HALIFAX, TUESDAY, JANUARY 13, 2004
STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Russell MacKinnon
MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, perhaps we will call the meeting to order. Today's witnesses are first a representative from the Emergency Measures Organization, Mr. Mike Lester, Executive Director. Thanks for appearing. Also, Mr. Bill Appleby, Regional Director for the Meteorological Service of Canada and Mr. Ken Kirkwood, Manager of Maritimes Weather Centre. Gentlemen, the usual protocol is some opening remarks, 15 to 20 minutes, and then we will open up the session for questions from individual members to yourselves. The floor is yours.
MR. MIKE LESTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am Mike Lester, Executive Director of Emergency Measures Nova Scotia. With your indulgence, I would like to open off our discussions this morning and then turn over the floor to my colleagues from Environment Canada to continue it on. I will keep within the time frame and keep it succinct. A technical issue here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps while you are getting set up, we will ask the individual members to introduce themselves, starting on my left with Mr. Parent.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lester.
MR. LESTER: Thank you. To give you an idea, Mr. Chairman, just the set-up of the Emergency Measures Organization, which is not very large, this is the organizational chart of the organization. Basically, the blocks on the right reflect the 911 system and the balance is really the emergency planning side of the organization. You will note that the Critical Infrastructure Planner position, it says on the bottom "in development", we hope to have that position filled by the end of this week.
1
We have four offices. The main headquarters office is located in Dartmouth. That is where the Joint Emergency Operations Centre is located with our colleagues from the federal government and the municipality. We have single-person field offices in Kentville, Truro and Sydney.
Over the past five years, we have seen some changes in Nova Scotia with respect to our natural disasters. Some significant dates in this process, I think the first thing that caught our attention was the 1998 ice storm. While we really were just on the tail end of that, we did get involved with assisting Quebec in that storm. We did have a considerable amount of damage in the Valley. I think what struck home to us at that point was the fact that we, too, would have been where Quebec was except that we were two degrees colder than Quebec and we got ice pellets instead of the freezing rain. It's not often that Nova Scotia is two degrees colder than Quebec during the winter. That brought on a number of processes into play among the New England States and the eastern provinces developing mutual aid agreements and what have you. So it was significant to us.
In September 1999, Cumberland County and Queens County had large concentrations of rain in a very short period of time. The flooding occurred at that time and there was $3.3 million in damage as a result of that particular storm. Following that, we had the Cape Breton Regional Municipality flood in November 2000 and then, of course, the Guysborough/Richmond tidal surge which was really a new experience for us that came in in that time frame as well. In March 2003, the province-wide flood, the April Fool's storm, we are looking right now at approximately $27 million and counting on that particular disaster financial assistance program. Of course, in September, Hurricane Juan and right now we are at about $47 million and counting. That, of course, does not reflect those costs incurred by the insurance companies either. Overall, for this period, we are in the area of $80 million of damages as a result of natural disasters in just that short period of time and again, those are provincial costs and not the insurance industry.
Before January 1998, the last storm really to cause severe damage was in the 1970s. I think we really had been lulled into a sense of security. We hadn't really seen much activity. So why the increased damage levels? Well, the direct hit from the hurricane aside, there are a number of factors which contribute to the situation; however, the bottom line being the water just doesn't run off. We are getting in such concentrations that what is there now is not capable of withstanding the increased concentration. I will go into that a little bit further.
We don't need to be convinced that our weather pattern is changing. There is some public debate on whether that is, in fact, happening but I will leave that discussion to my colleagues from Environment Canada. We are receiving higher concentrations of rain. It's coming down more quickly and the culverts which used to be able to do the job can't. Flood plains continue to be filled in, building on those flood plains, and flood plains have not been adequately defined and building permits continue to be issued in the hazard areas, which is helping to make the situation a little more challenging.
So this has not been a continual concern in the past and the public must accept that we are experiencing those weather changes in order to support any proactive - well not any but any major proactive - address to the situation. Sporadic efforts have taken place across the country over the years but there hasn't been a concerted effort by all three levels of government to develop an effective mitigation strategy and it really requires all of us playing together in order to make it happen.
Lest we forget, I mentioned the flooding and hurricane, we hang on the fringe frequently with forest fires and severe winter storms which could be equally as devastating as anything we've seen with the floods and the hurricane.
Emergency management in this province is just a thumbnail sketch. The Nova Scotia Emergency Management System uses the "all hazards" approach, whether it's a natural disaster, whether it happens to be a man-made one. Basically, it's the same people responding to do the job. We are so small that that's what we do. I think that is really an asset to us, the fact that we know each other, and we know each other well as a result of what has been going on lately.
The roles of the three levels of government are understood and joint training is undertaken and goes on continually. Thanks to recent events, we are well practised here. The one-window concept is utilized to request or support another layer of government. If we require federal resources, we go through my federal counterpart in what is now Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada; that used to be OCIPEP, emergency preparedness Canada, for those of you who may think back a little further. We've tried this system on the three major events that we've had since 1998, the plane crash, the hurricane and 9/11, and that process works very well.
[9:15 a.m.]
In the overall concept of things, in Canada we believe that the most effective process to approach or to address major emergencies is to keep the control of the emergency at the lowest possible level of government. That is in contrast to what the Americans do, for instance. When you think about it, the municipalities have all the first response agencies - or the vast majority of them - the police, the fire, the ambulance and the public works and what have you. So it just makes good sense that they be at the front lines, not left alone mind you but they are the ones that know their community, know where the assets are and where the challenges may be.
All municipalities are required by our Act to have an Emergency Measures Organization, an EMO coordinator, an emergency plan, an emergency bylaw and an emergency measures committee of council. The federal emergency preparedness structure is under major review now, as I just indicated with the name change. Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness is now under the Solicitor General of Canada, and they're still
going through the process of the lines of communication and who's doing what. The provincial department plans are continuing under review, with most of them completed. I would say pretty well all of them are at the draft stage, that aren't now completed.
The last evaluation of the individual emergency preparedness in 2002 showed that 82 per cent of the municipalities in this province were graded excellent to fair, which is a pretty significant number. Since that time, that number has improved. I can't give you the exact figure, a guesstimate would probably be in the mid-90s.
Emergency management in this province, the all-hazards approach, we train the people from all levels of government and those in the private sector that work with us - I think of Aliant, for instance, NSPI, Maritimes & Northeast, et cetera - so that we're all talking the same language and are prepared to do business together. We also ask them to think outside of the box. Well, that's a common term, I guess, these days and probably overworked. We just don't focus on the services that we provide every day, but what we could do in an emergency. Our favourite example is the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation. Obviously there may be some different perspectives on this, but their well-developed transportation system and secure cold storage is an example of that approach. When I think in terms of the influenza pandemic and perhaps the storage of medicines and what have you across the province, that would be an example.
So while it's not perfect, the response to major emergencies is a well-developed and dynamic system which is constantly improving. However, at present the greatest void by far in the world of natural disasters is that of mitigation. It remains to be seen how many times we must be victimized before a national strategy is established to lessen the impact of recurring major natural disasters.
Mr. Chairman, that is really the substance of my remarks. Is it your wish now that I turn the chair to my colleagues on the right?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We might as well, unless individual members would like to interject at this point.
MR. KEN KIRKWOOD: I would just take a second, to end Mike's presentation, to hand these out. (Interruptions)
MR. BILL APPLEBY: We're just going to give you an overview of some of the disasters that could happen and do happen here, in addition to some of the recent ones that we've experienced and a little background on our role in terms of alerting the public and some of the work that we're doing, ongoing, in the next steps of Juan. Ken.
MR. KIRKWOOD: I'm Ken Kirkwood, and I'm the Manager of the Maritimes Weather Centre, located in Queen's Square in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. It's also the co-location centre of the Canadian Hurricane Centre as well. I actually manage both centres. Bill is our Regional Director of the Meteorological Service of Canada, a branch of Environment Canada. Of course our primary objective is to provide timely and accurate weather forecasts for Canadians, including warnings as well.
Risk of a natural disaster can be defined as a risk of a natural hazard times the vulnerability of the public or company or whatever aspect of human living you're looking at. There's nothing that we can do about a naturally occurring disaster. Hurricanes are going to continue to happen, snowstorms are going to continue to happen, floods are going to continue to happen, there's not much we can do about that. So our objective at the Meteorological Service of Canada is to reduce the vulnerability of the public to weather hazards through timely and accurate warnings, forecasts and information. We do that through a variety of systems.
However, vulnerability is not if, it's a matter of when it's going to happen. I think we've all seen that, recently, of course, with Hurricane Juan back in September of last year. I know Mike had shown a slide as well with a couple of recent - what we consider - high-impact weather or natural disasters. Wind and storm surges as well are two types of hazards that are increasingly becoming major concerns.
The Groundhog Day storm, back in February 1976, inflicted a fair amount of damage across the whole region, including, particularly, southwestern Nova Scotia and up through mainland Nova Scotia as it travelled eastwards. Also included with that storm, even though it was a major windstorm, was a significant storm surge along the coast of Nova Scotia as well, which inflicted a lot of damage along the infrastructure of Nova Scotia. So storm surges as well, as I mentioned, have been a problem. That was in February 1976, the Groundhog Day storm, which was primarily a windstorm, but also in January and October 2000, there were two instances of storm surges particularly affecting the northeastern portions of the province. It was a northeasterly gale which primarily affected Prince Edward Island and the northeast coast of Nova Scotia.
Mike also pointed out the flooding from the rainstorm of March 2003, last year. Severe thunderstorms and tornadoes, as well. Eastern Canadians quite often don't think of tornadoes as being a significant threat to this area of the country, and typically they are not, they tend to occur more in the inland areas of New Brunswick but Nova Scotia has seen their share. Tatamagouche in 2002, there was a very small-scale system that did a significant amount of damage in that area.
Snowfalls - just our typical winter storms. The problem with our winter storms, such as snowfalls, is they are quite often accompanied with high winds as well. The snowstorm of February 1992 was a significant snowfall amount of around 100 centimetres of snow here
in the Halifax area, and places farther north, in around the Moncton, Amherst areas, received as much as 160 centimetres - not all in one day but over a period of two to three days. Of course freezing rain is a frequent occurrence, freezing drizzle as well, which is smaller precipitation particles than rain. Freezing rain, freezing drizzle can contribute a significant amount of hazard to the public and to property, particularly trees, power lines and telephone poles.
Our main concern is how we get the information out to the public. The Meteorological Service of Canada - in each region it's different depending on the vulnerability for their particular public but it's pretty well standard for most of the major systems - has a set criteria for when to issue warnings for such things as wind, storm surges, precipitation amounts, temperature, cold snaps, heat and air quality - we also do air quality as well.
Our warnings are distributed automatically. When we release them from the centre, they are automatically distributed through a telecommunications system. EMO, for the Province of Nova Scotia gets those warnings automatically, and they get all our special weather statements as well, which are not actual warnings but statements we can issue to advise the public of weather situations that may occur a day or two down the road, outside our criteria, when we have to issue the warning. They are also distributed to the media, either directly or through media telecommunication systems, they are posted on our Web sites and to other people who will grab our Web sites, such as the Weather Network, and post those as well.
We have a 24-hour continuous broadcast of Weatheradio, it's basically a radio station that broadcasts 24 hours a day, continuous weather warnings and forecasts and weather information as well. ATADs are our automatic telephone answering devices, many of you might be aware we have an extensive network across the province where people can call a local number and get a pre-recorded message of our forecast and warnings, and we also distribute it by e-mail as well.
Particularly responding to Emergency Measures Organizations in the province, the Weather Centre will quite often be in direct contact with the Emergency Measures office as well. We have a number where we can reach them and it's a very good working relationship in that they are very quick to return calls. If we feel that it's a weather situation that might impose problems because of the time of the year, because we had a recent cold snap and the ground is frozen and it's going to be a rapid warming trend and we're going to receive a significant amount of rain, that imposes problems and we realize that and try to expand upon any weather warnings that we can, particularly to the Emergency Measures Organization.
I must stress not all warnings equal a natural disaster. We have to advise the public of weather situations that are going to impose some concern for travel safety and property as well. The big issue is it is an awareness issue. Nova Scotians are very aware of weather,
we're very resilient to weather, we see a wide variety of weather in very short periods of time quite frequently, but it's the continuous effort to make the public and clients, as well as specialized clients such as the Emergency Measures Organization, aware of issues around warnings and significant weather, high-impact weather.
I'm not going to go through this slide completely, it's just a list of some of our warning criteria that we would issue a weather warning for. The first one on the list is we would issue a wind warning if our sustained winds were going to be continuously at 65 kilometres per hour, if we were going to expect gusts to 90 kilometres per hour, we would issue a wind warning.
Some warnings will change through the seasons. Fifty millimeters of rain in the summer is our standard over a period of 24 hours. If we receive 50 millimeters of rain in 24 hours then we would issue a weather warning. In the winter, we tend to reduce that amount to 25 millimeters because quite often the problem in the winter is the ground is frozen and the water doesn't have anywhere to go. If there is no snow on the ground that is even more of a problem because it doesn't get absorbed by the ground or by the snow, so we tend to reduce that warning criteria through the winter months.
As you see farther down there are summer storms as well, we're talking severe thunderstorms where we would issue a warning if we expect a thunderstorm to produce gusting winds, hail, or rainfall amounts. Again, the problem with things such as summer storms, they are very small, they affect a very small area of real estate, unlike a storm such as Hurricane Juan which affected a large portion of the province as it moved through, or the Groundhog Day storm back in 1976. We have other criteria as well for wind chill, blizzards, and heat warnings, as well.
[9:30 a.m.]
Certainly, Hurricane Juan brings to light some of the lessons we have learned and I think it probably caused a lot of people to learn a few lessons as well. We have contingency plans in place for the Maritimes Weather Centre and I'm a firm believer that contingency plans are living, breathing documents - you have them, you review them, you test them, hopefully you never have to use them but when you do you certainly learn from your mistakes or what has to be improved or changed to make them more effective.
Some of the lessons we have learned from Juan particularly was that a closer co-operation with first responders needs to be maintained. We currently have a very good working relationship with the provincial EMO. One thing we would like to work on is joint messaging regarding warnings and preparedness of EMO. This is a process that we use with the provincial Department of Health at the present time with regard to air quality messaging. We have worked with all four Atlantic Provinces and they have the expertise on the impacts of poor quality air on the public but we have the expertise on meteorological conditions that
cause those situations. Quite often when we issue a warning - and this is the issue we would like to make sure we maintain and improve upon with EMOs - we have the expertise in the meteorological aspects of weather warnings but we're not the expertise on what people should do in response to that.
We also have a very active role with the media when we issue a weather warning. The media is on our doorstep continuously when we have a warning out, particularly for an event such as Juan. There is a tremendous amount of media contact and it would be nice to be able to provide the meteorological warnings, along with some preparedness messages as well.
Broadened communication of other first responders as well, we would like to have a little bit more contact with agencies such as local fire departments and the 911 people as well. We probably could provide some information to them that might be of use and we have had some contact with them.
Cross-training of EMO and MSC staff. It's a good relationship that we be able to provide this to the Emergency Measures Organizations - we have in the past and we are planning to do another cycle through this training again in the near future - to allow EMO staff to be aware of warning criteria, weather practices and how we forecast the weather, to give them a basic background of what our issues are that we're dealing with when we're trying to forecast the weather. It is a two-way street, it would be good for the Meteorological Service of Canada staff with the weather office staff to be aware of what the emergency preparedness people have to deal with as well, when we issue a warning. They probably have some expertise on local problems as well. We are continuously ongoing in our review of warning types and nomenclature, what type of warning we issue, sometimes they will change, the public changes, the population continues to grow. We will continue to update our warning types and nomenclature.
There is a need for critical decision-making systems in response to national disasters and this is something that is relatively new, it's an aspect of our research branch in the Meteorological Service of Canada, it's not something that's directly related to my office or the operational, Research Alliance of Disaster Resilient Cities. I must be honest, this is something that is new, we would like to be able to provide input into that and Juan would be a good example to use for some research development. There is a need to improve public and media awareness, that is an ongoing, continuous issue and problem that we have to deal with, making sure the public understands what our warnings mean. The media is usually quite good at distributing our warnings or coming to us for explanations of our warnings but it's also a continuous issue with the public to keep them up to date, keep them informed, and keep them alert to when we issue warnings, what it actually means. That's all I have.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will start off our first round of questions with the member for Kings North.
MR. MARK PARENT: Thank you very much for your presentation, particularly Mr. Lester for the emphasis you've placed upon cost to society of these climate changes. I think that my colleague opposite will, I'm sure, echo this but I think that sometimes we ignore, in our discussions on greenhouse gas emissions or anything like that, that there is a cost. It's not borne, particularly, by the people who are reaping the financial benefit but it's borne by other people. We need to look at the wider picture, and I think that's what you're encouraging us to do.
It's also good to meet you after we've talked so long as a result of the Kentville floods. I want to thank you for being very gracious to me. You never once lost your composure when I was phoning and writing letters, and I appreciate that. I know there may have been times I tried your patience, and I do thank you for what you were able to do in Kentville. However, I do have a few questions that arise out of the March flooding. I'm not terribly sure where the responsibility lies, it may lie on the federal side of the equation.
We had some problems in terms of clarity, what would be covered in regard to flood claims. It took a while for that to work its way out. That lack of clarity at the start, I think, caused some confusion and a lot of anxiety in terms of some of the homeowners. It may have been the result of local media. But I would stress that there needs to be greater clarity in terms of what can be claimed and what can't be claimed, and then in terms of timing, too. Some of the claimants were responded to fairly quickly but others, particularly those who have made appeals, are still - I have a few - outstanding. I know it's difficult, because what happened in Kentville was that people had to go out and get estimates from carpenters, from plumbers, et cetera, and they were all busy. It was very hard to get the estimates in, to get the estimates to you, et cetera.
I know there are many reasons for it, but I guess I have a concern about clarity, in my particular situation, of what could be claimed, and also if there's any way to improve the timing and the communication, particularly since the federal government, I understood, had the final say in whether anything was improved. It had to go through your committee or the committee that Bruce Langille was chairing, and then on to the federal counterpart and then back. The timing is difficult for people because they need to know, can they go out and can they go into debt to fix this up or are they going to have to assume the debt themselves.
So those are some of the questions. I don't want that to be overshadowed by the fact that I do appreciate the enormous amount of effort that was put into my community and I want to thank you for that, but I do have concerns on those two issues. I'm just wondering if you could speak to the issue of greater clarity and perhaps the timing issue which is perhaps my most important concern.
MR. LESTER: I share your concerns about the clarity. We're not alone in that consideration. The Emergency Measures directors from across Canada are collectively developing a position to go forward to the federal government with the Disaster Financial
Assistance Arrangements. They are inadequate in our view. They do not get to the meat of the matter, as you pointed out, the definition of what is eligible and what is not. There are just too many caveats that come into play. It's frustrating to the victims and it's frustrating for us, trying to deal within that system. We have to meet the criteria of the federal Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangements in order for the province to be compensated, and if we do not follow the guidelines exactly then we're out of luck.
With respect to the timing, we recognize with the flood on March 31st that our previously convenient arrangements, so that everybody got their time in court, were not adequate with the volume of applications that came in. The first storm, when we were dealing with the Cumberland/Queens floods from 1999 and the Cape Breton floods, we're talking about $3.3 million for Cumberland/Queens and then $2.1 million for Cape Breton. Well, there's a significant difference to put that up to $27 million with the March floods.
So we have changed the process, and we did that with Hurricane Juan, to eliminate some of the snags. It seems like when you get one done, then another presents itself. With the floods in Cumberland and Cape Breton, we didn't have the large farm issues that we encountered in March. The application of the Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangements to farmers, that program was designed in 1986 and perhaps at that time it met the requirements of the situation but it certainly does not now - it nowhere near meets that.
We are trying to expedite the process as quickly as we can. In fairness to my federal colleagues locally, we're getting good support from them as well, from Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.
MR. PARENT: Just a quick follow-up.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If we could, because it's seven minutes into your questioning now, and I sense a lot of members want to ask questions, we will come back, if that's fair.
The member for Pictou West.
MR. CHARLES PARKER: Mr. Chairman, we have seven or eight minutes apiece, is that what you're saying?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will try to lock it in around seven, and then we will come back again.
MR. PARKER: I want to ask Mr. Lester a few questions around emergency preparedness for the next storm. Certainly over the last five years, we've had an increasing history of more and more disasters, unfortunately, occurring with more frequency. There's no question Hurricane Juan was probably the worst hurricane this province has ever seen, certainly in the memory of living people. If it had occurred this month, in January, it would
have been far, far worse, no question. Thank God it didn't. I want to come around to your question of preparedness for the next time. Sure enough the next time is coming, and let's hope it doesn't occur at this time of year.
In particular, in relation to maybe the most vulnerable people out there, seniors and disabled, many, in September, spent days without power. I come from Pictou County, and we were hard enough hit by Hurricane Juan in that area of the province. I'm hearing from our senior coordinator in Pictou County, she tells me there are lots of seniors out there, a lot of disabled people who did spend a lot of days, lonely days, anxious days, wondering when their power was going to come back on. Some were on upper floors, in buildings with elevators, who couldn't get down to the ground level.
I know in rural areas, out in the country, there were people who were not contacted, people who live alone, who weren't checked on. There are other cases that I've heard of, people, seniors in particular, who needed medicines. I know one lady, she was on oxygen and she spent two days without oxygen, and finally her daughter was able to get her to somewhere where there was power, and she was able to get the oxygen she needed.
So there were problems, certainly, in September. And like I said, thank God this didn't occur in January. In our society, I just don't think it's acceptable for seniors to be in that type of vulnerable position, where they're left alone or are not being checked on. So I guess my question then is how prepared are we now for the next storm that's coming, for the next natural disaster? Are we prepared to handle it, especially for the most vulnerable in our society?
[9:45 a.m.]
MR. LESTER: Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree with the member's comments, that there were a number of those issues with the seniors in particular. I guess really to put in a capsule what Emergency Measures Organizations do, they remove people from harm's way and then they look after them, in general terms. What we do have is a sharing of that responsibility at the three levels of government. When it comes to dealing with specific issues in specific communities, it would be a municipal EMO target. They would have to identify where the problem areas are, because normally we would not hear of them.
In so saying, that doesn't mean that we wouldn't be working with them to address such issues. One of the things that is being done is that the municipalities, the municipal EMOs, have been asked to identify relocation centres in their areas, in their municipalities, where people can go and they will have food and shelter and be able to be looked after, at least in the short term, until such time as something of a longer duration can be determined.
This comes into cost sharing of generators, auxiliary generators - for instance, I would use an example of perhaps a fire hall that the municipality might want to designate as their relocation centre, that the wiring and/or the purchase of a generator might be shared, about 50 per cent, out of the Joint Emergency Preparedness Program.
There are any number of issues that - you're quite correct - came out of the hurricane that are being addressed. It's a little early in the process yet, they're not all under wraps. One of them is the provision of oxygen to homes for people who require it. That was identified early in the process by our Emergency Health Services, and the issue is ongoing with that. The next time around, we will ensure that is not going to be a challenge.
MR. PARKER: If I could follow up with another related question, in particular in seniors' units, large residences, where there are 50 or 100 seniors in a unit, when the power goes off, there is certainly a need for backup generators. I know in discussing with the Housing Authority in our county, they would like to have more generators but it's a cost factor, they just can't afford it at this time. They're going to work gradually towards ramping up with more and more generators. Things like emergency lighting in the hallways or somewhere where there's a source of heat, where all the seniors could come together in one spot and at least be warm - I'm thinking of this time of year in particular - even an emergency telephone would be beneficial in some of those units, so they could at least call for help. Some of them are quite seriously disabled, and that would be of great benefit.
Really what is needed is just some type of overall plan that's going to deal with the most vulnerable out there, including a checklist of the people who are perhaps most in need. Do we know who those people are ahead of time, those who are maybe alone and if they're without power, without heat, is there some means or method by which they can be checked up on to make sure they're going to be protected?
MR. LESTER: Every licensed facility in this province is required to have an emergency plan to deal with the issues of which you speak. I have not been privy to seeing all of them, but I'm not the licensing authority. However, I do see some of the activity that goes on with them. Certainly each individual facility that is licensed should have their emergency plans in place to deal with such things as when the power goes out, emergency communications and where people would be relocated in the event that they had to leave, whether it was a power outage or the place was burning down.
MR. PARKER: Is there a list of the people who may live alone out in rural areas that could be checked up on?
MR. LESTER: I think that would be something that would have to be developed within the municipality, perhaps in conjunction with the fire departments. The magnitude of that is considerable. We promote the buddy system, looking after your neighbour. We heard a good number of positive stories following that hurricane, what neighbours had done for
neighbours. I think we need to extend that. If there's a senior in your family who is living alone, then you check on them, or your next-door neighbour.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank our guests for coming in this morning. Especially over the last several discussions with the EMO agency, I always appreciated the promptness of their replies. Having said that, I think no matter how good a response we have, we can always learn from our experiences. Relative to Hurricane Juan, I understand there are at least some 87 applications in from the farming community for assistance. There are 644 applications in from the woodlot owners in the Province of Nova Scotia. I understand from the most recent information I have that only two claims have actually been paid, only two cheques have actually been cut.
I realize there's a lot of - for lack of a better word - rigamarole that has to transpire before cheques are cut, but we did make a commitment and the appropriate people said that we're going to move as expeditiously as we possibly can, relative to these claims. I guess my question would be, when can the farming community expect to see some more cheques cut, as well, for the woodlot owners in the Province of Nova Scotia?
MR. LESTER: For the fisheries the Enhanced Disaster Financial Assistance Program was fairly straightforward. It was about $1 million out, $972,000. With the farming community, all applications have been received and initially dealt with, but then the paperwork begins. Is this eligible for disaster financial assistance, and then of course we have to meet the federal criteria. Well, is 51 per cent of the income of the farmer, is livelihood gained from the farming, and then he has to prove it and produce the paperwork in order to make that happen. There are leased lands that the federal program will not cover, if I'm the farmer and I have leased lands from my neighbour next door - much in Nova Scotia is done on the basis of a handshake - I can cover off the land that I have that's been damaged and make application for it, but I can't do anything with my neighbour's land that's leased.
As I said before, this program, DFAA has not been adequate to our needs. Generally, we're into the challenges of meeting up with the paperwork coming back from those who have applied. I can follow this up, Mr. Chairman, with more specifics. I do not have them at my disposal right at the moment, but if you would like I would make the commitment that by the end of the week I will provide you with better detail on the farming community, or whatever you wish.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I certainly would appreciate that. I have some information myself. I know relative to the flood in the Spring that the adjudication period for the applications was extremely protracted and the DFAA was, by most people's admission, outdated and convoluted, and that is still the case. We certainly do need a national strategy.
Regarding the hurricane, my understanding was certain components of the Hurricane Juan disaster relief assistance were established provincially, solely provincially. Generally you will find that in the agriculture community when a building, for example, was demolished or desecrated, it is normally on the farmer's land, however, the agriculture fields are a different story. I'm just hoping and praying that we're going to try to focus on that industry, it's very important. I appreciate what was done with the fishing industry but a lot of the same people, as you know, who were impacted by the flood, were impacted by the hurricane, not to mention mad cow disease. I think that we have to really try to focus on that and possibly EMO has looked at partnering a bit with the Farm Loan Board. The reason I say that is the Farm Loan Board, 99 per cent of the time, will have the personal information, the financial information, that the agency is required to be privy to. I was just wondering if it would streamline things a bit if the farmers would agree to share that information and possibly assist the agency in adjudicating these claims, because we have to be careful.
I know it's a very difficult job but the fact is, a considerable amount of time has elapsed since the hurricane and people are up against it, they are borrowing money, they've used up a lot of their collateral regarding other disasters and I would implore our guests to do everything they can to advance these claims; it is really important to the agricultural community.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Halifax Chebucto.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Lester, this isn't the first time we've spoken in public since Hurricane Juan. I wanted to take this opportunity again to thank you and the members of your organization for the work that was done around the time of Hurricane Juan, I think you really did a terrific job. To our guests from the federal government, from Environment Canada, Mr. Appleby and Mr. Kirkwood, thank you very much for coming to help us out today in some understanding of what it is that goes on. I think your agency, as well, does very good work on an ongoing basis, warning people about severe weather events.
I wonder if we could deal with a couple of matters that have to do with the preparedness for next time. I know that there have been a couple of formal reviews that have either been finished or are being done about Hurricane Juan and one was an internal Nova Scotia Government report that was done in November, very soon after Juan, a report on the emergency response to Hurricane Juan. I know, Mr. Lester, that EMO was heavily involved in that and I have a question for you about that, but what I wondered about was the other review going on which is, the Utility and Review Board was asked to look particularly at Nova Scotia Power. I'm wondering if EMO is involved in that at all, that is, are you a participant in that review that is going on by the Utility and Review Board?
MR. LESTER: We have had some preliminary discussions on that and we would like to further that. It has been a matter with us of trying to concentrate on the disaster financial assistance more than anything else in the short term.
MR. EPSTEIN: That was an interesting point in itself, are you telling me that EMO itself is processing those damage claims? Your staff is processing those damage claims?
MR. LESTER: Oh yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: Are you equipped to do that? I thought part of your job was sort of emergency planning and then actually dealing with the emergencies themselves. I would have thought the financial side of it was a separate administrative function that could have been done out of Finance.
MR. LESTER: We still are responsible for the Disaster Financial Assistance and our staff are supplemented with a number of insurance adjusters in the process, and also the province's risk manager from Transportation and Public Works.
MR. EPSTEIN: So you've been given extra staff to help you process these claims?
MR. LESTER: Yes, that's correct.
MR. EPSTEIN: So it's not drawing down on what would otherwise be your core function . . .
MR. LESTER: Well it draws down but it's not as bad as what it could have been.
MR. EPSTEIN: So that's a point in itself. So you've been busy with that, but what role are you going to take with the Utility and Review Board?
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. LESTER: The issues that we have that came forward to us from the hurricane with Nova Scotia Power, I think, are issues that we can deal with one-on-one and get done anyway. We have all seen what those issues are, communication to the public, management of their expectations of when they can expect their power back and the guidance through the media. Our other issue with that was our interface with Nova Scotia Power through 911, when the hurricane hit and everybody was calling in about the loose wires, that jammed our 911 system.
MR. EPSTEIN: Electricity really was the big issue after Hurricane Juan. Do you have any idea how long the Utility and Review Board will be going about its business?
MR. LESTER: No, I'm sorry, I don't.
MR. EPSTEIN: Fair enough. Are there any other reviews that are going on? These are the two really that I was aware of, the internal one the province did very quickly in the Fall and the Utility and Review Board. Is there another one going on? I didn't think there was but . . .
MR. LESTER: Not to my knowledge, sir.
MR. EPSTEIN: That's fine, so it's a question of learning ongoing lessons. Let's look at the November report that was done internally by the government. One of the items that was listed in terms of further steps was to "Identify, list, and continuously update contact and resource/asset lists for deployment in an emergency.", and it goes on to specify the kinds of things that are thought of here, like generators and emergency vehicles. I'm interested in the equipment inventory and to what extent you actually had information about resource equipment in the province before Juan, and to what extent you might need resources in order to generate a good equipment inventory. I include things like snowplows, electrical wire, blankets, tents and so on. Do we know where these things are?
MR. LESTER: Again, this is more than a single-pronged attack on this issue. All levels of government, I guess, become involved in this consideration and the municipalities were encouraging them to activate a process to identify what they had. With us, we have a supply of generators, provincially, some big ones like the one taken from Westray, it was maintained and kept in abeyance in the event we need it, and there are others. We have entered into a mutual aid agreement, what's known as the International Emergency Management Assistance Compact with the New England states and the eastern provinces. We are in the process now of completing the inventories of such things as generators and what else we may be able to share with each other.
MR. EPSTEIN: But inside the province does EMO know how many generators there are or what's available?
MR. LESTER: Owned provincially but not municipally.
MR. EPSTEIN: When you say provincially you would include, say, hospitals in that?
MR. LESTER: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: So all provincial agencies, you would have a record of what's out there.
MR. LESTER: We spread this around, of course, but the Department of Health would have the information respecting hospitals. Then there would be the other agencies who are involved, as well, like Transportation and Public Works, et cetera. We are expanding the generator thing, you probably have seen it in the media with respect to the new schools being
constructed. The offer is there from the Department of Education to include generators in the new schools on a cost-shared basis, to be used as relocation centres for such things as seniors and what have you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Eastern Shore. I must compliment the member for Halifax Chebucto, he got more questions in in his time frame than all the rest put together.
MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: Good morning, gentlemen, thank you for your presentation. I would like to thank you for the support you are showing to the province, especially to the Eastern Shore, during the hurricane season. I would like to echo the comment that it is very fortunate that that didn't happen in the winter. I can assure you that had it happened in winter, we would have had more loss of life. In saying that, it brings me back to the point of public awareness, it was a lesson well learned.
I remember being home and it finally came on the weather report of a severe weather condition, a weather warning of the hurricane and being very alert to that. I didn't prepare too much but I went out and locked the woodshed door, put a few things from the patio away because I wasn't familiar with that type of situation. What concerned me was, I did, later on in the night, take a drive out around and I understand that is not the appropriate thing to do, but I had a few concerns.
I did meet with some first responders, the RCMP, they were out at that particular time visiting homes where people lived who were close to the water. They were concerned about their safety.
We talk about evacuation. They went to a certain home, and one particular person wouldn't move, wouldn't leave their home because they didn't want to leave their property unattended. What authority would a first responder, the fire chief/RCMP officer, have to actually remove somebody who is in harm's way because of severe weather conditions? In saying that, if they do not have the authority, here we're allowing a first responder to go out to that person's home without being successful. There are two questions there. Does the fire chief or a designated person within a community have the authority to evacuate someone in harm's way of severe weather conditions?
MR. LESTER: The only authority outside the Emergency Measures Act, the declaration of a state of local emergency or a provincial one, the only circumstance that I can think of would be the fire chief in case of fire. If it happened to be the flooding as you suggest or perhaps an ammonia leak somewhere where fire was not the primary concern, then it would have to be the Act.
It was mentioned in that debriefing that the declaration made by the Halifax Regional Municipality probably should have been earlier. In hindsight I would say yes, because there is no authority to move somebody out who doesn't want to go. It's typical of seniors, they don't want to leave their homes. As you quite properly pointed out, by not having the authority, the first responder is then putting himself or herself in jeopardy.
MR. DOOKS: Because they return and check on that person because of their responsibility.
MR. LESTER: And then they take away the time that could be spent on somebody else. It's a judgment call. The other side of that coin is a declaration of a state of emergency, where you can tear down doors and enter property without warrants. It's a judgment call.
MR. DOOKS: In saying that, I think that as a province, as a municipality we should take more responsibility in educating people in the appropriate manner of behaviour in a warning situation. In saying that, education is always important. I was faced with issues, through the hurricane, where do we go to get fresh water, where do we go to get supplies? Being in the rural area, outside of the urban core, the first number of days we had a struggle. There's no doubt. I congratulate the first responders, neighbour helping neighbour, and we did get through, there's no doubt about that.
In saying that, it's important to identify or designate a comfort station in a number of communities within a riding, because we cannot just put one comfort station in one riding because, geographically, the ridings are so very large, that it's hard for people to transport back and forth. So we should designate particular designations, and in saying that, we should allocate certain emergency funding for those designated areas. What I was faced with, soup kitchens and so on and so forth, we had to actually go around and collect money for the ladies auxiliary, the community centre to buy the foods that were necessary to feed the people in those comfort stations.
As time went on, of course, outside help did start to come in from Red Cross and from the municipality and from the province - later on. But indeed, very hard times, tough times, there's no doubt about it. Education is important to inform the people in what manner they should appropriately act in a disaster. I guess you're going to hear that from time to time, but I do believe that things will change and become more comfortable for people.
In saying that, my next comment, disaster of our forest and our woodlands - living on the Eastern Shore, with many forested areas, I'm still seeing thousands and thousands of board feet of lumber or cordwood slashed, laying down crosswise, and we know that the province has put out assistance for a certain acreage, but still many people do not have that acreage, many people did not apply for it. We're going to have a forest fire hazard within a couple of years, there's no doubt. We have large subdivisions, mangled forests lying beside them. If that should catch, it's going to catch the houses. We're going to have a situation that
we should start preparing for now. I don't think any amount of money that the provincial or federal government can put forward is going to clean up all the wood that's down in a certain time period. I believe there should be more financial assistance for private woodlot owners to help clean up this debris that's lying there, there's a lot of fibre lying there.
General comments, Nova Scotia Power - there were some tremendous concerns about Nova Scotia Power throughout the hurricane. In the area I represent, it was up to 11 days. It concerned me, 11 days is a long time. They had outside crews in there, no doubt. My concern is, were we hooked up last because we were further from the core? That's the question. When a hurricane arrives and devastation hits your community, it doesn't much matter where you live, you still have to survive, you still need water, food, heat and lights. I understand that the core is very important, to have the services moving quickly because of the service it provides, but on the other hand, it's important for us to give service to all people in the area. The Armed Forces, for instance, they arrived and helped clean up some debris, but they fell short, they didn't go through the whole hurricane area, only some areas.
These are some of the things that people see, some of the things that frustrate people. By and large, as a community, we did make it through. It was a lesson well learned. There was some devastation that will never be repaired, and some loss of life that will never be replaced. As a province and as a community we weathered through it, so to speak. I do thank you. I know you're on this issue. I know it takes this type of lesson, if you will, to prepare us for the next one. The next one will come. I hope that we're somewhat better prepared. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.
[10:15 a.m. Mr. Brooke Taylor took the Chair.]
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Good morning. I'm glad you're here this morning. Mr. Lester, I suppose you will be glad when Hurricane Juan blows by. (Laughter) I've been to two or three meetings with you. You seem to be getting a lot of the same questions. Anyway, I heard you say - you had a figure there - $47 million, the cost of Hurricane Juan. Can this committee get a breakdown of that? I know you mentioned one figure to the fishermen, some $900,000. The figure I heard there was some $400,000 to the fishermen. I would like to see this committee have a breakdown of that. You seem to have the full figure there of $47 million, so a breakdown would be appreciated, for myself anyway.
Also, I heard on the news this morning, and saw in the paper, over $2 million to clean up Point Pleasant Park. Mr. Dooks just mentioned the cost of cleaning up the forest. Where I'm from, we have the private sector going to the landowners and paying the landowners to go in and clean this wood up. It's a great resource. I don't understand why it's costing - is it two-thirds or three-quarters of Point Pleasant Park that needs to be cleaned up? There's a lot of resource there, there's a lot of hardwood, there's a lot of softwood that's good lumber yet,
good firewood. I don't understand why the private sector isn't bidding to go in there and why the government is trying to put out contracts to have it cleaned up. I can't understand that. Would you fill me in, and this committee, and explain why they're paying somebody $2 million to clean up that resource that's probably worth more than that?
MR. LESTER: Mr. Chairman, I have not been party to the discussions on behalf of HRM with the contractors. It does come to mind that we do have a problem with the infestation of the park, that bug that we have there, the beetle.
MR. THERIAULT: We have that too, where I'm from.
MR. LESTER: The other consideration that might be applicable is that under Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangements, contracted services by the municipality are 100 per cent covered by the federal government program. If they were to do it themselves, only overtime would be part of it. As I say, I have not been party to their discussions, but I imagine there are some complications attached and those may be applicable.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. David Wilson.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I appreciate you guys coming in and making your presentation. I understand the important role that EMO and Environment Canada play in protecting the people of the province. Coming from an emergency health care profession prior to being elected, I understand the need for disaster plans and I understand the need to always review them and change them, as Mr. Kirkwood made mention, it's a living document. I understand and have participated many times over the years in disaster plans and practising.
My question is to Mr. Kirkwood, and it has to do with the current condition of our health care system, especially in our emergency rooms and our hospitals throughout the province. I understand that each health region has a disaster plan. I'm just wondering, is there going to be a review of the health care regions' disaster plans, especially in light of the condition of our ERs and our hospitals and their ability to be able to accept an increase in patients in case there is a disaster with injuries?
MR. KIRKWOOD: I think you meant that for Mr. Lester.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Oh sorry, yes, I did mean that for Mr. Lester.
MR. LESTER: The Department of Health has been quite active with the emergency plans and exercising, and going into the regions, and have extended the process to the New England states and eastern provinces in the development of hospital expansion in the event of major events. In fact, it is the primary target right at the moment, for the mutual aid group
to be dealing with, just that. There's been a considerable amount of activity with the Department of Health. It was just a short time ago that they completed another exercise. They are very active, and at least my comfort level is certainly up there as a result of what they're doing.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): So you feel comfortable presently with the plans that we have in place, that if there was another disaster tomorrow, God forbid, that our emergency rooms and our hospitals in the province would be able to facilitate the increase, potentially, for victims or patients?
MR. LESTER: I heard the magic term, emergency rooms. I think I will let the experts deal with that issue, how we're going to be doing with that. Perfection is not a word that you associate with emergency plans. It's a guideline that gets you started. Some have said that emergency plans are really only good for about the first 15 minutes, in order to get everybody up and running and get them in place for what they're supposed to be doing. After that it becomes having the people in place who can make the decisions and activate the resources.
The health plan, as it stands now, is dynamic, it's ongoing, it's trying to address the issue of the influenza pandemic. This is all tied together with the terrorism issue of the CBRN, chemical, biological, nuclear process, in the event of a terrorist act. So things are all coming together, and again it is dynamic.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I would have to say that I feel a bit concerned because it's not just an emergency room problem. If you look at the QE II, they're running at near capacity levels. I'm sure it's like that throughout the province. I hope that's a top priority for you, to maintain a review of that. The other thing that is important during disasters is communication, and not just at the top level of officials. I've heard some concerns over the last couple of months from colleagues of mine who work in the emergency field about the importance of the front-line providers having communications between each other.
I'm just wondering, are you looking at reviewing or improving the communication system, especially the link between the emergency services, i.e. the fire department, on their trucks, the patrolmen or the sergeants or the constables in the RCMP, the paramedics? I find that seems to be where there are some problems during disasters, they can't link up with each other. They're the first ones who come upon a disaster or an event, that needs better communication. Is there going to be a review of the communication system in the province?
MR. LESTER: The province for probably the last six or seven years has been implementing the trunk mobile radio system in this province. All the fire departments are on the system, the provincial departments, the ground search and rescue teams, the municipal EMOs, the provincial EMOs. It has been a gradual development of that process. The technical ability to communicate during an emergency is there. I think where there needs to
be more activity is in training to ensure that those who are utilizing the equipment know how to do it properly, and to have that coordinated. Being an old policeman, there are a lot of things that are going through your mind while you are out on the road, and perhaps how to connect with the Halifax headquarters of EMO on the trunk mobile radio system may slip your mind.
These things have to be reinforced. I think we will get there. We have a world-class radio network that is in fact backed up by any number of other systems. Really, Nova Scotia sits in a very good position. There are some of the municipal police forces that are not yet on the trunk mobile network. Personally I would like to see that addressed as soon as we can do it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wilson, I do have to move along, following the chairman's guidelines here. Mr. Russell MacKinnon.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Gentlemen, I thank you for coming and sharing this. I guess hindsight is always 20/20 on some of these issues. Here on the Economic Development Committee, we try to examine the impact economically on issues such as Hurricane Juan. Has there been any assessment done to measure how much money could have been saved if the residents of HRM and Colchester County were given earlier notice than they were on this?
MR. LESTER: No.
MR. MACKINNON: Why not?
MR. LESTER: We're still responding.
MR. MACKINNON: My concern as well is the lack of coordination between the province and HRM on this particular matter. As I understand, EMO notified HRM that 400 soldiers would be coming to Nova Scotia, correct?
MR. LESTER: No, they applied for a number, I think that number was around 600.
MR. MACKINNON: Yes, and over 1,000 arrived.
MR. LESTER: Yes, that's correct.
MR. MACKINNON: Without notice.
MR. LESTER: Without much notice.
MR. MACKINNON: It appears to me that the municipality did the lion's share of the work here . . .
MR. LESTER: Yes.
MR. MACKINNON: . . . and not the province. Did the minister have any involvement - did you have communication with the minister prior to the storm hitting?
MR. LESTER: Yes.
MR. MACKINNON: Did he take an active involvement in preparing an emergency plan?
MR. LESTER: The emergency plan was already in place.
MR. MACKINNON: When was it put in place?
MR. LESTER: It's published on the Web site and continually updated. It's dynamic, it's there.
MR. MACKINNON: That wasn't my question. My question is when was it prepared? Because the only official press release that was issued by EMO, as best I can determine, was approximately six hours before the storm hit. Correct?
MR. LESTER: No, that is not correct. Are we talking about an emergency plan or are we talking about public information releases? Public information releases, the front page of The Chronicle-Herald, on Saturday, had the full-blown what you should do and what is necessary to do. All day Sunday the releases were going out and it's not a matter of formal press releases done up, there were interviews one after another all day long, not only with us but with my colleagues on my right. The information was being pumped out. It was going over the media but whether it was being listened to is the question. I sincerely doubt that it was.
MR. MACKINNON: Well, the press release that was issued by EMO was issued at 5:04 p.m. That's approximately six hours before the storm. Do you recall that?
MR. LESTER: I'm just verifying that. Do you recall the timing on that? (Interruption) Yes, we did.
MR. MACKINNON: It would appear to me, like the member for Eastern Shore raised concerns about the implications, the economic impact. It seems to me like six hours is not a lot of time for people to mitigate losses, to try to mitigate their losses for the fishing industry, for trying to hatch down their boats and supplies. Maybe the full impact of this
really wasn't appreciated as it was put out by Environment Canada because, as I understood from Environment Canada officials, they were issuing these warnings well in advance, probably almost two days in advance. Am I correct on that?
MR. APPLEBY: One difficulty here that we have to recognize is we were having a discussion, my staff, and if we had issued a snow warning that day, we could have closed down Halifax. That regularly happens, if we issue a heavy snowfall warning. The problem here is that the culture of the people and their knowledge of what an event like this, the impact it can have, it didn't really impact on them. I talked to a number of individuals who had calls from their family in the U.S., along the U.S. East Coast and southern U.S. who were really concerned because they know what a hurricane does. They were telling them, you know, fill your tub with water, take various measures.
I think one challenge that we have here, fortunately or unfortunately, we now know if we issue a hurricane warning or wind warnings of that again, people will respond very quickly because they know what the experience is but our real challenge now is to make sure that we can maintain a high level of when we forecast winds of 150 kilometres per hour that folks realize that these winds can really do a lot of damage. I think that was a big challenge here and initially it is really hard to get around that challenge but education is something we really have to try . . .
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, I remember back in September 1974, I believe it was, when we had a massive hurricane on Cape Breton Island, for the most part just about devastated the forest industry. We had fires and a lot of major fallout factors that followed that for years to come. I believe you would recall that. So seeing and reading and hearing about it in Halifax, it was almost like reliving what transpired.
[10:30 a.m.]
Mr. Lester, you mentioned about OCIPEP. Now OCIPEP, as I understand, receives a base amount of funding. Each province receives a base amount and it is based on a per capita. Correct? But if you look at the figures last year - and I tabled them in the House - Nova Scotia was the only province in the country that did not receive it's full base amount and I'm curious as to why not.
MR. LESTER: Are we talking about the Joint Emergency Preparedness Program, sir? Is that to what you refer?
MR. MACKINNON: Yes.
MR. LESTER: Normally, we spend more than our allotment. Our process is to have the applications from the municipalities waiting and if the federal government has any leftover money, then we will make a move to get it. This is a three-way partnership, however,
and if the municipality, at the last moment, withdraws their application for capital funding, for whatever reason, then we are left holding the bag and that, I think, was the case with the money in their year previously. It is not abnormal for us to get considerably more out of that pot than what is originally allotted.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Short snapper, Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. MACKINNON: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to that and Hurricane Juan, the declaration of the state of emergency, it appeared to me - and I stand to be corrected - it was some time, I think, after the fact, before the minister made a declaration.
MR. LESTER: The minister didn't make a declaration.
MR. MACKINNON: Well, the Premier did.
MR. LESTER: The mayor did, sir.
MR. MACKINNON: Why was it left to the municipality? Why wasn't the province taking the lead on this?
MR. LESTER: It was a municipal issue that was being addressed and under the legislation, the municipality is empowered to do so, the council.
MR. MACKINNON: That included Colchester as well?
MR. LESTER: No, they made the decision they didn't need it.
MR. MACKINNON: Just one final statement, Mr. Chairman. It's because the Act clearly states in Section 3(2), "The Minister shall co-ordinate emergency measures plans within the Province and may delegate powers . . ." Then there is also, in Section 5, "The Governor in Council may appoint, from among members of the Executive Council, a committee to advise the Governor-in-Council on matters relating to emergencies.", which obviously, if you are talking $80 million and the impact, the farming industry came before the Legislature and said that they are talking about $300 million in losses. I guess my concern is, and again hindsight is always 20/20, but if you put that in some type of a policy evaluation that perhaps the province should be a little more proactive on matters like this rather than letting the province, or the municipalities to their own devices.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parent.
MR. PARENT: Mr. Chairman, I just want to get back to the national strategy that we were talking about before and the need for it. Not really a question but a comment to encourage you to push, and I know you are pushing as hard as you can to get the federal
government to implement this national strategy because one of the issues that we have in Kings County in Kentville is do we qualify again for flood assistance. I think that ties in, is there a national strategy, is there clarity, are there some standards that we can all be aware of, because they have received different answers in this regard.
The question I want to ask is, the Chairman mentioned that we are an Economic Development Committee and we should be looking at those issues. What was the cost to the province of the recent disasters, particularly Hurricane Juan? My understanding is that in the floods in Cape Breton, and Cumberland in Springhill in 1999, that we still haven't received money from the federal government for those claims. Is that accurate? Then I have one last question which I want to slip in after your answers.
MR. LESTER: I'm going to try to remember these . . .
MR. PARENT: The cost is the one and recouping the money from the federal government.
MR. LESTER: The floods for Cumberland/Queens in September 1999 have gone forward to the federal government for finalization. It's not unusual - well, I will make the comment on the Cape Breton flood. We are in the final stages of putting our final claim forward. This, of course, is audited by Audit Canada, bearing in mind with this time frame that municipalities are allowed to claim 100 per cent of the infrastructure costs as a result of these damages. A lot of them don't get the work done immediately, sometimes it goes to tender, they wait in line and so on and so forth. It may be two or three years before things are actually finalized, this is not unusual. The first two are at the point now where we are in the final stages, the first one is forwarded for consideration and the other is just pending some touch-ups.
MR. PARENT: Then the cost to the province of Hurricane Juan?
MR. LESTER: At the moment we are at $47 million and counting.
MR. PARENT: That it is costing the province directly?
MR. LESTER: Yes, those are our eligible expenses at this stage.
MR. PARENT: My last quick question moving away from that is to a letter I wrote you and since I have you here I must ask you about it. I had a very tragic accident in my community where a young woman crashed into a telephone pole and the parents were told - and I'm not sure, maybe you could correct this - that the 911 system doesn't automatically ask the question, does the accident involve a telephone pole, but it waits until the first responders are on the scene and if there are wires on the car or whatever, then the power company is called. Is that accurate and if it's accurate, why not include in the 911 questions,
that question, did this accident involve electrical wires, in which case they could be sent at the same time as the police, fire department and paramedics?
MR. LESTER: I hesitate to get into the specifics of that matter, as we have committed to do, we will be following up with specifics after we are through investigating it. If you think of the 911 system, it's a call-transfer system. When you call they say, 911, what is your emergency and you say, medical or I have a 90-year-old woman who has fallen, et cetera, then you go on to the dispatch of the emergency service you need. The questions they ask are specific to the nature of their work and I'm not sure if that's part of their standard operating procedure, if they ask that question or not. It goes beyond what we do with the call transfer.
MR. PARENT: But you will check into it for me.
MR. LESTER: Yes.
MR. PARENT: Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Lester, in your presentation this morning you focused on flood plains. You pointed out to us that building permits continue to be issued on land that is subject to flooding. I assume you are talking here about Truro and Colchester County primarily, is that right?
MR. LESTER: That's one of them, sir, but I think we can find them in any number of places across the province.
MR. EPSTEIN: What I'm wondering is what steps, if any, EMO either has taken or considers that it could take, in order to either stop or discourage municipalities from continuing to issue building permits for properties in flood plains? It seems to me that there is already at least on record a statement from the Minister of Municipal Affairs through the Municipal Government Act that suggests that building on flood plains is a really bad idea and it says to municipalities they shouldn't do this, but they continue to do it. What mechanism is there beyond that or should we strengthen that mechanism?
MR. LESTER: I think strengthen is the word. I guess you could put yourself in the position of the municipality when somebody says, what about this flood plain? Well, what is the definition of a flood plain and has it been designated and how do you know it is? We need some scientific information that would indicate this area is a hazard for flooding and it's not just from river flooding. This phenomenon we have had lately with tidal surges and so on, how far does the water go up the river down in Bridgewater before it's through the doors of the shopping centre and so on; it's a very complex, involved and costly process.
MR. EPSTEIN: Is that something that you think EMO will be more involved in in any detail at all?
MR. LESTER: We have been involved in it, sir, for about the last six or seven years. There have been sporadic efforts by the federal government to bring this issue forward, it's not confined, of course, to Nova Scotia but it seems for one reason or another, the case never gets prosecuted.
MR. EPSTEIN: You also drew our attention to culverts. Were you suggesting that culverts should be larger or there is something effective we could do about culverts, or the municipalities could do about culverts, or is it just a hard fact of life - that is the way it is?
MR. LESTER: From my perspective, if the culvert washes out, why are you putting back in the same size culvert? The thing that comes into play here, when we get into Disaster Financial Assistance and the response, the federal program will replace what was there but won't improve on it. It really discourages any kind of proactivity with respect to putting in place a system that will handle the water.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Epstein. For this second round, in the name of fairness, we're going to have to go to five minutes. Ms. Whalen has a question and she didn't get in in the first round. Ms. Whalen.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: I apologize for being a little late so if these questions have come up prior to my arriving, please let me know. I wanted to touch on again the $47 million you said are eligible expenses from this disaster. Can you provide us with a figure that would be how much the Province of Nova Scotia is going to have to bear alone without being eligible for any assistance from the federal government? What's our stand-alone figure?
MR. LESTER: I have no idea at this stage with Juan. In fact, the only program that we are satisfied that we have any perspective on would be the one for Cumberland and Queens, which is rather a small amount that we claimed. The amount was $3.3 million for the Cumberland/Queens experience and we deducted $1 million from that as our deductible to the federal government, it's a dollar per population basically. So, we're looking at $2.3 million so we're on the hook for at least $1 million there, in ballpark figures. Juan, we are so far down the road, and the experience again with the auditors, it's an experience and one I don't look forward to.
[10:41 a.m. Mr. Russell MacKinnon resumed the Chair.]
MS. WHALEN: Can you speculate on how long this process is going to take? You have experience from previous disasters and you are alluding to the fact that it's a difficult process.
MR. LESTER: We have improved the process, speeded it up, but then the volume has increased. Speculation would be the word and I can't really tie it down.
MS. WHELAN: Are we talking about a year?
MR. LESTER: Oh no, it will be a lot longer than that.
MS. WHALEN: Okay, that tells me something right there, thank you. I would like you to just explain what you mean by eligible expenses, just to define it better to make sure we all understand.
MR. LESTER: We used the example earlier with a farm, that the Disaster Financial Assistance Program will only cover a farmer who draws 51 per cent of his income from the farm. Somebody who is out doing other things - as a lot of them are now - who doesn't reach that 51 per cent figure, that's not eligible.
MS. WHALEN: So these are all business losses, that $47 million?
MR. LESTER: No. The bulk of it would be municipal and provincial infrastructure costs. The municipalities are generally in line for 100 per cent recovery off their infrastructure costs.
MS. WHALEN: And these are all expenses that wouldn't be insurable, is that right? I had understood if it's insurable . . .
MR. LESTER: Uninsurable losses which is subject to interpretation as well. What is uninsurable and what is not?
MS. WHALEN: The other question is, is there any figure that indicates our total loss, including what was covered by insurance or could have been covered by insurance and therefore is not covered by any help?
MR. LESTER: A ballpark guess at where we are with Juan now, probably at $100 million.
MS. WHALEN: I think that helps. I was surprised as well by the question by Mr. Epstein about the fact you are also doing the processing of all of these claims. When I looked briefly at your organization chart, I don't see that you have staff, at least it's not apparent that you have staff to do that kind of work. How are you managing that and what staff resources have been made available to you?
MR. LESTER: Well, thank you, I have been identifying that too. We were into a situation where our three field people, for instance, not only have to respond to the emergencies and work with the municipalities, but then they get into the Disaster Financial
Assistance delivery with applications and the process and the appeals and so it goes. So it is very time-consuming. We do have contractors in place for adjustors this time around and we believe that we are making a lot more headway now than what we did before with the former set-up. We are managing but it is very human resource intensive.
[10:45 a.m.]
MS. WHALEN: How many claims are you processing? Have you any idea of the total number that have come in or how many you might expect?
MR. LESTER: Well, we have closed the programs. Perhaps if the chairman would agree, I could provide a more comprehensive report across the board so it will give everybody the picture of that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
MR. LESTER: I'm not sure of the figure.
MS. WHALEN: That's fine. I would be happy to receive it later.
MR. LESTER: About 1,200 for Juan now.
MS. WHALEN: Have you asked the minister for more help or to have another part of his department handle these claims?
MR. LESTER: We have had the co-operation across the government, not just with the minister but other departments are helping. We are there but we all have our challenges. I think we will manage the way we are now unless we get another hurricane or flood.
MS. WHALEN: I see your point. It's just that field people are not accountants or financial administrative people so they don't have that background and perhaps that's not where their love lies either in terms of what they would like to be doing.
MR. LESTER: A lot of geography to cover, too, for three people with the number of municipalities, what have you.
MS. WHALEN: It just doesn't seem like a good fit to be leaving it where it is. I think that has been raised. We will look into that.
I wanted to ask about the impact in the city again. I represent an urban riding in Clayton Park. Also the downtown has a lot as well but I'm concerned about people who are in apartment buildings and I would like to know if you had any specific scenarios that came up because of the high-rise buildings and even the three- and four-storey apartment buildings are too high for some of the elderly people to have exited or left during this period when there was no power. It seems to me it is a unique challenge and concern and there was not much said about it during the difficulty. I'm thinking of all the people I knocked on doors with, they are all in there.
MR. LESTER: I guess I'm a bit removed from what was going on locally. I guess perhaps the good news is that I didn't hear very much in the way of complaints about that except what did make the media. Certainly, it's really easier to deal with rural Nova Scotians in a situation like the hurricane than it is in the urban areas where, as you pointed out, we have the apartment buildings and so on. Rural Nova Scotians, left to their own devices, will probably find a way through it but if you live in an apartment building on the 15th floor and you have no power and no water, it's a horse of a different colour.
MS. WHALEN: That's just it. I felt it was a unique situation and I haven't heard anything about it. Can you say if there is any plan being written to address that or who I might contact? That's my last question.
MR. LESTER: I would suggest for any comments that my counterpart for Halifax Regional Municipality, Barry Manuel is the Emergency Measures Coordinator for HRM.
MS. WHALEN: I might bring it up with him. Thank you very much because I think it's a concern that there should be a plan.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of things. The information, Mr. Lester, that you are going to share with the committee, regarding the applications, I wonder, would it be agreed that you could, as well, indicate the type of application, be it farming, woodlot, fishing, municipal residence and small business and how many applications have actually been approved and, as well, how many cheques have been issued because, and again, with all respect, I recognize that it is an arduous, complicated process but I'm really concerned that we have only actually issued cheques to two farming claims, no woodlots, et cetera. I realize that there is rationale for that but would it be reasonable to ask for that type of breakdown, Mr. Lester?
MR. LESTER: Certainly.
MR. TAYLOR: Okay. Now you indicated that as far as you are concerned, the greatest void by far in the world of natural disasters is mitigation and the fact that we really don't have a contemporary strategy, a national strategy. I know relative to Hurricane Juan, the Prime Minister of the day didn't see fit, or for whatever reason, didn't come to Nova Scotia when, in fact, it was probably the first and foremost biggest issue we had to deal with in this province. What are the chances - I'm sure your provincial counterparts across this country have similar concerns. I know they certainly do in Manitoba - in the next two or three years of actually having the DFAA updated and reflecting what is actually a situation regarding these recurring natural disasters.
MR. LESTER: Well, I guess, sir, your guess is as good as mine, at the success rate. I can assure you that we are going to be pushing it and this is at a two-pronged level. We have the senior officials responsible for emergency preparedness and we have a deputy ministers' committee as well. Of course, the directors are feeding the deputies and they will be meeting on that topic, I would expect, before Spring. The deputy ministers will be there. The senior officials will be meeting the end of February. It's at the top of the list.
MR. TAYLOR: I wonder if Environment Canada can tell us if that storm is going to shut the city down today? (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Pictou West.
MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I know our time is running short but I just want to follow up on my earlier question about our preparedness for the next storm or disaster, whenever it comes, especially if it happens this time of year. Winter is our most dangerous and vulnerable time, again around our seniors and disabled. I mentioned earlier about the need for a central list so we know who these people are, whether they are in a high-rise building in the city or they are in a rural, isolated community, they still - neighbour helping neighbour is wonderful and that happens probably more so in the rural areas but still, there are people out there. Perhaps they are not known or not being visited after a disaster. Within a matter of hours, this time of year, it could be quite devastating.
I just want to ask, is there any plan or any idea to work toward a central list so we know who these people are and where they live or do we know that now? Do we know who the most vulnerable people are who are in danger for the next disaster?
MR. LESTER: I would suggest that in some communities they do, others are lacking perhaps; in the larger centres, it's much more difficult. As far as a central repository, I would suggest that the way to deal with this would be by the individual community. Otherwise, it just will get lost in the shuffle. It becomes unmanageable. It's like contact lists, they are only good for a maximum of six months, then they change. There has to be a means in place where somebody knows that there has been a change. Frequently, even with the departmental emergency planning officers or the municipal people, somebody will leave through
retirement or something and we don't get notified so we have to go back and validate the system again. It's much easier addressed, I would suggest, at the municipal level and would be more effective there as well.
MR. PARKER: Are there any plans to coordinate or to see that implemented throughout the province?
MR. LESTER: It's one of the issues that we will probably take up during our evaluation of the municipal preparedness as we go through it again this coming year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.
MR. THERIAULT: I have two questions for Environment Canada. As a fisherman - I have been a fisherman for 35 years, on the water for 35 years - I know the water temperature is rising and I know that as the water temperature rises that we are going to have more storms because years ago when they got up to the cold water, above Cape Hatteras, the hurricanes would die down, the cold water would bring them down. So if our water is warming, these hurricanes aren't going to stop. They are going to keep coming and go through Halifax again and again and again. Has Environment Canada been monitoring water temperature or have Coast Guard, Transport Canada been monitoring water temperatures and if so, what has the change been in the past 10 years, especially in the Gulf of Maine?
MR. APPLEBY: We regularly produce a sea surface temperature chart that's issued, I believe, weekly and that's available and done in co-operation with the Department of National Defense. Offhand I can't tell you, we do notice there is some warming, but I don't know of any studies that specifically would give you trends because it's a difficult thing to measure in the sense that most of the temperatures we have are either derived from satellite observations or from ship observations, so there is a difference in the depth which, as you would probably know, makes a difference in the temperature that we are seeing there.
We have seen warmer temperatures, particularly with Hurricane Juan, the temperatures off Nova Scotia were warmer than we would usually see and we attribute that to the fact that the storm didn't weaken as much as we expected it to when it came across the cold water. In general, the research that we said we were working on in this area, we see trends towards more severe-type storms, maybe a little less frequent, but more severe-type storms, in the larger westerly-type storms like our winter storms. With hurricanes there are many factors involved with them and it's very difficult, some of the trends, we think we have a trend and we don't because there's a fairly large swing in the climatology.
We went through the 1970s and 1980s with quite weak hurricane activity. We came into the 1990s and we've had a lot of activity, similar to what we had in the 1950s, so there is a natural cycle there as well that, to be honest, we don't have a really good understanding of it. We do see that there are trends there and with some of the global change and the
modelling that we are doing in the future, these are maybe some of the types of things that we can expect in the future, so we should try to prepare ourselves for disasters of this nature.
MR. CHAIRMAN: One short snapper, the member for Halifax Clayton Park.
MS. WHALEN: It follows up on the question just being asked. I had indicated the same thing going through your presentation that there was a lot there about the changing weather patterns. If we know this is to be expected more often, when would we see a plan that would show what our annual communication is going to be with the public? We know in the American States that are hit by hurricanes and so on, they begin at the beginning of hurricane season to tell people.
MR. APPLEBY: We try to do that. We have a couple of programs that we have been doing over the last few years and will continue to beef up. We have a severe weather week, one in the Spring for severe summer weather, and one in the Fall for severe winter weather, just to alert people to what they can expect, what they can do to protect themselves against things in the summer like lightening, flooding, and we will continue to work with first responders at beefing those programs up so we can inform the public.
[11:00 a.m.]
Another thing that we are doing, Peter Bowyer who is supposed to be here today but is ill, he's going to take a workshop on the road around eastern Canada to work with some of the first responders and Emergency Measures Organizations on hurricane response. We are trying to bring some of the knowledge that we know exists in the U.S., to our Canadian situation because it's a little different, sometimes we don't have a hurricane but in this instance we did.
You mentioned the flooding in Colchester County and in that case, that was what we call post-tropical, a tropical storm actually, that moved up in the weather patterns and because it had tropical air, which is very moist, we got very heavy rains. We are now, at the present stage, a leader, particularly in this region, at doing research on those types of storms. Those are the storms we really need to understand because those are the storms that are more likely to hit us than Juan and can also cause tremendous damage.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just one final point for clarification for the committee, Mr. Lester, you indicated the province's cost was $47 million. For disaster relief, I thought it was 90/10, 90 per cent the responsibility of the federal government and 10 per cent of the province. Does that mean the federal government has a charge of $470 million?
MR. LESTER: I would have to verify that figure, it's a graduating scale.
MR. CHAIRMAN: But I'm correct on that split?
MR. LESTER: Yes, we're at 90/10 now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I just needed clarification on that. Just to recognize, we have in attendance as well, watching the proceedings, a member of the Halifax Regional Council - I'm sure he will bring the deliberations back and talk as well - a former member of the Legislature, Mr. David Hendsbee. I would like to thank Mr. Lester, Mr. Kirkwood and Mr. Appleby. This was very informative and a very productive session here today, thank you.
Is there a motion for adjournment?
MR. PARKER: I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The meeting is adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 11:02 a.m.]