MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS (Chairman): Perhaps we could begin. Let the record show that Mr. Brooke Taylor, the member for the beautiful Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley is unable to attend today so I have been seconded to be the Chairman. I welcome Ms. Cabrita and Ms. Fiander here. Perhaps before we begin we could introduce ourselves around the table.
For our witnesses, we usually have about a 15 minute presentation; the old school teacher in me says it might be 17 minutes, if you wish. Then we have the opportunity for an hour or so to have an exchange with questions and so on.
We usually wrap up after that with a few items of committee business. If I could, just on the agenda, for members present, if we could, under committee business, we have the next two meetings dates, future potential witnesses, after that, if either of the caucuses has anything else to add, Mr. Taylor asked me to encourage us to bring them forward. With that, perhaps we should introduce ourselves.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Cabrita, are you the spokesperson?
MS. JUDITH CABRITA: I have a presentation. You have a package with some information about TIANS, our annual report, latest tourism insights, and a couple of studies that we have been involved with, and also my presentation. That is for your bedtime reading, I guess. The topic is Invest In Tourism, Seize The Opportunity.
Why Tourism? Because it offers one of the best opportunities for Nova Scotia to strengthen its economy.
What is tourism? Tourism is trade, it is economic vitality, it is economic development. Tourism requires travel for the exchange of trade, dollars earned in one community and spent in another. Tourism is not only leisure, but it is also business travel. Tourism is everybody's business, it touches every occupation and every business.
I thank you very much for the invitation to address the Standing Committee on Economic Development and for the opportunity to discuss with you the benefits from an investment in tourism, its place in the economy and its potential for growth. I am going to take you ahead a little bit. The year is 2005. Tourism is now the world's largest industry and largest employer; in actual fact, it will be.
In Nova Scotia we are open for business. Tourism is recognized as an economic engine, an export industry and is a well managed and protected resource. A Tourism Resources Management Board has established our carrying capacity and provides access to capital. Coastal areas have been mapped and designated for protection or development in balance with our ecosystem. Halifax International Airport is the eastern gateway to Canada and a regional hub welcoming with open skies international scheduled flights from all areas of the world. A strong regional airline feeds the eastern provinces and states. Halifax and Sydney are cruise home ports and coastal water ferries link our necklace of small ports.
Transportation is intermodal and interconnecting to provide Nova Scotians and visitors with a seamless journey. Service standards guide a skilled workforce. Quality benchmarks are monitored. Private enterprise is booming. Investment in infrastructure is unimpeded by boundaries for development that is sustainable and strategic. Marketing is a cooperative effort. The general public are willing ambassadors and the political will moves to enhance our position as the premier Canadian year-round destination. That is the future.
Back to the year 2000, where are we now - an undervalued, over-regulated, struggling industry with a world market knocking at our door. Nova Scotia has become a world destination of choice, a province for all seasons, but you cannot get here from there. In fact, already flights to Halifax surrounding the Tall Ships' dates are becoming difficult to book from the U.S. and flights from Europe are near capacity mid-July to mid-September.
Nova Scotia is on the horizon of an unprecedented tourism boom with a potential for a healthy life cycle, but it must be managed strategically as a true resource. Strategic planning to maximize and protect its future is quickly needed. Government must recognize tourism as an economic generator and provide investment and political support to realize its huge potential. We need to manage the business of tourism, reduce regulation and barriers to business growth, extend our traditional tourism season and increase protection of our natural and built heritage in many cultures.
Tourism is also the most competitive industry in the world. Other industries have found tourism to be the panacea for their economy and are making major investments in infrastructure and marketing to ensure sustainable economic growth. We compete with Cape Verde, Thailand, Israel, and our marketing efforts pale in comparison to the rest of the world. Tourism is a revenue-producing industry. The Department of Tourism and Culture is a revenue centre. Tourism has consistently provided growth within our province over the past 25 years. World tourism revenues have grown 25 per cent. Tourism has grown in Canada at a faster rate than all other industries since 1975.
In the past 10 years we have seen revenues increase in the province from $795 million to $1.275 billion, an annual growth factor of 6 per cent. In 1999 growth increased by 15 per cent in visitation and 16 per cent in revenue, unparalleled in the rest of Canada, and 60 per cent or $765 million are export dollars from markets outside of Nova Scotia. In fact, in Canada over $80,000 is spent every minute of every day, 365 days a year. The Nova Scotia Tourism industry has 6,500 direct businesses supporting over 3,600 jobs. In addition, the suppliers to the industry providing products to feed, house and entertain our travellers contribute payroll and pay taxes. Every tourism dollar spent in Nova Scotia generates an additional 67 cents into our communities in supplies and wages.
A number of years ago the U.S. Chamber of Commerce compared the relationship of 100 tourists a day to 100 manufacturing jobs in any given community. Manufacturing jobs require countless services such as schools, water and sewer, while tourism visitation provides export revenue, new dollars, tax and HST and millions less in infrastructure services. Visitors verily utilize our social services and contribute to the provincial sales tax revenues. Visitors bring revenue, new dollars into our community, which is why we must protect our communities and ensure they flourish and to do that we need to provide our travellers with adequate signage so they can experience our heritage and culture.
Tourism has important links to regional diversification. Tourism-related businesses spread throughout the province are, for the most part, small enterprises. Tourism is also a Main Street industry, more dollars are spent on Main Street than they are in food and accommodation combined. In fact, 16 per cent of every dollar is spent on shopping alone, matching the number of dollars spent on accommodation.
Tourism is a quality industry. In addition to supporting our rural and coastal communities, traveller spending helps support our parks, our museums and our special infrastructure built for an event and enjoyed by our residents, such as Centre 200 in Sydney. Tourism is environmentally friendly, non-consumptive and non-polluting, and helps make Nova Scotia a place where people want to live. Tourism celebrates our natural and built heritage. Beyond the revenue generation, awareness of the needs and wants of our visitors assists our citizens to develop pride of place, of person and of occupation.
Tourism is also the barometer of our economy. Presently it is strong and dependent on disposable income. Its current strength comes from a buoyant world economy, especially in our neighbour, the United States. Economic prosperity in the ageing, wealthy baby boomers who have both time and money to travel will continue to feed the tourism industry. Historically the 50-plus have never had so much time and money.
Investment in tourism creates a pay-back to the economy and the government many times over. The remarkable point is that the province has few options where a positive return is realized in the first year in which the investment is made, a return that continues for many years. It is an investment that generates tax revenues for government, revenues that can be used to fund important needs for Nova Scotians, education and health. And those revenues are generated throughout the province, providing positive economic benefits to rural and urban Nova Scotia.
Nova Scotia has taken the first step in developing a private-public partnership, the Nova Scotia Tourism Partnership Council, a Nova Scotia version of the Canadian Tourism Commission, but it must have the tools to provide the return on investment. In 1999, our advertising expenditure investment by the province of $6 million had a return of $80 million in revenue, an ROI of 1,233 per cent. In simple terms, every marketing dollar generates $13 in tourism receipts. In 1999, overall receipts of $1.2575 billion generated an extra $250 million in taxes.
Tourism is everybody's business. It calls for inter-ministry working relationships. Tourism is multi-disciplinary, requiring cooperation from Transportation, Natural Resources, Agriculture, Fisheries, Forestry, as well as other departments and agencies. The domino effect of decisions without consulting tourism interests demonstrates results in disjointed development, lack of signage, inadequate access and excessive regulation, all having a major impact.
Government must be assisting the small business community, which tourism is, especially in this province where only 8 per cent of our businesses have more than 50 employees, and removing constraints that impede growth and prosperity which have immediate return. Each time the tourism cash register rings, 15 cents goes into the government in HST on each dollar. We need government to fully endorse tourism. At the beginning of a new millennium, a new approach and vision would enable the tourism industry to continue to lead our province onto a new path of prosperity. If we can double that $250 million of tax revenues generated by the industry, think of the future possibilities for better roads, schools, health care and social programs.
In 1996, a Tourism Strategy for Nova Scotia was created and endorsed by the tourism industry and its partners in Voluntary Planning, TIANS and government together. While never endorsed by the Legislature it does identify seven goals for the tourism sector which remain constant today.
How did we get where we are today? With a lot of help and many external factors. Nova Scotia has had the world stage over the past few years, in sports, television and movies, in world events, in new infrastructure and events beyond our borders.
In the future, travellers will seek out destinations and experiences using the power of the Internet to research the products that are available from the comfort of their home. They will make more trips to more different destinations than ever before.
Our current market share is small and competition is strong. Affordable air travel on the Internet means that we are competing in the global market place against destinations like Australia and New Zealand, and experiences like cruising, all of which spend much more on marketing than we do. We are in an excellent position to take advantage of this growth. The new global competitive environment has created challenges for Nova Scotia, challenges which require investment in both product development and marketing. We have to make sure that the visitors can reach us by improving air, road and ferry access. We need to provide the right products for the right markets. We need to achieve high standards of excellence through all aspects of our industry. We need to market our products in an increasingly competitive market place.
If we are to be successful, to take the golden ring, and make the most of tourism potential, we have to invest the resources. New investment in product is crucial: resources to expand our capacity, improve our products and develop new ones; resources to increase the awareness of Nova Scotia as a travel destination; resources to close the sales; resources to attract a bigger share of growing markets so that all Nova Scotians can profit from the revenues and jobs that tourism can generate. The tourism industry in Canada is highly organized like no other. It has defined itself. It has set standards for its workplace, devised a means to reward performance, developed workplace tools, a technology platform and a means of marketing recognition of place.
The 21st Century is a question of balance and a search for balance. Nova Scotia must decide if it is in the business of tourism and where it is going. It must be embraced and it must be treasured. Tourism is a resource. It is this because it is what we are as people and as a culture. It is because we have a bountiful history and a magnificent natural and built landscape. We have a crown with many jewels. We must decide how far to go. Responsible tourism is a question of balance. It shares and protects. We must determine our carrying capacity, protect our coastline, conduct tourism-impact analyses on all development projects in the same way we do environmental impacts, manage to enjoy the riches and protect the future and proceed with strength of purpose.
Global research in 1998 defined the following as critical trends for the 21st Century. I will just skip over those in the interest of time, but you can read them at your leisure. Leakage, those are dollars coming into the province through multi-franchise companies and taking those profits out to head office; americanization, globalization, liberalization, taxation,
employment, safety, organized crime, technology, environmental issues, airlines and aviation, public and private sector alliances, branding, cruise and marine tourism, holiday trends and above all, a new customer. In the age of less tolerance or more kindly, the age of higher expectation, technology and telecommunication improvements and their ease of access will be the nurturing force behind this new era. Driven by the rapid shift from static media to interactive digital, the customer expectations are profoundly increased. The new age ushered in by the baby boomers is spoiled, well-educated, well-financed, well-travelled and used to instant gratification.
I have listed a number of the constraints and barriers to the business of tourism and I am sure that will be where some of our discussion will go this afternoon. I have listed them as: infrastructure investment; financing; human resource shortages; re-regulation in the motor coach industry and the retail hours of operation; protection and conservation; our Nova Scotia coastline; our lighthouses; wharves and navigational aids; our land use; marketing, privatization, transportation - and in transportation we have a number of items - such as the infrastructure again; air access; ferries; signage; assessment and taxation; impact studies; the environment; and our festivals and events.
Our festivals and events support our communities and celebrate our history. Support is crucial. Our industry thrives because of the huge volunteer commitment and if we are to star on the world stage, we must provide direction.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have a wealth of information here and we certainly appreciate what you sent to us earlier. I understand the constraints of time, but I know from your comments, Ms. Cabrita, you certainly will have generated some exchange with the members present. I will keep a speaker's list here; Mr. Corbett to begin with.
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Ms. Cabrita, it is good to see you again.
MS. CABRITA: It is nice to see you again.
MR. CORBETT: I will just start off with some questions. One of the ones that kind of popped out of me revolves around transportation. I guess the question I want to ask first is, the majority of visitors who come to this province, what is their mode of transportation - is it vehicle, is it cruise ship, is it the private automobile?
MS. CABRITA: It is still the private automobile, but air is growing exponentially.
MR. CORBETT: Are there any figures done back the other way of why that may be the largest number of visitors? Is there a visitor that tends to leave more money in Nova Scotia, if you will, or has that been extrapolated that way?
MS. CABRITA: One of the reasons that we have been so supportive of Icelandair coming in is because the European visitor, and particularly the Icelander, is our most lucrative visitor. The Icelander spends an average of $2,200; the average European is $1,800; the U.S. is anywhere between $900 and $1,200; and our Canadian visitors around $600. So that is one of the reasons why we want the European market to grow and why we need sufficient air access into Nova Scotia.
MR. CORBETT: With that in mind, I guess we will stay with air travel for one moment. Has the industry been supportive or urging maybe that airlines should look at other areas to enter the province, be it Yarmouth or Sydney, either one of those airports?
MS. CABRITA: Certainly we see that if there is Yarmouth and Sydney, Amherst even, that there could be more visitation. I was encouraged to hear Joe Randall this morning say that he was going to be looking at new destinations within Atlantic Canada for their regional airline that they will be announcing in April, or how that is going to be structured. They are hoping to have it announced by April. The more visitors we can get in, and I think the opportunity for Sydney is to be looking at charters, but scheduled airlines is where the real investment comes as far as getting people here and air visitors do spend more than car visitors which I think was where you were coming from.
MR. CORBETT: Yes. That leads to the next question because there is much talk about Icelandair looking at putting on another flight here.
MS. CABRITA: We would like them to have four more flights.
MR. CORBETT: I will tell you what, I will just go for one in Sydney and then we will work out from there. A lot of times we say that the hub-and-spoke method of economic development does not work and, therefore, you just cannot rely on a hub here in Halifax and hope they reach out. I guess what I am asking you is, would your group be supportive if Icelandair was looking at say one or two more visitations here, of having one of those provided in an underserved area whether it be Sydney or Yarmouth?
MS. CABRITA: Certainly we would support that. I think you are in a rivalry with Mr. Tobin who is talking to the Prime Minister about getting one of those flights in Newfoundland and they have actually already been successful in getting a charter in because we are not open on Sunday and there is a real attraction for Icelanders to shop. As you may know, they buy cars, they buy fur coats, they buy all kinds of things here that are cheaper. So they are going into Newfoundland and Mr. Tobin is actively working on getting them to have a scheduled flight there, but certainly we would support that. It is probably unlikely because of the infrastructure that is required, but what would make that work is if we had more flights in here and we had good regional airlines at a reasonable cost so that they could get off that Icelandair flight and go to Sydney; in fact, regional airlines at a reasonable cost so that they could get off that Icelandair flight and go to Sydney. In fact, in one of the studies that
Icelandair did they actually showed that they put more money into Air Canada, or Air Atlantic and Air Nova, than actually came into Nova Scotia off Icelandair because they were putting that money in and then it was going out into the regional airlines. It was very profitable.
[1:30 p.m.]
MR. CORBETT: I just have a few more questions on transportation.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I have Mr. Chipman waiting. I want to be polite to the other members of the committee.
MR. CORBETT: With no real rail service within the province, is that a detriment to tourism, especially when we talk about the emerging baby boomers, the 50-plusers, would you say if we had a good interprovincial railway system that that would be another attraction?
MS. CABRITA: Certainly and it was very short-sighted to take up those rails because we are seeing the resurgence of that in the rest of the world, but we are very encouraged with VIA Rail's Bras d'Or that is going to be a tourism train and I think it is April or May that it is going to start running from Halifax to Sydney. That is going to be a great boon. So we see, there are not that many rails left, but certainly that is a success.
MR. CORBETT: One more transportation question before I throw it over to my friend and it is going to be a lob, I guess. The conditions of highways, you know, do we get much reaction from tourists, wherever they are from, since you say it is such a high volume who come here using either the family car or some form of motorized transportation on the highways. What kind of reaction or have you ever done a survey of what people think of our highways?
MS. CABRITA: The highest number of complaints that we get from our visitors is our highways. It is certainly very much of a concern.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chipman.
MR. FRANK CHIPMAN: Mr. Chipman, I don't know, maybe I missed something here. Have you included cruise ships in your report? What kind of potential do you see with cruise lines?
MS. CABRITA: A tremendous potential from the cruise industry and going ahead to 2005, I was suggesting that if we were to be a home port, where people could fly in from Germany and stay in Halifax for a night, or stay in Sydney for a night, or Baddeck, and then get on a cruise ship, that is where the real dollars would be, if we could house them here, but with over 150 ships coming into Nova Scotia this year we are going to be doing very well by the cruise industry. It is very lucrative. There is all kinds of potential; we are not maximizing
our rivers. We could have cruises going up and down our rivers in Nova Scotia, the Avon River or the Annapolis River, or LaHave River, or whatever.
MR. CHIPMAN: The Keltic Lodge, Digby Pines, Liscombe Lodge, they are owned by the province. Are they a large attraction?
MS. CABRITA: They are. They are jewels in the crown. They set a standard of excellence for the industry. They are benchmarks and they contribute a great deal. They have the size, they have the location, to be a major draw for companies that are coming in, like the motor coach companies like Tauck that have been coming in for 30 or 40 years, but they are a major draw and of great attraction for the province.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hendsbee.
MR. DAVID HENDSBEE: I have a few questions. You must have been pleased with the Fiscal Management Task Force that came down and highlighted a reference about partnerships and that tourism was one that was used as an example. So I am pretty impressed with that comment you had in your presentation about the return of investment and the $6 million gives $80 million back and I think things like that we have to encourage but in regard to that that I was going to ask about, that is the one thing about partnerships, my previous experience with HRM, or Halifax Regional Municipality, there has been some talk about the hotel room tax and perhaps that should go directly to a tourism promotional budget. Any comments on that?
MS. CABRITA: That is certainly one of the ways of raising marketing dollars. It is being done in British Columbia where they actually have a dedicated tax which is about the only one, where the tax is going directly into marketing. It has been done in Washington to build a new convention centre. It has been done in St. John's to build a new convention centre. I think it has to be thoroughly thought through before it is implemented, but it is sort of in the bailiwick of the Hotel Association which are championing that, but any taxation that hits our visitors has to be really thought through before it is implemented.
MR. HENDSBEE: In regard to your comment about the tourists coming into our province, about the highways; is it the holes or the tolls that they are concerned about?
MS. CABRITA: You know, it is very interesting because we thought we would get a lot of comment on the toll roads. Our office has not received one. We were very prepared for that. I think our visitors seem to accept that. But it was surprising because we thought we would get a lot of calls.
MR. HENDSBEE: That would have been my impression, that they are probably used to it in their own areas, and coming here, it is just no big surprise for them.
In regard to the condition of the highways, you make reference in your presentation to the instant gratification, that they probably want to get from A to B as quickly as possible. Do they take the byways? Is it the 100-Series Highways that they travel more or do they take more of the side highways, like the trunk routes and things like that, the more scenic views?
MS. CABRITA: I think that is one of our challenges, to provide adequate signage so that we don't lose our communities, that our visitor does really experience more than the I-95 type of highway. We have such a beautiful product here. Our main thoroughfares, our 100-Series Highways go through some very beautiful areas, but where the charm is, is in the communities that are off that. That has always been the challenge for the industry, to get them off the roads and we need partnership from the Department of Transportation to make sure that we get them there, that we don't lose them in the long run.
MR. HENDSBEE: I am sure that our Chairman can probably boast about the signage pilot program we have had on Route 333, for showing the community names on the way, as it has been identified as, probably, the highest tourism traffic highway, Halifax to Peggy's Cove. I am concerned with that but I am more concerned about the Eastern Shore region, Highway No. 207, the No. 7 highway. There is just as beautiful scenery there and we have to get those developed.
I have two last questions. Cruise line terminals. Do you think we need one in this city, or do you think our pier down here is adequate enough?
MS. CABRITA: It needs a lot more. It is certainly a great improvement from what was but it needs a lot more.
MR. HENDSBEE: The Rails to Trails, do you think that is going to bring in more tourism from beyond, or will that be just more of a local attraction for residents?
MS. CABRITA: Our visitors are coming for a variety of reasons and hiking, and walking is, certainly, a good pastime. It is, certainly, a year-round activity. If developed and marketed properly, we could have people coming to enjoy that, certainly.
MR. HENDSBEE: All right. No further questions at this time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Downe.
MR. DONALD DOWNE: Thank you very much, Judith, and Ms. Fiander, for your presentation. It is very well done and thought through.
I remember back in 1993, trying to ramp up tourism in the province at the time. There has been a phenomenal growth in the tourism sector since 1993, exponentially, as you would say. What would you attribute that to?
MS. CABRITA: A lot of things. We have become much more sophisticated in our marketing, much more targetted in our marketing, but it is also the fact that we have had the enjoyment of some world events. We have had the G-7, we have had the world figure skating and we have had these events that have put us on the world's stage.
Things like passing the legislation for the endangered species and special places, that put us way out there, remarkably. It put us in all the magazines, like National Geographic, et cetera, who celebrated that with us, so that has been part of it; a lot is external. The Cabot celebrations in Newfoundland helped us, all of those things, as well as the fact that we are becoming much more strategic in our marketing and the partnership is helping us to get there.
MR. DOWNE: There appeared to be the political will to kind of promote tourism certainly in the last few years, as we have seen it ramping up.
MS. CABRITA: We have the CTC as well, which is, as you know, another public-private partnership.
MR. CHAIRMAN: He was fishing for that, Ms. Cabrita. (Laughter)
MR. CORBETT: It is called a slow, hanging curve.
MR. DOWNE: A very cynical crowd we are with here, Judith, so don't worry. One of the issues, and I posed a question to the Department of Economic Development a few weeks ago about financing, financial access and loans and things of that nature for capitalization within the industry. I asked a question about setting up a tourism loan board. We have it for the fisheries and for the forestry and for agriculture. First, what is your feeling about establishing a loan board specifically for the purpose of tourism and the tourism sector?
MS. CABRITA: Phenomenal. We have had for the last three years the financing options for the tourism industry committee, FOTI we call it, trying to do something. We are getting to the point where the industry is going to have to do it or we should be doing it in partnership with government because financing is just impossible for our industry.
MR. DOWNE: The response I got back from the Department of Economic Development was that the BDC was the loan board for tourism. Can I take from that then that BDC is not, in your view, tourism's loan board per se, but is there for everybody and it is not really focused for tourism to the degree that you would like to see it?
MS. CABRITA: Absolutely not; I agree with you 100 per cent.
MR. DOWNE: So you would support the initiative that we brought forward on developing a loan board specifically for tourism - the fastest growing sector of the economy - to go specifically for infrastructure and things of that nature, not a grant but loans, repayable loans?
MS. CABRITA: Absolutely not grants. The industry is definitely against grants but we have a very tired product and the industry cannot - not even guaranteed loans at the bank, I know that there is just no interest to loan to our industry for succession plans, capital reinvestment, it is impossible. So we would welcome that very much.
MR. DOWNE: We will pursue that a little further. The issues on privatization. There is a lot of talk now about the potential of privatizing the Liquor Commission in the Province of Nova Scotia, selling off golf courses, liquidating assets in the province and as one of my colleagues had mentioned earlier, Liscombe Lodge, The Pines and things of that nature - there is a possibility that those would be sold, over the next period of time, to the private sector. How do you feel about that, good, bad or indifferent? Obviously, it depends on who buys them.
MS. CABRITA: Well, yes, as far as the resorts are concerned, we certainly would not want to see a fire sale.
MR. DOWNE: No, but assuming they were sold at market value, whatever that market value would be, that is just the free enterprise system, assuming they are sold to the private sector, what would the tourism association's attitude be towards the selling of those as well as the golf courses that we currently have?
MS. CABRITA: As far as the resorts are concerned, I think we would want to be taking a long, hard look at the location of the resorts and the economic value and the employment that they create, et cetera, in the province. I think that we would want to make really sure, because I doubt very much that the private sector would be able to maintain those resorts at present levels, and it is a question of balance as well.
MR. DOWNE: We know the locations. We know the employment. We know all the numbers. Specifically The Pines, Liscombe Lodge and Keltic, if they were sold, is that good or bad, from the tourism association's point of view?
MS. CABRITA: From the tourism association's point of view, I would think that we would not be totally in favour of it unless we were absolutely assured of the level of excellence that those resorts maintain at the moment. You can look at St. Andrew's as an example, it is not totally sold, it is managed and it has never been at where it was. So we would have to have some very strong guarantees that the level of excellence was still going to be there.
MR. DOWNE: The liquor stores and whether we move into agency stores or a full deregulation within the Liquor Commission itself, there is the concern from the hotels, restaurants and institutional trades saying that, number one, we should have access seven days a week. I think in your report you are talking about Sunday shopping, whether it is . . .
MS. CABRITA: P.E.I. and New Brunswick have seven day access.
MR. DOWNE: For alcohol?
MS. CABRITA: Yes, and some privatization too.
MR. DOWNE: Some agency/store concept, whether it is boutique stores or whatever they want to call them, but they are not full-blown, deregulatory, but they maintain the retail or the wholesale side; you would support that initiative?
MS. CABRITA: Definitely.
MR. DOWNE: Nova Scotia would be ready for that? Tourism wants it?
MS. CABRITA: Definitely. Very much so because it is so over-regulated and so archaic in its operation that it is a major constraint for the industry in its present operation. I think if you were going to privatize it, we would want to look at the distribution system. Certainly the regulatory part of it belongs with government, but the sale of it belongs to the private sector.
MR. DOWNE: We are talking now about the potential reduction in the Department of Tourism and Culture by 20 per cent to 25 per cent for the next two years. That is what is floated out there right now. What impact will that have on the tourism industry in Nova Scotia if we start seeing 20 per cent over two years or a 25 per cent reduction in two years? What impact will that have on the tourism industry?
MS. CABRITA: It would be very detrimental. We can see what happened in Ontario where they lost a major market share when they cut back on their tourism marketing dollars and their investment in the tourism industry a few years ago and are now having to double everything to get it back. A good example, if you spend $6 million and get $80 million, why would you want to cut back from that? You are not going to get that $80 million if you don't spend, invest; you can't reap the rewards. So it would be devastating.
MR. DOWNE: When the Minister of Tourism and Culture announced the cultural program that worked together with the private sector, the partnership where industry actually drove the agenda and came forward with a strategy, it had mixed reviews within the government of the day. Some said that they weren't going to pay any attention to it because it was a previous government's initiative and the minister was very supportive.
In talking to the private sector which ran that agenda 100 per cent, they were very frustrated by that and said it will have an impact if it is not implemented on the tourism sector, as well, because it goes hand in hand. How hard would the tourism industry be fighting for that report to be recognized for the work of the private sector, everything from museums to the arts, to music, the whole team? You are very familiar with that, it was an industry-driven initiative. If the government doesn't pick up on that initiative, will that have a negative impact on the total direction and focus with regard to tourism potential in this province?
MS. CABRITA: It certainly will. There has been a lot of work done to develop that. Actually I have included a document that our Cultural-Tourism Committee has worked on and we are having difficulty getting a voice for that, as well.
MR. DOWNE: We have a designated department specifically for Tourism and Culture, which is very important for the province. Potential cuts of 20 per cent, 25 per cent; there are mixed feelings within the government with regard to the ability to accept the report of the private sector; we are talking about partnering here to get more; and there are some questions about whether private sectors are going to say, well, what is the point if they are not going to pay attention to what we are saying? Do you see the vision of the department currently being one that has the political will, the fortitude and the strength to drive this crown jewel of tourism forward in the Province of Nova Scotia or is it going to walk away from the opportunities that are there?
MS. CABRITA: You are asking me what the department is going to do?
MR. DOWNE: Yes.
MS. CABRITA: I hope the department is going to fight very hard for what it has. There are areas where perhaps a few less studies or something along that nature, a few less consultants getting a lot of dollars, but to cut across the board without wise consideration of those areas that produce revenue is just not visionary thinking.
MR. DOWNE: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dooks, Mr. Hurlburt and then I am going to recognize Mr. Corbett again, but I will keep him on hold if somebody wants to jump in before Frank does. Mr. Dooks.
MR. WILLIAM DOOKS: To think, madam, that the government is going to take 25 per cent right across the board is sort of premature at this stage. I think it is very important for us to realize that the government has created a whole new department. I would just ask you for a response on that. Do you think it is of benefit to have a separate department to focus on tourism and culture, to realize that it does understand that this plays a very important part in our province?
MS. CABRITA: I think, yes, we were very pleased to have the department back again, the partnership council working directly with them, as well. It certainly deserves a very high profile within the government of the day.
MR. DOOKS: I always take the opportunity to talk a little bit about highways. I represent the Eastern Shore and tourism is very important on the shore, an area where there is very little industry.
Some concern about a 100-Series Highway - and I just want a little clarification - do you think that a 100-Series highway from, we'll say, Dartmouth to Canso, would enhance or encourage people to visit our shore more often and then, probably, take off the side ramps to the local communities? What is your true feeling with that?
MS. CABRITA: I never feel that the 100-Series Highways are good for tourism. We need them, perhaps, for safety and for distribution of goods, but if we are going to have them, we have to make very sure that we have adequate signage and we have good marketing so that we can let the tourists - if you see the Nova Scotia travel map, it has the 100-Series Highways faded and the trailways highlighted. That is the encouragement we would like to see, Eastern Shore being one of our great views.
MR. DOOKS: I guess it is experience talking. Do you know if there are any stats that would back that up, to say that it is not necessary to have a 100-Series Highway, that it would not contribute to more travel?
It seems to me, I guess, more travel to the South Shore, or down through Antigonish to Cape Breton. I just have some concern, thinking that some of the travellers may pass through the Eastern Shore if they were sure that the highway was in somewhat different repair.
MS. CABRITA: If we had our highways in very good repair, Highway No.7, certainly, that helps our travellers to get where they are going in good time. I could look and see if we have any stats, if there has been some research on communities because it would help us, as well with our signage.
MR. DOOKS: I would like that. Now, also, the Eastern Shore has a number of lighthouses. There are very many fishing communities. Do you think that we promote that to the best of our ability? Should there be more focus on that? Does your association look at that type of thing?
MS. CABRITA: Very much so. The protection of the wharves, of the lighthouses, the navigational aids - of course that is a federal responsibility - is very high on our agenda but there is going to be a world lighthouse conference in May, on the South Shore, and there is
a lighthouse product club that the CTC has set up to market the - Lynne Perry is very instrumental in that South Shore - regional director.
We feel that by highlighting this conference it is going to highlight lighthouses and we will have people and speakers coming from all over the world. It will help us to save and enshrine them because they are very much a part of what Nova Scotia's history is.
MR. DOOKS: What about the mercury issue? Is that going to interfere with any type of promotion? The federal government had made a report that there was some mercury contamination in some of the lighthouses off the eastern coast?
MS. CABRITA: I don't know that that would affect it, necessarily.
MS. DOOKS: Yes. I just want to state, I guess, that I had great experience with lighthouses. I spent 13 years of my life growing up on Sambro, Betty Island and Egg Island, along the Eastern Shore; very beautiful, indeed. I think it is a part that we should try to promote more in tourism and be very supportive. Thank you, madam.
MS. CABRITA: Well, we do have the Lighthouse Route.
MS. DOOKS: Yes, indeed, I know, very well.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So what you are telling me, Mr. Dooks, is, you lived on Betty Island?
MR. DOOKS: Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, if you want to talk about lighthouses.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's why you turned out so well?
MR. DOOKS: Yes, well, my father was a lighthouse keeper in the summers, I should state, that we spent the summers there, at lighthouses, Betty Island and many years on Sambro.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You can tell when it gets to a certain topic - you should hear Betty's light some night when it is really working.
Mr. Hurlburt.
MR. RICHARD HURLBURT: Thank you for coming in, and your presentation. Through your presentation, you sort of highlighted the metro area and the Eastern Shore, but part of Nova Scotia - there is the Western Shore. In Yarmouth, we have an international airport and international ports with ferries coming in there. We have cruise ships coming into Yarmouth and Shelburne. The two ferries that come into Yarmouth daily, I think, last year,
in approximately four months, they brought 360,000 visitors to our shores. That is a fairly good part of the tourists that are coming to Nova Scotia. In saying that, I would like to know if your department has done anything about the strike or if you have had any comments from the tourists about the strike at Rodd's Grand Hotel?
MS. CABRITA: First of all, I would like to say, I certainly did not mean to highlight any particular area of Nova Scotia because it is all a big jewel. The CAT promotion last year that we did was wonderful. The CAT actually won an award this year in our tourism awards of excellence.
The strike at Rodd's Grand, we have not been asked, as a trade association, to be involved. We have not, actually, had any more than about two pieces of correspondence on that.
MR. HURLBURT: You don't find that has been a negative impact on the tourism growth in Nova Scotia?
MS. CABRITA: Not that we are aware of.
MR. HURLBURT: There were people in my home town who criticized me as an MLA, an elected official, two weeks ago, that they would be embarrassed if they were the MLA living in that town, or representing that town, for not doing more. Has TIANS talked to the union or the owners of the Grand Hotel?
MS. CABRITA: Not specifically on that.
MR. HURLBURT: Really, I find that interesting.
MS. CABRITA: Well, as a trade association we respond to our members, of which we have over 1,000, and 6,500 businesses. It is not really our role to interfere in a labour dispute.
MR. HURLBURT: I guess it is political. It should be political I guess.
MS. CABRITA: It certainly is a sad situation to see people, on both sides, and certainly we did get calls from the paper because of the threats to go to the United States and the banning of people and maybe getting involved in some sort of fracas with the ferries, et cetera, but that is actually not an area that we have gone into. If we were asked to, we would look at it.
MR. HURLBURT: I think there are two sides to it. There is the owners, and there is the union and the picketers. I talked to the picketers one day when they were rocking a tour bus going in there. Those tourists had nothing to do with that strike.
MS. CABRITA: That's right, yes.
MR. HURLBURT: The message they are sending back is not a positive one for Nova Scotia. Anyhow, in saying that and moving on, you talked about more air traffic in Nova Scotia and I fully agree with that. I think that Mr. Randall should take a better look at the rates that he is charging. When it is costing approximately $400 for myself or any tourist to go from Yarmouth to Halifax, that's ridiculous.
MS. CABRITA: Totally ridiculous, yes.
MR. HURLBURT: Totally ridiculous, when I can fly halfway around the world for $500. There is something wrong with this, is there not?
MS. CABRITA: Absolutely.
MR. HURLBURT: So maybe we need more competition, maybe instead of putting all of our fruit in one basket, we should be distributing it around a little better and looking for new carriers coming in.
MS. CABRITA: We certainly would like to have some encouragement to WestJet, which will be coming in this summer and to Mr. Rowe with CanJet. The more competition, we would like south jet and north jet and everybody else that we could get.
MR. HURLBURT: My final point is the highways. Yarmouth is on the western tip of Nova Scotia yet we do not have - and maybe you don't agree - a 100-Series Highway, but I know when our tourists are coming in and they have their vacation packages, they are coming across on our two ferries, like I said, 360,000 people in four months and they are trying to get to Peggy's Cove or to Halifax or to Cape Breton, or wherever they are going, and they do not have a main artery to get out of our community. I think that is harmful to our tourist attractions too.
We talk about twinning, we talk about highways everywhere else, I think people have to realize that Yarmouth is part of Nova Scotia and we deserve a link too.
MS. CABRITA: Actually 80 per cent of the travel on the South Shore is either going to or from Yarmouth. So it is a very important part of the infrastructure.
MR. HURLBURT: So maybe if Highway No. 103 was brought up to 100-Series Highway standards, that would relieve some of the traffic on Highway No. 101 that they keep talking about. Anyway, those are my points.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have Mr. MacAskill as a first-time speaker. Ken.
MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: I have a couple of things that I would like to ask you, Judith. I will begin with the tall ships. Are you involved? Do you meet with Tall Ships 2000 relative to exactly where the tall ships are going to be located and what role they are going to play in tourism?
MS. CABRITA: I, personally, am not involved but some of our staff in TIANS are involved.
MR. MACASKILL: But TIANS is to some degree.
MS. CABRITA: In some ways we are, yes. We are not on the steering committee. That is a very strong industry committee that is working on that.
MR. MACASKILL: Just to follow up on what Mr. Hurlburt has said relative to it, it is my understanding that the tall ships are coming to Halifax, but when they came back after the Cabot celebrations, some of those ships travelled to various ports across the province. I have written to the chairman of Tall Ships 2000 to find out if that was something that was going to happen again.
[2:00 p.m.]
MS. CABRITA: It is.
MR. MACASKILL: It is going to happen?
MS. CABRITA: Oh yes, very much so.
MR. MACASKILL: But don't you believe that it is kind of late in the game, shouldn't we know, have some idea at this point in time as to what ports would be visited?
MR. CABRITA: I can't think of the program name for it but we certainly have been aware for a while, at least for over a year that that was part of what they were going to do. Are you saying that they haven't actually published which ports?
MR. MACASKILL: Not to my knowledge. They have published Sydney and Louisbourg, and these are ports that are doing fairly well anyway.
MS. CABRITA: Shelburne. There is a contingent of the ships that will be staying here and will not be doing the trans-Atlantic race and those are the ones that will be going to the ports. I understood that that was well organized and in hand but I certainly will do some research for you - and there is a name for the program - but I will find out, Mr. MacAskill, and get back to you about that.
MR. MACASKILL: Just an issue of clarification, when we were talking about Keltic Lodge, Digby Pines and Liscombe Lodge, I guess TIANS is aware that Keltic Lodge is sitting on a piece of federal Crown land and I don't think the federal government is prepared to give that piece of real estate up to the private sector. I am not quite sure what arrangement the province has with the federal government . . .
MS. CABRITA: You can't even cut down a tree, I don't think, can you?
MR. MACASKILL: That's correct. So I can't see in the near future Keltic Lodge becoming privatized.
Another couple of questions relative to the creation of a separate Tourism Department. TIANS certainly supported that.
MS. CABRITA: Very much so.
MR. MACASKILL: Could you explain to the committee what the benefits of that would be?
MS. CABRITA: To have your own minister, it mostly raises the profile of the industry within government and within the private sector.
MR. MACASKILL: With no additional funding.
MS. CABRITA: Well, it would have been nice. Eventually, in 2005, in my scenario, when government fully embraces tourism as the economic generator that it is, I am sure there will be more dollars.
MR. MACASKILL: There will be more dollars and this Tourism Department will replace, quite effectively, Economic Development and Tourism?
MS. CABRITA: Well, it is completely separated now so I think they have just divided it off, but it certainly was welcome to us because we see the potential for that strategically managing a resource.
MR. MACASKILL: There is no doubt that there are some regions in the province that are showing stronger growth than others. What role does TIANS play to sort of get a better balance, so the growth would be more stable across the province?
MS. CABRITA: That's interesting. I was checking some statistics yesterday for a call that I got on the occupancy in 1999 and the occupancy in rural Nova Scotia grew by 5 per cent last year and in Halifax by 3 per cent. So that is encouraging. We are seeing new businesses starting up rurally.
We monitor, I guess, we listen to industry, we talk to industry, we watch what the partnership council is doing, we act as a catalyst. When people come to us to support development we do some research and we are involved in supporting many things that are happening in the industry. As an active participant, we encourage more infrastructure and we are working on financing and trying to grow this industry as best we can, assisting it. We are a catalyst I guess.
MR. MACASKILL: Many Nova Scotians would certainly attribute the growth to the weak Canadian dollar and the strong American dollar. Has TIANS done any research as to what effect or change might take place if our dollar starts to gain strength? What effect would that have? Is TIANS doing any research to offset any increase in the value of the dollar?
MS. CABRITA: The Canadian Tourism Commission has certainly done some research on that. It certainly would have an effect but it would not probably have as much of an effect as one would think because so many Americans are not aware, until they actually get here, of the value of their dollar. We have been very careful in our marketing; we can say your dollar goes further and a lot of things like that, but we don't necessarily market the fact that there is a big difference in case it does change. That's not why they are coming. They are not coming because of the dollar. Research has proved that.
MR. MACASKILL: Is that right?
MS. CABRITA: Yes. Certainly it has had an effect, not on the Americans or the Europeans coming here, but on keeping Canadians at home. So a lot of our domestic tourism has been affected by that. The growth in the Quebec area was because they are not going to Old Orchard Beach in Maine, I think it is. The influx of Ontario tourists that we had this year, we can attribute to the fact that a lot of that - not all of it - was because they are looking at a Canadian destination as opposed to an American destination.
MR. MACASKILL: You would think it would have the reverse effect of snowbirds who go south in the winter. The dollar has certainly made a significant change in whether they go south or not.
MS. CABRITA: Florida's advertising has been very strong in trying to give people a better deal on their dollar, et cetera, because they have seen a big difference.
MR. MACASKILL: There is no doubt you are a strong supporter of the Complete Guide for Doers and Dreamers?
MS. CABRITA: Certainly.
MR. MACASKILL: It has been doing very well. That is all, Mr. Chairman, that I have at this point in time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's great. We will hopefully get back to you, Mr. MacAskill. If I may, before we jump into our second round of speakers, I know we have some lined up here, if I could refer to Page 20 of your submission where you have the TIANS membership. I am just interested in the umbrella organization which I assume TIANS is. I see the TIANS membership there, but then in the package that was given to us earlier - and I appreciate that - there is a section under Media where the Warden of Richmond County, Richie Cotton, is very outspoken on the fact that the Richmond County Tourism Association, whether it lives or dies, is of great concern to him. I am sure that there are, throughout the province, organizations such as the Richmond County Tourism Association. Where does an organization such as that fit in the schematic on Page 20?
MS. CABRITA: There are about 30 organizations in Nova Scotia that are involved in tourism, some of them sectoral, some of them regional. The way that we have broken this down is the traditional associations that have been set up regionally by the industry, by demand. There are many small tourist organizations and I would imagine that the Richmond one works very closely with Tourism Cape Breton. I have actually been down there myself speaking to that group and we would certainly support any endeavour that they were trying to do. There was talk of a cruise ship in the St. Peter's area, in Arichat. So we would support them, but we have sort of broken this down regionally by the province, almost the same way as the travel guide is broken down.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So you see as part of your mandate to coordinate the activities of these so-called smaller tourist associations. I look at the board of directors, and a constituent of mine happens to be on it. Does the board of directors on, Page 18, along with the officers and the directors and allied directors and so on, on Page 19, reflect, in your opinion, a good regional, across-the-province mix or is it too metro dominated?
MS. CABRITA: The people who sit at the TIANS table are champions as opposed to representing a various area or a various sector, but when the nomination committee goes out to look for directors, they try to have the directors represent - look at the sectors and look at the region to try to get a balance. I think when you see the predominance perhaps of metro, you would maybe be looking at some of the alliances, who are executive directors like me, whose jobs are to be in the industry. We try very hard to make it regional but then, of course, we have the regional tourist associations who also strengthen that representation because we work very closely with them.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I may for members present, just one more before we go back to our speaker's list. During your comments you identified a topic that is near and dear to my heart and the constituents of mine, and that is a concern about the loss of coastal properties to non-resident ownership. How did your association identify that, or what is the source of the concern from your association's perspective, maybe I could word it that way?
MS. CABRITA: I guess as stewards of the industry and sustainable development being very much a part of what we are involved in, we see what is happening with the coastline and the fact that we have been calling for many years for the coastline of Nova Scotia to be examined for its fragilities and its development potential so that we strategically develop that and it really needs to be - it is just something that is so major in the development of the tourism industry and the access we market, So Much To Sea, and we feel that we need to make very sure that we have a sea coast for our visitors to enjoy and that it is not totally eaten up by private investors.
We see a great surge of foreign investment coming in and buying up our coastline before we have decided what we need to do with our coastline and it should be the other way around. Nova Scotians should have decided what they wanted to do with their coastline before it was completely taken away from them.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. If we can go back to our speaker's list, the second time around.
MR. CORBETT: Maybe in a way of a statement first, something that the member for Yarmouth said, that maybe what is going on down at Rodd's Grand Hotel is something that, I certainly don't think your association has to be the leader in and I don't think - I don't want to put words in your mouth - that is seen as your role as one with human resources, as involved an employer and its employees directly. I would say that maybe if we had adequate legislation where both parties could sit together at the table equally and resolve their differences in a more amiable way, then maybe we would not have this situation.
Anyway, that is where that is at. Ms. Fiander you may want to answer this, I don't know, but I will throw it out, in particular on Page 12, when you talk about the human resources, is there a lack of skilled people in this industry? I know in industrial Cape Breton, for instance, UCCB has a very good program. I find a lot of their graduates a lot of times don't stick around here. They end up going for training elsewhere and end up in Western Canada and so on. Is that part of the drain or are we just not training people properly for the jobs that are out there?
MS. FIANDER: We have approximately 13 post-secondary institutions offering post-secondary training in tourism, but the industry for the first time - and I think in a lot of industries we are seeing skilled labour shortages and even though in Cape Breton you may still have people on unemployment, this year for the first time - industry is telling us they filled the positions not with people who had the skills to do it. So it is a number of things. It is a smaller labour pool to attract from so we have a lot of work to do attracting people into the tourism industry and we do work on career awareness to try to do that.
There are a lot of employment issues and we have just established an Employment Task Force, that it is industry and government. One of the concerns, of course, is when
government subsidizes a call centre in a low unemployment area like metro when really you are just taking employees from one sector and moving them into another; it doesn't create new employment. So there are a number of concerns when unemployment is as low as it has been. The next few years are going to be crucial as well as our economy continues to boom. So there are a number of labour issues.
We have been seen as an industry that attracts people in for the short term and our message really is that the careers in tourism have been identified. They are good career paths and good opportunities and so we need to kind of continue to do more work on the HR side and in the secondary system right through. There are a number of labour issues in our industry and, again, the pool is smaller to select from.
MR. CORBETT: With that in mind, as much as I think we would like to see it be a 12 month a year industry, the reality is it is some way off. What do you say to the person who invests money into an education for by and large, and you can give me the numbers if you wish, but the average salary is perceived to be low and the fact that it is not a full-time job, if you will. It may be six months; that may be very, very high expectations for some, a six month job in the tourism . . .
MS. FIANDER: There are certainly some considerations in rural parts of Nova Scotia. I think the extension of the season is a positive thing. People will stay if they know that the work is there and they can work their way up. I know it is a very big misconception about work in our industry, about the value of it, and employment rates. We have done lots of work and we have lots of statistics which I can certainly share with you. There are 417 occupations over eight sectors in the industry and the career paths have been identified. There are very good career positions and that is part of the message, I guess, that we endeavour to get out. So in terms of extending the season, the argument that we don't have the people to do it, I think if we have the jobs to provide for them, they would not be leaving to come to metro. They would stay in their rural area if they could gain the skills. So it is not that easy.
The other thing we are looking at is the seasonality in some other industries and utilizing people who are in a truly seasonal industry and perhaps the transferability of those skills into our sector where employment could be year around.
MR. CORBETT: Maybe back to you, Ms. Cabrita. When people come to this province, do you have a top 10 list why they come here? Is it the natural beauty, is it the hiking trails, is it Louisbourg? Do you have a quantified list of those things?
MS. CABRITA: I think people come here for a variety of reasons, but probably if you are looking at the North American visitor, they are coming because of our history and if you are looking at the European visitor, they are probably coming more for our culture, but certainly the magic of Nova Scotia is the fact that we have such a myriad of vistas and such a multicultural background. It is sort of a whole package. It is the fact that we have this
beauty, this culture, we have safety and access to the sea, hopefully forever, and we just have so much richness to provide. We have Cape Breton Island; that is another thing that I didn't mention earlier, that has put us on the world stage, the fact that it got to be one of the top islands in the world. It is all of those things. It is our weather, just so many things. So I think if it is a top thing, it is the history for the North American and the culture for the European.
MR. CORBETT: I think I am going to get a yank here in a second so I will throw a bunch at you all at once and you can answer all or none: the role the casinos play in attracting tourism; our indigenous people, their role in tourism; and eco-tourism, even the ugly sites, because in another life I sat in on a conference in Louisbourg one day about three years ago and had a gentleman from the Northwest Territories extolling the virtues of the Muggah Creek tar ponds as a possible tourist destination. It is a stretch. It happened in the Love Canal in Buffalo and how they . . .
MS. CABRITA: Once you clean them up.
MR. CORBETT: . . . turned a negative into a positive. I throw those at you.
MS. CABRITA: Well, I guess the casino, given the potential to be able to operate truly as a casino, probably would bring in a lot more from the tourism side. The casino does something. In the 1950's you used to pick up your AAA book and you saw that a hotel had a pool so you said, it must be a good hotel. You didn't have your swimming suit with you but you went to that hotel from the myriad of hotels you had to choose from. When people are looking at Nova Scotia and when they are thinking of Canada as being very backward or very small town and they look and see that you have a casino, it sort of puts you at this level of the fact that you are a little bit more cosmopolitan. So it has a little bit of play that way. Certainly it is part of a product that is accepted world-wide, that it is expected world-wide so it does play a key role. We wish they would partner more with the industry. We have tried to make that marriage.
As far as our indigenous people, if you are speaking about our aboriginal people, that is a product that is just waiting to be discovered. If you see a travel guide in Germany, if you walk into a travel agency and see Canada, you see an aboriginal in full dress and a mountain behind him. Somebody said to me one time that when you go to London you don't see people walking around in steel suits like the knights of the past, but there is a magic to our aboriginal community. We have been working very hard to find a way to bring that product into the mix. You can't interfere with religious ceremonies and that is something that the tourist wants to see. Somebody suggested to me the other day about a resurgence of lacrosse. I think what is happening in Debert is another thing that is a silent sleeper that may evolve. So it is certainly a part of our history and a part of our culture that we should be celebrating and we should be finding a way for our visitors to enjoy. It has to come from them, we can't force it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Cabrita, I didn't hear your comment on Muggah Creek.
MS. CABRITA: Well, fix it up, maybe it will be. There are all kinds of tourism. We constantly talk about the leisure side of tourism and there is a business side of tourism so if something was to be happening to fix up the tar ponds, I am sure we would have all kinds of business people coming in and that is tourism, too.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Environmentalists. Thank you, Mr. Corbett.
The honourable member for Annapolis.
MR. FRANK CHIPMAN: Mr. Chairman, we were talking about coastline being bought up by foreign interests. I guess I have a different viewpoint on that. The land is available now to Nova Scotians. It has been available for years and sits there now. Unfortunately we do have a commodity. When I look at the development that has gone on around my area because of people buying it up, and I am not talking about foreign interests, I am also talking about local interests. Local interests have bought them and sold them to local people and foreigners or whoever have come in and bought up these properties.
Actually, I guess there are two sides to each coin, and maybe in a way we can look at it and say we are at fault, because I believe some of the government tourism publications are printed in Deutsch and they go to Germany. There are pictures of my home area there in Port George, the old lighthouse, all types of property in this province, beautiful properties and these people - we'll say Germans, for example - they will get this publication, they will come here and they will see how cheap land is in this area. It is available to us all.
I guess the other thing - and this does give us access to the shoreline - is in regard to wharves. We have all known that the federal government has downloaded to the small-craft harbours, a lot of the wharves. We had six in my constituency damaged in the last storm here a couple of weeks ago. I guess I would ask you, would you endorse or support any efforts to have the federal government maintain these facilities? They are definitely highways to the seas; they are access to fishermen; they are access for tourism; and they are also for whale watching, all types of activities, tuna fishing, whatever goes on in these areas. Would you support any initiative by any group to lobby or . . .
MS. CABRITA: We are already involved with the Coastal Communities Network. I attended the last session that they had, where they brought the 30 groups together. We actually have a person in our office who works full time on ecotourism and sustainable development as part of the product that we have that we work on.
Just going back to your coastal question, I think what we are talking about is strategic planning and the fact that we have not mapped our scenic coastline to decide where development should take place and taking charge of that.
Certainly, as far as the wharves are concerned, they are crucial. There is not even a rationale by the federal government, they haven't published a rationale as to why they are divesting of them. It is like the navigational aids, they just decided, unequivocally, one in every six was going to go, and it didn't matter whether it was strategically placed or not.
There is another concern with that, with Shelburne for instance, where there is a whole market out there for sailing vessels to be coming into our beautiful coastline, and without those navigational aids we will not be able to draw those boaters. They are a very lucrative market to try to attract, and that is a major concern for us.
MR. CHIPMAN: Yes. In the Municipality of Annapolis, two years ago there was a lot of concern at that time about the maintenance of these wharves. They set a fund aside, I think $70,000 which they would allocate to any wharf that needed any amount of money for repairs up to $10,000, but there has never been any money forthcoming from the federal government.
I know the municipality and the provinces made a request to the federal government for some assistance on the damage these wharves had had, not only in my constituency but in Guysborough County, and probably others throughout the province; they are critical and the fishermen certainly need them.
I guess the other thing I question is if we ever had a disaster similar to Swissair, the wharves are gone, how do we go from land to the sea? Helicopters are not going to be able to and airplanes will not be able to get there.
MS. CABRITA: We feel it is very irresponsible. Even a working wharf, with the fishermen there, is an attraction for our visitors.
MR. CHIPMAN: Absolutely.
MS. CABRITA: It is a major concern. If there is anything that you think we should be doing, we will do it.
MR. CHIPMAN: Thank you.
MR. HENDSBEE: I found a few questions here. In regard to your tourist tracking systems - you are able to identify their origin - how many of them are internal versus external tourists? They say the definition of a tourist is if you travel more than 25 miles you are considered a tourist so, for instance, how much of the tourism clientele is from the province itself, versus externally?
MS. CABRITA: About 40 per cent.
MR. HENDSBEE: About 40 per cent, okay. You also made comment about the casinos, and that was one of the questions I was going to ask, your opinion on the impacts of those casinos.
Secondly, would be your concern about Sunday shopping and having Sunday shopping access - main street versus the malls - do you have any opinions on that?
MS. CABRITA: Well, first of all, we call it seven day shopping or being open for business, or year-round shopping.
I think that one of the things that we have been working with the Hotel Association and the retail community, is to look at managing that. People think of it as incremental hours, whereas it may be just responding to the customer demand. If the customer is demanding and wanting, if there is a market that is ready there for being open on that seventh day of the week, maybe you don't stay open on Monday night and it is the same amount of hours. It is not only the tourism industry now that is looking at seven day shopping, it is the retail sector, as well, because that is what their customers are telling them.
[2:30 p.m.]
MR. HENDSBEE: In regard to that, do you find that, for instance, the small business owners are feeling pressure by the malls to be open, or is it better to have the guy on the street open his own hours and let him decide if he wants to be open Sunday, Monday or Tuesday?
MS. CABRITA: Well, that is certainly TIANS's position, that the choice should be in the hands of the businessman who is paying the taxes and not in the hands of government.
MR. HENDSBEE: In regard to tourism shopping, do you find that they are going to the malls more, or just to the local main street areas or local shops?
MS. CABRITA: It depends. If it is Icelandair, they are probably going to Canadian Tire to get car parts. You only need to drive around Bayers Lake on Saturday and see all those Moncton cars that are there - that is tourism - or go into Baddeck where all the little shops are and there are cars from all over the place.
I think it is just what people are looking for. But with technology, it is all going to change anyway. I read something yesterday that the stores in the shopping malls are just going to be distribution points for things that are being delivered off the Internet. It is all very much in a state of flux. If we do have seven day shopping, for that little person that is in the mall with an individual shop, it may be hard at first but the next time he renews his lease, the pressure will probably be there to let him do what he wants to do.
MR. HENDSBEE: Now, with regard to your comments about coastlines, protection and stuff, I am somewhat of two opinions on that. Foreign ownership, I believe, is important; selling our properties brings in dollars, brings in people from away. They probably bring in friends and family from away to come visit, utilize their properties.
I think it is good in one aspect but the second aspect is probably not good for the municipalities, for the tax base where some people are buying the land and not developing it. They want to keep it as raw and as natural as possible. They are not used to it back home in Europe or elsewhere because of the density of populations or scarce places. So I am of two opinions on that.
In regard to water access, or basically anything above the high water mark is private property and anything below that, the beaches and stuff, are considered Crown or public property. I had the benefit of seeing a demonstration or information about water trails and stuff like that. I think it is a good way to promote those things. But I think there has to be a balance, I agree, in regard to having access and safety areas, to stop by, or camping sites along the water trails.
I wanted to ask you about motor homes, not motor coaches but motor homes. You say about 40 per cent of our tourism market is from our own province. Do you find that our motor home industry is probably over-taxed because of the registrations? The registration policies, right now - we don't have a motor home licencing practice, like other provinces do. Right now, they are just charged under the Motor Vehicle Act as a heavy device. Do you think that there might be an opportunity for TIANS to have an opinion on that?
MS. CABRITA: We certainly don't have one at the moment but I could do some research on the cause and effect.
MR. HENDSBEE: A couple of last questions. In regard to our natural resources, scenic lands and stuff, you talk about the environment, the impact of development. Would you have any comments about industrial practices of pulp and wood production in this province? Is clear-cutting a problem for our tourism?
MS. CABRITA: Very much so. It is not only a problem from the vistas, in other provinces, like New Brunswick, you have to have a barrier between the clear-cutting and the highway. We see other provinces taking very proactive measures on how that affects. The run-off from rain, when you clear-cut, can destroy somebody's campground. We have done a lot of research in that area but, certainly, from a visual point of view, clear-cutting is disastrous for our industry.
MR. HENDSBEE: Unless there is a golf course going in?
MS. CABRITA: Well, even that needs to be strategically done.
MR. HENDSBEE: My last question is in regard to Page 11, Item 13, Branding. Could you explain that terminology? "Branding by large chains reducing individually . . .". Can you just explain that to me, I am a little clouded on what that basically means.
MS. CABRITA: I could give you a good example of branding; where we change the flag on the Delta or when the Chateau Halifax became the Hotel Halifax when there was a change in ownership, now it is the Delta Halifax, so it has changed the brand. So as we see more of this branding coming in, and Days Inn is a great example of that with the Holiday Inn in Sydney, they put their brand on. One of the things that that does is sort of a question of balance again, the fact that you find the larger companies coming in, and perhaps if it is a private operator and they are able to sell and put a brand on their property, that there is access to financing and fixing up capital infrastructure, et cetera, so there is a balance there, but it is also taking away the individuality of our province.
MR. HENDSBEE: In further regard to the franchising done by the hotel chains, I believe there are two different hotels in this capital city region that are owned by the same corporation, the Westin - and you think that is one if its competitors, I am not sure it is the Sheraton, whatever, it is one of the other hotel chains - you would think they would be opposite but they are the same owners.
MS. CABRITA: It is an interesting situation that has developed there. I think the tragedy was in losing the CP mark from this area because the CP mark carries a lot of weight, in particular with the German or the European market place. To have two Deltas not internationally known as well in that level of the market place, although we may have the product, it is going to be interesting to see how that gets managed and what the strategic plan is within the Delta corporation for that property. The manager of the Delta Barrington has moved over to the Delta Halifax. Down the road what their plans are, I don't know.
MR. HENDSBEE: Further to the branding, or the franchising, or to the mergers, do you feel that they might be trying to cause, or make an oligopoly of room rates in certain areas?
MS. CABRITA: I am not aware of that as being part of any plan. Certainly there is a concern that we will price ourselves out of the market, so we need to be watching what everybody is doing in that regard. What is happening when we have an extravaganza like the Tall Ships, people gouged the market, what kind of a message does that take back and that kind of thing. We try to guide, advise and watch.
MR. HENDSBEE: In regard to our hotel chains or small motor inns, be it Keddy's or be it Wandlyn, the chains that have just gone through some financial difficulties, would the industry have any comment in regard to those types of accommodations as to why they are having difficulties? What is your opinion as an industry as to why they are having difficulty?
MS. CABRITA: We don't have a tourism loan board.
MR. HENDSBEE: Okay. My last question will be in regard to the authenticity of folk art and crafts. Do you think there should be a policy of having these local things more authentic to the local areas or do you have no problem with having these mass-produced knick-knacks from Japan or Taiwan? You look at Peggy's Cove lighthouse symbol, flip it over and it is from Taiwan. Any opinions on that?
MS. CABRITA: It certainly concerns me. We have a phenomenal craft industry in Nova Scotia. There is the Nova Scotia Designer Crafts Council, et cetera, that juries some of these, and we have Studio Rally. We would like to see authenticity at all times, but there is a market for the cheaper product, I guess, and that is what that is gearing for. Hopefully the people who have discerning tastes will go for the authentic Nova Scotia.
MR. HENDSBEE: How would the members of the association feel about trying to bring in an authenticity, local content?
MS. CABRITA: We certainly would encourage that but we don't interfere with businesses and their strategic plans as to what they think their market is. That is their decision, o discern their own market and deal with it.
MR. DOWNE: The issue on the regulations - we talked about motor coaches, and what is happening is we are having a fairly significant number of people, whether it is down in Yarmouth or in Cape Breton, they have these little van pools. The regulatory side of this has been a concern of mine. We have been working in the Department of Transportation for quite some time with it.
The coach lines are coming out, and they have fairly restrictive standards which are what I actually support in regard to safety and insurability and things of that nature, where you have a lot of these bootleg or back-room van pools that are out there that have no real regulatory regime in place. They advertise in a flyer, come drive with me, I will take you to Halifax for $49.99 or $29.99, whatever the figure is, and there is no real regulation or enforcement of the driver, how many hours they have worked, the insurability of the van to make sure that when tourists do land that they have proper insurability, other than just the normal safety inspection, whereas a motor coach or another level of transportation has a much more stringent testing procedure.
That is something that is under way and I don't know where it is right now, but it is one that I really think should be looked into. I have some concerns about that because there is going to be an accident by one of these individuals. It is one thing when you are in Cancun or some godforsaken spot where they have these guys driving around, it is not fit to drive with them but you are with them anyway, but it is a problem here.
MS. CABRITA: Very much so.
MR. DOWNE: The tourism association would support a stronger regulatory system, not less of a regulatory system in place but a stronger regulatory system, in place to make sure that motoring tourists are secure.
MS. CABRITA: There are two elements there. We have been calling for re-regulation. We think that people who are taking a paying person, whether it is one or it is 29, should have to be accountable for liability and maintenance and safety. We have been calling for re-regulation for a long time. We have been working with the Department of Transportation over many years on that effort. We were told, it was waiting for the national to come down. Now that the national body has decided, the provinces and the territories have decided not to act on re-regulation, we are calling on the Department of Transportation in Nova Scotia to take that action.
I think it is a very good example of how private industry will come into the market place when there is an opening. Everybody was so afraid of all the cut-down with Acadian Lines going to be subsidized and what would happen with charter rates. You see where they have cut back that there is private enterprise that has come forward with these vans. Our understanding and the research and study that was done with Voluntary Planning is that they want regulation, they want to be able to meet the cruise ships and they can't because they are sort of classified as taxis. It is a major problem, and if you are taking a customer, whether it is one or 100, you should be regulated in some way. We support you on that.
MR. DOWNE: Thank you. Agriculture is doing a bit of an awareness issue here now, and without question when you go to rural Nova Scotia one of the intrinsic scenic views and values of it is when you drive through Annapolis Valley or other agricultural areas and see agriculture at work, it does have a marketing value; like fisheries or other sectors. There is a need to bring together departments in these promotional activities or at least in acknowledging their awareness is important in trying to bring those together.
There is a young girl doing a research study now at AC, and doing questionnaries on it and looking at how they can get into everything from bed and breakfasts, farm visitations, farm awareness, tourists from different parts of the world, certainly the cities - New York - coming down to visit, a farm is really important for their kids to see what the animals really look like, that milk doesn't come from a carton, it comes from a cow, that type of thing. I think we can do more on those type of things. I think they are a part of the soft sell of Nova Scotia that is important.
MS. CABRITA: Very much so. Agri-tourism is growing. It is being celebrated in Quebec. A whole part of their travel guide is devoted to agri-tourism. I said, when I was speaking earlier, that tourism is so interdependent and we depend on fishing and the agriculture as part of our charm, part of our history and part of our culture.
MR. DOWNE: Two last points. One is on the issue of foreign investment. I guess I am like my colleagues here, of different minds on the issue. Number one, my concern about foreign investment is - I understand that they put a lot of capital in their communities. They spend money to buy boats, they build this, they build that, but they are only here part of the year. Again, for them, spending a couple of hundred thousand dollars seems to be very insignificant. It puts a tremendous pressure on the average rural Nova Scotian to acquire land because all of a sudden, land values have sky-rocketed on coastal areas. It impedes against the average rural Nova Scotian to try to acquire those properties.
Number two is that the tax evaluations go up so much - not only from the purchase point of view but from the tax point of view - the average person in some of these rural communities, especially on the coastal side - are paying such a large amount of tax, it is stopping them from being able to control that property.
I don't quite agree with going to a P.E.I. scenario, as such, but I do think that there should be a two-tiered tax system for foreign ownership. Foreign ownership, in my definition - because if you go to Access Nova Scotia or if you go to Housing and Municipal Affairs, or you go to DNR, all have a different interpretation of foreign ownership.
Foreign ownership to me is outside of Canada, at this point. If you live in Pictou and you buy a piece of property in Lunenburg County, you are considered a foreigner by some definition of the bureaucracy. I think it should be outside of that and I think they should have a two-tiered tax system. It is very hard to implement but there has to be some way to allow the average person out there reasonable access or opportunity to be able to buy. It is great if you are selling but it is very difficult if you are a young person trying to acquire these lands and you know how they have gone up.
The last point, I think, is one of the most important issues that we have all talked about here today, that is bringing the tourists here. The concerns that my colleague, the member for Yarmouth, had brought out, what is happening in Yarmouth with their international airport, the $400 expense and things of that nature. Yarmouth is a gateway of opportunity, in my view, from a tourism point of view. If you get them there, you have to get them there, you have to keep them there. That is up to the industry to be aggressive enough to pursue that.
I think the airport issue is a legitimate concern, the same is true with Cape Breton and very true with, now, the privatization of the Halifax International Airport Authority.
MS. CABRITA: That's true.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Chairman, I haven't been on committees long enough to know whether a motion is in order or a recommendation is in order, but I would hope that this committee, realizing the importance to economic development that tourism is, that we would
consider some communication, whether through a motion or a recommendation of the Chair, or whatever, to do whatever we can to further enhance - whether it is Icelandair or other carriers, to come and utilize our air space and our airports as a form of economic development, not only from a tourism point of view but the spin-off will be even greater from an industry point of view, local access.
I don't know if it takes a unanimous decision to do this, it is not a political issue, to me it is just a real issue. I would hope that my colleagues who outnumber us would agree that we could put a motion together to support, really, what tourism is saying, to further enhance the opportunities.
This is a federal jurisdiction here. This is not a provincial problem. This is a federal jurisdiction, to be, very strongly, fighting toward better access and better control of air space in the Province of Nova Scotia so that we can expand tourism and opportunities in different regions of the Province of Nova Scotia.
MR. HURLBURT: If that is a motion, I would second that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if I may, perhaps we could clarify it somewhat, the idea being, if you want to word a motion, I think that the committee is prepared. We could endorse that. We are talking about regional airports, too, I assume, Mr. Downe. We are not just talking Halifax International.
MR. DOWNE: As I mentioned earlier, as my colleague the member for Yarmouth, I totally agree with him, up in Cape Breton, in the Sydney Airport, we have three main airports here that I think can benefit and our communities can benefit and the tourism sector can benefit if we send a strong message . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Downe, perhaps you could just draft up a quick resolution, and we could continue with Mr. MacAskill's questions; Mr. MacAskill is the last speaker I have on the list and then we could consider your motion.
MR. DOWNE: I have something written down but maybe if I could take one of my staff here to just kind of get a wordsmith.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed?
MR. DOWNE: Do we have a problem with that? Is there any problem with that because there is no (Interruptions) Well, I agree with you on wharves, because I have a problem in my riding with wharves and the federal government disbanding its responsibility and selling them off. Now they have become nobody's territory and no province wants to take them over because they can't afford to run them, and the poor fishermen in the local communities are forced to do the upgrade and the upkeep. They will give them to them for
a buck, and 20 years from now we are going to have a disaster in the wharf capacity, but if we can just deal with airports at this point in time . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: If I can cut you off there, we have a conversation happening between members and I have Mr. Dooks recognized.
MR. DOOKS: I was just wondering, Mr. Chairman, is it the mandate of this committee to make this type of recommendation through a motion - I just question that - or would a letter of interest serve the same purpose? I guess I would have to question that. I know it comes in good . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am under the impression, or I do know that in past meetings we have passed motions; in fact I believe at our last meeting there was a motion of support made by the Chairman at that time concerning the 80/20 rule. At this stage I would like Mr. Downe to come up with something more specific. Not to take time of Ms. Cabrita and so on, but Don, would you . . .
MR. DOWNE: I was wondering if Mr. Hurlburt and maybe Frank, if the three of us could sit down for a minute and see if we can get the wording before we even bring it in, to speed the process up, if we are in agreement.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure. Let's recognize Mr. MacAskill's question now if we could.
MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Chairman, I want to go back to the beginning.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have 10 minutes.
MR. MACASKILL: Okay, I won't be long.
MR. CORBETT: Somebody says that Kenny has been around since the beginning of time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the record show that Mr. Corbett's sarcastic comment about your age is not appreciated, right, Ken?
MR. MACASKILL: You talked about tolls and that there were no repercussions from tolls. An issue that we haven't touched on today, and it is an environmental issue and it could greatly enhance tourism in Halifax, and that is the harbour clean-up.
MS. CABRITA: Very much so.
MR. MACASKILL: We have one of the best harbours probably in the world but it has this drawback, the clean-up. My understanding is it is going to be cleaned with HRM bearing the brunt, be it through water tax, it is going to be some sort of user pay, but isn't that a toll?
MS. CABRITA: Yes, I guess it is.
MR. MACASKILL: So the same could be said for our highways. If we enhance our highways to make them attractive to tourism, I can't see anything wrong with tolls. In my riding we have two little ferries, so we are used to tolls. I think to clean up the Halifax Harbour is going to be a significant boost to this city. I think it will enhance and increase tourist traffic, through cruise ships, vessels, yachts and many other activities relative to seaports.
The next issue I want to bring up is winter tourism and the issue of Ski Cape Smokey. The development of winter activity in my riding does not seem to be supported by government because it does pay its way, but that little facility or that ski resort does an awful lot for tourism in that small area. Don't you feel, as an industry, that the government should look at these things and balance them out? Some will pay their way and some others won't, but at the end of the day or at the end of the season, there is still a contribution made by some of these industries, or resorts, or activities that don't pay their way?
There are some accommodation operators down there who have borrowed money to build accommodations based on the fact that they would remain open 12 months of the year. Now these people are caught with facilities that they have to make their payments 12 months of the year and no clientele to offset that cost. I think it is very unfair. I think we should be doing more to encourage government, that everybody can't pay their way. There are some businesses and some developments that are not going to pay their way and have money in the bank all the time. I just bring that to your attention and probably seek your support and get your reaction to it.
MS. CABRITA: Well, certainly our industry wouldn't be supportive of grants but we would be supportive of the working together and perhaps some creative financing that would help people. There are a lot of things at stake here. I mentioned business occupancy tax, that is another major constraint to staying open for the winter and it encourages the underground economy for somebody to open up this weekend or that weekend and let somebody in, but if he was to advertise he was opening, business occupancy tax would apply. So I think we need to look at what are the incentives to make people stay open longer and how can we assist them without giving them preferential treatment and the fact that you would give them some sort of a grant to remain open.
The interdependence between the ski hill and the accommodations and with the retail and with the food establishments is there needs to be more cohesiveness in working together and seeing what are the constraints and how can we help them. It is Nova Scotia Power and
the tax system and the fact that poor old Smokey is sitting there with salt water right there to melt it all the time, and those kinds of things. I certainly think it is really worth looking at and recognizing the economic benefit that is coming in to the community and how can we assist them to reach their objectives.
MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Chairman, that is all for today.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hendsbee, I am going to give you the final question.
MR. HENDSBEE: I just have three quick points or two questions, in fact. I agree with your point about business occupancy tax. I would like to see it obliterated and perhaps incorporated in commercial tax rates. Personally, I don't think that this occupancy tax should be around. It is just another level of bureaucracy which I think could be simplified.
In regard to the comments earlier about the motorcoach regulations, et cetera and there has been some talk about the small van tours and stuff like that. I like to call them the LTVs, the local touring vehicles. I am sure that we had some local experiences here in Halifax. Friends of mine who ran Ambassatours had quite a cumbersome time getting approvals for their executive mini-coach that they have. Then we have the Gray Lines trolley bus. Then we have the Harbour Hopper. Those are what I call great tourism vehicles in the metro area but I am sure they had a heck of a time getting through the Utility Review Board or the motorcoach licensing. I agree that there should be some revamping and updating of those regulations.
My question to you has to do with the taxi industry. I see that you have a certified taxicab driver program. What should be done in regard to trying to improve the taxi industry? I know here in Halifax this is quite an issue in regard to should the quantity or the quality be regulated. Do you have any comments on that?
MS. CABRITA: Actually Darlene is working directly with the taxis so I will let her handle that one.
MS. FIANDER: The concern with the taxi industry, and unfortunately the regulations that were established for the industry were not only endorsed by the people who were to endorse it, but also the industry itself did not take leadership roles. So the tourism industry, which the taxi industry is part of, got tired of the quality of the cars and the drivers so right now in the metro area we have two different standards for taxis. For those drivers who want to service the downtown market, they have to meet much higher requirements than the one you may get at your door. That is very unfortunate because the legislation is there to support higher standards. It is just not happening.
[3:00 p.m.]
There are a lot of issues within the taxi industry itself because a number of the initiatives have to be supported by the drivers, and there is zoning all over the province. There are a number of issues that I know that you are familiar with because of your work on council, but what we have attempted to do over the last few years, we have approximately 200 drivers now in Nova Scotia who are actually certified to national standards.
It is a small piece of a very large industry, but we would very much support consistency in your own regulations, I guess, and I know it is municipal, but it creates a lot of divisiveness within the sector. We have been working very hard to raise the standards because it is the first point of contact at the airport and usually the last person somebody sees if they are leaving the destination.
MR. HENDSBEE: Would you see perhaps in trying to elevate the quality of our drivers that perhaps if they had gone through, for instance, a TIANS certified taxicab driver program so that perhaps they might get a reduction and a rebate on their license or registration of their vehicles?
MS. FIANDER: The fees are so minimal. The issue with the drivers is that it is all over the place. There is a small fee here, a small fee here, a small fee here. Compared to other cities they pay very little in terms of entering a profession and maintaining their licence in a profession. I believe it is comparable to a hunting guide licence in some cases. I think it is the process for them to obtain different things at different departments.
The TIANS certification is actually a national certification. We just administer the process. I don't believe that the incentive should be a reduction in their fee. I think it is a small investment in their own profession. So it is a small amount of money to kind of reach a national standard. I don't think the incentive for them within the industry is that they will get some sort of rebate. That has not worked. Although they tell you money is a motivator, I don't believe it is.
MR. HENDSBEE: A last question in regard to the Halifax International Airport transfer. I am talking about having a user fee tax for people coming in or going out. What is your opinion on that? Is this a tax that is going to be used to cover up our environmental problems or what?
MS. CABRITA: We certainly would not support that - and we have been sitting with the Halifax authority - that if you add the $10 and you had a family of four coming in, that is $40. That is quite a bit to be adding to somebody's vacation. For business travels I think it would be a disincentive to be coming to Halifax or Sydney or wherever. I don't know what Sydney is doing about that.(Interruptions)
MR. CORBETT: It is $10 to go out.
MR. HENDSBEE: Got rid of the causeway, but now you get it going to the airport.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Judith, if I may, our two hour committee meeting has flown by, and I think a lot of it is because of the good presentation you initially presented and the discussion it generated. I just offer you a couple of moments, if you wish, to wrap up and then we will move on to Mr. Downe's motion and just those couple of items of committee business. So, in conclusion, if you have anything to offer, we certainly look forward to your comments.
MS. CABRITA: A couple of things. First of all, Darlene and I are grateful for the opportunity, as well, to talk to you. I think the time is very propitious to be looking at the political will - whether it comes to air access or it comes to protecting our wharves - and coming together for the betterment of Nova Scotia. All of these issues are very important to the quality of life in Nova Scotia and I think that is where tourism really does impact on the quality of life and it is about taking care of our communities. That is not a political issue, but it really does take the political will to be able to accomplish them so that all Nova Scotians benefit. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: On behalf of the committee, thank you both. (Applause) You don't have to rush off. I know some of us have other commitments. A two hour meeting and we are over the time limit, but I feel obliged to go to this motion. Mr. Downe.
MR. DOWNE: That the Economic Development Committee urge the provincial government to call on the federal government to allow more competition in the airline industry so that all airports in Nova Scotia can make full use of the activities surrounding air travel as it relates to tourism and enhances our economic development.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we have a seconder to that?
MR. HURLBURT: I will second it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hurlburt seconded that. Could we have some discussion if necessary? I don't like to cut anyone off.
MR. DOWNE: We have an expert in the room on air travel.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I recognize that.
MR. DOWNE: Would it be appropriate, if the Chairman is open to it, to see if maybe Ms. Cabrita would have a comment?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It is at the discretion of the membership. I think we have a few more moments to discuss this, do we not?
Is it agreed?
It is agreed.
Ms. Cabrita, if you wouldn't mind, for Hansard, would you sit at the microphone so we can get your comments.
MS. CABRITA: The only thing I would add to that is just tourism and trade because if you are looking at economic development, it is more than just the airport. It is more than just people travel, it is cargo travel and it is all those other . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we would consider that a friendly amendment, Mr. Downe, Mr. Hurlburt?
MR. DOWNE: Absolutely.
MR. HURLBURT: Absolutely.
MS. CABRITA: And I thank you for that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No problem. Is there any discussion on the motion?
Are you ready for the question?
[That the Economic Development Committee urge the provincial government to call on the federal government to allow more competition in the airline industry so that all airports in Nova Scotia can make full use of the activities surrounding air travel as it relates to tourism and trade and enhances our economic development.]
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Thank you, Mr. Downe and Mr. Hurlburt. Could we just go to the committee business and you will note the next two items. Further, Mr. Corbett, I believe you have a list of potential witnesses for future consideration.
MR. CORBETT: A couple of topics and witnesses. I would like to present as an issue the fuel and oil price increases and the effects of the taxation on fuel oil. With that in mind, if that was to the favour of the committee, the witnesses that I have come up with are Bill Hogg, Deputy Minister of Finance; Stephen McIntosh, Canadian Oil Heat Association; and Joan Lay, Canadian Pensioners Concerned. The other issue is the provincial taxation of Devco
miners' severance. Again, the witness who comes to mind here is Bill Hogg, the Deputy Minister of Finance. Those are the two issues.
MR. HENDSBEE: My only question, will we have an opportunity to discuss those matters?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacAskill, do you have a comment?
MR. MACASKILL: I am just wondering, does that not override a committee that is already set up relative to miners' packages?
MR. CORBETT: No, I don't think so.
MR. HENDSBEE: That is one of the questions - and I am glad Mr. MacAskill has brought that to our attention - was that I thought there were other channels discussing that. I don't know if it is fair for us to discuss that while it is under negotiation with Ottawa, plus it is a federal matter. I don't think there is provincial involvement at this point on the Devco issues.
MR. CORBETT: I agree with you, but there is nothing preventing us from being involved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe, if I may respond, having talked to Mr. Taylor about this, we were looking at potential witnesses forthcoming. So on the basis of that, the NDP caucus came up with those topics and if it is the wish of the committee, we have the next two witnesses on February 22nd and March 7th set up, but it would be the next session after that which we were looking at future witnesses. Darlene, can you take us through this?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): These names came forward and it is up to the wish of the committee if they want to have them added or not. You can say yes or no and vote on it if you wish.
MR. CORBETT: Deal with them as separate issues. I will move first that we contact these three people: Bill Hogg, Deputy Minister of Finance; Stephen McIntosh, Canadian Oil Heat Association; and Joan Lay, Canadian Pensioners Concerned. The issue we will be talking about is the fuel oil price increases and taxation on fuel oil. I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do I have a seconder?
MR. HENDSBEE: I second the motion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a seconder, Mr. Hendsbee. Is there any discussion? Mr. Downe.
MR. DOWNE: Mr. Chairman, I missed the first part, but we are following along the issue here, with the HST, where there has been a bit of a windfall because of the high escalated costs and the number of concerns from those with lower incomes or fixed incomes and truckers going out of business trying to pay the bill. So we are actually having these people come in to take a look at why the spike in price and what the tax revenue would be to the province because of this spike. Then we would decide from there what impact that is having on the economy, overall.
MR. CORBETT: You have got three different facets here. You have got Department of Finance, then you have got Stephen McIntosh from the Canadian Home Oil Heat Association and Joan Lay, who is head of Canadian Pensioners Concerned; I would suspect we would hear from her issues of how it relates to people on fixed income.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Three points of view, for sure.
MR. DOWNE: Yes, you have got the refinery, as well.
MR. HENDSBEE: I have some questions with regard to Mr. MacIntosh. Would he also be representing the small independent chains like, for instance, Wilson Fuels or Greg Fuels, or should we have someone from the small chains like perhaps David Collins, or somebody, from Wilson Fuels?
MR. CORBETT: It is certainly not limited to these. These are suggestions from myself; I wouldn't say these are my suggestions and they are limited to that. If, indeed, someone says we could bring someone in that could give another view, certainly, I wouldn't mind adding them to the witness list.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Further comments from committee members?
MR. HENDSBEE: Well, I would like to see someone from the fuel industry there who is actually at the distribution end and, perhaps, how they feel about competing against - be it Esso or Irving. I think we need it from the small distributors.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a name to suggest, David?
MR. HENDSBEE: Wilsons Fuels, David Collins, is the name I would like to suggest.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you consider including . . .
MR. CORBETT: Oh, sure.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion on the motion to have this as a forthcoming topic? I would assume we are looking at March 21st for this. Ken?
MR. MACASKILL: That's fine, I think. I keep wondering, is it something we should move up, I wonder?
MR. CORBETT: Yes, I don't disagree.
MR. MACASKILL: I just thought that the offset, that may have been the direction we were going to. It is sort of an emergency.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think, perhaps, we should see if the motion passes first, if I may, on that topic. Then, perhaps, if that is your wish, we could look at a date change. Further comments on the motion?
MR. HURLBURT: Question.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
I assumed earlier that the Sonja Wood date is confirmed and the onshore-offshore petroleum technologies is confirmed?
MRS. HENRY: They are confirmed.
MR. CHAIRMAN: What do you suggest, leaving it on March 21st or bumping it up?
MR. MACASKILL: I just want to bring it to the attention of the committee, get their feelings.
MR. HENDSBEE: Are you regulated by how many times you meet? There is another Wednesday between. You have got February 29th. We do have a leap year this year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the wish of the committee?
MR. MACASKILL: Could we not have two presentations by extending the committee meeting to an extra half hour?
MRS. HENRY: Sure, we can. Or we could have two separate meetings. We could meet on the 21st and the other half on the 29th.
MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Downe?
MR. DOWNE: Well, I know the 29th is a potential but if I am driving here for the meeting and I can get two in for an extra half hour, or whatever, it would be a lot more practical for me to do two in one, than to spend another week and drive in. So as far as I am concerned, Ms. Wood . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: She is our scheduled one February 22nd. We have allocated two hours for that session.
MR. DOWNE: Yes. That would be a pretty heavy-duty one. We might take a break, if it is the wish of the committee. The committee can do whatever it wants with regard to its time zones, but I personally would like to see if we could move this up. I don't think the other ones are not important, because they are very important. I would see if we could do two; it is either that or February 29th.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed.
MR. MORASH: I just wondered if I could suggest that we go from 1:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m. and then have a break, and then go from 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. on February 22nd. I certainly agree with Mr. Downe that for those of us who are driving in, it is certainly more effective for us if we can cover two topics with one trip, at one sitting.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
MR. CORBETT: Of course it depends on the availability of witnesses.
MR. MORASH: Yes, that is right.
MR. CHAIRMAN: How do you feel about that Don?
MR. DOWNE: That's great. I didn't notice much of a break between 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m., but there must be one somewhere in there to take a few minutes for a smoke break or whatever it is you do. (Laughter) I think it would be great.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we will see how that goes, based on the availability of the witness on that day.
MR. DOWNE: Fifteen or 20 minutes is all you need.
MR. HENDSBEE: I think there is an urgency of timeline.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we are looking at February 29th, if I read the committee correctly. Is further discussion needed on this?
MR. MACASKILL: I was wondering if an hour and one-half, from 3:30 p.m to 5:00 p.m. . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, let's look at 3:30 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.
Darlene, do you have enough direction on that? I know I can contact Mr. Taylor about it if you wish. There is a second part to this though; I believe you had another topic.
MR. CORBETT: The provincial taxation and Devco miners' severance, that's the issue. The witness I see being called would be Bill Hogg, Deputy Minister of Finance.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do I have a seconder for that motion please? That is a seconder for a motion to have the Deputy Minister of Finance appear on behalf of Devco workers, correct?
MR. CORBETT: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a seconder, Mr. MacAskill.
MR. HENDSBEE: Well, like I say, I think it is more of a federal matter. To discuss it when it is under negotiations right now, I think is inappropriate.
MR. DOWNE: The fundamental issue that is being kicked around here is survival for Cape Breton Island, and industrial Cape Breton in particular. My sense is that we have all gone after Ottawa on having a reasonable package or trying to find a reasonable package for our workers, and they are in the front line of that now.
I am not speaking against the motion, but there is a broader issue here. At some point, from out committee's point of view, I think what we should be looking at is what the strategy is going to be for industrial Cape Breton as it is going through, whether it is Pit Pony, 200 jobs gone there; Devco; Sysco; and all the things that are there. We have a crisis that is going to happen in that particular part of Nova Scotia and I know with Yarmouth, when they went through the crisis, we all should have been more aggressively pursuing help for Yarmouth. We went into the Team Southwest to try to rebuild some of those areas and there is still work that needs to be done.
I think we have pockets in this province where this committee could be a lot more aggressive in trying to help. You have a 7 per cent unemployment rate in Halifax - that's great - but you have got areas in this province, whether it is Preston which happens to be in HRM, or Yarmouth that is starting to crawl back, but still needs work, and we have other areas of this province that we should be, I think, broadening our view to see what we can do to economically benefit rural Nova Scotia and some of these other areas. While the so-called
economic boom is under way, we need to start building foundations so that these individual areas will be able to grow and prosper.
That is my personal concern geographically across-the-board, not pitting one region against the other. We have areas of this province that need help and we should be focusing on that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Specifically to the motion, any more comments.
MR. CORBETT: Yes, I believe that to merely say that this is a federal matter is a crock. There are regional taxation dollars in effect here, it is one where both the federal and provincial governments can get together and talk about the impact. Certainly it has been done - it has been pointed out in British Columbia - and it should be ventured that way. We are not talking about expectant money coming into the provincial coffers, it is a one-time shot, a severance package and we should probably be helping the affected workers and alleviating as much stress on them as possible. Part of that would obviously be financial and that would be through taxation.
Some of us on this committee have been, in the previous government on this very committee, talking about the impact of the closure of Devco on the economy of Cape Breton. We spoke to many people from that area. Taxation was one of the problems. I think it is there, I don't where this idea comes from that it is being handled somewhere else. There is nobody at any table talking about taxation, there may be people talking about a negotiated labour settlement, but there is nobody that has been invested with the powers to talk about taxation, that is why I bring that forward.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
Perhaps I could have a show of hands because I don't know if I heard everyone's voice.
Would all those in favour of the motion please raise your hand. Opposed.
The motion is defeated.
MR. HENDSBEE: I am not sure if it has been discussed before this committee in the past, recently, but in regard to the Film Industry of Nova Scotia, I would like to suggest that perhaps we might have some time in the future to have people come in from the Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation and perhaps someone from Electropolis Studios, as a facility base, and perhaps someone from Salter Street Films, as a production company, in regard to . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, do you have names . . .
MR. HENDSBEE: Ann MacKenzie, Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation; Electropolis - is Bernie Smith still there?
MR. DOWNE: No, I think it is the provincial government staff person that you would want to have in, he would give you the broad picture of what is happening.
MR. HENDSBEE: What has he been assigned to now in regard . . .
MR. DOWNE: He is on his own to research the potential of that sector in the economy of Nova Scotia.
MR. HENDSBEE: I think that Mr. Smith would be a good person. Also I am sure that through the Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation, they can get us the best people from the Salter Street or Electropolis who ought to come in to speak about their facilities or services and productions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Further business. Mr. Chipman.
MR. CHIPMAN: I was wondering where the Nova Scotia Grape Growers are, when they are scheduled to come in?
MRS. HENRY: They are not scheduled yet. They are on the list somewhere, but right now we have about two confirmed and one to bring in for February 22nd. I will bring them in again. Instead of scheduling the whole witness list and then having to turn around and cancel everybody, I do it in little batches.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Further business. Sorry. Mr. Downe.
MR. DOWNE: I just wanted to simply thank you for doing a good job of chairing the meeting and I congratulate you. I want to thank the other members for their support on an issue I think we can all win on. I just want to thank the committee.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a motion for adjournment?
MR. MACASKILL: Mr. Chairman, I move that we adjourn.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The committee stands adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 3:25 p.m.]