MR. BRIAN BOUDREAU (Chairman): We will call the meeting to order now. My name is Brian Boudreau. I am the MLA for Cape Breton The Lakes. I am vice-chairman of the committee. I will be filling in for the chairman of the committee, who is the MLA for the beautiful Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley. He will be here soon. He had a prior commitment this morning and he has asked me to assume the chair until his arrival.
In any event, we do have the Cape Breton Growth Fund Corporation here this morning with Mr. Rick Beaton who is the CEO, and Ms. Wendy MacMullin who is accompanying Mr. Beaton. As usual, we will allow our guests to put forward their presentation, if that is what you suggest.
MR. RICK BEATON: I will go forward with the presentation if that's okay, Mr. Chairman, and then we would be glad to answer any questions after that. If there is something you find I am not going through quickly enough, I can move faster if I am going too slow.
The Cape Breton Growth Fund Corporation is a federal Crown Corporation. It is a full parent of the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation and it is responsible for the delivery of the . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, Mr. Beaton, just before you proceed, being a rookie MLA here, I made a mistake already. I would just like to ask the committee to introduce themselves, beginning with Mr. Chipman, please.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. BEATON: Thank you very much. I am Rick Beaton, CEO of the Cape Breton Growth Fund.
So the Cape Breton Growth Fund is responsible for the delivery of the economic adjustment fund established by the Governments of Canada and Nova Scotia in the wake of initial downsizing and privatization of the mines in Cape Breton. It was established in August 2000 and it was based on extensive consultation. Beginning November 1, 1999, it toured Cape Breton Island for two weeks, heard 210 presentations and, subsequent to that, we received 214 written presentations.
This is a very unique partnership among ECBC, Human Resources Development Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia. As I was alluding to in my opening remarks, it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation. It has the same flexible, broad powers as ECBC does. It does act as a parent and it has its own separate board of directors who reports to Parliament independently of ECBC. This corporation will cease to exist when all the funds are committed. In other words, not necessarily spent, but as soon as the last funds are committed on paper this corporation ceases to exist.
The objectives of the corporation are to promote and assist, otherwise alone or in conjunction with any person or the Government of Canada or the Province of Nova Scotia or any agency of either of those governments, the financing and development of industry on Cape Breton Island to provide employment outside the coal producing industries and to broaden the basic economy of Cape Breton Island.
It is basically established to make investments that complement existing programs to foster sustainable economic growth and job creation. That's an important element, it's not there to replace existing government programs of the federal or provincial governments, and it is supposed to be incremental in nature.
Our Chairman is John McLennan and he apologizes for being unable to be here today. He is the Vice-chairman and CEO of ATT Canada out of Toronto; John MacDonald, who is the CEO of Leitch Technology; George MacDonald from Halifax, a partner at McInnis Cooper; Margo Buchanan; and myself. The first four people identified all have links and were born on Cape Breton Island, and they have been quite successful and were chosen because of their success in industries outside Cape Breton and very unique approach.
The Growth Fund has also established an advisory committee that should provide the Board of Directors with feedback that is representative of what the community is saying, including all Cape Breton and Mulgrave. Here is a list of the advisory committee members. I won't read them off, but they are a good cross-section right across Cape Breton Island.
We have a staff of six people: we have an ECBC representative; we have someone from Human Resources Development Canada; we have a provincial representative, Howard Lake; we have a part-time communication officer; an executive assistant; and a bilingual officer. It is very much a one-stop shop and seamless delivery in economic development, so it is quite effective in that regard.
We have a memorandum of understanding established with ECBC which provides due diligence and review of the files. What we wanted to do is make sure we didn't create another layer of bureaucracy and spend money on staffing and a lot of people. Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation does the due diligence on the files and it is a more cost-effective way for the Growth Fund to operate. As well, there are memorandums of understanding with ECBC, HRDC and the Province of Nova Scotia on the staffing component and what they will put into it as well.
Originally the fund was $80 million; $68 million from the federal government and $12 million from the Province of Nova Scotia. Seven million dollars of that initial $68 million was committed to EDS Sydney prior to the announcement of the Growth Fund. In May 2001, the Government of Canada announced an increase of another $18 million as a result of the closure of the last working mine in Cape Breton. The total available under the fund is $98 million.
The priority areas of the growth fund are - these were established during the two week consultation process - the knowledge-based sector, oil and gas development, tourism development, environmental remediation, arts and culture, and we have another category called strategic initiatives, which could be an investment attraction, or infrastructure development.
If this fund is to be successful, as mentioned earlier, then we are going to have to make sure we lever other sources of funding, and because you have a Growth Fund with $98 million, it's not the one you go to use first. It's important that we make sure that the ACOA programs, the ECBC programs and others come to the table as they normally would. That's incremental, those existing programs.
The focus is very much on long-term sustainable growth, economic benefits and job creation, and we are focusing very much on results management as well. Some of the objectives within those priority areas are: increased trade; industrial benefits; research, development and commercialization; access to capital; direct investment; and infrastructure.
What we've done as well with the advisory committee members is five of them chair various task forces on those priority sectors. We have about 40 to 50 people on Cape Breton who volunteer their time and do it freely for no remuneration, in terms of trying to grow those sectors. What we're trying to do is pick individuals within each of those sectors who have expertise and can add value to how we grow those industries in Cape Breton. It's industrial
benefits from environmental remediation, oil and gas, knowledge-based industries, art and culture industries, and tourism.
Just in terms of some of the results so far from the expenditure of money, EDS in Sydney had 900 jobs, received $7 million from the Growth Fund and $6 million from ECBC, $7.2 million from the Province of Nova Scotia, and EDS is putting in $122 million. EDS Port Hawkesbury, it was $2.5 million from the Growth Fund, $2 million from ECBC, $4.5 million from the province, and $51 million from EDS. Upsource Inc., which is a small customer-interaction centre in North Sydney, 71 jobs, $475,000 repayable contribution from the Growth Fund, $125,000 from the Community Business Development Corporation, NEDAC and Upsource Inc. is putting in $1.4 million. Stream International in Glace Bay, 900 jobs, the Growth Fund put in $10 million, HRDC has committed up to $2 million, and Stream International themselves are putting in $143 million. Co-op Atlantic, 60 jobs, the financing there was $800,000 from the Growth Fund, $3.7 million from the Province of Nova Scotia, and $3.7 million from Co-op Atlantic.
So you can see the total Growth Fund commitments to date are just slightly over $20 million, and the remainder for distribution is $77.225 million. These were expected results that we'll probably be modifying when we first set up the Growth Fund. One thousand sustainable jobs created. You would say, well, you've already done more than that, other governments have money in it as well so you can't take credit for the full number of jobs, you can only take credit for the portion of the money you have in and break it on the ratio. We will be revisiting these figures this year, obviously. Fifty million in new incremental export sales and tourism receipts; $10 million in incremental sales to oil and gas and environmental remediation industries; $5 million in new incremental expenditures in research and development; 15 new business startups; five new export-oriented businesses attracted to Cape Breton; and $50 million in incremental direct investment.
[9:15 a.m.]
We have, as I said, a six person office at Commerce Towers, fourth floor, in Sydney. We also are available by e-mail at mmacmull@cbgf.ca. I apologize, my voice is not that strong this morning. That is a very quick summary, Mr. Chairman, of what the Growth Fund is about. I would be pleased to answer any questions people may have.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Beaton. I want to express our appreciation. It was a very fine, brief presentation, informative. I will open the floor. Just as a courtesy, I want to acknowledge that the meeting is being monitored by Hansard and we do have some media in the room and the minutes are available publicly. With that, I guess we will open up the floor. I don't have a bunch of people here wanting to ask questions, so we will go to Mr. Epstein.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Mr. Beaton, thank you very much. Could you help me follow through maybe in a little more detail. So far, you have actually committed about $20 million out of the $98 million. Is that right?
MR. BEATON: That's correct, yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: What form does that commitment take? That is, in what form has this money been advanced or promised or have you taken equity in the companies? Can you explain a little more detail about that?
MR. BEATON: I certainly can. With the EDS projects it's performance-based; they have committed to 900 jobs for Sydney and 450 for Port Hawkesbury. If those aren't there at the end of five years then there is a penalty clause and the client pays us back.
MR. EPSTEIN: But the money has been advanced.
MR. BEATON: No. In Port Hawkesbury, no money has been advanced as of today. EDS Sydney, the bulk of that money would be out at this point in time. There is a clawback provision within those two contracts that if the company doesn't fulfil its obligations at the end of five years then they are obligated to return funding to the Growth Fund.
MR. EPSTEIN: That would probably be a proportion of the funding if there is proportional performance. Is that right?
MR. BEATON: Less than 900, yes. If they had 800 rather than the 900, then they would pay us 100 times our level of assistance.
MR. EPSTEIN: Is there any security for this money?
MR. BEATON: No security for the money, sir, no.
MR. EPSTEIN: So there is no mortgage charge on assets, there is no equity position in the companies, nothing like that?
MR. BEATON: Not to date, no.
MR. EPSTEIN: Well, it is a little late after the money is advanced, but is it part of the Growth Fund's plan to do that?
MR. BEATON: We are in a position to take equity position if that is deemed the best thing to do in a business sense.
MR. EPSTEIN: But so far that hasn't happened?
MR. BEATON: So far that hasn't happened, no. We are dealing with, for the most part, multinational companies with strong track records. We have tightened the contract down to ensure that the Government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia's money is best protected as can be.
MR. EPSTEIN: Without security. What I see in the documents is that there is an anticipation that there might be almost 2,400 jobs at the end of the five year period. That is at the end of the five year period is it?
MR. BEATON: Or sooner, yes. I can give you some figures today.
MR. EPSTEIN: Well, in fact, that is what I wondered, just how many jobs are actually created to date. I see also a different reference that refers to about 1,000 jobs. Is that the current figure actually created after a year?
MR. BEATON: There are 833, I believe it is, at EDS in Sydney. There are about 50 at Upsource in North Sydney. There aren't any at Port Hawkesbury as yet, and I think Stream is somewhere around 250. So there are slightly over 1,000 jobs. Stream expects to have its 900 people in place, I believe, sometime in January.
MR. EPSTEIN: So you are expecting Stream to jump from 250 to 900 over the next two months?
MR. BEATON: Yes, they are hoping to get 400 to 600 by the end of December.
MR. EPSTEIN: These are positions that are actually created so far?
MR. BEATON: Yes, that's correct.
MR. EPSTEIN: All right. I wonder if you could help me follow through on the priority areas, because there was a list of five or six priority areas.
MR. BEATON: Yes, that's correct.
MR. EPSTEIN: As I see it so far none of these are in tourism, which is one of the priorities.
MR. BEATON: Yes, tourism was a priority.
MR. EPSTEIN: Oh no, I understand it's a priority area, I mean none of the money invested so far has been in tourism. Is that right?
MR. BEATON: That's a fair comment, yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: And none in arts and culture?
MR. BEATON: That's correct.
MR. EPSTEIN: And none in oil and gas?
MR. BEATON: That's correct. I can give you an update on exactly where we're going with that.
MR. EPSTEIN: All right, we'll get back to that in just a minute, if we could. And so far, none in environment remediation?
MR. BEATON: That's correct.
MR. EPSTEIN: Of the priority areas, of which there are five, all of the money so far would have to be characterized as committed in knowledge-based industry. Is that right?
MR. BEATON: With the exception of Co-op Atlantic.
MR. EPSTEIN: How would you characterize that?
MR. BEATON: That would be in value-added food processing.
MR. EPSTEIN: Which is not one of the priority areas.
MR. BEATON: It's a strategic investment.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, so strategic investment was kind of interesting. I am not sure I understood that entirely, the description in your overhead was either it's something that would attract investment or was part of infrastructure development.
MR. BEATON: This attracted investment. Initially, during the consultation process, people said what they were looking for was jobs, jobs, jobs. We made a very conscious decision in the first year to concentrate on attracting as many jobs as we could to Cape Breton to fill a niche and an opportunity that was there. We are now out of the customer- interaction centre business and concentrating on the other key sectors that you referred to, Mr. Epstein. We have task forces now underway. We have a call for proposals going out to consulting firms to create a road map under tourism to say what we have to do to create a 50 per cent increase in tourism visitations by the year 2007, what kinds of infrastructure, attractions, accommodations and other things are necessary in order to get there.
Oil and gas, we've commissioned a study that's being done through, I believe it's Gardner Pinfold, to look at the Ports of Sydney and the Strait of Canso to see what the niche is and the strengths and weaknesses of both are, and what realistic opportunities Cape Breton would have to attract oil and gas companies to its area. It's a bit of a visioning document.
Under environmental remediation, we had done an industrial benefits strategy. We met with the group; the task force has met 11 times since it was set up. They have a very strategic document and I think have some very key recommendations that can go forward in terms of how Cape Breton can benefit from the remediation of the tar ponds and the coal mines on Cape Breton.
Knowledge-based as well, we are currently doing an inventory of exactly what we have on Cape Breton, what goods and services they're producing, how many people are in that sector, and where we want to go. We've also looked at the concept of an expansion of a Silicon Island concept facility that would have some space for mentorship and development of youth.
MR. EPSTEIN: I'm glad these things are being studied. That's very useful, although it seems to me many of them have also been studied quite extensively before. Can I just check a couple of things. I don't know if you have your slides in front of you in paper form, on Page 22 in the handout that we were given, there was a list about expected results, and it talks about $50 million in new incremental export sales. This is a projection, is it?
MR. BEATON: This was a projection when the Growth Fund was initially put together. Those are being revisited now based on the results of the last year.
MR. EPSTEIN: So none of this is something that we can actually point to and say, here is a company that's doing more export sales as a result of our investment.
MR. BEATON: Yes, I think we can. I think that EDS, it's business is export related; Stream is export related; Upsource is export related.
MR. EPSTEIN: Can you just explain to me how that is? Why would you characterize EDS as something that exports?
MR. BEATON: Because of the services they are providing go outside of Canada; the calls they get are from outside Canada, so they are filling an export requirement. They are just doing it from Cape Breton.
MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, it's the calls that go out.
MR. BEATON: Incoming calls.
MR. EPSTEIN: So those are calls that are coming in, so you regard that as export?
MR. BEATON: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: I have to say that's a bit of a stretch in my view as to regarding something as export. I tend to think of export as something where you take raw products, you manufacture them and export them, and money comes in as a result.
MR. BEATON: Some people would argue that tourism is an export too.
MR. EPSTEIN: I would have thought, conceptually, tourism is tourism, and export is export.
MR. BEATON: I have a few annual reports to leave behind. We are going to document everything. We have a performance framework in place that has been sent to Treasury Board for approval. We will be putting the numbers against that every year to see how we make out.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Epstein, I just want to jump in here. One more question.
MR. EPSTEIN: You have to list short, okay, sorry. Is it equally true about the rest of the items on Page 22 that, and I suppose they go over to Page 23 a little bit as well, that these are projections based on the expected results of modeling but not actual results so far?
MR. BEATON: Projections is what they are, exactly.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, that's fine. Thanks very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Epstein. Mr. Dooks.
MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: Mr. Chairman, good morning and thank you for the presentation. I am Bill Dooks and I represent the Eastern Shore. I always take great interest in what is taking place on the beautiful Island of Cape Breton. Cape Breton has a history somewhat the same, or not the same as the Eastern Shore, but somewhat. I would consider the riding I represent to be economically oppressed. Regardless of the efforts, I am unable to bring opportunity, at this point, to the Eastern Shore. So I am happy to see that this money has been allocated for the growth of industry. I am a little confused, though, on the structure. Now we know the federal money is a great amount and then the province also contributed. Who initiated? Who went for the money? Who said, hey, we have a problem and indeed started to initiate this process of the money coming to the Growth Fund? Do you know that?
MR. BEATON: In terms of the initial $68 million?
MR. DOOKS: Yes. Number one, we know there is a problem. As I said, I share the same problem, and I say this with the greatest respect, but all of a sudden there is an announcement that $68 million is coming from Ottawa and so much is coming from the province. Obviously, someone must have initiated the lobbying process. There must have been a structure put in place. I don't think our good Prime Minister all of a sudden said, hey, Cape Breton needs $68 million or $100 million, whatever the case may be. That is what I am trying to pinpoint because obviously I tried to do the same. So if you could help me with that.
MR. BEATON: Well, those consultations actually took place before I got there. I arrived on November 1, 1999, so anything I would say would certainly just be assumptions on my part. If memory serves me correctly, in the 1960's, there were 15,000 people employed in the coal mines in Cape Breton. Through the downsizing, there was discussion that the Devco properties would be privatized in order to downsize, I believe it was 1,100 jobs. There was a decision by the federal government to allocate the $68 million for that significant downsizing and subsequent to that, when it was decided that successful conclusions with the private sector weren't going to happen, and the mines were going to be closed, they added the extra $18 million.
MR. DOOKS: So basically it was the shock of the decline of that particular industry that initiated this funding in aid.
MR. BEATON: That is exactly what happened. That is correct.
MR. DOOKS: Yes, indeed. This money is for all of Cape Breton and Mulgrave.
MR. BEATON: And Mulgrave, that is correct, yes.
MR. DOOKS: That is great. So it is not just, I guess, directed to one particular area.
MR. BEATON: That is correct.
MR. DOOKS: If someone in the area or in Cape Breton decided that they had a business idea, what would be their first step? Who would they approach to file for an application? Take me through the process of how one would be approved to start new industry or business.
MR. BEATON: Basically, they would submit an application along with a business plan to the Growth Fund.
MR. DOOKS: I am just going to stop you there because I am making some points here. So the question I am asking, sometimes some areas can be dead in spirit to try to create new business because they have tried, or their neighbour has tried, and it has failed. There just seems to be sometimes a cloud that would stop someone to getting new energy. So is there
a process, are there groups in place to motivate business at that very basic level? Hey, you know, there are monies available but we have to create new energy. You have to have think sessions, right at that bottom, grass-roots level where your next door neighbour could possibly think about a business and create new energy. So before you go on, I just wonder, are there programs at that level that would be associated with your lending institution?
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. BEATON: We would probably do it a little bit different in the sense that we would have itinerant services where we would go in the community and it would be available to meet with clients who had an idea and wanted to follow it up. There are various programs and services, we can help a client if they want to foster and look at an idea in more depth.
MR. DOOKS: But still someone would have to have the idea and contact you, the same as we would have through the province's Economic Development or RDAs. The person themselves would have to contact that . . .
MR. BEATON: Yes, but what we're hoping for in these task forces is that it will be much more specific and focused. As a result of that, you'll be able to identify policy, in a strategic direction, of the types of things you want to do.
MR. DOOKS: That's what I'm struggling with, and I think that's very important, that first initial approach or that contact, that that person, the constituent has an idea and that the first person they visit at least brings some excitement or some energy, to tell that person, well, this is a long path and you may not do it. That energy is necessary to rebuild the province, I know that for sure.
MR. BEATON: We do a lot of that with existing programs.
MR. DOOKS: Yes, that's good.
MR. BEATON: With ECBC and ACOA programming. When you are dealing with the Growth Fund, the projects have a tendency to be a little bit larger.
MR. DOOKS: Okay.
MR. BEATON: And it would probably be a more sophisticated clientele that you're dealing with, or applicant.
MR. DOOKS: So they decide to start a business, they fill out an application and they present it to you with a business plan.
MR. BEATON: Yes, then the due diligence will take place on that review. You look at everything from the individual and the background and experience that they have, the type of project they want to do, the financing they have in place, do they have sufficient equity in place, is it too capital intensive, do they have a marketing plan in place . . .
MR. DOOKS: So it would be an advantage for them to come to you rather than going to a financial institution? Would you be more . . .
MR. BEATON: With existing programs we can provide interest-free loans for up to a 10 year period, so it's much more attractive than a traditional bank. That's correct. We would do the due diligence on the file and make a determination after that, whether we are in a position to offer them assistance.
MR. DOOKS: Could a person go after $10,000 and also $10 million? There is no bottom and there's no top, as long as . . .
MR. BEATON: No bottom, no top, that's correct. It could be a $5,000 request.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dooks, one more question.
MR. DOOKS: One more question. That's unfortunate, maybe I could get a turn when it comes around. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, you understand my interest in this. How many applications do you receive, and how many have been denied? What is the percentage of approvals?
MR. BEATON: I think it's probably about - well, we do a lot of screening in advance of getting applications, making sure quality applications are received. With the Growth Fund, all projects go to the board for approval or rejection. There is no delegated authority to any staff. I think to date there has probably been about 10 applications, two have been rejected, if my memory stands me correct. You also have existing programs in place too. The bulk of the projects that will come across your desk in Cape Breton would fall under existing programs. This is really incremental. The other thing is we've engaged a prospector from the New England States to try to secure some leads to help us identify new opportunities as well.
MR. DOOKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will wait for another turnaround.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Downe.
MR. DONALD DOWNE: Thanks very much for your presentation this morning. I want to just build on what was already said. The dollars that were set up in the fund originally, there was a component federally and there was a component that was provincial. Has the provincial government contributed its portion of that fund yet?
MR. BEATON: Yes they have. They've provided . . .
MR. DOWNE: Twelve million dollars.
MR. BEATON: They are going to provide $3 million a year for four years, and to date they have provided $6 million to the fund.
MR. DOWNE: That would be their $12 million commitment.
MR. BEATON: That's correct.
MR. DOWNE: The fund also talks about, other than industrial Cape Breton, it's for the whole Island of Cape Breton.
MR. BEATON: That's correct.
MR. DOWNE: How many dollars have gone outside of industrial Cape Breton?
MR. BEATON: Just the EDS Centre in Port Hawkesbury so far.
MR. DOWNE: And there are no jobs created there yet.
MR. BEATON: I understand it's getting close.
MR. DOWNE: Getting close.
MR. BEATON: Yes. No money has gone out either, yet.
MR. DOWNE: I think Mr. Epstein was asking the question, if I heard it correctly, questioning the issue of export. If I understood correctly you are saying that a call-in centre is understood as an export industry. Is that because of . . .
MR. BEATON: It can be considered it because you are providing a service - in this case - to the U.S.
MR. DOWNE: So that is an export of intellectual property, really.
MR. BEATON: That's right.
MR. DOWNE: I see. So other than bricks and mortar, it is an intellectual property export that we are providing through that centre?
MR. BEATON: Yes.
MR. DOWNE: One of the other points I wanted to get into is tourism, gas and oil. We have the knowledge base which seems to be infrastructure, arts and culture, and environmental remediation. Has there been a lot of applications on any of these other fronts, I mean when you think about you're doing some studies and you are looking at - but from the private sector knocking on your door saying, hey, we have a great idea for tourism in Cape Breton or infrastructure in Cape Breton by the councils. I remember being there this last year and the community was interested in purchasing the wharf at the harbour, for example, in Sydney and they thought that would be a strategic investment for them. Would you be in a position to be able to provide funding for the CBRM?
MR. BEATON: Not that particular wharf when they were buying it because that was a property owned by Transport Canada . . .
MR. DOWNE: And that fund couldn't be used for that even though strategically they felt it was a very important initiative for them in the long term, with the offshore and other strategic things that could happen in that area; they felt that would be an economic driver for them.
MR. BEATON: Not since government would have been buying its own wharf.
MR. DOWNE: So has there been anybody else going at you on the issues in other areas other then the call centre facilities?
MR. BEATON: We have a solid lead on a major oil and gas project. We will be doing a request for proposals for the arts and culture sector prior to Christmas. We've been in discussion with several operators for major tourism projects for Cape Breton as well. There is interest in a possible supply base for Cape Breton for offshore oil and gas. All of these things take a minimum, normally, of 18 months, by the time you start consultations to the time you find out whether they are interested in coming and actually signing on the bottom line.
MR. DOWNE: Can you explain the due diligence process that you would go through in determining whether or not those investments are going to work out; value for money?
MR. BEATON: We have six chartered accountants on staff, so we are very well-positioned from the financial analysis end of it.
MR. DOWNE: They can look at the balance sheets but I mean from a strategic . . .
MR. BEATON: But we can also go out and buy the expertise in areas where we don't have it to ensure that it is a good project and makes sense for Cape Breton and will be there in the long term. The board is very much committed to doing projects that will be there for the long term. It is a difficult task at the best of times, as we all know, because Cape Breton, is doing it, Mainland Nova Scotia is doing it, and other regions of the country, and the United
States. You have to just do your job a little bit better than anybody else at times and you need a little luck from time to time, as well.
MR. DOWNE: You are located in Sydney?
MR. BEATON: That is correct.
MR. DOWNE: Who owns that building that you are in?
MR. BEATON: We rent from, I believe, Martin Chernin is one of the owners of the building. It is through the Laurentian Group, I believe, it is a holding company for properties.
MR. DOWNE: Who owns the Stream building?
MR. BEATON: That was Mr. Chernin and a group, I believe, own that one. That was owned by the former general mining partnership who didn't want to . . .
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Chernin must be a big property owner up there, is he?
MR. BEATON: I assume so.
MR. DOWNE: He owns all of the buildings that everyone is renting?
MR. BEATON: I think in this case here, the existing group who owned the general mining building wasn't interested in doing the major expansion and continuing to own it and as such, the building was accessed by Mr. Chernin and others. Quite frankly, it is a huge project for Glace Bay and we are very pleased that it is there.
MR. DOWNE: Yes, absolutely. The province's growth strategy gives special mention, provincially, to Cape Breton and the needs for the dollars and investments to be made in Cape Breton because of the crisis that is there. That must give you a better sense, those comments that are made in the province's growth strategy, is there any indication that Cape Breton is considered a special case by this provincial government with regard to unemployment and its problems relative to the rest of the province?
MR. BEATON: I think the province's commitment in the Growth Fund, the fact that they work very closely with us and are big supporters of what we do down there, and the joint sharing of information, I take that as very much a plus. It helps us do our job down there.
MR. CHAIRMAN: One more question.
MR. DOWNE: The Commerce Tower in Harbour Place that Martin Chernin owns I think . . .
MR. BEATON: Harbourfront Developments I think it's called.
MR. DOWNE: Yes. How much space is occupied by the provincial and federal governments in that building? Do you know?
MR. BEATON: For the Growth Fund office you mean?
MR. DOWNE: Yes.
MR. BEATON: It would be six offices, so there's probably about 1,000 square feet I would say, 1,100 square feet. That was existing space that Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation was the landlord in, and it was restructured. We use the same computer systems and everything. The fact that I'm also the CEO of the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation provides a fluid flow between the two floors.
MR. DOWNE: In closing, 900 jobs and the other jobs that are going to be created, it has to give some sense of hope for people who were feeling pretty frustrated the few times I was up at the closing of the mines, everything seemed to be closing down. I wish you good luck.
MR. BEATON: Thank you very much, I appreciate it, and we'll need it. My sense is that the mood is changing a bit. There is a long, long way to go. The numbers last month from Stats Canada seemed to indicate the lowest numbers in 10 years, and I'm trying to sort out where those are coming from, and hopefully they'll show up for two or three months in a row.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Corbett.
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Thank you for joining us. The people, including yourself, who are on the board, and you mention it in your brief that they were former Cape Bretoners. On the advisory board, again I look at the names. This Growth Fund was created because of the federal government's retreat from coal mining.
MR. BEATON: That's correct.
MR. CORBETT: Yet there is not one person on this board or on the advisory board who is from the areas most greatly affected by the federal government getting out of coal mining. Why is that?
MR. BEATON: We do also have, with Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation, $10 million for affected mining communities. There will be representation from those areas on how that $10 million will be spent, Mr. Corbett.
MR. CORBETT: That still doesn't answer my question. I noticed in your presentation, you made specific note that these were former Cape Bretoners. In watching the government get out of coal mining, one of the loudest things we heard from the management of that company was that coal mining failed primarily because of the workforce that was not fully involved in that industry that wouldn't show up. One can only take away from that that it was blaming the workforce. We are not inviting Cape Bretoners who have been affected to the renewal of the economy. We are again asking people, by and large, from outside the area to help effect the turnaround of the economy. Why is that?
MR. BEATON: The only thing I can say to that, Mr. Corbett, is those are Order in Council appointments by Privy Council Office. I didn't have any direct involvement in who the names were.
MR. CORBETT: At one point you mentioned . . .
MR. BEATON: In terms of the board themselves.
MR. CORBETT: . . . about the $10 million. On Page 11 of your document you talked about the original $80 million fund. You have a May 2001 additional commitment of $18 million.
[9:45 a.m.]
It has been my position - and I don't apologize for this - that that money came to Cape Breton because of the closure of the Cape Breton Development Corporation and the federal government getting out of coal mining. Yet when they reinvested, they used the same blueprint, if you will, as ECBC had and that is from Mulgrave up. Yet they took more money out of the economy than they are putting in, when they retreated from Devco.
In their May 2001 announcement they specifically said that $18 million was to be invested in areas directly affected by the closure of the Cape Breton Development Corporation. I see you have that lumped in with the $80 million for the $98 million.
MR. BEATON: There is another $10 million there too, sir. That $10 million is for the affected mining communities only. It is in a separate pot and that can't be transferred to any other program.
MR. CORBETT: Where does that show up?
MR. BEATON: That is in ECBC.
MR. CORBETT: In ECBC, so it is . . .
MR. BEATON: It is a $10 million pot for Glace Bay, New Waterford, Bras d'Or, Sydney Mines, North Sydney area, Donkin, Dominion and those kinds of places.
MR. CORBETT: . . . not to take the words from my friend from the Eastern Shore but it is kind of confusing. If you are a person fresh out of the coal mines trying to start a business, it isn't making it all that easy for people to access money because it is like oh, let's spin the big wheel and see which fund you fall under.
MR. BEATON: I think there are traditional programs that are there through ACOA and ECBC that take care of the vast majority of projects that are done in Cape Breton. We don't do retail, we don't do general commercial, so those kinds of things don't fall under any government programs I am aware of today. The $10 million fund for the affected mining communities is primarily for infrastructure, to improve the communities and put them in a better position to attract new private sector investment at some point in the future.
MR. CORBETT: When the Growth Fund was started up and you hired employees, were those jobs advertised?
MR. BEATON: Those were all existing staff.
MR. CORBETT: Every one?
MR. BEATON: One was seconded from ECBC, one was seconded from Human Resources Development Canada, one was seconded from the province.
MR. CORBETT: So the seven jobs you talked about, none of them are newly hired. They are all secondments or . . .
MR. BEATON: There was Doug Arnold, who was newly hired for communications.
MR. CORBETT: Was that advertised?
MR. BEATON: I am trying to think. I don't believe it was.
MR. CORBETT: Where I am going with this, Mr. Beaton, is we are talking about a fund to help employ or re-employ people who may have been affected by the closure of the Cape Breton Development Corporation, yet we come to hiring and the group that is supposed to be there to help this really hasn't hired, you know, at ground level where it can show some substantive leadership, they didn't do it. Is that accurate?
MR. BEATON: No, I wouldn't say that is accurate. Have we been primarily concentrating on affected coal miners? No, as I indicated earlier on, we were concentrating on short-term job creation and now we are into the medium- and long-term, hopefully
through oil and gas and other kinds of industries that will be created in the future. Affected miners may have opportunities in these areas.
MR. CORBETT: Are you saying that the call centre is considered short term?
MR. BEATON: No. I am saying that there is a certain niche in your labour pool that fill those bills very well. While the wages aren't comparable to what a miner's job would be, it is attractive to some members of the labour pool. There are about 2,400 positions that have been announced in that area. Now we are going to start concentrating on higher-end jobs and the medium- and the long-term employment that will have enhanced salaries and benefits to Cape Breton.
MR. CORBETT: I want to get back then to when they had the group travel around Cape Breton looking for input and all of that. Certainly it was my position and my Party's position that that money was - we said - to be basically invested in industrial Cape Breton because it has been said that that investment would not supplant any other monies, or take away from any other monies that ECBC would have to invest in areas. So fundamentally, these economies haven't changed that much, where there was a big change in the economy of industrial Cape Breton, with the withdrawal of Devco and indeed now, with the other knockout blow of Sysco.
I still have a hard time seeing how a job in Mulgrave is going to replace - with all due respect to the people of Mulgrave - or help anybody who was laid off at Devco. Could you explain that to me?
MR. BEATON: All I can say, sir, is there was a decision made when the funding was announced that it would be made available all across Cape Breton and Mulgrave. That was a decision that was made as a result of the consultation process, the follow up, and the report. I think it was growing a new economy document.
MR. CORBETT: You have a wealth of experience in economic development and I am asking for your expertise in this because I don't understand it. Is it just government says so and therefore we do it, or is there a practical community economic development strategy here that we will be - beyond the ears of us politicians - able to realize? Is there something I am missing here, I guess is what I am asking you, as someone who has had considerable experience in this area?
MR. BEATON: As to why it should be . . .
MR. CORBETT: So wide?
MR. BEATON: I think if you narrow it down you may miss some opportunities that are available in other parts of Cape Breton. The Strait has excellent potential, as we all know,
and a deep port offers petroleum processing to other kinds of industry there. If statistics prove out as they have in other programming, the bulk of the money will likely be spent in CBRM anyway, that is traditionally what the experience has been.
MR. CORBETT: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Could I ask if RDAs play a role, particularly CEDA and there is one in the Strait area? Do they play a role?
MR. BEATON: CBCEDA and the Strait-Highlands RDA?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. BEATON: CBCEDA certainly plays a significant role and they are working with us now in terms of community revitalization of plans for Sydney and Glace Bay and working other initiatives as well. I think right now they are looking for a new executive director for the Strait-Highlands RDA and I think they have significant opportunity to play a key role in the development of that area.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So they do play a key role as advisors or . . .
MR. BEATON: As kind of a grassroots community, people working with a number of communities and organizations, yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you regard an RDA as an important tool to the community?
MR. BEATON: I think depending on how you work with them, they can be a very important tool.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Cape Breton is unique, of course, because of the difficulty in creating jobs. What is your opinion why Cape Breton is so unique when it comes to the difficulty in creating jobs?
MR. BEATON: Well it is certainly not from lack of a skilled labour pool. We did a skill survey, particularly in CBRM, which showed the level of education and training of the workforce there was very high. I think part of it has to do with a kind of image, or impressions that outside industry and others have on Cape Breton. I don't know whether this goes back to former days of mining or steel but there is a little bit of apprehension of certain clients looking at Cape Breton, in terms of whether it is a stable workforce. We know that is the case because when you look at the statistics, the number of strike days lost in Cape Breton was lower than the national average. But there is no appearance outside the region that that is not the case. That has been one of the toughest uphill battles we have to fight and we have to be able to show and promote the image of Cape Breton as a real solid place to
come and do business. With each one of the firms that has located in the last year, the thing they rave about the most is the quality of the workforce. So I think with more success stories like that, that will eventually change but it is going to take a little time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chisholm.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Rick, thank you very much for your presentation. The five priority sectors that were identified - tourism, arts and culture, and so on - are there subcommittees set up for those sectors within the board structure?
MR. BEATON: Would you repeat the question, please?
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: The five priorities that were identified, are there subcommittees of the board set up for those five . . .
MR. BEATON: Yes, there is, Mr. Chisholm. There are five task forces.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Okay, are there local Cape Bretoners or local people who are involved in those sectors?
MR. BEATON: Yes.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: So they are from the Island. I believe Bob MacEachern might be one of those guys from the Strait area or he was on the . . .
MR. BEATON: Bob MacEachern is on the knowledge-based. He co-chairs the knowledge-based. We have Paul Crissman from the Strait who chairs the oil and gas. So it is a cross-section of people from right around the Island.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: But there are subcommittees set up for those.
MR. BEATON: And they actually help shape and they do the terms of reference up and do the call for proposals in terms of getting the strategic vision documents where we want to go in those sectors.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: So they would advise the board of directors to . . .
MR. BEATON: That is correct.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: The issue with Cape Breton-Mulgrave, you say, was the mandate for the Growth Fund. What about the Milford Land Reserve?
MR. BEATON: Milford Land Reserve as well, yes.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: That is part of your mandate, as well?
MR. BEATON: That is correct.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: The same as Enterprise Cape Breton would?
MR. BEATON: That is correct.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: That is good then. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: Mr. Chairman, maybe I can go back to a couple of points that I don't think have been covered yet. On Page 4 of the slides for today, the overheads, one of the things you say is that the corporation will cease to exist when it has fully committed its funds.
MR. BEATON: Yes.
MR. EPSTEIN: But of course that seems to be happening fairly rapidly and it seems to me that that could happen within probably a three year period even. So what I wonder is, who will be in place after that to monitor the returns on the investment? Where does responsibility move after that?
MR. BEATON: Responsibility moves to Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation and any money that would be coming back to the province would be returned over the course of time. For example, if we have repayable contributions, the money was coming back to the province, I would expect the province would want to get their money back when that happened.
MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, so who in the province would be responsible there? That would be what, the Department of Economic Development?
MR. BEATON: Department of Economic Development, that is correct.
MR. EPSTEIN: So there will be an agency in place to follow up afterwards.
MR. BEATON: That's right. Everything reverts into ECBC, the debts and liabilities.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, that's fine. Thank you.
In terms of the immediacy of a need for job creation, which you emphasized in your initial answers to me, I wonder if you know anything or if it is known at all, whether any of the people displaced, either from Sysco or from the Devco operations, have been able to find
any of the jobs so far that have been created under the Growth Fund's investment so far? Is there any tracking of the individuals?
MR. BEATON: No tracking, sir. There are a few but they are very few. As indicated earlier, the wage scale that the customer interaction centre pays is significantly lower than somebody in the coal industry would have been used to making. So we are hopeful to develop one of the oil and gas projects and other areas that we will have job opportunities for these people in the next year and a half to two years.
MR. EPSTEIN: So there is no exact tracking but your impression is that it is, in fact, relatively few so far.
MR. BEATON: Yes, that would be my impression.
MR. EPSTEIN: So who are the people who have been hired for these call centre jobs? Are they, for example, brand new graduates from high school, are they people who have lost jobs in other sectors of the economy?
MR. BEATON: There has been a bit of a ripple effect. It is a combination of all those things. It is a combination of students who are going to school, some students have graduated from courses at Marconi Campus, for example. They could have been unemployed people, they could have been spouses who decided to return to the workforce who weren't in the workforce at that time; it is a combination of all of those.
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. EPSTEIN: One of the things that is striking about the money that has been committed so far is that it seems to have been committed - at least for a few of them - in fairly large chunks. I mean $7 million, $10 million, and $5 million, these are big amounts of money when your total pot is $98 million. I wonder if this represents part of the thinking of the Growth Fund. Is it your intention to look at large amounts in terms of the investments or is it your expectation - and I know this is a theory you answered to Mr. Dooks, that it could be a small amount - that it will fluctuate or are you thinking it's large investments primarily?
MR. BEATON: I think it depends on the sector you are referring to. I think arts and culture will be fairly small. To get into oil and gas, that could be very large. Knowledge base could be smaller. It crosses - it's very difficult to give you one answer for all the sectors. I think there will be a fairly broad scope of project size and assistance will, for the most part, in sectors, be certainly over $1million, I think.
MR. EPSTEIN: On Page 20 of the submission there are certain objectives listed and they have to do with trade, industrial benefits, R&D, access to capital, and so on. Again I am wondering to what extent there has been any return on that - leaving aside the discussion
about what is and what isn't trade, and I have to say I do take your point about intellectual property, depending on where the buildings are that might be a fair point - but industrial benefits, so far . . .
MR. BEATON: Industrial benefits, we are looking at that - as I indicated earlier - primarily from the environmental remediation of the tar ponds, the cleaning of the mine sites, and we are trying to put a strategy in place which we would be glad to get back to this committee on at a future date. So how we can maximize a small industry down there from 300 to 500 people, in remediation so at the end of the period, when the tar ponds is actually remediated, there is a skilled set of individuals who can then export that service elsewhere.
MR. EPSTEIN: So in terms of the other objectives, is it fair to say that the money that has been invested so far in call centres, the only objective, I guess that really relates, would be direct investment, in a sense that there is direct investment coming from the owners of these companies?
MR. BEATON: That's right.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chataway.
MR. JOHN CHATAWAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning. I very much appreciated the talk that you have given. One of the things that certainly impresses me is the Cape Breton Growth Fund indeed has their six criteria and that you are developing subcommittees to further explore this. I think that is very wonderful and possibly some people around this table know more than I do, but I have a question I would like more information on. Could you briefly further explain what oil and gas development has been done so far?
MR. BEATON: There have been no oil and gas projects approved at this point in time. We do have one we are evaluating now. We will probably have a decision on that some time in the next six weeks. Right now we are concentrating on identifying both the Strait of Canso and Sydney Harbour as to say what makes sense, where does fabrication go. Is that best suited in Sydney, for example? Where would a supply base best be suited? Where does petroleum processing fit? So when we go on trade shows and are trying to attract investment, we are being very strategic and focused on what we are going after, rather than trying to go after everything. I don't think that works or is an effective use of time and money, in terms of being very specific on what you are going after and see the strengths and weaknesses of each port.
MR. CHATAWAY: I assume the business itself - they're talking, right now they are debating with Newfoundland - about where the boundary is and things like that. I presume you do not have any investment in that.
MR. BEATON: No.
MR. CHATAWAY: The other thing is I do know off some of Cape Breton's coast, fishermen are a bit concerned about doing that. Do you have any knowledge of that or what is going on?
MR. BEATON: No, other than I follow what Dr. Theresa MacNeil is doing, in terms of her review on the onshore fishery - I think she is presenting a paper to government at the end of March - we are watching that with interest just because that may or may not have impact in terms of onshore development, but in terms of why things haven't maybe happened quicker in Cape Breton. Obviously, I think the slowness in getting a decision on the Laurentian boundary has probably had a negative impact on Cape Breton for attracting oil and gas investment there.
MR. CHATAWAY: Well again, I am not necessarily an expert but I do understand the provincial government is saying, if the Newfoundland Government is saying this and the Nova Scotia Government is saying that but basically, there is natural gas there and should just come forth and then if it is developed we can decide later, when decisions have been made on who gets what share and things like that but it is very, very important. Certainly as a Growth Fund it is going to be important for all Nova Scotia and especially for Cape Breton, as well. It seems to me you are talking about the production facilities where the natural gas comes in and you deal with this port or that port or what facilities you have and this . . .
MR. BEATON: Or if you get into pipe manufacturing, where is it best done? If you are getting into other kinds of fabrication, lay down areas, and those kinds of things, the auxiliary benefits that are attached to oil and gas. We should be in position to play a significant role in that regard.
MR. CHATAWAY: Certainly it should, exactly. Another change of subject somewhat, the Cape Breton Growth Fund has basically been brought together by the federal and provincial governments, in order to deal with abandonment of the coal industry and things like that. Basically, you are formed for so many years, four years, I understand. Do you encourage some group or business where say, four years comes and goes and that you have long-term commitments beyond that, how would that be handled?
MR. BEATON: With the long-term commitments, in terms of financial obligations, those would be transferred to Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation who would then finish paying out the balance of the files, or recover whatever funding was owed back to both the Government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia.
MR. CHATAWAY: So there is no real problem?
MR. BEATON: No problem there at all.
MR. CHATAWAY: You talked about ECBC and so, they are doing something, you are doing something and there is enough talk between you to make sure you are not doing the same job?
MR. BEATON: Yes and wearing two hats, one with each corporation. We are on top of it fairly well.
MR. CHATAWAY: Thank you.
MR. BEATON: The one thing about the fund I will add for the committee here today, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that the board is very careful. We want to spend the money wisely and want it committed to long-term, sustainable projects that will make a difference. The first year I think about 20 per cent of the money was committed but they are not willing to just throw it at any project, just to get the money committed. I compliment my board for that, they are being very business-oriented, in terms of how they commit the funds. I think that augers well for Cape Breton because when we did the consultation process people said well, this is our last chance, let's make sure we get good return on this fund.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Beaton and Mr. Chataway, thank you. I appreciate you keeping your questions within the limit. Mr. Chipman.
MR. FRANK CHIPMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your presentation today. I was just reading an article from The Chronicle Herald, August 31st. There is a statement there by NDP member Michelle Dockrill, and she was highly critical that Enterprise Cape Breton have control of the money. She says: I have no faith that this will be a legitimate effort to help Cape Bretoners, she said in an interview, I think this is laughable. Who is going to have the last laugh here?
MR. BEATON: I think the first year has been an excellent year. I think history will prove it will be successful. You have a very good board that is committed to doing good projects and if it means we reject more than we approve, then so be it. But there will be good projects, there will be lasting projects and I think at the end of the day this is a very unique model - there is nothing like it here in Canada from the task forces and the involvement of the community and private sector. I think it will get a very good bill at the end of the day, that would be my opinion.
MR. CHIPMAN: So you have a very positive feeling about this?
MR. BEATON: A very positive feeling, yes.
MR. CHIPMAN: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Corbett
MR. CORBETT: Just to finish up on my first round of questions, Mr. Beaton, you keep saying community involvement and I try to highlight to you that I live in that community, I don't feel involved with it. My neighbours don't feel involved with it but for some reason, you think that is driven there. I have a perspective on it that there has been maybe a bureaucratic sense that there is community involvement but when I talk to people, that is not the sense I'm rolling back. Trust me on this, it is not a partisan, political point of view, as much as it is from someone who lives there.
We have seen government initiatives come and go in Cape Breton for as long as I can remember. I remember when private sector got out of coal mining. I remember the initial Devco start-up and so on. My dad was a coal miner for 47 years, so I have been around the edge of that industry a great part of my life. But when we come and see these involvements and I ask you questions like who was hired by the Growth Fund and you say, it was taken from within or the one person who was hired, there was no advertisement and the board of directors was an OIC, how can the people of that community be reassured that this just isn't another form of patronage, that it is going to work this time?
MR. BEATON: Patronage doesn't play any role in the expenditure of funds under the Growth Fund, I can certainly guarantee you that. This is based on good, solid projects. I would be most willing to sit down with you or any member of the group here today, in terms of hearing your thoughts and views on how we can make it better. We have only been in business better than a year and hopefully we are going to change and improve as we need to, as we go along. That is not to say if there is something today we can't tweak it a bit to make it better, so I certainly would welcome any comments you may have on making it a better organization.
MR. CORBETT: I appreciate that. The whole lack of involvement of people who have been economically and directly affected by this bothers me. Should this whole board be made up of ex-coal miners? Absolutely not. Should the board be made up of all Cape Bretoners? Absolutely not. I think you need outside perspective. You need people who have been successful in other areas. Plus, I think you need someone who can tell you some of the foibles from the past. I wonder because of pressure from somewhere that those people didn't show up? That bothers me and maybe at some other time I will take you up on your offer and we can sit down.
You have a unique job because you have the Growth Fund and ECBC. So if it is not fair tell me but I want to ask you, when you are looking at these - and I know you are not the guy at the end who says, okay this project goes ahead, you don't write the cheque but certainly you have input because you have an ECBC perspective and a Growth Fund perspective - you folks talked about cutting up the pie and saying okay, if we are going to do any heavy industrial stuff, maybe we will look at focusing on the wharf areas and the land owned by the Laurentian group or something like that and then we will take the New Waterford area and that becomes not an industrial area, but we will look at it as the bedroom
community for people to go. Is that under both your umbrellas, I guess? Is there a strategy for that?
[10:15 a.m.]
MR. BEATON: We are trying to come up with those strategies now, Mr. Corbett, in terms of where we are going. Those should be done before the end of March for all the sectors and we should have a very clear focus starting out the 2002-03 fiscal year and start getting into detailed projects on what should be done. Before those are done, we really haven't had that strategic focus and vision that we need to go forward. This is where the representation from the community and the businesses, who participated on the task force, is really helping us focus on where the Growth Fund money should be spent.
MR. CORBETT: You know we saw the initiative on the renewal of the downtown areas of Glace Bay and Sydney and yet, I am being a real hometown boy asking this question, I don't think there was another town more directly affected by the closure than New Waterford. That is where the two large mines closed in the last five years and they have seen that. Why don't we see those same types of initiatives going forward in those areas, than in an area of Sydney that hasn't been affected directly by coal mine closures?
MR. BEATON: In actual fact we have a focus group session planned for December 15th in New Waterford to talk about if you have, for example, $3 million from the Community Adjustment Fund, what would you do with it in your community and what types of projects do you feel are important. I think it is okay when government goes in and says, this is what you should do but we are looking for some leadership from the community saying, if there was money, this is what we would like to do in terms of enhancing our community.
MR. CORBETT: How closely are you working with the group, New Era?
MR. BEATON: Very closely. We have a person out there two days a week and have assigned a person, full-time on the adjustment file, Mr. Archie Gallagher, so very closely.
MR. CORBETT: To put this delicately, do you know if New Era is pursuing, with your co-operation, any of the assets of the former Cape Breton Development Corporation?
MR. BEATON: There has been some discussion about their interest in acquiring some of the assets of Devco, yes. I have had discussions with some senior officials at Devco as well, saying you have assets and once they become empty, is there interest in making those available for economic development purposes?
MR. CORBETT: I think with the conditions of some of our highways in Cape Breton, a major piece of infrastructure that could be left behind by Devco is the railway because it does branch into many of the areas. I know the provincial government's Department of Economic Development has been studying the impact of, in particular, the Sydney Steel closure and the impact of the rail line coming into industrial Cape Breton. Have you folks been playing any role in that?
MR. BEATON: We have been working with the Department of Economic Development on the cost-sharing of the work they are doing to ensure that every stone is turned over to keep that rail line operating in Cape Breton and looking at what opportunities are there that are not being capitalized on and seeing how government can help in ensuring that line continues.
MR. CORBETT: Again, we have one of the better maintained railways in industrial Cape Breton, that goes right through the Town of New Waterford, it is a piece of the Devco infrastructure. It is used extensively now by Nova Scotia Power to transport coal to their site and by and large it goes through the large industrial sites, which were the Lingan Mine and Phelan Mine. That is where I am going in my line of questioning, is that forming any part of your discussions with the province and with the owners of the railway about the possibility of making sure that stays there?
MR. BEATON: I haven't been directly involved in those discussions but I understand there have been discussions on the overall aspect of including the Devco line as well, but I don't think anything has materialized today.
MR. CORBETT: This goes back to your positions with ECBC and the Growth Fund. Are we seeing people who would ordinarily - say one of the call centres - come to the Growth Fund instead of going to ECBC? I notice like one of them have $10 million from the Growth Fund but nothing from ECBC. Is that because of any particular reason? Could you explain that to me?
MR. BEATON: The ECBC has a grants and contributions budget of roughly $7 million a year. At the time that this decision was made, we didn't feel that the ECBC would have any money to put into that project but it is not to say the next project they won't have money in it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chipman.
MR. CHIPMAN: How would you envision Cape Breton's economy today if the course of direction had not been changed through the creation of the Cape Breton Growth Fund Corporation; in other words, if you had stayed on course with Devco and coal?
MR. BEATON: If you had stayed on course with Devco and coal, that is a tough question. I am not sure there is an answer there other than it would be mere speculation.
MR. CHIPMAN: It certainly wouldn't be as positive.
MR. BEATON: Well, you have to remember that mining jobs paid very well. What we have managed to do so far, those jobs don't pay them, they are not in the same bracket. It is kind of a change in culture. I couldn't crystal-ball it to give you a fair answer that I would . . .
MR. CHIPMAN: Some of these mines had only, what, 15 years of coal production left?
MR. BEATON: You hear all kinds of different stories that there are lots of laces with lots of coal, so it is something, because ECBC and the Growth Fund have no mandate to look at coal. It is one thing I purposely didn't get involved in, to be honest with you. So I am not as up-to-speed maybe as I should be in that regard.
MR. CHIPMAN: I guess what I am saying, I am trying to put this in a positive light, that if you had stayed on course, you probably wouldn't be looking at the job creation you have had since.
MR. BEATON: No, that is fair. I think the economy that you are going to have in five to 10 years is certainly not the economy that you had either. I think it is changed forever and I think there are very positive signs that it will be a good economy in Cape Breton in the next five to 10 year period. There is interest. There are people calling and I see a positive future for Cape Breton and the unique partnership with the Province of Nova Scotia and the federal government, I think, only helps that process.
MR. CHIPMAN: Great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hendsbee.
MR. DAVID HENDSBEE: Thank you. For the record, I am David Hendsbee for the constituency of Preston. Hello, Mr. Beaton and Ms. MacMullin. I am sorry I missed your presentation. I was a last minute substitution for Mr. Taylor but I do have some questions over viewing your material and stuff. I see that you established partnerships with Enterprise Cape Breton, HRDC, the Province of Nova Scotia, as well as with the municipalities and with Cape Breton. I am assuming you still work with ACOA and you also have the community
college and perhaps other organizations, community groups or community funds. Can you tell me how much of a challenge it is to try to bring that network together to work co-operatively on particular proposals or projects and how do you get rid of the confusion of overlap with jurisdictions?
MR. BEATON: Okay, Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation does deliver all ACOA programming on Cape Breton Island. So we are on top of that. We deliver that on Cape Breton so it eliminates going to two doors there. ECBC also does the due diligence on the file for the Growth Fund so we kept our Growth Fund staff very small, down to six. We work closely with the Nova Scotia Community Colleges and the University College of Cape Breton. With the Growth Fund office we have the Province of Nova Scotia there as a partner as well as Human Resources Development Canada and ECBC. So it is a seamless one-stop shopping. It is quite advantageous to the client.
MR. HENDSBEE: In regard to your name, the Cape Breton Growth Fund Corporation, to me it sounds almost like one of those RSP investments, like a growth fund and stuff like that. You would almost think that a person would be able to have an opportunity to buy into it and stuff. Are there any particular plans for an establishment of an entrepreneurial or a venture capital pool of money to be used as Nova Scotia equity tax credit opportunities for investments in Cape Breton?
MR. BEATON: Small community groups are looking at those, sir, but nothing from the Growth Fund perspective. We can't take an equity position on any project, if that was the best position to take.
MR. HENDSBEE: Well, what about the establishment of venture capital pools. Sometimes it has to take some resources of pooling that kind of capital money together and I think in your capacity you may have an opportunity to leverage those kinds of funds together.
MR. BEATON: We've talked about it but we haven't followed it up. Do you mean with chartered banks and others?
MR. HENDSBEE: Yes.
MR. BEATON: Yes. We've talked about it but we haven't gotten there yet.
MR. HENDSBEE: I also understand there's COIN, Canadian Opportunities Investment Network, that's another one that's across the country that is trying to look at venture capital pools. I wasn't sure if you had any affiliation with COIN or not?
MR. BEATON: No affiliation with those at all, sir, no.
MR. HENDSBEE: My last two questions would be, in regard to Father MacLeod and his works with New Dawn Enterprises, New Beginnings and New Era, do you think there are going to be more opportunities for more of those community growth fund projects of that sort? And what participation do you anticipate you may have or not have in that?
MR. BEATON: I think the New Dawn has been very successful in terms of what they've done, and we don't provide them with any money other than on a project-by-project basis. Are you referring to the BCA, which Father MacLeod is involved in?
MR. HENDSBEE: The BCA, yes.
MR. BEATON: I think that's been quite successful to date. I think there is a group in the Isle Madame area that is looking to do something similar. I think you will see maybe one or two others sprout up across Cape Breton Island. What role ECBC or the Growth Fund will play, we'll see at that time. I am not sure what it would be at this point in time, sir.
MR. HENDSBEE: My last question would be, if someone had a particular proposal or project they wished to bring forth to Cape Breton, whose door should they knock on first? There are so many doors to knock on in regard to . . .
MR. BEATON: If you go through the Growth Fund door, you have an ECBC person there, they know their programs, they know the ACOA programs, they know the Growth Fund programs, you have HRDC and you have the Province of Nova Scotia rep. Those three individuals can sit down very quickly with any client, and that's what we do when we have a client come in, we pull all the appropriate players together to see who can play in the project and start working on a team approach from that point on.
MR. HENDSBEE: Do you have any opinion on what should be done with the Sysco wharf and cranes, in regard to its ownership status?
MR. BEATON: I think it should be looked at very carefully to make sure that the economic benefits are maximized to all of Cape Breton County.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dooks.
MR. DOOKS: I thank you for coming in today, once again, and wish you all the success in the world that I am sure you will achieve. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to talk about a comment that you made, stating that the situation in Cape Breton was unique to the Island. That's not quite true, and I just wanted to clarify that. There are other parts of Nova Scotia that are certainly oppressed economically.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for that, Mr. Dooks. I recognize, of course, that there are many areas in Nova Scotia that are unique when it comes to job development. We are going into short questions, and I am going to allow two questions from each. Mr. Downe, you're first.
MR. DOWNE: My colleague here touched on the rail. The day you lose the rail service from Cape Breton is the day you're going to have a really tough job ever creating economic activity on the Island, other than maybe in the area of tourism or call centres. It's a hugely important initiative for industrial development and export, other than the intellectual export that you referred to earlier. There are manufacturers up there who are scared to death about the loss of that rail. Can you explain to me what specific measures you or your different organizations are prepared to do to make sure that rail continues, and what is the province doing to ensure that that lifeline of opportunity stays in Cape Breton?
MR. BEATON: I really can't speak for the province, other than our affiliation . . .
MR. DOWNE: No, but you're working very closely with the province on these initiatives.
MR. BEATON: The province certainly should get significant credit for taking the lead and doing a business model for casting of what tonnage is available to be hauled on that line and other research. I think they are to be commended for that, quite frankly. I agree with you, the day the first piece of rail comes up it's going to make it very difficult for economic development in Cape Breton County. What can you do? There is a whole lot of reluctance to get into core funding from an operational standpoint. We have to find other alternatives that make sense and can keep the line open.
[10:30 a.m.]
MR. DOWNE: Are you telling me that your organization, ECBC, and all the other ones, you must have sat down and talked about this strategically, the broad issue of the Island's success and what are the pillars for which that success will be based on. Some of that will be culture and some of that will be tourism, and so on. Transportation has to be a key one. At what point have your conversations around the table - because there is HRDC at your table, there's the province, everybody's at your table - talking about the key initiatives to drive the economy in Cape Breton, you take the rail out and you are in serious trouble.
I haven't heard anything specific here, but I would like to know, specifically, if you can tell us, how far are you prepared to go or how far are the organizations at the table at this point prepared to go to retain and maintain that rail?
MR. BEATON: There was a business model that was done that indicated that there should be sufficient quantities to be carried on the line. There are other things that are happening now with properties at the Sysco site and at the Devco site that haven't been firmed up yet, to my understanding, that could have a big impact as well. I think we're probably a couple of weeks away from sitting down and having that big, detailed discussion that you're referring to and saying, what are all the options and what are our positions on these, quite frankly.
MR. DOWNE: The last question, money is important, tax credits was an issue that was brought up time and time again, about Cape Breton. Developing a tax structure, a made-in-Cape Breton tax structure or a made-in-Nova Scotia tax structure with my colleague from the Eastern Shore who has a depressed area that needs economic development, should the province be moving for tax initiatives, credits for areas not only in industrial Cape Breton, not only in Cape Breton, but on the Eastern Shore and other areas of this province and maybe in parts of Preston, or parts of other areas that need help to actually be able to drive the economy in those areas? How do you feel about that?
MR. BEATON: I think there are a number of options that could be held. You have duty-free zones, you have tax shelters, you have some incentives. I remember the days when enhanced incentives were given out by predecessors to ACOA and others, saying if you locate in this area you get a 40 per cent tax credit vis-à-vis going here you get a 15 per cent tax credit. It didn't work all that well. I agree that Cape Breton has its own situation, but there are other regions of Nova Scotia that have similar problems.
MR. DOWNE: One more question, a person unemployed anywhere in this province hurts.
MR. BEATON: It hurts badly.
MR. DOWNE: Any community that has large unemployment hurts big time. I am just saying, as a province, provisions for tax incentives with some hooks in that initiative for economic development, like sustainable development, the tax credit measures was certainly brought forward here from people in Cape Breton saying that would work in other areas of the province as well as Cape Breton, and it's a good initiative.
MR. BEATON: I think there was some research done after tax credits were given out by Enterprise Cape Breton, a predecessor to ECBC, back in 1984 to 1986. I'm not up to speed on what that said, but I could try to get a copy of that and circulate it to the board.
MR. DOWNE: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Downe. Mr. Hendsbee.
MR. HENDSBEE: To follow up on the heels of the questions from the honourable member for Lunenburg West in regard to tax credits and things like that, we have payroll tax credits and rebates, we have equity tax credits for investment funds, but recently we just heard in the news about P.E.I. having some tax-free zones. With P.E.I. not being a partner with the harmonized sales tax agreement with New Brunswick, Newfoundland and us, what opportunities are there for us to look at that issue of tax-free zones for development purposes?
MR. BEATON: That's something we certainly haven't considered as part of our mandate, to be honest with you. The tax-free zone that P.E.I. has, if my memory stands me correct, is related to Slemon Park, which has been fairly successful. There are other similar opportunities that could be done elsewhere, I am sure there are, in certain areas of any province.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Hendsbee. Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: Since we are rather pressed for time at this point in the meeting, maybe I'll make a couple of comments and see if you have any reaction. Primarily I want to get these on the record. The first has to do with the displaced workforce in the traditional industrial Cape Breton area, people who have lost jobs in mining or at Sysco.
About a decade ago the B.C. Energy Council did a study of what was the potential for matching people who had lost jobs in traditional energy industries for moving into new energy industries. They found that there was, in fact, enormous potential because of the kind of job skills that people had. So the idea of losing work in coal mining - and they do coal mining in B.C. and they use it for generating electricity, along with other things - they said was enormous to move over to things like wind power and wind farms. Now we know there is significant interest in wind farms now, and this is a perfectly good example where the job skills that people have used in those older industries are translatable into the new energy industries, to which I would add that methane extraction, aquaculture, transportation - including rail and port as well - are also possibilities.
So far I have mostly heard of the possibility of moving people into site remediation.
Now maybe this is mostly Sysco people rather than Devco people, but my main point is I don't think these people should be written off. I hope that as you think about what it is the Growth Fund can do, you pay attention to this particular group of people. So I throw that out for you and if you want the reference to the study, leave me a business card and I will send you a reference to the study.
My second point is this. As I look at what it is that has happened so far, what worries me is there is a limited amount of money, it is going very rapidly - as you pointed out, 20 per cent of the money has been committed already in a relatively few enterprises, really all except one small one, call centres. So far in terms of the topic areas - that is the priority topic areas,
in terms of the long-term objectives in trade and R&D and so on - very little is really present there, as represented so far.
Now I understand that the idea is that with a massive loss of jobs there was an immediate need to replace them with some other jobs, perhaps even no matter what and I can understand that. But as a strategy, in terms of what your overall mandate is to create, it is to create long-lasting, sustainable jobs - it clearly won't do. Something has to happen with the balance of the money, with the $70 million or so that is left. It really has to branch out into those other categories, which seem to me to be appropriate categories, with an eye to promoting more R&D, more industrial benefits, more real trade. That seems to me to be really crucial and as you suggested yourself, this is the last chance in terms of significant access to any government investment to try to stimulate the economy in Cape Breton, as an offset for losses of jobs that have taken place so far.
It is really worrisome if this doesn't happen and so far I have to say I haven't heard, and haven't become aware of, any initiatives that are coming along that are going to fill that criteria that have sensibly been identified. The evidence, so far, isn't there, in terms of the first year or year and a half of operation, I understand things might start slowly and I understand the idea of an immediate injection of jobs but unless something serious happens, it is going to be a missed opportunity in which that money may well end up spent but not spent on anything that will create long-lasting jobs.
Call centres won't continue to do it, those companies are notoriously mobile. There is a huge amount of competition for that kind of job. And whether it is a call centre or whether it is something similar that is mobile, and where you depend on investment coming from outside the region, where the entrepreneurs come from outside the region, where the owners of the company come from outside the region, then there is not much to keep them here except the attraction of the government program available. If the jobs don't last beyond the five or six years that the funding is available for, there is relatively little benefit, even if it might generate more money for government, the government's investment during that short period of time, it doesn't do it in terms of long-term security of the economy, that is the worry I have.
I am sure you are thinking about this all of the time but so far, I haven't heard anything today that indicates that there is really any movement into a more diversified array of jobs. If there is, I would certainly like to hear it.
MR. BEATON: I think when we are back next year, we have only been in operation for a year, so I think in all fairness it takes a while with some of these things. If it was this easy, then there wouldn't be a need for the Growth Fund, somebody else would be doing it. When we are back next year you will see the oil and gas projects and the tourism direction and specifics of where we want to go, to knowledge base, to other things, and I think we are getting there. We are dealing with clients now in oil and gas, for example, but it takes six
months to 18 months to start to get to the point where they really want to sit down and do business with you. A lot of it is talking to them, providing them with information and encouraging them. It is not an easy job because when they are looking at your site, they are probably looking at two others, too.
MR. EPSTEIN: All right, we will have you back in another year. I think we will call you on that one.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Corbett.
MR. CORBETT: Just by way of a comment on trade-free zones, the model not to use is the one the previous provincial government used in Sydport, which was an abysmal failure. We got over that so I can look that one up. In answer to one of Mr. Epstein's earlier questions you said when companies you have invested with don't live up to their commitments there is a way to get your investment back. Is the Growth Fund money fronted? Is that given the day they open the doors, so to speak, or is it incrementally . . .
MR. BEATON: Performance based. For example, they may get some money up front for equipment but then it is based on job hires after that. Only after they hire them and they have been there so long would they get a cheque. Then at the end of the five year period, if the numbers don't match, if they committed to 900 and only have 800, then they pay us back 100 times.
MR. CORBETT: So you don't give them the cheque on day one? They earn the money, they are not using your money as their investment?
MR. BEATON: No, they're not.
MR. CORBETT: I guess I only have two questions. You also talked about roll-out of some tourism activity and roll-out of offshore investment in oil and gas. Do you have a time frame - and I am not looking for March 15th, I am looking for a ballpark - when do you see a lot of this information being rolled out?
MR. BEATON: Probably by the end of March, I would expect, the end of April at the very latest. All those documents will be public documents.
MR. CORBETT: Okay, thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I do believe that is the end of questioning. Mr. Beaton, I want to thank you for coming here today, particularly because I am a local MLA in Cape Breton and being a former deputy mayor as well, I am very familiar with the commitment and effort of your staff, as well as yourself. Although I could sit here and probably come up with a couple of failures, there are many, many successes. I want to thank you on behalf of the people that
I represent for those efforts and congratulate you on choosing the proper staff to get the job done. I think it is always very important to recognize the effort of staff because any time I have ever approached your organization I have been treated with a lot of respect and professionalism. I think the staff should be recognized for that.
MR. BEATON: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
[10:45 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: So that concludes our meeting.
MR. BEATON: I would be glad to come back any time and give updates or whatever. This is meant to be a transparent process folks. We just want it to work and any suggestions or tips or ideas, call, e-mail us. I am in Halifax quite a bit. We are not averse to hearing constructive criticism as well. All we want to do is invest $100 million so that the youth and others in the community will have a bit of a future that maybe other people didn't have. So that is our goal. Thank you very much. I enjoyed being here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Beaton.
Now, for the committee members, we are just going to hold back just for a moment. We will maybe recess for two seconds and then we have some organizational business to deal with.
[10:46 a.m. The committee recessed.]
[10:47 a.m. The committee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will call the meeting back to order, please. We have some business to deal with and hopefully we can do this in a rather short time. We all have other things to do I am sure - I know I do - today. In regard to the meeting on January 8th, it is an organizational meeting. Our staff here needs a list, is that correct?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Of potential witnesses that we would suggest to bring forward so we are asking that those lists be submitted by the caucuses no later, hopefully, by December 17th, which is next week, but certainly no later than January 4th. So I guess what we need to do on January 8th is approve the organizational meeting and we are suggesting that it be held between 1:00 p.m. and 2:00 p.m. on January 8th for the organizational meeting.
Then, of course, on January 22nd we have two potential witnesses that we would like to call forward, either the Strait Area Chamber of Commerce or Scotia Rainbow. So we have to approve the meeting of January 8th, make a commitment to submit a list of potential witnesses and make the decision in which - Mr. Downe.
MR. DONALD DOWNE: One thing, why we are getting together on January 8th, you know this committee, we go back to the terms of reference - I am sure Howard will tell me if I am off base on the terms of reference of the committee, but (Interruption) No, Howard has studied it more than I have, I haven't, and I am not saying that in a sarcastic way at all. You know we bring in groups here. I have always kind of thought this committee should be taking a look at the economic development opportunities for Nova Scotia. I hear Bill, and I agree with you 100 per cent, I know where you are coming from, and Ron, in his area, thank God, I can remember back not that long ago, there was absolutely nothing going on in most of the area. If it wasn't for Stora and the worry of Stora shutting down, there was nobody and, of course, at the Canso Fish Plant and all the struggles that go on there . . .
MR. HENDSBEE: And it is ongoing.
MR. DOWNE: And it is ongoing. We have problems in Preston, we have problems everywhere else. Is it part of the mandate of this committee to sit down some time and actually talk about economic development initiatives for the province? I hate it when we have problems in Cape Breton and, in my view, in my humble opinion, sometimes we will take a shot, because it is Cape Breton, or it appears that we are not thinking about the fact that there are problems everywhere in Nova Scotia. I would hope that the committee would be broad enough and mature enough to say we have huge problems in different areas of the province that need attention and we should be looking at what direction we can at least give the government or somebody as to how we think we can fix it. We are sitting here hearing all these presentations. We talk about all this sort of stuff but, to me, it would be an interesting point to sit back because I don't think every idea of the NDP is wrong. I think they have some good ideas for economic development.
MR. EPSTEIN: We did have a couple of good ideas. I want this in bold print.
MR. DOWNE: In bold print, yeah. Well, I think they have some ideas for economic development. I know the Conservatives have ideas. I am sure the Liberals have ideas but, I mean, why wouldn't we want to sit down for a couple of meetings and talk about some general framework of a strategy for areas in Nova Scotia that need help?
We were just sitting here talking about it, you know. I mean jeepers creepers, you know, it is building self-reliance and building economic stability and it is not just money and it is not just tax credits. It is a combination of a number of things - attitude of community, infrastructure within that community. Why couldn't we do that? Why couldn't we have some sort of facilitator or somebody come in and spend a couple of meetings and talk about it
because everybody else is so doggone busy out there with their head in the ground, bum in the air, going along doing their thing, that our committee should be the committee that would at least try to come up with some constructive ideas. I just throw it out. It is a new year coming.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Epstein is first. We are going to keep this brief, please, because we only have eight minutes.
MR. EPSTEIN: Don is right, we do have good ideas. (Laughter) He is also right that it is within our mandate to look generally at economic development plans for the province and one is about to come out. The government issued a general economic statement and plan last year and there is a specific energy strategy that is about to come out fairly soon and that might form the focus of some of our future sessions. We might get some of the authors of that in, some of the people who are assigned to do it because it is clearly a big sector of the economy and a potentially growing sector of the economy, lots of money floating around it really would be fairly directly within our mandate if we wanted to look at it. It's got lots of potential in different regions. Clearly it is something we could put on the list and it may be that by the time we sit down on January 8th to do our organizational meeting, that the strategy may have been released and we may be in a position to move ahead with that one. So I agree with that. In the meantime, I have no problem with looking at Scotia Rainbow, though.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dooks.
MR. DOOKS: It must be Christmas but I do agree with both Don and Howard. (Laughter) (Interruptions) Well, Howard and David have known me for a long time, a number of years now, first on HRM Council and I have been bringing the same message to different levels of government. I certainly would like to have an opportunity to have a facilitator come from the Department of Economic Development or some place that I could just sit and speak about the issues that are specific to my area in relation to the rest of Nova Scotia, not so structured, not the Party line thing, not worrying about taking the shot. I have some real issues. It is not a joke and you folks, every time it is the same message. I am sure everyone is getting tired but the thing is, Mr. Chairman, it is not changing for the people of the Eastern Shore.
MR. DOWNE: It is not fair.
MR. DOOKS: It is not changing. Yes, it is not fair. I am the MLA, there was an MLA before me and I am sure there is going to be an MLA after me. It is the same issue, government after government, MLA after MLA. Things are not changing there and I respect the people very much in my area and I was elected to bring change. So I would like to have an opportunity to say, as I was starting to get to the bottom of this question this morning, monies are made available, are the monies spent on the bureaucratic level? What are we doing to motivate the community itself, not just having an advertisement on the bulletin board to say
well, down at the local Legion there are going to be some people from Halifax today who are going to tell us how to create. This energy has to be built from within the community and from the people. These are some of the things I would like to talk about, an opportunity, if nothing else, but to express my views and opinions. So I agree definitely that we should bring someone in to facilitate a process and we leave the politics aside just for a little bit and think about the good of Nova Scotia.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: We are going to bring Scotia Rainbow in, eh?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It sounds wonderful.
MR. DOOKS: I am separating that issue from what Don Downe brought up.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There are some wonderful messages here this morning, gentlemen. We need approval for the next meeting of January 8th, please. Are we in agreement for the January 8th meeting? I believe the issue we just discussed can be dealt with during that meeting.
Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
We are in agreement for January 8th. Now on January 22nd we have to agree on which group to bring in, either the Strait Area Chamber of Commerce or Scotia Rainbow.
MR. RONALD CHISHOLM: Mr. Chairman, whichever one you bring in I would certainly like to sit in on that meeting and I will probably talk to my caucus to be a replacement for somebody. The Strait Area Chamber of Commerce, I guess, would be good.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well for me, if you will allow me as chairman to have a little bit of input, I think after hearing about the Growth Fund today it may be of benefit, particularly to the Port Hawkesbury area, if we bring in the Chamber of Commerce.
MR. HENDSBEE: Mr. Chairman, just in the spirit of goodwill and everything I will tell you that at times we should look at the present and the future and forget about the past. We have learned from it - move on. So in my opinion, I think Scotia Rainbow, we have heard it all, it has all been documented, I don't think we have to re-dig it up.
MR. CHATAWAY: I am at this committee on a loan basis sort of thing but I do know that Scotia Rainbow, I like. My friend David mentioned that - is there a write-up on that?
MR. HENDSBEE: There is enough documentation in the department for you to find.
MR. CHATAWAY: Has this committee ever heard of that? Or do you have any records? I very much like that because they talk about aquaculture and things like this. In my riding there are aquaculture things and I think, my goodness, I would like to know about that.
MR. DOOKS: We are not bringing them in to talk about aquaculture, specifically.
MR. CHATAWAY: I know but they have financial backing . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: So are we in agreement for the Strait Area Chamber of Commerce?
Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
So we have completed the business for today. Hopefully on the next day the regular chairman will be back, so I would like to express my gratitude to all members for their patience today. Thank you.
We are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 10:58 a.m.]