HALIFAX, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2003
STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
10:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Russell MacKinnon
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will call this meeting to order. At the outset what I will do is ask the individual members of the committee if they would identify themselves, starting on my immediate left and going clockwise and then we'll introduce the topic and the witnesses for the day. So, I will start with the first member.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Today, we have with us, ladies and gentlemen, witnesses on the topic of the Nova Scotia Nominee Program. From the Office of Economic Development we have with us, Mr. Jim Stanley, who is the Director of Policy & Strategy; and Miss Carole Lee Reinhardt, Immigration Policy & Planning. I notice we have another lady with the witnesses, Claudette Legault, Executive Director of MISA, the Metropolitan Immigrant Settlement Association.
We also have as an observer, a representative from Immigration Canada. If you would like to just go up and introduce yourself.
MR. ALEXANDRE PAVLOVSKI: I am with MISA. I am on the board of MISA. My name is Alex Pavlovski.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe if you could just introduce yourself just for the record.
MR. RON HEISLER: I'm Ron Heisler with Citizenship & Immigration Canada and I am just here to observe.
1
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We have just been joined by the member for Clare, Wayne Gaudet, and Mr. Chisholm, from Guysborough-Port Hawkesbury will be a few minutes late. So, Mr. Stanley and Ms. Legault, if you would like to start with an opening statement and presentation on your topic and perhaps after 5, 10, 15 or 30 minutes, we will entertain some questions.
MR. JIM STANLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to be here this morning. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We appreciate this opportunity to be with you and to provide information regarding the Nova Scotia Nominee Program.
The new census data released last year has confirmed what many suspected, that Canada's aging population and declining birth rate have implications for our economy. By the year 2011, immigration is expected to account for virtually all of the net population growth in Canada. Apart from addressing skill shortages and business investment, immigration spawns innovation as well, I think, in our communities and in our business sector. Studies have shown that innovative communities are also culturally diverse, as immigrants bring new ideas and new approaches to our society.
Immigration in Nova Scotia has been steadily declining, a challenge for us all, I believe. Over 76 per cent of the immigrants who came to Canada in 2001 went to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. In 2001, less than 1 per cent of the immigration coming to Canada settled in Nova Scotia. Many immigrants who come to Nova Scotia in the end do not remain here but settle in the larger centres.
The key to attracting and retaining immigrants is the creation of a welcoming community, with work and business opportunities as well as social, cultural and spiritual opportunities for the immigrants, so that they have, in fact, a welcoming community that they become a part of when they come here.
The Government of Canada has primary responsibility for immigration. These responsibilities include: setting immigration and refugee intake targets; selecting immigration according to existing legislation and regulation; providing funding to support settlement services for immigrants; and defining membership and requirements for membership in Canadian society.
In Nova Scotia, the responsibility for immigration is divided between - this is in the provincial government - the Department of Education and the Office of Economic Development. The Department of Education is responsible for liaison and consultation with Citizenship and Immigration Canada and coordination of provincial immigration matters overall. The Office of Economic Development is responsible for overall business immigration and the Nova Scotia Nominee Program itself.
I want to take a couple of minutes and talk a bit more about the Nominee Program because it is relatively new. The Nova Scotia Nominee Program was signed on August 27, 2002, allowing Nova Scotia to nominate up to 200 immigrants per year for a five year period, based on criteria which the province has established. I think this is a new innovation in the immigration area here in Nova Scotia in that it engages the provincial government and provincial partners much more effectively.
Nova Scotia's program is initially targeting economic immigrants who are interested in coming and staying in Nova Scotia. There is a strong focus on those interested in rural areas, because traditionally 90 per cent of our immigration has gone to the metropolitan Halifax core. The Nova Scotia Nominee Program gives Nova Scotia the ability to have accelerated processing for up to 200 immigrants per year for the five year life of the agreement. This agreement is outside the traditional immigration categories that we had in place with Immigration Canada. The targeted level can be exceeded upon mutual consent of both parties to the agreement. So, 200 per year is the sort of base target.
These are immigrants who would not fit into the usual categories of federal immigration but who Nova Scotia deems to be beneficial. Each province has unique skill and/or economic focus to its agreement. There are a number of other provinces across Canada that have a Nominee Program agreement with the federal government.
The immigrants are nominated because they provide economic benefit to Nova Scotia on an industrial and economic basis, and/or because they address labour market needs that we have here in the province.
Nova Scotia is the first province to have a francophone component in our agreement. These clauses commit us to consult with representatives of the francophone community regarding skills requirements and attraction of potential francophone nominees and immigrants to communities in Nova Scotia who want to receive them.
While the program is in operation throughout the province, we have made a conscious decision to proceed slowly and carefully. We are making every effort to choose people who will remain in Nova Scotia, and not just touch down here and end up in the larger centres in the country.
Once an immigrant has landed in Canada, however, they are then protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and they are able to live wherever they choose. This means that if we issue a certificate for a nominee, they may choose not to settle in Nova Scotia after all. They may go off somewhere else.
So I am coming back to the welcoming community aspect, the importance of the welcoming community as part of keeping immigrants here. This experience of other provinces is instructional and to our benefit to take into account. It tells us to take the time to manage the selection process very carefully.
The Nova Scotia Nominee Program considers candidates with management expertise and also those who work in fields where skill shortages exist. There has to be a guaranteed job offer for the nominee. A person is nominated when a skills gap exists in a particular community or a particular business or industry and there is no Nova Scotian to do the job.
At present, we have 50 completed files with 15 pending visits and interviews. We have issued 16 nomination certificates and 10 are pending final decision. Nominees have come from the United States, the United Kingdom, Lebanon, Germany, India, Taiwan and Korea.
The Office of Economic Development continues to work with the stakeholders to promote and create awareness of the program and its potential to the economy of the province.
Immigration is an important issue for the province, increasingly so. A joint ministerial initiative led by our colleagues in the Department of Education has begun to prepare a comprehensive immigration strategy for the province. This will look at various aspects of immigration and we expect some adjustments to take place in the Nominee Program in order to align it with the emerging provincial strategy.
In addition, the Office of Economic Development co-chairs a committee on immigration with our federal partners, Citizenship and Immigration Canada. The committee has a number of joint initiatives underway, including the development of a pilot program for foreign students, similar to agreements that are in place in other provinces.
The province has supported a variety of immigration work with our non-government partners, including the New Beginnings Program with MISA, and the publication, which they have recently issued called, Everything Ventured Something Gained.
In the future, we look forward to working more closely with immigration stakeholders in the business community, to articulate the needs of the province in terms of immigration and to make Nova Scotia a more welcoming place for immigrants. We feel this is certainly in our collective interests as we proceed together to make Nova Scotia a more prosperous place for us all to live, work and do business. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and committee members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Stanley. Ms. Legault, would you like to offer a few words?
MS. CLAUDETTE LEGAULT: Sure. Unfortunately, I brought a Power Point presentation thinking there would be a computer and there isn't. I brought overheads just in case, which I left in the office. (Laughter) So much for a backup. I don't know, perhaps I could ask the clerk to hand out the handouts that were going to be with the slides, so at least the members of the committee can follow.
Let me begin by thanking you for inviting me as a representative of MISA to make a presentation, and also to participate in the discussion around immigration and its potentially economic impact on the province.
While I make the presentation, I am joined today by two colleagues, Nabiha Atallah, from MISA, who is the Senior Manager and responsible for our Immigrant Entrepreneur Orientation Program. Also, Mr. Alex Pavlovski, who is a member of our board, an entrepreneur and a recent Haligonian.
[10:15 a.m.]
I am the Executive Director of MISA. MISA is the Metropolitan Immigrant Settlement Association, founded in 1980. We provide a wide range of services to all categories of immigrants and it is basically to provide some supports in their settlement and integration process here in Nova Scotia. Two of the programs, I guess, which relate fairly specifically to the mandate of this committee are the Labour Market Attachment Program - an employment counselling and placement program - which was referred to earlier, where we receive support from the Department of Education. Also, our Immigrant Entrepreneur Orientation Program, which receives support from ACOA and also through the Office of Economic Development.
Perhaps I can begin just by - I was focusing my comments on the Provincial Nominee Program because that is initially what I thought was the primary focus of the meeting, but then also offer some other suggestions around, basically, how we can maximize immigration to the benefit of all Nova Scotians.
First of all, in relation to the Provincial Nominee Program, I guess I would like to begin by saying it is a very positive initiative and one that we certainly welcome. I think there is a need and an opportunity to collaborate across sectors so that we can maximize the benefits of the province. I would hope that in the discussion, the Provincial Nominee Program is only seen as one component of an overall Nova Scotia immigration strategy, so, basically, that the goals of the program should support what our broader goals are for the province.
In terms of maximizing success, I guess there were four points we would like to make: One, that the program should ensure flexibility, involve stakeholders, that it be an open and transparent process, and that the plan be not only for the attraction of immigrants but for the integration and the retention. I think it is not enough just to get them here.
When we look back in the mid-1990s, we reached our maximum threshold in terms of immigration to the province, and of all the immigrants that arrived from 1991 to 2001, 62 per cent of them left. Also, in 1995, Nova Scotia was receiving 12 per cent, across the country, of all of the immigrant entrepreneurs who came to Canada.
It is not enough just to get them here, so when we look at plans, it has to be more than just recruitment and attraction, but integration and retention. I think you raised some of the other components that we have to include in there and we are very supportive of the initiatives that have happened around there.
In terms of ensuring flexibility, at this point, one of the main focuses is a rural focus and a francophone focus which we think is very positive. We also feel that it should be brought in to include the HRM in the definition and the criteria because, as was mentioned, the majority of the immigrants do come to the HRM area. This is where there already is a critical mass. So to not include Halifax as a primary criteria, I think, we would again not maximize the potential that we have with the PNP. So it is not to diminish the focus in the rural areas but to make sure that the HRM is also included.
As was mentioned, it should be employer-driven. If we are looking at meeting our skills shortages, involving the private sector directly in recruiting with the local market needs in mind.
One of the things that we would strongly recommend is working with our existing local immigrant communities, that all of the research and the data suggests that people, that newcomers and immigrants want to come to place where they are already know somebody, whether it be a friend, a colleague, a family member. They are key to attraction.
While we realize that 62 per cent left, what we need to do is work with the 38 per cent who stayed. They stayed here for the same reasons that we did. They were able to support themselves and their family, they liked what the community offers. They are probably our most valuable resource in terms of recruiting other people and selling them on the advantages of Nova Scotia, and being able to help them with the integration process.
The selection process should be open and transparent. I think there's an opportunity to look at different mechanisms for how we process the applicants in a way that we can increase the amount of resources that the province has to support other programs and the provincial Nominee Program, so a direct application process as well as the current mechanisms which exist.
In relation to open and transparent, ongoing evaluation and, I guess, modifications to the program, we have the advantage over other programs across the country that have been operating longer, we can look at their successes, which I know we've been doing, but we also need to kind of continually monitor and change. We've started off on one foot, which I think is a good direction, but continue to tailor and make adjustments, because if it doesn't work well for those who come and we don't make those changes, the word will go back very quickly, from where they came, that it's not working. So I think we have to be very vigilant about ongoing attention to that.
Retention and integration - again, looking at not just getting them here, making sure that people who do come have accurate information prior to their arrival. Whether they're coming to Halifax or Truro or Sydney, it's very important that we make sure they have all the information they and their families need to make sure that's the choice they want. Certainly the initiative in Truro, through CoRDA, is one that's trying to say we want people who know what Truro is and who are choosing Truro. There are newcomers who will do that.
It's important, as we mentioned and as was mentioned previously, that there be timely settlement and orientation services. I think it's easy to forget that when a principal applicant is accepted, they will likely come with other members of their family and children. It's important that their spouses and their children are also happy, because if they aren't they're less likely to stay. So we have to give some attention to those services. As was mentioned, creating the welcoming communities, that's going to require, how do we move from friendly to welcoming. Anyone who comes is going to stay if they have some personal contacts and if they're able to establish the network. So I think that will require some one-on-one work and a campaign of public education in terms of preparing the communities before they come, not after they come.
So what do we need to attract and keep more immigrants? The welcoming community, we need economic opportunities, newcomers aren't going to come unless they have a job or feel that they can open a business. When we look at economic opportunities, I think we have to make sure that those opportunities exist for everyone who lives in Nova Scotia as well, so it's not one against the other. A critical mass of ethnic communities - again, it's building on the immigrant communities that we have here now, building supports and networks. We don't have to have the critical mass of Toronto in order to attract and retain immigrants.
Policies and services that support integration and retention. Again, the services are a shared responsibility, and it has to cut across jurisdictions, the levels of government, federal, provincial and also municipal. Finally, long-term perspectives on immigration - just a few final points - that immigration is positive. I think the demographics suggest an urgency for the province, that the benefits are economic, they're social, they're cultural. We have to take a long-term view, as we were reminded by a colleague from Quebec who works in immigration, we're not planting wheat here, we're planting oak trees. We have to look beyond the
categories of just the economic and entrepreneur immigrants and make sure that we have an integrated program that includes refugees and family class. When we look at the most successful provincial Nominee Program in the country, it's Manitoba, but they also have the most successful refugee settlement program. It has to be a balanced program.
We need to look beyond the statistics. We need to include the communities that are here, our private sector communities, our rural communities, our francophone communities and our ethnic communities, in terms of building on it. I guess the final point is we need to be creative and we need to be courageous at this point, that if we're taking into account the long-term economic benefits to the province, there is an urgency. We need to act now. I think that it means doing the work that is required so that the immigrants who come do become a vital part of the fabric of this society.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Legault. If it's acceptable to the witnesses, then we will open up the floor for questions from individual members.
The honourable member for Pictou West.
MR. CHARLES PARKER: Ms. Legault, I just want to ask you for more details on the CoRDA initiative in the Truro, Colchester County area. Can you give us some information on that?
MS. LEGAULT: Could I ask, with the permission of the committee members, to invite Ms. Nabiha Atallah to come up and/or Alex, because they've both attended a number of the meetings, and they were there from the beginning. They could probably give you a more accurate update.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MS. NABIHA ATALLAH: Good morning. CoRDA, which is the Colchester Regional Development Authority, first approached MISA last January, saying that they were interested in learning more about immigration as a means to improving, basically, their population issues and their economic development. Alexandre and I went up last January and met with the Executive Director and the President of the Truro Chamber, and did a presentation on immigration, just an overview on the issues, the statistics and the immigration categories. They decided that they were interested in pursuing this a little bit further. I think I should backtrack a minute and say their interest was probably sparked by the signing of the provincial Nominee Program, which also identified the RDAs as the groups that would provide support in the rural areas to the newcomers.
They have proceeded very gradually, with a lot of consultation, to form a local steering committee. They've developed a three-year proposal that they're calling Building a Welcoming Community. This would involve an attempt to recruit immigrants directly to the county, and at the same time to be working with the private sector there and with the general community. Their steering committee is locally based. They have a number of immigrants on that committee. They've started three activities already. They've developed a newcomers' guide to the county, they have planned on adding a multicultural component to their Spring tulip festival, and they're doing a survey of the local immigrants in the county, to find out which communities are already established, and they're doing contacts with local employers to just raise awareness and find out what the needs of employers are. I believe the employers' survey was going on in any case, and they've decided it has application to this project.
MR. PARKER: Can I ask a follow-up question?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. PARKER: So there are actually some people who have come in from other countries already, at this point?
MS. ATALLAH: Not as a result of this initiative. The people involved, the immigrants involved are people who have been there for a few years already.
MR. PARKER: At this moment there are no new people we have come in under the program.
MS. ATALLAH: There aren't any new people. There was a suggestion by Bill Casey, the MP for the area, that they try to bring in five families together. Under current immigration law, that's not possible. Applicants are processed as individual families. The idea was that to attract people to a rural area, if they came as a small community, there would be a better chance of their staying. They have been working, as well, with Mr. Casey on that. It's one component of their project, to consider that possibility still. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, Denis Coderre came to Truro on November 7th and pledged his support in principle, his support to help find financial resources to get this project going.
MR. PARKER: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Digby-Annapolis.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Is there an outreach program of some sort, worldwide? How is this promoted, for immigrants? How do you get out to the immigrants of the world who want to move somewhere in the world? You talk a lot about labour and fulfilling people's needs here for industry and stuff, but you don't say too much about
business. Is there any promotion for people around the world to come to Canada or Nova Scotia and do business also? What kind of promotion is set up?
[10:30 a.m.]
MR. STANLEY: The work we have done so far has been sort of a mixture of issues. One is we have been attending immigrant trade fairs, particularly in Europe, in England and in France, to make people aware there that there are opportunities here and what they need to do to actually take advantage of the provincial Nominee Program. A lot of this happens through the federal ambassadors and consular offices around the world, so we have to kind of tap that and I'm sure that we're pushing that as aggressively as we should.
On the other side, in terms of business, Nova Scotia Business Inc. actually works with recruiting business to Nova Scotia. We don't have a formal program to actually recruit entrepreneurs, other than perhaps through the Nominee Program where they have to be employees essentially, not entrepreneurs. There is a need to actually move on the business recruitment side perhaps more effectively than we do now. We are out there actually making people more aware of the Nominee Program right at the moment and trying to put our focus on that.
I know my colleague, Carole Lee Reinhardt, is working with these issues on a day-to-day basis. Does that pretty much cover what we're doing?
MS. LEGAULT: Our role, in terms of MISA, we don't do any of the recruitment or the attraction. Our role is to provide supports once they get here. In terms of the province's commitment and federally, every year the Canadian Government accepts a certain number of government-sponsored refugees who have been processed overseas, and a certain percentage of those are destined for Nova Scotia, about anywhere from 178 to 200 who would come annually. But every immigrant who comes, once they are accepted either as economic immigrants or skilled workers, they can choose to land wherever they want in Canada.
We had a conference in the Spring and as someone said, people tend not to immigrate to a place they have never heard about. So I guess it's a challenge because in overseas posts they can't favour one province over another. The challenge is for us through the provincial Nominee Program and others, in fact, to get the word out because many of the things we have in Nova Scotia are, in fact, qualities like a good education for children, certainly the safety and security within the communities, are kind of conservative family values, things that many newcomers are looking for. So that will be the challenge through this program and beyond, to be accurate about what Nova Scotia is and try to ensure those who are looking for Nova Scotia to have something to offer, are the ones we ultimately get.
MR. THERIAULT: Do you think this department should get more aggressive in going after an outreach program from this department, to attract more people?
MR. STANLEY: I think it's a matter of how. We are going to have to be more aggressive if we're going to bring more - aggressive is perhaps a strong word but - business immigrants to the province. If I could, through the Chairman, Nick has a story, his own personal story that I don't know if he's willing to share this, but he comes to Nova Scotia as an entrepreneur from Russia. I've heard his story before and I think it would be interesting if the committee has a minute and is interested in hearing a brief summary of his story on how he came here. I think a lot of what we have to do through the communities that are actually here, is to reach back into their home communities around the world, to let people know what opportunities we have here and how they can proceed. Aggressive to me might mean a softer approach to this building on the communities we already have, which I think is a powerful strategy. Nick, I don't know if you're willing to or if the Chairman is willing to entertain you for a minute.
MR. ALEXANDRE PAVLOVSKI: It is very short. Thank you very much for your attention. My name is Alexandre Pavlovski and I am a professional engineer and entrepreneur from St. Petersburg, Russia. A few years ago I decided to go international, my business is in green power and corrosion protection, two fields that are my professional interests. I started assessing and evaluating values for my family as to where should I go, in my mid-40s, to take a new step in my life. Canada, as a country, was very attractive to me. I actually have two boys, ages 15 and 16 and I thought of a place in this world where I could bring them up with patience, and be satisfied professionally in a business sense of the word. Nova Scotia and Halifax, in particular, seemed to me to be a place of exactly the proper scale with an excellent educational system, the proper scale of a city that was not too large. I spent half my life in the megapolis of St. Petersburg, a city with about 5 million, with all the problems of a megapolis. Living in a more convenient environment is also very good for my family, right?
I spent most of my life near the sea so being near the ocean is also a privilege, so there are definitely several personal and professional values that matched somehow the station here. I also, of course, scanned the industrial situations, what industries have been developing in recent years and if my focus is also prepared and also found it absolutely attractive. So this is my short story.
I have been here for a bit more than a year, totally involved in a social and professional life, not only myself, but also my family - my wife is musician, a professional piano player, she is teaching publicly and privately and performing and the children are in school and they are absolutely successful. So I feel that it is a very good approach, it was thought of very accurately and this approach brought good results. I feel that people like myself are a very good promotion too for overseas, in a very general way. I have many contacts with business people, I have many international contacts, not only in Russia, but in Russia, of course, in particular. I have definitely told many of my friends about my personal impressions and I think that is very valuable for them. I agree that we could do something and it is one tool with many other tools to promote the program. Thank you, very much.
MS. LEGAULT: Perhaps one other comment in relation to should Nova Scotia - I guess it's Nova Scotia - do more outreach in terms of immigration. Last year the number of immigrants that came to Nova Scotia was probably down around 1,400, even less than some of the original statistics. Yet, the target that Manitoba has for this year is 10,000, Manitoba being a province that is more or less similar in comparison to Nova Scotia, they made a decision five or six years ago that they were going to make it a priority. It can be done and clearly, the number of immigrants who do stay in Nova Scotia, their retention rate is considerably higher and they've been able to go about that. If we're looking at, in purely financial terms, 10,000 individuals coming to Nova Scotia at some point with the transfer payments that would follow them, is a substantial contribution to the economic development, over and above what they actually contribute as producers, employers, consumers, et cetera. It is a decision that the province needs to make, I guess, based on what our long-term needs and benefits are.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the next member, I noticed, Ms. Carole Lee Reinhardt, you're the individual in charge of Immigration Policy & Planning. Since Mr. Theriault's question seems to be focused a little in that area, would you be interested in commenting?
MS. REINHARDT: The question was with regard to the marketing that we do of the Nominee Program. Because we stick to basically Team Canada events, and those are organized through Citizenship and Immigration Canada, because they're large events, we get the most bang for the buck. You have to appreciate that these fairs that we go to are really expensive, it's not so much the airfare to get there, but a booth space can be upwards to $25,000, then, of course, you really can't bring chairs and a table over with you in your suitcase, so you're renting stools and things like that over there. So we try to be very strategic, because it can eat up valuable resources, as you can imagine, very quickly.
So we focus on areas that, perhaps, need to know more about Nova Scotia , because some areas, for example, like Korea, we could fill our whole program with people wanting to come from Korea. We don't really need to go there and market. So there's a lot of planning that goes in for myself and Frances Wolfe, about where we go, what events we go, how much money that we have. Yes, if we had more resources we could hit them all. We could go to South America, but we're building slow. We want people to come to Nova Scotia and stay here. We don't want to attract a lot of people and a year later find that they are just another one of Claudette's stats, they've gone somewhere else.
People talk about Manitoba. For Manitoba's needs, their program is very successful. If we mirrored it in Nova Scotia and set 10,000 immigrants loose in the province, we would have disaster, because the welcoming community piece, that's what we're working on now, that's what we're preparing. A lot of our business immigrants, they come through the regular stream of the federal program as entrepreneurs. We're working with them and NSBI and our folks in our offices, they don't need to come through our Nominee Program. In fact, the federal Act says we cannot put a Nominee Program in place that competes with the federal investor programs or any in the federal stream. So we have to be careful that people who meet those criteria are welcome to come through. We meet with them here locally and get them established. That's one avenue that we're definitely going to be adding more resources on, especially in the outlying areas of the province, to meet business needs and encourage more investment from that standpoint.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Reinhardt. Mr. Taylor.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I just have a couple of questions, recognizing that this is only a new program, in fact, most of the details came forward this past January. I'm particularly concerned about the identification of the shortage of skilled Nova Scotians to fill any given position. I'm just wondering, regarding the skilled worker nominee program, what types of conditions or criteria are in place to make that type of identification?
MS. REINHARDT: That's a really good question. I guess you've been watching the papers lately. That is the real key issue of the program.
MR. TAYLOR: The advertisements? (Laughter)
MS. REINHARDT: I also do labour market development, so that is one of the key areas that we're focusing on for our skilled programs, the key thing now is that an employer has to identify that they've got a need. They have to come forward to us and say, I have tried to get a Nova Scotian and in a lot of cases, a Canadian, for this particular job and I am unable to. Can you help me? A lot of the people that we've taken and issued certificates for, for our program, are actually people here on temporary foreign work permits. So they're in the province, they're already settled, they've been working for some time already, they want to now remain in Nova Scotia, they've bought a house here, they're settled, so as far as we're concerned, those are very good candidates for our program.
So, we have a kind of an interim gap in place where if some employer comes to us and says, I need somebody, I think about what's been going on with some of the universities, I have an offer out on a professor and I need to get them to come in fairly quickly. We have been working with the university and HRDC and our Nominee Program to make that happen. But first, employers have to articulate needs. They have to articulate that they have done their best to find someone in province, because we don't want to be competing with other Nova Scotians if there are skilled workers for this job.
[10:45 a.m.]
MR. TAYLOR: Just a follow up to that question. Mr. Chairman, I was a bit perplexed too or curious when you notice over the last few weeks some of the tradespeople have placed some advertisements in our newspapers indicating that there is a shortage of work for Nova Scotians, keeping in mind, and I am sure there are some selection factors that are in place regarding this program. But would it be fair to ask, what types of trades, for example, or skilled work would be needed? Has it been in one particular area, so to speak?
MS. REINHARDT: What I can say definitively is that in the medical area there is definitely a skills shortage and that's been the greatest area, that and perhaps in the professional expertise in certain types of engineering. That's the most of the requests that we're getting from employers. When it comes to the trades area, it is the issue of is it a labour shortage or is it a skills shortage or is it a skills mismatch or a labour mismatch. We've not had employers coming forward to our program, can I bring in a framing crew? We haven't had that to our particular program yet. What has happened is that it has been more along the professional lines, with highly specialized skills. There may have been some technical areas, I think about the aerospace, that are very specialized skill areas that they have bid on a contract that they've been awarded but we haven't seen any interest from employers yet from the skilled trade areas.
MR. TAYLOR: The Economic Development Web site, Mr. Chairman, indicates that allowances or exceptions may be made for applicants who do not meet all the qualifications of the Nova Scotia Nominee Program but are willing to settle outside metro Halifax. I am just wondering what kind of allowances and exceptions might be made?
MS. REINHARDT: I think it is on a very individual case. From my experience with the program, and our manager of the program, Frances Wolfe, everyone gets the benefit of a personal interview. We require that people who come to the province at least have a five day visit so they know what a nice place it is and they get to see it, not from a Web site, but from our perspective. That's been pretty much it.
MR. TAYLOR: Just another question, Mr. Chairman. I understand that a nominee is permitted to bring other family members with them to live in Nova Scotia. I'm wondering who qualifies as a family member?
MS. REINHARDT: Well, and Ron may correct me on this, but it is immediate family. It is sons, daughters and parents, that's my understanding as of now.
MR. HEISLER: A very narrow definition.
MS. REINHARDT: Yes.
MR. TAYLOR: Is that a rule, I guess, that's held hard and fast?
MS. REINHARDT: I don't think we've had any cases presented with us to be truthful where someone has wanted to bring a second cousin who happens to live with them. We haven't had that situation yet and I think, as I've said, we'll deal with those on an individual basis. That's what's great about the Nominee Program, it gives us the flexibility to do those kinds of things.
MR. TAYLOR: Just to follow up, Mr. Chairman. I just wondered what guarantees might be in place to ensure that successful nominees stay in the Province of Nova Scotia?
MS. REINHARDT: Well, that's the welcoming community aspect. I think that's why we've been moving very slowly. We've been very, very careful about who we are selecting. There are a lot of people who just want out of where they are, to be truthful, Nova Scotia, Vancouver, they don't really care. We've gone very carefully and ours is very labour intensive, because we want to make sure people stay here. They've got a connection here, that they're committed to staying here. So, no, we're not at the 10,000 rate or even at the 2,000 rate, but the 16 people that we've issued certificates to are committed to staying in Nova Scotia. I think that's the success that we're aiming for rather than to bring 500 in and have 100 stay.
MR. TAYLOR: So, there is really no obligation . . .
MS. REINHARDT: Once someone is here and landed, then they're covered by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and they can live anywhere in the country that they want to. The mention of Manitoba, one of my colleagues in Manitoba was telling me that they brought in about 80 different truck drivers one year, the next year there were two left in Manitoba, they had all gone to Alberta where the pay was better. I think that is one of the challenges with the program and that's why the welcoming communities, having services in place, their receptor capacity is the really key piece that we've got to build and we're working on, especially with our strategy and our stakeholders.
MR. TAYLOR: So there really is no . . .
MS. REINHARDT: There's nothing we can do.
MR. TAYLOR: I will pass, Mr. Chairman. There's no guarantees that they're going to stay in the province.
MS. REINHARDT: We can't do anything.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe if it would be okay, we will come back, Mr. Taylor, so everyone will have an opportunity. What I'm trying to do is to allow anywhere from five to
seven minutes for each individual member. I will put that out there, so everybody will feel that they're not squished for time when they start asking questions.
Mr. Epstein.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: I would like to start by thanking Mr. Stanley and Ms. Legault for coming here, along with their staff and other volunteers. This is a fascinating subject and it's of great importance to the province. I'm very sympathetic to the enterprise. I think this is a wonderful thing. I think this is a good program. I think that we can only benefit by greater numbers of new immigrants to the province. I know MISA's work, I know MISA does very good work. To the extent that you've all identified, a welcoming community as part of the essence of attracting and retaining immigrants, I know MISA is a big contributor to that.
I do have some questions. First, Mr. Stanley, if you could help me out with this, I'm looking at those numbers that Ms. Legault mentioned for Manitoba and comparing them with our numbers in Nova Scotia. Our percentage of the Canadian population is about 3 per cent. We get 0.68 per cent of the Canadian immigrants coming to Nova Scotia. So clearly it's not even corresponding to our provincial population. Then when I look at Manitoba, which is a province of about the same size as Nova Scotia - so they would represent about 3 per cent or so of the Canadian population as well - 3 per cent of immigrants would probably be around 6,000 or 7,000 immigrants, and yet their target is 10 per cent.
I wonder first if you know how they set their target? Were they building in an assumption that they might lose some, or were they looking to actually add to their provincial population and not just keep it steady?
MR. STANLEY: I'm going to ask Carole Lee, if you don't mind, to answer this, but one of the things that I do know with Manitoba is they've made immigration a large priority. They have a big commitment from their provincial government, partnered with federal government resources, and the private sector. There's a big focus on engaging the private sector in their immigration development work as well. They've made it a priority, number one, a large priority. I think it's heavily a Winnipeg focus as it's in the large city. They've put the resources in place to really push this agenda hard. I think Carole Lee knows more about the details of what they've actually done and how they've set their targets and so on.
MS. REINHARDT: I think it started out in Manitoba as a population strategy, so I think you're correct in assuming it's not just to look at labour market needs. They're focusing on their declining population. So immigration for them serves both the labour market needs and the business development needs but the longer declining population, and that's why you see it as a bigger target than their particular ratio. They have about a 75-person office dedicated to immigration.
MR. EPSTEIN: How many people?
MS. REINHARDT: It's 75.
MR. EPSTEIN: What's the size of your office?
MS. REINHARDT: I'm proud to say we now have three. (Laughter) Bernice, Frances and myself co-ordinating. We're working on more. As I said, Manitoba has its own interest in developing the strategy that it did, just like we're developing the strategy now. We're fortunate because we've learned so much from Manitoba and the other provinces by being last in some places. We're going to have such incredible learning, do this, don't do this, try this. We're very lucky from that standpoint. I think we can work on something that fits Nova Scotia to a 't'.
MR. EPSTEIN: Very interesting. Mr. Stanley, do we, in Nova Scotia, actually have a target, either short or long term, in terms of numbers we're trying to move towards?
MR. STANLEY: I think within the provincial Nominee Program, we have the target in the agreement of 200 persons per year.
MR. EPSTEIN: I saw that. I was wondering whether, overall, in terms of any immigration strategy, whether the province has an overall target that's ever been articulated.
MR. STANLEY: No, I think that's where the immigration strategy process comes in, where we really have to wrestle with what do we want this to look like overall and what are the targets likely to be. I mentioned that in my remarks, that we're engaged in a process to do that. No, we haven't got the targets at the moment other than the P & P.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. How long has Manitoba had its program and its target of 10,000 in place?
MS. REINHARDT: Seven years, six or seven years, I think, probably.
MR. EPSTEIN: Can you tell us, you or Ms. Legault, anything about other provinces? We know about Nova Scotia now and we certainly have heard about Manitoba. Quebec, as I understand it, has its own government ministry at the provincial level dedicated to immigration. I suppose that's not strictly its responsibility but under the Constitution Act they've worked out an agreement with the federal government to do that. What about other provinces? Is there anything else we should know about other provinces and what they do?
MS. REINHARDT: I look at our Nominee Program, which we now have three streams, one is the economic that actually looks at business investment and small business development, one being the skilled, and one being community identified. I look at our
Nominee Program to be menu-driven, and that's very much the approach of other provinces. For example, B.C. launched an entrepreneur-type nominee stream that looks at taking people outside of Vancouver, and I looked at the terms and conditions. It's something that would fit very well in Nova Scotia.
Lots of them have a very focused menu, so that you may have an investor stream and a couple of options or a skilled worker stream and a couple of options and an entrepreneur stream. There is incredible variety in some nominees, right down to nurses, taking 80 nurses from a certain particular area. So we've got incredible latitude with our agreement, and we're learning from the other provinces and what they've done. What we're hoping here is to really be able to work with the business communities, because there has to be jobs and they have to articulate what their needs are and their community needs are, before we can really start to come up with targets and all of the menus that I'm talking about.
MR. EPSTEIN: I think this is a quick question. Most of the discussion here was about immigrants, and I was also wondering about refugees and whether refugees are included in those statistics that we see in terms of total immigrants, is that part of the definition or are they on top of?
MR. STANLEY: They're included.
MR. EPSTEIN: So that 0.68 per cent would include official immigrants plus refugees as well, is that right?
MR. STANLEY: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaudet.
MR. WAYNE GAUDET: Mr. Stanley, I want to focus on our immigration strategy. I heard that part of our provincial strategy has a francophone component. I guess what I'm trying to find out is if the province is currently working with the francophone communities around the province, if so, could you elaborate on how? If not, could you explain why not? So let's start off with that, please.
MR. STANLEY: The provincial Nominee Program has a unique focus included, as I mentioned earlier, on the francophone immigrants. Unique I think in the country, maybe. (Interruptions) So that's the first stage, we've at least gotten that far. The second stage that I'm aware of is doing the work with the Team Canada recruitment events overseas, particularly the one in Paris recently, or that's coming up, we worked with the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse to actually have a francophone person from one of the communities, several people actually involved in that trade mission with us. We're doing things with our colleagues in francophone communities in the province to actually begin the recruitment process.
My sense is that at the moment we have not engaged, and this would be where we would start to think about where the immigration strategy process would need to touch communities, in developing a strategy around what are the targets, what are the opportunities, what's the long-term plan for working with francophone communities to encourage immigration and what kind of immigration and so on? That, to me, is a piece of work and we're not at that stage yet.
MR. GAUDET: If I understand, technically our provincial program is aimed towards helping to recruit immigrants to rural parts of Nova Scotia. What I'm trying to find out is how are communities included, how are they invited to help with our provincial immigration strategy?
[11:00 a.m.]
MR. STANLEY: The primary focus has been on the manager of the program, a lady by the name of Frances Wolfe, who administers the day to day activity for us - has been out working with - focusing heavily upon regional development authorities or agencies in the various regions of the province, making them aware of what the program does, what its guidelines are, encouraging them to look at the opportunities, at least, to nominate persons and to work with her. That is primarily, I think, where we have touched the ground at the local level, is through the work of the regional development agencies.
MR. GAUDET: I have another question. With regards to the application process, I heard here this morning that it certainly would be helpful if the immigrant had a connection here in Nova Scotia. I have a situation at home in Digby County where I was contacted by a lady. She is trying to help her brother and his family move to Digby County. She is running a restaurant. She needs help preparing Lebanese food. She has contacted Immigration Canada. I know she has been in the process of contacting the province. She was told that she needed to advertise this job outside of Digby County, to try to see if there was anyone in the province or outside Nova Scotia that would be interested in moving down to Digby County to work in this family restaurant business. Anyway, this lady is extremely frustrated with the whole system.
I guess what I am trying to find out is the process in terms of, if someone in Nova Scotia is looking at sponsoring - and, again, having heard that it certainly would be helpful if there was a connection here in Nova Scotia. I thought to myself, this is a prime example of what this lady is going through.
I guess my question is, with our provincial program, is there a way of trying to help this lady, this family? On top of that, of course, her English is very weak so it probably creates more frustrations for this individual. There is no doubt that she needs a helping hand to see if this would be possible. Where do we go? Who should we contact?
MS. LEGAULT: I always say, call Ron Heisler at CIC. (Laughter) Don't tell him I gave you his phone number. (Laughter)
MR. STANLEY: He's just an observer. Ron, would you like to speak to that?
MR. RON HEISLER: I think what you describe is an excellent opportunity to engage the provincial Nominee Program. Federally, we have to follow rules. If we bring somebody in, just as you described, without consulting within the community, and found out that there were qualified people that knew how to do that business and were unemployed, that is where you start to get into problems with immigration.
So what you want to do in a case like that, you have identified somebody, it is not the normal stream of a job, it is not a highly-qualified engineering job, but it is an identified need within that community, you know the community support, everything that you identify sort of fits in my way of thinking along the lines of what the provincial Nominee Program could support.
From our experience in the past, over the many number of years, years ago we used to have an assisted relative category in which they could qualify to come under but that was dropped a number of years ago, back in about 1997. Something like that, you know if they come in and there is family here, the family are going to help them integrate, they are going to help them to develop.
I know families in the Shubenacadie area that came here, that the wife couldn't speak a lick of English. They are way outside of the metro area, as far as coming in. Within a year, from working in the store and being with people, their English ability is almost up to par. I think it is something that certainly could be considered.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dooks.
MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for coming here today. Just a couple of questions. Although this is a provincial program, once you have identified a nominee, does it have to go to the federal level to be rubber-stamped?
MR. STANLEY: Rubber-stamped? They might think that is a little bit (Laughter)
MR. DOOKS: The terminology, I guess, but approval on another level.
MR. STANLEY: Yes. Once the nominee certificate has been issued, then, in fact, the federal government does all the work with the nominee at the other end, in the country they are in, and they have to pass all of the basic criteria for coming here to Canada.
MR. DOOKS: Yes. Speaking of the families of the nominee, if a nominee has been identified and that person has a disabled family member, how do we view that?
MS. REINHARDT: We look at every case individually. I mean, I don't think that the health and security requirements - those are CIC's requirements that have to be satisfied for us to take our nominee certificates in. But, you know, I can't imagine that because someone had a handicapped child, for example, that that would prejudice their application for the Nominee Program. You know, you look at every individual application and that is what is great about the program. We have got flexibility to look at those kinds of things.
MR. DOOKS: Yes. I wonder, could you find that particular question - find out and get back to me with that answer? Would that be within your . . .
MS. REINHARDT: If you're talking about the Nominee Program . . .
MR. DOOKS: Yes, I would like to have that clarified. If a person has been selected into the program . . .
MR. STANLEY: Ron may have that answer now.
MR. HEISLER: Yes, I deal with this on several occasions through the normal immigration stream. Somebody in the family has a medical inadmissibility, for whatever reason.
MR. DOOKS: Yes.
MR. HEISLER: What happens in that case, that makes the whole family inadmissible normally because of the fact that there is a medical inadmissibility. The visa officer looks at it. If there is a still a strong case - in the case of a provincial nominee's certificate - they would then contact us and say, look, this is the situation, what do you think? What we do then is, we go to the province, we write them and we explain what the health situation is, and we say to them, are you okay with the issuance of a permit to allow this person to come forward?
In the number of years that I have been doing this - and I have been with Immigration for 16 years - the times that the province has refused has been very, very minimal. Usually when they refuse it is if it is a very serious illness that places an unreasonable burden on the health care system.
MR. DOOKS: Yes, thank you. So the family arrives here in Nova Scotia. How do we deal with health care? What provision is made for that? Does the nominee or does the family have to pay for health care, or is that part of the program that they are entered in and receive the benefits of Nova Scotians?
MR. STANLEY: That is a question I don't know the answer to. Do you . . .
MS. REINHARDT: In terms of health care?
MR. STANLEY: Yes. Are the immigrants eligible for Canadian benefits under our health care system?
MR. HEISLER: I believe that if they come here as immigrants they qualify for medical care right away. If refugees come here, we have a couple of different programs that we use with them. One is called the Interim Federal Health, where we cover them for a particular period of time as well.
MR. DOOKS: Just one question while you are at the mic. What about education? Are children able to go, without cost, to school?
MR. HEISLER: If they are here as an immigrant, they can attend school. It is a requirement and that is not a problem.
MR. DOOKS: When they arrive, they do come as immigrants . . .
MR. HEISLER: Yes.
MR. DOOKS: . . . but not necessarily as Canadian citizens. There is a time . . .
MR. HEISLER: Yes, there is a period of three years that they have to begin.
MR. DOOKS: Maybe you could answer this question. If someone comes on a work visa, is there a difference there?
MR. HEISLER: If they come here on a work visa, normally what happens is, we recognize that there will be accompanying family members. What the school boards should be looking at is proof of some sort of status as to - that the people have legal status to be here but then they can't attend school once that has been determined. It is just a matter of them
providing the documentation.
MR. DOOKS: One other quick question, just curiosity. Would we have illegal immigrants working in Nova Scotia?
MR. HEISLER: It is always a possibility, yes.
MR. DOOKS: Yes, but it is not a problem, certainly?
MR. HEISLER: Well, if we are made aware of the issue we investigate it and determine whether or not they are - in some cases, people think just because they are foreign that they are here illegally. We do the investigation and find out that they do have employment authorizations and do have permission to work. But under the privacy, we can't go back and give a report to people of what we have found out.
MR. DOOKS: Of course not. Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dooks. Anyone else on the first round that hasn't spoken? Mr. Wilson?
MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a quick question. It is my understanding that the life of the agreement is five years.
MR. HEISLER: Yes.
MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Do you have a standard evaluation after the five years? What kind of support will they have or do they just leave the program? Will you continue to monitor them? Is there a - I know that entails a long-term plan but, right now, do you see yourself monitoring these newcomers five, 10 years down the road to see what may have worked for them or what changes we could make in the province?
MR. STANLEY: There is an evaluation component in the agreement between the province and the Canada Employment and Immigration Commission. I'm not aware of the specifics in it at the moment but I know we plan to evaluate it. To me, we are in this for the long term, as a province. We are going to have to link the players much more effectively, and I don't just mean the MISAs and the provincial government, I mean business, community organizations, church groups, whatever components. We are going to have to find a much more highly linked immigration system and part of that is going to have to be tracking people and evaluating as much as we can within the requirements of privacy and the charter of rights and so on, what the results of our work have been. We are moving into a more systematic approach to developing immigration as a key component of developing a province.
MS. LEGAULT: Citizenship and Immigration Canada has been doing a longitudinal study which is interviewing immigrants who are willing to be interviewed when they first come, then at a year and three years, et cetera. Some of that information now is only just beginning to roll out so they have kind of agreed, when first arriving, that they wouldn't mind participating in this, so we are starting to get a sense of some of that information.
Across the country there is a project called Metropolis which has some research centres in B.C., the Prairies, Toronto and Quebec. We have just heard that it looks very positive that one will be established here in the Maritimes with a research centre in Moncton, because of the bilingual capacity, and then one here in Halifax. It's hoped that that will bring
together the policy-makers, private sector community groups and government to say, what is it that we want to know? It is perfect timing in terms of now being able to engage some support from the academic community to try to help us understand what's working and what isn't and what policies we need to put in place to be successful.
MR. STANLEY: There is another component to this that is very personal, if I may, Mr. Chairman. We have had an experience in the office, in the Office of Economic Development itself, over the last five or six months which I think is indicative of at least we are beginning to practise what we would like to preach.
We had, last summer, a candidate in the New Beginnings Program with MISA. She is here with her family. Her husband is back in her home country and she was having a great deal of difficulty finding a work placement. She is a very well-qualified individual, an economist actually. We agreed to bring her into the Office of Economic Development and have her work with us for six weeks on a work experience project, which she did a superb job on. We are doing a number of what we call sector watches where we are actually developing a document on the various important sectors in the economy of the province and looking at some of the opportunities and issues that we think are there for us to develop the economy. She had a speciality in petroleum processing. So she actually did a working brief on the petroleum sector opportunities for the Province of Nova Scotia in a six-week period and it was superb and it was very high quality but she didn't have a job.
She has a family. She has a teenage son who is in school here in Halifax. She has a daughter who actually has a Masters degree from Dalhousie in Computer Engineering who is working for one of our large companies now and she has another son who is a medical doctor, who is not certified to practise medicine in Canada.
So there are a whole set of issues here and as an office, we are saying, well, how can we care for this person? How can we help her to move along? I have a daughter who is a doctor, just recently a doctor. So I said to her, why don't we get your son to meet my daughter and they can talk about the process of going through residency in Canada and what the challenges are. We had an opportunity, where she applied for a job in our office and as recently as yesterday, I've been told she's a successful candidate to get an actual job in the office working in an economist role with us.
Each one of us has to care for immigrants. There are different ways. Every one is personal, every one is different, but I think the emphasis should be upon if we want immigrants to stay here, we are going to have to actually, each one of us, touch them, some way or another and try to help make the transition and the connection to our communities more effective.
[11:15 a.m.]
MS. LEGAULT: Maybe I can just add to that. I'm sorry I kind of threw out that Manitoba's going for 10,000, because we're not going to get to 10,000 today, but it is going to be one, then a dozen, then in the hundreds and then we will get to the thousands. This woman was getting quite discouraged about working here, and her husband, I'm sure, will quickly join her because they needed one income, so he stayed behind. She had been offered positions in Alberta and I think Ontario, at the university, but didn't want to go. I always do my little surveys before the Metropolis comes out, why did you come here in the first place? She came to visit her daughter who was studying at Dal, on several occasions, and then applied to immigrate. She has over 20 years in Venezuela in the petroleum industry there, so is a very valuable person to be arriving at this point. She said, oh, I have lots of friends in Venezuela who would be interested in coming, but the wait is a long time.
In this one family, that's how we grow it. When I asked her, how does your son like it, your youngest son? She said, oh, the other day he told me he was living a movie. I guess in Venezuela he wasn't able to go out on his own to catch the bus, to do whatever he wants, and here he can go out when he wants, he can come in, there are no security issues. She said, he's so happy. So those are the kinds of folks that I think we can recruit and who will fit very nicely into Nova Scotia and the community that we have. And thanks for taking her and hiring her.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, that concludes the first round, everybody had an opportunity.
Mr. Parker.
MR. PARKER: Mr. Chairman, I guess I want to ask my question to Mr. Stanley, or perhaps whoever wants to pick up on it. The program seems very good, and I know you're just getting started with it and it's primarily designed for those who have a business background or who have a high skill. It works both ways, of course. It provides an opportunity for them to come to our country, and it fills a need here in our province. I guess I want to ask, we also have some shortages in our workforce amongst maybe those who are less skilled. I'm thinking particularly of farm labour and fruit and vegetable producers, I know they're often crying for help in the summer and Fall months for harvesting. Is there any possibility under this program for help for those shortages that need to be addressed, or is that being addressed through other programs?
MR. HEISLER: I guess one of the biggest things you would want to ensure under the PNP was that it was ongoing and continuous employment, because what you didn't want is to bring somebody here and have them go on community assistance or anything like that, that would be a bad thing as far as trying to attract more immigrants. What we do have under the federal government is seasonal worker programs, for agriculture especially. It depends upon the uptake and the mobilization through HRDC with the employers in the area. So if there's a specific need in that area for harvesting, I know that in a lot of the old traditional things like blueberry raking and picking apples and things like that and potato harvesting and stuff like this, they're using them more and more, especially in New Brunswick now. They also have brought some into Nova Scotia, and that's sort of an ongoing program in specific countries as well.
MR. PARKER: So this program doesn't really fit for those types of workers by the sound of it. What about in the forest industry? I know there are some shortages there, and it would probably be more year-round rather than seasonal, power saw operators and even machine harvest workers on the forwarders and so on. There's a shortage there, of getting enough workers at times.
MR. HEISLER: When there's a shortage identified, and I think I would like to just back up for a second to talk about the success that Manitoba has had with the provincial Nominee Program. I want to emphasize that what basically the feds are saying is, this is your program, you decide how you want to tailor it towards your provincial needs. In Manitoba they used it initially to bring in a group of garment workers, which is not what you would call high-skilled, high-end types of jobs but there was a severe shortage in that area. So they targeted the Philippines, they brought in a lot of garment workers, and it helped within the community. These people came in, integrated and they didn't go on social services, they were productive workers, and that helped to make the community more accepting.
That's how they're starting to accelerate, because now their nominee program is up to around, I think they're asking for 1,000 a year now under the provincial Nominee Program. They've used it in so many different areas and targeted so many different strategies that get described and I think as part of developing a provincial immigration strategy, we are only limited by our imagination and, of course, the federal rules, we can sometimes stretch any kind of rules.
So I certainly think that if there are identified needs in the forest industry, if it looks like it's ongoing, some of those are fairly skilled, too, as you described, operating some of that equipment and things like that. So if there is a need that is identified as ongoing, we certainly can do it. I think that's something that the province, through the nominee program or through other types of programs, through temporary foreign worker programs, if we can look at something like this, temporary foreign worker programs, if you can bring them here for a period of time and then assess them, as we are doing with some of them, that's another
way of looking at it as well. I think you alluded to earlier, I don't know if it was Claudette or Jim, the oak tree versus the other (Interruptions)
MR. PARKER: Of course there has to be a balance to make sure that Nova Scotians who are here now are not being denied the opportunities, that where there is absolutely nobody to fill the job then perhaps this program might be available to help.
MR. HEISLER: And the province is doing a lot of work with HRDC right now on the skills and innovation agenda to try to identify sort of top 10, top 20 types of occupations where they have had a lot of demand through HRDC in the past and those are the kinds of areas that they will use as part of the strategy as well to target.
MR. PARKER: Okay, thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for clarification, just so folks will know at the committee, Mr. Heisler, if I'm correct, you are the Director of Operations for Citizenship and Immigration Canada for Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. Is that your official title?
MR. HEISLER: Yes, I currently am.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The next set of questions will be with Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: I wonder, perhaps, Mr. Stanley, if you could clarify a point for me. It has to do with the economic nominees. The point at which I got confused was when I read the description of an economic nominee on the Economic Development Department's Web site. Here's what it says, "The Province of Nova Scotia is seeking experienced managers with basic literacy skills in English, or French and English, to make a financial contribution to a Nova Scotia business and enter into an employment contract with that business." The part that confused me was the phrase, ". . . to make a financial contribution to a Nova Scotia business . . ." This sounded to me like the investor category that exists under the federal legislation. Is it expected that people who are economic nominees not only are employed in the company but become equity partners, that is take an equity position in the company?
MR. STANLEY: I'm not entirely sure what the form of the investment is. It is certainly expected they will make an investment in the company and have an employment contract with that company. I'm not up to speed entirely on what the form, whether it is equity or a loan, shareholder's loan or something like that, but it is expected they would make a financial contribution to the company.
MR. EPSTEIN: I see, okay. So the difference between the economic nominees and skilled workers is the question of actually having financial resources to put into the company. Is that right?
MR. STANLEY: I think so. Am I correct on that? Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, fine. That clarifies that. Thank you. That was my point.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions? Maybe with the permission of the committee, I have two short snappers, if that's okay. I noticed in your opening remarks you indicated that having Halifax included in the criteria for your program was a necessity or a vital component for the program. It would appear to me that what that does is put the onus on the other regions of the province to convince the architects and the managers of this program that indeed there is a legitimate argument to go outside of metro, for example, as in the Digby case. Is the way I'm interpreting that right?
MS. LEGAULT: I think we have kind of all struggled with the original definitions of the Provincial Nominee Program in terms of the initial design focusing on the rural areas and not being clear whether or not that meant Halifax or not. I'm not saying we shouldn't focus on the rural areas but we should also allow Halifax to benefit from the Provincial Nominee Program.
MR. CHAIRMAN: But you have that in your criteria, Halifax, do you? Isn't that what you indicated?
MR. STANLEY: Right now the focus is on recruitment of rural areas but I think it's open. If we want to design it so that it's Halifax and then the rural areas, we can do that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I raised that as a general question.
MR. STANLEY: Carole Lee can speak to that, as well.
MS. REINHARDT: I think initially when we talked about where we did a lot of marketing and that's the confusion, focus and marketing. We've marketed heavily outside of Halifax because Halifax already knows about the program. A lot of the skilled workers that we're getting from the skill stream are from metro. We don't need to go to DHP and the chambers here because they know about this program, they know Frances, they have worked with her for years, so where we have been focusing - and I think rightly so from the marketing standpoint - is outside of metro that doesn't have the connections that metro does.
There are a few people there, it's pretty much split. We have a good portion of people who have come from the 16 that are metro and an hour outside and the rest of them, some of them, way out. Again, we're looking at resources, and for our purpose the marketing resources of telling people about the program right now are better spent in the outside areas. Certainly, we have never excluded anyone from metro and as I say, they come to us already, they are very well engaged of the criteria of the program.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I premise that on the rationale that if you go back and check the statistics, the demographics in Nova Scotia, since the mid- to late-1980s, the trend has been to move toward metro and that's fine if that is the trend. But the equal and opposite reaction is happening in rural Nova Scotia. If my memory serves me correctly, if you go in 10-year intervals, you will find population shifts in metro will grow on an average of about 5 per cent and equally in the rural areas, with the exception of a few anomalies, for example, maybe in Kings or Hants Counties; those communities will shrink by 5 per cent, so I put that out there.
We have a retention problem in industrial Cape Breton with regard to immigrant physicians. They generally come in, they will stay two years and then they move on to the bigger metropolitan centres, so I put that out there to see if there was any way - I'm sure it will be a common interest to all members.
MR. STANLEY: Mr. Chairman, to me there are a couple of dimensions here, we're putting our emphasis on promotion in the rural areas of this program. We are beginning to get a request out of Cape Breton now from, I think, some of the partners up there. They are actually developing an immigration strategy for the Cape Breton part of the province, as well. I think it goes back in some ways to me, to the Welcoming Community Challenge. If different parts of the province, rural parts, need and want immigrants and are willing to do the sort of things that are required to attract immigrants, then that's important and that's where we should be focusing. I think Halifax will be the dominant, right at the moment I think it's roughly three-quarters of the immigrants to the province, who actually come into the metro area. That may not be enough and it's probably not enough overall, that our balance between rural and urban is not strong. That's why the CoRDA model is kind of an interesting one. Here's a local community saying, we want to have immigrants, now what do we do to make that happen.
You are being asked, if I understand it, to go to places like Yarmouth and Cape Breton and talk about the MISA work, the settlement work that MISA does here, on more of a small-town rural context, as well.
MR. CHAIRMAN: At this point, perhaps, Mr. Stanley and Ms. Legault, if you would like to make some closing remarks.
MS. LEGAULT: I forgot I had a chance to make a closing remark. I would like to thank the committee members for the time and interest shown in the discussion. Certainly, I guess just a comment in terms of the work that we've been doing with some of the provincial government departments, and also other stakeholders in the community. There was a conference that was held in April - I think I included this report in some background documents which I gave to the clerk - and the work of this conference was very exciting because it brought together stakeholders from the private sector, from the three levels of government, from community groups, and immigrants. There was a real energy that came out of that, and a sense of urgency and, I think, a commitment to work together across the
sectors. That's probably the biggest thing that we have going for us at this point, that there is kind of a growing consensus that we can do something, and if we work together we can do quite a lot.
[11:30 a.m.]
So while I raised some points in relation to the Provincial Nominee Program, that we're certainly enjoying the best collaborative, co-operative relationships that we've ever enjoyed, and as an organization that was kind of, oh, immigrants, oh that must be MISA, that we're not the only players or the only voice around the issue. I think that puts us in a very good position, maybe the next time we're asked to present we will be talking about the 62 per cent that stayed versus the 38 per cent that left. Even making that kind of a change can be quite significant.
MR. STANLEY: Thank you too, for the opportunity to come before you, from the perspective of the provincial Nominee Program. It's been an energetic discussion, which is pleasing to us and reaffirms the conviction we have of how important this program is. It's not going to solve all of the issues of the labour market and skill development and entrepreneurs in Nova Scotia, but it is important to us to move this whole agenda forward. We're going to need support from all of you as we get the strategy in place over the next while and work with our partners and move this agenda forward. So I welcome the opportunity and am really pleased with the level of interest and insightfulness of your questions and your thoughts.
MR. CHAIRMAN: On behalf of the committee, Mr. Stanley, Ms. Legault and also Mr. Pavlovski, as well as Ms. Atallah, Mr. Heisler and Ms. Carole Lee Reinhardt, we would like to thank you for coming and appearing and providing the Economic Development Committee with some very resourceful detail on a very important integral component to economic development in Nova Scotia.
At this point, we have a number of housekeeping matters that we can turn our attention to before we recess. The first item is, quickly, with regard to a letter I received from Mr. Graham Steele - I believe all members may have it - with regard to the Insurance Bureau of Canada and the Nova Scotia Government with regard to Bill No. 1, the regulations and draft regulations for the Insurance Act. He indicated in Paragraph 2 that the government and the Insurance Bureau of Canada are currently engaged in secret negotiations to amend the regulations under the Auto Insurance Reform Act. That letter was undated, but when I did receive it by fax I responded on November 13th - did all members receive a copy of my response - essentially indicating it was a matter more for the committee than for myself personally, as chairman, to decide. So I put that out there. Does anyone from the NDP caucus wish to speak to this?
MR. EPSTEIN: I do. My prime suggestion actually is that since many of us are probably going to the Premier's State of the Province Address starting at 12:00 noon, we
might move as quickly as possible through any procedural matters. I think you wrote back to Mr. Steele and we have copies of that. The matter, to some extent, has, in terms of the secrecy, now resolved itself, because the regulations have now been made public, so we now know that. I would ask that the committee think about whether we actually want to look at this issue at all, I don't mean the initial issue that was raised by Mr. Steele, I mean the issue of the impact of auto insurance on the province. I think, as I said, in light of the fact that many of us, perhaps, want to be down at the Westin at 12:00 noon, we might leave the agenda discussion for a future date. Anyway, that is where I think that stands.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Our next meeting is with Nova Scotia Business Inc., December 9, 2003, from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. Maybe I will ask Darlene to comment, is that on line?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): That's on line.
MR. TAYLOR: Who's our guest?
MRS. HENRY: Mr. Lund, as far as I know.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Also, just a housekeeping matter, since we really don't appear to be here enough that it's of considerable (Interruptions) No, no, it's an open meeting, but I just want to bring to the attention of members of the committee an e-mail that Darlene Henry, our clerk, had received from Citizenship and Immigration Canada with regard to a witness appearing when she requested Immigration Canada to appear before the committee. They declined, but yet we had a representative here today representing them. So I was a little perplexed.
Just to read the memo, it was dated 10/31/03, 9:48 a.m., "Darlene, please thank the committee for the invitation, but the appearance of a federal bureaucrat before members of a Provincial legislature is not considered appropriate. Kindly accept our regrets in this matter." So I was a little surprised when Mr. Heisler showed up, initially as an observer and then engaged in the deliberations. That may be of some significance in the future.
Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: It may be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing or, in fact, Mr. Heisler was kind enough to come. I would suggest . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, he was observant enough to indicate that he was presently employed with Immigration Canada.
MR. TAYLOR: He does a pretty good job in my opinion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not an overly big issue at this point (Interruptions) I felt it was appropriate that all members of the committee should be aware of the details of that. Other than that, we will call for an adjournment motion.
MR. TAYLOR: So moved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
[The committee adjourned at 11:37 a.m.]