, I just wanted to suggest when we do our letter of support that it was mentioned in the questioning whether they would be involved in the negotiations and I believe all partners, as Minister Streatch also states, all partners be named in this letter, to make sure that no partners are left out. That's all.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I have just a couple of questions and then we'll go to a few concluding comments and perhaps we'll have a motion from the floor, if somebody would like to formulate that. You referred in the presentation to the fact that funding had been cut back to $376,000, I think it was, for a number of years with the promise that the program was being reviewed. Has there ever been any information that looked like a

review that's come back, or have you ever been interviewed to find out if they are gathering information for a review?

MR. STACKHOUSE: That began about three years ago and mostly it has been statistic gathering. There must be a filing cabinet 60-storeys high in Ottawa, with various reports on CAP. We'd finish the survey and then next week they'd be out with another one, and there's a lot of information there that we've sent along. The difficulty, I think is, it became a year to year. So it had to go before a Cabinet every year, and as it did, it just got knocked down a little bit further and further. It has gone through both - this began under the Liberal Government and now has continued on under the current government.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: But no review as such, I mean, really if the program is going to be cut completely the government ought to have looked at the review that said it's not valuable. Or we have a reason why we don't think it's worthwhile continuing.

MR. STACKHOUSE: We have never seen a document, Madam Chairman. There has never been a document.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, thank you very much, I appreciate that. On the issue of the provincial dollars, you were very clear on what the federal dollars are, but I'm not clear what the provincial contribution is. Is it matching contribution? Is it 50 per cent of the federal? How have they decided their level?

MR. STACKHOUSE: That has been an ad hoc amount. So each year, it has been roughly around $300,000.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Has that been almost from the inception? So it has never taken a big cut the way the . . .

MR. STACKHOUSE: No, it has gone up incrementally, every year, for the past four years. Some of that has been in terms of payment CAP coordinator at the provincial level and other things, but it has gone up; as the federal government has stepped down, the province has stepped up. It's just not at the level of the cut.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Not dollar for dollar, as it went up and down.

MR. STACKHOUSE: No.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Still, it's important for us to know what level of commitment we've seen and I think that helps up to quantify and get a magnitude of what's being discussed. I would like to refer again to literacy and I think in Nova Scotia, about 40 per cent of our population has some literacy challenges. I'm wondering if the

CAP site - you've talked about giving people more sort of hands-on computer skills, but are there programs in place for people who are actually learning basic literacy, where the CAP site is used?

MS. JANES: Yes, certainly. It's a venue, it's a site to do that with. There are some individuals who don't often learn as well with print material, so computers are used to assist people who might have learning difficulties and they are able to read easier and learn faster with the use of technology, so they certainly do work together.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: So you have an integration of some of the basic literacy volunteer programs that are going on as well?

MR. STACKHOUSE: Madam Chairman, most of the literacy groups that do adult learning or whatever, there is a technology component where they also have to show technology proficiency as part of their literacy program, and they've used CAP sites for a number of years.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: That's good to hear. Some years ago I helped at the Captain William Spry Literacy Program as a volunteer, but it was a while ago and we weren't using the computer then, so I just wondered. I think that's very important in our province, probably across Canada, too, with literacy challenges. We need to make use of all - all people need to be able to fully function and I think that having programs available for literacy are really important. So I think that's another reason why this letter is so important that we need to send, and whatever signal we can send on.

That's it for my questions - anybody else want to ask a couple? We have some committee business as well, so our timing, I think, is good this morning.

[10:45 a.m.]

Perhaps I'll ask for some concluding remarks from Mr. Stackhouse and Ms. Janes, if you would like to - both or either one.

MR. STACKHOUSE: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and the committee, for taking the time to hear our case. It's a good program and a lot of people care about it. We have been around this block for a number of years and we'll continue to support it mainly because people want us to. We hear the same things, so we'll continue - but we really, really need a strong federal partner and a strong provincial partner.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay.

MS. JANES: I can only echo Eric's comments - that it's a very much used program out there and often, from when it started, you thought okay, three or four years

and it's going to disappear, and just as we thought public access and libraries wouldn't be used as much after everyone got their computers, but it's still very, very strong. I only have to look at statistics to know that, and hear it from people - I mean it's what you hear from individuals that really makes you believe in the program because it's theirs. I really appreciate the opportunity that you recognize that libraries are important to this program and that you asked us to come before you today, so thank you for the opportunity.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, thank you very much. I wonder if there is anybody in the committee who would like to make an official motion. I know Ms. Streatch mentioned it first.

MS. STREATCH: Yes, Madam Chairman, I would so move that this committee, the Standing Committee on Economic Development, write to Minister Bernier, the federal Minister of Industry, urging him to maintain funding for the CAP program here in Nova Scotia. I would also put in that motion that we write to Minister MacKay, Nova Scotia federal minister, urging Minister MacKay to work with his colleagues, to work at the table to continue to fund CAP. I would so move.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on that motion?

Mr. Epstein.

MR. EPSTEIN: I'll second the motion, but I think it should also be copied to the relevant provincial officials, the Premier, the Minister of Economic Development, and the Minister of Education.

MS. STREATCH: Certainly.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Can I just make a comment - oh, sorry, I'll wait until you've spoken, Mr. Preyra.

MR. PREYRA: No, you go ahead.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, I wanted to ask about the amount - we're saying "to maintain funding" but we've heard this morning that the funding has dropped significantly. So do we want to be more specific? That's my question.

MR. PREYRA: I think we should go back to the original amount.

MS. STREATCH: I would have no problem with that, I would just caution that if we're looking to - be careful what we ask for, I wouldn't want them to come back and say no, we're not going to do that and then lose what we have now, Madam Chairman, that would be my concern.

MR. PREYRA: We change "maintain" to "restore" costs.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would that be okay, if we say "restore"?

MS. STREATCH: Again, I'd be happy if the federal government would put $1.3 million back on the table. My concern is that if we ask for restoration to that level or we ask for increased money, does it lessen the chances of us being successful keeping what we've got and fighting another day to increase it? I open that to the committee for discussion.

MR. THERIAULT: I thought we were going to ask for a negotiating meeting between partners here. Why are we trying to negotiate prices here for this? They should be doing that, not us.

MS. STREATCH: I would agree, except the individuals already did ask for a meeting and word came back from Minister Bernier . . .

MR. THERIAULT: That's what we have to do. We have to ask if this meeting can be held. We can't negotiate this for them, that's not our role. I think it's the association's role to get involved with the federal and provincial governments and negotiate the deal, and we can support that.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Discussion?

MR. EPSTEIN: That's a slightly different motion, the idea being that we call for a meeting, I suppose, who could say, with a view to setting . . .

MS. STREATCH: With a view to . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Can we combine the two?

MS. STREATCH: I want the dollars on the table, and I worry that if we ask for a meeting, does it prolong the . . .

MR. THERIAULT: Tell them to bring the dollars with them.

MS. CONRAD: I tend to agree with Mr. Theriault; however, I also agree with the member across the way, that I think we do have to be careful in terms of what that dollar value is. It is up to the association to decide what their dollar level needs to be. Perhaps, to maintain the current level until such a time - I think it can be worded in such a way that we kind of capture everything, the fact this needs to be maintained now and there also needs to be more negotiation with all the partners at the table. If an increase is -

which we're hearing, it would be great to go back to those existing levels. I think we could include all of them.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: What I'm hearing is the motion perhaps should be more focused on maintaining the funding. It is a crisis right now. If the funding is withdrawn, we know there are CAP sites that are going to close. The letter, though, could say how much we value it and how much we believe there should be negotiation and further strengthening of the CAP program. Right? Maybe we could work that into the letter?

MS. STREATCH: Included in that, Madam Chairman, could be the desire for all partners to get to the table.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, and mention that in the letter, but we'll want to quote the motion from the committee to say the committee made the following motion.

MR. EPSTEIN: Will you circulate a draft?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I will do it. That might be the best way to ensure that we capture the essence of what everybody wants to say here. I think we have the essence of the motion clearly. Right?

Thank you very much, that's great.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried. It's unanimous.

We have a little bit of committee business to attend to. You're welcome to stay or go, whichever you prefer. It will only take us a few minutes.

We need to nominate a vice-chairman for this committee, because we don't have one. We also need to look at our list of upcoming meetings. There is a whole list being circulated of other groups we would like to have in, and we need to choose several so we can get a few months ahead. I hope you have that list. Everybody should have it, a two-page list of the suggested topics from the three caucuses. Maybe we'll start with a motion for nomination of vice-chairman.

MR. BAIN: Madam Chairman, I nominate Chuck Porter for vice-chairman.

MS. STREATCH: I'll second it.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of that nomination - okay, thank you very much. That's done, we have a new vice-chairman. Congratulations, Mr. Porter.

Now we'll go to the more difficult. Again, there are quite a few subjects before us. Perhaps, Darlene, you could tell us, do we have the next one lined up at this point?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): The next one is Tuesday, December 12, 2006, with the Regional Development Authority.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Beyond that, do we have anyone else?

MRS. HENRY: No.

MR. EPSTEIN: Did I lose track of this? I thought there was going to be a subcommittee to thrash through this. I thought there was going to be one rep from each of the caucuses to do this.

MRS. HENRY: There was, but only three items were chosen, and this is the third item from that subcommittee.

MS. STREATCH: Can the subcommittee do the same thing again?

MR. EPSTEIN: . . . or e-mail each other. I assume it will be Chuck and me and you, Diana, is that right?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay.

MS. STREATCH: I would support that wholeheartedly.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Would you like to do it by e-mail or would you like . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, rather than having a separate in-person meeting, we'll send an e-mail out and ask you for your top three, then we'll see where we go. (Interruptions)

The next meeting is scheduled for December 12^th. That will be the Regional Development Authority meeting. If that's all, no other business, then I'll look for a motion to adjourn.

MR. PORTER: I so move.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: We stand adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 10:53 a.m.]