HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

Ms. Diana Whalen (Chairman)

Hon. Judy Streatch

Mr. Keith Bain

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Howard Epstein

Ms. Vicki Conrad

Mr. Leonard Preyra

Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)

Mr. Harold Theriault

[Hon. Judy Streatch was replaced by Mr. Patrick Dunn.]

IN ATTENDANCE:

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Nova Scotia Regional Development Authority

Ms. Jo Ann Fewer

Chair, Nova Scotia Regional Development Authority

Executive Director, Colchester Regional Development Agency

Ms. Holly Boston

Executive Director, Nova Scotia Regional Development Authority

HALIFAX, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2006

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Ms. Diana Whalen

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everybody. I'd like to call the meeting to order. I think we have more than a quorum here right now, and it's just a little after 9:00 a.m. The way we usually begin is by introducing the members of the committee, and then we'll ask you to introduce yourselves. Today's subject is the Nova Scotia Regional Development Authorities in Nova Scotia. Perhaps we could start with Mr. Epstein.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MADAM CHAIRMAN: What I'd like to do is just turn it over to you, as our guests, to introduce yourselves. I think you have a presentation for us today, am I right? That would be great.

MS. JO ANN FEWER: Thank you very much. My name is Jo Ann Fewer, and I am the Chair of the Nova Scotia Association of Regional Development Authorities. With me today is Holly Boston, Executive Director. We'll be sharing the presentation today, and we understand we have 400 hours - no, sorry, 10 minutes to make our presentation, and then allow for questions and answers. We have so much to share with you and so little time, we thought we'd make the presentation as simple as possible, and then have some good interactive discussion afterwards.

The presentation itself is in your package, and it starts with two slides that start with the Nova Scotia Association of Regional Development Authorities presentation to

the Standing Committee on Economic Development. It's right there, if you'd like to follow along. Also in your presentation package is a copy of our annual report that was shared with our membership in September, at the annual general meeting. There's a general information brochure, there's a progress report, as well, from the Colchester Regional Development Agency, and we thought it would be useful to give you a snapshot of how one of 13 RDAs function and operate in Nova Scotia. So there are other reports for each area, but you're provided with the one which I guess I work for on a day-to-day basis as executive director. Please take a look, and ask any questions on any of them as we move ahead.

I suspect that many of you have ongoing relationships with your regional development authorities in your communities, so this might be a bit of a review for some of you and an opportunity to look at how the association works throughout the province. All of our regional development agencies and authorities are governed by a board of directors. The board of directors are volunteers, and many of us work with a huge number of volunteers on a daily basis because we function under a mandate of community economic development. Community economic development is a process which looks at planning in a community, reacting to local conditions in communities, and is a community's response to those local conditions. That's the basis on which we operate every day.

RDAs have been in operation for at least 12 years, that's when they became mandated by the federal and provincial governments. There were two or three that were in existence before that and were driven by local municipalities or local communities to start. So I think as early as 1991-92 is when the first RDA started in the Province of Nova Scotia. What makes us unique and what also makes us a best practice model is the fact that we are supported by three levels of government, by the federal government through the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, the provincial government through the now-Department of Economic Development, and through our municipalities in our communities. Also in Cape Breton Island, where ACOA does not have a mandate, RDAs are supported by Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation.

We are currently going through an organizational and structural review to look at how RDAs function in the province, and we're very pleased. The consultants looked at best practice models throughout the world, and we're happy to report that in their findings we could be cited as one of the best practice models in the world. They've cited a few other examples. In our go-forward plan, we're looking at a U.K. model, but at the same time they've noted that we should be proud of the fact that we're creating a new model, or creating a model that others look to us to follow, in the world. That's because of our commitment to planning, to accountability and transparency, and also to taking note of the changing role of community economic development in our planning.

If you look at slide 2, in terms of planning, all regional development authorities are involved in community strategic planning. You should be able to ask for and receive a strategic plan that could be three to five years in duration in any community in Nova Scotia and be able to receive that from your local development authority. Also, we're required by our funding partners to present an annual business plan. Fiscal years vary, but there is an annual business plan in existence for each RDA, so you should be able to ask for that and receive it, as well. It's public information.

We're accountable, again, as I say, to three levels of government, but we're also very accountable to our community and to the business community in the regions that we cover. The changing role of community economic development, I can speak to in a later slide, but we're always required to be on top of what the trends are globally, so that we know how to respond locally to those trends.

If you look at slide 3, we're really talking about how regional development agencies contribute to the changing economic conditions in our communities. If you've had on CBC or CTV news lately, there has been a lot of discussion on labour and skill shortages in Nova Scotia. Many of the RDAs are responding to those labour and skill shortages in the province. We know that skill shortages result from one of three things: an inadequate number of workers, an inadequate number of workers with skills necessary to do the job, or an inadequate number of workers willing to work for the wages and working conditions that are offered.

In our communities, most of the RDAs are dealing with those skill shortages and skills issues. We also have a Community Economic Development Committee, provincially, that has cited labour and skill shortages as one of the issues that we'll be tackling provincially over the next year.

Bullet 2 talks about immigration. Again, as a way to address some of our labour force and skill shortages, we're looking at recruiting new immigrants to the province. We are in close partnership with the Office of Immigration to work on recruitment, retention and, I guess, attraction. Some of the work that we've been doing in communities is around creating welcoming communities, so when new people come into our communities they feel embraced and welcomed.

We're also working with the Office of Immigration. We identify new immigrants through the community identified stream, and that has been a project that we've been working on over the last couple of years, creating criteria for that identification. Basically, we send a letter to the Office of Immigration that notes that we've met with the immigrants and that we agree they should be accepted into our communities. So it's the first stage of the process with that community identified stream.

On innovation, about a year and a half ago the Premier's innovation council put out a call for proposals to regional development authorities in Nova Scotia, asking for submissions that speak to innovation and communities. Seven RDAs submitted proposals and two were selected. Colchester and Kings are now working on their innovative communities projects. They are quite different in nature. One looks at addressing basic literacy skills and the project is based on the concept that if you improve basic literacy, you're improving innovation in communities. The other is centred around connecting the business, university and volunteer community to create an environment where innovation can take place in a comfortable place. Both have predetermined outcomes, and they're called pilot projects so that we can use the next 18 months to figure out if the approach works. We'll be able to share that with other regional development agencies in the province.

On entrepreneurship, all RDAs in Nova Scotia are involved in assisting new business with start-ups. Most of them are co-located with community business development corporations, which are also community-based organizations that provide loans to small business. We have a business retention and expansion program underway that Holly will speak to. Some regional development authorities have also created investment funds that allow businesses to tap into some equity financing. That has happened in one regional development authority that I'm aware of.

So that speaks a little bit about the economic impact in communities, as well as how regional development authorities contribute to some of those changing economic conditions. I'd now like to turn it over to Holly to speak on community development.

MS. HOLLY BOSTON: Thank you. Reference the value of our volunteers, there's a recent piece of information called The Daily, which is put out by Statistics Canada, which measures the gross domestic product contribution of volunteers in the non-profit sector. I'm pleased to say that our volunteers in our rural communities contribute over 650 hours for RDAs, in terms of contributing their time for the economic and community development within their regional development authorities. So we're talking anything from committee work to volunteer board of governors, and they all contribute with the strategic planning and the annual business planning, as well as participating, perhaps, in HR planning with their particular executive director and their board of governors as well.

I'm also pleased to say that numerous amounts of funds have been contributed to rural communities in terms of promoting economic development. Those dollars actually have had the potential to be leveraged by multiple private and public sectors. So we're talking about, if ACOA or ECBC contributes to a community development project, oftentimes the Province of Nova Scotia, or there may be a private sector contributor as well in that equation. We always look for partnership when we're looking at leveraging community economic development funds. Therefore, going back to our model of 33 per

cent provincial, municipal and federal contribution, we also take that out into the rural areas to try to leverage that as well; perhaps not at 33 per cent, but always looking for a contribution in order to leverage the dollars to promote community development.

[9:15 a.m.]

Community Economic Development Investment Funds, or CEDIFs - currently there are 26 in the Province of Nova Scotia. The RDAs are usually instrumental in helping join the forces together to submit the application for the community development fund. If you're familiar with the Truro area, the Marigold Centre was an example of a CEDIF. If you're familiar with the Black Business Initiative - BBI - they also have a CEDIF, as well, here in Nova Scotia. The RDAs, as I mentioned, are very instrumental in bringing those key players together, and community key players together, in order to submit the application to move this particular initiative forward, which may be beneficial to, perhaps, the building of a community centre, the building of an arts and theater centre, as the example of the Marigold Centre in Truro.

Under entrepreneurship, not only is that measured in economic ways, it's also measured in the community development side. We're talking about community development, who are interested in taking their crafts to a market and how they can take it from a point of creation to a point of commercialization. There are many workshops that are held throughout the province with regional development authorities to help craftspeople understand how they can commercialize some of their particular products, or to help run a very local small business, entrepreneurial idea.

I'd like to speak about current activities taking place in Nova Scotia right now with the RDAs: the broadband, which is the implementation of the Brand project, or the implementation of high-speed Internet throughout rural Nova Scotia, and the wireless technology. I'm sure you're all aware that this also aligns itself with the Premier's priority of a highly connected Nova Scotia in the year 2009, which is quite an achievement when Nova Scotia moves forward with that. We'll be the first connected province in North America. There are many RDAs that are instrumental in working with the rural communities with this broadband application.

For those who aren't familiar with this, it's quite an extensive application process in which you have to secure suppliers, as well, to be able to roll the connectivity out in rural communities. Unfortunately or fortunately, due to our geography, there are still challenges within Nova Scotia in terms of a broadband application, as well as wireless technology. Most of the areas are available through high-speed Internet via satellite, but it's very expensive and it's not cost-competitive to small businesses in rural communities. So, therefore, moving forward on the Premier's promise of 2009 for connectivity is a wonderful achievement for Nova Scotia to pursue.

Under the Main Street project, we have a wonderful example in Cape Breton in the Sydney area where the Cape Breton County Economic Development Agency has been instrumental, both in Sydney Mines and in other communities in Cape Breton, in improving the look of their business communities. This is not a stand-alone project. The RDA was instrumental in bringing those particular partners together, both federal and provincial, and private sector business owners to improve or, for lack of better words, give a facelift to their business community. That instills community pride, as well as it offers up the opportunity for economic development. An example would be, when the cruise ships come into the Sydney Port and they walk around Sydney, they will see that there's an active business community there, and the pride is there for community people and business people, taking pride in improvements of their business location.

The fibre optics project - this is a Valley network that is being implemented through the negotiations as we speak. This is connectivity through our Valley fibre network. It is including multiple partners again, and you'll see that's a consistent theme throughout our presentation, that nothing is done in isolation, it's always through partnership. The Kings CED is instrumental in bringing the partners together for the connectivity of this fibre optic network. That links businesses, universities and the community together.

Business retention and expansion pilot project - this has been in the news lately. What it is, it's a $1.16 million project which connects six regional development authorities. We're talking the Hants area, Kings, Southwest Shore, Pictou County, and CoRDA - the Colchester Regional Development Agency. There are six participating RDAs that have adopted a methodology to reach out to the business community. What does it do? It thanks the business community for contributing on the economic impact of their community, for providing jobs. It also - we have a face-to-face contact with our CEOs in our business community to understand inhibitors of growth, inhibitors that may detract other companies from investing in their communities, and also understanding infrastructure issues or policy issues that may inhibit their expansion of their existing business, as well.

This is a pilot project in Nova Scotia. There are five participating partners here, both federal, provincial and regional development authorities. We're hoping that after a mid-point evaluation, which is important to measure the impact of this size of a project - which we're looking at probably the end of fourth quarter, beginning of first quarter of 2007 - to review the measurable outcomes that we have established, and be able to invite the other RDAs to participate in this initiative.

The innovative communities initiative, Jo Ann briefly spoke about that. This is an offshoot from the Premier's Council on Innovation. As Jo Ann mentioned, there are two participating RDAs looking at how they can close the GDP within their communities using an innovation model. So there are two long-term outcomes that we're looking for:

improving the innovation within a community, so the culture creating; and impacting a culture of innovation within their community, using universities and private sectors, as well as community leaders. Then we're looking at, in Colchester's initiative, the enhancement of numeracy and literacy so that they can work with employers to address the labour issue within those. That is only one component of that particular project.

Under the Provincial Nominee Program, the RDAs are working very closely with the Office of Immigration. We have had seven training sessions in order to enhance our knowledge of how to use the provincial immigration stream, both from the community identified, because the provincial government feels that the RDAs know their communities best and that they're instrumental in identifying a potential nominee under the Provincial Nominee Program. The RDAs also work within the economic stream and soon to be the family business stream, as well as the other components of that immigration. But given the complexity of immigration, both federally and provincially, the Office of Immigration has offered training sessions to the RDAs to understand the community identified stream and the other components of the Provincial Nominee Program.

MS. FEWER: Moving ahead in RDA land, some of our priorities into next year include positioning communities for global opportunities. We know we are in a changing economy globally, and how do we fit in Nova Scotia? We've all heard the buzz around the Atlantic Gateway concept, we've all heard about our population patterns changing in Nova Scotia. How do we respond to that, and how do we ensure that our businesses stay healthy in the province, and our communities stay healthy in the province? That's something that we're looking at tackling as a provincial association, and also ensuring that our regional development authorities and their staff are equipped to handle providing assistance in that changing economy. Also, we're looking at how we can further develop our own leadership capacity within regional development authorities, as well as how we develop leaders in our communities.

The Business Retention and Expansion Program has been a very good example of how we're connecting public and private organizations. We can speak further to that, if you need us to. Basically, it's business visitation, we identify key issues and then we bring in those private and public organizations that we need to help address some of the changes and some of the issues that the businesses are coming up with.

So that gives you an example of where we look to go as an association into the future. With that, I'd like to thank you very much for the opportunity to make our brief presentation, and ask if there are any questions.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: That's just great. Thank you very much, we really appreciate that. It was a great overview. I'm going to ask the members of the committee, would you prefer if we just do a certain number of minutes per caucus, which I did last

time, or should we just say we'll talk as the questions arise? Usually this committee is a little more relaxed. (Interruption) I want to make sure everybody has enough time, too, which is why I was more rigid last time around. I think if we say 10 minutes each, at most, that will be sufficient. Who would like to begin? Otherwise, I might, even. I should be last. Anybody? Well, I'm going to start then, because none of you are jumping in, you're all reading the material and so on.

I had mentioned to Jo Ann and Holly at the start that when I was still a consultant I had done the first five-year review of the RDA programs; because they had been in existence five years, nobody had looked at the measures of success. So I had a good chance to see how they had come about, but I'm out of date now in terms of a lot of the initiatives you're working on. I had a couple of questions related to different aspects that you've mentioned today. I wanted to go to immigration for a minute. Under the community identified stream, I wonder if you could tell me, how many persons or families is each RDA allowed to recommend?

MS. FEWER: I guess the unwritten rule is two families per RDA per year, but I know there has been flexibility with that number, and I know that there have been RDAs that have exceeded that number.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: So if you find a good candidate, you can still go back to Immigration and ask for more?

MS. FEWER: Absolutely, and there has been much discussion around opening up that number, as well.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Have you been involved from the onset? I think this agreement was signed in 2002, initially.

MS. BOSTON: Actually, we were involved in the launch of the draft of the Immigration strategy - the RDAs were. Just to elaborate on the community identified stream, the Office of Immigration has had round tables with the RDAs in terms of developing the process under the community identified stream, where they saw that the RDAs were instrumental in understanding the needs of their community. We're allowed many opportunities to provide input into the development of that process.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is it too soon to give us some idea about the retention you're having with those new families?

MS. FEWER: I can speak about my community. We've identified seven candidates to date, over the last two years. We've welcomed in four families, who are all still there. What happens when a family is identified, and then they're approved at the provincial level, is they still have to be approved at the federal level for health and safety

concerns. Even though an RDA can identify a candidate, there is a waiting time for the family to come in, so we're still waiting on three of the families.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Actually, in the CoRDA area a couple of years ago, or maybe a bit more, there was a discussion that was held with some key stakeholders, and the idea came up, which I thought had a lot of merit, and that was about sponsoring groups of families together. So people who come from a particular community overseas come with a built-in network, really, for support, which probably would make a big difference on the retention side when you're in a smaller town or a more rural community. Has anything been able to sort of progress on that?

MS. FEWER: We proposed that to the federal government, and proposed that we become a national pilot project in that regard. We didn't get approval to do that, but we've been functioning in that way anyway in terms of the families that we're trying to welcome in and the families that we're trying to recruit. We have a very active immigration partnership in that community. If a family of a certain origin comes in, we make sure that they're matched with someone who's living in the community already who speaks that language, or who is from that country, so that they immediately feel welcomed in their traditional way. So even though we weren't approved for the formal pilot per se, we're trying to act in that way.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: That is too bad, because I think it would be a really interesting study to do, given the emphasis on wanting to create a welcoming community. We know that a reason people often leave is because they feel isolated, they're missing their culture and their language, things like that, which we can't provide, sometimes. So I'm sorry it wasn't passed, but that's interesting.

If I could go quickly to the issue around equity, and I guess it's your CEDIFs, you call them, you have 26 functioning now, up and running. Is there any data on their success so far?

MS. BOSTON: As a point of clarity, there are 26 within the province under the CEDIF program, under the Department of Economic Development. The RDAs may not be playing a part in each one of those 26, but they have played a part in the majority of those.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Maybe you could explain to the committee, they require individual investment, don't they?

MS. FEWER: Yes, that's right.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure if everybody on the committee is aware of them in their communities.

MS. FEWER: The Community Economic Development Investment Fund is a provincial program. I think it was designed by the Department of Economic Development and administered by the Department of Finance, through the Securities Commission. Basically, it looks for local investment. You form a company, and you need, I believe, a minimum of six to seven board members to do that. The idea is that it's based on a community-driven business or a community-driven need. It must be for-profit, and you encourage local citizens to invest in that company.

[9:30 a.m.]

It has benefits - it allows the investor to receive an equity tax credit that is also provincial, and self-direct their RRSPs. So the tax benefits are very beneficial to a local investor. It also provides the government guarantees, so if the CEDIF should go under in the first - I think it's four years, I'm not 100 per cent sure.

MS. BOSTON: Yes, it is, four.

MS. FEWER: And there's a 20 per cent government guarantee. So if an individual should invest $1,000, for example, they might have 80 per cent of that safe and secure through either an equity tax credit, an RRSP investment that they'd see immediately, and their government guarantee. So it's very attractive to local communities.

The concept is that you're encouraging people to invest at home, because so much of our RRSP dollars go outside of this province every day. It's an incredible amount. I know the co-op council quotes it on an annual basis, but I can't remember how much goes out every year. So it allows local people to invest in local initiatives. I can't speak for the 26 to see how they're doing. I know that the Marigold Centre that Holly talked about was the largest, at that point in time, which was about a year ago, in Nova Scotia. It received $950,000 in $5,000 contributions from the local community. I think the turnaround time was 90 days or something. People came to the table with their investments.

It was pretty incredible. It allowed an old theatre to be upgraded, and it is now a cultural centre and a going concern in our community. So it was a very important downtown building that was dormant for a while when the theatre moved out of town into the Power Centre property, and now it's a going concern again. It provides a cultural centre that we didn't have in that community in the past. So it gives you an example of what they can do.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: It does sound good. I didn't realize you wouldn't have been involved in each one. I maybe thought you were more central to it, but that explains it well. The concern I have is around the availability of capital for businesses, particularly

in rural areas, but I think small towns as well are often penalized; even a very successful going concern will find it almost impossible to get bank and traditional financing. I wonder if you could speak a little bit around that.

I had the chance a couple of years ago to visit Oxford Foods in the Town of Oxford. Even that business, which is a multi-million dollar successful business - the largest exporter and producer of a number of products, blueberries most notably - but even they say they couldn't get bank loans. I'm wondering if you could just talk a bit about that, or if you have any solutions that might work on that. Then I think my time is up, so line up.

MS. FEWER: A lot of the new entrepreneurs that we work with on a daily basis are able, and are very happy with, by the way, the partnership you have with credit unions in Nova Scotia, where there is a small business loan program. That program allows and provides more flexibility than traditional loans. So that has been quite a successful program in the province. Also, we work very closely every day with our community business development corporations, which provide loans. I think they can go up as high as $175,000 now. They also can take an equity position from time to time in communities. So for the smaller companies we're quite happy with that partnership. We really like the ACOA loans with 0 per cent interest, but they are limited to certain sectors. So when we can use those and guide people in that direction, we do that as much as possible.

There is one regional development authority, Antigonish, and I haven't kept up with how they're doing, but in terms of this CEDIF - they spun off a CEDIF, which I spoke about earlier, that would provide equity investment in companies in their communities. So, again, I can't speak about how they're doing right now, because I haven't kept up, but it was quite an innovative approach to equity financing.

Now in the province, there's a First Angel Network, which allows companies to make a presentation and meet directly with some of the provincial investors. That's something that's just getting up and running, but looks promising for local companies.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Can I ask you, who would have spearheaded this angel network?

MS. FEWER: I know that Ross Finlay is the contact person, and they do have a Web site.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: First Angel Network?

MS. FEWER: That's right, if you Google that, you should be able to find their site.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: And it's just getting rolling?

MS. FEWER: Yes. Holly, is there anything you wanted to add?

MS. BOSTON: The co-op council has some innovative ideas to help businesses as well within their areas of expertise . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Which council is that?

MS. BOSTON: The Co-op Council of Nova Scotia.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: So is it as pressing a problem as we're led to believe? What you've outlined for me is, there is capital available.

MS. FEWER: What I've given you are samples of what's available. Equity financing continues to be an issue for local business. There are local investors in each community, and I guess the level of risk that they're willing to take depends on the investor themselves.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, at least there are a few things happening. I'm glad to see that. Mr. Epstein, I know you have some questions. No, sorry . . .

MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: I do, but . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: You're not next on my list. Hold on. It's Leonard, sorry, then Junior.

MR. LEONARD PREYRA: I look like him sometimes. (Laughter) Thank you very much for your presentations. I really enjoyed them. It's quite an education for me. I have two sets of questions, one following on the chairman's questions on immigration. It seems like a lot of our immigration policies are designed to reinforce existing patterns, the family business, even the community identified stream. The general principle seems to be, you get people who will adjust to the community, who will be able to survive in that community. I'm wondering, how do you go about breaking that pattern? Because the challenge seems to be getting in new people and getting new people to stay. The two seem to be at odds.

MS. BOSTON: I'd like to speak to the point of the retention and the integration of the immigrant in the rural communities. The association is working with the Pictou Regional Development Commission in terms of developing a provincial welcoming tool kit, which is a template that rural communities can adapt to, helping immigrants or newcomers become more integrated into their community in a faster manner. Therefore,

knowing where to go to get their driver's licence, knowing just the basic living and skills required, whether it's cultural or economic, for rural communities.

This will all be presented in a welcoming tool kit, which we're hoping will have a long-term outcome of integration, as well as the integration into community groups, into, interesting enough in terms of religion or beliefs; working with employers to help understand the cultural diversities, which is another component, as well, for integration and retention. There are numerous initiatives going on, and they all have the common thread of retention and creating a welcoming community for these newcomers.

MR. PREYRA: Just to follow up on that, I haven't seen anything on youth initiatives. In our travels through the province, that seems to be a far bigger challenge, not bringing in new people but keeping people who are there, especially young people. I'm wondering if there are any initiatives aimed particularly at young people in rural areas.

MS. FEWER: I can speak to one, and again this is my chance to really talk about the Colchester Regional Development Agency, and I'm sure if you had another person here, you would hear about what's happening in other communities. But we've partnered up with the Halifax Regional Development Agency on a project called Make Way for YOUth. The whole idea around Make Way for YOUth is youth attraction, youth retention. The concept is that we invite young people back to the community, we connect them with businesses and with community leaders, and we look at how we can help best connect them to employment locally. It's a real issue in our community.

A couple of the things that we do on an annual basis are, we send out Colchester Cares kits to university students who are from Colchester originally and are going to school away - all of the contents are donated by local businesses; we send Web sites to local employment sources, and we say, hey, we care about you, we know you're studying and you're working hard right now, we'd like you to consider coming home for the summer for employment, and here's a kit from our local business community to show that we care. That's one example.

We have a Youth All Stars event every year, where we recognize local leaders, and hope that will incent them to stay home and become leaders in their community. The Make Way for YOUth model is based on providing support services to young people who want to make the move back to the community. We're hoping, again, that if that's successful, that can be used in other parts of the province.

MR. PREYRA: Do you have any sense of what the success rate is? Have you gone to Alberta, for example, and talked to people who have gone there?

MS. FEWER: That's part of what we're talking about, as well, under the Make Way for YOUth strategy. I can't speak to the success rate, because that's a new program for us. We hope that it will help. We know for sure that the largest issue is that young people don't feel like there are employment opportunities available to them. A big part of the project is to try to ensure that they are aware of all the employment opportunities in their community.

MS. BOSTON: What I'd also like to mention is the majority of the RDAs do have a youth adviser on their board, on their local board. We have a youth perspective within community and economic development.

MR. PREYRA: Another question closer to home for me - I had a question about the Farmers' Market. It's one of these great success stories. It attracts a lot of people, both in terms of the market and in terms of producers. As you may know, the Farmers' Market is thinking of moving from its current location to the waterfront. It needs a tremendous amount of money to make the move, and plans are well underway to move the market. The market itself represents a unique partnership between urban buyers, largely, and rural sellers and producers. It has been a success story.

Do you have anything in place that would help facilitate the expansion of this market? They need resources for the building. They'd like to get more producers in. Is there a place where they could go, both for the financing of the project and also for connecting organizations, both producers and consumers?

MS. FEWER: I would suggest they start with the soon to be integrated Halifax Partnership and Halifax Regional Development Agency, and seek their support. They can help them build a business plan that would address their issues.

MS. BOSTON: And also to consider the CEDIF, the instrument for financing as well. That would link the investors, private sector, with the Farmers' Market.

MR. PREYRA: Is there anything in place that would broaden this partnership so that we can use some of the market that Halifax has to get local markets - Superstore, Sobeys and all that - to buy more local products? From the data that I've seen from the Farmers' Market, most of these rural producers survive because of the Farmers' Market. I'm wondering, could that principle be expanded to somehow get these large grocery stores to buy more local products from our rural suppliers?

MS. FEWER: Consumer demand seems to dictate that. What I've noticed over the last five years is that there seems to be a change. Just in the last couple of months in our community, Sobeys held a workshop with local producers to say, how can we best buy from you, and here's what we need to see in place in order to be able to do that. I think it's because consumers are asking more and more for locally grown and locally

produced product. I think we're seeing a little bit of that. I think it has certainly been a limiting factor in the growth of local farmers over the last little while. We'll keep our fingers crossed and hope that we see more.

MR. PREYRA: What are the biggest challenges there? What are the barriers? If you talk to the people at the Farmers' Market, they say, well, we can provide the supply, we just need to get them to make a commitment, or they say, well, they use Mexico and California against us, and they say lettuce is selling for this price, we want you to sell it to us for this price. What are the challenges there, and how do we go about making that happen?

MS. BOSTON: I would say one of the challenges are the regulations around selling farming products, perhaps, to the larger food chains. An example would be the quality control program in the food industry called HACCP. It's a very expensive implementation for small farmers to undertake in order to be HACCP-compliant, which is Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point, in the food industry. Some larger food chains recommend, or will not even consider a product unless it's from ground to actually on the shelf under HACCP compliancy.

Going back to cost of goods sold, that is an additional cost that farmers or local suppliers would have to undertake in order to sell their products to the larger markets, the larger food chains. So compliance, regulations and compliance.

MR. PREYRA: Do I have time for one more question?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: You have just a couple of minutes.

MR. PREYRA: When we had this huge global summit here on micro-credit, it seems like micro-credit is a principle that we can apply to community economic development, but we haven't seen it implemented in any significant way. Most of the financing arrangements, even the ones you talked about today, on a much larger scale, they seem to encourage large initiatives but not small ones.

[9:45 a.m.]

Is there anything in place here that would support small businesses, one-person operations and crafts, and all those other initiatives that seem to happen a lot in rural areas but never really get much support?

MS. FEWER: I would encourage them to go see their community business development corporation, because they do have programs in place where they can provide loans of that magnitude to new and existing businesses. Also, I know the co-op council, as well, has programs that can assist.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you for coming in. It's a very informative topic, no question about that. I have a few questions. Certainly, we talked about the economic impact in your slide, and immigration has been touched on. One of my questions certainly isn't against immigration, but what about the people at home in Nova Scotia? Are we going out to the community colleges and the universities? You talked a little bit about what we're doing, sending away, but are we going to our own universities, community colleges, high schools, composite schools, for example, and saying, how can we help you?

MS. BOSTON: Actually, there are some fabulous examples with employers and the Nova Scotia Community College. If you've had the opportunity to have a quick read of their annual report, because it was just off the press yesterday, an example would be Composites Atlantic actually. That is one of the examples that is working - the company is working with the Nova Scotia Community College in addressing their labour shortage that they do have, currently and anticipated. So they're looking at very customized training for their particular business needs. Composites Atlantic is also able to train people within their training program for the Boatbuilders Association. There's a very complementary role in the type of training that these folks receive, both for that particular company and another industry as well.

The RDAs are instrumental in working with Nova Scotia Community College in addressing the labour shortages with their businesses, in terms of out-of-the-box type of training. Therefore, if somebody wants to take retraining or professional development, are there night courses available, and of course this feeds into innovation as well. We have to look at non-traditional ways of addressing our labour shortage, and that's just one example of what they're doing.

MR. PORTER: Just for clarification, that's a new program that you're now implementing, or is it something that has been in place for a little while?

MS. BOSTON: The community college has been doing that over the last fiscal year.

MR. PORTER: Are there any results? We talk about the interaction programs, what the needs are. A year is up, for example - is there any payoff?

MS. BOSTON: I could not quote those results, but I'm sure the Nova Scotia Community College could quote that for you.

MS. FEWER: I just wanted to speak of another example, which is quite innovative in our community. In Truro, at the campus, we moved from a trades training

campus to a human services campus. We have a lot of trades requirements in that community. So the community college has partnered up with business recently to develop both an automotive and a heavy-duty diesel mechanic program. There are 26 employers at the table who have said, we're going to take those people you're training, they can do their practical training in our workplaces, and there's a very good chance that they will have employment when they're done, if they're successful through this program. So I think you're seeing a lot of innovation at the community college level to work with employers.

MR. PORTER: Would that apply to all students in that program, or just the high, top finishers in the program? I know years ago when I went to trade school, and it was quite a few years ago, there were often employers out there who were looking at who the top, maybe one or two in the class were; looking to take those as opposed to maybe an entire group or partnership or however you want to refer to it.

MS. FEWER: In this particular example, they would have a chance to look - for example, if one of those 26 employers has one student, then if that student works out, that would be who they would offer employment to them at the end, is the thought around it.

MS. BOSTON: If I may add in answer to your question, there is new innovative thinking among employers that are looking at, because of the shortage in the labour for their businesses, development now within their existing staff or their existing human resources, and how can they help do the development, both professional development and educational development, to take them to the next level. A general labourer may have the potential to go to a supervisory level. So they're working within, not only externally.

MR. PORTER: I think in some companies in this province, that has been a practice more in the business or professional side for a number of years, but maybe not so much on the trade side. I have a question with regard to something new I've noticed, and that is - I'll call it a mediation between partners or between parties. The RDAs seem to have some involvement in - I don't want to call it bringing businesses together, but I guess for lack of a better term, and maybe helping them negotiate issues or concerns that are out there within companies in areas.

MS. FEWER: That probably speaks to the Business Retention and Expansion Program that is underway. Though the business visitation program, there are new issues that are coming up that perhaps communities haven't been aware of, so how to bring the right partners together to help resolve those issues.

Also, regional development authorities almost act as coordinators in communities when there are local issues to be resolved, to bring all the different partners together.

MR. PORTER: Is that part of that 650 hours you spoke of, or is that outside of that?

MS. BOSTON: Possibly, and then above that.

MR. PORTER: Possibly part of that, okay. You mentioned, and you called it the Valley Fibre Network.

MS. BOSTON: Yes.

MR. PORTER: I've known it as the Community Fibre Network, coming from the Valley. Is it the same thing?

MS. BOSTON: Yes, it is. It's the same thing.

MR. PORTER: Where is all this at, at this point in time? I was kind of under the understanding, having been on municipal council for a couple of years, that we should have been there by now. Are we behind in this project right now?

MS. BOSTON: You were behind by a couple of months. Just let me backtrack. There's a new executive director down at the Kings CED, which has taken over the initiative to move it forward. There was a delay in the negotiations because the project actually ran over the initial budget that came in and the project was re-scoped, but I know that the project has the commitment of all the funding partners and is moving forward to date.

MR. PORTER: I have just one other question here. What is the per cent of RDA work, I guess - and I want to do a rural versus maybe the HRM or CBRM comparison. How much is there in rural Nova Scotia - I don't know, maybe are they more active in rural Nova Scotia or are they certainly more active in the bigger cities, like Halifax or Sydney? Is there a breakdown of the amount of funding that's provided through the RDA, for example?

MS. BOSTON: The municipal units may contribute more per each RDA, but the federal and provincial governments have fixed contribution amounts. Therefore, our federal government, ACOA and ECBC, we have negotiated agreements at $150,000 per year for core operations per RDA, but on the Island there are two RDAs. ACOA supports mainland Nova Scotia. Our provincial government as well is $150,000 per RDA.

Now our municipal units minimally have to contribute the $150,000, but many of our municipal units contribute more than the $150,000.

MR. PORTER: I guess that's what I was getting at. So the difference would definitely be in the municipal units.

MS. BOSTON: Yes, it is.

MR. PORTER: It would be the only difference. Okay. You mentioned the annual business plan, fiscal calendar - they are different, did you say?

MS. FEWER: They could be. Each regional development agency is incorporated on its own, as a not for-profit organization or under the RDA Act and so their fiscal years are determined by them. I think most go from April to March.

MS. BOSTON: Yes, the majority are April to March.

MR. PORTER: I was just thinking about government budgets, the municipal budgets, we all seem to be on the same timeline. How does that affect the business plan? Maybe it doesn't, I guess maybe it doesn't at all if they're mostly . . .

MS. BOSTON: It impacts the business planning cycle. We didn't speak about the mid-year review but it is an accountability that takes place, which is usually in late October, early November, early December. But it's a mid-point evaluation on reporting on outcomes from the annual business plan: are you on target; can we have a look at what's not being accomplished and why not; and maybe just do a re-positioning to make sure that the outcomes are achieved. That's based on the fiscal year planning.

MR. PORTER: That would be covered in the annual report, some of those numbers.

MS. BOSTON: Yes.

MR. PORTER: Just quickly, if I still have a minute I'll ask one more question.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: One minute.

MR. PORTER: Thank you, Madam Chairman. Those results, then, they are all published - I don't have enough time but I'll go through and read them there.

MS. BOSTON: I'd like to point out the accountability model that we use is called the logic model. It's a Treasury Board of Canada reporting framework. It's a contribution analysis type model. So we use qualitative and quantitative measurements in that logic model. Therefore, we will be able to perhaps articulate the number of jobs created, but we can also articulate the value of a community development initiative for a long-term outcome for that particular community.

I encourage you to look at that particular accountability model. It's actually one of the reasons why we're considered a best practice because our funding partners, federal and provincial, have collectively agreed to use this as a reporting on our outcomes. It's kind of threatening in the term, but it's actually quite interesting to look at the outcomes.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thanks a lot. Mr. Theriault, it's your turn.

MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you also for your presentation. It's pretty positive. I certainly try to be a positive person myself. I certainly am in favour of economic development in our regional areas. I appreciate you speaking of the Colchester area, how well it's doing, and the Cape Breton area, how well it's doing, and the South Shore area, how well it's doing, under Frank Anderson. I kind of watch it all.

Anyway, I'm going to get a little negative here, because I hope that maybe you have an answer at the end of this. If not, maybe you can help me find it. Approximately a year ago, or a little over a year, the Western Valley Development Authority disbanded. I'm not sure why. I believe that will probably be one of the questions, why the municipalities have such a say over that local authority. But for the last year or so down home, positive everywhere else, the way you talk, but down home we're trying to take over ferry boats, run them ourselves, and have pie sales to get our wharves back. We're just trying to hang on there. There's no great growth. Shaw Wood is shutting down, the Weymouth mill is shutting down, and on and on it goes. I don't have the list here, but it's a long one. People moving out West continues - that's another question.

I just want to know, and I've never had this answered, whatever truly happened to the Western Valley Development Authority? I thought it was doing fairly well. Two or three people who may have been on that board - I'll mention no names - didn't seem to think so, so let's do away with it. At least they were trying to hang onto things. Maybe there wasn't much growth there, I'm not sure. Can you fill me in, fill this committee in, on what happened to the WVDA? For the past seven months, the municipality puts out a statement every month - next month we're having a new RDA in place. That has been going on since April. Just this month, this month starting, now it's next month again, January starting. This is the local municipality saying this. I don't know if you're aware of this, but you are now.

MS. BOSTON: We're very aware.

MR. THERIAULT: Can you answer some of this for me, the two, three questions there? Fill me in.

MS. BOSTON: First of all, we greatly miss the Western Valley Development Authority. We greatly miss the impact that it was making within those communities. One

of its success stories was it created a smart community, implementing technology that became a best practice in international markets. What happened there, it was a political conversation with municipal government that they felt that the Western Valley Development Authority was not aligning itself with the needs of the business community. Now having said that, there are opportunities for all citizens to participate in community town hall discussions on the development of strategic plans, which is something that Jo Ann talked about. We are mandated under the RDA Act to have strategic plans through community consultations.

If the ship wasn't going the right way, then there was an opportunity there to voice an opinion; all did not have to be lost. What happened is the municipal units in that particular area decided that they would make a recommendation to set up a new board for Western Valley, and try to right that organization. Unfortunately, the discussions were not fruitful; therefore, they decided to disband the organization and let it, in their wisdom, work together to try to form a new economic development organization under the Municipal Government Act.

[10:00 a.m.]

In the Province of Nova Scotia, the provincial government will not support community economic development, RDAs that are in an inter-municipal government Act. They encourage communities to work together, federal, provincial and municipal, under the RDA Act, which also allows a 33 per cent contribution for a 99.9 per cent return on your community.

Now, having municipal governments and provincial governments and the federal government work with the communities, and the RDAs lead the community consultations for the development of the mission and the vision of that community for the next five years - it's very difficult to have consensus on all those different initiatives.

We are also kept abreast of the development of the new organization, and we feel that in the very near future there will be an announcement of a new economic development organization in Digby. We have been waiting as well. We feel the communities are not being served as they could be under an RDA type of model. I hope I answered your question.

MR. THERIAULT: You answered it the same way the municipality answered it - very soon. (Laughter) The wharves fall down, the boats go and everything is going to hell, but very soon we're going to have an RDA. I hear it every month.

MS. FEWER: I wish we could have more involvement in expediting that, we really do.

MR. THERIAULT: So you essentially don't have a whole lot of say on what happens in the region.

MS. FEWER: I'm using Holly's comments - we're not a head office, we're a supporting, membership-driven organization, so one of our members has decided to disband and we're hoping they come back very soon.

MR. THERIAULT: Is it possible for the Digby area to amalgamate with the South Shore Development Association?

MS. BOSTON: A conversation of your municipal leaders would have to take place.

MR. THERIAULT: It has been suggested, but that's not a good idea.

MS. BOSTON: Yes, and you know - well, the facts are Clare did that, a neighbouring community in your particular region.

MR. THERIAULT: And they're doing well.

MS. BOSTON: We hope to have them back in the fold very shortly.

MS. FEWER: I know they've advertised for an executive director and did I see something about calling for board members?

MS. BOSTON: I haven't seen that.

MR. THERIAULT: One more question - the labour and skills shortage. How does your association or the RDAs feel about the out-migration? No matter what we do here, we cannot stop this out-migration of our people out West, to what's attracting them out there. Maybe they're not doing that well once they get there, but this attraction - in every little newspaper you open up, come on out West and fill your pockets - just like the Klondike. Have the RDAs worked on trying to turn this around somehow?

I know one family that lived beside my mother. He made $30,000, $35,000 a year, and she made $20,000, $25,000 - $50,000 a year living on Digby Neck, that's big bucks. That's as good as $500,000 out in Alberta, but they packed up with their children and left. Now their house is for sale.

MS. FEWER: It's a problem that's not going to go away in the very near future. It's something that we're going to be dealing with for the next decade at least and it's something that all of the RDAs are grappling with. We held a labour force summit about

a month ago, to start to look at that issue again. We have to bring all the players to the table because it's such a huge issue that we can't tackle it on our own.

We're talking to the Department of Education, Nova Scotia Business Inc., but I'm seeing small glimmers of hope. We're seeing in our community a company that has moved here that all of their business is in Alberta but all of the people working in that company were from Nova Scotia, so they knew they could do the work in Nova Scotia for that company out West. I know Nova Scotia Business Inc. is looking at that trend and looking at how they can attract more companies here with people who were traditionally from here, to work in those types of companies. So there are opportunities in that way.

We just held a Come Home to Colchester event that was a way to bring people back again for exploratory visits to look at what the job opportunities are. We'd like to see the provincial effort in that way as well. I think we need to all come together. I think it's a provincial issue, it's an Atlantic-wide issue, and we need to really start talking to each other to figure out how to address that issue. But there are glimmers of hope.

MR. THERIAULT: Thank you.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr. Bain.

MR. KEITH BAIN: Thank you, Madam Chairman. Just very briefly, first of all, you mentioned about broadband. I know Victoria County, I believe, is now embarking on Phase III of their broadband initiative. I stand to be corrected, but I think this might provide broadband to all of the municipality. It's as a result of all the organizations working together.

You made mention before about the Sydney area, and one that I'm familiar with is the Sydney Mines renewal. I think that's exactly what it was, too. It's a renewal not only of the storefronts of the infrastructure, but it's a renewal of the attitude of the community. They have great respect for their community and everything else. I guess my question is, they formed their own association, they have their own board of directors, they hire their own project managers - once everything is set up, what's the involvement of, in this case, CBCEDA in seeing that through to completion?

MS. BOSTON: Two things, it's the coordination and facilitation of both that particular project and the dollars for accountability purposes, and the establishment of that committee is for sustainability. Therefore, there's a transfer of knowledge from CBCEDA to that community. The RDAs do not take ownership of those initiatives. It's very important for sustainability to transfer that knowledge and that ownership to that community. Therefore, when CBCEDA walks away, the initiative is not lost; it's instilled in the people who have taken the ownership of it.

MR. BAIN: So as a follow-up to that, when the Sydney downtown development started two years ago, do they tap into the resources or the knowledge that the Sydney Mines renewal - what roadblocks they might have met? Is it all encompassing, I guess that's my question?

MS. BOSTON: They would be sharing the challenges and opportunities to make that project a success.

MR. BAIN: The sharing of that would come through CBCEDA?

MS. BOSTON: Yes, or through community members as well. Maybe in an ad hoc way, a conversation at Tim Hortons.

MR. BAIN: But the formal - if we could call it formal - would come through CBCEDA?

MS. BOSTON: Yes.

MR. BAIN: The sharing of information.

MS. BOSTON: Yes, unless there's a confidentiality issue.

MR. BAIN: That's great. Thanks.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you, Madam Chairman. I want to congratulate the chairman on having the foresight to have someone named Holly here on December 12^th. (Laughter) It seems rather appropriate at this time of year.

I can't say enough good about the co-operation that I've had over the years with the Cape Breton Economic Development Authority, and Eileen Oldford and staff in Cape Breton. For communities like Glace Bay and Sydney Mines and Sydney, it has made a world of difference. Economic development authorities are, in my opinion, underfunded. We all know that. You could do marvellous work if you had more money - it's as simple as that.

In Cape Breton there's a particular problem. If you take into account all of the economic development agencies there - CEDA, the Office of Economic Development, NSBI, there's an economic development officer with the regional municipality, there's ECBC, there's a Cape Breton partnership, the board of trade - with that many economic development agencies, you would think noone would be unemployed. But the unemployment rate is 13 per cent right now. So obviously there's still a problem there.

One of the problem areas that I've seen over the years is that people who are looking for help from these agencies start out by seeking their help and are told - for instance, if they go to ECBC, they're told their company is too small, and if they were to go to the economic development authority, they're told their company is too big, and so there is a grey area there and they fall through the cracks, so to speak, of where to go. That's one of the problems that I see, and it's one of the problem areas that I think the economic development authority is starting to play a bigger role in. When you said coordination and facilitation, that's exactly the role that they should be playing in Cape Breton.

Those are just a few comments I have on a very positive side. I know in my riding alone, with the renewal of the downtown area, and recently CBCEDA had a lot to do with the opening of the UNIA black history museum in Glace Bay - these are things that other agencies did not have the time for. But with the facilitation by CBCEDA, they were convinced that it was the right thing to do. So I think they have a strong role to play in terms of getting the message through to the other economic development agencies, the big guys, like Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation and so on.

Those are my comments on that subject, but I did want to know, when you touched on broadband and wireless technology, I wanted to know the opinion of your association, as a regional development agency association, how you feel about the current situation with the Community Access Program and what's happening with the cancellation of that program coming up fairly soon. What does that mean in terms of your association, and how many people do you think it will affect and how will it affect some of the programs you're talking about here today?

MS. BOSTON: If I may take the macro level of that comment, when the announcement was first made the RDAs did send in their comments on how this would impact their communities, which were forwarded to the Department of Economic Development to share and to pass along to our counterparts at the federal level through the proper protocol.

How will it impact a community? Perhaps Jo Ann could speak to that.

MS. FEWER: I know that it's certainly something that our communities are grappling with and are very concerned about. The Community Access Program does more than provide high-speed or Internet service in communities. There are several initiatives underway that provide training on basic computer skills, basic computer literacy skills in communities. It is a place where people can go to gather in small communities that might not have another place to go and gather. So it does have - it's an area of concern.

I guess we haven't developed a formal position statement about it yet in our community so I can't speak to that, but I know that the CAP committees are working toward that.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Well, I know there are over 1 million people who use the CAP sites in Nova Scotia; roughly about 1.8 million people last year used those CAP sites. You have made reference to the fact that the Premier is saying high-speed, broadband Internet across the province and wants to make sure that all parts of the province have access to it, but there are those people who do not have a laptop and who do not have computers in their homes. The way they access the Internet, they access it whether it be libraries or whatever the case may be, community centres. This is, as you well know, where these CAP sites are located.

Those people will not be able to take advantage of any kind of broadband Internet access across the province because they won't be able to do it. I would imagine - have you been involved, as an association, in any of the negotiations around the CAP site - I don't want to call it a controversy, a discussion let's say?

MS. FEWER: I guess our regional development agency is part of the Northern Region CAP Committee and they are in discussions with how to respond to this. I haven't been directly involved and I can get you that information, if you're interested but I . . .

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): It would just seem to make sense to me that if the federal government is thinking about cancelling out of this and the provincial government is possibly - although the Premier says it's not the province's place to take over, but perhaps there could be some funding there - that it would be the first step I would do would be to contact your association, since you represent RDAs, and ask for your input.

MS. BOSTON: That has been done and we have sent in our facts to support the argument of not to close these CAP sites. So that's where it stands at this point in time, that we have provided information to support our arguments, through our communities and through the association which went to our provincial Department of Economic Development.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): Thank you very much.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Epstein.

[10:15 a.m.]

MR. EPSTEIN: Well, thank you. It turns out that Junior's comments are just as interesting as the comments of our presenters. I found it interesting to hear a suggestion that there might be a link-up between the Valley and the South Shore. I'll keep that in mind the next time we're redesigning the constituencies under the House of Assembly Act. I'll think about that.

As for the Western Valley RDA, it seems to me - this is the one I think - was Janet Larkman the Executive Director of that one?

MS. FEWER: Yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: She's a very smart person. I think this committee has actually heard from her on at least one occasion and she was very impressive. As I understand it, there was infighting amongst all the local municipal governments. There's going to be a municipal election in the Fall of 2008 and, Junior, you can do something about that, I guess.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Glace Bay): He's staying here as an MLA. (Laughter)

MR. EPSTEIN: No, I didn't mean he personally would run, I think he could find good candidates.

I do have some questions for you. I find this quite an interesting presentation. What I'm concerned about, though, is the extent to which there's objective data that might actually tell us the extent to which the RDAs have been able to deliver on what their mandate encompasses. I read in your documents that you're looking forward to using the 2006 census data when it is made publicly available for anyone who wants to look at it, but that's going to be a while away. In the meantime, we do have some data on what has occurred in terms of population and employment and income since the time the RDAs actually did get up and running, which was more than a decade - is it almost 15 years ago now?

MS. BOSTON: Some are 15, yes.

MR. EPSTEIN: I'm wondering if you've done that kind of analysis. We hear constantly about out-migration, we hear that Nova Scotia as a whole has lost population. It's only 3,000 or so, but we do know those figures from 2001 to 2006, so there's a slight decline. We know that outside of the capital urban core, of course, there has been depopulation; that's true, I think, of virtually all the counties in Cape Breton and rural areas of the province, that it's an aging population, as well, and that the unemployment levels are higher than they are in metro. We know these things.

So it seems to me that there are at least some indicators of where the economic trends are in the areas that you mostly represent. In the capital urban core, there isn't an RDA. There is an HRM RDA. We've heard from them on previous occasions as well, and they made it clear that they really concentrate on the suburban and rural areas of HRM, not on the urban core where it's the Greater Halifax Partnership and maybe the chamber of commerce that get going.

If we're looking at the areas outside of the capital's urban core, what are we to think? Are we to think that you've lost population, you have higher rates of unemployment, and you have an aging population, do we conclude that there's a very mixed success record, or can we look at something and say, well, it would be a lot worse if we weren't there, or we have successes in different ways? I'm concerned about objective identifiers. You pointed to - what was it you called it? - the Treasury Board of Canada system, called what?

MS. BOSTON: The logic model.

MR. EPSTEIN: The logic model, does that stand for something or does it just mean it's logical? (Interruptions)

MS. BOSTON: It's what we have to use.

MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, that's fine. What I'm wondering is what if anything can you point us towards that would really indicate successes? When I look at the report from Colchester County, it seems to me it steers away, I have to say, from any objective measures. It gives a few specific examples of immigrants, and it gives a few specific examples of new businesses, but it doesn't give something that says, okay, here's the increase in our total population, or decrease as the case may be, or here's the increase in family or household income, or decrease as the case may be, or here are unemployment and employment statistics, or here are participation rate statistics. It doesn't say that. Is it because that's all missing? What can you tell us?

MS. FEWER: There are so many answers to your question.

MR. EPSTEIN: I know there are lots of questions bound up there, and both of you might take a whack at it.

MS. FEWER: It's hard to know where to start, but just to speak to the logic model for a minute, it talks about what the organization's contribution is to the economy. So we can't claim to - what we can claim is our contribution to an economic impact and how what we're doing could or could not change that economic impact. So there are many trends - like the poll from Alberta - that are something, in terms of a regional development agency, the direct control over - we can't stop people at the border from

leaving, but we can help to encourage our businesses to be competitive with some of the companies in Alberta, for example. So that's the type of work that we're looking at.

In terms of our annual business plan, our regional plan is going to be able to - our five-year growth strategy and how we measure that is based on those counts, the population. We've looked at an average annual income level now of just under $20,000. We're trying to increase that average annual income level to $25,000 by 2010. That's our specific goal for that regional development authority, and then we've identified ways in our regional plan to do that. So those counts come in on a five-year type of basis. This document talks about what we've done in this particular year to meet those objectives.

MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, I'm sorry, but that sounds to me again like a goal for the future. I'm wondering, with 10 or 15 years' experience, whether there are things we can look at now and actually identify as milestones, things that have been accomplished.

I want to be clear, I'm not hostile, I think that RDAs are wonderful things, but we just have to understand what we're dealing with. We have to understand whether we're actually going to see progress that you can measure, or whether it's a question of something that's a little more based on philosophy and faith which says if we hadn't been here it would have been a heck of a lot worse. I think we just have to know in which realm we're dealing and I don't think we know from this. I haven't heard yet anything that indicates one way or the other.

MS. BOSTON: I'd like to offer a response to that. Community economic development is almost a high-level type of concept, so therefore, to put exact measurements to it is a long-term objective. However, in terms of increasing population, it's very difficult to do over the duration of a two-year period and say we've increased it by x number and this was our objective.

Having said that, we do have tools in place in order to do that. An example would be - and it's in your briefing notes - the Community Counts database. To avoid duplication and the best utilization of public funds, we partner with other organizations, including the Department of Finance and Statistics Canada, to provide that statistically sound information for us to use in terms of measuring our contribution towards economic development.

MR. EPSTEIN: I'm sorry, what was the two-year measurement time that you were talking about?

MS. BOSTON: That was an example, that if we were measuring increasing population over a two-year period, we would perhaps use the data that's available through some of our other partners and then do collective information. I'll give you an example. Through our Business Retention and Expansion Program we do have the

capacity now to use a technology to enter data, so therefore, we'll be able to benchmark results and then build strategies to address any of those concerns.

MR. EPSTEIN: Does this mean that we've had organizations in place for 10 years, and in some cases 15 years, where the process of objective evaluation was not in place until now?

MS. BOSTON: No, I'm saying that was one component and it's actually being strengthened, using modern technology, to be able to report on tangible outcomes.

MR. EPSTEIN: So what are the tangible outcomes that have been measured so far?

MS. BOSTON: Well, we've always been able to articulate the number of jobs that have increased, a decline in population or based on data that's available though Statistics Canada, Department of Finance, Nova Scotia, Target Nova Scotia, but of course that uses the database by Statistics Canada and now the Community Counts database, which is a combination of Statistics Canada and developed by the Department of Finance.

MR. EPSTEIN: So is there some place we could look for the stats on jobs increased over that time? Where would we find those?

MS. BOSTON: The Department of Finance.

MR. EPSTEIN: Well, in that case, those are the figures that I'm already familiar with, which would indicate that, in fact, the picture is not as good as I think one would hope. Who gets to set the objectives? Is it the local board for each RDA?

MS. BOSTON: The community, and it's approved by the local board.

MS. FEWER: And then it's approved by the local municipalities and our two levels of government that support us every year. I think also it would be unwise for us to think that the state of the economy is directly related to one source or another. It could be a business that's moving out of a single-industry town . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: I don't think that. It's a complicated picture and, as I said before, I'm not hostile, I think RDAs are necessary. I don't think we should give up on having them, I think that we should keep up our efforts. I'm just trying to know what we're dealing with, which is hard.

Can I shift and ask about something else? Earlier on you identified problems with skill shortages, and you took that term and you broke it down into several components,

one being it could simply mean lack of people or it could mean a lack of people with skills or it could mean problems with wages. I'm wondering if you identify any hierarchy amongst those. Of those three components, is there one that's more or less pressing, or are they all equally pressing?

MS. FEWER: I think it's dependent on the community you're in.

MR. EPSTEIN: Let's take Colchester County then.

MS. FEWER: Well, in Colchester County, our greatest demand is in the entry-level workforce. We need workers, period, who are skilled and capable with basic skills to enter our workplaces. Skills trades would then be the next area of shortage, but our local employers are crying for those entry-level employees. I just read this morning in a labour market brief that the number employed in Nova Scotia has increased, but the available labour force has decreased. Again, that speaks to the out-migration and other factors. We're facing out-migration and an aging demographic. It's a problem, like I mentioned, that's not going to go away any time soon.

MR. EPSTEIN: Good point. Thanks a lot.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Ms. Conrad.

MS. VICKI CONRAD: I think, Holly, some time back we spoke on the phone, probably a year or so ago. You probably can't remember, but I did as soon as I saw your name. As a former consumer of business support services many years ago, and I think just during the start-up of some of the RDAs and certainly the RDA along the South Shore, as a consumer, knowing nothing about what services were available for a start-up business, I walked into, I believe it would have been the unemployment office, looking at the rack of different agencies. There were actually quite a few brochures, and I really didn't know where to start, but I kind of picked one. There was a contact number for services in my immediate area.

But I noticed when I started looking through all of the brochures that I had in my hand that almost all of the particular agencies or organizations offered similar services to me. I could walk into the municipality, talk to the economic development officer there and be offered contact information or where to look for what, or do you need a little bit of help with your business plan, and here are the first steps you can follow. I could walk into the South Shore Opportunities, and at that time I don't think it was South Shore Opportunities, but I could walk into that particular office and get very similar information. And I could even get that same sort of information from the unemployment office, through - what they had at the time was a self-employment assistance program. I could also walk into the local Native Council office, or First Nations office, and talk to their economic development officers and get similar information.

As that consumer, I had an array of places to kind of start, but all pretty much offering the same set of services. Now I understand the RDAs operate as that support, but as a consumer I could probably come to you as an individual and say, look, here's a business idea, this is what I want to do, walk me through the steps, and you would offer me that same service, but you also offer that support system for all of those economic development groups, agencies, organizations in my communities.

I heard a member across the way indicate perhaps better coordination and facilitation for all of these different agencies offering similar services. I wonder, do you see that duplication as being a hindrance, and perhaps having some missed opportunities, or do you actually see that as better services offered for the consumer out there or for the community as a whole?

[10:30 a.m.]

MS. BOSTON: A great question, and one we encounter many times when I give presentations. We have identified that the perception of duplication - and I'm saying that at a macro level - is confusing to the consumer. Usually when we drill down there's a complementary role that each one of those organizations plays to one other. We've tried to combat that to a certain extent with the regional development authorities by having co-location. Therefore, it's almost like a seamless integration or a seamless handover based on the need of that particular individual, business or community interest group walking into a regional development office.

I'll give you an example. When you walk into Cumberland County, as a consumer of business needs, wanting to do a start-up or entrepreneur or innovation, you would walk to one reception area. But located under that one roof, we have our career resource centre, we have our broadband, we have our community-based development corporations, we have our regional development authorities and numerous partners that are co-located. Therefore, it just looks like one location, but we've enabled each of the staff members to be ambassadors of each of the organizations to do the seamless handover. So we've identified that the coordination needs to be stronger.

Also, under the Business Retention and Expansion Program within those rural communities, we've created local action teams which are partners of the particular projects, or community partners. Nova Scotia Community College would be an example, the CBDCs, various community partners. So therefore, when an issue arises through the business community, that business owner is not tasked with going around the community trying to find the solution. That concern is brought to this local action team for address and the Business Retention and Expansion account manager brings it, on behalf of that business owner, to this committee - it may be the same size as here today - and together, collectively, they find a solution for that particular individual, someone takes ownership of that and addresses it with that business person.

So again, trying to promote the collaboration and co-operation among the multiple players in the field without confusing the public even more so, it's our responsibility to streamline those. As I mentioned, the majority of the time there are complementary mandates there and they shouldn't be perceived as conflicting mandates as such.

MS. FEWER: If you were to walk into my office with a business idea right now, if you needed self-employment benefits services, that would be us. If you need a business planning service, that would be us. If you needed a small business loan, between $5,000 to $100,000, that would be the Community Business Development Corporation; if you needed larger than that and wanted to talk about investment, it might be Nova Scotia Business Inc.; and if you wanted to talk about a sector-specific loan at zero interest, it would be ACOA.

What we would do is that initial assessment and then make sure we get you the right partners in the right room to talk about what that would be. Quite often some of the pre-work, like the writing of the business plan and whatnot, happens at an RDA level because some of the other areas can't make assessment on the loan and help write the business plan at the same time. So that's the type of thing that we've worked out in our community, to say look, here's what we can do and here's what you'll do. It's pre-determined so that it's easier for the customer.

MS. CONRAD: But I could also walk into that Community Economic Development Office and get that same information.

MS. FEWER: From anyone.

MS. CONRAD: Okay. Another couple of comments and perhaps questions out of those comments. I just lost my train of thought for a moment. So as an RDA then, and having community board members sit on that board, we in Queens have gone without a chamber of commerce in South Queens for some time. Would that be something that perhaps one of your board members or a local board member would be speaking to in terms of when you're talking to our local community economic development agency, as to the importance of promoting the need for a chamber or to revitalize a chamber that once was and is no longer there. Is that part of your support system as the overarching RDA but also promoting that through the community board members?

MS. FEWER: If that were identified as a community need, then certainly the RDA should play a role to help revitalize the chamber, bring the people together in the room, help with the governance issue and what it should look like, and facilitate some of the meetings if the need be. That would be the type of service that would be provided.

MS. BOSTON: Just for a point of clarity on the association, we focus on provincial-wide issues that are mutually beneficial to all the RDAs, so if one RDA has been challenged with an issue, unless there's support that's required among its peers, the association cannot really work on one particular initiative, unless I take it to the executive and we decided to help that particular RDA. But it's important to understand that the association is a membership-driven organization for the RDAs, collectively.

MS. CONRAD: Just tell me or explain to me what that in-the-loop looks like. On the South Shore, our Queens-Lunenburg RDA would have community members, board members from each of the respective counties or municipalities, or are there business folks on the board?

MS. BOSTON: It would be all of that.

MS. CONRAD: All of the above?

MS. BOSTON: Yes.

MS. CONRAD: Okay. So at a regular meeting then, if everything was kind of going along tickety-boo in one particular area, say the municipality's economic development department kind of has things under wraps, how they are kind of moving forward - the local economic development agency - and if there's really nothing to be done, say, for the next month from the RDA's perspective, what would happen? I guess I'm trying to see what that loop looks like?

MS. FEWER: I'd love to see what that looks like. (Laughter) In terms of how RDAs are structured, they're very different from community to community. All of the members of our regional development agency are appointed by three municipal councils, we have three councils on it, and the rest are members at large, of 13 total members. It could be membership based. In Kings County it's membership, so you buy a $5 membership, and of their members they elect the board of directors every year.

MS. CONRAD: That's the community at large? So I can buy a membership into the local RDA.

MS. FEWER: That's right.

MS. BOSTON: Only one RDA offers that, though.

MS. FEWER: It's different in each community, how the appointments to the boards come in. But with each initiative using a community economic development model, most of the initiatives are driven by volunteers. It doesn't necessarily have to be the board of directors. So, for example, our immigration initiative is an immigration

partnership that consists of new immigrants, of realtors in the community, of the Department of Education, and all the different players that would help ease a transition into the community. The same with our innovation project - it's the employment service agencies, interested volunteers, et cetera. You build those types of volunteer committees based on each of the projects.

If I could speak back to the chamber initiative you're talking about, if there's an area that would like to see a revitalization of a chamber of commerce, then immediately we'd go to the business community and say, how do we do this, is this something that's of interest to you, can you come around the table and make that happen? It wouldn't be our CoRDA board that would do that, it would be a group of volunteers that we would assemble for that purpose. Our role would be to help you come to that, figure out what that could look like.

MS. CONRAD: Could I ask another . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, you have a couple of minutes.

MS. CONRAD: I want to say that I'm really pleased to see the CEDIF program. I think it's a wonderful investment opportunity for Nova Scotians. I had the pleasure of working within a CEDIF a few years ago. I don't think it is publicized enough. I think most Nova Scotians aren't aware that there is potential to invest in local businesses within their own communities, and I'm hoping that the RDAs, along with other economic development agencies, really move that forward. I understand that at some point in time it will be on the table again to see if the CEDIF programs are working, what the outcomes are, and do we chop it or do we continue it. I'm really hoping that there's going to be more advocacy for the CEDIF program. When I was first introduced to it, I just thought it was a wonderful investment tool for Nova Scotians and keeping money at home.

As you know, rural Nova Scotia is struggling economically, and with that struggle there are a lot of challenges with our small schools closing in a lot of communities, which tends to keep communities from growing. Once a school is closed, it becomes more difficult to bring young families in. It becomes more difficult to keep existing businesses going once a community starts to kind of fall apart. I'm wondering, is there any advocacy from the local RDAs for rural schools, the importance that they do have in terms of our economic stability in rural Nova Scotia?

Along with that, I want to ask another question around small businesses and the advocacy role of the RDA in conjunction with other agencies to really promote our small businesses, both new small businesses coming onstream and our existing businesses, trying to advocate for less red tape for some of our small businesses. In the last couple of months, I've had several people come into my office who own and operate small

businesses. They find that as each year goes by, it becomes more of a struggle for them to stay in business; they are kind of grasping at straws. It's not that they're in need necessarily of more investment capital, what they are in need of is better incentives to keep them staying in business.

One gentleman, for example, told me that he has his wife hired to work in the businesses; however, he cannot claim her as an employee because the business is operated from home. If he had an office outside of his home property, then he would be eligible for some incentives in terms of claiming the value of her income or her employment.

Another company came my way just last week, actually, where an existing business that has been quite successful for the last 10 years is looking to sell the business. Two of the employees banded together to take over this business. They went to the local community business agency to walk through that process. After a three-month period of creating the business plan, getting all the facts and figures together, crunching the numbers, and already proving that yes, indeed, it is a viable business, they were turned down for the money needed to purchase the business, or that small capital that they were looking for. So the level of frustration was, well, there's no real support once we're in business and then to even get a business off the ground. So there are a couple of questions around the school closures and whether you advocate for the economic potential that schools have for a community and then the advocacy for small businesses.

MS. BOSTON: I'd like to first answer the small business one. The RDAs work in identification of some of those red tape issues, but they partner with other organizations to bring those concerns forward. I'll mention the Canadian Federation of Independent Business that has lobbied quite strongly over the last five years in red tape reduction, and so some success at the federal and provincial level, have streamlined some of that red tape for small-business owners. So the RDAs would work with the CFIB to assist in the reduction of that red tape and the identification of the issues and other organizations as well.

In terms of lobbying government, we would bring the information forward, but "lobby" would be quite a strong word for regional development authorities to use. Because what would be applicable for one business, and we could talk about a bed and breakfast that I believe takes 46 certificates - and don't quote me on that - in order to get up and running. That concern is not the concern of a manufacturer who needs, again, a HACCP compliance certificate in order to export, but the red tape is an issue. I know that Service Canada also has a new program to go online to quickly identify what is required for small businesses to get up and operational in a faster manner.

I come from a banking background and in terms of understanding the capital needs for start-up businesses, there are many variables that go into that equation before

financing is secured. It may prove itself to be a viable business, but it's also considered outward-looking; you know, what's the trend on this particular business, what's the ratio of the investment versus the ratio of the loan? So there are many facets that you have to consider before that loan or that investment from a bank or from an angel investor is secured. Without knowing all the intimate details of that particular loan application and why it was turned down, it would be difficult to pinpoint where the solution would be.

MS. CONRAD: Thank you. I can certainly say that it's quite difficult for a small-business owner to be out there funding that investment capital.

MS. FEWER: I guess the benefit of the Business Retention and Expansion Program now, as well, is that if that were a case, we could bring it to a business team to say, what's the potential here? How do we ensure that this is a successful business? What is required? Maybe it's more equity investment on the part of the business purchaser or someone who would know, but at least there's a group of people now who can say, let's see what we can do to help this person move ahead. It might be a municipal by-law or something, who knows?

[10:45 a.m.]

In terms of the school issue, closing schools, closing infrastructure - again we really need to concentrate on how to increase our population in this province because as you know, the Department of Education counts by head the number of students enrolled in schools, so we need to concentrate on things like attracting new immigrants and bringing people home, bringing expatriates home to look at how we can get those numbers up in our classrooms again so that schools don't close. That's my opinion in terms of where we put our energy and where we're proactive.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think we have a few questions from Mr. Dunn.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: Perhaps just a couple of comments. Thank you for your presentation, it's always very interesting. Merry Christmas, Holly. Concerning out-migration, I know approximately, I would say probably six years ago, I was looking for an industrial arts/technology teacher at the high school I was involved with. In that particular year, I think there were probably five or six graduating from a university. Because we were not aggressive enough, five of them left for Ontario prior to getting their certification. They stayed to get their certification but they were already signed up and had a job waiting for them in September. Since that, I think our school boards are allowing the schools to be a little more aggressive, especially in the French, science, math areas.

Going to the Nova Scotia Community College, and I'm familiar with the Pictou campus in Stellarton, I believe because of the out-migration of a lot of skilled people,

pipe fitters, machinists, heavy-duty equipment, there's a lot of pressure and stress on the community college, in talking to trades instructors. There's such a demand for people who are in the trades at the colleges to leave, to go to the sites, to train on-site as opposed to staying at the community college. We've had several discussions with some of the instructors, suggesting that maybe they can do the theory part of it on-line, or perhaps they could come back in the evenings to do some of the theory, which creates a problem because most of the instructors are there during the day. There are some shops, the demand for the number of people who want to get into them, they can't accommodate them. Again, there's quite a stress on the community colleges today with regard to the shortages.

I think they're doing a fine job as far as going into the high schools and letting people know what's available at that particular level, but I think they can be more aggressive in pursuing a lot of students who perhaps shouldn't be going in other routes, such as university or whatever. I just wanted to make those comments.

MS. BOSTON: It's interesting to see the linkage now between industry and education that's taking place. I'm thinking about the Dexter Institute actually at the college in Dartmouth, the Akerley Campus that has made that connection between their demand and the supply and increasing the supply for that. That actually encompasses both on-line training, as well as practical training to look at that balance. It's a new way of thinking. It's industry and educational institutions.

MS. FEWER: I'd just like to add, it is troublesome from an RDA perspective when you speak about the trades and the fact that companies are coming from away to recruit right out of community college, they're coming right into the classrooms. We, in terms of trying to encourage people to stay in the communities, are competing with those companies that are coming in and offering jobs right in the classrooms. It's an issue, for sure.

MR. DUNN: The campus itself in Stellarton has been very successful as far as employment afterwards. I think it's maybe 95 per cent successful. Of course, not all are staying here in Nova Scotia.

MS. BOSTON: There's movement afoot as well to work with industry in terms of looking at the business opportunities out West, but making sure the manufacturing and the production happens here at home in Nova Scotia. Therefore it keeps our families here. So there is movement afoot in terms of that, as well. The trade missions that are taking place are not necessarily taking place overseas anymore, they're taking place to our provinces out West, looking for opportunities to make sure we keep our employment opportunities and our youth for employment here as well.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. We've all had a chance to ask questions, which is good. I think we have a lot more questions for other meetings coming up. I think it's interesting that this afternoon the Human Resources Committee is actually hearing from the Dexter Training Institute about their institute, where they're trying to address the skill shortages. So that does tie in to a lot of the questions we had here today. I want to thank both Ms. Fewer and Ms. Boston for being here today and sharing with us the work you're doing in the province. Thank you very much on behalf of the committee.

For committee members, we have just a quick bit of business to attend to, and that is to set several topics for the upcoming months. The informal committee, I'll call it, that was setting the agenda, had just chosen to pick one from each of the three caucuses' suggestions. From Mr. Porter, we heard the choice of Research in Motion, which is a good news story around high-tech and growth in the province.

From the Liberal caucus we had asked for the Retail Gasoline Dealers Association of Nova Scotia. I think that one is somewhat time-sensitive because there was a six-month review to take place on the regulation of gasoline. So if we were to hear from them in the new year I think first, if everybody is in agreement . . .

MR. EPSTEIN: Actually, didn't we have another item that's coming - yes, we have the issue of the electricity marketplace. That's next on the agenda, as I remember. That's the next item.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: All right, I wasn't aware of that because we didn't have anything organized as yet, Darlene didn't know that there was anything else coming.

MR. EPSTEIN: We don't, and in fact I owe Darlene some suggestions as to possible witnesses, but I think originally when we discussed it, it was going to be the item we were doing either today or the previous session and it got bumped because of other things, on the view that - yes, CAP sites bumped it and so it was seen as not as urgent as the CAP sites. So it's still outstanding and I think it is in order of priority, the next one. Then we could certainly turn to the next three after that. But I owe Darlene my apologies for suggestions for witnesses, so I'll e-mail you about that.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: That would be fine. As I say, I think we just had lost that in the shuffle here, but if that, in fact, was on the list before, then we'll begin with that in January with your suggestions on witnesses.

MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you. The other one I wanted to add to the list from our Party would be the first one, that is access in and out of Nova Scotia, issues associated with that. Again, I'll e-mail you with more details as to what that would entail.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, very good. So we'll look at perhaps the electricity marketplace will be the first one in January. If we could, I'd like to have the retail gasoline dealers next in line because that will be topical, I think, around this review. Then we have RIM and the tourism access. So maybe we could leave Darlene to try to schedule those in and just see who's available on the meeting dates.

I know Darlene does like more information around perhaps any focus point of our discussions. Although as I said in the beginning, this committee tends to be somewhat informal in the sense that we're learning as we go, in terms of each industry that comes in.

Anyway, I think that should do it for now. Do we have a motion to adjourn?

MR. PORTER: I so move. (Interruptions)

MADAM CHAIRMAN: The next meeting, very good. (Interruption)

MR. EPSTEIN: . . . the first week in January, or the second one, the week of January 8^th, after the House starts?

MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): It would be either January 9^th - it would have to be a morning meeting, of course, because the House would be in session - or January 16^th. The Standing Committee on Resources is meeting on January 16^th.

MR. EPSTEIN: Also in the morning?

MRS. HENRY: Yes. Your choice right now is January 9^th or 16^th.

MR. EPSTEIN: I don't particularly care, it may depend on availability of witnesses.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Any preferences from committee members? (Interruptions)

MR. BAIN: Do we know the House hours?

MADAM CHAIRMAN: No, we don't have any idea, just that January 8^th . . .

MR. BAIN: But why don't we just temporarily set it for January 9^th and if the House hours are in the morning, well, we'll have to make some changes.

MADAM CHAIRMAN: It may conflict. Do you think that will work for you? Any comments, Darlene?

MRS. HENRY: I can work with the witnesses . . .

MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay. Darlene is going to work with the witnesses for the 9^th and see if they're available for that day. Thank you and we'll be in touch then.

[The committee adjourned at 10:55 a.m.]