HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

VETERANS AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

Mr. Stephen McNeil (Chairman)

Mr. Keith Bain

Mr. Patrick Dunn

Mr. Chuck Porter

Mr. Gordon Gosse

Mr. David Wilson (Sackville-Cobequid)

Mr. Percy Paris

Mr. Harold Theriault

Mr. Wayne Gaudet

[Mr. Harold Theriault was replaced by Mr. Leo Glavine.]

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Ms. Jane Hicks, Acting Associate Regional Director General

Ms. Susan Whitehouse, Acting Regional Director, Client Services

Mr. Paul Brown, District Director, Nova Scotia

Ms. Lorraine Gailey, Regional Director, Communications

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll call our meeting to order. I want to welcome our guests and thank them for coming. I'll ask the committee to introduce themselves, and then we'll have our guests introduce themselves.

[The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, everybody, for coming. I'll ask you to start your presentation.

MS. KRISTA LOCKE: Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to thank you and the other members of the standing committee for inviting us here today to provide an update on the new Veterans Charter, which was launched by my department on April 1^st of this year. In front of you, I've placed a kit and inside there are brochures on the new Veterans Charter, as well as a copy of the deck that I'll be speaking to this morning.

The first slide covers what I plan to speak about in the next 10 to 15 minutes. It will give you a profile of our clients here in Nova Scotia, provide a review of the elements of the new Veterans Charter, speak to our progress since the new Charter came into effect by giving you some of the statistics on program access, and speak about some of the changes we have instituted based on client feedback.

The second slide gives you a sense of the breakdown of VAC's diverse client base. There are three known First World War veterans, and all are over 105 years of age.

There are approximately 243,000 Second World War veteran clients. The average age of a Second World War vet is 82 years. It is an interesting fact that one in three Canadian males over the age of 85 is a veteran. This speaks volumes to how Canada answered the call for assistance in World War II. There are 14,000 Korean War veterans, with an average age of 72. There are 43,000 Canadian Forces veterans currently receiving benefits from our department. The average age of a CF client is 54. There are an estimated 303,000 former members of the Canadian Forces in Canada.

The next slide speaks to the clients in Nova Scotia receiving a disability pension, and as you can see, also in Nova Scotia, it's reflective of our very diverse client base.

The next slide, from our traditional veterans to our modern-day Canadian Forces members to the RCMP and dependants, we provide a wide variety of benefits and services.

In terms of our operations, our benefits and services are delivered through a seamless national network. The National Contact Centre is the first point of contact for clients phoning back. Whatever is not within their mandate is referred to the district Client Service Teams. Since going live three years ago, the contact centre and the TAC, Treatment Authorization Centres, have done incredible work freeing up the Client Service Teams in our district offices so that they have more time to deal with more complex cases.

The Client Service Team is an interdisciplinary team of individuals who deliver VAC programs and services to our clients. Client Service Teams apply their respective expertise to assess a client's needs and make recommendations for activities in the client case plan. They link with community partners to implement case plans, and they monitor effectiveness of the case plan. As you can see from the slide, the Client Service Teams, Senior District Medical Officer, an office nurse, paramedical and administration support, area counsellors, pension officers and assistance, and client service agents all interact with the client.

For the more complex cases, members of the Client Service Team have access to experts for case conferencing, consultation, and advice and guidance. This interdisciplinary approach has made a noticeable, positive change in how we are managing the more complex, multi-need cases for both the younger Canadian Forces veteran, as well as our wartime veterans.

On to the slide, Transition Services for Canadian Forces Members. We have some counsellors who work in our Transition Services offices, which are set up on bases and wings across the country. In Nova Scotia, we have a Transition Services Office in Halifax, the base in Halifax, as well as Greenwood. They make sure that the Canadian

Forces client is aware of what services and benefits are available from VAC and other partners.

Implementation of the New Veterans Charter - for the next few minutes, I'll speak briefly about the implementation of our new Charter. In recent years, as the role of the members of the Canadian Forces has evolved, it was also necessary for VAC to reflect those changes. Today, the average age of a releasing Canadian Forces member is 36. The new Veterans Charter was designed to assist those leaving the military so that they can transition smoothly from military to civilian life.

Delivered through the application of comprehensive case management, the programs and services available under the new Charter provide the support that Canadian Forces veterans, members, as well as their families, have told us that they need. The general feeling from staff is quite positive. They now feel that they have the tools they need to assist the Canadian Forces members and their families who are in need of our services.

For the benefit of new standing committee members, let me just review what Veterans Affairs means when we talk about a Canadian Forces veteran. A Canadian Forces veteran is any former member of the Canadian Forces, regular or reserve force, who has been released with an honourable discharge. I'll just note that while this definition recognizes the individual as a Canadian Forces veteran, other criteria must be met before the client qualifies for VAC benefits and services. It's based on need - a case management approach.

The new Charter repays a debt of gratitude to those who have served in modern operations. It is designed to support them as they transition back to civilian life, after leaving the military.

Now I'm on the slide titled Elements of the New Veterans Charter. Under the new Charter, VAC provides comprehensive rehabilitation services, financial benefits and extensive health care to Canadian Forces veterans who are medically released or who have service-related needs. The job placement component or program is available to all members who release from the military. So that is one program that is offered to all releasing members.

In addition, eligible disabled Canadian Forces veterans are compensated with lump-sum cash awards for pain and suffering. Grandfathering provisions ensure that no one will lose benefits they are currently receiving. So those who are receiving a pension under the old system will continue to receive the pension.

Implementation to date - we are very pleased with the implementation of the new Charter since it came into effect on April 1^st of this year. To be ready to deliver the

elements of the Charter at the outset of this fiscal year, our staff went through intensive training on all new programs and their operating processes in the space of a little over four weeks, just last winter, very intense training.

I'll quickly go over our latest statistics with you on program uptake. Disability Award Statistics. They are based on the latest weekly reports we receive. On a whole, uptake of the programs is slightly exceeding expectation with regard to disability awards. The turnaround time is 76 days on average. This is in keeping with our disability pension stats, as well.

Rehabilitation Statistics - applications for rehabilitation are very close to what we had projected, and we're very pleased with the uptake of this program and how it's being implemented.

Earnings Loss Statistics - there have been 886 applications received to date, 600 approved clients. With the other clients, either payments are being made under SISIP, the program under DND, and we work very closely with those partnerships to ensure that no one falls through the gaps.

Health Insurance Statistics - again, 445 applications received to date, much in keeping with what we projected. Of the 309 decisions rendered, 166 have been approved. What we found is, the ones who aren't approved are receiving health insurance from other insurers.

Job Placement Statistics - there have been 73 job placement applications received to date; 46 decisions, of which 11 are approved. Now, this is one program where the uptake was a little slower at the beginning than we expected. When we did some analysis, a lot of the job placement program was being delivered, still, by DND through the SCAN seminars and were in the midst of transitioning the responsibility of that program to Veterans Affairs. So we'll see our numbers increase. Again, the releasing members who are seeking assistance with job placements aren't falling through the gaps right now, they're still receiving it from DND.

The New Charter - a living Charter. We have heard from veterans organizations and our CF clients for the most part, that the improvements under the new Veterans Charter were the right thing to do. We have succeeded in putting our men and women in uniform first. As a result, we expect the new Veterans Charter will require us to spend an additional $1 billion over the next five years. However, the department doesn't consider this in terms of mere costs or expenses. We think of it as an investment in the future of our Canadian Forces veterans. Even so, we realize that nothing is ever perfect, change is a constant, as needs evolve. That's why we refer to this Charter as a living Charter, and it will evolve with time. We'll be constantly evaluating, receiving feedback, in order to make it better and better meet the needs of our clients.

[9:15 a.m.]

Other initiatives that we're involved in, a Bill of Rights will ensure that veterans are always treated with the respect and dignity they've earned. Our minister has expressed his commitment to ensuring the Bill of Rights is a clear, concise, comprehensive document that demonstrates our veterans have their country's full support. In addition, the appointment of an ombudsman is being planned. The aim is to make sure that veterans have a formalized, external recourse in instances where the feeling may be that the system is not meeting the veterans' needs. While our client satisfaction surveys indicate 84 per cent of our clients are satisfied with the service they receive from Veterans Affairs, we expect that with an ombudsman we will do even better.

The other way to improve our veterans' satisfaction is to make sure that all of our services match their needs. The minister has launched a comprehensive review of the services provided by Veterans Affairs. It will entail taking a close look at the very popular and effective Veterans Independence Program, as well studying our long-term care services and our treatment benefits. We will keep you informed on all these initiatives as they progress.

That's it, thank you. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have on the new Veterans Charter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for the presentation. I want to acknowledge and welcome two other members to the committee: the member for Victoria-The Lakes, Keith Bain and the member for Waverley-Fall River-Beaver Bank, Percy Paris. I'll open the floor up for questions. Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Mr. Chairman, I know that some of the members who have been here for a while have had a couple of presentations on this. The first quick question is, what's the biggest challenge for your department in delivering services? Can you tell me that?

MS. LOCKE: I would say that the biggest challenge is ensuring that all our staff is knowledgeable about the tools and services available under the new Veterans Charter for our clients. The new Veterans Charter is the biggest change that our department has faced for a long time, and it's a big shift for our own staff to embrace. As I mentioned in my presentation, the intense training that we held last winter - and that is ongoing - is helping with that transition. So far it's been very positive and very good. Like any new change, there certainly are some challenges.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): You had mentioned in an earlier round that this should evolve over time. Do you have a plan to evaluate and seek input from your staff and also the clients?

MS. LOCKE: Yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Is there a time line? I know it's new, but do you have time line of when you would go back to the clients, especially the ones who have been in it and may see changes, to try to get their feedback?

MS. LOCKE: Certainly there is informal feedback happening continually, but there is a plan in place to put a more formal evaluation in place.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I remember from the last presentation that we received, one of the things I thought was great to see was around the support of the family. If a member was unable to be retrained or re-educated or go back to school, that the offer was going to be for the spouse. Has anybody taken that on as of yet?

MS. LOCKE: Yes.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): We all know the impact of Afghanistan on the military and on the families who are left behind when they've lost someone overseas in Afghanistan. Those families - can you reassure us or tell us that those services are there for them, the retraining, especially for some of the ones with younger families and a spouse, that they'll have an opportunity to gain access to education to ensure that the future is better for them with the loss of a military spouse?

MS. LOCKE: I'll look to Paul Brown, who is the district director of one of our larger offices to speak to that point.

MR. PAUL BROWN: Certainly it's been a reality that we've all dealt with. It's a sad reality of the experience in Afghanistan, the casualties. It's a very sensitive time following the loss of a family member in service. We have a protocol that we follow, we do get in touch with the family at the appropriate time. We have to be aware of the grieving period and so on, but we reach out to the family. We let them know that we are there and that we will arrange a time when we can counsel them on services and benefits. As well, when you talk about Afghanistan - in Halifax, we host a peer support coordinator for the operational stress injury program, which is really a joint DND/Veterans Affairs program.

We certainly find with the new Veterans Charter, and with the reality of today's world, there are a lot of stress injuries involved in people who are serving in the military.

We do have an individual who works in our office in Halifax who actually has just had a tour. He was over in Cyprus as part of a de-stress operation for those who were coming back, leaving Afghanistan, coming back into Canada, just to make those individuals aware of the services that are available there as well for those who are experiencing stress injuries and so on. That's certainly a big part of our challenge, dealing with that sort of disability.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Just a quick comment and then I'll pass it on. I know we always talk about supporting services, and it seems to come down to money and stuff like that. I know from experience, Corporal Paul Davis, who was one of the casualties, was from my area. His father, who I believe is from the Bridgewater area, has started a support group for families, parents. They're not looking for funds or anything like that. Hopefully if the opportunity presents, you can support that type of assistance and that type of program to help with the grieving process.

MR. BROWN: We are plugged into that in the sense that nationally, we had the presentation from our national manager of the operational stress program. They are plugged into the new network that's forming up for grieving parents . . .

MS. LOCKE: Family members.

MR. BROWN: . . . and we're providing some training and support to them. We just haven't gotten to the point yet where we have advertised it widely, because they're just sort of in their infancy. We don't want to set them up for failure. We think that's going to be a very valuable service.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Porter.

MR. CHUCK PORTER: Thank you, folks, for coming in today and giving your presentation. This is something I hold near and dear to my heart with family [. . . no mic . . .] preparing to travel overseas. A few questions, and I certainly don't mean to sound critical [. . . no mic . . .] Talking about veterans having full support, right now 84 per cent of those people are satisfied with the service. How long before we're at 100 per cent? Or is that a reality?

MS. LOCKE: We would hope that it's reality. We're certainly working toward improving our numbers. We're satisfied with that number, but with anything under 100 per cent there's always room for improvement. We're looking at ways to constantly improve our services to our clients.

MR. PORTER: I ask that question because I think more of the veterans, those few who are left from World War I and certainly those who are left from World War II and the Korean veterans, they're quickly running out of time, and there are still issues that

hang out there. Maybe if nothing else, it would be nice to see some of those issues resolved.

Another question on health. You mentioned health coverage for all in your plan with regard to anyone who is a Canadian Forces veteran. You also mentioned other criteria, I think that was the word you used. What's the process? There's obviously some application that must be made. You talked a little about retro benefits, not a lot of detail on that, but I'm quite interested as I have members right now who are asking questions.

MS. LOCKE: I'll start, and perhaps I'll hand it over to Jane to provide some more detail, as well as Paul. Every releasing member is offered a transition interview. Through that transition interview, the counsellor can identify some of the needs of this client as they're releasing. That's the first process. Jane, did you want to add some details on the next steps?

MS. JANE HICKS: In terms of the health benefits, it's intended to fill gaps. So often when military members are releasing, they are entitled to a health care program, dependent upon the years of service and whatnot. There are certain criteria for the health benefits. Through the transition interview, we'll identify it. Certainly they can give us a call and we can say, yes, you may be eligible or not. It's intended to pick up those who wouldn't otherwise be eligible through DND, usually, typically with less than 10 years of service. Often they're not eligible for the health care program. Or sometimes with the reservists - Paul, did you want to add . . .

MR. BROWN: I'm not a reservist specialist, sorry.

MS. HICKS: Again, it's quite detailed. Certainly you can give us a call and we'd be pleased to answer any specific questions with members.

MR. PORTER: So, just as an example, you mentioned 10 years there, if I were in the military today and I served five years, and I did a tour overseas and I came home, and I decided my five years were up and I'm retiring from the military, are you telling me that I wouldn't necessarily . . .

MS. HICKS: If you weren't medically releasing, you wouldn't be eligible for health care benefits.

MR. PORTER: A question about the DVA cards. I know some of us are quite familiar with those, you see the all A's and all B's, and that has to do with health coverage, correct? There's a gentleman who comes to mind, he carries around an oxygen bottle with him, yet he's all A's and there are issues that he can't get certain coverage for things. It was all based on exposure to a gas. He would say that in the 1960s he was exposed to Agent Orange. Of course the report came back saying, well, that was mustard

gas, that's irrelevant. The fact was that there was still - there's an issue here. My question is, how do you go about making that better? Why is there an issue? This gentleman served his country, why is he . . .

MS. LOCKE: And I guess it's difficult to respond to those questions without having the details of the case, so certainly if it's brought to our attention, depending on what area the client resides, we can look into it.

MR. BROWN: And certainly this whole area of the chemical exposures - I mean, they are very much in the news and we understand that. It's very high profile right now and we've been dealing with clients for a long time who have certain health issues that they attribute to chemical exposure and so on. I guess the best thing I could say is we just have to put them in touch with their counsellor and we attempt to do a needs assessment and what services we can provide, we do provide. We certainly are aware of what's in the media, that the government is looking at certain changes for compensation and so on for those who had certain chemical exposures.

MR. PORTER: Yes, and I guess I'm concerned about what the media is doing; I certainly don't take every word verbatim. It's just interesting, I guess. It still doesn't matter if it's chemical or what it is, it's a long time coming for some of these folks who are now into their 80s or 90s, I suppose, in some cases and who, in all reality, will never see that come to an end.

I have a hard time questioning the fact that we're not doing 100 per cent of everything we can do for these people who have served this country, that bothers me in some ways, it's not right, in my opinion.

Another question with regard to . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: This will be your last question, then we'll . . .

MR. PORTER: Okay, sorry, I didn't . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, you can do this question and then we'll get you on the second round.

MR. PORTER: The pensions - veterans' pensions, widows' pensions, a veteran passes on and a widow's pension stops? It continues on?

MR. BROWN: It carries on, yes. The widow is entitled to the pension, it carries on, yes.

MS. HICKS: It depends on the circumstances and it depends on what type of pension you're talking about. Often veterans use the word "pension" quite loosely so if you're getting a disability pension, it doesn't stop. It may be reduced, depending on the level of the pension, but there is also the War Veterans Allowance, which we do have certain veterans who still receive the War Veterans Allowance and often when the veteran does pass away, the widow may, in fact, be entitled to a greater amount because often they wouldn't have had a pension. So it depends on the circumstance, but there is one that's income-based and one that's based on an injury.

[9:30 a.m.]

MR. PORTER: Okay, thanks very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Porter. Mr. Glavine.

MR. LEO GLAVINE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thanks again for coming in today. In terms of the Transition Services - and certainly a base like 14 Wing Greenwood would be a place where one would be located - is that just offered as a one-time event for the departing CF member? Is it something that people are required to engage in, in terms of getting the knowledge about possible future benefits, et cetera?

MR. BROWN: Well, I'll start with the back end. As part of the release process, it is required to have Transition Services, we're on the release card so we actually have - the member has to present themselves to Transition Services as part of the release process, in order to complete the release. That's a wonderful thing because we do that, then we do have our area counsellor who sits with the member and is able to do the counselling that Krista referred to about benefits and so on.

Having said that, we're not only available to those who are releasing. We are here at Stadacona; we have Transition Services full-time on base. We have four individuals working there and they are available for walk-up, anybody who wants to take an appointment can take an appointment. They've done, I forget how many, probably several dozen information sessions on base at various seminars that are going on on base, they will go and present about the new Veterans Charter or whatever people want to talk about. So they're there to give information about veterans services and, as well, they stay connected to the veteran. They become a client of theirs, so we do have services in place and so on. They will visit them at the home, that will be part of their caseload.

MS. HICKS: Just to build on that a little bit - with the actual transition interview, it depends on what happens within that interview and the needs that are identified. There are some that are releasing that it is very straightforward, they have a plan in place, they don't have a lot of needs and it is a fairly straightforward process.

There are others who have very complex needs and if that is the case, then, in fact, we will maybe hand it off to a case manager or spend more time with that client to ensure that their needs are met, but it all depends on the individual circumstances of that individual and what happens in that interview. There are mechanisms for them to come back into the process if, in fact, at the time of release they're doing fine but two years later or three years later if things aren't going so well, a family member or they, themselves, can call and we can work with them.

MR. BROWN: I'm sorry, I just wanted to clarify, too - we do not have a full-time presence at Greenwood, just so that it is clear. We service Greenwood from our group that is at CFB Halifax. They will travel to Greenwood, usually for two days, usually every second week. They have an office there, the staff there are well aware of when we are arriving so they take appointments, so when they arrive they have a full slate of appointments and they see the veterans. It would be wonderful to have someone there on a full-time basis but we aren't at that point yet.

MR. GLAVINE: I was actually a bit more concerned about the fact of somebody who you described, they have their own plan in place but if things do go off track a few years down the road, as you said, there can be re-entry or walk-up and get whatever counselling and support and so forth that could be available to them. I had somebody in mind in that regard, who had come into my office.

The other question I was concerned about was - you have identified the number here now, like Second World War veterans, is around 243,000; it is almost a quarter of a million Canadians. It is a phenomenal number and a challenge. Certainly, I know my colleague pointed out that perhaps 84 per cent as being satisfied. It is a very subjective thing, obviously, in terms of meeting everybody's needs.

Would there be a database on these people? What I'm wondering is, do they have to present to Veterans Affairs because now they're reaching an age or a time in their life where certainly you know their basic pension, et cetera, is not covering all their needs, and also to be made aware of this updated, more progressive approach with a lot of one-on-one and so forth, is that sort of on a needs kind of approach to Veterans Affairs, or is Veterans Affairs reaching out and saying to veterans, here's how we may be able to now help you?

MS. LOCKE: There is certainly are a significant number of veterans out there who aren't our clients and when the new Veterans Charter was being implemented, we did do a number of presentations both to bases and in communities and at various associations and partners and forums, in order to get the word out so that veterans out there who aren't our clients know that they can come back and speak to us. We do have a number of other options in place to reach out to veterans and I will let Jane speak to that as well as Paul.

I guess, to answer the question about a database, we don't have a database unless they are our client.

MS. HICKS: Unfortunately, there's no grand list of all veterans because it certainly would be useful to all of us but there are varieties. We have a number of our veterans who are not necessarily clients who belong to the local Legions who if, in fact, in a hospital, if something happens often discharge coordinators will call us and say well, we've got a veteran here, would he be entitled to any benefits or long-term care placement? So often those people will come to us through other mechanisms. Sometimes it is their family as well, who will contact us and say, listen, my parents are really struggling, he's a veteran, she's a veteran, is there anything you can do for us? Often we get a lot of people in, and unfortunately it's usually when they're in crisis or when they're having increased difficulties. There are number of ways they come in and become a client.

MR. BROWN: I'll just quickly mention, we generally focus on what we call high-risk clients. That tends to be very time-consuming. We do have what we would call low-risk clients. At least once a year, we will be in touch with that client to say, are we still meeting your need? We do a phone-out to them. We have a chance to chat, and if something has changed and their need that they haven't presented to us up until that time, we will identify it and then we can pass it on to a counsellor for a home visit, what have you.

MR. GLAVINE: One last point and question, I wouldn't feel I were doing my job here today - and I'm kind of like a guest here in a sense because I'm not a regular member of this standing committee but a fill-in - but I've had the most difficulties around Veterans Affairs in terms of widows, who really don't seem to be getting the kind of assessment that they feel strongly connected to because of their husband who was a veteran. Many of these, of course pretty well all of these people are also in their 80s. That contact through telephone should be a welcoming entry point with, I personally believe, a commitment with a personal followup.

I think that would go so far, because even if you go through and they are not entitled to any further benefits and, you have had that personal review and so forth, absolutely can be an appropriate end point for their investigation. If it isn't done, they keep coming back. Could you look into this for me, because it was never really done before. It's a point that I feel strongly about. I haven't cracked the table or anything, but I feel very strongly about this. I hope to see some improvement.

MS. LOCKE: We agree, as well. If someone is contacting our department, I would like to be assured they're receiving a rationale to any decision, whether it's positive or negative, so that they understand why that particular decision was made.

MR. BROWN: You're talking about home visits - we do home visits to widows, and we certainly have services in place, like housekeeping, grounds keeping, what have you. Again, it's always a challenge when you have your people who are very high-risk, they tend to rise to the top of the pile for that day, but we do try to connect with the widows and we do, and we are doing home visits. It's just the challenges, the workload, balancing the workload with the demands.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paris.

MR. PERCY PARIS: Mr. Chairman, good morning. My apologies for being a wee bit late. Because I was a wee bit late, I might have missed some of it, but I thought I heard during your presentation, did I hear the word ombudsman mentioned? I did. My question is, is this a new position?

MS. LOCKE: This would be a new position. They're exploring the options and doing work on this, but yes, it would be a new position.

MR. PARIS: And the role of the ombudsperson, whoever he or she may be, is to act as an advocate for anyone who has had problems within the system around access?

MS. LOCKE: Yes.

MR. PARIS: You provided us with a list of the surviving veterans who are in Canada today with respect to the Second World War, the Korean War, et cetera. You've given some numbers. All those veterans that you list, are they all receiving some type of service? They're not. My question would be, if they're not, why not?

MS. LOCKE: In Slide No. 4, where it says Nova Scotia clients receiving a disability pension . . .

MR. PARIS: No, I was looking at the client profile, the national client profile, where you list the First World War, Second World War, Korean War, et cetera. Are all of them receiving benefits? If they're not, then I'm curious . . .

MS. LOCKE: Yes, it is our client profile. Yes, on a national level these are our client numbers.

MR. BROWN: Certainly what startled me when I joined Veterans Affairs from another department was how many war veterans there are who still do not - when we speak with them, they're not seeking benefits. It really is startling. We will be in touch with these people, and they are very independent, some of them, and it's wonderful to see that some of them have maintained health and so on. If the people are in need, we do an assessment, we put services in place. There are still a fair number of veterans, it's

startling, but really, even when we contact them and ask, how are you, they're doing fine, we don't need anything, call me next year.

MR. PARIS: My father is 86 - he'll be 87 in March - a Second World War veteran, well-decorated. He speaks very highly - he has had nothing but success when it comes to the DVA. In the same breath, every now and then I come across - there has been one more recently in the paper, not directly associated to Veterans Affairs, around the 64-year marriage. My curiosity was, when I was looking at the ombudsman, who advocates on behalf of clients such as that, who may not have the ability to act on their own behalf?

MS. LOCKE: The ombudsman may play a role in this. It hasn't been clarified, exactly, all the roles and responsibilities of an ombudsman.

MR. PARIS: If I'm to assume that right now you recognize that as a void, thus the position - so, no one is doing it right now, that advocacy role?

MR. BROWN: Certainly the Legion. There is a host of veteran organizations that are advocating for veterans, it's their raison d'être. We also have client advisory groups. We have one in our own office. We have a cross-section of clients who come in every month. We get feedback from them, we tell them about what we're doing, and we get reaction to that. We have to look at changing our process or our approach or something based on what we're getting. That's happening at every district office in the country. We are trying to stay in touch with the clients.

[9:45 a.m.]

MS. LOCKE: Certainly, as Jane mentioned, as well as Paul, family members do call our offices and we provide information on benefits and services to family members as well as veterans themselves.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gosse.

MR. GORDON GOSSE: Interesting point there on the 64 years of marriage. My question was going to be, does the Department of Veterans Affairs plan on building any new long-term care facilities in the Atlantic Provinces to deal with the 300 people on the waiting list in Halifax and probably some more in Cape Breton? It's interesting, when I did read the story, because I had the same thing happen in Cape Breton. I was successful in getting the couple together in the Taigh Na Mara in Glace Bay. I was kind of fortunate, because I had the same problem and I actually got the two of them together after about three months. When I read that story, I said it must be different in Halifax than it is in Cape Breton. Maybe you could explain that.

MR. BROWN: Well, Taigh Na Mara is different because there are - you certainly know the terminology - there are community beds there and we also have contract beds in the same facility. That works in that situation. Where we have our really huge challenges are when we're dealing with a situation such as this where you have spouses who are separated. Our hearts are there as well. It's a challenge, though, if we have a facility with contract beds and there is no community bed access, and we're guided by legislation that's handed to us. Those beds are for veterans, and there are wait lists in place. So there are people waiting who are eligible, who can't get in. They have to wait their turn.

It's a challenge. We have been able to resolve these cases in the past with negotiation, with good partnership with the province, because we generally have been able to work with the province and get the spouses co-located in an area where there would be - we would just have them in the same facility as two community beds, or if we're lucky enough to have a place where we have contract beds and community beds, we can make it happen under one roof. Now, given the legislation, that's really what we are required to follow. That's really about the best we can do.

As far as what the plans are at a larger level to potentially build beds or something, I have to turn to a more learned colleague.

MS. LOCKE: I would say that at present, there are certainly no plans. We're looking at our whole long-term care strategy, and the future will determine the direction we'll go in.

MR. GOSSE: I just know that, with the numbers in your presentation, the need will definitely grow as they get older and with their health care needs. My colleague had mentioned earlier - I guess he was trying to talk about people coming into your office, and the VIP program. Being a member of this committee for a number of years, knowing the ins and outs of the VIP program - April 1981 and that - and being that my mother-in-law won't access the DVA at all. Her husband was a veteran, and I've tried everything I can as a son-in-law to get her to access the program. Some of them are like that, I do know in Cape Breton. They won't. I don't understand why, and I've been after her but I can't convince her at all. I know the department won't convince her if I can't convince her. I took her service medals and her service record, and, still, there are just some of them - she'll be 84 this year - who are not going to access it no matter what.

MS. LOCKE: We hear of cases like that all the time, that could benefit, that we could help with some of our services and programs, but who are not interested.

MR. GOSSE: You don't have any arm-twisters in the department I could send to her house? (Laughter) I just know you do get calls as an MLA, in your office, and the first thing you have to tell them is, was your husband receiving these benefits after 1981?

There was one thing I read in the program itself is that if admitted to a long-term care facility - now, if the husband was admitted to a long-term care facility and didn't apply for any of the VIP packages, but he was in that facility with Alzheimer's, dementia or some sort of illness and didn't apply, would the widow be eligible even though he didn't apply for those services but was in a long-term care facility?

MR. BROWN: This is the touchy situation. I had a case on my desk this week. It's extremely touchy, because individuals will look at their neighbour and they'll say, well, you know, they're receiving, and that's a widow and they have it, how come I can't? Of course you have to unravel it, and you go, well, it's not actually quite the same. But, again, it's tied to the fact that, ultimately, the service, originally, was for the veteran. It had to be put in place or at least initiated - you had to have initiated the process with the intention that it would be for where the veteran was living, to care for the veteran, and if the veteran then got moved to a long-term care facility, we would keep the service in place.

This is the one on my desk - the same thing I think you're referring to - same type of scenario, where the admission to the long-term care facility happened before we actually initiated the VIP services being put in place. Then we're stuck, as far as ourselves, because we're outside of the law, where no bureaucrat likes to be.

MR. GOSSE: Absolutely, I understand that. Again, I'll just say one more comment, that I do find in problems dealing with this that all Legions have a service officer. We were talking earlier about a veterans' ombudsman, but I find working closely with the Legion service officer to try to get to the root of what's happening, I find that a good avenue for myself. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Gosse. It sounds like you're getting tired of cutting your mother-in-law's grass. (Laughter)

I call upon Mr. Dunn.

MR. PATRICK DUNN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under the National Client Profile, you mentioned the First World War veterans, knowing of three who are approximately 105 years of age. Have you any idea where they are located?

MS. LOCKE: Yes, two are in Ontario and one lives in the United States, Washington. I had the honour of going to one of the veteran's 105^th birthday party so it was a wonderful event. It was good to see him.

MR. DUNN: Again, staying with the client profile - with all the stats that you have, with the number of veterans from various wars and so on, do you have any idea what percentage are from Atlantic Canada? You may not have that information with you.

MS. LOCKE: I don't have that information right now but I certainly can get it for you, if you call my office.

MR. DUNN: Okay, thank you.

MR. BROWN: I know the percentage in the current military - I think it is even higher now, the percentage of Atlantic Canadians, than were in the war.

MS. LOCKE: Twenty-two per cent.

MR. BROWN: Yes, 22 per cent, so we anticipate - of course when you look at demographic changes, when those people eventually discharge from the military, where are they going to end up residing? If they all reside and come back to Atlantic, or a good percentage of them, then I guess we, as a department, have to make sure we have our staff in place where our future clients are going to be residing.

MR. DUNN: Yes, that was a further question I had which you have answered. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dunn. Does anyone have any further questions?

Mr. Porter.

MR. PORTER: Given the reviews or the reports that you look at and do - this is sort of a two part question, both federally and provincially here in Nova Scotia - staffing. I know that generally answers come back out relatively quickly but do you feel that you're adequately staffed to do the job, the task at hand?

MS. LOCKE: With the new veterans charter, we hired a number of specialists - a mental health officer as well as a rehab officer. We increased our complement in our client services, we have an additional standards and evaluation training officer who helps training the staff. We are constantly reviewing our staffing complement and our interaction with DND and the expectations on Afghanistan rotations. As I said, we are closely monitoring it and we are flexible to increase our staffing complement, if we need to.

MR. PORTER: Just one quick last question, it is sort of a follow-up to Mr. Gosse's question, about long-term care. Somebody who goes in the Windsor Elms nursing home is a veteran and he has never needed the system for anything and maybe he is capable or not quite. Is there somebody associated with nursing homes specifically in this province who goes out and acts on their behalf and does that paperwork and represents these folks?

MR. BROWN: I'll try to answer your question although if I've misunderstood it, just get me back on track here. Any veteran could have an area counsellor as their representative within Veterans Affairs. We have our entire provinces separated geographically for our purposes, by postal code, so any veteran, once they call us, and that is where I guess if anyone calls us looking for service, we will, for a client, one of the first questions we'll have is we want to know their address, what's their postal code and we will route that person to a particular area counsellor, based on where they reside. So they have someone who is in charge of that file, if you will, that client.

As well, when it comes to facilities like nursing homes, we have a nursing group in our office that stays in touch with the nursing homes throughout the year because obviously we're having clients admitted there, so they are very much in touch and we attempt to get out and actually review the level of care, we do what we call a facility review and we will try to make sure that the level of care is what we are expecting for our veterans. So we do stay in touch on the care side - you know, what is the level of care.

MS. LOCKE: But I'm just wondering if the question was more if the veteran wasn't a client, if he was admitted to - if he went into a facility (Interruptions) Is there a strategy.

MR. PORTER: Yes, I'm kind of going back to discovering a young lady there that Mr. Gosse was talking about. Is there something there, she's now or he's now gone into the Elms or Taigh Na Mara or wherever that might be and never used the system, but you know there is a cost associated with going into one of these facilities. Where does Veterans Affairs now pick up versus maybe . . .

MS. LOCKE: I worked in Ontario the last two years and I know the Legion was very active in visiting the local nursing homes in their area and they would try to identify any potential clients of Veterans Affairs through a form or a system.

MS. HICKS: Often with nursing homes, usually if there are family, the families will usually get involved because there is quite a cost, especially in Atlantic Canada, with going into a facility so often that is a preoccupation, that is one mechanism that they may come in the door.

Often when they are admitted to a nursing home it is a small community, so veterans are asked, are you a veteran? Often the facilities will facilitate a contact with Veterans Affairs if, in fact, they haven't had it already. The province will ask, with the placement process, when they are looking at the lists, are you a veteran; sometimes they may facilitate. So there are a number of ways that they may come in the door, if they are not already a client, they may come to our attention.

Also, when an area counselllor, someone's going into that facility - oh, we've got another veteran here, okay well let's go and meet with them. Is there a potential that one could slip through the cracks? Absolutely. Do we try and avoid that? We try and do that.

MR. PORTER: Certainly, there is the potential there could be a representative in any hospital, nursing home, et cetera, the flag goes up, oh, maybe and says oh, maybe we should check with Veterans Affairs.

MS. LOCKE: I think it would be a good idea to look into that process, to ensure that no one falls through the gaps.

MR. PORTER: Thanks very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Porter. I just have a few questions.

Is there a list of the area counselors? Is it online, for all across the province?

MR. BROWN: It's not on line, no. We have a list.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you forward the complete list to the committee and we could distribute that? I think it is important, sometimes we get referrals from family members and actually the veteran doesn't live in our area but we can . . .

MR. BROWN: Right, we can do that, yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That would be great. Through your presentation on Page 5, in the Rehabilitation Statistics, you said 886 were favourable.

MS. LOCKE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: On the next Earnings Loss Statistics, is that the same 886? Or is it just by coincidence?

[10:00 a.m.]

MS. LOCKE: Yes, I believe it is. I will clarify that but in order to have an earnings loss, you have to be on a rehab - on one of the rehab programs, involved in our rehab program to apply for earnings loss.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your Rehabilitation Statistics say there are 886, so I assume they would be on a program for rehab.

MS. LOCKE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So when you move to 886 across to the other, it says 600 were approved clients. What happened to the other 286?

MS. LOCKE: As I mentioned, they may already be receiving earnings loss benefits through SISIP or through the DND, I believe. I am not the SISIP expert but I believe the first two years they would receive earnings loss through another provider.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thanks very much. The new charter, how does that affect the programs that are now being provided to World War II and Korean vets, or is it just dealing with the modern day vets?

MS. LOCKE: It is just dealing with the modern day veterans. We have all the services and benefits that were in place or are in place under the Pension Act for our traditional clients as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: One of the things that I think you have heard going around is some of what may be perceived as weaknesses in the programs being provided to our veterans of World War II or the Korean veterans. Have you guys sent any directive to the minister on ways to improve, for example, the VIP program?

MS. LOCKE: We're continually reviewing our programs and we're actually looking at a review of all our programs and services.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The VIP program is an income-based program?

MS. LOCKE: No.

MR. BROWN: Before I forget it - again I want to refer to, how do we get in touch with the VIP or stay in touch with possible improvements? Where we get that all the time is, like I mentioned at our Client Advisory Committee, where every month we bring in a cross section of clients, we sit around a place like this, without the microphones, and they tell us what's wrong with programs, so we hear that. Every district office, when they hear that, that filters up so the VIP program, along with other services, we are getting feedback at the local level.

MS. LOCKE: Okay, and I'd just say that the VIP program isn't truly income-based and Jane has more details to add.

MS. HICKS: Eligibility, as we all know, can be complex with Veterans Affairs Canada and there's different mechanisms to get VIP. If you are a disability pensioner and it is related to your pension condition, it doesn't matter what your income is. For others, if you are a Canada Service veteran or a World War II vet, it is income-based. So there

can be, but it's not - the VIP program is also based on need, so it depends on the circumstance.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And if your health deteriorates, which affects your income, you can then reapply.

MS. LOCKE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: One of the problems is, though, if your spouse is not a veteran and her health deteriorates or his health deteriorates to where it is a financial hardship on that family and, quite frankly, a financial impact on that veteran, they can't reapply. I've had a number of those in my constituency where the veteran's health has actually maintained a level of quality of health where his spouse, who is not a veteran, has not and it has put a financial hardship on the family. So I would encourage you to look at that. I think it goes back to, as has been mentioned by a number of people, the widows who seem to be left out of this program.

I don't know if anyone else on the committee has further questions.

I want to thank you for coming in today on behalf of not only the members of this committee but the Legislature and any way you can improve the lives of our veterans will be fully supported by all of us. So once again, thanks and I want to wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

MS. LOCKE: Thank you very much, Seasons Greetings to you as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: To the committee members, our next meeting will be on January 11^th. I don't know if anyone has any further businesses?

Then we stand adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 10:04 a.m.]