HANSARD

Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services

VETERANS AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

Mr. Michel Samson (Chairman)

Mr. William Langille

Mr. Cecil O'Donnell

Mr. John Chataway

Mr. Jerry Pye

Mr. Gordon Gosse

Mr. David Wilson (Sackville-Cobequid)

Mr. Harold Theriault

Mr. Stephen McNeil

Mrs. Darlene Henry

Legislative Committee Clerk

Observer:

Mr. Jack Hatcher, Treasurer

Royal Canadian Legion

Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command

WITNESSES

Canadian Youth Remembrance Society

Mr. Patrick Milner

Chairman

Mr. Joe Henschel

Board Member

HALIFAX, THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2004

STANDING COMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS

9:00 A.M.

CHAIRMAN

Mr. Michel Samson

MR. CHAIRMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Veterans Affairs Committee. My name is Michel Samson. I am the chairman and the MLA for Richmond. With us this morning we have two witnesses on behalf of the Canadian Youth Remembrance Society. As committee members will recall, we received a request for a presentation from this organization, which we accepted and were able to schedule for today. We also have some committee business that we'll deal with afterwards. What we'll do to start off is have committee members introduce themselves and their ridings, and then we'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves and give us their presentation, and then any questions that members might have afterwards, we can certainly deal with at that point. I certainly want to recognize Mr. Jack Hatcher, who is here with us on behalf of the Royal Canadian Legion and is observing here today. We have other guests with us today, and we certainly welcome them. Mr. McNeil, would you start with the introductions.

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: We might be having a few members join us a little later, that's entirely possible. I'm sure we'll get them introduced as soon as they get here. Next to me is Darlene Henry, who is the clerk of the committee, a hard-working and great representative, and who puts together our meetings and all the information provided to us. With that, Mr. Milner, the floor is yours.

MR. PATRICK MILNER: Mr. Chairman, first, I guess we'll introduce ourselves. My name is Patrick Milner. I'm originally from Amherst, Nova Scotia and am living in Halifax. I'm excited to present today.

MR. JOE HENSCHEL: As the Chairman of the Canadian Youth Remembrance Society, Patrick Milner said, we're here on behalf of the society. My name is Joe Henschel, originally from Edmonton, Alberta and now living in Halifax for a little more than a year. I'm on the board of the society and have been on the board for about a year.

MR. MILNER: Thank you very much to all the committee members for allowing us to speak. The purpose of us coming today is really to introduce ourselves and the concept of the Canadian Youth Remembrance Society - some of you may have heard about it by now; some of you may not have - and just to tell you a little bit about why it was started and what we've currently accomplished. The other thing is we're very interested in having the committee's assistance in helping us proceed and giving us some advice about how to make

this the most it can possibly be.

It started about two years ago. I had the opportunity for the last three and a half years to work at Pier 21 National Historic Site. I work in the museum. Before I worked there, I had, arguably, very little knowledge about our military history, and certainly immigration history, I had absolutely none. I didn't know very much about this at all. It was almost immediately that I started meeting people who had come through Pier 21, people who were in the Second World War and other wars, and it was one of the most overwhelming experiences I had ever had in my life.

Obviously, it was very emotional for the people who were coming through, and I think that what got my mind started was about five days after I had started working there, a veteran of the Second World War was on my tour and I was sort of a very ambitious person at the time and I thought I would jump right into the tours, even though I perhaps wasn't ready. This veteran was so quick to catch that I didn't know very much about the Second World War, about his sacrifice, and he was very upset about it. It was very alarming to him and to me as well. I was quite horrified that my worst fear of being caught not knowing something had come true. I was sure that that would be my last day working at Pier 21.

As it turned out, he was very emotional. We had to stop the tour for about 10 minutes. What he said about the state of Canada's youth is arguable to many people, but he basically said that young people do not care. Now in the last couple of years, I've softened that up quite a bit because I've had a chance to meet a lot of people. A lot is being done in Canada, and certainly in Nova Scotia, to appreciate veterans and to appreciate the sacrifices of all those who have come before.

However, we now say that we don't appreciate enough, and when I say we, probably the first people who I went out to talk to were young people. I thought, well, if I'm upset about this, maybe if I get a few other people together we can start to come up with something - we didn't know what would evolve - that could help change this sentiment. Certainly over the next three and a half years at Pier 21, it became crystal clear to me that no matter what

people said about how much has been happening, it's a minority. The majority of what we really need in this country is not taking place.

So young people basically responded by saying they didn't resent or challenge that assertion that they don't appreciate enough. In fact, it was quite the opposite, they basically said, well, they're right, veterans are right, we don't. We don't go to ceremonies enough, we don't actively get involved. There are many symptoms which all us, and probably you, have dealt with many years before I have, where we can see that different organizations and different ceremonies haven't been well attended, but it's started to change over the last few years, since I've been looking anyway.

However, getting back to the whole status of Canada's youth, I was 28 years old when I went into Pier 21 for the first time - I'm now 32 - and I knew very little. It became clear after talking with young people that what we really needed was a society that was driven by young Canadians, the leadership, the vision, all came from young people and that the organization was independent, that it had an ability to be autonomous, to seek out advice, to engage other young people in a cause to never forget.

So I and the board of directors incorporated the society on October 27, 2003, it's incorporated under the Societies Act and we just had our official launch on November 5, 2004. It was to commemorate the launch of Veterans Week, which we thought was appropriate. It was a Friday, it was a challenging day to get certain people out to it but it was very well attended. It was at Government House with the gracious support of Her Honour, Myra A. Freeman, Lieutenant Governor, and she was wonderful. Just as I continue to speak, I just want to hand around, for everyone to see, I will make copies of that one day once I feel comfortable taking it apart. It was very well received. While we were there Her Honour officially launched the society for us so we are now symbolically launched and we were presented, for the first time, from the Royal Canadian Legion, which we are very thankful for, our official wreath, the Canadian Youth Remembrance Society wreath. I and Ashley Hannon, who is the President of the Student Council at Queen Elizabeth High School, laid that wreath for the first time. We were 12^th in the order of things, which we thought was pretty important. It followed the Youth of Canada which we had been asked to lay on behalf of the Legion the year before. So we are making progress.

We were established under the premise to engage and educate all young Canadians about the contribution and sacrifices of our veterans and all those who have come before. Our current mission is to create a national culture of remembrance where youth educate youth about these contributions. We believe that here in Nova Scotia there are many examples of why this is a great province to start this modern-day Canadian dream, it's been termed. Imagine a culture such as Canada being an example for the rest of the world. We hear this quite a bit.

I truly believe, and the board believes that to truly evaluate or understand a nation or a province, community, an organization or even a family, one need first look to its youth and this is the premise which we feel has the greatest potential. Canada's youth have an incredible opportunity to set an example for the rest of the world. After hearing the atrocious stories that have come out of Europe during the Second World War and the incredible sacrifices, it can be very uncomfortable and it can be very difficult for young people to admit their weaknesses and certainly for me to say that I was 28 years old, I immediately thought that there must be some reason why I didn't know this stuff. Why was it that it wasn't important to me because I was in cadets and Joe was actually in cadets as well . . .

MR. HENSCHEL: In Alberta I was in cadets.

MR. MILNER: I was 13 years old, turned 14. I was there long enough to get my little propeller, which was my LAC and then I quit. I remember it was to put more attention to my school at the time. From that point on, until I was 28 years old, I never went to a remembrance ceremony and my grandfather was a Second World War veteran and he passed away when I was 14. From there, I don't know why, and this is common with many people of my age and less and even older, where once a year we see poppies and we see that veterans are doing their usual thing and it's very important to continue this but for some reason, it was a day off, there wasn't much on TV, everything was closed and it was sort of one of those things that went by year after year.

It wasn't until I was put on the spot and where it got through the armour that I really believe that I had been missing something. That experience is what motivates me every day when I get up and I go to these events. It can be very nerve-wracking to talk about something that I am really, and the board is really, struggling to - Joe is one of the experts actually, so to speak, compared to me. It's really difficult to speak before people and struggle to really be able to keep up.

[9:15 a.m.]

As I joked, there has been so much response to this, so much hope, almost like a desperate hope from veterans that what we are saying sounds really good but will actually deliver. It will actually create something that will sustain itself over the long haul, that we will be able to implement educational opportunities in schools, educate young people outside of schools in the community to make it the thing to do, not just because it's the thing to do but because it means something.

It's very difficult to hear that the youth in other nations celebrate our Canadian veterans more than we do and yet it has been on the news lately. Their graves over there are so much better kept than ours. They have flower beds in front of them, there are little kids who are responsible for an entire year to commemorate that grave. Of course, they have an appreciation of war which we don't have, thankfully, over here. But it could have made it

over here, I've learned. We need to set an example, as a modest nation, to go forward and celebrate these successes.

That's a lot to come out all at once. It's sort of everything that I wanted to say but we have had some issues in continuing to develop this. Money is always an issue but it is not the most important issue. It is actually four or five down the list. One of the most tragic things, which is somewhat confusing, it's contradictory, and I'm not speaking to anybody here or to anybody particularly, but for me, I have tried to fill the role of spearhead, have tried to be a driving force but it is very difficult to get young people involved. It's not as easy as I thought it would be. Telling these stories doesn't seem to bridge the gap, for some reason. It doesn't seem to make it an overwhelming urge. There is no relationship with who we are as a country and our role in the world that seems to motivate young people to come out in great overwhelming waves.

It has also been difficult to convince our leaders. Many of our leaders have not been able to have the time. Of course, today I can think of one MLA who is from this province - and I have treated all of them very equally - who I haven't been able to meet with for over two years. For some reason, it just doesn't happen. This can be very confusing to me because it is always very popular around November for everybody to celebrate, to go home and say wonderful words but when it actually comes to doing things, our province and our country, as a whole, on a larger scale - and I'm willing to be challenged on that, of course - I really think that we are falling short. Many people don't want to admit that. They don't want to. It's not a positive thing, it's not Canadian to admit our faults. We are a proud nation and we have extremely high ideals and we, I think, are struggling for this greater vision of our country, what will we do in the world? I think our youth had a responsibility to engage.

So coming here today, we wanted to get a few things from you. One was we just wanted to get on the record that we exist. We are in our infancy so there is much more preparation that has to be done. We have been discussing with Veterans Affairs Canada, I'm actually taking part in a meeting tomorrow to discuss some of the planning for the May Italian Campaign commemorations. We are starting to get young people. Currently it is just myself and one of the other members who will be attending but to give some recognition to youth and to really start to put them in a position to take over and, as the Legion says, pick up that torch and carry it forward. We don't want to pick it up all at once, it's too heavy, but we would like to share the burden and maybe 10 years from now we can create a national movement that will be the envy of the world. So that is one issue.

The second one is we would very much like to include the province in our whole package. It is theoretically a federal responsibility and so Veterans Affairs is a department that can carry us a lot of the way, but we would like to say that here in Nova Scotia our ship is in order. We look after our youth and we do our part, as part of this nation, to make sure that we set an example for other provinces. Now Joe is from Alberta, I'm from Nova Scotia. I'm a very proud Nova Scotian and I expect a tremendous amount. I feel that we need to truly

set an example for the rest of the nation. Why not? We were one of the gateways to Canada; approximately 494,000 young men - mostly young men, some women and children - left from Pier 21. I learned about that. They walked around out in the area. They had their last cigarettes, last cup of coffee before getting on a ship, 10 per cent of them did not return, about 50,000.

This is a big deal for me, going to work every day and there is no doubt, I have an incredible sense of calm right now, all the nervousness has left. Those people have asked for me, particularly, and all of the board members to not give up, to make sure that we follow through with what we're saying, and the message is burnt into my soul.

So I think that is the second one, to just get some information on how we can fit this project into a provincial department. We will have to present a package, a proposal to somebody eventually and we would like you to help us find that home, find a few champions of that cause, maybe even all of you can be a champion of that cause. There are young people in your ridings and it is a grassroots concept. We do want to get into communities and we do want to see young people echoing all of the provincial and national initiatives, as well as opening chapters of the Canadian Youth Remembrance Society, working with the Royal Canadian Legion and other veteran associations. It's a massive project for people who have, arguably, a limited knowledge to put together. So we are struggling and we haven't given up. There is so much interest, as I joked before, it's hard to keep the wheels on the wagon. It's an incredible responsibility. So I think that's the second one. Any of you who would like to be advisers, we would like to include you in that as well.

I think at that point perhaps I could just, while you're looking, pass around these two letters. I'll make a copy for you eventually, when we hand in our proposal, but this will just give you some of the support that we've received, show some of the passion that those people have for what they're doing. If you have any questions, we would love to answer them. We don't have all the answers but, as I say on my tour, if I don't know the answers I'll just make it up. I'm joking.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Milner. Mr. Langille.

MR. WILLIAM LANGILLE: I thank you for coming in today and shedding some light on your initiatives and I commend you both for taking the stand you do in promoting our veterans and Remembrance Day.

I think you touched on a very important point. But first I want to say that as a body here of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, we're the only legislative committee in Canada, provincially. Although I think all provinces should have the same legislation, because yours is a very important committee. This committee has done great things over the past while. When you said, although graduating from high school and so on, 28 years of age and not knowing the history of our past, you touched on a very important issue.

One of those issues that came to light, oh, five years ago or so and something that was implemented through the initiatives partly of this committee was that in Nova Scotia now Canadian history is mandatory in high school. So what that means is that the students of today are learning about our past and the sacrifices, especially that our veterans have made. Other things that this committee has done on a provincial level - although we're not federal and we're limited to what we can do - we brought in the Veterans Memorial Highway. This is all advertising, this is advertising for our vets, so people every time they drive Highway No. 102 they see that sign, which is very important. Also, the first in Canada, through this committee, we brought in the veterans licence plates, now other provinces are following through on this. I think Nova Scotia is one of the leaders. There are other things too, like contributing, we had a request to contribute $25,000 for bricks at the Juno Pavilion in Normandy. We also through this committee and the government lobbied them and they bought Nova Scotia brick. The other thing is money for the Walter Callow bus for veterans at Camp Hill so they can travel throughout Nova Scotia.

One of the things that we did that falls a bit short, in my estimation, was that two years ago, we proclaimed August 9^th as Peacekeeping Day in Nova Scotia. Since then, although we are a country of peacekeepers and we're recognized as a country of peacekeepers who do an excellent job throughout the world, world recognized, August 9^th has not caught on as it should. By that I mean we are not celebrating Peacekeeping Day, it's here but nobody has taken the ball and run with it. I think that's a bit of a tragedy that we have not. I look at our Armed Forces, I look at the Eastern Command of the Navy and sometimes I wonder if they actually even know that we did proclaim August 9^th because there has been very little publicity.

One of the big points that you made today is about not knowing about our history. Now this is mandatory in Nova Scotia. Does anybody know if it's mandatory in any other province? I'm not sure. There are different Acts throughout the country, in the 10 provinces, on Remembrance Day, some celebrate it as a time of remembrance more than others and there is nothing national about it. Every province has its own Act or some don't but in Nova Scotia our Remembrance Day Act is one of if not the best in Canada, I feel. So I think Nova Scotia has been a leader and the Provincial Command of the Legion. When they go across Canada on their Dominion Command seminars and annual meetings, Nova Scotia is the envy of the rest of Canada when it comes to their Legions and their initiatives.

Again, I thank you for coming in. I know that you have a hard road ahead of you because I know that Remembrance Day falls once a year and to keep the spirit going all year round is a tough sell. But through our advertising with our licence plates and the Veterans Memorial Highway and with the press and the media, who give us great coverage at Remembrance time, I see a resurgence at the cenotaphs and I notice that there are school kids who march, have their little Canadian flags and the school teachers take them out and they march. I attended two one Sunday before at a cenotaph and in Debert I laid the wreath on Remembrance Day and I couldn't believe the turnout in Debert. I understand in Truro and

all across Nova Scotia there were huge turnouts, as well as Canada. There seems to be a resurgence. I can remember years ago when Remembrance Day services, there were very few people who turned out. But there is a resurgence now and I think a lot of it has to do with the times we're in right now and the state of the world. But I think there is a resurgence in the remembrance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Milner, did you want to comment on that?

MR. MILNER: Yes, I think that Nova Scotia is a leader, that has never been in doubt. I won't respond too long but I think that one of the issues that we have noticed is that there is a distinct difference between telling a young person to do something and a young person getting up on their own right and doing it by themselves, educating youth. I think the only difference is it's more of a lecture than it is a culture of remembrance, it's more of, this is good for you, get out there and do that. But you're right, there is a resurgence, due to world affairs. I think veterans are talking more in their communities. I think they feel a need to let some of this stuff out.

[9:30 a.m.]

I'm proud to say it's in the thousands now, people I've talked to, not just veterans but people who were chased out of their countries. They didn't want to talk about this for so long, but they really feel that they have to do something before they go. They want to be remembered. They want to move on. You're right. Again, when I was at the ceremony, I was actually looking this time, I really wanted to prove for myself whether or not there were young people there, and there were a lot of young people there.

What we have to do now is find out what young people are saying. Some of these people in high school - I did want to comment. I had a meeting with some of the student leadership at Queen Elizabeth High School. I was talking about the significance of November 5^th, the launch of Veterans Week nationally, and Remembrance Day, and we were going to lay a wreath and that sort of thing. Two of the girls who were in Grade 12, who would have had the mandatory education, did not know what a veteran was, didn't know. They had to stop and ask, well, what do you mean by veteran? The second one was, what day is Remembrance Day? They're getting a unit, I think that's what one of the girls said, a mandatory unit in high school. It's a start.

MR. HENSCHEL: If I could just add to that, Patrick, I've experienced Remembrance Day ceremonies in three different provinces now. It's a general interest of mine and has been for many years. There are definite inequalities from province to province, from region to region. Edmonton is the Western Command for the Armed Forces of Canada, and moving to Halifax, it's a fantastic military town, amazing tradition with the Navy here. What I do see is the youth who are active and do attend, by and large they're engaged in some other

membership. They don't go on their own, they're in the Cub Scouts or they're in something else.

This Remembrance Day I was in a small rural town in Alberta, like anywhere in Canada, there were tears shed by the veterans, there was a ceremony. This society has potential to grow from coast to coast and affect every town. To have it start in Nova Scotia, I see it as so fitting, and the fact that there's a Veterans Affairs portfolio here in the Government of Nova Scotia, the only one in the country. There's just a cultural history, almost like nowhere else in this great country of ours. Working together with the Veterans Affairs and working together with the different organizations, school boards, all the other organizations, I guess what we really want to do is work on student leaders and engage the student leaders so that they themselves can engage their peers, so that it's not someone telling them to do something, it's not someone feeding them information, it's something that the student leaders will then have the knowledge to just build upon the masses of their equals. Coming from people, adults, the message is somehow not being properly decoded as it goes along the generations. So we really feel that this society, if it is to succeed, it has to involve the youth of this country educating the youth.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chataway.

MR. JOHN CHATAWAY: I would just like to say for the record, to Mr. Milner, Mr. Henschel, congratulations for doing your good work. I'm sure everybody very much appreciates you coming out to do this and inform us of your mission statement, it's a very good point, the proverbial mission statement, to emphasize the veterans who have suffered in Canada's past. It's very important. Of course in Nova Scotia - I've been told and nobody's denied it - 20 per cent of Canadian Armed Forces come from Nova Scotia. Some may not be in the Forces, but inevitably they have relatives who are. They're all very much involved, and they're a very dedicated Forces. Certainly with the peacekeeping requests, I guess we're doing a good job, at least the world figures we do a very credible job. Certainly, that's very important.

I just wondered, specifically, if you could give any details - we know the mission statement, but have you ever sat down and said, okay, here's our ultimate goal, in this year we're going to concentrate on this, this and this? What's next, that you are going to do?

MR. MILNER: Thank you very much for your compliment. It's a lot of work to move forward, it's not the most common thing to do. It's coming, it's coming along. To answer your question, what we've determined is that we get into discussions about emotion, and there's nothing quantitative to back up those statements, in terms of young people and what they think and that sort of thing. So, one of the issues that we're starting to work with Veterans Affairs Canada about, and we'd like the province to be involved with this, we're thinking of trying to bring together representatives from across Nova Scotia and eventually the Atlantic Region and nationally, I suppose, to have somewhat of a conference or a forum,

a Youth Remembrance Conference, to pose these questions and to get some sort of information back from young people about perhaps why it is that it's not as important to them as it should be.

You'll never hear a Canadian say no, I don't appreciate veterans. You won't hear that. You'll only hear yes, I appreciate veterans. But why is it that the saying, going to the doing and the building of the culture isn't taking place, then what is it that they want to do? What do they want to do in their communities? Do they want to work with the Legion? Do they want to be responsible for organizing the ceremonies with the guidance of the Legion? Do they want to be assisting with the Poppy Campaign? Do they want to be demanding from their teachers that in the unit they be allowed to give presentations to their peers?

Whatever it is, we need to find out what it is, cumulatively or average it out, what direction we should be taking. It's sort of a bold thing, I think and the board agrees, to just simply state what young people want. I don't think we represent young Canadians yet. So that's the first thing we want to do, and it's been argued that we should try to organize something, whether it's a full conference or whether it's just a little focus group of some kind for this May, around the commemoration of the Italian Campaign. They thought that would be a good time to do that. I have, in the last couple of years, touched base with people like the Youth Secretariat. They were very supportive of it. Like everybody, we need to put something together and ask for something.

So I would say three things. One, we want to develop the board, we want to continue to educate the board, and help strengthen that leadership and that governance, because that's the core of it, the strength of it. Second, we need to engage young people and find out what they're saying, what are they saying, what are the issues. Third, we feel that we need a person, because we are in this for the long haul, to become somewhat of an executive director or a coordinator to harness the vision of the board and Nova Scotia youth and then eventually Canada's youth. These are some of the things that we're talking about.

Particularly, we want to commemorate grave sites, we want to partner young people with veterans, giving out poppies, or start to make a move to assist the Legion with their Poppy Campaigns, I think that's important. We would like to do our own fundraising, we don't know how to do it, but we go around in circles from people giving us money to having to come up with contributions on our own. We're stuck in that sort of thing - that will come out of a conference, perhaps.

There is a move to get away from sending people to Europe. We've discovered they're starting to think of trying to bring it back home, Veterans Affairs, in their initiatives. I can tell you right now, I have to get over there, I have to go over and see what these people are talking about and then come back and promote that. We're trying to build the organization that we all want to see, a good quality organization.

I think the board of directors need to continue to educate themselves and that's one thing. I know of one guy, Peter Stoffer, that I ran into and he said, what's the sense of me going over there every year or every couple of years, I have been over there. He said we should be spending our money sending young people over there, people like yourself, and I'm sure it's a great trip, it would be an awesome time, but it would be a learning opportunity. It's very frustrating to really - I'm not sure if that answers your question. There is a whole list of them but again, we're just getting started.

MR. CHATAWAY: A further comment, and I certainly appreciate your answer. I think anybody, even a person as dumb as the member for Chester-St. Margaret's knows that you have a great respect and want to work as well as you can with the Legions. I'm sure all members of the Legion appreciate your enthusiasm because, basically, you are people working for the same goal and going in the right direction.

I know in my riding there are six sites, five Legions, and inevitably, you see veterans going to schools more and more often before Remembrance Day, it's very important. Many more classes are doing Remembrance Day exercises, et cetera. In that regard, if you have a meeting, I would possibly suggest the name of Terry Copp, a professor at Waterloo Lutheran University. He is a major historian for Legion Magazine and I get the publication. First, he is very good and in fact, I have a brother who went over on one of these tours of Europe for about a week - it's not cheap either. He is very well informed and obviously, Legion Magazine would not have him as a historian if he was not good. You should have him at your meeting or have a conversation with him because I think he would have some very good ideas. But anyway, keep up the good work.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McNeil.

MR. STEPHEN MCNEIL: Thank you, Joe and Patrick, for coming in. It is pretty obvious, when we listen to you, Patrick, you obviously have a passion. You suffered the fear that most of us do that when we start talking, people realize we don't know what we're talking about, it's a challenge. Your society, is your membership across the province or is it more an urban membership?

MR. MILNER: We are just getting started. We have 11 board members and that is it. Starting April 1^st, which is our new fiscal year, we are now going to be putting a priority on getting members and start to have good discussions with those members. We have no membership, as such, at the moment.

MR. MCNEIL: I represent a rural riding. Is your hope or one of the goals that you may do is use the Legion to help engage the youth in the communities they are in to promote your message?

MR. MILNER: Yes, absolutely. The Legion is obviously the largest and arguably the most able to get the message out. There are other veterans' associations, as you know, and we want to build a relationship with all veterans' associations, ultimately. Nova Scotia/Nunavut Provincial Command has been tremendous. Tom Waters, who I should say for the record, is just a great guy, a great liaison, his heart is in the right place, he has no ulterior motives, he's a great adviser.

MR. MCNEIL: Realizing that your organization is in its infancy, has there been any move or any discussion about maybe visiting high schools around the province and promoting to individual high schools, as opposed to calling student leaders from various areas, but going directly to the high schools?

[9:45 a.m.]

MR. MILNER: Yes, it has been debated. I don't know if we've resolved that debate but we debated whether organizational people should be going out and giving seminars and that kind of thing, or whether we should try to invite people together, like for the annual conference, where they are trained. Veterans Affairs has an ambassador program which they - I believe I'm correct in saying - weren't happy with how it turned out, whether it was picked up or not, young people doing a lot of what we're talking about doing, that we may be able to play that role one day, to go out and say, I'm a member now, and I take it to my school and do this particular thing. Again, this is in concert with the traditions we already have, we don't want to replace the traditions or anything like that.

MR. MCNEIL: The reason I asked is, I'm sure as you go across the province there are a lot of great ideas and great things happening inside the schools. In one of the schools in my community, Bridgetown Regional High School, they do a Remembrance Day play, the drama club puts it on. They start preparing for that when school goes in so, of course, Remembrance Day is alive in that school, especially for the students involved in the drama, really from the beginning of the school year until Remembrance Day. It turns into a special event because, of course, the veterans are invited, they are marched in and marched out, and it's actually a very moving tribute.

You can see more emotion at that play than you do, really, at the Remembrance Day ceremony. It's driven by the kids and I know, my two children are both in that high school, and it is an exceptionally good way to keep it alive and keep them thinking about it more than just coming up to November 11^th . The plays have really been around the human side of the war and some of it has been on the impact it has had on individual lives.

It sounds kind of silly, when you think about it, there are so many things we talk about with war, killing and all those other things that happen, but just think for a minute of plucking your parent out of your life for five years, leaving a son or daughter at age 13 and arriving back when they're 18, or leaving and coming back to a child that wasn't born when

you left and is now four or five years old. Those kinds of things are happening, not to mention the horrors they bring back inside their own minds. It has actually been a great way, not only for my children but the kids around that community, to really begin to think about the horrors of war and the consequences of it.

Just one other question and it is somewhat around the Legions. One of the things, as you go to the ceremonies on Remembrance Day, you notice the age of the veterans and the fact that there are fewer and fewer of them. Do you envision your society filling that role, coming in and making sure that Remembrance Day continues to grow and becomes the focal point of many of the communities?

MR. MILNER: Yes, absolutely. I think it's important for the Legions to find a way to - I'm sure they have organizing committees that they strike far enough ahead to start to organize the annual Remembrance Day ceremony - talk to the principals of schools in the local communities and that kind of thing, to get young people on the committee, to start talking. Maybe they could start off by doing crowd control or something simple like set up or things like that, but eventually, maybe even having a co-emcee or things like that that are just very simple. This is just to start to get young people involved in the civic celebration. It is a very precious time and I know it is a very important thing for the Legions, but I think it is important to start to build that depth.

MR. MCNEIL: Thanks very much, keep up the drive.

MR. MILNER: Definitely, we'll keep in touch with everyone.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Again, thank you for your presentation. It is great to see younger residents of our province starting to get involved in this and I think it is an important message that you're trying to get out.

It is important during the preparations for Remembrance Day ceremonies that our youth hear from our veterans. Hopefully, if your society grows - and I'm sure it will - that many of your projects will include maybe pairing up and going into the schools. I think it's

important to hear from younger Canadians who may have spoken to a veteran, like yourself. I think it's very moving when you hear what your experience was, and I think it will be good to have your view and your experience expressed in the classroom, especially, as Stephen said, there are fewer and fewer veterans. It's important to hear people like yourself who have had the experience, to hear some of the stories and what veterans have gone through, and to hear it from a younger person rather than veterans, I encourage you to continue that.

I won't ask a lot of the questions that were asked, about memberships and that. Have you looked at maybe going after any funding through Veterans Affairs or provincially or municipally? Is that something you guys are working on down the road, to see if you can get even a little bit of a grant from somewhere to, hopefully, promote your society? I think that's one of the important things, to get your message out and get the residents of the province knowing that this society is there. Definitely, as a group here, I don't think we knew a lot about you. It's great that you're here and it's working. You've just opened our eyes. Are you looking at trying to get some grants or funding in the future to try to promote yourself?

MR. MILNER: Yes. I think one of the obvious starting points is Veterans Affairs Canada. They're very supportive, they're very nice people over there. They want us to succeed. It's hard to contain it when you're an administrator, you have to be careful, but I think they're very excited that this exists. They helped us organize a meeting at Camp Hill with the board and several of the people over there. They are waiting for us to give them something. Right at the moment, it's the classic scenario, we're a voluntary board of directors and we're very busy people. If there was one compliment I wouldn't mind taking, it's that I helped get a really great board of directors, and hopefully you'll all get a chance to meet all of them. The curse is that good people are very busy people, and it's very difficult - I'm certainly not a number cruncher, that kind of a person.

So it's hard to put together a package. The board development, we're interested in having some help in trying to put together - everybody says they don't have to be complicated, yet every time you show somebody a proposal, it's like, well, this is great, once you get it packaged and once you get it this, and I thought I just did that. It's sort of a spin cycle. Plus, we get criticized for the idea of trying to create some of our own fundraising initiatives, because I think that there's a lot of resistance to young people going out and fundraising. They think that's a waste of their time and their resources, they should be focusing on meeting veterans and learning and that sort of thing.

But, as I said, Veterans Affairs Canada, they're very open-minded, and they're willing to look at everything, whether they accept what we give them - they're very interested in the conference concept, the idea. That way everybody can share that information that's received, it can go into everybody's programming. Getting some statistics to back up these statements.

I do want to say that there is a tremendous amount happening. When I first came out of the gates, it was sort of like young people don't do enough, young people don't do enough, and you run into all of these different organizations that many people, for all of their lives, have been promoting. It can be offending, and you have to be very careful. I guess I was just kind of shocked at some of the things.

We have approached several people. Provincially, there isn't a real fit in terms of some department, and that's been a struggle, I think, figuring out who to approach and how to access any potential funding. Money is the big kicker, it always is.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Definitely, and maybe our committee can assist you down the road, when you do have a package or whatever you're working on. Hopefully that's part of what our committee does, try to guide not only the Legions, but definitely a group like yourselves to try to get the message out. Are you trying to find out from different groups in the province, because there are many groups out there that are really promoting remembrance and keeping that memory alive. Are you aware of many groups yet, or is that something you're working on now?

MR. MILNER: We've been told of several groups. There's a junior high school and high school in Yarmouth.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): Yes, I was just going to mention that.

MR. MILNER: There was one guy who approached us about doing a play, and he was from, I think, around where you're from. Did they go overseas by any chance?

MR. MCNEIL: No. If they did they didn't take their MLA with them. (Laughter)

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I think that's important, because I think you can learn - especially the group from Yarmouth, their middle and high school actually come up to Halifax, to Camp Hill, and have a great ceremony. They have a ceremony here in Parade Square. It's amazing to see the youth there. I think you could probably, hopefully, get some information, some guidance from them. I'm sure that if you give them a call, or their local MLA would definitely - I don't know the name of the gentleman who's in charge of it, but I'm sure he would definitely guide you.

MR. MILNER: Mr. Bishara.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I truly believe that it's time that the youth - I've seen it in my own community in Sackville. It's amazing to see the people who are out for Remembrance Day. There has been a shift, I think, over the last several years. I think your timing is good. I know it's a lot of hard work right now, but I just encourage you to continue. Maybe a suggestion, if you're coming to a conference or that's something you're looking at, definitely send a letter to all the MLAs in Nova Scotia for some funding maybe or even a donation. I think, hopefully, many of the MLAs, if not all, would definitely want to help out with that. That's a little guidance to you, but it's also a challenge to our MLAs to help support you.

MR. MILNER: Thank you. I know we would like to do something different, creative with all our representatives to one day, maybe a couple of years from now, make some provincial statement that we're on board, so to speak. We don't want to ask for this now, but we have this idea of doing this in each province, going across and sort of bringing together

all of our representatives at all levels to say, well, at least in this province we've made a decision on this date to do this or to move forward.

We don't know what that would be, but one day that would be very exciting, I think, to be able to match this certificate in some way, that kind of thing, just hang it on a wall saying, we've been to Nova Scotia and now we're continuing in Nova Scotia and we're in another province now, to try to meet that same commitment from them. It doesn't have to be money, it's a lot of celebration stuff.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I encourage you to continue on.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gosse.

MR. GORDON GOSSE: I also thank Patrick and Joe for coming here today. It's very inspiring to see young people wanting to get involved with the Legions and our veterans. I read your package before I came here, your vision and your mission and what your goals are. I really like the vision part of a national culture of remembrance which all young Canadians understand. I think that's very important in society today. The mission statement was fine. I think it's a huge undertaking for young people, and I applaud you for doing this.

As you may not be aware, Cape Breton provided the most volunteers per capita of any part of the whole British Commonwealth for the war effort. Sydney Steel also provided one-third of the metal for the war effort. In my area, as a young fellow growing up, I pretty well got hooked on the history of remembrance. I'm a member of the Legion, and I grew up across the street from the Whitney Pier Legion, Branch 128. So I'm a member with lots of veterans, and I've never missed a Remembrance Day ceremony myself, in all the years I've been here, and I never would.

MR. MILNER: I won't miss another one.

MR. GOSSE: We actually have schools - Whitney Pier Memorial Junior High School and Memorial High School - and the lands were donated by the Legions to build those schools. The Legion has been very involved. We always had a Legion picnic growing up, where the buses would take all the kids out to Mira for a Legion picnic in the community. So the Legion was always involved in our community with so many veterans, but like you were stating, the average age of veterans being well over 80, and some of the Legions are struggling. Some of the Legions are struggling financially to keep going with the passing on of their members, it's a big challenge for you to take on and I applaud your efforts.

[10:00 a.m.]

You said there are 11 board members. Maybe you can answer this, are those board members all in the HRM or are any of the board members from across the province? Are there any from Cape Breton, Yarmouth, or the eastern or northern end of the province?

MR. MILNER: Currently there are 10 from here and one moved to Moncton, so it's generally in the . . .

MR. GOSSE: It's primarily in HRM.

MR. MILNER: As we sort of get our organization strengthened, there are a lot of modern technologies that will enable us to get people together.

MR. HENSCHEL: I guess you have to start somewhere and the geographic place right now just happens to be Halifax. Definitely, the whole Province of Nova Scotia is our focus and every time we have a board meeting and debate different issues, we've never specifically talked about Halifax and the HRM. Our focus has always been on outlying areas.

As Pat mentioned when he first introduced himself, he's from Amherst and his family is in Amherst and his roots are not in Halifax. Rural Canada and rural Nova Scotia is definitely within our vision.

MR. GOSSE: You say he's from Amherst, I wonder if he has ever visited the Armories in Amherst of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders? That's their home base, that's where their history is of the North Novies.

MR. MILNER: I've been there. My grandfather was Dean Sanford and was a CO of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders and I've been there. I meant to go in when I was 19 and I didn't get in there until I was 27. I didn't have the courage to go in there, it was just a scary, strange place, the Sergeant's mess. I didn't think I belonged in there.

MR. GOSSE: I had an uncle who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the North Novies so I'm pretty well familiar with all that. Again, you say the 60^th Anniversary coming up of the Italian Campaign in May - which is another unit the Cape Breton Highlanders were very involved in the liberation of Italy, starting in Sicily from one end to the other. That should be an avenue for maybe some young people in your organization to come to Cape Breton possibly.

Have you ever thought about going through the Boys and Girls Clubs and all those different service organizations that are already out there and asking for a member from each organization to come on-board and do it that way? Then you would have members from the organizations that are already there, the non-profit organizations, with young people from

youth centres, youth clubs and Boys and Girls Clubs and schools, and ask each one for a certain member from each region. I applaud the conference, I think that would be absolutely beautiful, if you could get that together.

As you gave your presentation today, I wanted to ask you what this committee could do to help your organization with your goal of getting a provincial declaration of support. What can we do as a committee to help you guys with that?

MR. MILNER: I guess I struggle with the mechanisms of our government, what mechanisms can be created. Several people have said a resolution should be done by one of the MLAs in the House to officially recognize - I don't know exactly what would be said. I asked that question in Amherst, I went to see Mr. Fage in his constituency office and I asked him about that. I'm from Amherst so I went in there first. They basically said, when you figure out what you want to say or who you are and what you stand for then maybe somebody could do that, it's a good idea. That might be one way to get it on the record.

We would like to consult with young people to find out what they need. I don't really know what else.

MR. HENSCHEL: One thing, Mr. Gosse and Mr. McNeil, you both said that the veterans are aging and the average age of veterans is over 80, but we have so many veterans who are serving right now, and it's not just the soldiers who were in World War II and Korea that we should be honouring. There are veterans in their 20s, their 30s, their 40s and their 50s and of course, our veterans who were in World War II - and their numbers are definitely dwindling. I think we need to work with all veterans and start to engage all of them and their families. I believe this committee could help us with getting the critical mass of the veterans to recognize us and to help us bring the youth to engage themselves.

MR. MILNER: I did a campaign when I was at Pier 21, a letter of support writing committee. About 25 per cent of the people we wrote letters to wrote us back and they were really great letters. Some were very passionate representatives, others were very passionate secretaries and executive assistants. I had envisioned that there would be some real thoughts like, I am a representative and what does this country mean to me, and I sit in this honourable position. That was very exciting for me when I received each of those replies, talking about their experiences and what their vision of a youth united would look like.

I thought if there was a way to get a letter of support of that kind from this committee, or to maybe bring it up in some forum where somebody representing all Nova Scotians could write a letter of some kind or a plaque, that we could maybe put beside that to make it official. We could take those to schools and to our meetings and it gives us a lot of credibility. That's an idea that I thought was something, even something that looks like a university degree or something like, on this day of our Lord, et cetera, but we had talked about that a little bit before that just a letter of support would be good.

MR. GOSSE: I don't see that being a problem from this committee, a letter of support for your organization. I guess I would have to make a motion with the members here on the committee that we would do that today. Also, when do you plan on launching your Canadian Youth Remembrance Society? Are you registered under the Societies Act in the Province of Nova Scotia?

MR. MILNER: Yes.

MR. GOSSE: You have charitable organization status and a business number, so maybe within your committee you could look at a funding and marketing committee within your board, itself, to actually get a plan started and look at doing that.

MR. HENSCHEL: That's exactly right, that's one thing we really want to try to have for this November. We had, symbolically, our official launch at Government House on November 5^th, but we didn't have a press release and we didn't have the regular marketing launch where the media and everybody is made aware of us. That was limited to 75 people who attended but that's exactly right, it does have to be done through proper communication and marketing procedures.

The problem is - and it goes back to what Patrick was saying - our board is made up of volunteers. To go through outsourcing is very expensive. Even to create an identity and create a logo, that's something we have been working on throughout the Summer. Our board met throughout the Summer - which is rare for a board - in June, July and August because this is something we really wanted to do. We wanted to have an official marketing launch. Just for logistics reasons, people are so busy, this is so time-consuming. Either do it right or don't do it at all. That has been the focus of our board. We really want to have it done right and successfully and that, we thought, should be deferred until our resources are there, that we do it correctly.

MR. GOSSE: Thank you. Again, I would like to thank you for coming today and for bringing these matters to our attention. Maybe the committee can do something to support your efforts and I applaud young people getting involved with such an important issue.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to thank both Patrick and Joe for your presentation today. Mr. Gosse, you did indicate an interest in making a motion. Did you want to do that now?

MR. GOSSE: Yes, I would like to make a motion that the Veterans Affairs Committee for the Province of Nova Scotia support the efforts of the Canadian Youth Remembrance Society and write a letter and a certificate, supporting their organization and their efforts.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder?

MR. MCNEIL: I second that motion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't see that being a problem. I think Darlene can draft up a letter for us. As for a certificate, I'm not sure we do that as a committee but we can certainly look at that also. (Interruption) We will ask Darlene to do both of those so you can use that as part of your marketing.

Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.

The motion is carried.

We'll certainly undertake to do that as soon as possible and get something out. Do I take it the committee members trust both the chairman and Darlene to put something together or did you want to all see it beforehand? You have faith in us? Very good. Good to see. Minority government is working well. (Laughter)

Mr. Chataway.

MR. CHATAWAY: Maybe the chairman should make a resolution for the House for the next time the House sits, whereas, whereas - I think all Parties will support it, at least the people sitting around this table, I'm sure, will.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'd certainly be more than happy to do that. I imagine the House will be sitting again sometime mid-Spring, and we'd be more than happy - myself, on behalf of the committee - to do the resolution. We'll send you a copy right away. I certainly do anticipate, also, that it will probably have the full support of the House.

Other than that, again, I thank today's presenters for coming in. Certainly, any time you feel the committee can be of assistance to your efforts, we're just a phone call away. As Mr. Langille has pointed out, we are the only provincial Veterans Affairs Committee. Certainly we've been able to address a number of various issues facing veterans and Legions in this province. We certainly look forward to continuing to work with your organization. I would suggest we take maybe a five-minute break, and then we have a couple of items for the committee to deal with.

[10:13 a.m. The committee recessed.]

[10:20 a.m. The committee reconvened.]

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to call the committee back to order. We do have a couple of matters that have been brought forward by Mr. Chataway. Mr. Chataway, if you want to deal with the issue with Mrs. MacDonald first.

MR. CHATAWAY: I guess long story short, of course, Mrs. MacDonald, the history - I've never met her but I've talked to her on the phone, and her daughter is a constituent of Chester-St. Margaret's, at least I have met her - basically, her husband was the late Lance Corporal John MacDonald, who would be 92 years old if he was living. Basically, he was, at the last, in the veterans hospital. He was in there for quite a bit of time anyway. She wants some assistance to keep her home up, basically to plow snow and just maintain her property. I certainly get the impression any assistance is better than no assistance. For whatever reason, her husband was in the veterans hospital for more than a certain amount of time so she is not eligible and it's very difficult for her and, of course, the attachment of the letters here shows this.

She has appealed to Veterans Affairs and they said, oh no, sorry, we can't change it at all, period, thank you very much, goodbye. Certainly I very much appreciate that the next time we meet we have a meeting to sit down with Veterans Affairs. They should have some sort of help for some of these people. She is the spouse. Certainly her husband was wounded during his war efforts and all that stuff and she should be given assistance of some kind.

Here's another alternative because I have asked in the same regard for another constituent and over here at Provincial Command, they said, oh well, go to the individual Legions because they don't have a fund to do that. Basically, we all know that the 119 Legions have a very tough time to keep up their expenses and not give them more expenses, but I think the federal government should certainly re-look at this.

I would make a motion, if you don't mind, that Veterans Affairs Canada review the case of Mrs. Rosella MacDonald to see if there is any possible assistance for her. She's 85 years old. It isn't going to be a long-term debt forever and ever but it would be very nice if they would look at it and whatever. I make that motion, if it's all right, Mr. Chairman.

MR. LANGILLE: Discussion?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Discussion, sure. Mr. Langille.

MR. LANGILLE: Was this the lady who was in the paper here a while ago?

MR. CHATAWAY: Not that I know of.

MR. LANGILLE: Anyway, I would support maybe some investigation by this committee into looking into the aspect of helping her but this is a Veterans Affairs Canada . . .

MR. CHATAWAY: Obligation, you would think.

MR. LANGILLE: Certainly, I don't know if it falls under their mandate but it would be an obligation. I don't know their criteria when it comes to removing snow for widows of veterans but maybe we could ascertain that and a certain individual constituency level concern, which I guess would be a concern for other Nova Scotians, but maybe we could support by a letter. This is just something I'm throwing out, this is the first I've heard of this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could make a suggestion. I'm reluctant for us, as a committee, to be getting into individual constituents but I do believe all Parties have expressed concern about the Veterans Independence Program; more importantly, the cut-off date that has been established of September 1990. I have a lady in my riding, Joyce Carter, who many of you will have received letters from and have seen her letters in the paper, while she is in receipt of benefits - her husband, Mr. Carter, only passed away three or four years ago - she has certainly been a strong advocate for those who have been left without getting the benefits, such as Mrs. MacDonald in this case.

So if I could make a suggestion, I think maybe the committee's letter might first be to ask for what the justification is for that date being implemented. Second of all, that if there is full support of the committee, that we would encourage the federal government to change this date to better reflect the - I don't think they have to go back to 1940 because, as Mr. Chataway has indicated, many of the widows, unfortunately, due to reality, are getting up in age. So I don't think it's a matter of moving that date too far back before you would certainly address all of the widows involved. So I think two parts would be my suggestion. Number one, asking for what the justification was for that date and number two, calling upon the federal government to change that date to make sure that all the widows who should qualify do fall under this program.

I should point out for the members' own information that prior to the change by the federal government, once a veteran passed away, the widow only had one year, 12 months following his passing, to continue to have these benefits. Due to some of the pressure put on, the federal government said, well, okay, we will continue the benefits for the life of the widow if the veteran passed away in or after September 1990. So in all due respect, there has been quite a significant move by the federal government to at least bring in as many as they have compared to what it was. Certainly I think all of us would agree that it is upsetting that there are some widows that are left behind.

If it's agreed, that is what I would suggest would be the structure of our letter, and a copy will be sent to all members and we will send it to the minister. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Darlene, there was a resolution introduced by the Speaker of the House on this issue of the Veterans Independence Program which received the unanimous support of the House. We may want to even include a copy of that resolution with our correspondence to the minister to show there is all-Party support and also, Mr. Chataway, you can send a copy to Mrs. MacDonald just indicating that we have expressed concern over that.

MR. CHATAWAY: Good recommendation. Thank you very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chataway, you have another matter you would like us to look at.

MR. CHATAWAY: Well, this is probably a bit naive because I'm getting some letters, oh we should be changing Remembrance Day and all this stuff. The Minister of Justice, of course, had issued this press release and I think you all have a copy of it regarding that. Basically, I think it's been expressed even in the presentations and everybody has known that more and more people on Remembrance Day are going out specifically for the purpose of going to a Remembrance Day service and things like this. So I think there is far more good than bad out of the present way we observe Remembrance Day and if there were going to be any vast changes and stuff like this, I would certainly feel far more comfortable if we had various people supporting the changes if we are going to change things. Any comment? Maybe I'm naive, but if we change things dramatically, we have to be very careful of it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gosse, you had . . .

MR. GOSSE: I'm just going to clarify the point of September 1990 for the committee. Why that date is where it's at is because that's when the program was started. There was no program before that so the VIP was started in September 1990. So that is why that date is in there because there was no program before that for helping veterans. So that's why that date is September 1990.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. Thank you for that clarification.

Any discussion on Mr. Chataway's second point?

MR. LANGILLE: I'm not sure what you want on this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm glad it's not only me.

MR. CHATAWAY: I've had requests. In Bridgewater, various Legions - not all the Legions - met and they said do we have to make this a full-time day for everybody in Nova Scotia to have Remembrance Day, period. They want to change things dramatically. So it would be a dramatic change. It has not been further pushed ahead, but are we going to change anything? If we are going to change anything, I would like to know about it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If I can clarify a little bit, Mr. Chataway, one of my colleagues who is no longer a member, Don Downe, had brought in legislation back around . . .

MR. LANGILLE: Resolution.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It came in as a resolution, yes, and I believe there was a bill following that, because of some indications that he had been given, that veterans would like to see Remembrance Day as a full statutory holiday. That resolution did not have the support of the government at the time. The issue arose again when I tabled a bill since the last election where we are again calling upon the government to make Remembrance Day a full statutory holiday. At first Provincial Command indicated that they did not support that only to clarify afterwards that they did support having it changed to a full statutory holiday.

[10:30 a.m.]

Where we now stand, Mr. Chataway, there is a bill under my name before the House to make this change and as you well know, under our system, what we required to get that bill through is for your government to call the bill and indicate its support. My suggestion to you, I guess, would be to speak to your House Leader and to the Premier. Certainly, I think we have indicated our support, I'm not sure if the . . .

MR. LANGILLE: It wasn't unanimous.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you mean in our caucus?

MR. LANGILLE: No, in mine. I'm not in favour of it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Our caucus indicated its support and I believe the NDP caucus indicated its support. So I guess where we stand, Mr. Chataway, is we are waiting for your caucus to indicate its support of that.

MR. CHATAWAY: I think to further your cause, you should make sure that this is brought up nationally so that Remembrance Day in Nova Scotia is not going to be different than the Remembrance Day in Quebec, or the Remembrance Day in Saskatchewan and it is all the same across the country. Right now, from what I understand, Remembrance Day is November 11^th but there are various laws and they're all different to a point. I really think the people in our Party would be much more supportive if it was a national thing that everybody agreed with. Even in Nova Scotia, it is not felt to change it dramatically.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chataway, just on that, for those members who have looked into this, in fact, almost every province has a different system one way or the other. We've heard discussions today of how Nova Scotia has been a leader in addressing issues of veterans and how our province has the only committee dealing with veterans affairs legislated through the Legislature. I guess the question becomes, in this case, whether we want to be followers or if we want to lead by example.

The issue has been raised and I don't know what the wish is of the committee members, if they wish to make a motion to ask the government to call the legislation. If such a motion is to be put in place, we can certainly do that as a committee and ask for the government to bring forward the legislation on either the bill that is currently before the House or a new bill. I don't think it really matters, so I leave it to any committee members who wish to make a motion in that regard.

MR. LANGILLE: I don't know the problem here, everybody wants a statutory holiday. We have a Remembrance Day Act in Nova Scotia and it is a holiday. I don't know where we're really going with this because we have great legislation. I'm very concerned about this and the reason I'm concerned is when you say a statutory holiday - we're just getting a resurgence back to the cenotaphs now and if it falls on a Friday, we have a long weekend. If it falls on a Saturday, then they want it off on a Monday.

Remembrance Day is a time for remembrance and it has to fall on that day. I'm just having a hard time because I love our Act, I think it's a great Act. I know what happened and why it was brought in there in the first place, and if the truth be known it was when we were doing the licence plates up for the Provincial Command, which we were getting good press on and I think maybe you thought the government was getting good press, not just the Legion members. That is the day it was brought in and that is the day it was scribbled out on the floor of the Command with Don Downe on his knee, writing it out and it was brought in that afternoon as a resolution, and that's why.

To my observation, people don't even know we have the Remembrance Day Act, and I've researched this and I'm a regular member of the Legion. I know my branch certainly doesn't want it and I know that Truro branch certainly doesn't want it but it was through the cracks, you had the president here who didn't even know it was passed, from that Provincial Command. I'm not knocking anybody, I'm just surprised it is being brought up today. Anyway, that is all I have to say.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just before I recognize Mr. Wilson, I guess, Mr. Langille, the only thing I would add to that is the fact that Provincial Command has indicated their support and has indicated it is something they would like to see. It's not just a matter of our caucus or the NDP caucus, I think those who we would look to for direction on this for their support have indicated their support and we've got the correspondence that was sent to this committee indicating that, so I would just point that out.

Mr. Wilson.

MR. DAVID WILSON (Sackville-Cobequid): I think it is going to be a little while before we're back in session and we'll definitely have some more meetings with the Veterans Affairs Committee. I think before we make any decisions today, maybe a recommendation would be to again get in contact with Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command and find out if this is

on a high priority list for them and ensure we have the right message. It has gone back and forth over the last year or so, so maybe that's just a recommendation, that we try to get an answer again from the Command, to see where this is on their priority list. I know it is controversial throughout the province, but I think this committee really needs to make a commitment to this, with the full support of the Legion Command. Before finding out definitely that this is high priority on their list of things they want to see, I think it may be the most appropriate way to take action.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's completely up to the committee how they wish to proceed. We probably will be having the Legion in again in the New Year on that, so we can certainly get clarification from them. Again, I do remind members there is correspondence from them indicating their request that that be done but if it's the will of the committee to wait again until they arrive, I certainly have no problems with that.

That being said, we did make a request at our organizational meeting to have Veterans Affairs Canada appear before us. They have provided us with two possible dates, either December 16^th or January 20^th of next year. I'm curious as to what the wish is of the committee members as to what date we should ask them to appear before us.

MR. LANGILLE: January 20^th, Christmas is a busy time, especially at that time. But having said that, if I may, I'm certainly interested for them to come in because as MLAs, and a lot of veterans, we have concerns from time to time, in fact, quite a few of them, especially in drugs, benefits and things like that. We need a package, we need to discuss some of these with them. I think it will be great to bring them in in January.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure, and I can tell you the last time they were here, I think, was very informative because members got the opportunity to ask individual questions about their own constituents. I do thank Veterans Affairs Canada because they did provide responses to pretty much every issue raised and I think they understand that that is why we're asking them to come back in. I think we specifically indicated some interest around the VIP program, that they provide us with a bit more clarification as to who qualifies, and that we have a better understanding of that.

Mr. Gosse indicated where that starting date has come from and I would be interested in knowing, for example, how many widows are not covered under this, how many are left out, such as Mrs. MacDonald, how many other Mrs. MacDonalds are out there, I guess, would be interesting for us to find out. I would encourage members to speak with their caucuses and any issues that their individual caucus members might have that they would like raised, here's your opportunity. So we would have them for two hours and it is a chance for all of us to raise those issues.

I think I'm hearing January 20^th as the preferred date. So, other than there being any other business, I would move that January 20^th be the next date that we meet with Veterans Affairs Canada and I would wish to extend a very safe and happy holiday season to all members, Darlene and all staff who join us each week.

We remain adjourned until January 20^th.

[The committee adjourned at 10:41 a.m.]