MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning committee members, and welcome to the Grape Growers Association of Nova Scotia. The Grape Growers Association is going to make a presentation. I will begin by trying to identify the members of the Grape Growers Association. Welcome, gentlemen. To my left, wearing a blue shirt, Dr. Jim Warner; Jim is the President. He is accompanied by, to his immediate left, Mr. Walter Wuhrer and, I believe, his son, Ralf Wuhrer. They informed us that we can, during question and answer, use their first names if we so choose, as far as asking questions and things of that nature. I wonder if the committee members would introduce themselves, and we will begin with the honourable member for Victoria.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will let the presenters begin then, please.
MR. RALF WUHRER: As Mr. Chairman mentioned, I am Ralf Wuhrer, and this is my father, Walter. We grow grapes in Kings County, almost in Annapolis County, we are on the western end. Dr. Jim Warner has a vineyard also in Kings County, it is just in behind Lakeville. I would like to thank the committee for inviting us here today. I am sure you all have a copy of our written presentation, hopefully you have had a chance to look at it.
The reason we are here today is we have several issues of concern which we feel are preventing the Nova Scotia grape industry from growing to its full potential. There are some issues we feel are discouraging people from getting into the farm winery business. Over 80 per cent of the grape crop in Nova Scotia goes into the wine production, so the grape industry is very heavily tied to the winery industry in this province.
We have eight major issues of concern. The first one is the monitoring of the required Nova Scotia grape content in the farmland policy. There is an appendix directly from the farmland policy attached to our submission that shows the required percentage of grape content each year up until 2006 that is required and there must be a system in place to properly monitor and ensure that this content is met.
Our second concern is the current membership of the Farm Winery Policy Monitoring Committee. Some of the members should be possibly changed to better represent expertise in the industry and there should be a member from the grape growing industry on this committee to represent the interests of the industry so all interested parties are represented on it.
Our third concern is the renewal process that is currently in place for annual renewals of permits for the farm wineries. There is a lot of repetitive paperwork every year from the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission and it could be streamlined and possibly made a lot easier for the farm wineries and the Liquor Commission and reduce expenses on all sides.
Our fourth concern is that of direct deliveries by wineries to licensees. The current system that is in place is very expensive and is very hard for some of the smaller wineries, if there are small volumes, to make it economically feasible to run a sales representative and a delivery vehicle to the same route every time.
Our fifth issue is that registered representatives cannot provide samples to licensees and their staff in restaurants. It is very difficult to promote, especially a new wine, in a restaurant if you cannot take a sample in to let the staff try it because a lot of times in restaurants - I am sure you have all asked the waiter,what is a good wine to go with this meal - and if they have never had the opportunity to sample a wine, they cannot really give a very good opinion of what would be good for the particular meal. So education of the restaurant staff and the managers at the restaurants is very important to promote our provincial wines.
Our sixth concern is that currently the Liquor Control Act requires that a plebiscite must be held in order for a farm winery to get established in an area and to sell on-site if the area is dry. Past experiences have shown we have gone through a plebiscite in looking at opening a winery. The voter turnout is very low. Only about 10 per cent to 15 per cent of the people even make an effort to turn out to vote. Most people do not understand why such a plebiscite is even required. I remember a lot of people saying to me, why are we voting? I explained it to them and they could not believe that there is still such a regulation in place for something like that and the question that is asked on the ballot is very confusing to the people. If it is felt that a plebiscite is required, the question that is asked should be examined to better reflect the actual situation that is being voted on.
Our seventh issue is the possibility of establishing small farm distilleries in conjunction with farm wineries. If you look at the industries in Europe where the big wine industries are, they are very large there. They all have distilleries and they use what are considered by-products of the winemaking process to add value. For instance, you can take the pressings of grapes and make grappa out of them. Today we just take our pressings from our grapes and we dispose of them as organic matter, just like manure. I guess, you spread it back on the field. If you had a still, you could make grappa out of it and add value to what is really a waste product and generate more income for our grapes that we currently grow. You could also make brandies and lees brandies. So I think it would be very interesting to have some of these farm wineries also have distilleries on-site. They would be great tourist attractions and it would increase the product line that they would be able to offer.
The eighth issue I guess that we have is not directly related to the farm wine policy, but it is a problem that one of the members of our association has run into and that is he is currently setting up a restaurant at the winery site. He is a landed immigrant in Canada. He is not a Canadian citizen and under the Liquor Control Act it states that in order to get a liquor license to open a restaurant you have to be a British subject or a Canadian citizen and he is not a Canadian citizen. He is only a landed immigrant so he cannot get a liquor licence. He has to appoint somebody who is a Canadian citizen to act on his behalf. I feel that is totally against what Canada stands for and that should really be examined. I guess that is it for my introduction and I guess we can get into details on these issues now if any of you have questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Wuhrer. Mr. Estabrooks.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Thank you for your presentation. We have received presentations in this committee that go on at great length and I appreciate the fact that it is laid out in this fashion with the points explicitly made and so on and I appreciate that personally. I want to go to point three here if I could. You said that there is a great deal of paperwork and repetitiveness and so on. Can you just expand on that for me, please?
MR. RALF WUHRER: The first year that you apply, when you start up for a permit from the Liquor Commission, you have to fill out an application to get your permit and you have to fill out the same application every year, the entire thing, and you basically repeat the same information year after year. It has to be notarized by a lawyer every single year. It is okay to notarize it the first year, but once your signature is on file, I find it kind of repetitive to go get it notarized every single year.
I have worked for a distillery and for federal regulations for Revenue Canada, once you submit your application initially, all you receive every year is a little remittance that says your annual renewal fee is due. You just submit your money. You do not have to do an entire form again and I feel that it could be so much simpler. If nothing changes in the winery
operation from year to year, all the information is the same from the initial application, why do you have to list the whole list of information again year after year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacAskill.
MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: You say 80 per cent of the Nova Scotia grape crop goes into winery. Where does the other 20 per cent come from?
MR. WALTER WURHER: It is a sweet grape juice and table grapes for fresh consumption.
MR. MACASKILL: Can you describe grappa for me? I am sorry, I am ignorant as to what grappa is.
MR. RALF WUHRER: Grappa is a distilled spirit. It would be about the strength of rum and the way it is made is once the grapes are squeezed, what is left over is the grape skins and the seeds and basically they are packed into an air-tight container and fermented air-tight. Then you take that and put it in the distillery and you add water to it so it does not burn in the still itself. Then you distill the alcohol off it.
MR. MACASKILL: So that is marketed to distilleries, is it?
MR. RALF WUHRER: Yes, that would be sold as a distilled product. There is nobody in Nova Scotia who makes grappa currently, but it is a very popular product, especially through Italy, France and some parts of Germany.
MR. MACASKILL: Is grappa the name of the finished product?
MR. RALF WUHRER: Yes, it is.
MR. WALTER WUHRER: It is an Italian name. It originated in Italy, that is where the name came from.
MR. RALF WUHRER: It is defined under Health Canada's Food and Drug Act under the alcoholic beverage section.
MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Chairman, I will probably have more questions later on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I might just, if it is okay, place a question. I notice you have raised concerns about the monitoring committee, the Farm Winery Policy Monitoring Committee, and I tend to agree with you. I guess the composition is Economic Development, Agriculture and Marketing, and a member from the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission. There is nobody from the Grape Growers Association on the committee. I will ask two questions. Have you
made a request to the appropriate individual or individuals regarding a member on the board and whereas the member from Economic Development has apparently international expertise and as you indicate in your notes, very little trade takes place outside of Canada, is there any movement by those responsible to perhaps better compose the committee?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: I may answer that question for you. When I was president for the association at that time when the farm wine policy was implemented back then and we had two sitting members on that committee until 1989 when all of a sudden nobody was invited anymore. We were just shut out of the committee and at that time the association felt that the farm wine policy should be looked at a little closer because at the start-up the Nova Scotia industry didn't grow enough grapes to supply all the wineries in the province so there was an allowance that they could import foreign grapes and grape concentrate and juices to make wine for three years, to get them going until our industry could then supply them with sufficient materials to make their wines. This didn't happen and we applied for review, but there was no action on it whatsoever and we tried two or three times at that time and nobody acted on it and it just went on from that until now.
I feel very strongly that we have to reactivate this committee to make sure that everything that has taken place in the past is under control now because we need strict guidelines in our industry to have the content rules looked at very closely by us. At the moment, I know there are wineries out there that use more foreign grape concentrate than local grapes to make their wines and that is not what the industry is intended to support. If we can change that, this committee is structured that we have input into it and it is done on a regular basis and the policing of it is there too. We need controls over those imports in order to make our industry grow.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have been joined by John MacDonell, representing Hants East. John, you have a question?
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Thank you for your presentation. I am the Agriculture Critic for the NDP caucus so I am thinking maybe I should be coming to this committee, looking at the greenhouse growers coming up next.
I enjoyed your presentation and I have a couple of questions. One is around, and you may have already addressed this before I came in but, what you see as the potential growth in your industry. The other question is around aspects of climate change in the province. My understanding of growing grapes is that there are very few locations that have the microclimate, enough heat units, that are good for grape cultivation and so you can correct me if I am wrong. I am just wondering about the general potential for the industry and also the impact of what we are seeing as climatic change which could possibly affect your industry.
DR. JAMES WARNER: The industry really is quite young in the province as you know. It started around 1981 with five acres. Since that time, the farm wine policy that was introduced has helped in terms of the growth of the industry. There are several farm wineries now in the province with a new one coming onstream again this June and there are several people who have acreage growing in grapes and are interested in the small wine policy.
I think at our annual meeting this year there was a presentation by a member for the Department of Agriculture on the growth of the grape industry in Nova Scotia and he said that it is one of the few industries that has shown in the past couple of years a positive sign of growth and opportunity for growers that is not taking place in some of the other crops, so he was very encouraged with that growth and thought that it bode well for the future.
You can parallel the industry here with what happened with the industry in Ontario. I think when the small farm wine policy came into Ontario they started to grow in the same way we have been, and they were able to increase their product by putting in strict regulations on the growth of grapes and the use of those grapes in Ontario products. Now they have an industry that is something like $60 million a year in the farm wine industry. So, the potential is there to grow, and it takes, I think, some careful tending of the public perception of what it is and the growth of the tourist industry part of it that is important. I think the opportunity is there. There are more and more people who are interested in putting grapes in. There are a lot of land that is suitable. They certainly need microclimates, but there are large areas within the Annapolis Valley that are suitable for growing grapes. The problem with the lack of rainfall in the past few years hasn't affected the grapes as much as it has other products because the grapes tend to grow deeper and seek out water at deeper depths and are more easily controlled in terms of putting water on them.
The industry in Canada, I think, is going to grow at a tremendous rate. At the present time, there are the national farm wine regulations being brought into place. There are wine standards that are going to be imposed hopefully across the country that will require more truth in labelling of wine bottles. Actually anyone who bottles a product in Canada can call it a product of Canada, so we are trying to get away from that problem. We are trying to limit the use of provincial names so that people who use a product of Nova Scotia do have an 85 per cent content of Nova Scotian product in the bottle and all of these things. I think that the public perceives these things when they come into play as positive for the industry, and they start to seek out that product in the liquor store.
If you look at the wineries that are in place now and the ones that are coming onstream, I think there is no question that it is going to grow. Some of these changes that are being proposed here, I think, will help that in terms of easing of the introduction of new growers and new wineries into the system.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: A couple more questions. When you mentioned Ontario and the industry there, I am assuming that most of that was in the Niagara Peninsular area. I was in Cape Sable Island here in Nova Scotia, a couple different times anyway. The individual I was with said, you know, if you drive down that road there, maybe half a mile, you will be at the most southerly point in Canada. I said, you mean further south than Point Pelee, and he said, yes. So I am sure there are a lot of people in Ontario who would never believe that. I guess it is true. So I think about Nova Scotia's position geographically compared to the rest of the country and it would tend to make me think that there are some possibilities that we don't often think about. If the soil type is good enough there, then the potential is probably there. I am curious about what you see - and I know this is all related to debt load, et cetera, cash flow - but basically, how large an operation or what acreage would someone need to be a viable operation, considering other marketing influences, et cetera?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: I may answer that for you. It all depends on what kind of lifestyle you expect from your place. If you want to go on holidays six times a year, you need at least 100 acres of grapes. But if you are satisfied with an income of $30,000 or $40,000 net a year, I think with 25 acres, you can make a comfortable living off that vineyard. If you produce wine yourself, you increase your income dramatically because you add value to your product. You can go into juice production, sweet grape juice is a very good drink. With our regulations now, you cannot have a glass of wine when you go behind the wheel, I think a lot of people will go in that direction and try a glass of sweet grape juice or apple juice, whatever it will be.
We have the potential here to grow at least 2,000 or 3,000 acres of grapes in the Annapolis Valley, if people are willing to go into it, but like we say in our report, with the regulations that are in place now, it is very difficult for a small guy to establish himself and go that route. If there was some easing on that, there might be more people willing to go into that, even myself. I was thinking about starting a winery, but when my son went through the Liquor Control Act, he said, Dad, we have to hire two people to sell our wine and promote it in the restaurants, and we cannot afford that. I said, well, then, we will just forget it. If this would change, I might start tomorrow.
You mention the soils for growing grapes, soils are not very important to grapes. They are adaptable to almost anything. In Switzerland, they drill a hole in the granite, blast it, have about eight inches of topsoil and they grow grapes there. The roots go down into that granite and get the water. In sandy soils, you may have to irrigate; in heavy soils, you have tile drainage. That is what we are all experiencing in the Valley. There are so many different soils, but the grapes do well in every type of soil as long as you supply the nutrient level, they need adequate water in the summertime and the drainage in the spring to get the excess water away, so there is no problem there.
This province has a lot of potential, because when I came in 1981 from Germany, my intention was to establish a wine industry. I was one of the pioneers with Roger Dial, he is not in the business anymore, and Hans Jost, he passed away. The three of us, we started the Grape Growers Association of Nova Scotia in November 1982. I did a lot of research, I researched every way possible into the varieties we could grow. I pulled more grape vines out in the last 15 years than I planted in the last 2 years, because I made the wrong judgement, the variety didn't ripen, it didn't produce the quality I wanted. But right now, we are at the point where we can tell people at this site you plant this variety and you will do fine. Now is the time to expand. The research has been done, we just need the tools to do our job and go on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chipman.
MR. FRANK CHIPMAN: On the 9.3 per cent, is that applied on the retail end, or would you have to add that on to any sales you do at your winery outlet?
MR. RALF WUHRER: The 9.3 per cent is applied to products that go to licensees, restaurants, bars, lounges, et cetera, and that is applied by the Alcohol and Gaming Authority. That 9.3 per cent gets added on to the retail price. So if you were to go into a Nova Scotia Liquor Commission store and purchase a bottle of wine for $10 as a private individual, a restaurant would pay an additional 9.3 per cent on top of what you would pay as a private individual. It is applied at the retail level.
MR. CHIPMAN: I was looking through this booklet here, it looks like the spirit and the intent of the wine policy was good in the beginning. They talk about permitting samples of farm winery wines on the winery premises, and to sell farm-winery manufactured wines by the opened bottle at the wine store and to encourage effective marketing and promotion. That was back in 1986. When did the new regulations actually come out, in 1993?
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. RALF WUHRER: Actually the newest version of the policy came out January 1st of this year; there was a revision.
MR. CHIPMAN: I haven't seen those yet.
MR. RALF WUHRER: I actually have one copy here, if anybody is interested in looking at it.
MR. CHIPMAN: To get back to the carrier, would you just explain that again. If I come to your farm, can I sample a bottle of wine at your winery?
MR. RALF WUHRER: Yes, you can. But you are limited to one sample, I forget the exact size but there is a set size of how many millilitres it can be, one per visit. So you could theoretically only sample one type of wine.
MR. CHIPMAN: Let's say I have a restaurant, and I come to your facility to buy wine. I can sample it there, now how about transporting it from your winery to my restaurant?
MR. RALF WUHRER: You can do that. A restaurant can purchase directly at a farm winery and transport it themselves back to the restaurant, but a registered sales representative for the winery cannot deliver to the restaurant.
MR. CHIPMAN: So you would have to hire two people, in effect, one to sell and one to deliver.
MR. RALF WUHRER: That is right. One person to make the sales call, and then somebody else would have to do the delivery. The person doing the delivery is not permitted to do any type of promotion of the winery, they can strictly do the delivery. I feel, as any business owner, you would expect every one of your employees to promote your business. I think that would be just common practice in any business that you would run.
MR. CHIPMAN: What is your fee for a farm winery licence?
MR. RALF WUHRER: A farm winery licence is $600.
MR. CHIPMAN: It was $400.
MR. RALF WUHRER: Plus you need a hospitality room permit for the samples. That is, I believe, another $100. I know one farm winery in the province that also has a cottage winery permit to do fruit wines, they do apple wines.
MR. CHIPMAN: The schnapps, is that what you are referring to?
MR. RALF WUHRER: The distillery, currently it is $2,000 per year for a permit. Obviously, if a small farm distillery policy were to be looked at, that should really be re-examined because the volumes wouldn't be there that would be in the large distillery.
MR. CHIPMAN: There is a distillery in the province, is there?
MR. RALF WUHRER: There is one now. There is Glenora in Cape Breton.
MR. CHIPMAN: The one you were working with . . .
MR. RALF WUHRER: They are shut down effective this past Friday.
MR. CHIPMAN: Any reason for that?
MR. RALF WUHRER: Yes, basically the cost of selling in Nova Scotia was too great, because the regulations with the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission, to get a listing you have to commit to x amount of advertising, you have to commit to a certain sales volume, or you have to sign a guaranteed sales agreement which means if your sales volume doesn't reach their quota in six months, you can be de-listed, and you have to take all your product back at your cost and you have to cover the transportation too.
MR. CHIPMAN: You were distilling schnapps. Where was it going, Austria?
MR. RALF WUHRER: We were going overseas, to Austria and Germany.
MR. CHIPMAN: None being sold here?
MR. RALF WUHRER: No. It was in operation for three, almost four years and it was never sold here.
MR. CHIPMAN: They wanted to start selling here, though, and the conditions . . .
MR. RALF WUHRER: They looked at selling here and after taking all the numbers into consideration, and because they were fairly small - obviously when you are small your cost per unit increases, especially from the licensing end. If you are producing 2,000 litres and you are paying $2,000 just for the provincial permit, it is $1.00 a litre type of thing. Their volume is low, so their unit cost is fairly high. The price point they would have hit in the liquor stores, nobody would have bought it. After doing the numbers, it just wasn't economically feasible to try to sell it.
I find all the regulations, even from the federal end, are all designed and written for large industry. It is very difficult for a small operation to start up; you basically have to start big in order to survive. It is not always good to start big, because a lot of times the management skills aren't there, and that is why you see a lot of these companies, they pop up, they are huge, and within a couple of years they are gone. I find that is bad for the economy.
MR. CHIPMAN: This company you worked for, how many were employed, and how many litres a year did you produce?
MR. RALF WUHRER: Year-round, it was just myself; seasonally there were obviously pickers in the orchard and things like that. The biggest year we produced, I think, about 10,000 litres.
MR. CHIPMAN: How was your quality compared to other areas?
MR. RALF WURHER: The gentlemen who owned it from Europe were always very impressed with the quality. They said that the fruit flavour of the apples and that what carried through into the apple schnapps is much richer than they experienced anywhere in Europe. I attribute it to our climate and the growing conditions for the apples here. That is the only explanation I had for it, because even varieties that they grow overseas, like Gravenstein, we grow here, too. They would always sample one from Europe and one from here, and there was an incredible difference between the two.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions from committee members? Mr. MacDonell.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: You probably have referred to this and explained it, but could you explain to me what this means?
MR. RALF WURHER: I must say right off that I was not that heavily involved in the association when this chart was developed. (Interruption) Well, Jim and Dad might know better. They were more involved at the time in negotiations of that.
DR. WARNER: That chart is in the new edition of the revision of the guidelines or the procedures for the farm wine policy, and what it tried to do was impose a requirement on the farm wineries to have a certain per cent of Nova Scotia grapes in their product. At the time we started this, we had several runs at it. It took us probably four or five years, I guess, to where we finally got it into the regulations or guidelines. So in 1998, the percentage number that the wineries could live with was around 35 per cent of the content. They could live with that in terms of content for Nova Scotian grapes and not affect their sales or decrease their volume. We agreed to start at 35 per cent with an incremental increase each year of five per cent.
So by the year 2006, the requirement is that 75 per cent of the product that it is in the bottle be from Nova Scotia grapes. The way we did it is, as new wineries came onstream, they would jump into wherever that curve was growing, so they had to start at a higher level. The stick kept rising, and so, 75 per cent in 2006 we felt was a reasonable sort of number. Most of the wineries are above the requirements now. We are at 45 per cent in year 2000. I think most of them are above that point. I think it was helpful for them. We reached an agreement that that would be a reasonable standard to live with.
Now, as the national standard comes down, there are higher standards that are going to be imposed, for example, what is known as VQA wines, the requirements are stricter, they are at 85 per cent.
AN HON. MEMBER: What is VQA?
DR. WARNER: Vintage Quality Alliance in Ontario is the sort of upper level quality wine. They have 85 per cent Ontario wines and must be 100 per cent Canadian. We don't have any requirements in regard to the Canadian content here, but when this national standard comes in, which it is hopeful it will be brought on board at the end of this year, then that national standard will be higher than these, and the wineries will have to meet it if they are selling to that standard.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: The 1998 level, the 35 per cent, you said that was the level that the producers felt that they could meet without affecting their sales. So I am wondering, is it the thought that if they had more Nova Scotia content grapes in their wine that the quality would not be there, or how would that affect their sales?
DR. WARNER: I think it was just the volume was not there at the time for them to have a higher content. When they started, they had no requirements in terms of percentage, really, so they would buy concentrate from the U.S. or other areas and bring it in and make their wines with that; it would be cheaper for them to do that than to buy fresh grapes in the fall from the producers. They didn't encourage a large number of people to get into grape growing. The people who started growing grapes and the association felt there should be some requirement for Nova Scotia content, especially since the impression that the public had was that these wines were, in fact, Nova Scotia grapes that were being used in the bottles. These regulations were sort of a saw-off between the two of us in terms of causing them real economic hardship and to get some sort of standard started.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: What is the quality of the wine produced by grapes grown in Nova Scotia? Can we compete internationally or what?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: I think we can compete internationally. We cannot compete with a Chardonnay or a Beaujolais from France because we cannot grow that type of grape here. The varieties we are growing are mainly French and American hybrids, and the reason we have to grow those is because of winter hardiness and early ripening. On those levels, we can compete with anybody in the world. If you go down to Grand Pre Wines, their standard is 100 per cent Nova Scotia and they live by it. Sample, when their winery is opened, then you can see what quality we can produce here. Those people did an excellent job, they have the expertise from Switzerland, they are Swiss people, and they are very good wine makers and you will see when they open up what is going on.
DR. WARNER: This is the sort of thing that happens as industry grows - you get other people coming in from other areas, you get wine makers who have had experience elsewhere and so they bring in their knowledge of how to make better quality wines. Most of the wineries that were in Nova Scotia sort of pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and the owners were the wine makers and the grape pickers and everything, so they didn't really have the finesse to produce a real quality wine and I think that is changing to a large extent now. Certainly with the Grand Pre Winery opening in June of this year, that will raise
the bar again. The other wineries will just have to improve and bring in better wine makers and improve their quality. I think you will see that the Nova Scotia product can compete. I think our ice wines are as good as any made in the world, so that is a product that I think is a sleeping giant here that a lot of people don't know about. It has the potential for really making a mark for Nova Scotia.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: You mention the Chardonnay and Beaujolais in France. Is there a North American grape in the hybrids or whatever that is seen on the horizon as to have a quality standard that can rival the quality of those grapes or do those grapes, just because of their history and where they grow, have as much to do with their marketing ability as their quality?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: I don't think there is a hybrid out there that can match the exact same flavour, but as a quality wine itself, with its own distinct flavours, it can match it. They can grow excellent Chardonnays in British Columbia and Ontario because they have a growing season of 220 frost-free days and we have only a maximum of 150 frost-free days, that is the reason. When you compare, let's say that we can grow a Lyon Merlot which is a French-American hybrid which is a burgundy-style wine when it is finished, if you compare that to a Beaujolais from France, there is not much difference. It just has its own distinct flavours, but the quality itself is almost equal. Then it depends on who makes it. There are wine makers out there that can make a beautiful wine from a low quality grape and then there are others there, you cannot even drink it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we will move along to Mr. Hurlburt.
MR. RICHARD HURLBURT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and I thank the gentlemen for their presentation this morning. I was looking forward to having wine with my breakfast this morning, but I see why we don't have it is because of the 9.3 per cent tax. There are two things that this new government, I am sure that you people must be open to, in the platform of the John Hamm leadership, he is saying to start a Red Tape Commissioner and go across this province. That would be beneficial to your organization, I am sure. If we can cut some of the red tape, it would sure help your industry and help promote it and strengthen it. The second in the platform of the John Hamm leadership was to promote Buy Nova Scotia First. That would be beneficial to your industry, would it not?
Those are just two things I homed in one, and I think it would be beneficial because listening to your whole presentation, it is the red tape, is it not? Thank you.
MR. RALF WUHRER: I guess it falls back on, we have to keep in mind when our liquor laws were written in this province. Speaking with a lot of the officials at the Alcohol and Gaming Authority and the Liquor Commission, the line I always get, it is a very old law, and it has not been updated. That is what I am told when I question some of these rules and regulations. So I guess it is really time to bring this law up to speed and to what really is the
practice by not just wineries, but across the board, breweries and even with these microbreweries. The microbreweries apparently face a lot of the same challenges we face as far as direct deliveries and sampling and things like that.
MR. HURLBURT: I have one in my town and I know they have been going through the same hurdles.
MR. WALTER WUHRER: May I add something to this. I think it would be a good idea for the people from the government and the Liquor Commission to look overseas at what Europe is doing about taxation of this type of product because over there where I grew up in Germany, in every small town, there were grape growers, orchards, there were berry farmers, and everyone made his own wine and could sell it in his own backyard, but he paid his taxes. We do not need a commission to have a monopoly in an industry. We need small operators who create jobs out in the countryside. That is what we need, not a bureaucracy with a monopoly. That is what I am against. Please look overseas at how they regulate the alcohol and everything. it is very simple. The government gets its share, the private operator has his fair share, and they both can live with it. Thank you.
MR. CHIPMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if you would entertain a motion, two motions at this time, but just a comment first. I think the rate of alcoholism is probably not as great in the countries that you mention either as it is in this country or North America.
MR. WALTER WUHRER: That is another good point I should say. Overseas, you can take your family out to dinner. Your child, at three years of age is allowed to have a teaspoon of red wine with the meal. You do not see very many drunk people over there when they reach the age of 19, because those kids know all about alcohol. They know it is a food. They do not abuse it. They drink it with a meal. They drink a glass in between when they have friends over, but they don't get drunk on a bottle of rum when they reach the age of 19 and go crazy and drive their truck into a building and cause accidents. Those people are educated, and that is what is needed. If you educate people and don't say it is a forbidden product, you cannot have it until your reach the age of 19, then you don't see the abuse. Education is the key.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chipman just before you place your motion, maybe we could have a question from Mr. MacAskill. He has another question, and we will go back to your motion, if that is okay.
MR. MACASKILL: Walter, you have talked about growing different kinds of grapes in Nova Scotia. First of all, what do you call it, do you call them a grape orchard or a grape vineyard?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: Grape vineyard?
MR. MACASKILL: Have you tried to export? You only grow grapes for wineries in the Province of Nova Scotia, that is your main purpose. What about the consumption of grapes? Is that a totally different type of grape?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: You mean table grapes? Yes, this is a crop I am actually very heavily involved in. I did a lot of research in the last 10 years, and I have about six seedless table grape varieties in my vineyard now which are doing exceptionally well, and the people really like them. I sell every pound I have. They go to farmers markets, people come to my farm gate and buy them. I have said to my son we should go into this more heavily and market this product in the Maritimes, go to Newfoundland, go to New Brunswick, but on the other hand, I cannot do it all by myself. I encourage other growers to go the same route and then we can do cooperative marketing for that product, either hire somebody to market the product for us on a broader basis or create our own grape growing co-op and market it that way.
So far I see a great potential in seedless table grapes and I am expanding into it. I just made more cuttings the last couple of weeks to provide more vines and it is a great opportunity for us because our grapes have a more distinct flavour than the ones you buy from California. Each variety I grow has a different flavour and that is what is appealing to people around here. They say this taste different than the ones in the store and then you give them another variety, oh, they are totally different again. There are grape varieties out there. They originate from Cornell University in Ithaca, New York and Geneva and they have done a tremendous job. There is Einset, a strawberry flavoured red grape. There is a black grape with a black currant flavour. There is the Himrod seedless. It is a green grape which tastes almost like a Thompson seedless from California. Then we have Reliance, Suffolk grape and Canadice, they are also red grapes and all three of them have different flavours again. They are more to the labrusca family, the North American grape.
I can only say come out to my vineyard in the fall and I will give you a few samples and you make your judgement yourself. I invite you all if you want to come. I will give you a tour of the industry and you can see what it is all about. I think that is needed because a lot of people have misconceptions about us and that is why we are here today to explain to a broader public what we can do with this industry because we need more people to go into that because other farming sectors are getting out. We have to keep our industries alive here, our farming communities.
MR. MACASKILL: Can you tell me, how do you grow a seedless grape? It amazes me, I love grapes, but how do you grow them without the seed, I am puzzled as to how you do that?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: It is not genetic engineering yet, but you could call it that. When scientists developed seedless grapes, there is a special process. You have to have the right parentage to achieve that and most of the varieties came from the Russian seedless
grape. In Asia there is a wild grape that is seedless on its own and they used those grapes when they cross-bred other varieties mainly from northern Africa. That is where those big sultana grapes grow, where they have the raisins from, and these two varieties were mainly used for cross-breeding and that is where all those new seedless varieties were derived from.
MR. MACASKILL: Interesting.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chipman, you had a motion?
MR. CHIPMAN: Yes. I would just like to ask another question, Mr. Chairman, if I could. What percentage of the wine produced in Nova Scotia is exported?
DR. WARNER: Very little. I think one of the wineries just got a listing, for example, in New Brunswick in the last month or so. So that is sort of . . .
MR. WALTER WUHRER: And Iceland.
DR. WARNER: And there is a little bit in Iceland, that is right.
MR. WALTER WUHRER: In Iceland, yes. We always bring up that they ship wine to Iceland now, but on a small scale.
MR. RALF WUHRER: I would say it is probably less than 5 per cent maybe.
MR. WALTER WUHRER: Not even that.
MR. RALF WUHRER: Yes, it is hard to say.
MR. WALTER WUHRER: So you can see what we produce in Nova Scotia is used here so there is room for expansion.
MR. CHIPMAN: Would you entertain that motion now, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I certainly would.
MR. CHIPMAN: This committee recommends that an industry member be included in the composition of the Farm Winery Policy Monitoring Committee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we have a seconder?
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: I second that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. CHIPMAN: I have another motion I would like to bring forth and it reminds me of a situation in my constituency. There is an art gallery where - rather than revealing the area that it is located in - they have an enterprise, we will say it is a commercial enterprise downstairs, they are into leather goods, they sell jackets. On the third floor, they have an art gallery and they applied for a wine licence because they felt it was a tourist destination, a major tourist destination in the province, and they felt it would be nice if people could come there, go to the third floor, where there are no leather goods, where there are a lot of pictures from local painters and to appreciate this fine art and have a glass of wine. Well, they were rejected. They were not allowed to have one. To me that is part of the redundancy of some of the regulations we have in the province.
I think the Liquor Control Act is outdated, and I would like to make a motion that the Alcohol and Gaming Authority review the regulations made in regard to the farm winery policy, and that input and participation by the Nova Scotia grape growers be included in this review.
MR. KERRY MORASH: I second that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion, please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. MACASKILL: Could I ask another question? Your grape vineyard as you call it, how do you keep the crows and other prey away from your grapes? Is that a problem?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: We have problems, but we can control them. We use bird netting. Some migratory birds like redbreasted robins, if you do not have netting over your red and blue grapes, they will come in at the level of thousands. In 1986, I lost 50 per cent of my crop in two days. That told me, you have to do something. So we bought bird netting, and ever since, we have no more problems with birds. The green varieties for some reason, they don't touch them too much. Either they fit in with the foliage and they cannot attack them that easily; later on when the leaves drop off or you have a frost and the leaves disappear, then the birds go at the green ones, too. The other thing is racoons, but we can control them with electric fencing. We have to run a few strands of wire all the way around the vineyard and put a battery charger on. That keeps them out.
MR. CHIPMAN: What would say the number one challenge for grape growing in Nova Scotia would be today?
MR. WALTER WUHRER: The Liquor Commission. (Laughter)
MR. CHIPMAN: No problem with consumption, though.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to thank all the members of the Grape Growers Association for coming in this morning. On behalf of the committee, we certainly found it very informative, and we would like to welcome you back sometime again. Committee members, I would advise you that we have to deal with a future agenda, so please sit tight, don't take off. Thanks again, gentlemen. If you have any final comments, you are certainly more than welcome.
MR. RALF WUHRER: I would just like to say we have left our address and phone numbers on the presentation so if anyone has any questions about any of these matters, just feel free to contact us. Thank you again for inviting us.
MR. WALTER WUHRER: Thank you.
DR. WARNER: Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee members, our next meeting date is scheduled for Tuesday, April 18th. We have Mr. Peter Stokdijk, a large greenhouse grower from the Beaverbrook-Old Barnes area of the province. He indicated at one time that he was the largest cucumber and tomato grower in the province, but the honourable member from Annapolis advises me that, in fact, someone in the Valley is bigger, but then I took that back to Mr. Stokdijk, and he indicated that in fact, under one roof, he is the biggest grower. I don't want to start an argument. That is who is coming in at our next meeting.
We have a list regarding potential witnesses. I am just wondering if you have had an opportunity yourselves to think about witnesses subsequent to April 18th? You know we are very flexible at this committee and if there is something that is topical, perhaps.
[10:00 a.m.]
MR. MACDONELL: I was wondering what your process was. Last year I asked about a lady who had been in my constituency and she was involved with the organization Communities in Bloom and I think she had written to the committee trying to get on the slate to be a presenter and if it is possible I would like to submit her name. I think I even have her number. Her name is Margaret Stinson who represents Communities in Bloom. I think she is now in Mr. Christie's riding, but I will get that number and organization. First I thought it would go to Resources and then last year I was told that Economic Development would be
the better committee for that so I don't think she ever got here. If the committee would be interested to hear her at some point, I know she would still be interested in coming to the committee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That is fine with the Chair, is it okay by committee members? Will we put that name forward for consideration?
MR. CHIPMAN: Yes, I mentioned the name quite some time ago, Britech Information Systems. I just wonder whether they may be on the list.
MRS. DARLENE HENRY: I haven't called them in yet. It depends on the committee who they will be wanting next.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could, the list of potential witnesses that has been submitted by the PC caucus and haven't been called would include MacTara Lumber Ltd., Irving Limited, Sproule Lumber, Georgia-Pacific Gypsum, LaFarge Cement Plant, Jim McNiven from the School of Public Administration, Brian Reid from Britech Information Systems. From the Liberal caucus we have Keith McPhail, Project Co-ordinator, Nova Scotia Culture Strategy; we have Greg MacLeod, BCA Holdings; Heather MacPhee-Otto, Information Technology Industry Alliance of Nova Scotia; and that is it. We have a name from the NDP caucus now for consideration, so does the committee have a name they would like?
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add to the list Mr. Fraser Howell, he is the CEO for the Yarmouth Airport, and I would ask that he notify the CEO for the Sydney Airport, and maybe somebody from the Halifax International Airport just to see what is happening to these airports in our great province, what the federal government is doing to them. It might be an eye-opener to all our committee members. The sooner the better for those people because there are new regulations coming down from the feds and it is affecting all our airports in the Province of Nova Scotia.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if we have an agreement among committee members, could we perhaps try to arrange that for the meeting following April 18th?
MR. MACASKILL: The federal government is doing the same as the provincial government, trying to let the private operators run them. That is the buzzword of this century. I have a suggestion, Mr. Chairman, that we go down the three lists from the three Parties and we take a meeting out of each caucus, we go down the list one by one and then we all get a fair shake out of it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a suggestion?
MR. MACASKILL: No, I don't really. I am not quite sure Mr. Chairman, are we going to meet regularly right through the summer? Is that your plan?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It is my understanding based on past precedent that the committee does meet twice a month. I am not sure if it adjourns for the summer months. Darlene perhaps you can clarify that.
MRS. HENRY: The committees do not stop, they meet all year around, but we can take a little break over the summer, stretch it out a bit . . .
MR. MACASKILL: No, no, I was just wondering - we used to tour some of the facilities on occasion. Maybe it would be time to put it on our agenda, maybe some grape vineyards would be a place we could tour, probably on one tour we could get up to a dozen.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not sure, quite frankly, whether or not we have a budget, in fact we received a request this morning, for example. Do we have a budget that would enable us . . .
MRS. HENRY: We used to have a budget, I haven't received an updated one yet.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you explore that? If it is an agreement of the committee we could perhaps look at a visit somewhere.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe at the next committee meeting, Darlene could come back with more information for us. We seem to be spinning our wheels a little bit on a potential witness for the next meeting; could I just throw out MacTara Lumber, the largest sawmiller in the province. I know that they have made a request to come in before the committee and perhaps explain to us. They have fibre coming from nearly all parts of the province and a lot of people do have concerns. We have a former Minister of Natural Resources who would probably like to place some questions to the presenters if it is agreed. If you have somebody else, I don't want to . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have the next meeting scheduled, yes, but it would mean that we should try to keep at least one or two ahead.
MR. HURLBURT: Mr. Chairman, I understand what the honourable member opposite is saying about the federal government and their getting out of the airport business, but I think that has a big impact on this whole province: Cape Breton, my region and the Halifax region. The Halifax region has benefited from the airport policy most of all. But if we amalgamate the two airline carriers, they just announced last week, they have cut another flight out from the Yarmouth Airport, and I am sure the same thing is going to happen in Sydney. This has impact all over our province, and it would be good for the members to see what is happening in our province on the airport and the carriers.
If a carrier happens to come into this province, they are only allowed to touch down in Halifax, they are not allowed to go to Sydney or allowed to go to Yarmouth. They are only allowed to touch down in one place, and they have been fighting this policy for a long time. Maybe this committee should be updated on some of this. That is all I am saying.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, in the spirit of cooperation, is it agreed by committee members then for our tentative May 2nd meeting, to placate Mr. Hurlburt's request that we would try to bring in the witness for the meeting subsequent to Mr. Stokdijk. So we have a witness for the next meeting. Would you want to have your caucus, Mr. MacAskill, bring forward a name.
MR. MACASKILL: I think we have a list there. You just took it on the top. Sure, go from the top down, I would say. They would likely be in a priority order there.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If that is agreed. But we do have a certain flexibility built into the committee if something comes up. You never know what might happen. You don't want to be too rigid, but if you felt that you might want another witness after you consult with caucus. But Kennie is absolutely right, we have to be fair about this and try to alternate. Mr. Hurlburt's topic is very timely and certainly is a concern to him.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: It is a concern to me because the airport affects my riding in a big way. A lot of employees come from Hants East into your riding to work, Mr. Chairman.
MR. MACASKILL: I certainly have no problem, Mr. Chairman, if it is within our mandate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have Transportation issues.
We are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 10:08 a.m.]